FORCING 1(1)K residents to pay more tax would be immoral, according to the Treasury Minister.
In an e-mail to all States Members, Senator Terry Le Sueur released figures of the amount of tax paid by some of the wealthiest people in Jersey after facing criticism of the system in the States this week. There are currently 149 high-net-worth immigrants in the Island but despite there being more of them now than in 2004, they are paying less tax overall.
Senator Le Sueur said that 1(1)K residents paid £8 million tax in 2006 compared to £10.7 million in 2004 but warned that to change the conditions of their residencies would place the States on ‘dangerous ground, legally as well as morally’ if they tried to ‘unpick’ arrangements.
But Deputy Geoff Southern, who raised the issue in the States, said at the time that he was shocked by the figures and accused 1(1)K residents of ‘not paying their way’.
Article posted on 12th September, 2008 - 2.55pm
36 Article Comments
Whatever you say Terry you wouldnt want to rock the boat and your pension by ensuring your mates stick to the agreements on the tax they are meant to be paying. You make me sick.
Report abuse
Dear Senator Le Sueur,
Surely if it is immoral to increase taxes to the 1(1)K residents because of their “residency conditions”, then:-
Surely, it is also immoral to pull the carpet out from under the feet of the average tax payer by changing the conditions of the tax system to the 20 means 20 system.
If we are having to struggle to cope with 20:20 and ITIS to fill then “Black Hole”, then why shouldn’t the burden be shared upwards also to the 1(1)K residents.
At the other end of the system, we have seen disabled people have their “mobility benefit given for life” stripped away – where are the morals here then??
Since when did our current politicians have any concience over “MORALS”, certainly not when it comes to the average Jersey resident.
“TWO TIER SOCIETY” once again spring straight to mind.
Report abuse
FORCING 1(1)K residents to pay more tax would be immoral, according to the Treasury Minister.
He needs to go and learn how to be diplomatic! How about forcing the public to pay GST! Forcing us to pay more tax on the 20 means 20 tax system! Forcing us to pay for all the mistakes the States has made over the last four years! Forcing us to support the finance industry while the local retailers and hotels are struggling to cope! And how would it be illegal to request more tax off the rich?
I can go on and on! This guy has just angered me with this answer.
Report abuse
Sheriff, sorry Senator Le Suer…
If you take from the rich and give to the poor, you are seen as a visionary, benevolent and kind.
If the rich are getting richer because less is being taken from them and THEN take from the poor to give to the rich, making them even richer, then what does that make you, your policies and your so called morality?
Being generous of spirit, lets called it flawed. Being blunt, it shows you to be living in a moral vacuum far removed from the suffering of ordinary people.
Social disasters such as starving children and urban decay are not the sole preserve of inner cities in the UK or other places. Jersey can see all of these community wrecking situations looming on the horizon and only a government with a strong moral compass in conjuction with a clear fiscal map can steer a course through these rocky, stormy seas.
Report abuse
morals and LeSueur two words you cannot use together, we all know these people thrive on tax avoidance , its the very reason they are here in the first place.
Report abuse
Actually what IS immoral is that you have screwed the working class people and expect them to pay for your mistakes!!!
Report abuse
Morality is not a word in Mr Le Sueur’s dictionary! This is a joke what makes any human better then another (its certainly not money). We are all human at the end of the day….
Immorality is – not being paid sickness benefit because you missed one payment over 20 years of hard graft paying all the time but once.
Immorality is – paying GST on essential nutritious foods for our kids.
Immorality is – not being able to work for your money because your better off living on benefits and still scraping by.
Report abuse
Oh I wish he had the courage to stand down and put himself up for re-election.
He knows he would be out of politics (and therefore the next Chief Minister) if he put himself up for the public vote.
He is quickly becoming the most detested man on the rock; except amongst his millionaire friends that is.
Come on Terry, show us some moral fibre. If you are so confident in your position, stand for re-election.
Report abuse
Can someone tell me what you supposedly gain from letting these rich people in? Sorry, but I just don’t get it, you should only be letting people in who will have a job and will therefore be properly taxed. The rich will be importing their goods from elsewhere so your shops won’t benefit enough to justify their residency here.
Also, I have noticed that some of your rich people pay even less attention to the laws and regulations than your average bod, I have witnessed one brazenly (and regularly) park his 4×4 across TWO disability parking bays. It shows just how much regard these rich people have for the States, clearly they consider themselves above the rules!
Report abuse
Morality, much cited in Jersey when ‘other people’ do thing that disturb the status quo but always, always, always ignored when it means that more money can be garnered away in our greedy little Island. Where was Le Sueur and his morals when dodgy African dictators were using Jersey to hide the money they were stealing from their own people? Or when Enron were setting up shell companies here to hide their employees pension money? If the 1(1)ks come here with a commitment to paying tax at our rate (and so benefitting enormously from their residency) then surely it is ‘immoral’ for them to then seek to evade their commitments to us? or is Jersey a club run for the rich, by the rich? I think States members had better avoid the M word until they have remove the log from their own eyes.
Report abuse
And this is the man who wants to become our chief minister!! God forbid.
Report abuse
Just like to say that I agree with “CJ” and “Terry Renouf”. Le Sueur should never have been our “Finance Minister” and should put himself farward for the elections. Let the island vote on how he has performed as a “politician”.
Report abuse
Leah – quite simply, they pay a heap load more tax than anyone else. Quite good really.
Report abuse
I always thought Terry Le Sueur stated that 20% means 20% was supposed to apply to all Jersey residents. The 1.1ks would still be considerably better off than in most other jurisdictions, whilst contributing their fair share to the Island economy along with ordinary folk at all levels of income, so what is so unfair about asking them for a proportionately similar contribution. It certainly is anything but immoral to make that demand. What is immoral is to expect the hard working man in the street to contribute a larger proportion of his income to support the Island’s infrastructure, when the 1.1k imports pay a lesser proportion year on year.
Prior to the last Senatorial Elections, I challenged our current chief minister to stand for re-election so he may have gained the mandate of the people to take the top job. He declined my challenge both directly in correspondence, and at the polling booth. If Mr Le Sueur, you are so confident that you are correct in your policies, and that you have the general public’s backing to receive promotion to Chief Minister, I CHALLENGE YOU TOO to stand for re-election. Failure to do so will be immoral, as prior to the last elections, you stated that you had no interest in the position of Chief Minister.
Report abuse
Actually quite a few of them do not pay a heap load more tax than anyone else.
I reckon the average tax take per 1(1)K resident is about 54K.
So I reckon a pretty well off lawyer or such like is actually paying more than the average 1(1)K and a heap more than a 1(1)K that has struck a particularly good deal with the tax department.
Report abuse
It is immoral to be ”working poor”. To be taxed the same tax rate as the millionaire. By grafting 40h each week I am not better off then people who live off the benefits.
Report abuse
Senator Le Sueur has used an unfortunate choice of word to try and deflect this criticism. What shows through all of this is the immoral [yes that word] and legally dubious “deals” which are struck with wealthy immigrants. These people should pay the same rate of tax as everyone else. If the Senator is concerned at the implication of revisiting existing deals, he should declare an immediate review of any new cases nad he should take advice on the existing cases. That would be the professional thing to do. One suspects that it will not happen. This gentleman sees himself as the next chief minister.
Report abuse
That’s fine GB but apparently not as much as they should be paying (and can afford). Remember that in many cases of great wealth the moneytrail can usually be traced right back to you and me buying something that they have greatly OVERpriced, why should more of that money not go back into the system to benefit all of us. In fact it’s time these people were reminded of exactly where their money came from as without the public many rich people would be dirt poor.
They basically rip people off and we reward them for it, not exactly right is it?
Yeah, it’s not the case with all the rich (some inherited their money) but it is the case with a lot of them.
Report abuse
Your States responsibility should be, first and foremost, to those that were born and brought up here. I’m not even from here and I can see that your system is failing those that have paid their tax here for decades, contributed to the community and lived their lives in a law-abiding manner in the hope that their children can go on to do the same. Their kids can no longer afford to, how fair is that?
Report abuse
GB – no they don’t, or have you missed the whole point of the article? They do a deal with the Tax authorities and pay what a tiny percentage of their true liability. It stinks and that’s not good, really.
Report abuse
They pay an average of £59,000 a year.
To say that they should pay on the same basis as the rest of us is a ridiculous idea… the whole point of the scheme is to attract high tax payers to the Island. Its not about wahts fair or unfair. Its a simple fact that if we taxed them harder they’d just go somewhere else and we’d lose millions as a result.
Given that the states spend more than £100k a day on income support, I think we could do with more of these people. They don’t cost the Island anything, they don’t make use of the benefits system, or rely on our health care, or even take up the limited housing stock. All they do is spend some time in their nice house and contribute to the coffers… something that is plainly for our benefit.
Report abuse
Why on earth should a newcomer supercede the tax laws what on earth is going on?? If they only pay a certain amount because of an agreement (or golden handshake) that means that us middleclass end up paying more in the long run in taxes and we can ill afford to!! Ridiculous!!! Play the game fairly or go back to where you came from!! Oh yes sorry they wouldnt allow you to abuse the system where you come from in the same way they do here! Or put your hand in your pockets and contribute to things like the battle of flowers, etc etc Jersey people have a hard enough time getting enjoyment out of the island as it is!!
Report abuse
Terry, Terry, Terry, you really don’t do yourself any favours do you!! Or any other decent islander in most cases!!! It’s us taxpayers that pay your wages, let’s see now… we have a consumer law does that mean we can disagree with how our tax money is spent??? Am sure that we must have some rights!!! seeing as we pay your wages, don’t bite from the hand that feeds…
Report abuse
“To say that they should pay on the same basis as the rest of us is a ridiculous idea”
Why is it ridiculous? The only thing that is ridiculous is creating a two (and in reality a three) – tier system, affirming the belief that many of the rich already hold that they are in fact better than the rest of us.
And of course there is the matter of their complete disregard for the law. Apparently parking regulations etc (basically any rules and regulations that you will incur a fine for breaking) are only for the working class. The rich can afford the fines easily and so can happily ignore any rules that they want to.
It’s about time we introduced a 3-strikes and you do community service rule, this is the only way to get the rich to obey the same rules and regulations as the rest of us. In fact a non-financial punishment is the only way to fairly enforce the rules. Either that or you have to start fining people a percentage of their wealth?
And yes, they might have private healthcare, but that means nothing if they have a medical emergency, your taxes will pay for their hospital care.
Report abuse
Under the 20 means 20 system, people earning good salaries in the island are handing over 20% of their income to the tax man.
And they are paying in to pensions and paying school fees etc on top.
Meanwhile 1(1)K residents are paying as little as 3% of their income in tax.
No wonder they can spend some time in their nice house and not rely on the health system!
Report abuse
“…would place the States on ‘dangerous ground, legally as well as morally’ if they tried to ‘unpick’ arrangements.”
I notice that the UK are trying to ‘unpick’ the reciprocal healthcare arrangments.
Tell us Terry, are the UK “on dangerous ground, legally as well as morally”? No, what is happening is that the Chief Ministers Dept are ‘in talks’ with the UK gov.
Why can’t you have ‘talks’ with the 1(1)k’s?
Report abuse
GB – £59K is pitiful, frankly it’s an insult. These people come to Jersey on the basis of contributing a set amount per annum – £250K isn’t it? – and then are allowed to wheedle their way out of it in a way that no-one else is.You can see from the other comments here that it leaves people feeling resentful and ripped off. Because they have been. And all this tosh about ‘trickle down’ was discredited years ago, along with the rest of monetarist philosophy which was so popular once and seems to be dying a slow lingering death in some of the darker corners of Jersey. What about the costs of having them here? Effect on property prices for instance? I welcome 1(1)Ks that pay their way but the other cheapskates should go somewhere else.
Report abuse
…. and if we taxed them harder we’d make more money out of fewer of the little darlings. How does that sound? Music to my ears I can tell you.
Report abuse
GB, your point is nearly valid, echoing that of the UK government in relation to a fee for non-doms.
However, my view is this: stuff them. So what if they go elsewhere? £10m ain’t that much, 50 years worth of our rainy day fund.
It’d create more opportunity for others who ARE prepared to play by the rules and pay their way.
Maybe a capped level, but £59k average is paltrey. And being less than 4 years ago whilst the rest of us are paying more is wrong.
Sadly we don’t have party politics – this one issue alone would win the popular vote by a mile. (And there are several more like this!)
Report abuse
The bizarre thing is that Terry le Sueur is going on about not upsetting the 1(1)K’s who contribute £8 million to the economy while elsewhere in the forest Frank Walker is unveiling spending plans of £720 million for next year.
The 1(1)K’s pay just over 1% of the total tax take of the island!
The fact is that if they all upped and left in a body the States would just find the money elsewhere.
On the other hand they could start trying to save money, the million or so spent on blocking up the Bel Royal end of Victoria Avenue springs to mind for a start.
Report abuse
You people should get real.
My last weekly pay slip was over £1,000 and my net pay was only just over £700.
Report abuse
From the Reflect On Jersey website:
“With effect from 1st January 2005, 1(1)K individuals new to the island are taxed on their Jersey source income at 20%. The first £1,000,000 of non-Jersey source income is also taxed at 20%, but the next £500,000 is taxed at 10% and non- Jersey source income above the £1.5 million level is taxed at just 1%.”
In contrast: “will pay tax at a standard rate of just 20% on their worldwide income”
So after a certain amount the rich get taxed just 1% of any income source outwith Jersey, where the rest of us get taxed 20% regardless of where the income comes from.
Fair? Hardly!
Report abuse
Whilst I agree that an average £54,OOO of tax is at the lower end of the acceptable range, please do not pretend that the 1.1K residents do not contribute significantly to the Island. They are, as a rule, exceptionally generous to many Jersey Charities and causes and often give significantly more to the Island than just tax.
I cannot quite understand Bruce Labey’s reference to house prices as the average 1.1K house would always be significantly out of the reach of the normal Jersey person unless you have been hiding your savings again Bruce.
Leah, your quote above states that 1.1K would pay 1% tax after they have paid £225K on their first £1.5m of income. Given the average tax payer in Jersey pays significantly less than £4K of tax, maybe they are paying their fair share.
Report abuse
Leah – reading into that – most people will never reach the barrier that 1(1)Ks have to get to in order to receive the reduced tax rate – so in real terms compared to your income tax rate and mine they are paying 20% just like everyone else. If any of them does go over the million mark then we are getting £200,000 plus per year from them – that’s not a figure to be sniffed at and we would have yet another “black hole” occuring if we threw them all out which would mean raised taxes again for the rest of us!!
Report abuse
Morally bankrupt. Those with the most money should pay the most tax. It takes the mickey out of the rest of us. I suggest no one pays tax until everyone pays the same percentage in real terms. No one is better than anyone else except when it comes to income tax it seems!
Report abuse
The trouble is, as anyone will well know, one can complain about the situation until blue in the face but it never makes a blind bit of difference. If this sounds defeatist, there it is!
Report abuse