From David Le Quesne, chief executive, Randalls Vautier Ltd.
WHILE I have no wish for a ‘trial by media’ I feel that I have to write following your news article (JEP, 20 December) under the headline ‘Under-age drinkers add to parish’s pub woes’.
Although this article related to one specific outlet, it would seem that your reporter Dolores Cowburn decided to include her version of comments that I am supposed to have made in respect of St Aubin’s Wine Bar, which has not had any issues with under-age drinking.
In order to put the matter straight, at no time have I referred to ‘uptight Islanders’ nor requested that people stop complaining about pub-goers enjoying themselves.
Indeed a similar incorrect interpretation was made in a letter from Vlada Mayo, where she stated that I seemed to be saying ‘let drinkers do whatever they want to do because they are so much enjoying themselves’.
What I did say was, that due to the smoking ban being introduced, this has forced smokers out on to the street, where they are committing no offence, unless smoking and talking is now illegal. It would be appreciated if those living nearby could show some tolerance to these people who are pursuing the perfectly legal act of smoking outside.
With regard to St Aubin’s Wine Bar, the current manageress, Bernadette Dunne, has been there for the past 11 years. It was her decision to stop the once-weekly karaoke evening. This was before the meeting with parish officials, following which we acted upon a request in a letter from anonymous residents to remove the memorial bench from outside of the wine bar.
One of the reasons for its removal was ‘that people coming out of nightclubs regularly sit on the bench and talk’. I am not aware of any nightclubs in St Aubin and as the Wine Bar closes at 11.30 pm I find it strange that people make the journey from town after closing at 2.30 am to sit on a bench in the High Street.
Nevertheless, we feel we have responded to residents’ requests and in addition issued a letter to all customers outlining the residents’ concerns, and asked that all customers be respectful of neighbours by keeping their voices and noise to a minimum when outside smoking.
Since we have taken the aforementioned measures I am not aware of any further complaints.
It is interesting to hear from the statistics produced last week that the introduction of this ban has apparently not resulted in less cigarettes being smoked. During the consultation leading up to the introduction of the ban, I along with others in the licensed trade campaigned for the exemption of those public houses that were land-locked to be allowed, at their discretion, smoking inside.
I suggested that signage outside would make all those aware who may enter that smoking was allowed so it would be their choice to enter or not, but this suggestion was thrown out. The problems that we now appear to have were foreseen, but as with most reasonable ideas they were never considered.
As a non-smoker I consider it a shame that it now seems that smokers are considered to be the pariahs of society, condemned to the furtive fag huddled in a corner outside.
So perhaps in this time of goodwill spare a thought for that person out in the cold taking the daily fix of nicotine, that by so doing they are adding to the States’ coffers (excuse the pun) by paying a large proportion of tax for their enjoyment.
Clare Street,
St Helier.
Article posted on 24th December, 2008 - 2.59pm
104 Article Comments
Smoking should be banned in ALL public areas.
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Ventilation/air filtration should have been, one of the ways forward.
Air quality testing by Johns Hopkins University, the American Cancer Society, a Minnesota Environmental Health Department, and various researchers whose testing and report was peer reviewed and published in the esteemed British Medical Journal……prove that secondhand smoke is 2.6 - 25,000 times SAFER than occupational (OSHA) workplace regulations:
But prohibitionists want it all, they will never be happy, I think they like the control and jumped up ego it gives them. We are not far off prohibition and it did not work the first time around.
The smoking rates appear to go up when the antis come to town, so does unemployment. Look to the UK to see how many pubs,clubs ect have gone under since this vindictive ban was introduced.
Smoke-haters were never banned from investing their own money into smoke-free venues.
Youth smoking continues to rise
The number of young people smoking in Scotland has returned to a level last seen nearly 10 years ago, according to a report by health officials.
Now they want to ban vending machines and “hide our cigarettes” under the counter - but as the link above shows, smoking rates were going down, even, with the vending machines and cigarettes on display. But the antis will have to blame everything else, apart from themselves. The misinformation gets more unbelievable daily.
Millions have been used to try and make us social pariahs.
Pigs are afforded better shelter in fields, than smokers, so who is that protecting.
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People go to bars to congregate and chat with their freinds. Now the ban lobbyists want people to do it outside. Don’t blame the people, blame the ban lobbyists who never go to bars but want to control them. Here in Chicago, the neighbors and local cops prefer the small neighborhood bars that ignore the ban. After a year, those bars have had NO complaints from customers, workers or neighbors. All the complaints have been concerning bars that comply.
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There is no proof whatsoever that SHS kills or is even likely to! This gov’t could have easily given licensees the choice-smoking or non smoking and then all the non smokers could have just about filled one pub whilst smokers would most certainly have filled their allotted pubs! 68% of smokers are regular drinkers whereas only approximately 5-7% of non smokers are regular drinkers! So how do you expect the pubs to continue in existence?
2,544 pubs have shut, 83 Bingo Halls & 82 WMC’s. 4 million people don’t go to the pubs anymore licensees have been bankrupted 32 couples rendered homeless because of closures so please don’t sit in judgement and declare that smokers are worthless and shouldn’t be allowed in public.
Think of the toxic filth spewing out of your exhaust pipe every time you start the car-then you’ll find a true killer!
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Smokers should be given back indoor areas in all public buildings.
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No one wants to see smoking rates increase, not even smokers, but what we have seen is a condemnation of smoking by the self-appointed ‘righteous’.
anyone with even half a measure of commonsense must realize the tactics used will never work. Smoking rates were gouing down through tolerant social pressures and education.
Bans create forbidden fruits and persecution of a minority is not the act of a democracy.
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agree with you wholeheartedly mandy,ash and the likes have turned smokers into social lepers,whith the persecusing of using a legal product,the nazis did this with tobacco in the 3o,s and look what happened after remember the saying “first they came for the jewish”etc
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Smoking inside pubs reduce litter and noise outside pubs. Separate rooms or areas with ventilation in pubs would keep everybody happy.
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Sadly social fascists always want to control other peoples lives.
Ban fox hunting, ban smoking, ban none use of bicycle helmets, ban anyone who disagrees!
We live amongst such petty minded individuals, where personal liberty is viewed as okay provided ‘i’ agree, and as a result we will ALL have our liberties eroded.
Only when we realise that liberty is precious and choose to stand up for our neighbours rights and interest, even if we personally DON’T agree, will we have a truly free and inclusive society.
P.S. I’m a none smoker, i don’t hunt foxes ( although i’ve witnessed the slaughter of 121 chickens by one fox ), i seldom cycle, and want to ban banners however as that would make me a hypocrite, i won’t.
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Bob, I wonder who these people are that never go to bars but want to control them. I would have loved to have spent a relaxed evening in a bar with my friends but couldn’t because smoke gives me a stinking headache (never mind the foul smell meaning that even if I got in at 3am I had to wash my clothes and hair immediately). It was completely offensive that for years non-smokers could not set foot inside a pub without being forced to be covered in smoke!
As for smokers now being outside, no-one really objects to that but unfortunately they do also tend to be drunk and too stupid to not take up the entire pavement. I would like to be able to walk along the pavement thanks, why should I be forced out onto the road when I’m not doing any harm to anyone?
Yes there are perfectly polite intelligent smokers out there (like my uncle and grandfather were) who won’t even smoke inside their own house and understand that it is their own filthy habit and it is not fair to force it upon others, but the fact is that many of those outside pubs are drunk and stupid and the average person on the street should not have to be subjected to them!
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its people like leah who say they can now go in pubs without having their clothes etc stinking of smoke are the type that will ensure that smokers are dregs of society.why should non-smokers have all it their way when about a third of people smoke,they should allow at least a third of pubs for smokers.nobody stopped you opening your own non-smoking pubs if they were going to be so popular.the fact is that smokers spent the most money who went to pubs and now they are staying home and are closing up and down the uk as well as clubs and bingo halls.its funny how no-one complained before the ban,we were told more peoplewould use pubs etc when ban came in the exact opposite has happened so your drinking till 3 in the morning be careful as their coming for you next it has been proved that drinking does much more harm than smoking the smell coming out of their pores for days after a night out made me heave when i worked in hospital the violence was something else about time they stopped all these boozers from blighting our lives
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Bella, thanks for that… you’ve just proved how inconsiderate and childish a lot of smokers are. It is people like that who make smokers the ‘dregs of society’. I know plenty of smokers who are considerate and think of others, they have no issue with the ban and love that I can now join them at the pub for a drink. It’s hardly the end of the world having to pop outside for a few minutes to have your cigarette, comparative to health issues it’s a tiny price to pay.
If you think it is the end of the world and you need a cigarette so badly you can’t now go to the pub of an evening, maybe you ought to ask yourself why. It is pretty sad if you need a cigarette THAT badly! I would hate to have that kind of reliance on a substance (and no I don’t get drunk, never have, never will).
As a musician my husband had no option but to play in bars as he started his career… why should he get lung cancer because you have a stupid addiction? I know loads of people that couldn’t go into bars before that now do and you will find if you look hard enough that actually the industry overall has not been affected by the ban (I know people in the industry who will attest to that). Pubs and clubs have always changed hands regularly so lots of openings and closings take place. The industry has however been affected by the credit crunch, as all industries have!
Smokers are some of the most selfish, inconsiderate people I have ever met. Nobody is stopping them smoking on the street or in their own houses or at friends’ houses, but it is quite right that public places should be for everyone, not just smokers (as they were previously). My being in a public place in no way adversely affects you or your health so why on earth should you be allowed to affect my health!
Public places are now exactly that, public! And about time.
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Why on earth do you people think only smokers want to go to pubs? What stupidity.
Non-smokers previously couldn’t go… plenty of them go now. You can’t take the pre-ban smoker to non-smoker ratio and apply it after the ban as lots of non-smokers that didn’t go to pubs before now do (including me and my friends).
Non-smokers have every right to enjoy a drink at a pub and thankfully now we can. Smokers wish now to ban us from pubs again while claiming that we are the ones trying to ban people from places… hilarious.
Pot and kettle people!
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On the smoking issue…..I find the sight of smokers, outside on the street huddled against the cold, more cheering than Christmas decorations at this time of year. Get over yourselves, kick the habit and free up the massive revenue required to care for you during later life, all because you were too thick-skinned, weak-minded and pig-headed to quit when you could. I have yet to encounter an ex-smoker who doesn’t wish they had given up earlier - now there’s a bit of honest regret that you would do well to heed. It’s not about freedom of choice, it’s about consideration and respect. Respect for yourself and your health.
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Where are all the non-smokers that were going to replace the smokers? As delia Smith says ‘where are you’? If the non-smokers had replaced the smokers, it would have prevented the two and half thousand pubs from closure. Some people enjoy smoking, some enjoy drinking and some enjoy eating. Alcohol is a more dangerous drug and obesity now costs the NHS more than smoking and drinking. People should be allowed to live their lives as they wish and not be dictated to by Government.
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leah for your information you are misinformed if you think smoking is worse than drinking for your health you just have to ask anyone who works in a&e to see which is the worse,never get aggro from smokers like they do drinkers and it has never been proved any cancers is solely caused from smoking there are many factors just do a search and you will find cancer rates have soared in the last hunded years while smoking rates are way down and as for second hand smoke a complete myth if it was that dangerous it would be banned altogether. pubs in uk have been shutting at a rate of 6 a day since ban nothing to do with credit crunch.so you think smokers are selfish look no further than yourself wanting every pub non-smoking in case you want to go in it,and another thing i don,t smoke never have but i don,t mind people that do (there are many more dirty habits than smoking)3 friends of mine (all smokers)will no longer go to pubs as they will not go outside to smoke as they are oaps and will not be treated like the great unclean
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As a lover of smoking, I am appalled at this labour government and it’s unelected pm for allowing, let alone pursuing this new predudice against smokers. Instead of inciting hatred from people like Leonard HMG should be finding a compromise to this ridiculous situation. This political hot potatao is not going to be allowed to go cold. Goodbye Nu Labour and good riddance.
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The big problem with all of this argument is this.
Smokers are simply looking for the hospitality for which they pay. Pubs which allow smoking will get that custom. Pubs which do not allow smoking will get the non smokers custom. Really easy answer that, Until we factor in the anti smoking bigot that thinks quite selfishly that every pub should be NS just in case they fancy a quick J20 or a half of mineral water once a week. Well wise up because your perverse and distorted way of looking at business does not work. Pubs need drinkers, and most regular (daily) drinkers are smokers or tolerant non smokers, so when the drinkers decide to forego the pleasure of being wet, cold and ridiculed outside a building which now stinks of urine, BO, cheap scent and cheap air fresheners, the pubs lose vast amounts of money and go bust. Hey Presto, no pubs and no choice for anyone including the bigots and hundreds of thousands of people with no job. What a clever little government we have, and all of it based on lies, biased opinion and junk science by charity organisations which are funded massively by public money and the big pharmacies who have a vested interest in so called healthy living.
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smokelover i entirely agree with everything you say.the anti-smokers are trying to dominate this site like they do on every other site to do with smoking makes you wonder what their agenda really is as they have got what they wanted so why do they keep rubbing smokers noses in it?we need more people like you,as not every non smoker is happy with the ban just the smug anti,who think the world revolves around them,even want outside space now,this is 1 example of me and 2 friends having coffee one was smoking when 2 women came and sat down with their drinks and started waving their hands about and false coughing my frieds wanted to leave as it made them feel uncomfortable,i told them not to we were here first.this is just 1 monster this government has created.the outside air belongs to all of us,we are all born free and this labour government should remember they are our servants not our masters,in other words stop dictating and trying to control the public.jersey adopts every bad law the uk brings in it would be better if they coppied germany where they overturned most of the ban it makes you wonder if we really did win the last war as every freedom we had is being eroded bit by bit
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Just a point for all of you morons that happen to think The pub is a public space. It is not. You attend by invitation of the licensee who can refuse entry or eject anyone they choose without reason. It is a private space and as such the licensee should set his own rules not the nanny state.
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Fagheads are, generally, a very selfish lot and the comments above illustrate this.
Smoking is not a natural activity, it is un-natural (any fagheads want to argue against that?). Nevertheless this ‘life choice’ is adopted by millions who may consider it their hobby, passion or crutch - whatever.
It is indeed your legal right to smoke, I wouldn’t argue with that, but with every right comes a responsibility to engage in your chosen activity without affecting the rights of others.
I have the right to go into licensed premises and enjoy an evening out without waking up the next morning with a headache, sore eyes and stinking. Fagheads, particularly those commenting on here, seem to be suggesting that I shouldn’t have that right.
As for you Smoke Lover, your description of a licensed premise in Jersey is somewhat disingenuous by saying “It is a private space and as such the licensee should set his own rules not the nanny state.”
The word ‘Licensee’ is the clue here. He/she operates under a licence. The terms of his licence are what he has to abide to in order to operate. By your description he/she should be allowed to introduce cock-fighting should he/she wish.
As for the pavement congregation of fagheads blocking the pathways:- Standing on a pavement with your friends inhaling poison is a right you may enjoy. However, it is a right wich can be taken away if not engaged in responsibly.
The pavement is a public space and not the sole domain of the ousted fagheads. It is also my right to be able to walk along it unimpeded by smokers There is a law against blocking the pavement:-
The Policing of Roads (Jersey) Regulations 1959 states at Article 2(1)(h)
No person shall, on any road cause any obstruction to free passage. (a pavement is a road under the definition)
I suggest that anyone forced to walk into the road because the pavement is completely blocked by selfish fagheads- which I had to do last week with a pushchair after trying to negotiate my way past Fridays in the early evening - call the police and demand that they deal with the problem.
p.s. I make no apologies for referring to fagheads as such. I make no distiction between the addiction of one disgusting poison from another.
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Smoking is a choice - many of you started because you thought it was cool - a way to rebel at school - what a complete joke! It’s your choice to smoke, it’s your choice to damage your bodies - thankfully it’s now no longer your choice to harm everybody around you with your selfishness!
I quit smoking 3 years ago because I didn’t want to smoke around my younger syblings - I also quit drinking when I realised how selfish I was when i was drunk - sure I still have a glass of wine on special occasions but the difference between me and smokers is that i’m considerate to those around me.
smoking is not your god given right - it’s your addiction, get over it or shut it and smoke outside without hassling others.
Finally - there is nothing worse than an ex smoker - its weird really that as a non smoker I found no problem with my parents smoking but as an ex smoker i can smell it a mile away and it makes me want to vomit. I asked the doctor about this and he said its because your body recognises it as poison and wants you to get as far away from it as possible.
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Oh and another thing Bella… the reason it isn’t banned altogether is the same reason alcohol isn’t banned altogether. Tax revenue would be shot down as would the public support for the government. You can’t ban something that people are dependant on… even if it is bad for them.
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Smokers saying ‘the choice should be up to the landlord whether or not their pub should be smoking or not’ don’t realise that it is no different from the smoker themselves making the choice of whether to go to the pub or not. Unfortunately for them the current law means it is they who have to make the choice and not the landlord.
Where is the proof that pubs are closing purely because of the smoking ban? Pub attendance and revenues have been declining for years and was a trend that started way before the ban. People’s attitudes to pubs are changing and it is the family pubs that have diversified into food etc that are surviving. The popular pubs in Jersey are still as busy as they were before the ban. Yes some have closed in the last 24 months but look at which ones – ones that haven’t really been busy since the late 70’s when pub going was very fashionable.
The smoker comments posted here also contradict themselves somewhat. Most of them state that pubs are closing because smokers don’t want to go to the pub anymore and yet they themselves comment how they still frequent pubs. Extrapolate these posts to the entire smoking/drinking population would suggest that most smokers still go to the pub!
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Smoking is a choice, going out drinking is a choice, there is no choice when it comes to smoking indoors whilst out drinking. Where would you have the smokers go exactly?
I find it incredulous that the smokers outside Fridays didn’t move when asked to by Bella and her pushchair.
I encounter pavements being blocked by schoolkids all the time, should I call the police and demand that they deal with it?
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being a smoker up until some 6 months ago I can appreciate both sides of the arguments in the posts above, I personally think that the smoking ban was a good thing, it dramatically reduced the amount that I smoked on a night out which will always be a good thing, however I did feel angry at times when in the summer I would retired outside for my ‘fix’ to the designated area (usually the alfresco area) and was made to feel as if I was the hell spawn.
To put a slightly different spin on the argument, if the ‘establishments’ that we frequent had decent air conditioning or provisioning for smokers / non-smokers we would not be in this situation at all, non smokers could start to go out again and see the light of day, smokers would no longer be blocking roads and the police would not be required to move them. Everyone would have been happy
These improvements could have been paid for with all the extra revenue from the non smokers who are now frequenting the pubs and the revenue retained by having the smokers in the pubs drinking instead of being outside (2 cigs an hour x 10 mins each x 6 hours = 2 hour lost drinking time). Perhaps the states could offer a grant as they too are making money on the duty on alcohol and cigarettes.
Lets be honest, if either smoking or alcohol were discovered now they would be banned so fast you wouldn’t even have time to let the head on your pint rest while you lit up. This is all about perception and social acceptance, drugs in the swinging sixties were the norm, now they are not acceptable, smoking was the norm, now it is not, drinking is the norm, once the binge drinking crew have finished with it, in the future it too will be socially unacceptable.
We should all be more understanding on both sides and remember that as many things in this world it is usual a small minority that bring a majority of a social group down.
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#21 bambi. Cock fighting is illegal, but smoking is not.
#22 Lulu. ‘I can smell it a mile away’. Typical anti-smoker exaggerations.
Simple answer smoking and non-smoking pubs with good ventilation, then everybody is happy and less smokers blocking the pavement.
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lulu you hit it on the head if they banned it altogether they would lose all the taxes they generate and you would have to pay to go into hospital and for other service as they make millions out of smokers every year,its a known fact smokers on average pay for themselves and 5 other patients for treatment so why all the hatred against them? that is what government has done,drumming up intolerance and hatred with lies as they continue their relentless propeganda which common sense will tell you most of this are lies made up by those with vested interest.they hit a gold mine when they invented passive smoking as they knew gullible people wood fall for this scam and hate smokers,and every year after the ban they come up with the same lies how successful the ban is.if losing thousands of jobs in uk and other places 2000 pubs closed in last 18 months is their idea as being successful and not 1 death proved from smoking then god help us all.there,s none so blind as they that cannot see
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Why is it illegal for a delivery van driver, who works solely alone, to smoke in his van?
But 2 adults in a 4×4 BMW with 3 young children on the back seats and the windows closed are allowed to smoke!!
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I am SICK of walking through town at lunch time and getting stuck behind these selfish people. I am not fake coughing, I actually find it hard to breath around smoke!!! Also, the smell gets stuck in your hair and clothes and you smell of stale smoke all day - you guys may enjoy it, but I can think of nothing worse… Smoking is an unhealthy, disgusting habit - stop trying to justify it!! Please think of others!!!
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Chas
I think you will find that cock fighting and smoking is both illegal in pubs.
My point was to ‘Smoke Lover’ who thinks that as a pub “is a private space and as such the licensee should set his own rules not the nanny state.”
Darren
The law about free passage on pavements relates to school kids, hoodies and smokers alike. Feel free to phone the police if they do not respond to your polite request.
And I personally don’t care where fagheads have to go to suck poisonous fumes, as long as they don’t interfer with the rights of those who don’t want to share it with them.
The ironic thing here is that I have seen fagheads complain at the sight of a woman breast feeding in public!
As I said - fagheads are generally a selfish bunch.
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Actually Bella passive smoking does present a risk to non smokers. The so called evidence you’ve based your statement on was clearly the result of research endorsed by biased smoking companies. No truly independent health organisation will agree with your statement.
OK so yes smokers do cover themselves and may be a little more in terms of treatment costs through tax revenue but so what? That is an incredibly selfish attitude and like saying it’s ok for a smoker to give a non smoker lung disease because it won’t cost the tax payer anything.
The fact is you should not be able to put other people’s health at risk for what is a non essential (disgusting) activity. Making smokers smoke in outside areas mitigates this risk.
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I feel that smokers like the rest of us should show courtesy to others but you CANNOT say that non smokers are any better at standing on streets and blocking peoples’ pathways than smokers are - indeed if you wish to be really pedantic I would say that clusters of screeching schoolgirls are as rude - my path was blocked by several lots of these in the run up to Christmas. Should they be reprimanded also?? None of them were smoking or drinking of course - not in public anyway!
I think everyone has their underclothing in a real twist here. Yes smoking is unhealthy, along with a whole host of other needs, but its so easy to stand up there and cry out holier than thou rubbish if you’ve never experienced a need for such.
p.s. I have never smoked at all, but if I had, I believe I would be struggling to give it up. It cannot be easy. Also I know one or two people who absolutely love smoking and have no wish to give it up!
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no joker passive smoking does not do any damage as it was prooved some time age when it was tested by real scientists not junk scientist(or you might call them jobsworth)they came up with the results after testing tobacco smoke that the risk was so small it was,nt worth bothering about,coffee has more poisons than tobacco and many other foods smoked pork bacon and lots more,but as usual the media keeps silent on this as they don,t want to upset the apple cart
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Bella what planet are you on? I studied medicine originally and I have nurses in my family. You certainly don’t have to edcuate me on medical matters, but if you want to continue it really does give me a giggle.
I didn’t say that drinking is not a health problem… I said it’s not a health problem to me! YOUR drinking would not adversely affect my health, your smoking would. Fair? Not remotely.
Honestly, you smokers really need to get the chip off your shoulders. Me living my life doesn’t affect your health so why should you living your life be allowed to affect mine? That is what happened prior to the ban.
Maybe you feel slightly embarrassed by the fact that you caved to peer pressure at some point and started the filthy habit when many of us were strong enough and intelligent enough to say no? Maybe you feel even more pathetic at getting addicted? Maybe you’re jealous of those of us that don’t have addictive personalities? Maybe you’re feeling slightly silly about spending ridiculous amounts of money on something that you didn’t have to get addicted to in the first place?
Either way you clearly think that smokers should have more rights than non-smokers… well what a load of trash. Now we all have equal rights to visit public places (in case you didn’t know, public means available to everyone!) Finally it is as it should have been all along. Frankly you really need to learn that everybody has rights, not just smokers!
As for pubs shutting down… none of the good pubs in Scotland have shut down, the good ones are actually thriving, only the dirty old ones have… gee what a shame. Never mind that pubs have always changed hands regularly and yes the credit crunch has hit them (my sister works in the drinks industry). But you’ll believe whatever pro-smoking propoganda you want to believe because you don’t want to admit that you’re just intentionally giving yourselves cancer and are a drain on our health service. And don’t anyone start on the taxes you pay because if you didn’t smoke there wouldn’t be the taxes but there wouldn’t be the drain on the health service either!
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And Bella… bringing the Nazis into it? How hilarious, there isn’t any comparison at all but you keep trying to justify your habit to yourself in whatever way you can!
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Smoke lover, it’s very clear who the moron is here and it isn’t any of the ‘anti-smoking’ brigade.
Acutally, most of us are not anti-smoking… we are simply anti getting cancer because of your smoke and smelling absolutely hideous because of your smoke. I am not anti-smoking at all. If you are enough of an idiot to smoke then go for it, I don’t care but I will not have it affecting me. And rightly so.
Chip, shoulder, pot, kettle, you guys are totally hilarious.
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yes lear its very clear who the morons are the holier than thou anti-smoking brigade who think it is their god giving right to dictate to others their bias and bigotted views who rabbit on and on about other peoples choice of lifestile .and i do not smoke told you before i think your the 1 with chip on your shoulder with the way you rant about smokers and if you do a web search you will find the real reasons for ban and nothing to do with health and as everyone knows the nazis did bring in ban in 30,s hitler was a non smoking control freak and winston churchill a cigar smoker but i guess hitler must have been the better man
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I’m not anti-smoking itself, if you want to smoke go ahead. However, I must admit it’s nice being able to nip out for a quiet pint without bringing the stale smoke smell home with me. Sorry guys, but having recently visited Alderney, and the clouds of smoke that greeted me wherever I tried to find somewhere to eat, it made me realise how much better the pubs/restuarants are over here since the ban was introduced.
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Leah. What planet are you on? Nobody has ever proven to have died or even got lung cancer from passive smoking. If you can name one, then you would be the first to do so. Passive drinking injures and kills people on a daily basis. The Nazi were the first to introduce a smoking ban based on false science, in modern times.
Don’t you agree that smoking and non-smoking pubs would keep everybody happy?
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The smoking ban should be extended further, on a nice day in the summer, eating outside at a pub, nothing worse than stray smoke blowing on you.
The smoking ban should be extended to ban it where meals are served outside.
Smoking is disgusting, as is a smokers breath.
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Leah Loved all your posts especially the last three. Smokers really do have a huge chip on their shoulders, and grasp at straws by making totally erroneous “facts” to justify their addiction, I suspect the most vociferous ones are the older smokers who really wished they could stop or had never started in the first place, and when you point out to them that the money they have wasted could have gone a long way to buying a property instead of ruining their health.Here’s a few facts.!! it wasn’t Nulabour that just decided to ban smoking, it would have been banned whichever party was in power. The first city in the world to have a complete smoking ban in public places including bars was in San Luis California 1990 !! and the first country in the world to have a total ban was the republic of Ireland almost 5 years ago, at the time it caused outrage and claims that pubs and clubs would go out of business. Go to Ireland now and discover what a pleasure it is to go in these places and enjoy clean air and and the live music, and they are just as busy as ever, i couldn’t find any places that closed. There are 80 country,s now in the world that have smoking bans. The biggest myth perpetrated by the addicts is that their habit covers the treatment costs of 5 others as well as their own, well, a white paper released many years ago by the government of the day stated that the drain on the health service to treat smoking related deseases far outwayed the income generated by way of taxes on the vile substance. consequently we would be a wealthier nation if no one smoked. Now at 70 years of age i am sad that i have not had the pleasure of my Father, Mother or sister’s company for more than half of my life as they all died more than thirty years ago, from yes you’ve guessed it - lung cancer caused by smoking.
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Well said Syd.
Perhaps a proper study should be done in Jersey to compare the tax revenue received from fag junkies and the real cost to the health service as a result of smoking related ilnesses. (including the running costs of places like The Jersey Hospice in looking after fag ill patients)
If the second does indeed far outweigh the first - which I don’t doubt - the government should slap a far higher tax on death sticks so that they pay for themselves.
If you indulge yourself in dangerous activities on holiday you have to pay a higher rate of insurance. Why should it not be the same for fag junkies?
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Personally I cant see the problem with banning smoking it is a disgusting habit and its loss would be no real problem after a few grumpy months.
as for the tax loss this is a real issue and we can more than make this up by taxing junk and generally unhealthy food . for example increasing GST on snack foods such as crisps and sweets, burgers etc. there is no real reason for this rubbish to be eaten and I am sure people could be educated in the delights of munching on a carrot instead of a chocolate bar.
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and you can smell it a mile away
I smoked for 8 years and ive been a non smoker for 2 years now… my partner still smokes but not in the house and i can instantly tell when he’s home as as soon as the front door is opened i can smell it
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Bella and Chas - Remember Roy Castle? The non smoker who died from lung cancer. His lungs were full of tar from passive smoking he suffered when playing his trumpet in smoky music clubs most of his short life.
Bella – what? Real scientists commissioned by tobacco companies you mean! You’re far too gullible. Junk ones? You mean the independent ones and those working for a government that stands to loose £12bn p.a. in revenues if everyone quits? Also when you say ‘tobacco’ are you referring to the more natural type like Golden Virginia? Yes that has a lot less chemicals in it. Unfortunately for us most people smoke the pre-rolled cigarettes which are far more carcinogenic.
Furthermore studies have shown women who smoke even tiny amounts are less likely to conceive and more likely to miscarry, smokers suffer from illnesses far more often – especially respiratory ones, have a lower immune system, have increase cholesterol etc etc the list goes on. You think that will not also affect someone sitting next to a smoker?
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Firstly people, I am on here as someone who has lost very dear family members and a good friend purely to smoking, so you might want to get the chips off your shoulders and listen to some common sense for once. I have every right to hate smoking and to be angry that these people left me far too young because they couldn’t give up a filthy habit.
Chas, cancer is only one of many smoking diseases that kill, but I have no issue with smoking and non-smoking pubs.
Bella! Don’t comment on my posts when you clearly haven’t even read them, that is the height of moronic! I am not anti-smoking, I have stated that clearly. I don’t care if you smoke, but don’t do it in a public space where it will affect my health. And while pubs are private businesses, most ‘public spaces’ are public thank you very much!
Smokers… please for once consider your family and friends. If you die far too young because you smoked do you not think that is an unbelievably selfish act? And don’t kid yourself that it won’t happen to you, as two of my family members proved anyone who smokes could just drop dead tomorrow without any warning signs!
My dear uncle and grandfather both died far too young because of smoking. They had healthy diets, exercised plenty and never had health problems… that was until a massive heart attack killed them (even if it had happened in hospital they couldn’t have been rescusitated). There are no congenital heart conditions in our family, autopsies were carried out because of their ages and their deaths were fully attributed to smoking! A dear family friend also died from Emphysema and I know that while his wife and family loved him, they are struggling to deal with the fact that he knew the risks and yet he continued and ultimately ‘killed himself’. They can’t deal with the fact that smoking was more important to him than they were.
Is smoking really worth making kids suffer the very premature loss of a parent or grandparent? Personally I don’t think it is, and if someone dies purely due to smoking it can be very hard for their family to forgive them. Think on that next time you light up.
And again, don’t think that it couldn’t be you that drops dead tomorrow from smoking because it very well could be.
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You see the adverts on the television;
1) children copying the adults who are smoking
2) children (and others) passive smoking
3) clogging of the arteries
4) ‘you smoke, you stink’
and so on….
Not to mention the many ‘we can help you quit’ adverts.
Then there’s the words printed on the cigarette packets, soon to be pictures as well I believe..
Don’t you think that maybe they are trying to tell you something? Maybe real medical research is telling them that smoking is a bad thing???
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Bigot: A religious hypocrite; (also) a superstitious adherent of religion. A person considered to adhere unreasonably or obstinately to a particular religious belief, practice, etc. In extended use: a fanatical adherent or believer; a person characterized by obstinate, intolerant, or strongly partisan beliefs.
Don’t abuse such an offensive word just to try and scare people off from making their very valid point. None of the people advocating the smoking ban have been in any way bigotted… some of the smokers however are getting there! To not even read someone’s opinion but force your own on them is bigotted… some of you smokers are not even reading the other opinions before throwing vitriol at the writer!
Smoke Lover: So only smokers drink alcohol? Don’t make me laugh, all my friends and family drink and none of them smoke (the 3 that did died young from smoking).
People, I love driving cars fast… I like nothing better than doing almost 200mph in a Ferrari. Do I do it on public roads? No. Why? Because it’s against the law. Why? Because I could adversely affect someone else’s life by doing so. But nobody is stopping me from driving fast they are just stipulating that I can’t do it somewhere that I might kill or hurt someone else. If you are to be allowed to smoke in public places (and you still are actually, just OUTside) then I should be allowed to drive as fast as I can around Jersey.
And so it is with smoking. NO-ONE is stopping you from smoking so for goodness sakes get over yourselves, when will you stop with the incessant whining about how hard done by you are, if that’s the only ‘problem’ in your life then think yourselves blinking lucky! There is no prohibition people, and stop making out like the smoking ban is akin to racism or semitism, it isn’t and you make yourself a laughing stock by suggesting that it is, not only that you trivialise these very REAL problems.
You ARE allowed to smoke, deal with it.
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The smoking ban has happened, lots of people have lost their jobs all in the name of the self righteous.
You have banned smoking in pubs… now, what is it that is bothering you all now? All a smoker wants is to be left in peace to have a ciggy and a pint… past that, as a pariah of society, we don’t honestly care.
How about you pick on the pigeons and seagulls that seem to do more damage to everyones cars and are just as filthy and flea ridden as your average smoker… oh what was that? Pigeons can’t argue back! hahahaha
Look, lets face it. The non smokers are moaning again because it is the Christmas season and rather than spreading a little joy they spread the usual doom mongering misery that they normally save for really special occaisions. Most of the non smokers moaning are probably not the pub goers that some of us are and will only be going to the pub at this time of year because the rest of the office is going!!
I try and get into the pub at least once a day… how about you non smokers?? Ohh really… twice a year?! well you are all regulars then!
On a slight point of note telling me that I should really be giving up smoking.. well when I first started smoking it was actually advertised as a good thing by non other than the health service!
I am addicted, I like to smoke, I have no intention of giving up, I pay my taxes to take care of people in hospital from smoking related illnesses and I also have my own health plan which covers me for any illness… so I don’t take out of the already dwindling health care system.
So if I want to sit outside in the freezing cold, smoke a ciggy and have a chat.. then I will and no amount of moaning and grizzling about it is going to stop me from doing just that.
“Becareful what you wish for!” Next time it could be something that affects you, and who will be there to stand up for your rights?
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Boris, there wouldn’t necessarily be a tax loss relative to the cost of care required due to smoking. The thing is that costs for situations like those Joker pointed out (enabling people to conceive or investigating infertility etc) are not usually factored into the cost of smoking-related conditions.
There are conditions, not JUST illnesses, that the NHS spends a lot of money on where smoking has made the problem worse (if it hasn’t caused it altogether). People also forget that a lot of infertility (and especially a lot of miscarriages) are due to defective sperm… the male diet and male habits are far more important than is often stated. There is a charity in England that helps people who have unexplained infertility simply through adjusting their diet and life habits (smoking etc), they have a higher success rate than IVF and at NO cost to the NHS.
There are at least 20 very specifically smoking related illnesses that can kill (cancer gets the most press and we really need to emphasise the others now) but there are also conditions that can cause someone to need expensive medical assistance that can be made worse (if not being totally caused) by smoking!
None of this is factored into the ‘NHS costs due to smoking’ data.
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joker do you believe everything you read as gospil?roy castle was the only 1 that has been named as lung cancer due to passive smoking(self diagnosed himself)what about all the other trumpet players?the fact is they cannot name 1 person who died from smoke related cancer,only today it was on papers that meats of all types are causing lung and other cancers,there are a whole range of reasons.i,m not gullible as you seem to think i worked in hospital for many years and over the last 20 years i have seen many people young. and old with cancer who had never smoked or drunk even a few babies born with it and this never happened prior 1950,s so you can,t blame all cancers on smoking alone.the media have done a great job brainwashing folks.they spend million on tv and always advertizing their quit smoking products at the end.they would be better spending this money on cleaning their hospitals where many many people are dying . from all these germs relating to the filthy state of wards .less likely to conceive? you just have to look at the baby boom and pror to that when it was common to have 8,10,12 and more children(no protection then)and over 80% of people smoked then.just follow the money trail to find the truth,patches,gum etc and you will find what a lucridous business this is
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I’m a smoker. I didnt start to be cool or anything like that far from it. i was one of the few out of my friends at 18 that smoked. i did it because i did.
Personally the smoking ban inside pubs doesnt affect me really as i don’t going out anyway.
What i actually find more dangerous myself is the drunks. I drove down snow hill towards the tunnel past chambers on boxing day and nearly hit two idiots play fighting in the middle of the road.
I persoanlly think that alcohol is far worse of the two, but then im a smoker. However im a smoker that will go outside and halfway down the road when visiting someone who doesnt smoke (have to in my line of work), and also i dont smoke if there are people right behind me in town. As you all say, its my filthy habbit and i wouldnt want to be subjected to a druggies filthy habit so why subject someone to mine.
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Joker. It’s along time since I heard that one about Roy Castle. I believe that he smoked cigars in his earlier days and that his lung cancer was self diagnosed.
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jeez, the antis posting here are full of hatred. Not nice people. There’s something abnormal about them, isn’t there? Making mountains out of molehills etc..rabid even. Probably had smoke blown in their faces when they were kids. Fortunately they’re are a very small minority - most folks are fairly tolerant. That’s why this ban is unfair - the few rail roading the docile, tolerant majority. I don’t smoke, but this ban has ruined pubs and forced 1000’s out of business.
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All the Anti-Smokers seem to mention is ” the smell”, “I hate it”, ” My clothes stink” and ” I have to wash my hair”. Not a word about the true science that proves that Passive Smoking does NOT kill and never has. The ban is based on lies and nothing else.
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I think its pretty obvious that smoking is a habit that people are better off without - as is drinking alcohol and sticking your finger in a live socket - but the facts are that if you have got into a habit its hard to get out of it - the same people who have a go at smokers are the kind of people who also have a go at credit card users. As I said before - the term ‘holier than thou’ fits them perfectly.
God help us if the smoking bashers ever have to face a lessening of your own perfection!
And no - I’ve never smoked and never drunk alcohol, apart from the odd half glass of wine.
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It’s new years eve and i’m off to a smokeeasy for a good smoke and a good booze, so happy new year to all fellow smokers and tolerant non smokers. To the antis, lighten up and stop being so uptight and self righteous, you might just enjoy it for once. Bye.
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Bella, as one who is friendly with a number of jazz musicians I can see the disproportionate amount of them who died due to smoking related illnesses even though they didn’t smoke. I don’t need statistics to tell me because I saw it with my own eyes. Outwith the musician field people who didn’t smoke were less likely to die of smoking related illnesses! Now I wonder why that could be.
And for goodness sake stop suggesting that non-smokers are all ‘righteous’ we are simply glad to be able to go to pubs for once without coming away absolutely stinking (like smokers do). And yes, we do go to pubs and more than twice a year! As I have said before, NO-ONE is stopping ANYONE from smoking so just get over it folks!
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Chas, having met his wife and son I can ‘happily’ say that you are wrong on that one.
Sarah I don’t disagree with you at all on drunks, but smokers cannot use drunks as a defense, two wrongs don’t make a right.
Scientist… please quote your source for that one because nurses, doctors and the non-smokers that have died from smoking-related diseases will disagree with you.
Sue, you are right in the very first bit of what you say but the problem is that the more people that smoke the more people will start smoking. Do those of you who smoke REALLY want your kids to start smoking? Honestly? I highly doubt that anyone is stupid enough to actually think that smoking is really a good idea yet people defend it on here like it is. No-one is questioning that addictions are a tough thing to deal with but to defend an addiction is another matter altogether.
If you really want to smoke then at least be honest, admit it’s a stupid thing to do but state that you like it, are addicted and will continue to do it no matter what the health risks. It’s the lack of honesty that is worrying and causes those of us who have experience of purely smoking-caused deaths to pipe up to try and educate people who seem to be suggesting it does no harm whatsoever!
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Sarah. A smoker with common sense, courtsey and decency… thank you. How nice to hear from a smoker who actually considers other people. I was starting to get the impression that all smokers were selfish wasters.
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Leah. I said in his earlier days, probably before meeting his wife. Many have seen him.
Kenny Ball, Chris Barber and Acka Bilke to name a few, played in smoke filled jazz clubs for most of their lives. They are 80 years old plus and are still performing to this day.
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Exactly Chas- Roy Castle’s was probably caused by a variety of things- ultimately genetics included.
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Firstly to clarify my position - I’m not anti smoking, I don’t hate smoking per say, if people want to smoke fine, it’s a free country and less frightening than being confronted by a group of offensive drunks – hell I’ve been known to have the odd cigar myself on special occasions. However I’d rather not suffer someone else’s smoke either for my health or the fact it stinks. My real issues are two fold:
1)People say the smoking ban is closing pubs. The fact is pub going has been declining for the last two decades and is due to a number of more prominent factors such as change in people’s attitude and the fact that in UK supermarkets alcoholic drinks can be up to 10 times cheaper than their equivalent in the pubs. (See - a Tesco isn’t the answer to Jsy’s problems!)
2)The denial that smoking and passive smoking is not harmful; this really is self denial. Admittedly there are many variables to illnesses and I appreciate that and genetics is probably the most prominent. However there is a proven pattern between smoking and the state of someone’s health. Like I mentioned earlier – what’s the first thing a GP/doctor asks you when you report and illness… “do you smoke?” Separate studies have shown that most illnesses from the benign to the fatal are aggravated, if not caused, by smoking – the pattern is clear as it is with heavy drinking. Yes people were having 8-10 children 80 years ago but that was before the mass production of the pre-rolled cigarette which is far more harmful that tobacco in its pure state. So there are risks with everything such as the food you choose to eat etc. The fact that there are many does not mean smoking should be overlooked.
I’m a regular pub goer and for me and my friends the smokeless atmosphere is much more pleasant and welcoming and actually encourages me to go more often. Smokers need to appreciate they are now in the minority and their numbers will continue to decline. The smoking ban reflects this trend as the majority of non smokers would prefer not to experience the smell and the proven risks it presents to their health.
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Alcohol is a bigger menace to society than tobacco ever has been. As many as 75% of ALL crimes are fuelled by alcohol and over 500 people a year are killed by drunk driving.
The risks posed to an individual’s health by allowing people to smoke indoors are miniscule next to allowing people to drink in public, yet the latter is tolerated whilst the former is demonized beyond all recognition. Why?
I suspect the reason is simply this; more people drink. The same people who will support smoking bans and claim “if it saves one life it’s worth it” would probably fight tooth and nail not to have alcohol banned in public.
This is almost the dictionary definition of hypocrisy.
But here’s the kicker, without tolerance there can be no freedom. Once you set a precident it inevitably begins to spread. If the second hand effects of smoking cannot be tolerated then why should the second hand effects of alcohol be excluded.
Individual liberty comes with no assurances that the world will be exactly the way you want it, but it DOES empower you to change it to more of your liking. Or at least, one small corner of the world.
Smoking bans take power away from the individual and only those ignorant of history think that a government taking away power is a good thing.
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Before the smoking ban, about five pubs were closing each week. The first year of the smoking ban about thirty-five pubs closed each week. The smoking ban was and is the cause.
Whilst some pubs are doing well, the majority are suffering, because of the ban.
Smoking and non-smoking pubs is the common sense way forward.
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Leah #59
This would be what’s known as anecdotal evidence and let’s face it, probably a lie.
The reason I say that as the anti-smoking movement itself claimed that 95% of deaths due to second hand smoke were of people who lived with a smoker, the other 5% were supposedly due to workplace exposure.
This means to notice any blip amongst a specific group that group would have to number in thousands.
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Joker the smoking ban reflects an overreaching state in our lives. If there was demand for nonsmoking pubs more would have done so voluntarily. Leave the decision up to the owner.
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yes it is a lie one of 3 in the last decade about as credible as “global warming” weapons of mass destruction” “passive smoking” when are they going to stop lying to us? you can fool some of the people some of the time but you can,t fool all of the people all of the time
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Re:My point was that the law has forced smokers out onto the street
Fed up to the teeth, with the “nannying” attitude of the government and councils. Not to mention the Draconian, Spiteful and Divisive Smoking Ban!!! What a storm in a teacup about smoking and the non-existent danger of SHS - Anti-smokers(as opposed to neutral non-smokers)simply donot like the smell and therefore want it banned. How selfish! Live and let live I say!
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RTS, how dare you attribute bereavements that me and my friends have suffered to lies. Think what you like, smoking KILLS! Those are facts.
As I stated earlier it was not even just my jazz musician friends I lost to smoking but my Uncle AND Grandfather died PURELY due to smoking.
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It is very enlightening what excuses and almost irrelevant discussions smokers will move on to to ‘justify’ their habit.
As I said before, if you want to smoke for goodness sake just admit you’re addicted and enjoy it and will continue to smoke despite the fact that you are potentially shortening your own life. Stop dragging out all sorts of ridiculous excuses or focussing entirely away from the subject itself.
Smoking REALLY stinks… if you give up (as my Grampa did shortly before his death from smoking) you will realise just how badly you actually stink because of it. My grampa actually gave up because two weeks of not smoking due to flu was enough for him to accustomise to fresh air, then when he smelled his jackets that was it and he never smoked again.
If you work in medicine and see the lungs of some non-smokers you will realise the damage it can do to others. The fact that it doesn’t always do damage to others is not good enough… Plenty of people drive drunk without killing anyone yet that is illegal!
If someone can explain the difference between the two then fine but the fact that one can kill instantly and the other might take years to kill is again not good enough! They both can kill so should only be done in a place and circumstance where no-one else will be forced to be subjected to your own personal choice.
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BarneyBear, anyone reading these posts will see quite clearly that the smokers are the selfish ones.
I notice that many of the points I have made have been completely ignored, simply because the smokers actually have no comeback for them. One of those points is that no-one has banned smoking. No-one is stopping you from having your cigarette. Previously however, many non-smokers were effectively banned from going into pubs… now everyone can go into pubs. If you can’t deal with being outside for a few minutes then you really do have a major problem!
Tell me where the prohibition is and I’ll side with you but the fact is that there isn’t any! And there isn’t anyone ‘coming for the non-smokers’ like they did the Jews. Had my Gran not died just before Christmas I’m sure she would have been disgusted at the complete insensitivity and, frankly, complete nastiness of such comments. Grow up people and just admit you have a filthy habit that could be slowly (or quickly) killing you, and that it is selfish for your habit to be forced on others. My habits are not forced on you so why should yours be forced on me?
Also, I asked if any of you smokers would be happy for your kids to smoke. Another one ignored. Gee I wonder why!
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It’s also worth nothing that while in Ireland and Scotland pubs initially shut down more than previously, they rallied back. Many pubs I know of in Scotland became aware of how filthy they were once the smoking ceased and intentionally shut to refurbish. Also the smell of smoking absolutely does not disappear overnight but once it goes non-smokers are welcome back in.
I nad stopped going to pubs and didn’t go back until the ban had been in place for a bit but now I go regularly with friends.
Many Glasgow pubs are far more than surviving, they’re bursting at the seams every evening. Maybe the pubs that aren’t need to ask themselves why? The smoking ban is unlikely to be the answer, if it was then ALL would be struggling, maybe they need modernise. Pubs have always changed over time and the drinking culture has changed also. Pubs are now more attractive to women than before and that is because some have bothered to give themselves a more upmarket feel.
But it’s easier to blame the smoking ban I’m sure and simply ignore the pubs that aren’t struggling at all despite it!
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Leah the trendy bars do better as there is lesser of them plus their customer base has never been mainly working class which has a lot more smokers. A lot of their competition has been removed. Many people like the old-fashionned traditional pubs. And yes it is prohibition- the owner is forbidden by law from catering to a large segment of the population.
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71# Leah
Whilst I’ll always sympathise with bereavement I’m also quick to point out that experiencing it does not give you mystical powers.
Today, medical science is unable to attribute any specific death directly to smoking. The best it can do today is say that it’s PROBABLY due to smoking. If medical science can’t do it, what are the chances that you can do it?
But I’m not here to talk about smoking, the issue under dicsussion is passive smoking, and particularly your jazz muscian friends who are, according to you, dropping like flies due to it.
So come on Leah, tell us, how many jazz muscians do you know and how many have died due to smoking related illnesses.
73# Leah
Your point is feeble. Non smokers were always able to apply pressure on their local landlord to make their pub non-smoking. They chose not to. Also, why does your desire for a non-smoking venue require ALL pubs to be non-smoking?
74# Leah
More anecdotal evidence? Some pubs you know closed for reburbishment and then re-opnened so you assume the trend is mirrored across the country?
I personally know of three in Scotland that have closed, been bulldozed and turned into flats. One of which was owned by my brother-in-law’s father. Should I make the same leap as you? Because I know of some that have been bulldozed I should assume almost all pubs are currently been bulldozed.
At the last count there were over 200 fewer pubs in Scotland than there were pre-ban (with 40% of landlords stating their taking were down since the ban), in Ireland that figure is over 1000. In England it’s stampeding towards 3000. In England the closure rate is almost unprecedented.
Further, your claim that if the smoking ban was to blame then ALL pubs would be struggling is nonesence. A reduction in regular pub goers of say, 15% doesn’t mean every pub is going to see a 15% downturn in trade. Don’t you think pubs whose clientelle was 50% smokers would be worse hit than one with only 10% of regulars being smokers?
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It is normally impossible to tell, from autopsy, whether the deceased was or was not a smoker. Upon resection, the lungs are always clear, unless the deceased lived in a large city where there was significant industrial pollution. In that event, carbon deposits may be found, but these are unrelated to smoking. So the “brown lungs” myth is exactly that: a myth
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Leah. You are in a minority. It was said that MMllions of non-smokers would replace the smokers when the ban came in, but few have. As Delia Smith would say ‘come on where are you’
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Leah, I have two friends now who are dying from cancer, both from non-smoking households. One in her early 60s, (breast cancer, now in her bones. Her Mother died in her 60s from the same thing, she was given 6 weeks to live 8 weeks ago. Neighbour (friend) given 6 months 23 months ago, lung and liver ( they do not know which started first) now gone to his bones. HGv driver and loves his motorbikes, his doctor mentioned diesal.
Apart from the two people mentioned above, I do not know of any others. Do you live in a high radon area? As has been said before, chemicals are in nearly everything we eat or drink. It is the dose that does the poison as they say.
Twenty Most Common Chemicals in Thirty-one Fragrance Products [based on a] 1991 EPA Study
1. ACETONE (in: cologne, dishwashing liquid and detergent, nail enamel remover)
On EPA, RCRA, CERCLA Hazardous Waste lists. “Inhalation can cause dryness of the mouth and throat; dizziness, nausea, incoordination, slurred speech, drowsiness, and, in severe exposures, coma.” “Acts primarily as a central nervous system (CNS) depressant.”
2. BENZALDEHYDE (in: perfume, cologne, hairspray, laundry bleach, deodorants, detergent, vaseline lotion, shaving cream, shampoo, bar soap, dishwasher detergent)
Narcotic. Sensitizer. “Local anesthetic, CNS depressant”… “irritation to the mouth, throat, eyes, skin, lungs, and GI tract, causing nausea and abdominal pain.” “May cause kidney damage.” “Do not use with contact lenses.”
More in there, now shall we just ban it all? People are forced to be around others who were perfumes and fragrances. Tolerance is a wonderful thing.
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I think people are focussing too heavily on cancer (something that people have probably always died from but simply wasn’t as easily identifiable millenia ago)and forgetting that there are many other conditions that smoking causes that DO kill. You can get your questionable info from all the pro-smoking websites you want but why not try getting it from an independent source instead.
Smoking kills… anyone want to argue with that go and study medicine for 5 years and then practice it and instead of believing statistics (which are only as reliable as the person who paid for the research!) look with your own eyes and see what is happening around you. That’s what I do… you can criticise it if you want but it’s more reliable than statistics ultimately paid for by cigarette manufacturers
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Carlos, there aren’t less trendy pubs in Glasgow! ‘Trendy’ pubs (and they’re not particularly trendy, just nice pubs really) are the majority actually. Again, they are doing well, so the ones that aren’t should ask genuinely why they are not. It’s too easy to attribute it to the ban and apparently too hard to sit back and look at yourself and your business and start doing the hard work to get busy again!
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Mandyv, I’m not sure what your point is really. Nobody is attributing Breast cancer to smoking, well I’m certainly not!
I am at high risk of breast cancer but that is a different matter entirely to lung cancer. Lung cancer often is rightly attributed to smoking (no, not always of course). My husband’s Grandfather was killed by lung cancer and it was put down to smoking.
It’s too easy for smokers to focus on cancer and harder for them to explain conditions like emphysema and sudden (and young) heart attacks that are not congenital… as was the cause of two of my family deaths, heart attacks caused by smoking! Fact! This is among the other 20 odd conditions that smoking causes.
Smokers can focus on cancer all they want but it is not the major smoking killer.
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Chas, as someone with common sense would say ‘where are these smokers that are no longer going to pubs?’ I see plenty of them at pubs, don’t you?
And this one didn’t get authorised for some reason but I did state that my understanding of the situation in Scotland was coming straight from a sister who is an accountant within the pub and club industry and whose pubs and clubs have seen no problem whatsoever.
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People, it takes time to replace years of habit… young non-smokers that are still at primary school today when they hit their 20s will no doubt head out to pubs the way smokers always have, there will be no reason for them to not.
Non-smokers have got used to the fact that they can’t go to pubs and have filled that part of their life with something else. Can you blame them?
They will come slowly but surely and the next generation to us won’t know any different so their pub numbers (or lack thereof) cannot possibly be blamed on ‘the ban’.
Can people please see the bigger picture here? You’re focussing on just one small area and refusing to accept that there are many other issues going on here!
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You from Glasgow I right?? Anyway depends which part of the city. Tell me how can a landlocked venue compete with a place with plenty of space to create a heated outdoor area?
Also someone is saying you should check out a website called “uksmokingbanforum.co.uk” where the effects of the smoking ban can be more deeply discussed.
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agreed mandy anyone who like me brought up in 40,s will agree there was no asthma, cancer in young people unheard of,this trend continued through 50,s 60,s until sprays and traffic increased,we all walked to school 4 miles each day( home each day for lunch)in rain wind &snow apart from the odd cold were a healthy bunch 40 to 50 in each class and nearly always a full attendance,so instead of blaming smokers for the bad health of folk they should be looking at traffic fumes along with sprays all high noxious poisons we are breahing every time we step out of the door,in fact they should ban non-essential traffic from town unless you live there, pollute your own parish or catch a bus why should i have to go home stinking like a garage
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Well, Leah seems to be holding court on this discussion. Remarkable really, considering that she doesn’t appear to have the slightest inkling of real pub culture.
This person is patently an anti smoker, whose obsessive dislike of anything tobacco predisposes any consideration for those mourning the demise of the traditional pub.
As a non smoker, my social life has all but disappeared. Most pubs are no longer fit for purpose. I live in the country, I can see what’s happening to ordinary pubs. Places that were the focus of community interaction for 100’s of years are now, at best, struggling to survive. I don’t want gastro pubcos with hoards of kids causing mayhem, where you can’t linger at the bar chatting, where you’re given a wooden spoon with a table number, where once you’ve dined there is little else to do other than surrender your table and leave.
Mostly, I ate at home before I visited the pub to find sanctuary away from minors and the likes of Leah. I used pubs for ‘normal’ things - chat, darts, pool etc). These places are not full of clean living non smokers - they’re mostly empty.
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SKY NEWS
A Portuguese woman believed to have been the world’s oldest person has died at the age of 115.
Maria de Jesus was the oldest person alive on record
Born on September 10 1893, Maria de Jesus was widowed at 57, outlived three of her six children, had 11 grandchildren and 16 great-grandchildren.
She died on Friday morning in an ambulance near the central Portuguese town of Tomar.
The Guinness Book of World Records listed her as the world’s oldest person, a title which now falls to 114-year-old American Gertrude Baines.
On Friday, she ate breakfast normally, but then was taken to hospital because of a swelling, her daughter Maria Madalena said.
“I regret the death of this lady, she really was the sweetest person,” town councilor Ivo Santos said in Tomar, central Portugal.
There are now only 82 women and nine men verified as being 110 or older, according to gerontologist Dr Stephen Coles of the University of California, Los Angeles.
Dr Coles said they appear to share one trait that might account for their longevity - they come from families whose members are long-lived.
He said: “Whether they drink alcohol or not, it doesn’t matter. Whether they smoke cigarettes or not doesn’t seem to matter.
“The thing that does seem to matter is that they chose their parents wisely.”
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meanwhile wetherspoon are selling beer 99p a pint trying to get business back,and they were the first company to bring in ban before it was even introduced but quickly reversed to allow smoking after losing too much money,the health lot are not amused with them encouraging people to binge drink. how very dare they? when it is the next in line for the chop,soon they will be introducing a smart card for drinkers with x amount to drink a week and no more quickly followed by the salad dodgers.you don,t have to be einstein (another dirty smoker)to work this out,people are sleepwalking their way slowly into a orwellian nightmare and will wake up when it is too late
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May be the case where you are 1955 but here in Jersey that isn’t happening. I’ve been frequenting some of the ‘local’ town pubs for more than 10 years here and whilst numbers have fallen slightly I think you’ll find that’s more due to the massive hike in alcohol prices over the last 5 years and the fact the punters are slowly being killed off by their bad habits. If smokers say they love their pint and the social atmosphere then the smoking ban won’t stop them going much like a 10p hike on the cost of a litre of fuel won’t stop you driving. Those that have stopped going to the pubs weren’t proper pub goers in the first place.
Carlos – may be the pubs in Glasgow are being bulldozed because their owners realise that with the boom in property prices (as was) they can make loads more easy and instant cash than they could in 20 years of a very popular and profitable hard working pub trade.
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1955 Thank you for proving my point. You can’t come up with any defense for smoking so you launch a personal attack on someone you desperately want to assume would like to ban smoking (even though she doesn’t and has stated that clearly, lol). Not all non-smokers assume that others should be banned from smoking you know, we just don’t want your smoke in our lungs, and that is perfectly reasonable frankly.
Thankfully a couple of the smokers on here are selfless enough to just say ‘look, it’s my habit, it shouldn’t be foisted on others’. Why can’t you be like that?
Also, there is no genetic link between dislike of children, love for playing darts and being a smoker. And yes, at my pub back home I do play darts and there are no kids there. At New Year someone even got given a month’s ban for starting a punch up…oooooh, but this information will probably be awfully confusing for you and destroy your entire concept of the universe!
I guess ‘real pub culture’ is actually only whatever pub culture you enjoy well YOU don’t have the monopoly on what pub culture is okay. You are only 1 among millions that go to pubs regularly.
And why do people insist on trying to come back at me without even reading my posts first? I do not care if you smoke, I really don’t (despite the smokers’ desperate longing to think that I do). You talking rubbish about me isn’t fooling anyone, only I can give MY opinion on the matter, you can’t assume to ‘override’ my own opinions, only I have that liberty! Honestly. Your smoking has nothing to do with me as long as you’re not blowing the smoke into my lungs or the lungs of people I love.
Yes I can (and do) feel cheated that people I knew and loved killed themselves young by smoking instead of hanging around to see their family grow up, wouldnt you? But as I don’t care a jot about you I’m quite happy for you to smoke away and take your chances.
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Chas, I can see how desperate you are to make some kind of point with this. But people have died due to smoking and the fact that some are extremely lucky doesn’t change that fact. Maybe there is actually some genetic anomaly with these people that should be investigated.
Some people are immune to HIV, how many of us are going to go out and intentionally try and catch it just to find out if we’re one of them?
I would have loved for my Uncle and Grampa to live to 114 despite smoking, but their smoking killed them, as it has and does others. And their genetics were also for living close to 100. None of their parents and grandparents died before 90.
If you want to take your chance that you’ll be one of the ‘lucky ones’ go ahead and I wish you luck, but at least acknolwedge that it is chance!
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Actually 1955, having pondered your comment a bit more I actually sympathise with you.
What your point has stated (and actually it’s nothing to do with the smoking ban) is that times change! They always have, they always will.
To keep ‘old men’s pubs’ alive would have required the pub to be attracting in the young ones while the oldest ones inevitably died off. However, the generation of the computer want more than the generation of the whip and peerie and they start going to ‘trendy’ clubs while still at school. How then are they going to move over to frequenting ‘old man’s pubs’ (there aren’t as many hot, scantily-clad women in those)?
None of us like moving with the times if it is what WE like that dies, but that’s just life unfortunately. Life moves on and ‘old men’s pubs’ have mostly had their day, and it’s not because of the smoking ban!
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chas a french woman lived to 121 years of age loved a drink smoked for most of her life gave up about 4 years before she died not sure of her name jeanne clament or calmont.maybe her name is among the millions of people smoking has killed,she might have lived another few years if only she had,nt took up the habit
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‘Your smoking has nothing to do with me as long as you’re not blowing the smoke into my lungs or the lungs of people I love’.
Leah. Do you also object to vehicles blowing smoke into your lungs or the lungs of people you love.
You live in Scotland. ASH in Scotland, also exaggerate. What a coincidence.
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I walk to work and back and walk to my friends and back and drive as little as possible! I will happily be the first to get an electric or hydrogen car when they are easily available and affordable. After all electric cars would be fine in Jersey, although not in the UK (not as they currently are anyway).
You come out with all this brown lungs stuff that my doctor friends and my training will happily disagree with and you mention ‘millions’ also… and YOU accuse ME of exaggerating. Excellent! That has made my night.
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And Chas, where did you get the idea that I live in Scotland… again, clearly not reading posts before responding!
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Leah, just seen post 93.
‘To keep ‘old men’s pubs’ alive would have required the pub to be attracting in the young ones while the oldest ones inevitably died off. However, the generation of the computer want more than the generation of the whip and peerie and they start going to ‘trendy’ clubs while still at school. How then are they going to move over to frequenting ‘old man’s pubs’ (there aren’t as many hot, scantily-clad women in those)?’
Oh, of course! We have to make way for schoolchildren. We can’t fight progress, can we? Thanks for putting me right. I apologise, you’ve summed it up in a nutshell. Silly old me, I guess the ‘old man’s (sic) pub is no longer good enough.
Old men, who needs them…particularly the smoking variety. Hang on, there aren’t any. Didn’t they all go to an early grave?
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I love pubs, I love drinking and smoking together at the same time, and preferably with folks of like mind and I demand and will fight for a place to go for hospitality. I don’t give a fig whether non smokers like it or not, I could not care less whether it is ‘bad for me’ I care even less if it causes my demise because you see, I treat life as a journey. It’s not the destination that matters, It is the trip that matters. I have had a go at very many things in my 55 years, sport, driving fast cars, drugs, lots of promiscuous sex, stupid and dangerous things that would make your hair curl, a bit of religion, and a pub and club musician for 40 years in dingy smelly smoky little dives as well as great venues. In between all of that I have worked full time, paid my dues and demands and taken zero out of the NHS. I am asthmatic and pay for every prescription. I have had 16 weeks of sick leave in the last 38 years and 7 weeks of that was with a broken wrist. I have seen death very many times in my friends and family but I know of only three people under 60 who were smokers, 2 of which indulged in serious drugs and alcohol as well, the third died in a car accident in his 20’s. For the others who died under 60, two, (mother and daughter aged 56) never smoked. Two friends, heart attack victims, never smoked. One football player aged 29 never smoked as far as I know.
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A
Smoke Lover perhaps finds that smoking actually eases his asthma (I’m assuming it’s a man’s lifestyle description!). I have met many smokers that attest to this. It certainly doesn’t cause it, although the anti smokers don’t dwell on that fact. And isn’t it strange that the incidence of asthma has increased, whilst smoking rates have decreased? The figures indicate an almost a perfect correlation. Can’t possibly be related to environmental pollution, though. But, lets imagine that traffic pollution maybe does play a part, particularly diesel exhaust. If so, what other respiratory (and other illnesses) is it associated with? No, I’m talking nonsense of course. It’s all those dirty smokers on the streets causing the problem.
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Smoke lover I think you have missed the point of our argument a little. Yes go and smoke I don’t care. Who knows you may live until 100. Yes life’s a journey and we should all live it to the max etc. If I want to ride a motorbike at 170mph on a track or jump out of a plane with a parachute (both of which I’ve done) then that is a decision I made at the time weighing up the risks and rewards associated with each activity. Where are my rewards as consideration for the risk you pose me when you light up in an enclosed area??
Unfortunately your smoking does not present me with any reward. Worse it stings the back of my nasal and I stink as a result. You get the reward from your nicotine fix – I get nothing and there in lies the selfishness in all smokers who think they have the right to poison others.
You can present any statistics involving your friends and family involving their health and their smoking habits or one off stories of smokers living beyond 110 (which are open for debate). The fact is your results do not extrapolate to the wider world and the undisputable positive correlation between tobacco smoke and the higher probability of contracting pretty much every illness going.
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1955, it didn’t get approved (they’re probably fed up with this topic) but I stated that ‘old’ and ‘older’ people (men, women, smokers or non-smokers) are ALL needed, very much so.
Also, I wager I would far prefer your now-gone local to clubs.
My point was that what you and I want should matter but it just doesn’t. Unless we’re in the majority I doubt we’ll get our way and it seems we’re not in the majority anymore with what we want from our pubs! It’s business so the market and the owner decide and we don’t get a look in.
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#93
Do you imagine that people who “go clubbing” will be doing so for the rest of their lives because that’s what they did when they were young?
I used to go to nightclubs, but I grew up and what was new and trendy at the time now inhabits the golden oldie (not quite, but not far off) section. WHich is the way of the world. I actually think it’s sad that young people today might not have the chance to grow into enjoying the delights of the traditional pubs - with soulless beer barns like Weatherspoons being the only thing available.
The “old man’s” pub isn’t dying, its being killed off and that’s a very different thing
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smoke lover LOL thats why i love smokers great sense of humour devil-may-care attitude to life live for today tomorrow will take care of itself.my old auntie in ireland is 93 and she has smoked since 30 years of age after suffering from depression her doctor told her to try smoking for the stress she was under and has,st looked back she is just like you with the humour always look on the bright side of life
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