From B Launder.
REGINALD Le Sueur’s letter (JEP, 27 December) is I believe based on the false premise that God and Jesus do not exist. I would assert that there is ample evidence that God does exist and that Jesus was a real person in history. Here are some examples:
The fact that Jesus was a person in history is confirmed in many ways even by non-Christian writers of the time and by his unique impact on the world.
For proof of God just look at the precision of the night sky and the wonders of nature.
The lives of people that have been and are being transformed for good, through believing and trusting in Jesus.
The Bible, although difficult to understand in places has been proved to be true over time.
Although the values of love and forgiveness applied before the Christian era, they were supremely portrayed by Jesus and Jersey is still, I believe, a Christian island, not only because of ancient history but also because most people still recognise that Christian values are of benefit to society and have stood the test of time. The decision to become a Christian is a personal one and I agree should not be forced on anyone. I have to say many of the things down through history which have been done in the name of Christianity were not actually carried out by Christians.
L’Etoile,
Mont Millais,
St Helier.
Article posted on 5th January, 2009 - 2.58pm
117 Article Comments
Well said. Okay, many people will debate God’s existence as is their right, but historically Jesus did exist… the only question is whether you believe him to be the Son of God.
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“I refuse to prove that I exist,’ says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing”
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Oh what a tease the JEP’s letter editor is, from the title of the letter I thought that the writer had found empirical proof of the existence of God (the author doesn’t specifically identify which god he refers to but we’ll assume not Zeus, Shiva, nor Mithras).
However it remains the case that no god has been proven to exist and I’d suggest that many things in nature are far from wonderful such as disease, disasters, venomous creatures, mutation, death during childbirth etc.
B Launder is of course free to believe as he/she wishes and it is rather pointless to debate this on the JEP’s letters page and I’m of course not helping matters by replying here but c’est la vie!
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I am a devout Catholic and believe in god,my animals our States, and the Chief Minister, With all this I have a full and compleat life.
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In my view such opinions, trotted out as ‘fact’ is dangerous. The existence of a god or Jesus is a whole debate on its own which I won’t go into here but, if Mr Launder wants to assert that the bible has been ‘proven to be true’ consider this.
For far too long priests and preachers have completely ignored the vicious criminal acts that the Bible promotes. The so called “God” of the Bible makes Bin Laden look like a Boy Scout. This God, according to the Bible, is directly responsible for many mass-murders, rapes, pillage, plunder, slavery, child abuse and killing, not to mention the killing of unborn children. I have included references to the Biblical passages, so grab your Bible and follow along.
It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people after the Ten Commandments when he said “Thou shall not kill”.
For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6).
In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church!
Now I expect that any christian reading this will say “oh, but that was the OLD Testament. It is is defunct for Jesus was the “lamb” to clear away its rules and regulations. Sorry, you will be wrong.
Jesus strongly approves of the old law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
So, you cannot cherry pick which bits are true and which aren’t. The Bible is either true, or it isn’t. If it is only true in bits, it is wholly unreliable.
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Leah, except those of biased Christian writers, there isn’t one writing outside the Bible in all of ancient history that clearly refers to Jesus of Nazareth.
If I am wrong of course I would be very grateful if you would enlighten me.
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“…the precision of the night sky and the wonders of nature.”
Fine if you want to take responsibility for the destruction and misery nature causes including the wrath of man.
Why would a perfect God create an imperfect world – to tease us? Why would a forgiving and all enlightened God require faith in him to pass the Gates of St Peter – because he wants gratitude? Both of those traits are human flaws.
Morals weren’t invented by Christians. Christianity was based on morals or the innate mutual respect hardwired in a properly functioning brain to ensure our own survival.
Oh and I would be careful when reading scripture that was written hundreds of years after the event – even the plainest of facts fall foul of Chinese whispers.
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Bambi, try reading the Koran. Pliny and Tacitus also make mention, the latter gets disputed, but generally by people desperate to try and disprove Jesus’ existence rather than totally objective historias.
Joker… this is one point I really get tired of having to make. I’m not religious but even I can see that man causes pain, suffering and death to other man. No god makes him do this, he chooses to do it all by himself.
Why does this fact concern me so much? Because man’s desperate need to blame anything bad he does on others (and sometimes that is a God) simply means that man is being allowed to not take responsibility for his own actions. What society needs more than ever is for people to actually take responsibility for themselves and their own actions and to be held accountable for them, i.e. to grow up. Otherwise society will just continue its rapid decline!
And why shouldn’t a God require faith in him? I don’t remotely see how that’s a ‘human flaw’. I don’t just allow anybody into my house… can you seriously tell me that’s wrong and I have a human flaw because of it?
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The night sky is far from precise.
In the distant past our planet was repeatedly struck by huge comets with devastating effect.
We get hit less these days because our planet has cleared a path through its orbit but there is still plenty of stuff out there and strikes still take place.
Witness the Tunguska incident of 11 Dec 1908, if that had taken place over London as opposed to Siberia millions would have been obliterated in the blink of a eye.
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Leah, I agree with your third paragraph but as to your first, it would be helpful if you would direct me to the exact spot in the Koran and in Pliny where Jesus of Nazareth is specifically mentioned as I do not have the time or inclination to read the whole thing.
In any event why don’t you try reading up on Zeus, Shiva and Mithras. You will find many uncanny similarties to the bible story in these, much earlier stories – I would take a punt and guess that all these middle eastern god stories come from the same original source. A very good way to control the population. Be very very good or you won’t get a present from Santa, Jesus, god, Mithras etc etc etc.
As for Tacitus, I have read a lot of his stuff and I would have to remark that, as interesting as it is, it could be said that his writings were unbiased or accurate. This is of course the Roman who did his utmost to demonise the Celtic culture and ‘convert’ the pagans – by the sword if necessary.
I would have to say that the onus is on the claimant here. It is no use asserting that Jesus existed unless you have incontravertible evidence. So I challenge anyone to prove – beyond doubt that not only did HE exist (there may well have been a few thousand guys called Jesus living in the middle east at that time) but that he existed and did all the deeds it is said in your bible that he did.
I do take responsibility for my actions but I do not require any kind of crutch to help me along – particularly a bronze age fairy tale which has been edited numerous times for political reasons from a plagiarised fable.
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Leah – I’m not saying there isn’t a creator of some description – anyone would be foolish to think they can prove either way. Organised religions however place doctrine and rules they think God has set out for us – faith and freewill are examples.
Faith for instance is like blackmail. Despite what I might do in my life, good or bad, I am promised an eternity of heaven… But only if I have faith in God. Any question, any doubt (that’s freewill BTW) and I am dammed. So I’m given the freewill to decide for myself but actually there isn’t really an option is there considering the alternative. You only let people you have faith in into your house because (a) you are mortal and (b) you, like everyone, have prejudice. God suffers neither of those afflictions so entry into Heaven should be unconditional – turn the other cheek and all.
Freewill. That’s religions retort for all things nasty. The paradox here is that we are told God is perfect. But why put freewill in the mix, so he can choose who is good and who is bad? Man does cause pain – but who gave us the option, or lets us get away with it? This system is not perfection.
As for blame – how can I blame something on a God I don’t believe exists? Yes it is man to blame.
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Considering B Launder in a previous letter (20th Dec) was supporting the teaching of Christian values and the threat of eternal punishment in Hell in the island’s primary schools, I find it interesting that he states in this letter that he is against coercing people to become Christians. If he is in fact against this, then how can teaching the island’s children a form of Christianity such as this be justified?
Also, I’d be appalled if arguments such as ‘Jesus is mentioned in books’, ‘There are stars in the sky during the night’ and ‘People become nicer when they start going to church’ were considered by anyone to be of sufficient intellectual merit to be propagated in schools.
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God tests us in many ways, Faith is a wonderful thing, God talks to me every day through my animals.
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I don’t just allow anybody into my house either.
Religious callers in particular will not get a polite response.
Answering the door naked usually delivers the message…
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I ask you all…
How many stupid and pointless religious wars have taken place in the past? How many thousand of people have been massacred due to not believing in a particular faith?
Instead of humans focusing on the image of “god” they prefer to believe in. Why can’t people take the important parts of each religion, mix them all together and use that as a guide.
I personally disagree with any religious teachings in school.
I think children should be taught respect for all living things and faith in themselves, as at the end of the day, they are their own guides…
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Voltaire – God Thinks
you should give that a listen Bridget…
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It’s funny that RG22 should mention people becoming nicer when they go to church.
I was once marshalling for the Autumn 10k when it finished at FB Fields and was unfortunate enough to have the task of not allowing trafic into the FB Fields car park so it wouldn’t knock the runners over. Instead I had to redirect the traffic to drive towards Green Road, turn left and park at the bottom of FB Fields where the cricket nets now are.
Now, I had people trying to drive in to watch the end of the 10k, people arriving to play football and people arriving to attend Sunday morning mass at the church. All the people going to the athletics track and the footballers were absolutely fine, but I had to take abuse from virtually every single church goer, one of whom actually tried to run me over they were so incensed. The severity of the language was shocking for so called “catholics”. To quote Father Ted,”You wouldn’t hear that kind of language from a docker”.
What’s my point? Common courtesy and civility has nothing to do with being religious.
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No offence Bridget but I think you view Jersey through rose tinted spectacles! It’s good to be optimistic but realism must be considered too!
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Love it – opening the door naked – sorry I am not brave enough for that. The last lot I had did not like it when I asked if they had been police checked because their activities seem a good way for individuals up to no good to creep around people’s living areas.
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It must be nice to have such faith as B. Launder does, not having to worry about dying and a feeling of never really being alone…I can see why so many lonely or desperate people turn to religion. It also means not having to take responsibility for anything. I almost feel jealous of the people who possess such blind faith, but unfortunately my superior intellect forbids such luxuries as I can blatantly see the extreme ridiculousness in the bible stories – mere fairy tales in my humble opinion.
Still, fair play to those that want to believe, although it would be preferable if they didn’t try to indoctrinate others, either by knocking on doors with bible in hand or by forcing it to be taught at primary schools.
Finally, if the whole world did start following the christian example, at least the world would be a much better place, albeit a more naive one.
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The damage monotheism has done to our fellow human beings is huge. If Christianity made us better the prisons would be full of atheists and they are not.
Far to much importance is given to Christianity and religion in general. If you can believe there is a being that created the whole universe in one day. Who knows the thoughts of every human being, knows the future, will damn you to hell for eternity for not worshipping him and has no scientifically measurable effect on our universe. Thats fine we respect your views, dont say it is proven. Evolution is far more of a good explanation for us being here. The Atheists are the pacifists on this planet, religion could be considered a social virus self replicating and preying on society. The only common thread running through all religions is the need for priests of some sort without which you are unable to get salvation. Hmm its a business !!
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Bambi Woods,
You wrote yesterday the following:
In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife!
Firstly let me state how correct you are in your last paragraph of your message – “So, you cannot cherry pick which bits are true and which aren’t. The Bible is either true, or it isn’t. If it is only true in bits, it is wholly unreliable.” I fully agree that you cannot cherry pick, a point very well made.
Now back to your references to the Old Testament. Generally, I believe you are confusing two things: what the Bible records, and what the Bible approves. Specifically on the passage from Judges 21 – where exactly did you read that God ordered any of this? If you read it carefully, the men of Israel are responsible, and make the decisions. You should note very carefully the last sentence in Judges 21 “In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes”.
Other passages need fuller and more varied exposition, but there are plenty of books to help you if you truly wish to understand the Bible.
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The future – I presume you are excluding the Christian message of the Bible in your comment that “The only common thread running through all religions is the need for priests of some sort without which you are unable to get salvation.” I Timothy 2v5 states that “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” Christ Himself when He was here on earth said in John 14v6 that “I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me.” Martin Luther, the great reformer, used to say that one is saved “by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone” based on his coming to a proper appreciation of the book of Romans. Man made religion is his attempt to come to God in his way and on his terms, failing to understand that there is nothing we can do of ourselves to merit God’s favour. A priest, however “qualified”, is still human and falls under the scope of Romans 3v23 which reads “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” – how then is he in a position to save others? The great message of the gospel is that whilst we were in a hopeless state, unable to do anything to save ourselves or anyone around us, “when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly” (Romans 5v6) and through “repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 20v21) we can have peace with God and eternal security. No need for any priests in the gospel message – a transaction made with God Himself.
On a different point – atheists are pacifists? Many are – but what about the atheist Communist regimes which murdered approx 100 million people (Harvard University research) in the 20th century?
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The Future
Interesting point in relation to the damage monotheism has caused; however if you are referring to Christianity I would strongly argue that much of Christianity is far from monotheistic as it just replaced Roman plaster gods with plaster saints; it merely overlays ancient religions conveniently replacing all of the minor gods with saints and changing the name of the big Kahuna.
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House prices are starting to drop and for many people on the ‘average’ wage, this is a good thing because it gives hope. If the States pass this then we will know for sure that we are only being governed by fat cats.
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Well Dolans it seems that by pulling me up on cherry picking bits of the bible you go on to cherry pick part of my post.
On that part however, it does depend on which bible you read as there are many versions, each one carefully edited to serve its purpose. Each one interpreted in a way that serves the master best. Much like how some muslims are critisised for continually re-interpreting the koran to suit individual requirements.
I understand that the the Codex Sinaiticus is the biblical manuscript that textual critics assert is the oldest. At least four different scribes were involved writing the original text.
However, as many as ten scribes tampered with the codex throughout the centuries.
Tischendorf, said he “counted 14,800 alterations and corrections in Sinaiticus. Alterations, more alterations, and more alterations were made, and in fact, most of them are believed to be made in the 6th and 7th centuries. On nearly every page of the manuscript there are corrections and revisions, done by 10 different people.
On many occasions 10, 20, 30, 40, words are dropped…letters, words even whole sentences are frequently written twice over, or begun and immediately canceled. That gross blunder, whereby a clause is omitted because it happens to end in the same word as the clause preceding, occurs no less than 115 times in the New Testament.”
Making this situation worse is that it was written some 400 years after your Jesus apparently died.
That is a bit like me and three mates writing an apparently true story about a carpenter who lived during the reign of Elizabeth I, having ten unknown editors revise our story over the next few hundered years and then present it today as fact.
It may end up as a great literary piece but under no circumstances could it be regarded as accurate or reliable.
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I’m agnostic and I am bored of this arguement. Just let people believe what they want to believe. Everyone deserves there own opinion. What does it matter if Jesus is the son of God? What does it matter if God exists or not? Whatever people believe in gets THEM by, makes THEIR lives better. Just leave it for God’s sake (excuse the pun).
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It matters to me Jerseygirl because such beliefs have caused mcuh death, suffering, misery and unnecessary feelings of guilt; and continue to do so.
If the original letter had not asserted certain matters to be proven as fact – as opposed to simply believed – I would not have bothered writing all this stuff. Unfortunately there are gullible people out there who will read such statements as “there is ample evidence that God does exist and that Jesus was a real person in history” and believe it to be true.
That, in my view, is dangerous, erroneous and cannot go unchallenged.
I agree with you that people should be able to believe what they like with the proviso that it does not hurt anyone. If only it were that simple.
Unfortunately history (and current events) tells us that this is far from the case.
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one word…..science!!
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Thank God I’m an Atheist!
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Thank the gods I am a Pantheist.
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JerseyGirl – it really does matter because either the Bible and the gospel are true, or they are not. The existence of God and the truth of the Bible is not dependent on whether you believe in it or not. I may believe that the moon is made of cheese but that does not mean it is.
If there is no God, we came from nothing and we are going nowhere, life is meaningless, we live in a moral vacuum, and there are no absolutes then clearly we can all do what we like, believe what we like and there are no consequences. Take evolutionary theory to its logical conclusion and a true evolutionist will have to admit that Hitler with his horrific genocides and policies of killing the disabled etc was not actually wrong. There is no good and no evil, it’s all subjective.
However, if there is a God who created us and to whom we are all accountable, if there are absolute morals, if we do have never-dying souls, then surely we have to make our peace with Him while we can.
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I always talk to animals and ask the Gorillas at Jersey zoo if they will share there organic fruit and veg with us “mere” mortals who freeze in one room and eat sub standard food.
Guess what? the Gorrillas refuse to respond to my requests how selfish!
How strange an island when even the Gorillas are sworn to secrecy.
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Religion should be banned; full stop. It causes too much trouble; it’s responsible for so many wars that enough is enough. Millions of years of evolution have created the world in which we live, no supreme power or entity is responsible. With so many religions come so many gods, they can’t have all created the world.
Religion was invented by a bunch of overly moralistic control freaks who wanted people to believe in what they believe in. And what’s the easiest way to make people believe you – scare them with tales of hell and the devil.
Religion is an old version of politics, just a bit more “pick-and-mix” – you tell the people what you believe in and you get followers. You either get people ready to join or some need convincing – then you just warn them of the alternative – as with religion – and they join.
When you’re dead, you’re dead – that’ your lot. And although the prospect of meeting up with loved ones in an after life comforts many people, realistically it does them no favours.
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Show me a picture of God, you can’t.
Show me a picture of Jesus, not a man with a beard who looks nothing like a native of the Middle East, you can’t.
Science will give you answers to the nights sky and all life on earth.
I appreciate you put your faith into something that cannot be proved, its a shame that you will not appreciate that I don’t believe in your God.
Until you change your attitude you will only ever see the demise of faith and churches around the world. The ball is in your court.
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If another child of god was born on earth, you would see all of the religions clamouring over each other to Disprove / Deny, his / her existence in a second.
Faith is a good thing as long as it does not impact on other people. Have Faith, just keep it to yourself.
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I find it ironic that Scientology is so derided in today’s society yet christianity, judaism, islam etc are perfectly acceptable.
We scoff at Scientologist who believe we are all descended from aliens who used to dwell in volcanoes and yet it is widely accepted by the christian community that a man walked on water, made a blind man see, turned water into wine etc etc etc.
If most religions that have been around for centuries were brand new and presented to us un their current form now, our developed and reasoned minds would find them ludicrous!
Religion and monarchial societies were invented as away to control the masses – one person in charge and you do what they say….hmmmmmm sounds very similar to a dictatorship if you ask me!
The very essence of the word faith is that you don’t need proof – you just believe so why try so hard to justify that….believe what you wish and treat others the same….live and let live.
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I DESTEST bible bashers – we don’t want to be saved from an illusion only you believe in! It’s our right as human beings to choose – you can not warp our children’s minds like this and then make out you’re doing the island a favour! How would you like it if i went to all the schools and told them that the magician down the road will hurt their family forever if they’re bad children? religion isn’t based on faith – it’s based on fear!
It doesn’t matter where we’ve come from, who or what began it all, what happens after we die – its all nothing compared to what we choose to do with the time we’re here and how we interact with our environment. Right and Wrong, Good and Bad – it’s all a choice and it’s good parenting that makes it easy for children to see that choice – not religion.
It certainly doesn’t bother me if there is nothing after death – i think those people must be VERY stupid to foresake the things life has to offer because they might be dammed for all eternity… heaven forbid you have sex before marriage or choose to let that person pass you on the street without trying to drag them to church! As i respect your choice to be an idiot you should respect mine to be a woman of my OWN mind
Now who was it that wrote in the bible that god created us in his image…. does that mean god is a monkey sitting on a cloud somewhere? Or a single cell organism? Science and history prove we did not always look as we do now… sooooooo where does that leave god exactly?
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This is possibly the most pointless blog I have ever seen. If you have faith, great, if you don’t, well that’s great too. Now get on with your lives.
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If God is all powerful, why has he made such a dogs breakfast of getting his message across? Surely, all he has to do is appear in the sky and tell all the many and various “people of faith” to stop killing one another in his name. But he seems not to want to do this, so one might be forgiven for thinking that perhaps he isn’t there.
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There are some passages in the Bible that are worth taking note of and applying to the way we live. For example,-
“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.” (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Of course many people prefer to only consider the New Testament where it is said,-
“Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.” (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
Perhaps someone can tell me where I can fulfil my obligations and buy some slaves.
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IS Jersey a christian island or was it a christian island.What percentage attend church?.
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To echo Dompeycat and in the words of the current Atheist Bus Campaign, “There’s probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.” And isn’t it about time we had a freethinkers’ group here in Jersey to provide an alternative for those of us that don’t believe in gods?
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Bambi woods,
1. Yes, there are many versions of the bible – unsurprising as The New Testament has been preserved in over 5,300 Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Slavic, Ethiopic and Armenian. No other book from antiquity comes close to this multiplicity of copies. But on all important doctrinal matters each of these versions concur.
2. Your statement on the Codex Sinaiticus is wrong – sorry about that. You suggest it is the oldest manuscript, leading the reader to assume no earlier copies of the new testament exist. Fact is there are fragments of papyrus dating back to 100AD. Sinaiticus is the oldest COMPLETE copy of scripture (pretty impressive it has lasted 1,600 years! – I have seen world war 2 letters that look like they are about to fall apart!).
3. As to your points about typos; yes there are plenty. The Bible is a big book. But these typos were corrected on proof reading (for instance your post, third paragraph states “I understand that the the Codex Sinaiticus is..” – spot the double ‘the’? But your point was not affected, and on proof reading no doubt you would have ‘altered’ it).
4. I do not have the time nor inclination to spend a good part of my life in textual criticism – however I can lean on people who have. Take Sir Frederic Kenyon, former director of the British Museum and author of ‘The Palaeograpghy of Greek Papyri’. He states “in no other case is the interval of time between the composition of the book and the date of the earliest manuscripts so short as in that of the new testament.” “The last foundation for any doubt that the scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed”.
Perhaps you should apply some of your time and intelligence in actually reading the scripture, rather than eloquently trying to rubbish it.
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I just thank God I’m an atheist! Keep on lovin you crazy peoples!!!
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To Pastafarian and anyone else who is interested. We do have a local Humanist group in Jersey with a discussion group on Yahoo. We are intending to get together again soon, maybe for lunch somewhere. Perhaps you would like to join us.
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Evolution is 100X more proven than the existence of God.
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Bernard, it’s a shame you’ve obviously never taken a close look at the theory of evolution. It is full of gaping holes, flaws and massive assumptions. It takes faith to believe in evolution, as it takes faith to believe in a designer, Creator God. In fact I think it takes more faith to believe in evolution. The reality is that people choose to believe that we are a product of random chance mutations because it completely absolves them from any responsibility.
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Doolans, your 2nd paragraph is quite sad if that is how you see a life without a god. I certainly do not live in a moral vaccum and I don’t think my life is at all meaningless. Conversley, my life probably means more to me because I know it’s the only one I am getting.
I see death as the return to nature of our elements, and the end of our existence as individuals. The forms of “afterlife” available to humans are natural ones, in the natural world. Our actions, our ideas and memories of us (our spirit)live on, according to what we do in our lives. Our genes live on in our families, and our elements are endlessly recycled in nature.. Fantastic!!
As for your evolution / Hitler point, I could not disagree with you more.
All other animals kill for survival or die trying to survive. That is the basis of natural selection. What Hitler was doing was ‘unnatural selection’ as the disabled etc were neither food nor threat to him. There is a big difference. One is evoloution, the other is genocide.
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“Perhaps you should apply some of your time and intelligence in actually reading the scripture, rather than eloquently trying to rubbish it.”
With the greatest respect Doolans, why on earth would I want to do that. It is abundantly clear that I don’t believe in your chosen fairy story. Having been thumped enough by bible bashers during my school years I know enough to see the obvious flaws that you can’t see through blind faith.
I am quite happy to rubbish it thank you. If it bothers you then your faith might not be as strong as it should be.
The onus is on the claimant. If you claim that god is real, Jesus (as described in the bible) existed and the bible is true – prove it.
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No Dolans it takes common sense to believe in Evolution… I have taken a close look at evolution and it makes far more sense than a story book with no facts around it. Without religion the world would be a far happier place to live.
Tell me this Dolans, why do you worship Jesus and not Apollonius of Tyana? He healed the sick and raised the dead. And by all accounts was around before Jesus?
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And there was me thinking we only worshiped the god “money” in Jersey.
Thanks be to whoever you think is suitable
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Probably Bernard because Dolans parents worshiped Jesus. No other reason.
If his parents had worshipped Appolonius of Tyana he would too.
It is no great co-incidence that most people follow the beliefs instilled by their parents.
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A Christian Island? With Qualies? are we not all equal in the eyes of God?
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Dolans – I think you’ll find far bigger “gaping holes, flaws and assumptions” in religion than you will in the theory of evolution.
The whole point of the latter is to replace faith with proven fact. Religion on the other hand solely relies on faith and always will, otherwise religion as you worship it would cease to exist.
Your last statement that those who choose not to believe do so to absolve themselves of any responsibility is totally unfounded. To make such a suggestion implies you know what I’m thinking – guess that’s why you have so much faith (hence the danger it sometimes presents). Actually bringing morals ‘down to earth’ i.e. relying on what I, and no other (inc God), decide is morally correct means there are no interpretations of scripture to be made. In essence my morality is purer than one read from scripture and as a result I cannot absolve myself from responsibility by hiding behind religion to justify my actions.
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Ah the bible, a collection of stories written up to 300 years after the event based on hearsay and translated through several ancient languages to come to the latest version, which, at times, has been revised to address modern beliefs and interruptions of the old scripts. It’s full of contradictions.
Evolutional theories maybe full of holes, but they are more substantive than the contradictory ramblings contained within the good book, a book that advocates the subdigation of women, abuse of children, slavery, capital punishment and the exploitation of animals for mans benefit (got that Bridget ???) just to name a few.
If god is above egotism, vanity, selfishness etc why does he have to be worshipped, why does he insist that if he is not worshipped then he will let loose his wrath ?
If man has freewill, why does God feel the need to intervene in certain circumstances but never intervened when the chips are really down, i.e the holocaust, tsunami etc…
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Bambi(and others)- your efforts to rubbish the Bible do not bother me in the slightest. For centuries the Bible has been burned, banned, derided, abused and its followers persecuted but it emerges victorious as the best-selling Book of all time, the living Word of God. Not bad for a “fairy tale”.
What strikes me as amusing is that people like you always get so defensive trying to defend your view. I don’t feel the need to vehemently deny the existence of fairies at the bottom of the garden, so why get so agitated about something you believe is on a par with that?!
As it happens, I was able to work out all by myself that the Bible is true, after a long and challenging journey from agnosticism. I am capable of independent thought and reasoning (and have a degree in physics).
I don’t want to “Bible bash” or ram my beliefs on any one else, I just want people to try and approach what is the most important question in life (is there a God?) as objectively as possible. But I thank God that everyone has the freedom to either accept or reject Him.
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Ah religion. The cause of so many arguments. People should believe what they want to believe and it should be left at that because who cares what I believe? Who cares what my neighbour believes? Who cares what members of other religions believe? No-one is hurting me or damaging my life by having different beliefs to myself. People’s lives are only affected when people start arguing over beliefs. That is when conflict occurrs and it is a shame because at the end of the day, no-one alive can prove any other religion wrong. It’s all about faith. Personally, my religion is my conscience. I do what I believe is right and as long as I feel hapy with myself and the decisions I have made, then I am happy.
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Given the repeated warnings about the evils of usury (lending money at interest) scattered throughout the Bible I would have thought that Jersey which is kept afloat by the said practice would not score that highly on the Christianity meter!
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Based on her logic and knowledge I totally agree with Bambi Woods; a well researched and structured argument which is flawless and factually irrefutable.
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But Dolans, you haven’t answered my question, why do you worship Jesus and not Apollonius of Tyana? He healed the sick and raised the dead too by all accounts.
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Dorlans – It is not my intention to rubbish the bible in my next sentence – like all literature you take what you want from it. However you have to question why the bible is the best selling book of all time – perhaps due to the aggressive marketing it has had over the last 1,500 years and the fact it is one of the oldest mass produced books – so you could say it has an unfair advantage over modern literature.
I think more of an accurate question is – does it still outsell all other books? Or will it outsell in years to come?
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Dolans, how is it possible for someone claiming to have a science based degree to be completely ignorant of evolution as a valid scientific theory?
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Believe what you want
Frankly evolution a theory has holes in it even though it is more plausible than Genesis Creationism.
One thing though is how does one explain the reversal of entropy at the time of the big bang?
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Indeed evolution has many holes in it and I for one would consider myself more of a creationist. However, I don’t believe in the jehovah god as he is described in the bible, that’s piffle.
Although there is a fair bit of evidence that implies we were created, NONE of this evidence points towards the bibilical god…it would be more logical to presume we were created by a superior alien race rather than a single entity. Indeed, any major construction – from the local Financial Quarter, to the Great Wall of China, to the World itself perhaps – were surely carried out by many thousands of individuals working together. Perhaps a team of lesser gods all working for the one Head Honcho….He got to take all the credit but I bet He sat on his pompous backside whilst the minor deities did all the work!
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I have been keeping out of this one but having read Kev’s comments (no 58) I have to agree with every word he has written.Good common sense which does not involve abusing,patronising or criticising anyone else-well put Kev!
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There will always be gaps in science, finding god in the gaps in science has been a tool of religion for thousands of years.
Every fossil discovered that fills a gap in evolution makes two more gaps. What difference is there between a god with no measurable effect on our universe and no god. The prison is full of Christians, religion has no measurable effect on whether a person is a criminal or not. It is the religions that systematically use guilt as a tool to gather funds who have the most criminals. God does not exist relax and enjoy life. It should be against the law to teach creation as a fact in schools.
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there’s only one religion…….football. Come on you mighty reds!!
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Bambi, that’s quite erroneous… what Jesus said is not up for dispute but for Christians (and to be a Christian the New Testament is the most important, particularly the Gospels) is to love and to follow Jesus’ example. Well Jesus’ example was quite clearly tolerance, love and helping others. My parents I know to be Christians because that is what they do… they follow His example and the love and they give of themselves to help others time and time again (and not for plaudits either) they are just loving people.
Many people who say they are Christians (and presumably this is the same for all religions) do not even remotely follow the main teachings of that religion so you’re a fool if you believe that they actually do belong to that religion. I look for evidence in how someone lives their life… what they say is irrelevant because often people think they are a Christian because they live in a certain country or their family are Christians or they simply want to belong to something.
I wouldn’t trust that someone was a Doctor and let them treat me without getting evidence first, yet people foolishly believe that someone belongs to a certain religion just becaue the person claims it!!! How foolish!
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Andrew #34 in particular…
So not only do people commit crimes and blame it on ‘their God’ but you are actually believing that ‘their God’ made them do it, instead of holding them to account for their own actions! I’m sorry, but I find that incredibly naive, foolish and to the detriment of society.
Man fights and kills because man wants to fight and kill, any other excuse is just that, an excuse! Man already fights and kills for numerous reasons completely unrelated to religion so what do you actually think banning religion would achieve? Many people however are giving, tolerant, loving and selfless because they believe it is how their God requires them to be… if you banned religion there would still be plenty of killing but there may be far less good people!
Take the numbers of crimes and murders that are committed by man for purely ‘human’ reasons, it’s guaranteed to be an extremely large number and over millenia it probably outnumbers those killed in ‘the name of religion’. Man kills for science, because of poverty, money, power, politics, fear, race, ignorance, jealousy… the list is endless. No doubt someone will bring up the twin towers… but people are recruited to the Taliban by ‘monetary gain’. These can be extremely poor guys who can no longer provide for their family who are guaranteed that their wife and kids will be provided for if they ‘kill in the name of Allah’. Ponder that thought a little bit and put yourself in their shoes.
God is not to blame for man’s fighting and if you believe someone when they say they are ‘fighting in the name of God’ then more fool you because all you are doing is letting man hide behind an excuse instead of forcing him to take responsibility for his own actions.
I am longing to see a society where people start taking responsibility for their own actions but more and more people are hiding (and are being allowed to hide) behind excuses and I can see from reading the posts on here why that is.
No-one makes a man do anything people! Not a God, not an animal, not another human being. You and only you are responsible for your actions just like I am responsible for mine. If only everyone were raised this way we would not have the serious societal problems we now have!
Just as an aside, the accuracy of the Bible as passed down over millenia is higher than that for any other book of similar age… just an interesting point.
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Moi… I know some prolifically published physicists who are considered to be among the top of their field who are also Christians so your point is what exactly?
Christianity and Science are not mutually exclusive although Scientists seem to like to make out that they are (possibly due to many scientists’ arrogance and desire to perpetuate the myth that only they can know everything). I personally do not, however, know any Christians that think Science and Christianity are mutually exclusive.
I am now a scientist but I am embarrassed and ashamed at the arrogance of some of the people I work with and I find it quite shocking how they can be so shut off to the fact that there could be things out there that Science will never be able to explain. Science deals with the physical… I think there are plenty of people around (including non-religious people) who do not believe that the physical is all there is to this world.
Plenty of people believe that there is something to this world outwith just the physical. Personally as a scientist I also believe that there is a non-physical aspect to our world, I believe that as humans we have something (most people would use the word ’soul’ I guess) that will never be scientifically quantifiable. Maybe studying identical twins/triplets gives you an insight to this that you just can’t get in any other area of study. It doesn’t mean I believe I’ll live an eternal life somewhere or anything like that, more like a linked conscious I guess.
I would love to think that over millenia there is every chance that we will ‘move on’ a bit from Science to study this other area of our being and our universe, but whatever it is it won’t be Science, it will be another area of study altogether. It hurts me to say it but at the moment Science is greatly at risk of becoming as closed off and narrowminded as they accuse the Church of being!
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ALL people must be free to believe what they want… whether that agrees with you or not! That is true freedom, not banning religion or bullying others for their religious beliefs! I am not religious but I have no time for those that bully religious people. It takes an extremely tough cookie to hold to religious beliefs in this day and age, it’s much easier to just give up and follow the crowd. Personally I admire truly religious people.
Also, it’s interesting that people who are so vehemently against the idea of a God still have a desperate need to give a name to their own belief system. Starting up a regular ‘Freethinkers’ group in Jersey? Isn’t that how religions get started? You’d probably even end up at odds with some other group of ‘freethinkers’! Never mind that true Christians are freethinkers anyway.
Also, you may have had bad experiences with ‘Bible bashers’ but I don’t form my opinion of you based on the way other people with your belief system treated me, everyone’s behaviour is attributed to them alone not a religion, God, family member or friend! It’s childish to blame all Christians for the behaviour of some (who may not even have actually been Christians anyway).
I would love to see the agnostics just get on with their lives and leave others to get on with theirs (religious or otherwise) but they (as they accuse religious people of doing) seem to feel the need to stick their noses in to what others believe while accusing others of doing exactly that. Richard Dawkins would be a prime example. Churches saw a good method of advertising and used it… what he’s doing is some kind of really petty ‘retribution’ that just makes him look childish!
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Dolans… well said. Someone with common sense and genuine ‘free thinking’!
Amazes me how often the pot and kettle argument can be thrown back at the ‘anti-God’ squad and yet they honestly believe that they are the ones that are being tolerant and non-judgemental. Everything they accuse religious people of doing is something they also do, often moreso.
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Bambi, there is actually noO evidence that those people are biased-Christian writers though that is often the excuse trotted out by the anti-God squad. It is not the case that you can trust everything agnostics or self-professed atheists say… they are still human and subject to human flaws. They also often have ulterior motives of their own. I’m not religious but actually there is no good reason to believe that these writers were Christian. And it’s worth noting that the Gospels are written as an ‘eye-witness’ account and that does actually help add to their own authenticity when placed in the way of those times.
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Religous fighting and opinions will go on and on and on. It is good to have faith, in oneself, another being or a god of any discription.
As time passes and our science and knowledge of things increase many questions will be answered in time. Once the truth was that he world was flat, the fact is that it has always been round.
Truth is relative to knowledge and understanding at a point in time. The facts we may not be able to see or understand with our curent knowledge.
Lets just accept its a great journey and enjoy each day whether delivered by a god or by science.
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God did not create man. Man created God. Yes, Jesus did exist, he was the son of a couple, and his mother ws not a virgin. That was a missquote.
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Bored, bored, bored! People without God thinking that because they don’t beleive that they are somehow “more intelligent” than those who do believe. Then people who do believe trying to make the non-believers believe when they don’t want to. Poinless. If you don’t believe – great, but I wouldn’t put this down to inteligence. If you do believe – great, show the love of Christ more and we will be able to call this island “Christian”
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Ultimately who are we to form such opinions and judgements, we are but drops in an everlasting ocean.
When the complexities of the world,nature, organisms within and many other incredible other things that are taken into consideration it seems abundantly clear that these cannot evolve from ultimately nothing, creation and the creator are the only plausible theory.
Who are we to expect God to do what we want him to do, every human heart is by nature sinful and evil and no person can deny thoughts, actions and words that we all have.
Some of the smartest minds in history endorse the notion of Jesus Christ. Many have become believers through dilligent research and study on the subject that has proven beyond doubt that not only did Jesus live on earth, the miracles that were performed were witnessed by believers and non-believers alike.
Before ruling out ‘true’ bible based christianity, why not actually attend some services and read the Bible and give it a chance. Perhaps a visit to Les Quennevais Evangelical Church in St Brelade could be an idea. You would be more than welcome.
I personally gave it a go after returning from University and a life searching but never truly achiving happiness. After a gradual and moving process have come to faith and trust in Jesus as Lord.
What have you seriously got to lose?????
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Dolans.
Again I feel I have to deconstruct your assertions.
Firstly, You say that bible followers have been persecuted and books burned. Personally I consider the persecution, torture and mass murders committed by bible followers to be far hreater in number and severity.
It may well be the best selling fairy tale of all time. It does not come as a surprise to me because of the aforementioned atrocities committed in the name of conversion. I am also sure that Harry Potter would be an even better seller if millions of copies were bought to place in just about every hotel room on earth.
I also consider the vandalism of pagan sites by christians more far more distasteful and disgraceful than burning a book, which can be printed again. The pagan sites have been lost for ever. It is our history and heritage which was destroyed.
All in all i think the crimes committed by christians over the centuries to far outwiegh what has been done to them.
Secondly, I don’t think anyone here is ‘defensive trying to defend our view’. It seems to me that most are on the offensive attacking yours. You may not be vehemently denying the existence of fairies at the bottom of the garden. That is because no one at any stage has asserted that they factually exist. You analogy is therefore fallacious and disingenuous.
The reason people here, like me react is that you keep asserting things are true as opposed to simply stating that you have faith or belief in it. As it stands I feel supremely confident that you cannot possibly prove that the bible is true, that a guy called jesus rose three days after he died etc or that there is a god. If you can prove it I challenge you to do so.
Look the word ‘prove’ up so that you understand it properly because you will need to provide unrefutable, peer reviewable evidence evidence to support your case. Visions in your sleep do not count, nor do voices in your head, they can be dealt with by taking the right medication.
So Dolans, in your last post you wrote ‘the Bible is true’; prove it.
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I think that there must be a God. I also believe that book where a man lived in a whale and another one rounded up every animal in the world in pairs and kept them on a boat. How could you not base your entire life around credible stories such as those?
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Leah, which bit is erroneous?
You say:- ‘what Jesus said is not up for dispute but for Christians (and to be a Christian the New Testament is the most important, particularly the Gospels) is to love and to follow Jesus’ example. Well Jesus’ example was quite clearly tolerance, love and helping others’
What jesus said is indeed up for dispute. That is my point – you are again asserting something to be true when it has not been proved.
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Belief in God not make you good.
There is no measurable decrease in criminality by following a religion.
There is no measurable decrease in mental illness by followers of religion.
There is no measurable benefit to health.
There is a measurable amount of money given to religions for no benefit to society.
I do not know that god exists but I know that I exist, I will believe in myself and do all my good and bad because of myself.
God did not make me do good, the devil did not make me do bad.
It is would be difficult to think any being capable of creating everything there is, would be vain enough to put someone in hell for worshipping a piece of rock.
Ask the question every child asks, “who made god ?”
Did he evolve ? Was he created ? Did he spontaneously create himself ?
Just saying “he has always existed” is not good enough.
Religion is a social virus preying on the vulnerable and weak minded.
Religion has a way of making people postpone really living in this life because they will live in the next.
There is no god ! This is it ! Enjoy !
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How can a man walk on water with holes in his feet? Just stick a colander in sink full water and then read the bible. In any event this whole post is getting faintly ridiculous. A little like two teams on the same pitch one playing Rugby Union the other Association Football then arguing who is right!
Faith and fact are mutually exclusive so stop wasting your time in arguing. The problem being that religion is both salvation and damnation; if you believe you are right by definition you must believe someone else is wrong; however what we consider fact is constantly evolving in the light of new discoveries.
Prior to 1945 (ish) there was no such thing as a tectonic plate, geological consensus dictated that it did not exist so therefore it can’t have. Stomach ulcers were caused by spicy food not aggravated by it. Those who argue the existence of god from established fact live in the accepted present state of affairs; 500 years ago you would be arguing the world was flat. Quite frankly those who argue from the point of faith, well god alone knows where your argument is based because I don’t.
The only way out of this circular claptrap is to get a life go down the pub and watch Doctor Who or something, Amen!
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Bambi Woods,
Why assume I must prove my proposition, whilst yours is assumed to be the starting position? I have yet to see an Atheist set out their evidence, in accordance with the scientific empirical method, that God does not exist. Even the latest news grabbing stunt by an Atheist group, the London bus advert, states “There’s probably no God: now stop worrying..”
Just in passing, I love the output from conferences when atheistic scientists get together to fathom how the first self replicating organism came to be. Here’s a good quote: “More than 30 years of experimentation on the origin of life in the fields of chemical and molecular evolution have led to a better perception of the immensity of the problem of the origin of life on Earth rather than to its solution. At present all discussions on principal theories and experiments in the field either end in stalemate or in a confession of ignorance. New lines of thinking and experimentation must be tried.” (Dose, Klaus [Director, Institute for Biochemistry, Gutenberg University, Germany], “The Origin of Life: More Questions Than Answers,”
The man who headed up arguably the most important scientific project in the last 10 years, Francis Collins, is a Christian – all those scientists that worked for him must think it absurd that a madman, or lunatic, was running the Human Genome Project.
Also arguably the most important scientist of all time, Sir Isaac Newton, was a Christian – ah, you say, that was 300 years ago, and he surely would be a card carrying Atheist if he lived in this day… Still, whilst not forming the very bedrock of the modern scientific enterprise, he could say “The Bible is a rock from which all the hammers of criticism have never chipped a single fragment”.
Now on to your challenge, ‘prove’ the Bible (and therefore God), here in this comment field in less than 100 words!… sorry, given that you probably have built up months, if not years, of anti God and anti Christian beliefs, it will take more than my few words to persuade you.
My faith, by the way, is not “blind”. I like the following quote about faith which seems to be much more appropriate than your terminology: “Faith affects the whole of man’s nature. It commences with the conviction of the mind based on adequate evidence; it continues in the confidence of the heart or emotions based on conviction, and it is crowned in the consent of the will, by means of which the conviction and confidence are expressed in conduct.”
Finally, as this will be my last post as I’m getting wearied by this present discussion, may I say that your beliefs are in the end irrelevant to me, but I find it strange that you seem to be on the point of aggression trying to put down mine. Why is that? My faith inherently brings me joy and peace and doesn’t depend on coercing people to agree with me.
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And on a far more serious note, because I find some of the comments quite insulting considering the number of Christians that have been killed just because of their faith…
Latest estimates have over 400 Christians a day being killed because of their faith; torture figures are of course even higher. That may well be news to all of you. Because of the pathetic ‘human rights and free-speech but only for some’ society that is now Great Britain, all that happens is Christians are allowed to be treated in a way that no other groups are… therefore, unsurprisingly, attacks on Christians worldwide just don’t get reported in Britain.
Currently there is a good chance that more Christians are being killed for their faith than people of any other religion. It’s happening in China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Mexico, the Phillipines, Belarus… the list is unbelievably long and in many of these places the authorities are either actively involved or are turning a blind eye, hence numbers may well be under-reported! That is indeed the same China where everyone got up in arms about the treatment of Tibetans but said nothing about the treatment of Christians (yet again made to be second-class citizens)! In some cases these people were killed by parents or siblings for the ‘crime’ of converting to Christianity.
So, in fact, many Christians are being killed just for their faith, possibly more than the people of other religions killed by the ‘claim to be Christians’ that Bambi mentions. I’ll admit I’m constantly surprised that any adult would actually believe that these murderers are in fact Christians. Christians are not allowed to kill. Like anyone, they could be guilty of manslaughter (not premeditated) but deaths like Bambi mentions require making the choice to kill… therefore the person, even if they were a Christian before, has clearly turned their back on religion and their God. Why then do you believe them to be Christians? Is it just because they claim it? They’re murderers, are you really going to believe the word of murderers? It’s unfathomable. You should look for evidence in how someone lives their life as to whether they actually follow a specific God or not, don’t believe they do just because they say it! Do you have any idea how many people claim to be Christians that quite clearly are not? I meet such people fairly regularly.
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Dolans, you are right to not waste your breath. And I have enjoyed your posts I have to say.
People come on with their righteous belief that they are the ‘freethinkers’ and the ones that truly support ‘free speech’. However, in this debate it is actually that everyone must have free speech… except religious people.
It is clear that some people truly do believe themselves to be suppporters of free speech and equal rights for all. However, it shows clearly on here that they are only in support of free speech and equal rights with some exceptions!
Just one exception means that it is neither free speech nor equal rights, not even remotely.
Also, as regards people who blame religion for everything because they were brought up in a Church school and were badly treated… it is worth noting that your treatment probably had nothing to do with religion and a lot to do with the times. Non-religious schools were (and still are) equally problematic. Remember there was an era when children were second-class citizens… to be seen and not heard, and certainly not to answer back. There was a time when corporal punishment was acceptable to society. Those were the times and all schools acted accordingly.
The Bible in no way justifies any type of abuse of children, in fact the Bible rates children as more important than society tends to (even today’s society)! So if you believe people abused school kids because of their religion, you are very sadly mistaken!
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Oh, I forgot… only Christians thought the earth was flat did they?
Hardly!
Again, false accusations being thrown at Christians just for the sake of offending. That’s a particularly tired old classic and it always makes me giggle that grown adults will still believe such rubbish.
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Bambi…
“Look the word ‘prove’ up so that you understand it properly because you will need to provide unrefutable, peer reviewable evidence evidence to support your case.”
Unless we’ve all missed something, YOU have not provided unrefutable, peer reviewable evidence to support any of your cases. Why ask it of others?
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What strikes me about this, is that we all seem to be missing the point entirely here. Religion is a path to spirituality. Spirituality is a personal subject which being personal differs from person to person, depending on their beliefs and background. Doesnt matter if you believe in God or not, doesnt matter if you believe in Buddha.
What really matters is moral and correct conduct through awareness and compassion, and I totally agree on the comment about personal responsibility. All too easy, so human to blame others, or something else when things go up the cack creak. We can’t change the world all at once, but we can certainly change ourselves, and in our conduct inspire others to do the same.
Doesnt matter who/what religious/spiritual path you follow, all paths lead to the same journey.
This thread has the potential of opening up the debate of my God is different from your God. The difference really is created by man in our never ending quest to enforce our view points on others. It needn’t be so when you realise how connected and dependant we really are on one another, and that we all a soul.
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Be careful Dolnns
“More than 30 years of experimentation on the origin of life in the fields of chemical and molecular evolution” etc is only finding god in the gaps in science.
It took years of scientific discovery just to get to this question, which will one day be solved, what happens then ?
Does god exist is a perfectly good question to ask as a scientific study.
Every time science shows proof of the existence of Jesus, Christians jump on it.
Yes get some kind of happiness from your activities just like sports people or stamp collectors do.
The problem is our society is Christianity biased and creation can be taught as fact in schools.
As an atheist I am more than just coerced by blog to be religious, our whole society has a Pagan Christian structured calendar.
The religious leaders in our society can express a minority view call it the majority view and get backing from the government.
Jersey is not Christian Jersey is not even Jersey, fifty percent of the population was not born here.
What we have is a legacy system no one can e bothered to change.
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I love the way Leah thinks she needs to comment on and ‘correct’ everyone else’s posts.
The Voice of Reason has spoken it seems!
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Dolans, you still haven’t answered my question, why do you worship Jesus and not Apollonius of Tyana? He healed the sick and raised the dead too by all accounts.
Why do you not answer it?
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Interesting comment about Christians being killed for their beliefs; it appears to me that the whole religion is built on the concept of martyrdom more so that the Moslems. If Christians are not being eaten by lions then they were being burnt at the stake, or more often doing the burning. Organised religion is solely about power and control.
Look at the Roman Catholic Church’s opposition to birth control; simple reason behind this being that the more kids you have the more you live in poverty and it is no accident that the church is strongest amongst the poorest.
Christianity is a very convenient establishment religion; it tells people not to worry about being poor as they get into heaven easier than the rich man, hence the concept of a will and all your goods passing to others immediately on your death.
The establishment controls the dogma and in order to get to heaven you have to conform and support those in control. If you can find a religion that does not do this then you will have no religion as it won’t exist so therefore you never will.
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Leah;
I don’t think I said that only Christians thought the world was flat and I think you miss my point, although that is probably my fault as I did not make it particularly clear. 500 years ago the earth was flat because this was accepted fact. We only ever argue fact from the current state of knowledge. Faith is not like this as faith requires no evidence at all, for this reason faith is more enduring than fact. I hope that makes sense?
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In message 86, Leah Holmes says “The Bible in no way justifies any type of abuse of children”. Perhaps you need to read the bible in order to justify saying that.
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.” O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
I am sure you will find many more examples if you look for them.
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Leah Holmes – 1) science is fact….religion (in my and many millions of others opinions are fantasy and the cause of all major conflicts throughout history). 2) Football is my faith (was intended as a joke). Although…..at least I know it does exist!
It looks to me you’re overly trying to convince yourself in these blogs and starting conflicts with all and sundry…..oh the irony!!! Surely if you believe then that’s enough. why do you feel you have to justify it to everyone who disagrees with you????
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To my mind religions only fuel wars, misery, and greed. The bible and other such things telling us how to live our lives have been written, and re-written over the centuries to fit people’s various ideals , controlling others and their particular faith.
Take all the unrest in the Middle East. What is all that about? War based on religion, that’s what.
If their is a God ( or Gods ) do you think they would approve of their disciples killing and maiming each other in their name ? I think not.
I do not want a religion. I am content in the belief that to lead a good life , and to treat other people like you wish to be treated yourself is sufficient .
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People are on here to have debate and share knowledge, that’s kind of the point of this site! I’m not correcting people any more than anyone else is. If you don’t like debate and opinions different to your own then presumably this isn’t the place for you. I am well aware how few Brits know about Christians being killed for their religion, while knowing all too well about people of other faiths being killed for theirs, that is why I shared that knowledge because Britain is fed a completely distorted view of Christianity from all angles! I can see a lot of that on here even. The one girl I knew personally, well her death was barely even in the British papers despite her being British.
Boris, sorry, the comment wasn’t meant to be at you personally, it’s just a regular comment that scientists trot out that is a load of nonsense, yet they insist on using it as some kind of anti-religion defense. It’s mad frankly.
Pescatarian… I think I’d already quite clearly stated that there is no point people trotting out the tired ‘Old Testament’ line. Christians are the experts in what they believe, just as you are the expert in what you believe. Yet non-Christians amazingly seem to think it their place to tell Christians what they believe! Why? What right is it of theirs? Would they do this to Hindus, Muslims or Jews? Maybe the would, but no doubt there would be a law against that.
For Christians the Gospel and the Commandments are critical but the most critical thing is striving to be Christ-like. Oddly enough Christ led by example (and a good example at that)… if you can find him being even remotely nasty about children then feel free to put it on here. The Old Testament is a very important part of Christian history but the violence in it is not permitted of Christians, I don’t know of any Christians who would say otherwise. But keep believing Christianity is about violence if it helps you sleep at night, what you think doesn’t change what Christians actually believe.
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For those that think a God (if there was one) would or should just bellow to everyone, make his presence well and truly known and tell everyone what to do, I’m just wondering why should or would a God do that?
If you were God would you see the point in making a Universe just to tell everyone what to do? That would just be one big power trip and would presumably become very unappealing very fast. Never mind that if we do all believe in free speech then presumably we would not be all that happy living in a world without free will also. It seems to me that such a Universe would just be completely pointless?
Also, particularly for Tobias, in allegedly ‘correcting’ people I guess all I’ve been trying to do is point out that experiences that are being related by people on here are not being taken in context with the era in which they occurred. Kind of important when accusing Christians of such heinous crimes that were far more to do with how society was back then than they were religion. It’s worth putting yourself in that era and thinking what it was honestly like… for instance, if you were there when it was first alleged that the world (your world remember) was actually round.
Also, I felt it important to point out that some people are tarring all Christians with one brush but would presumably be angry if that same thought pattern affected some complete stranger’s opinion of them.
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Leah, I am not the one saying that the bible etc is true, you are. I have nothing to prove because I cannot prove a negative. You on the other hand are claiming it all is true so prove it.
I have no personal truck with you for believing in something for which there is no credible evidence, but one difference between the god squad and myself (and it seems plenty others here) is that I have never ever had an uninvited athiest knock on my door and try to convince my of his views. I have never heard of an army going to war in an effort to make people believe that there isn’t a god. I wish the alternative were true.
Another difference between you and me is that I am open to change my mind if it is proven. If, for instance it could be proved that Mithras was indeed the true god and that the bible story was simply a badly plagiarised version of his life, how many christians do you think would ‘convert’ and turn their back on everything they had ever believed in? I reckon the christians would do all they possibly could to rubbish this real god, even turn to war – it wouldn’t be the first time. That is the truck I have with religion.
If you want to believe that trees are in fact alien spaceships – go ahead, fill your boots. Just stop trying to convince the rest of us that it is true and stop teaching it to our children as if it is fact.
So Leah, I wonder, would you kindly answer these questions.
1. There are and have been many religions and many gods. They can’t all be the real deal. How do you know you have chosen the right one?
2. How can you be certain that the others are wrong?
If I am wrong, and there is something on t’other side it will be a bonus and because I have not spent my whole life in the wrong teams colours I reckon I will be ok.
You on the other hand, you could be wrong in more than one way. On one hand you will return to a state identical to that had you never been born – no great shakes because you wouldn’t know anything about it but what a waste of a large chunk of your life. On the other hand, you might have been a cheerleader for the wrong side all along…..
As for the departed Dolans… Me aggressive?? You will be accusing me of persecution next.
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‘If you can find him being even remotely nasty about children then feel free to put it on here’
Math 15 Jesus to the Pharisees
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
The death penalty for being a gobby child – nice.
Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9
Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.” Matthew 10:21
Family values indeed
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Intolerance is rife in the bible and it is peppered with examples such as:-
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5
Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8
Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22
Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19
The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7
Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12
False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9
Here are my two personal favorites:
Everyone will have to worship Jesus — whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10
A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33
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Bambi, I accused you of being rude and insulting, which you were. Aggressive? Where did that come from? And why have you asked me those questions… oh, hang on a sec, I know why. It’s because you haven’t even read my posts! I am not religious. I don’t even believe in what you would probably class as a God. I do believe in free speech so have pointed out that some of you that claim to believe in free speech are not showing it through your actions.
Moi… what are you on about? You clearly haven’t read my posts either. I’ve not been defending anything… I’ve been pointing out that other people are being unnecessarily prejudiced while claiming to be all for free speech, it’s total hypocrisy and I would have pointed it out to the Christians had they been doing it. Also I’ve pointed out that they have been blaming Christians for things that were due to society not religion! I’ve pointed out some errors in their statements, is that starting conflict? Seriously? It seems to me like the fair thing to do to make sure both sides of an argument are stated. It is one thing to have a problem with religion but it is unbelievably childish to blame it for everything that happens and to tar all Christians with the one brush. If you have a problem with that then you are obviously not as sure of your ‘beliefs’ as you think you are.
Oh, and I’ve never had Christians knock on my door! I’ve asked around and no-one I know has either. I have had Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses but not Christians. Also I’ve had salesmen, politicians and people who were simply at the wrong door… frankly I think I’d rather have Christians to that lot.
And Moi… sorry to burst your bubble but I am a scientist so I can assure you that science and what we know changes constantly, hence science can’t actually be fact, it is only fact as we know it just now! Scientific progress often undoes things that we previously believed to be true.
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Bambi, you might want to re-read your last post and ask yourself if you are REALLY open to ANYthing. I have to admit that reading that post it doesn’t look to me like you are at all.
Moi,
Irony: the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning
There are plenty of people on here trying to convince themselves of whatever, I’m not one of them.
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I am very pleased to have been part of this blog.
I would like this kind of discussion to take place more often and in schools and even churches.
This topic should not be considered a taboo subject.
Does god exist ?
Why would anyone be upset by this question ?
Love and Peace.
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DOES GOD EXIST
Appears to be the question being asked ?
If IT (god) does then IT must have engendered the “Big Bang”.(evolutionists and creationists all agree there was a starting point. just a difference of a few billion years is the argument.
If IT does not then something else must have.
Till we have an answer to what it is,and I don’t mean the life works of some idiot who has nothing better to do than read books about deities that were written by other idiots who had nothing better to do than write them. (There was no earth yet alone a human being to write books before the bang.
As the human mind “is incapable” of fully understanding infinity, we have to give every thing a beginning and an end to try and understand them, probably due to us being finite ourselves.
Due to those limitations we can never understand something that always was and always will be (GOD ?).
Until someone or something comes along that can explain all to us ignorant specs I suggest we all live lives where so long as it hurts no one we do as we please.
Have Fun
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I am 100% atheist and proud to be one. The main problem I have with the bible is christians are told to follow the teachings of it, but it says such ridiculous things such as – Leviticus 20:13: If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
So why don’t christians in this day and age follow the bible in this way? I am glad they don’t, but if you are told to follow something, surely you don’t pick and choose what to follow!
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Who gives a monkeys what the bible said at the end of the day, as long as you have common sense, a degree of morality then you are fine… We have all evolved since all those years ago. Not only have we evolved but it is no longer a crime to have a higher state of consciousness and to be aware, false control has never served anybody right and going to church doesn’t automatically make you intelligent or a good person.
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Believe in yourself and you wont need to pass the buck all the time!!
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Bambi – you’ve clearly just copied and pasted those quotes from somewhere else on the web. If you had actually read the versus, you would see that the interpretations you have stated are not entirely accurate.
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As for your comment “It’s because you haven’t even read my posts!” If you had read mine you will see who the ‘aggressive’ comment was directed at.
I have read most of your posts Leah and while I may have missed the fact that you are ‘not religious’ having re-read them again I have to say it surprises me. I also missed you calling me rude and insulting, never mind I won’t lose sleep.
Isn’t this what debate is about, having opposing opinions and asking the other side to back up their argument with fact? Clearly not according to you Leah as you seem to think that if you say it, it must be right.
Ok then, Jesus did exist. Leah said so in the first post.
Group hug everyone
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Christians are to strive to be ‘Christ-like’ hence the ‘Christ’ part in the word ‘Christian’. Yes they are to read the whole Bible (much of which is their history) but they are Christians because they have chosen to follow Christ. Now Christ’s example was very clearly loving, giving and being tolerant, He did not do any of the atrocities in the Old Testament, in fact Christians believe Christ was sent to change all that. So thankfully, you’re not going to be able convince a Christian to kill you by shouting Old Testament verses at them!
I only say that because some people do seem to have a very odd idea of what a Christian is or should be. The amount of dodgy theology among atheists and agnostics is quite scary given the judgement they are handing down to others. You simply can’t be a Christian if you don’t follow Christ, I’ll admit that I thought that was plainly obvious, well it’s obvious to me and I’m not a Christian. If you don’t follow Christ but do accept parts of the Old Testament then you are possibly a Jew, or maybe some other religion altogether, or none even.
The problem is that many agnostics and atheists have their own prejudiced ideas of what a Christian is (often from 1 bad experience of someone calling themselves a Christian) and don’t actually bother to find out what an actual Christian is before feeling entitled to dole out judgement, ignorance, insults, and debate that isn’t even relevant to Christianity. It must be very frustrating for Christians when the people trying to argue with them aren’t even starting from the correct standpoint of what a Christian is.
Bernard, I guess the problem is you can’t take one (or even a hundred) statements out of the context of the whole Bible. Christians should read the whole Bible (as I said, much of it is their history) but unfortunately those arguing with them often don’t read it at all but just Google for statements they want to bring up in debate… which out of context mean nothing.
If you believe in a Christian God then you believe he sent Christ for a reason, and you choose to follow Christ and His example. Christ is only just mentioned in the Old Testament.
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Jude, that’s very true, but in this debate it was the agnostics accusing Christians of being mad, unintelligent and naive (with no basis of course)… it was outright rude and completely untrue. Namecalling is a common method that people use to try and bully those that disagree with them into saying nothing, while advocating free speech! Quite absurd. I didn’t see any of the Christians claiming superiority on those three topics.
I don’t agree about passing the buck however. Christians are meant to take responsibility for their own actions, they are not to hide behind others or their religion. Those supposedly fighting and killing in the name of a Christian God have no theological backing to do so. Unfortunately you can’t stop people claiming they follow a certain religion, it is common place in this world as people seem to want to ‘belong’ to something without ever actually following the rules that should then apply if they really were a follower! If someone doesn’t actually follow Christ, how can they be a Christian? If religion didn’t exist these same people that fight and kill would find some other reason to fight and kill, be it politics, science, race, jealousy… the list would be endless.
I do however see many people on this earth, particularly adults these days, that will blame everyone but themselves for their own actions. Like parents taking no reponsibility for wayward children, the Government taking no responsibility for any of its messes… an endless list again no doubt.
Again, it is a societal problem, not a religious one, and it’s probably going to get a lot worse before it (if it ever) gets better.
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ok I think Leah won the debate on the basis that she wrote over 4,000 words and unfortunatly Bambi was just over 3,000. in the absence of any other measure of the validity of the argument I suggest this is as good a way as any of settling it!
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I was a Christian for nearly 18 years (converted in my twenties) – born again, bible-reading, praying, speaking in tongues, hearing from God, carefully censoring everything in my life for evil influences, etc, etc, the whole shebang. For several reasons (such as an interest in quantum theory coupled with critical thinking, although I’m not a professional scientist, ahem) I eventually de-converted. So I am now an atheist with an understanding of Christianity – and, dare I say, the Bible?! – that can only be gained from being part of the club. I’m not going to argue against any of it however, because much academic, well-sourced and reputable information is readily available on the internet… and people need to make up their own minds.
What I would like to say is that I think the church actually occupies a much-needed stratum of society – I know many Christians who would just not be able to cope in the outside (secular) world and many others who receive support – emotional and financial – that would cost us the taxpayers, if those people had to rely on society for the same help. However that doesn’t mean there is a place for religion – ANY religion – in the running of State.
Incidentally, I do not consider myself better than believers – I know witty, intelligent, funny Christians, scholarly Christians with more qualifications than will fit after their name, who could run rings around many of the comments made here, as well as ordinary people like me who just happen to go church.
I have of course also met rude, pig-ignorant, self-righteous Christians who make daft statements without checking their sources (such as the pastor who preached that the word “luck” comes from the word Lucifer – a quick Google shows the real etymology of the word, sigh) or Christians who try to shove the Bible down your neck then shout “Persecution!” when you attempt to refute them…
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Boris, are you being a little bit facetious? It’s not a points scoring issue. I pointed out some facts that from the evidence presented people clearly weren’t aware of, this got their backs up because they are so open-minded, and the verbal bullying ensued. (That’s irony). Thankfully such behaviour reflects on them and not me.
Pastafarian… I really liked your last post. It’s the closest to where I’ve been at in my own experiences. Only thing I disagree with is Christians being unable to cope in the secular world; being needy etc. All people turn to family and friends when in need I imagine, but Christians will turn also to God while others may turn to superstition, alcohol, self-help groups… Is turning to God worse? I can’t see how it is and it doesn’t harm anyone else.
Maybe initially a higher percentage of ‘weak people’ head to a place of Worship because they believe the people there MUST love and care for them. But in my experience they fall away again quite quickly because they don’t actually believe (and usually when they don’t get their own way on something). They come and go. I’ve watched these people that are only looking for support follow a pattern of moving from one ’support group’ to another and so on. Sometimes it’s a religious group, sometimes not.
Those that go to Church because they are true followers of Christ can’t be any less able to cope with the ’secular world’ because they live in it same as you and I. Some of the Christians I know are published Geologists and Physicists, Doctors, Nurses, Addiction Workers, Rape Crisis Workers, Midwives, retired Consultant with MI9 and retired Mathematician with GCCS. I really doubt such people could ever be called ‘needy of support’, ‘unable to cope in the secular world’ or ‘naive’ (as said in another post), certainly not any more than non-religious people.
My own feeling is that real Christians have to be emotionally stronger than average to live in today’s society, but that’s just my personal experience of the many Christians I know.
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Bambi, My experience is fact to me obviously, as yours is to you, but you haven’t really talked from experience. I avoid quoting old texts where possible because all of them (religious or not) are simply too dated for us to have 100% certainty about their origin, nor did we know the writers personally (and so their motives or upbringing will always be in question). I speak from experience because that is the most factual thing a person can offer. I’m lucky to know and have known a heck of a lot of Christians, so I garnered a lot of experience from them. I also did some study of Theology because it interests me.
And I don’t trot out Googled stuff because the sources are too often dodgy or weighted to one side of the debate. But any questions to be found by googling, well they just are not going to be new to Christians.
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