Ken Pickett (pictured left) is 82 and is still going strong working at Red Triangle Stores in the Central Market. Picture: MATTHEW HOTTON (00802236)
JERSEY’S retirement age could go up to 68 because the ageing population is expected to empty the Social Security fund in just over 25 years.
A new report paints a bleak picture about the future of the fund, which pays the state pension, and says that although it is in a healthy position at the moment, there are serious problems ahead.
The review by the UK government actuary predicts that even allowing for immigration of more workers, an increase in the retirement age of three years and stopping supplementation for under-18s, the fund would be empty in 60 years.
At that point, instead of relying on a built-up fund, the money coming in would have to cover the money coming out. Without any changes, the fund would run out in 2036 and contribution rates would have to go up from 10.5% at present to around 16.3%.
Social Security Minister Ian Gorst says that Islanders have to decide how they want to deal with the problem. And he says that with people living longer, it might only be fair to expect them to work longer, too.
Article posted on 1st October, 2009 - 3.00pm
95 Article Comments
Didn’t see this one coming – they keep moving that carrot just out of reach. Next step will be 70, thank God I’ve got a critical illness and don’t have to worry about retirement.
How can you not have money in a fund that you’ve been paying into for your entire working life?
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Or stop employing so many Civil Servants on grossly inflated salarys with index linked pensions.
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Well the States are the ones that keep wasting our money on basic errors and management-heavy structures.
Surely they can fund our retirement from their own pocket, since there would be more money if they were more capable of doing their jobs.
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We should increase the contributions from the employed and make sure these are invested for THEIR future and not spent on the current pensioners. The sooner we admit that we have a problem and actually tackle it, the better for the future.
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well, there’s a surprise.
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well simple really… STOP GIVING PEOPLE MONEY WHO HAVEN’T EVER CONTRIBUTED! I am disgusted with the state of our social security system – taking money from people who never use the system and giving it to people who have never worked a day in their life!
I.E. Teenage mothers, mothers who have kids just to stay on social security (they are out there!) and my personal bug bear people that claim they are too depressed to work, yet go out drinking on the weekend. Depression is a serious illness and if you’re too depressed to work surely you’re too depressed to go out drinking with friends every weekend! I’ve been on anti depressents on and off since i was 13 and it’s never stopped me working.
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You having a laugh…stop taking the pppppppp and sort the issues out rather than making us work until we are 68 so when are we suppose to have a good life style……
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retirement will only be for the rich.
(1) keith , just a guess , it was very poorly invested?
hit by that sad old battle cry”market value adjustment”?
i expect to work till i drop, failing that there is always the rope.
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Personally I wouldn’t mind working longer. I am now less than seven years from the current retirement age and I feel if you rest you rust.
I need a reason to get out of bed in the morning. I quite like the idea of working until I am 68 years old as long as I remain fit and healthy.
I think if people want to work for longer, there shouldn’t be a compulsory age for retirement, except in certain jobs, eg. airline pilot, fire & rescue, police, driving public transport…….yes some will say, “Head in a cloud.”
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Well said Lula! Health departments spend a fortune on anti-depressants handed out to people with mild-depression even though it is well known that drugs have no effect on these people.
I have a very severe form of depression, I was only ever off work during the time they were trying to diagnose me and that was only because it presented as a heart condition and they were concerned I would keel over and die if I kept working. In fact, it masqueraded as a heart condition because I had kept working and kept pushing myself. Since then I have worked every bit as hard as I did before. I have also taken on study (at my own expense) to allow me to change career to one that will have less of an effect on my depression. Depression is actually hindered by not working and once diagnosed and treated people need to get back into work asap.
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Could this problem possibly be fixed by lowering the retirement age for States Members to 40?
(and enforcing it!)
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I think this is a disgrace!! as someone said earlier how can there be no money in a fund you have been contributing to all of your working life!! And i completely agree that it isn’t fair to be giving it to thise who haven’t ever contributed and who lie to stay on benefits! Whats gna happen in 30 or so years when it my turn to retire, are you going to put it up to 80? Will there be nothing for me because you’ve given all away or spent it on rubbish like you always do!! 68 what a load of rubbish, the states should be ashamed but i expect they will all get early retirement with their wages right?????
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No I’ll leave it thanks. Maybe those who love work could take up the slack for those of us who have a life to live?
I would take the cap off of scocial security, I am sure this would solve the problem. It is about time the high earners paid 6% like everyone else.
The main problem with social security is that it was designed on a “you pay for those ahead of you” system. All fine and dandy when there are more coming after you, what happens when there are less? D’oh hadn’t thought of that one. Or was it a case of lets take the money and leave the **** for someone else to sort out?
Also I am led to believe that when it was first introduced that those just retiring were given full pensions even though they had contributed little or nothing into the scheme. All very nice for the first ones but someone has to pay at the end of the day don’t they?
Thats another fine mess those in charge have got us into. Will those responsible be named and shamed?
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It makes me laugh how many turn coats express their opinions on here… you don’t like the immigration policy that brings in new young people who help fund the economy, you don’t like the banks or finance companies that pay huge amounts per year just for the pleasure of being on this expensive offshore location, you don’t like any policy that possibly means the States are spending less in the community, you don’t like GST, you don’t like reducing the length of time for people to gain their qualifications… why don’t you all put us out of YOUR misery and go somewhere you do find it all acceptable or accept the fact that in order to keep living in this beautiful safe island is going to come at some cost, and seeing how much people object to that cost being paid for from their wallets this is where we are at! Personally I would happily pay more GST, more fuel tax and stay here! I’ve heard it said many times on this forum and for the first time I’m saying it myself! There is a boat everyday! If you do not have something positive to add why comment, we can all see that raising the retirement age is not a good thing but I don’t see any GOOD ideas being put forward for how else to solve this bar firing people, Oh BTW the more people you fire the less that contribute to the economy! Take a class!!!
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No one is taking into account numbers of younger people looking for employment in an ageist society. Even the over fifties, let alone the over sixties, often find problems in gaining or keeping employment in Jersey. All that will happen is that a lot of out work people, who no one will employ, will be claiming Income Support and possibly getting more money than they would receive as a pension. People over 65 deserve to retire, if they so wish. If they want to improve their lot by continuing working then that is their perogative. Many people have little choice in having to keep working as they cannot survive on the State pension and have little private provision. They may have invested into pension funds that have gone wrong, have had misfortune or are a divorced women or man who brought up children and could not develop a career or perhaps start their scheme early enough as they thought that they would be part of a couple. These people have to struggle on working when they should really be enjoying their retirement. Delaying the Pension Age to 68 is discriminatory as it is the less fortunate who will suffer.
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The present crop of would-be retirees need not worry.Our polititions never take a blind bit of notice of any external report on conditions/standards in Jersey.And looming “black holes” are not visible when your head is firmly buried in the sand.
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that leaves us about 2 years free time before we snuff it
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Simple solution, make the seasonal and none locals take out private insurance to cover all of their medical & prescription needs!
No private health cover, no work, no accommodation = less of a burden on Social security, less cars, no need for huge car parks, less over population and more jobs for the locals!
There, what did that cost, 30 seconds of my time, can I get paid now!
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raise the ceiling you pay a percentage of whatever you earn no matter how high, this is the only fair way, this should have been done years ago
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Retirement will only be for the rich.
You could rephrase that as the seriously rich!
I know a woman who gave up work as a legal secretary a few years ago at 55.
She owns her flat, had a few hundred thousand in savings and a private pension.
She thought that it would be enough and she could spend at least a decade or two traveling the world and enjoying life.
She is now working two days a week at a convenience store to top up her income until interest rates come back up and she gets her States pension!
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‘I expect to work till I drop, failing that there is always the rope.’
A welcome injection of realism.
If you are in your forties and you are paying in to the States general or occupational pension or indeed any private pension scheme your chance of collecting on the advertised pension is likely to be nil.
The current pensioners are doing well but there is no chance of the next generation doing so well.
Cat food pie and a glass of British sherry in your declining years?
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Makes perfect sense that the retirement age should go up with life expectancy.
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Edna Cloud # 9..Well said; work is often more fun than fun itself. I live to live and remeber Mary Poppins theory about making a job a game, ‘Spoonful of Sugar’ etc….onwards and upwards folks, life is too short to worry. My nickname wasn’t Manic for nothing.
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Bring back the Victorian age….
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I cant believe anyone would want to work at 82!
Shouldnt the above gentleman be enjoying himself kicking up his heels & living the life of riley.
the truth is there should be an age limit how long you can work as to give the youngsters a break,Bruce forthsyth take note.
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There are improvements that can be made to the current system like removing the cap on contributions so those earning more than £35k (or whatever the cap is) continue to contribute above that but compared to the other places we are in a relatively good position compared to the amount of tax and social contributions we have paid.
Leah #3, The States can waste all the money they like – this is a separate pot of money so it wouldn’t make any difference (unless you refer to wasting social money).
Lula #6, Agreed – spot on. Socialism has a place in society, alongside free enterprise, and the welfare state is of benefit provided it does not create excessive anti-Darwinist tendencies.
David Brown #8, If it was such a poor investment how come our Social security payments have always been 1/2 of what people pay in the UK for National Insurance yet our future compares as well to theirs?
Jaime B #12, Unfortunately the system is the current working population pay for those currently retired. If we live longer after retirement we either increase contributions, increase the working force (which is why the States encourage population growth), increase retirement age or a combination of some or all of those.
Adrian #13, you keep threatening to leave yet you’re still here. Is it because you realise that every country has the same problem and that most are actually in a worse position? Admit it to yourself how lucky you are here – or may be your lack of action for moving already tells me that.
GMR #14 Spot on. Unfortunately we are surrounded by a bunch of ignoramus or those who like to whinge for the sake of it.
Personally if I don’t have a problem with working another 2 years if my life expectancy will increase by at least 2 years – no less fair than how retired folks have it today.
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GK
Your comment sums up the lack of understanding of how well we compare to our forefathers and is a disgrace to those who really have it hard elsewhere in the world. For the less better off western society today is utopia by comparison. In Victorian ages you would have had:-
- Rotting corpses on the street (normally out of wedlock children)
- No welfare at all – yes you certainly worked until you dropped and that was about the age of 40!
- no health and safety at work – deaths at from work related accidents massive
- work hard all day but no decent diet to compensate
- living in squalor
- No protection from crime
- No education
- wide spread racial and gender discrimination on a massive scale
- open cesspools
- thousands more diseases which have been irradiated today
- If you got one of those horrible diseases you received little if any medical help, even then doctors would generally do more harm than good.
- No transport to freely move around
- A society run by superstition over logic and scientific fact
The list could be 10 times as long but I’ll leave it to you to do your own research.
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GMR #14, if you believe that inward migration will solve the problem then you’re entitled to your opinion. I believe (from now knowing quite a number of these people and knowing what their future plans are) that this won’t solve the problem at all, in fact I believe it will simply cause a larger problem for future generations.
I’m quite happy to make big sacrifices now for future generations (even though none of them will be brought into the world by me) as long as the States stop wasting money.
Maybe you’re forgetting just how much money the States throw down the toilet? People have a right to be angry, it’s their money and it’s not going where they believe it should.
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Basic maths at play here.
Most people only start work these days at 22/23. They live to on average around 85 (though if born today, 50% are expected to reach 100).
So if you retire at 65, you spend 42/3 years at work, 22/23 years in education and 20 years retired. In other words, for each year you work, you live for 2 years.
No, doesn’t sound sustainable, does it? Add in the time off most women take around children, part-time work etc and the figures look worse.
Let’s face it, there was a golden age and we are coming to the end of it. The current batch of pensioners have had the best of all worlds but are still desperate to take what they can from their children and grandchildren.
But remember, it’s not the “retirement age” that will increase, it is the age at which a person receives a state pension.
The moral is that if you want to retire before 70 (I think 68 is optimistic) you need to save like crazy because you will need to fund it yourself. And basically, you need to be saving each year at least half the amount you think you’ll need as a pension. (42 years work, 20 years retirement – you do the maths)
Think of it like this – the coffee you buy in the morning or the pint in the evening will be a day without heating when you are old. Every little helps. Nobody else will.
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i paid my contributions when i worked in jersey,does that mean i can get a pension from jersey,i doubt it,and what about all the others that did so,money in the bank for you jersey folk,so we have helped towards your pensions!!
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Say No to these mean and spiteful policies and abolish the gold plated govt type pensions instead.
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Leah Holmes # 28 makes the point to the effect the States throw away good money after bad….it was always thus Leah and sill we vote for inept and self serving individuals at the elections.
The problem is all the people who whinge on this site won’t put themselves forward for election to the States and then fight for the sort of government they want to see. The void is then filled by people we then deem to be the nincompoops we now have in charge.
If you want a job doing properly as they say…………
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joker, in my post i said the word “guess”.
there was something in the post about a “fund”
of tax payers money that had a poor return for years.
but at that time , the public had got to hear about civil servants suspended on huge sums of money, travel expenses, a host of blunders,
the list appeared endless, and at one point it was up to 2.5 million plus , before we were informed of the incinerator, euro losses, which may or may not pull back.
before i retire i expect another wall street crash of some form or another.
the “age of turbulance” is on us.(greenspan)
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Think about it, the figures just don’t stack up. Just consider what an 82 year-old receives per week as a pension, and multiply that by 52 weeks and 17 years of being retired. I can guarantee they never contributed the same amount of money into the fund during their working life. It’s not the States fault, we are simply living too long. I’d like to see a public debate on euthanasia, because that would the first step to solving Jersey’s problems
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And the more you try and kerb smoking the longer we will all live, the nanny cant have it both ways!
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It is time Social Securitygot their house in order here are a few examples of where our contributions go. Tens of millions paid yearly to overseas recipients on sickness benefit. Majority of these have not lived in the island for years and no follow up checks ever carried out. I know of people on well paid salaries who for some reason receive disability benefit because they are entitled to it! Transport allowance paid to elderly people without any means testing, many never use it for taxi’s but on other things. I am sure there are numerous other examples.
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Carly 24 – Remember the employer also contributes a greater percentage that the employee into the fund.
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mad foetus posted “But remember, it’s not the “retirement age” that will increase, it is the age at which a person receives a state pension.”
The two are linked as most are dependent on the state pension to get out of the rat race. Even more so now that decent work pensions are being erroded or replaced with rubbish ones. If anyone is without an indexed linked final salary pension they are in for a rough retirement. Now the state wants to kick the workers in the **** as well!
joker I don’t remember saying I wanted to leave maybe you could point it out to me?
I was brought up in an age where promises were honoured, not like today where anything goes. This is the main issue I have with raising the retirement age. 65 is the finish line and it should be honoured. It is not my fault that others have have messed up and it shouldn’t be me that is penalised. We were even told that by 50 the future generation would be retired due to computers and advancements in employment etc! It appears to have been total BS doesn’t it?
I say get the rich paying their fair share and take the cap off of social security then there probably wouldn’t be the need for this just like there wasn’t a need for GST.
The major problem with this system is that the next generation pays for the previous one. What happens when there is more at the end than the beginning like in 20-30 years time? Someone is responsible for this mess and should be held to account.
The only logical answer should have been for each generation to pay for itself, then these issues wouldn’t be been a problem would they?
As a remedy to this shambles I would take 6% of the big earners salaries which I am sure would solve the problem. If there is any short fall I would raise contributions to cover retiring at 65.
Lets face it most can’t stomach work for a moment longer than necessary. Raising it will just lead to more sickness as people take the easier option. As each year gets worse at work people will resort to more and more sickness to get by.
I know of quite a few who are adamant they will be getting their pensions at 65 come what may. This issue could led to problems and civil unrest over here. Wind people up enough and they will react.
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Agreed no 18. Non locals, especially seasonal workers, should have the option to ‘opt out’of social security and make private arrangements.
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Perhaps Cathy has forgotten that the pensioner’s employer was also contributing and would, I am sure, have taken that into account when paying the pensioner. Also the pensioner was paying for the pensions of the over 60’s when he was young! The money would have also gone into an investment fund. Get real Cathy and remember that in time to come you too will be the pensioner. Have a bit of respect.
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Mad Foetus 29.
Your “basic maths” does not add up!
“Most people only start work these days at 22/23. They live to on average around 85 (though if born today, 50% are expected to reach 100).
So if you retire at 65, you spend 42/3 years at work, 22/23 years in education and 20 years retired. In other words, for each year you work, you live for 2 years.”
What a load of rubbish. Most people actually start work in their teens and I would actually accept the average age as more in line with 70-odd than 85 – more realistic me thinks.
If you retire at 65 with 42/3 years at work, 22/23 years in education….does that mean you went to school straight from your mothers womb
My god your are a special one !
No-one should rely on a State pension if they can help it, but someone who has worked and contributed for more than 40 years is surely entitled to their share and have some retirement time to rest & enjoy there twilight years…….not work them into the grave so some incompetent civil servant can claim their 2/3 last salary pension!!!
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Carly #34
I know some readers will be a little shocked at your tone, but you have a valid point.
Jersey’s population(in line with the rest of the world) is growing, and pension funding is a real worry for many nations.
So, whilst we talk about immigrants being a big problem for our tiny island, realistically, the big problem is very old residents draining our resources, not workers just arriving off the boats
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BS,
The news today said if you are born in 2009 there is a 50% chance of reaching 100. Predictive, of course, but more accurate than your fag packet calculations.
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19. Dave – exactly – raising the ceiling is such a simple and fair solution – everyone would then be paying the same percentage and they’d make more money that way. Not going to happen though – too many people with vested interests and they never take the simple approach – just wham the middle taxpayer every time.
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Keeping the existing system afloat will require either increasing taxes and the retirement age, or cutting public spending on health and education.
But before carrying out major surgery on health and education, the States should seriously think about putting an end to “last-salary” related pensions for States employees. These people are no different to anyone else and should be provided with the same level of protection as the rest of the population.
The aim of the pension system is to protect vulnerable elderly people from economic hardship…and not to maintain relatively high-living standards of “the chosen few” in retirement.
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The statistics actually prove that since about the 60s the average lifespan hasn’t gone up at all. I’ve seen the figures and analysed them myself. What is going up is the cost of healthcare since most women are having to work and aren’t available to care for the elderly. This is the problem to be tackled and making people work longer means that even less women are going to be available to look after the elderly.
A more flexible approach to the carers’ allowance might help the situation as well as tax cuts for carers perhaps? Surely it costs less for someone to stay at home as a carer than it does to put an elderly person into a nursing home?
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MF 29
The first 20/23 years of a young adults life will in most cases be taken care of by their working parents. They then work for 40 odd years, contributing to the system and if they are lucky enough to be able to retire for 20 years then they are only getting what they are entitled to (i.e. their 40 years of contributions).
So what exactly is your point!!??
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Not really sure we’re going to see 50% of people living to 100 given the predicted increases in obesity, this is one study I would really like to see the raw data for.
As for euthanasia, I’m not sure many elderly people would take that decision so it probably wouldn’t help much, it would also mean public money being spent on the investigations into each individual case. After all you cannot permit euthanasia without realising that such a law will be abused.
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Carly 32
I had to smile at your comment, it’s a comical point of view to say the least.
However, although I agree with physician-assisted suicide in situations where the patient wishes to put an end to life-sustaining treatment and misery, that’s as far I can go with euthanasia.
I’m aware that as medical capabilities grow, it will become almost “hard to die”, but the choice of “staying or going” should be left up to the individual or nature. One of the most beautiful things in life is the freedom to make our own decisions and choose the path our lives take…so maybe you should start thinking about how to fill the coffers rather than the coffins!
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MF 43
Judging by your poor grasp of “basic maths” I would hazard a guess that your “news” source may actually be less reliable then my “fag packet calculations”…..which considering I don’t smoke is quite ironic
Besides, predictive statistics are utterly useless because you can never know what will happen in the future……..if there is a 50% chance of reaching 100 then that obviously means there is a 50% chance you won’t !!
Now do you understand the technique of spin?
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BS,
Think it through. You say the first 22/23 years of life are funded by parents. I have made the assumption that most people will be parents, and so the benefit they receive themselves they will have to fund to provide for their children: hence the position is cost-neutral.
But no, you’re right. there’s loads of money to go around and every government in the world has miscalculated. Hopefully they’ll all come to you and you can explain why you are correct.
A levels were still pretty good when I got a grade A in one, by the way.
Nellie,
If your own analysis suggests that life expectancy hasn’t gone up since the 1960s, I suggest you tell the UK office of national statistics, as like BS you seem to be an expert in this area.
Here are the UK figures (albeit predictive), if anybody wants to consider some facts: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=881
Oh, and average age at death in affluent areas is already over 80: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7679234.stm
Sorry to let the facts get in the way of prejudice.
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The hard facts are that with people living longer due to medical intervention, we are clogging up the planet and many of the current issues regarding pensions and pressures on housing are caused by people living significantly longer.
I am in my late 40’s and have a young son, who is able to enjoy all four of his gradparents, who are in the age range of 76 to 85.
50 years ago, with the health issues for which his grandparents have had treatment for over the years, all four would have been dead by now. It is also quite possible that my wife and son would have both died in childbirth, had he been born in the 1940’s.
My father’s dad worked until he was 65 and was dead by 71 and that is how pensions used to work.
While I don’t wish to be morbid, these are, I am afraid, the real reasons why we have the pension provision issues of today.
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Carly (34)Do you intend doing away with yourself once you pass a certain age so that you won’t be claiming too much pension compared to what you have paid in? No,I think you may see it differently by then!
I know of two ladies of ninety who are the most energetic,interesting and amazing people.They are both excellent company and in good health.I think the majority of taxpayers would be happier to see these ladies getting their pension rather than all the benefits that are handed out to some of the lazy,pathetic specimens who have never paid a penny in and probably never will.And yes I do know there are some genuine cases whereby people cannot support themselves but it is certainly not always the case.
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Increasing the population to counteract the effects of an ageing population is not realistic. It is a mathematical nonsense becuase it simply dumps a bigger problem on to our kids.
Politicians are both irresposible and ignorant for believing the rubbish that is being peddled by the COM’s.
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Thanks everyone, especially Carly
I know it’s wicked, but this article has made me laugh more than any other in ages
Poor Ken Pickett, he’s probably told all his friends & family that he’s going to be in the JEP, to find people on here are talking about euthanasia!
I know I shouldn’t laugh, but I almost spat my coffee out when reading Carly’s post
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MF
Regardless of whatever government stats have been concocted to give their argument some substance, if someone has contributed to their state pension for however long then they are entitled to claim this in their retirement.
Maybe if the states looked at all the benefits being splashed out to all and sundry and made sure it was only the needy who received them then more money could go in the pension pot.
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“if someone has contributed to their state pension for however long then they are entitled to claim this in their retirement.”
BS – I agree. But if you have earned an average wage and paid in 6% a year in soc sec payments for 40 years then don’t expect anything more than 12% of the average wage when you retire for 20 years.
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It sickens me my girlfriend and I work 100 hrs a week between us and struggle to make ends meet. We pay over 60% of our wages on crumby accomodation. We know a couple who both can’t be bothered to work but receive what can only be described as a huge amount of money every month from Social Security they have every luxury item you can imagine.
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I know of parents on benefits who send their kids to school in a taxi. How can that be right? No wonder there is no money in the pot and we are all having to pay more.
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David brown
Agree with the frivolous spending but like I said to Leah – the monies used for the incinerator and suspensions etc are separate to the Social Security monies. I believe they are held in a separate fund protected by law that cannot be touched by the States for anything but social security benefits.
Adrian
May be you didn’t say you were going to leave – you contradict yourself so often I’m not sure where you stand. You were brought up in an age where promises were kept?! Again delusional the old days were better than today – there were as many scandals going on in the 60’s as there are today – face that fact. And again you contradict yourself saying that people held their word back in your day but you were conned by the futurists of your day into believing you’d retire at 50!
If you are near retirement age then stop fretting – this won’t apply to you it will apply to the younger generation in their 20s may be 30s, the majority who will accept the situation as par for the course (and will be funding your retirement). If you can’t stomach to work longer than necessary get a job you like, go back to school if need be. Personally I quite enjoy my job – not saying I wouldn’t rather be on a beach somewhere but I’m realistic. I agree the cap should be taken off but it will not affect GST – like I said above the two are completely separate and neither monies, whether income or expense can cross paths.
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for the comments on the maths – let’s say you start work at 18 and retire at 65, that gives you 47 years of working. Thats 564 months of working. Currently I earn 20K a year (not much and bear in mind i’m only 23 – this wage will go up each year meaning the amount I contribute will go up as well but for the sake of argument I will use this amount)
Each month I pay £125 and my employer pays £175 (all employers match employee’s contributions and in my case they add a percentage of their own) bringing my total social security contributions to £300 a month. 300 a month multiplied by 12 = £3600. £3600 multipled by 47 years = £169,200.
Now if I retire at 65 and live till i’m 85 that’s 20 years. Average pension is around £100-£150 a week. £150 multiplied by 52 = £7800 a year multipled by 20 years and that = £156,000
soooooo what is the problem again? This is based on earning 20K a year which is well below the average wage… Working at Mcdonalds gives you £15K a year which goes up each year you work there.
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Further to comment 36 by CJ. Tens of millions paid to overseas recipients. Further to this how many of these people are actually alive? There was an example a few years ago of a woman still claiming her mother’s sickness benefits years after she died. I do hope Social are actively monitoring these people and are sure they are not working abroad whilst claiming. Also people who claim benefits and come into money through say inheritence are they obliged to pay any money back into society or declare their new found wealth?
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Agree on unmarried mothers on benefit taking the mick.
I know two sisters with seven kids between them and have no intention of ever working and are given housing and hand-outs left right and centre.
one even had the cheek to say it is the pensioners who cost the most to keep.
I gave her a mouthful and told her i had worked for over half a century and had paid for my own pension.
i don,t know where these people get the idea they are paying for our pensions.
The only thing they should be given free is the contraception pill.
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Why can’t Social Security find more people that are dodging work and make them go out to get jobs. There are so many people on this island getting free money for doing nothing when they are very capable of working. It’s sick. One person I know had their heating on in the summer. When I asked why, she said that her heating is paid for by social security and she didn’t want to turn it off in case social didn’t put it back on. Insanity!
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I have worked (and contributed) my 45 years but cannot receive a pension until I am 65 (male)another 4 years to go unless I take a reduced pension at 63! Why I have served my time! Why shouldn’t I retire then or even now on the same money that a 65 year old who has worked 45 years like me. Why do women retire at 40 when they live longer than men. Clear discrimination and the States know it but do nothing about it. I cannot even get a bus pass despite paying in all these years! Work until you drop!
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#54 Phil, totally agree, I’ve pointed that one out already but I think the States Members only actually care about those of us that are alive right now, not those that will come in the future.
#60 Joker, although the funds are indeed different any money that is wasted is still ultimately taken away from where it is needed. Were this money not wasted there would always be a way to ensure that it benefitted all of society in the long run, even if not directly used for pensions (i.e. subsidising transport etc)
Rob’s comments are great, and all the others about how SS waste money on people who are undeserving.
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#32 Edna, I don’t even have a vote here yet so not much I can do. I do make any suggestions that I believe could be workable to the States though, people should really. That does involve looking at all the possible pros and cons though and many posters on TIJ tend to only look at one side of the argument.
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Hi Bob #30 as far as i know if you have paid into the system then you are entitled to what ever percentage of the percentage that you paid in so for example if you worked for 42 years but paid in only 6 months of the year into Jersey then went to the Canaries for the other 6 months then today you are due 1/2 the pension of todays rate regardless of where you live today
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The answer is to put a strong tough no nonsense politician in charge of this department (No offence Dep Gorst) Someone like Terry Le Main would be ideal.
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The first post includes this astonishing statement:
“thank God I’ve got a critical illness”
What a peculiar thing to say; as I get older (I am 35 at present) I pray every day for good health.
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This subject is being discussed in the UK even as we speak, so it is not unique to Jersey
I would question whether the ‘ageing population’ is the problem – howabout all those low paid immigrants who are receiving welfare payments, even though they have only been here 5 years. How are they contributing if they cannot keep themselves withough handouts?
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magnlioa man(70) maybe keith has come to terms with his own mortality(sad tale isnt it).
and is making a statement, that “life” in the future of jersey as a person with only a state pension, it was better to pass away quickly.
there are a lot of people out there who had to spend every penny on the mortgage, so did not have a top up from their employers pension scheme, as there was not one, and had no spare cash to put in to a personal pension. and look bleakly at what they are about to recieve.
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71…exactly.
The states have created a workshy, chav under society whose only goal in life is to squeeze out as many sprogs as possible in order to secure state accommodation and handouts!
The states have wasted our tax money on errors, thrown it away at stupid projects and given it away to undeservers!!
I would not doubt for one minute that they’ve been dipping into the pension pot under some other pretence to fund such stupidity!
An ageing population has got nothing to do with it. If I’ve worked ; paid in for 40 years then retire at 65, I have until 105 years old to claim the money I paid in. That’s the way it should be….and if you want a more luxurious retirement then you make additional plans yourself – no brainer.
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‘The answer is to put a strong tough no nonsense politician in charge of this department (No offence Dep Gorst) Someone like Terry Le Main would be ideal.’
Maybe not Terry le Main.
He has been in charge of Housing for years but it was recently judged not fit for purpose and the advice was that the department should be broken up.
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72 DB
That may be true, but at least they will have a nice asset in their property….average house approx £1/2 million. That is a hell of a lot more than most people will have!
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Not enough to pay us back now…and yopu can thank in large measure your esteemed current chief minister…what we really have here is pathetic amateur government…and it is breaking up at the seams….we ought to simply have a tax and social security strike…till they can prove to us that correct monies are safely ringfenced and that the system is worthy of participation…fancy paying in all your life and these freeloaders are sitting on their butts laughing at us.don’t give them more of your money to squander.
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I’m happy to work for as long as I remain fit. I don’t fancy sitting around doing nothing with less income to play with, I’d rather be busy doing a job I enjoy (if that’s still possible) earning my keep.
I don’t see that retirement should be a reward for still being alive after x years. If you’re fit to work but living off the state then you’re spongeing in my opinion. Obviously this doesn’t apply to the frail and unfit, before people start taking offence at the idea that I might be suggesting that care home residents should be working – that’s not what I’m saying at all!
If people are living way longer than they used to, I see no problem with raising retirement age a year or three.
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I think it should stay as it is. It is wrong to raise it to 68. Tax the rich a bit more and take the cap off of social security that should sort it out.
People desire respite from the work ethic, they shouldn’t be forced to work till they drop. A lot more will be dropping before their 68th birthday if this draconian scheme is passed. People want things to get better not worse. Work stress is on the rise, doing this will only unset people even more. The thought of three more years druggery may well be too much for some to contemplate.
How anyone can think that it is good to work for longer is beyond me. Surely free time to do what you want with is preferable to the ball and chain of work? However I am not opposed to those who have nothing better to do with their lives and wish to work till the end, but let those that have better things to do with their time get some enjoyment before the grim ripper cuts them off.
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78
Well said, Adrian. Those that have nothing better to do than work themselves to the grave are free to do so in my opinion, but not everyone is that unambitious or unadventurous.
I would like to be able to relax for the short while I have left and maybe even travel to far away places without fretting about squeezing everythinbg in for the annual 2 week holiday before I have to get back to my desk and continue working!
There is more to life than work!
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Bella
Not much point in giving free contraception pills to people who benefit from not taking them. I believe if you are a single mum breeding like a rabbit you should have enforced contraception not sure what its called for women but the equivalent of a vasectomy for men. Obvioulsy I would only advocate it under proper regulations but when you are breeding 4 or more children yet are living the single life on benefits then its time they are forced to stop having any more.
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I have suspected for a while that the much vaunted rainy day fund has actually been spent and that there IS no reserve…anyone able to correctly contradict this….?
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magnolia man (70).
maybe keith is as fit as a fiddle , and was talking about critical illness cover(a personal cover), paid by himself.
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TS #81, was it not just a few months ago they kept ‘finding’ money?
Do any of them actually know what they are doing? or does money just appear and disappear in front of their eyes and get allocated to/from whatever they happen to be thinking about at the time?
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I spoke on here a while back about a young couple I knew who had to get married because of the 5 yr rule well heres the update:
They got married, they now live (Husband wife and baby) in a states flat they get their rent paid plus £265 a week, i believe there rent would be circa £200 a week, so in order to maintain their states funded lifestyle he would have to earn £465 a week, he has no academic qualifications so theres not much chance of that
Well done States of Jersey good to know my tax is being well spent, remember on top of that they get free doctors / dentists etc
No wonder this Island is in such a state
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This was mentioned a while ago, that when we reached retirement age that there would be no money in the pot.
We have been paying all our lives, my mum died at 53 she paid just over 30 years, where have her contributions gone, my dad lived her for nearly 30 years he paid and all the other people that have lived here and paid and then left or people that have paid and died before retirement.. Including people who have lived here all there lives.
WHERE HAS THE MONEY GONE!!!! Some one needs to answer that question. Surely the pension POT should be only for paying peoples pensions!! Or am I being stupid
NO only single mothers on benefits, or people on anti depressants, what about those on disability benefits, I see SO many people who look wasted coming out of the Social every day, get them into REHAB and back into a job be so much cheaper then funding their habits and keeping them at home.
Give people their self respect back by making it harder to get ALL these benefits and get them back out there working.
If they refuse then cut their benenfits. There has to be consequences and LOGICAL procedures in place.
Any one who has been on benefits longer than 6 months to a year why.. Re-asses them.
Disability, get them properly checked out by a doctor
Why should we work for an extra 3 years.. Retirement is when my life will begin, no children to worry about, I want to travel the world, do things that i HAVEN’T had a chance to do in my youth. I am sure there are ways round this.
Stop spending money on stupid hotels along the front the look awful and smell like a hospital, road works that don’t really need to be done.
People on benefits that do not need to be on benefits. List is endless
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“WHERE HAS THE MONEY GONE!!!!”
asked Michelina.
Well, I guess quite a lot of it has gone into providing yachts, luxury accomodation, gourmand(sic) food, recreational drugs, loose women and all other forms of riotous living for an ever increasing number of people from all over the world who are ruthlessly living it up on other peoples money.
The saddest aspect of this is that the people whose savings are being used to fund these lifestyles tend to admire those who are doing it – thanks to celebrity culture and media manipulation.
Be certain that plenty of clever ruthless people are having a ball with other peoples savings whilst pretending to look after them. But that’s all right isn’t it because it’s good for business.
In contrast, the couple described by Gary #84 are mere whipping boys conveniently taking away attention from the above scenario which is going on a massive scale worldwide.
Worse still, its unlikely to change!
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Situations like the one Gary (84) mentions are not rare and are a launching pad for future “economically-inactive” citizens.
Subsidized housing promotes “States dependency” and “States dependency” is hereditary.
How many “benefit-drawing” young men/teenage mothers are from hard working families?
Very few!
Jersey’s welfare system is creating a breed of unemployable individuals who will pass on the “recipe-for-poorness” to their children…and unfortunately, it can take as many as three generations to break free from poverty.
Of course these people need States help, but it is far better to teach them how to fend for themselves. So why not provide them with free nursery/child care while they train or go out to work, and may be even house them in rent-to-buy properties which will give them a goal in life.
All other solutions encourage them to sit back and wait for hand-outs…which in the long run are highly detrimental to them, their children and society.
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86
Well it’s about time it DID change.
Why can’t we take legal action against these people who are effectively stealing our money?
The government needs to explain why the money is missing and if it has been misappropriated then we need them to get the money back and then we need to change the corrupt government.
Laws are there for a reason….even governments can’t hide from them!!
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#86 Rozel, you make a very good point.
While those who ‘work hard’ and work ‘long hours’ genuinely believe they have earned their ridiculous salaries, it is in fact the case that the majority are being ripped off to pay them these 6-figure salaries. They’re correct in believing that if someone else gets that salary then they should also get it for doing the same job, however, they don’t seem to realise that no-one should be getting such a salary in the first place, unless they have managed to find more hours in the week!
They will argue market forces but it’s a rather wishy-washy defence. They’ll claim that their money comes from other rich people, but ignore that those people became rich by overpricing products and fleecing the public.
Same old, same old, and, as you say, it’s not going to change because the rich hold more sway over politics than the poor.
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Truthseeker 81
Check the States published accounts – The RDF is still there and around the £600m mark and growing but not as fast as it could be and now minus £10m to pay for a town park
The RDF is also separate to the social fund so neither affects the other.
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Anybody not born in Jersey shouldn’t get benefits. We should give them 2 weeks of food and leave them on the minkies. Any of them resourceful enough to find their way back, should be resourceful enough to get a job.
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78 & 79 I agree with you and I would also like to add then when people are free from paid work and start to relax and enjoy their retirement they often take up unpaid charitable work to suit their time and give a lot back to the community. As I said on another post a few weeks back – it’s good to have freedom of choice.
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90
If the Rainy Day Fund is at £600m then why isn’t any of it being used to help ease taxation on the public during these hard times. Also, £600m can go a long way to providing a decent low-cost bus service to improve traffic congestion and save us all a few quid on petrol, parking etc in the process too.
It’s not raining now…….in my opinion it’s pouring!
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Beaumont 91
So foreigners who have worked and paid their dues for years shouldn’t get benefits, but fresh-from-school single mothers should be kept for life just because they were born in Jersey.
No, I’m sorry, but I can’t agree with that. However, your Minkies-survival-project for the “work-shy” is well worth considering!
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Born Warrior said
“Beaumont 91
….your Minkies-survival-project for the “work-shy” is well worth considering! ”
Well, I would happily shy away from work in return for 2 weeks on the Minquiers with food provided.
Then I’d sign on with a French fishing boat!
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