Senator Ben Shenton
FORMER Health Minister Ben Shenton has attacked the decision to offer the drug Tamiflu to healthy children as part of the attempt to control swine flu.
In a letter published in today’s JEP, Senator Shenton writes: ‘Under no circumstances should Tamiflu be given to healthy children, as it would have no benefits, only side effects.’
His letter also says that ‘predictions of death and disruption’ made last year by Medical Officer of Health Dr Rosemary Geller were ‘a little hysterical’.
In 2007, when he was Health Minister, the Senator tried to block funding of over £500,000 for supplies of Tamiflu but discovered that the stocks of the drug had already been acquired.
Dr Geller was unavailable to comment on Senator Shenton’s views.
Meanwhile, the swine flu vaccine is now being made available to children under school age who do not attend nursery.
Health announced the new round of jabs for those aged between six months and five years yesterday as the numbers of school-age Islanders being treated for the illness continued to rise.
Article posted on 20th November, 2009 - 3.00pm
98 Article Comments
I wholeheartedly agree with Mr Shenton on this particular subject.
Theres a lot of scaremongering going on without substance,and the consequences of taking a vaccine that has had little time on the market without its possible side effects is detrimental.
Times are hard in a recession,and drug companies stand to make a fortune out of playing on peoples
emotions and thus exploiting there fears.
The Polish prime minister Donald tusk isnt enthusiastic on having this vaccine thrown at his people due to its short time on the market and possible consequences,this also applies to the over use of antibiotics which when over administered do not work,and indeed agravate the stomach and can lead to inflamatory bowel disease.
Doctors have a responsability to help and not play god with peoples lives.
Its interesting to note that many of the children
given the vaccine have gone on to develop swine flu, where as those that have not recieved the vaccine are ok.
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Rosemary Gellar has single handedly blown the Swine Flu issue out of all proportion with her scare mongering predictions of epidemics and numerous potential deaths.
Parents are by nature obsessed with their children’s health and she is playing to this weakness. Predictably they are responding to her outpourings of doom by rushing to protect their little darlings whether they need it nor not!!
In the post yesterday I received a free thermometer so that I would be be able to tell whether my “little darling” had swine flu or not.
The first problem with this total waste of tax payers money is that I happily don’t have a “little darling” to get stricken about. Those that do should surely have gone out and bought a thermometer already if they were that concerned.
And secondly – I totally object to my tax contributions being used to fund other peoples’ childrens health obsessions.
I don’t know if Senator Ben Shenton’s objections will do any good, but it is comforting to know that at least one of our politicians have a brain.
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Senator Shenton is absolutely correct about the MOH’s over zealous standpoint bordering on hysteria.
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The only thing Ben Shenton seems to do is criticise others instead of making any good decisions and ideas himself. I do however completely agree with what he wrote about Dr. Geller.
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How fortunate we are to have Dep shenton…his skills know no barrier. Now he is able to tell the Chief Medical offier that not only is her medical advice incorrect, but that her concerns are ‘hysterical’. I am, once again, confounded by the arrogance of our elected menbers
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Damned is she does, damned if she doesn’t!
Time will tell.
I just wish our elected deputies, senators and other alike would stop criticizing and bringing staff morale down even further.
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“FORMER Health Minister Ben Shenton has attacked the decision to offer the drug Tamiflu to healthy children as part of the attempt to control swine flu”
Wow he’s a sharp cookie, I thought it was to get rid of excess stocks. Dr Gellar can’t win, if she doesn’t provide the drug people will accuse her of negligence, if she does she’s overreacting, can’t imagine why Shenton would be critical ( unless perhaps he wants the job back ) I’ve had the jab and I’m glad I have, better safe than sorry. Drugs are not released onto the market without thorough testing, it’s not like Thalidomide and Tetracicline from the sixties and I should know I was given Tetracilcline.
Dr Gellar is a qualified physician and not a quack, what’s Shenton’s speciality?
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well done that man what a load of rubbish this all is. Coincidently has anyone noticed that ALL the batches of this wonderful product run out in Jan 2010 and that they were actually manufactured in 2005 !!!!!!!! so this was made for ?????? swine flu ????? i dont think so……it was made for bird flu dont believe me then goggle the batch number on the box !
I am soooo pleased my kids did not have the Jab or take the drugs.
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We have bought enough Tamiflu to treat every islander at a cost of £500,000.
If 80% of it is unused and has to be disposed of next year when it goes out of date will anybody admit that they bought far too much?
No.
The simple problem with the States is that there is near zero accountability for anything.
Millions are wasted and nothing happens.
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Having Wikipedia’d Ben Shenton in search of his medical qualifications I was sadly disappointed in the on-line fountain of all knowledge as although Senator Shenton has his own page highlighting his financial acumen and funds under management it makes no mention of his medical qualifications.
Dr Rosemary Geller however has no Wikipedia entry so I have no idea how much she has in funds under management, she does however have the word Doctor in front of her name and one would assume that the States checked her CV and references before employing her, we can at least assume some level of medical competence if not investment experience.
Am I wrong in assuming that Dr Geller might just be a tad more qualified to advise on medical matters than Senator Shenton? Or do the examinations for membership of the Securities and Investment Institute contain a module on public health which he actually took and passed?
Assuming for the purpose of this diatribe that Senator Shenton has no medical qualifications I would suggest that he spends the next seven years getting the necessary qualifications to practice as a junior doctor and then maybe his comments might carry slightly more weight that they do now.
Having gone from perfectly healthy to a what I considered to be a mild case of flu, then having the vaccination (as I am considered ‘at risk‘), then having swine flu diagnosed, then being prescribed Tamiflu, all in less than a week I should surely have at the very least have grown two heads, then self-immolated in the Royal Square whilst singing ‘I’m a Lumberjack and I’m OK’!
I do, of course, admit to having no knowledge of the medium-to-long term effects so I will keep you posted.
It is arguable that swine flu is different from the seasonal flu we suffer every year with minimal attrition. Medical authorities worldwide live in dread of new strains that cross the species barrier (animal to human). It is these viruses that pose the greatest risk.
Spanish Flu in 1919 killed up to six percent of the world’s population. This was not due to the vicissitudes of WW1 it was down to the fact that the virus caused our immune system to attack our own bodies. People bled from their ears and mouth and drowned from fluid filled lungs. If the flu did not kill them then a secondary bacterial infection often did.
Whilst we now have better medical care (thanks to the like of Dr Geller and not financial services professionals such as Ben Shenton) we will one day suffer a virulent strain of flu which will kill millions.
Dr Geller and her colleagues do not have the benefit of second sight. They have to treat every cross species flu virus as if it was as lethal as the 1919 outbreak. When is everyone going to wake up to the fact that medicine is not perfect, those doctors are doing their best to protect as many of us as is possible and that whatever he says, Ben Shenton and his ilk, do not have to make the final decision, all they have is the luxury of hindsight. The protection of the island’s population is never going to laid at his door, it is already the purview of one Dr Geller who is doing her best.
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Senator Shentons remarks now beggar the question why did he not come out with this sooner rather than later.
Shutting the stable door??….
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I haven’t consented to my 7 year old daughter having the swine flu jab and will not let her have it anytime soon. As for Tamiflu I would not go anywhere near it as people I have spoken to have all been as sick as a dog after taking it.
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If Thicko Micko “had the jab” then he had the vaccine and not Tamiflu. Tamiflu is a powerful drug, usually in tablet form, that is used to treat persons that actually have contracted swine flu. Obviously it is OK to give the vaccine to healthy people – the decision to give Tamiflu is rather strange and questionable. It shows how poor the information flow has been if Thicko Micko does not even know what he was injected with.
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Whilst supporting Senator Shenton’s statement why did he and Senator Perchard not address the issue when they were in charge of H&SS.?
Everyone is correct in the over-zealous,scare mongering of the MOH,who,if you take note,has no opinion of her own,only that of the UK policy.Her spending since she became MOH knows no bounds and she and the UK have to use up this vaccine and justify the funds,before it expires.She and H&SS senior staff are experst in political spin,after all she caame from the UK.!
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Why does the JEP quote comments from politicians on matters that politicians have no professional training in (the recent Scrutiny review on suspensions being another good example)?
We are privileged to live in an Island that can attract some of the finer minds into its work force and as a community we have a responsibility to ensure that we stay this way.
Respect for the professionals that, as tax payers, we pay to do a difficult job is what matters.
More professionals less politicians!
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If he was to raise a question I would have suggested – why did they not vacinate all of the under 5’s first followed by the primary schools?
I am glad we are ahead of the UK on our vaccination programme however I think giving priority in Jersey to overweight people and smokers above under 5’s has been the wrong approach.Especially as we don’t have the facilities in the Island for extremely sick children.
“Data suggests healthy children below the age of five are the most likely of all the age groups to need hospital treatment for swine flu.
More than 80% of those who have needed hospital treatment have not had previous health problems such as asthma or heart disease.
For children aged between five and 15 the proportion drops to 60%, while for adults it is much lower.”
source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8200504.stm
This is the area of neglect overlooking the under 5’s not in a nursery or educational establishment. Thankfully they have managed to organise themselves 10 days later but this is reactive rather than a planned approach to the solution.There also seems to be a lack of venues especially in the west of the Island.
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Oh dear looks like he’s a little late again with his warning – did no-one tell him they gave most school children the tamiflu this week? Should he not of thought of this a few weeks ago? Great comfort for those parents who were almost blackmailed in to giving their child this – give them the tamiflu or they can t come to school line. The whole handling of this is wrong and why are people running out to put a vaccine in to themselves or their children which has not even been tested on humans – until now, one big social experiment. I for one refuse to have my children vaccinated from swine flu until i have 100% proof it is safe for humans and seeing as they do not know if there will be any long term consequences to a person’s health that may be a long way away.
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Tamiflu is a powerful antiviral agent.
All pharmaceutical agents have side effects and generally the stronger the agent the more marked the side effects.
Tamiflu can be used to control influenza type viruses but it should not be handed out on a preventative basis.
It is becoming more likely that someone will die from taking Tamiflu than dying from swine flu.
Another £1m lawsuit for the States to pay off!
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Q What is the best way to create a drug resistant strain?
A Give the drug to healthy school children.
Discuss.
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Lara
Modern virus warfare has to adapt quickly as each season there are various virus that can make is ill. The seasonal flu vaccine is adapted very quickly each year to deal with the latest threat. Therefore the same process is used for the seasonal flu jab.
As the teams of scientists and medical people who it is their full time job to monitor and assess these threats as qualified professionals with experience have decided this year that H1N1 is a potentially real threat and that it warranted it its own vaccine.next year it will probably be rolled into the seasonal flu vaccine unless it mutates again.
This has been shown to be a young persons disease and although as an adult you may get away with mild symptoms that does not mean your child will.
tamiflu is recommended as a PREVENTATIVE measure if you have come into contact with swine flu as well as a treatment against it. health are trying to contain the outbreak to give the vaccination programme a chance to work as you are only immune 2 weeks after.
Shentons comments are unhelpful and ill timed. cheap political point scoring is easy at times like this but he is not the one with the years of medical experience.
The health professionals are all working hard and it is not going to be a perfect system and I am certainly a critic of them not giving enough relevant information to people to stop this ill informed debate plus their over sight of the under 5’s not in nurseries. However I recognise they are trying to do their best at the frontline.
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I am with Ben Shenton on this.
The most expert of bodies, the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has NOT APPROVED the jabs being given to our children.
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13 ” It shows how poor the information flow has been if Thicko Micko does not even know what he was injected with”
I was told it was for swine flu, doesn’t much matter what it was as they must know what they are doing.
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two points; firstly you can never ever prove something is 100% safe. Secondly supporting Q, Tamiflu is recommended as a preventitive measure for flu, all you have to do is read the leaflet that comes with Tamiflu and it clearly states this.
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Mark
There is more than one company making vaccines. Baxters is an Austrian company (but listed on the NYSE) and their vaccine has been used on primaries and nurseries.
The vaccine used in secondaries and on the adult population is the UK company Smith Kline Beecham (SKB) BOTH of which have been APPROVED by the European Medical Agency (EMEA) http://www.emea.europa.eu/influenza/home.htm
The two in use are made in Europe and supplied by european companies and approved for use in europe.
The FDA HAS APPROVED the unadjuvanted SKB one
http://www.gsk.com/media/pressreleases/2009/2009_pressrelease_10129.htm It is also used in Canada where it is also manufactured.
Please can people quote their sources rather make scurlous commments that don’t help an informed debate and scare those who are not sure what to do.
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100% with Ben Shenton also. We have been saying this all along. Tamiflu should not be given out to healthy children. Just because Year 11 Le Rocquier Students visited Hautlieu School earlier this week, they have all been offered Tamiflu. I think this is a disgrace. Apart from the side effects from Tamiflu in children, it will become resilient to swine flu! Did you know that Japan banned Tamiflu for 10 to 19 year olds due to hallucinations and suicidal tendancies!
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I wonder if Laura (comment above) works for the Public Health Department ???
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What I,d like to know is how did they know this flu was due to arrive one year before it did?
As ben said they created the scenaro long before it arrived.
Put every=one on high alert,frighten the population.
I also read on the net last year about this.
Is it germ warfare?
We will never know or any-one who has evidence like Jane burgerstein will be silenced.
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There is an old proverb stating, “A shoemaker should stick to his last”.
I do wish someone would bring this to the attention of Senator Shenton.
Politicians work in the States Assembly chamber; they should let Doctors Geller and Muscat get on with theirs at the hospital.
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“She (Dr Geller) and H&SS senior staff are experst in political spin,after all she caame from the UK.!”
Wow! Not one, not two, but THREE errors in a 17-word sentence. That says a lot for the low standards of education in these parts.
Aside from that, the writer’s sentiments are totally illogical. It is rather like saying that Jerseymen hailing from a certain parish on the island have sex with their cattle.
When the contributor succumbs to swine flu (and I fervently hope that (s)he does not), will (s) eschew the benefits of Tamiflu, or another other medication that may be prescribed by Dr Geller, or one of her colleagues?
Somehow, I think not.
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Q (comment no. 20) has told us “This has been shown to be a young persons disease”.
As I am 55, and just recovering from the H1N1 variant of influenza, should I take Q’s declaraton as a compliment?
Q’s statement is of little comfort to my wife, aged 47, who is still in bed with the same complaint.
A swift prescription of Tamiflu from our GP has probably saved us from premature death.
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I think it is every individual’s right to chose whether to have the swine flu’ jab, or parents where children are concerned, and should not have to concern themselves with the ill-informed pronouncements of Ben Shenton.
I have just had my own swine flu’ shot, in the last few days, and the only side effects has been a slight inflammation near the site of injection.
Certainly a big improvement on the sufferings the some of the victims of swine flu’ have experienced, earlier in the year, when they had to rely on Tamiflu. All those I spoke to said they suffered several days of splitting head aches, and acute queasy feelings.
I have been getting seasonal flu vaccinations over the 20 years, and have only experienced very mild flu’ like symptoms twice in that time,
which cleared within 24 hours.
Have had vaccinations for every disease available from cholera to small pox, et al, over the years, and if they ever developed a vaccine against Aids or Cancer, I would have that too.
I have long held the view I would rather have needles than scalpels. ie: Much better a prick in the arm, than suffering the disease and all the consequences.
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udupi -
my comments were related to the actual story & earlier threads as there has been alot of debate about not giving children vaccine and that if you get it it will be mild. My point was that as adults you may get it midly or unfortunately suffer as you and your wife have but adults should not compare themselves to children and think about not giving them the vaccine as they are more likely to need hospital treatment (we have no intensive care beds in Jersey for children) and not as in your case suffer at home.
“Data suggests healthy children below the age of five are the most likely of all the age groups to need hospital treatment for swine flu.
More than 80% of those who have needed hospital treatment have not had previous health problems such as asthma or heart disease.
For children aged between five and 15 the proportion drops to 60%, while for adults it is much lower.”
source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8200504.stm
Plus i am a supporter of Tamiflu and was pointing out is has a dual role as a preventative as much as a cure. I am very please you are an example of it working.But the best defence is the vaccine.
I am not related in any way to public health or the states. I am a parent who is taking this seriously and is fed up with the wild accusations, myths and rumours that are circulating. Lets have an informed debate.
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We are target audience and we tend to believe and accept what we are fed…especially if it’s topped up with constant unease and colour-coded terror alerts.
Take for example Udupi’s comment 30:
“A swift prescription of Tamiflu from our GP has probably saved us from premature death”
Udupi’s not stupid, he’s just been primed by powerful sales tactics, supported by what seems to be a reputable source (i.e. SCIENTISTS!). And he’s not alone, because when I say “We are target audience” I also include Dr. Geller who, I am sure, was totally convinced that the products she bought were needed and worthwhile.
The only mistake she made was being too much of a doctor and not enough of a housewife…because a housewife would have looked at the sell-by date before parting with her money!
Bella 27.
Do you mean Jane Burgermeister?
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I don’t think that Senator Shenton ever said that anyone should not have the vaccine – he just said that people should make an informed choice. My daughter was told that she could not go to school unless she took Tamiflu, which is blackmail, so we picked up the drug and chucked it in the dustbin. Most of her friends did the same. The use of this drug on teenagers is banned in some countries. Dr Geller appears to have the same catch phrase as Fraser from Dads Army.
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#16 They take into account your chances of catching it, not JUST how badly it might affect you. Children in a nursery setting are way more likely to catch it than those that are not.
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#24 worth adding that two of the drugs being used have been in use since around 2004 and 2006.
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#25 Peter, Japan has a suicide rate that has been rising fast for some time now. The Government have blamed it on many things over the years but the reality is most likely to be the extreme pressure Japanese children are put under, especially in schools. Unfortunately the culture is such that the cause of suicides will be difficult to get to the bottom of for many years to come I suspect.
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#27 Bella, my mum’s a nurse. She is not in any way a conspiracy theorist so I was surprised to hear her say she believes that Governments have leapt on swine flu as a chance to test their procedures for dealing with biological warfare. The letters that have been sent to businesses and medical professionals in the UK certainly do seem to point towards such a suggestion (read one if you get the chance, they seem a little bizarre for a flu).
If they have indeed done this then it probably isn’t a bad thing, I guess it’s a rare opportunity to check out procedures.
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#YES I think so.
Just me having a senior moment.
AL i remember was the Burger bit.
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Re: Q (24)
Yes, but! The root of concern is the ADJUVANT squalene.
The Baxter vaccine is the vaccine of choice but the method of production cannot cope with demand, hence Smith Kline Beecham (SKB) adjuvanted vaccine.
You acknowledge that the FDA has only approved the UNADJUVANTED SKB vaccine; you will find that it is the SKB adjuvanted vaccine which makes up the bulk of Swine Flu vaccine administered in Europe and Canada. Hence the strain of the vaccine being administered in Jersey has not received FDA approval; the reverse is true.
My concern and the concern of many others is the lack of informed debate. Robust science based inquiry is a complex subject the constraints being – statistical relevance, reference and peer review. The only science based paper I can find is quoted below.
http://www.autoimmune.com/SubcommitteeRFGarry24Jan02.html
From this it is clear that 95-100% of Gulf War veterans with Gulf War Syndrome (GWS) who were vaccinated with squalene adjuvant have squalene antigens now suffer from neurodegenerative conditions. 0% of the control sample fell into this category. You will note that squalene appears to be the only element common to all sufferers of GWS. The cohort at 140 was small and further study is required, but that does not make squalene safe.
The public deserve better than ‘Doctor knows best’. We need informed consent when there is a verifiable risk. Get this wrong and public health could be degraded by well meant exposure to an antigen which corrupts the balance of the immune system.
Q I am happy to have science based debate in open forum, with or without Dr Geller.
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Panic inciting and typical.. we have not given our child this rubbish after doing our own research.. and after speaking with our gp.. will be fun to see how we are treated over our childs absence from school after finding out the educations departments take on this.. left hand and right hand do not know what they are doing.. oh well.. we have it in writing from our childs school that they are not to return until tomorrow..
Not impressed with the way this has been handled AT ALL but that is typical of these people running the show trying to raise their profiles to say look at what I did ..at least Ben Shenton is not afraid to question and quite rightly so. fairplay, some of them are not idiots have got brains
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Micko 22
I’d be a bit more careful showing that much faith in your health service and would perhaps get assurances that they know what they are doing first. Just look at the tragedy involving Dr Day last year….he was an esteemed professional in his field and supposedly “knew” what he was doing!
Personally, I am a bit of a conspiracy theorist because I do mot trust ANY government or large corporation….only money talks in this world, integrity is much lower on their list of priorities. You have to wonder who is REALLY benefitting from all of this…..pharmaceutical companies and the medical profession most likely. Governments may be interested in population control however.
Modern science can create and often the scientists like to play god themselves (i.e. cloning and genetic engineering). I would not be surprised if these strains had been man-made. Maybe created as a weapon of some sort but accidentally (or purposefully) let loose……there are experiments we don’t even know are happening (and probably don’t want to know). Not long ago it was Bird Flu, now Swine Flu…what next Cow Flu, Fish Flu…..Puffin Flu? (maybe that’s why our Puffin population has dwindled!).
Look at the last 100 years since medical science has advanced in leaps and bounds…..how many new viruses or diseases have been discovered (or introduced) during this time? Aids, Ebola, various strains of Flu are just some of the high profile ones.
This may sound far fetched to the gullible that like to accept everything they are told, but perhaps people should be more concerned and ask pertinent questions instead of accepting everything these authorities have to say……
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Just out of interest and with regards to phil’s comments
Q What is the best way to create a drug resistant strain?
A Give the drug to healthy school children.
Discuss.
Have you seen this:
Drug-Resistant Swine Flu Emerges In Wales
11:42am UK, Saturday November 21, 2009
Hugh Westbrook, Sky News Online
Five people have been diagnosed with a strain of swine flu which appears to be resistant to Tamiflu.
It is also believed the strain could be the first one to pass directly from person to person
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Expat Bill
Asthma aside I’ve been lucky enough to have been ill on very rare occasions without the need for any chemical/medicine entering my body….over 30 odd years.
A lot of people I know who have taken the annual Flu jab are often off work with flu shortly after because they have been injected with the virus in order for the body to develop immunities……in my opinion, that’s like pulling a tooth out in case you get toothache
One day your body may reject all the vaccinations you take and they won’t work when you actually need them to….what then?
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Born Warrior (comment number 33) rather patronisingly assures me that I am “not stupid”.
Gee, thanks!
This armchair soldier went on to say “He’s just been primed by powerful sales tactics, supported by what seems to be a reputable source (i.e. SCIENTISTS!)”.
What crass nonsense. How can he claim to know what I think, or how I come to conclusions?
I am not a scientist, nor am I a doctor. I am just a middle-aged, going on elderly, man who was thankful not to have died from complications caused by secondary health complications.
I wholly support the actions initiated by our Medical Officer of Health, Dr Geller.
I absolutely deplore the mudslinging against her mounted by medically unqualified and scientifically ignorant Jersey politicians who wish to climb on the bandwagon of public fear to garner support and votes.
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#Leah 38.
The WHO and pharma companies are set to make a small fortune with this drug.
As i,ve mentioned before there is always a good pay day for some-one.
Then you have a lot of big companies investing in their shares.
I have always found those that took no or very few medication were the healthiest.
I worker throughout the hospitals practually all my life and night-nursing for the aged at home.
Many of these never had injections and most lived well into their 80,s 90,s and a few over 100.
To me this says it all.
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#agree.
I don,t trust a lot of what they say either.
As for Scientific evidence
most of it is junk science with a hidden agenda.
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Has anyone calculated how much all this is costing us the taxpayer of Jersey?
I have little sympathy with Ben Shenton – he was a poor Minister for Health and missed an opportunity to bring some order to the chaos, but he is right on this one, Rosemary Geller has escalated this hysteria. She treats the public like they are stupid, evidenced by Sen Shenton’s assertion that she didn’t want the public to be told of the risks because essentially they are too stupid to understand and it didn’t suit her agenda. Well guess what, I think I have a better grasp of statistics and risk calculation than she has, so please do not patronise me Mrs Geller.
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Udupi
I have had no flu vaccines and Im not dead either.
Not really scientific is it.
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Udupi 45.
My comment was not meant to be patronising. I simply wished to highlight how easy it is to convince people (through powerful sales tactics, supported by scientists) to fill their bodies with a drug whose effectiveness against this new strain of influenza is unknown and whose users have been known to exhibit signs of unusual and worrying behaviour (irritability for one….hmmmm).
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Tamiflu i was told by a GP is only used if the person has the virus! It attacks the Virus only when present in the body. To give Tamiflu to healthy people will not stop them getting the virus, it won’t even speed the recovery process it actually slows the recovery down.
If you look at how many people have had the virus to the ammount that have had serious affects from it its very minimal.
In comparison to the normal strain of influenza.
Funny thing is why is it when the kids went on there summer holidays the virus slowed down and nearly stopped but why when the kids went back to school did the virus rear its ugly head! Panic and hype over nothing. The normal flu and the swine flu have similar affects and are hard to tell apart.
To me this is a lot of hype abut nothing over a drug that hasn’t been tested to the standards needed. Remember DDT, This was sprayed over kids to show it was tested and safe, as we all found out this wasn’t the case, it was a very dangerous chemical and only made people ill years later.
Well done Mr Shenton for saying something regarding this.
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I am very surprised at many of the comments on this thread.
Don’t people know that Stuart Syvret was the politician who authorised the purchase of Tamiflu?
It therefore follows that anyone who is now questioning the Tamiflu policy must be part of an anti-Syvret establishment cover up.
Udapi: “I wholly support the actions initiated by our Medical Officer of Health, Dr Geller.”
The Japanese (who are the worlds biggest users of Tamiflu) don’t give it to children aged between 10 and 20 on grounds that any internet search will reveal. Look into it and then tell us that you support Dr G.
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40. Mark
I agree with you and your concerns on the adjunvated GSK one. As a parent and one that has researched as much as possible I am happy that Jersey are giving all under 11’s the Baxters one unless you go to your docs and then it will be the GSK one.
My concern is that people don’t give the young children the Baxters vaccine because they are listening to all the hoo hah over the GSK one and Tamiflu and some misleading reports. it is very refreshing to be debating this with someone who has taken the trouble to look at the detail.
Also with references to GPS and Docs they all are using the GSK one and have been vaccinated with the GSK so please do not confuse any feedback on that vaccine with the Baxters one.
Facts are as adults you can make the decision whether you risk it or not and if you stay at home to suffer or get treated in hospital. Our children are the vunerable section of society and we don’t have the facilities in jersey or intensive beds to deal with an epidemic in that population.
I also agree with your point that there has been very little information of any substance provided by the authorities in Jersey which is all apparent when you research what other countries are providing to their populations. And into the vacuum of ignorance breeds hysteria.
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Bella #46:
“The WHO and pharma companies are set to make a small fortune with this drug”
Do you know what WHO is, Bella? Would you (or even could you) explain just how the World Health Organisation “is set to make a small fortune with this drug?
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#53
They are a so called charity organization.
They are the ones who gain the profits from spreading the news from the drug companies.
We are supposed to believe all the nonsense they supply us with,because they seem big and important.
We are not supposed to question them as they think they are so important.
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Hmmm, Dick Shenton was lucky in that he was born with a mouth and brain that on most occasions worked together, seems Ben does not have the same attributes, money and society position do not make a man an expert in all things to openly criticize professionals, know your limits Ben.
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Sorry but I think this is a simple case of making a mountain out of a mole hill. Swine flu is no worse than regular Flu. People talking about studies of Swine Flu, there are none, this is a new type of Flu and its being studied as we go along, a conclusion can only be reached after it has disappeared. Also adding to the fact that any previous cases of Swine flu would be different (genetically), it mutates all the time, hence why an attenuated Virus is useless unlike with Viruses like Polio.
Whether the Vaccine will work or not is unfounded until we get further down the line. One thing that is clear, swine flu is not the killer it has been made out to be, why has Mexico gone out the picture when it started there, correct me if I’m wrong but they can’t afford the treatment like us and the spread slowed in April?!? Also the companies that have branded the vaccines safe, I’m willing to bet have a large holding of shares in the companies producing the vaccine, therefore making a healthy profit when people are receiving a vaccine that will probably do very little. Personally think the vaccine is a waste of money and although Mr Shenton is not one of my favourite people, I do believe the £500,000 was a complete waste.
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Udupi
I have no intention of engaging in useless verbal conflict…as you said, I’m a Chaise-longue combatant so it’s simply not my style. Furthermore I agree with you with regard to politicians and band wagons and that Dr Geller is doing her best to deal with a situation that, at the moment, is unpredictable.
She is doing what the worrying public expect of her. She is preparing the hospital for the onset of eventual trouble and is promoting Tamiflu in the hope that the risks of taking this drug might be worthwhile (I’m sure she wouldn’t do it otherwise).
But what I don’t understand is your trust in Tamiflu and its effectiveness. Because there is no hard data regarding what effect Tamiflu might have in terms of reducing swine flu mortality…and absolutely no safety profile for its mass useage.
Thus my conclusion that the ‘worrying public’ have been primed to accept it is an official cure for H1N1…when at best it reduces symtoms by one day and is apparently of limited value.
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Time to resign Mr Shenton! This time you’ve well and truly got it wrong and brought into question your worthiness to hold public office.
By seeking to undermine the island’s flu containment strategy at its most crucial moment through your half-baked scare-mongering it is YOU who is guilty of criminal negligence. (Although your total lack of any specialist medical knowledge may possibly protect you from any formal legal prosecution).
Consider for a moment what would happen if, through hearing your stupid advice, a large section of the Jersey public were duped into not taking Tamiflu and, as a result, we ended up with 10,000 people simultaneously ill with Swine Flu.
Thanks to Mrs Geller the island has just obtained 6 or so specialist breathing machines to assist those trying to recover from flu. That’s clearly better than no machines but what would happen to the other 9,994 people? Most will be fine but some, who could have been nursed back to health, will die.
This is the whole point of the containment strategy – if we suffer a mass flue outbreak we won’t be able to provide those that need it with intensive care so they will die – we therefore have to slow down the spread to give ourselves more time to vaccinate.
Thankfully it looks like the flue is not as bad as predicted but that doesn’t make the current strategy wrong and to suggest that our medical authorities have been ‘hysterical’ or acted with gross negligence is a SHAMEFUL accusation. In my opinion the only way Mr Shenton can regain any public respect is to publicly apologise to Mrs Geller and her department – and then RESIGN!
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#46 Bella, as someone has already asked, do you know who WHO is?
Also, has it occured to you that those old people lived so long because they were lucky enough to be born with good genes? Through my work I have met plenty of old people who have lived just as long having taken all sorts of drugs and vaccinations throughout their lives.
In general I’m not in agreement with vaccinating entire populations and throwing antibiotics at people, but they are needed in some cases.
Indeed, today’s society is more in need because it lacks the common sense to stay at home and not spread bugs to others. Everything we do now (working as many hours as possible to make more money, socialising, etc) is considered more important than our responsibility to the rest of society. If there’s a chance I’m infectuous I’ll try my best to keep the illness to myself, unfortunately not everyone does!
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Jay #56, we’ll never be able to make proper comparisons to other strains of flu since every possible case of flu-like symptoms is being deemed swine-flu. For all we know it was the same case with the Spanish flu. It’s a catch-22 between taking the time to test every possible case and using that time to try and stop a pandemic spreading to vulnerable people. Governments opt to do what is most likely to protect the population, even if that ultimately doctors the pandemic figures.
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54 bella
The World Health Organisation (WHO) is the directing and coordinating authority on international health within the United Nations (UN)system representing 193 countries. They are funded mainly through the member states.
For the last 60 years they have introduced international classification and monitoring of diseases and the advocated childhood vaccination programmes which has resulted in irradication of smallpox, polio. They campaign for better health programmes, react to natural disasters and help stop new diseases like SARs. They want to also stop HIV, malaria & TB. They are trying to do the same with swine flu (H1N1. As someone that works in health where is the nonsense in that which you allude to?
The reason for their concern is because this is a new influenza A(H1N1) virus that has never before circulated among humans. This virus is not related to previous or current human seasonal influenza viruses. Seasonal flu has some variant of an exisiting virus which you may have some immunity to. H1N1 is an unknown virus and therefore unpredictable in its nature.
For those patients which you have nursed I would be curious to know how many of their siblings may have died through childhood illness that are now preventable. Infant mortality rates are substationally lower than 100 years ago. Plus there is a larger population, greater migration and more international travel. You only have to look at how Jersey has changed over the decade.
Also viruses are now the biggest threat to humanity than they were 100 years ago – SARs, avian flu and now swine flu are all viruses which have the medical profession worried.
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Re Tamiflu (Oseltamivir), the danger of overuse and increasing resistance.
This is one of the very few antivirals the world has to defend ourselves against the much more deadly avian flu infection so why is Jersey giving this out willy nilly to all and sundry when it is potentially such a precious commodity? Dr Geller’s personal short term publicity gain could in the longer term have a high price for us all.
From the WHO website on 20 November 2009 – and this not swine flu they refer to it is a much more deadly virus stalking us, the death rate of those infected is almost 30%, now that is something to worry about!
“he Ministry of Health of Egypt has reported a new confirmed human case of avian influenza A(H5N1).
The case is a 21 year-old male from Sedy Beshir District, Alexandria Governorate. His symptoms started on 11 November. He was admitted to Maamoura Chest Hospital on 15 November, where he received oseltamivir treatment. The patient is in a stable condition.
Investigations into the source of infection indicated that the case had close contact with dead and/or sick poultry and was involved in slaughtering sick birds.
The cases were confirmed by the Egyptian Central Public Health Laboratories.
Of the 88 cases confirmed to date in Egypt, 27 have been fatal. “
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A little viewing to get you thinking. A 1970’s public service announcement dealing with…Swine Flu.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f66_1240866438
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#61
You forgot to put they work hand in hand with the drugs companies.
All they have to do is raise the alert to raise their stakes.
I worked with dementia patients and they did not know what day it was never mind how many siblings they had.
I don,t hold your ideology and can tell you from personal experience that taking too many drugs suppressing your own natural immune system.
That is the very reason why viruses are the biggest threat in the world now.
Over use of anti-biotics is one of the reasons why we have these new strains of bugs that are killing many people in hospitals.
What happens if a worse strain arrives?
Avian flu?
Also there are many more diseases today than a century ago.
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Trust the FDA do you my pretty ones.
This is a blatant abuse of patients and it the tip off the iceberg and you don’t have to be a doctor to know the truth. Consider History.
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So, we are giving Tamiflu to secondary school children.
Whereas Japan, where Tamiflu has been widely used for a long period of time, and which has historically consumed 60% of the world’s Tamiflu, bans Tamiflu being given to children aged between 10 and 20 because of known side effects that are of particular high risk in that age group.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article1549260.ece
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Well said Mr Shenton. They claimed to be only giving Tamiflu to those children that had come in contact with Swine Flu. But in Bel Royal School turned up and gave it out to all 150+ children because a few kids had SF in one of the classes in Key Stage 2. What evidence was there that all children had come in to contact with those children? There is as much chance for a child to come into contact with it in King Street or at the supermarket.
And to say that parents had a choice – many working parents had no option other than to give it to their children as they had to send them to school.
Stand on the corner of the street and hand it out to everyone that walks by?
Better still they could have included a packet of Tamiflu in the envelope that contained the thermometer.
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Bella, #65, you’re not disagreeing with me. No medical professional wants to use drugs unnecessarily, but there can be disagreement over what is/is not necessary.
And they are backed into a corner by the public who would create a backlash were someone to die when they could have been cured! I believe that society created the situation we are now in, they got used to treatment and now do not accept being ill, even if it is actually better for them in the long run (there are exceptions of course).
There’s no win-win.
I have experience too, due to an immune system that doesn’t work, through no fault of my own! There are many others like me. I get ill and my immune system attacks ME, not the illness. Every illness I get leaves my health permanently worse than it was before. There will be thousands, probably hundreds of thousands with the same condition (just not yet diagnosed) for whom any form of flu would attack their overall health permanently.
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What is this.
The spanish inquisition?
Regarding the WHO i know as much or more about them than you patronising know-it-alls.
Do you thing you have the god giving right to question anyone who don,t hold your views?
Keep your nasty and vindictive comments to yourselves.
Some of us are not as gullible as to believe all this hype.
From now on i will not answer to these smug self deluded head in the cloud types.
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This might be a little complicated for some people but. Cross species influenza strains are POTENTIALLY extremely dangerous. This said you cannot wait until loads of people have died before you decide that you should have done something. However it appears after some study that Jersey prefers recrimination to action! Tamiflu acts as a preventative measure as well as a treatment. Children are the biggest incubators as they all collect in schools and bring home infections as well as homework and dirty sports kid. Ergo vaccinate as many as is possible and in order to cut down infection whilst the vaccination takes effect give them all Tamiflu to try and prevent the spread during the next 14 days. Is this really too difficult to understand?
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#Leah
Sorry
It was a response from 62 Q. i put the wrong number in.
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No.63 “don’t patronise me” has not realised that Bird Flu (h5) has notbeen transmitted human to human in any recent outbreak. If it does happen it will be a completely different flu strain. It will have had on exposure to Tamiflu and therefore no resistance to it.
The Public Health Departments here in Jersey and in the developed world, are in a very difficult position. outbreak of swine flu is unique and in no way the same as seasonal flu.They have to assume ther worst case. We can consider ourselves lucky that the second phase of the disease has not been as virulent as it might have been.
I feel it is about time we Google armchair experts( and this particularly applies to Mr. Shenton) lets our Health Professionals do their job without interference. Mr. Shenton’s outburst is ill informed and disgracefull in its timing. The only person trying to gain publicity here is Mr. Shenton(I am very surprised and disappointed that the JEP gave him a front page to vent his dubious views).
Mr. Shenton should issue an apology to Dr. Geller and the Health Department here on Jersey and then resign.
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Leah Holmes #61. Fair comment people should be given it if they are at risk, that I can agree with. Whats really gets me is the fact they are pushing it on every person out there. Not all folks want it but we are pressured to get it “just in case”. Its a fact that this vaccine has not been fully tested, I know nothing is 100% but incomplete testing still offers little comfort. My other half is pregnant with our first child and both of us have refused the jab, the simple fact that they are injecting a substance that they cannot be 90% sure there will be no long term effects, doesn’t sit well with us.
They saw a niche in the market and they took it, amazing what someone in a white coat can do. Wouldn’t surprise me if the start handing it out on the streets like the free magazines, just as long as the tax payers fronting the bill!
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Jay550 #74
Your partner who is pregnant I can understand ( not agree)why she wants to take as little risks as possible.
But you, surely the last thing either of you want is for you to bring the swine flu home ?
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As a child my mother only vacinated me and my older brother against Tetinus and Polio – as a consquence yes we have both had Whooping Cough, Measles, Mumps, Rubella and Chicken Pox – roll out the carpet we survived !!
I refuse to inject myself or my daughter with a vaccination for a flu virus – we are both healthy and lead a healthy life style – should we get the dreaded swine flu – so be it – I’m sure we will survive !! (There’s a song there) At the end of the day it is down to personal choice and beliefs whether you vaccinate yourself and your children.
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It’s shocking how many people are getting confused between Tamiflu (antiviral drug) and the vaccine. It’s actually getting hard to work out what’s being said in the news, because even reporters are getting them confused.
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PJG #75 I don’t really get ill too often, I’ve had flu twice when I was younger and never since, so hopefully I’ve got my immune system on my side. Failing that any signs that I do have it and I’m off to stay at my folks and away from my little lady til I’m in the clear.
Plus the vaccine comprimises my immune system for about a week and can mean I can get ill from other flu’s, colds etc… This leave my other half exposed to other things that can harm her and the baby so I’m taking the lesser of 2 evils and letting my own immune system take care of things, hasn’t failed me in the past!
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Having the vaccine lowers your immune response for about a week and leaves me open to other infections, ones that aren’t flying about in the news but can still hurt my other half and our baby.
I have a strong constitution and trust in nature to make sure I stay fit and healthy. I’ve had Flu twice in my life when I was younger and haven’t had it since. If I do have any concern I my have it I’ve already made arrangements to move to my folks for a couple of weeks until I’m ok.
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Guernsey didn’t vaccinate. Hundreds of kids got swine flu. They were ill for a few days then returned to normal. No-one died.
Maybe they got it right?
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Bella has expostulated:
“What is this.
The spanish inquisition?
Regarding the WHO i know as much or more about them than you patronising know-it-alls.
Do you thing you have the god giving right to question anyone who don,t hold your views?
Keep your nasty and vindictive comments to yourselves.
Some of us are not as gullible as to believe all this hype.”
To which I would suggest that people who live in glass houses cannot afford to throw stones.
If Bella wants to exercise her democratiuc right to participate in a public debate she must be prepared to take – as well as to give.
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My daughter won’t be having tamiflu or the vaccine. The side effects of the tamiflu are too much of a risk for a 2 year old as far as im concerned and as for the vaccine no matter what the states say it has been rushed out.
As for the scare mongering, as they panic ordered it i suppose they have to try and get us to take it some how. Its just the flu!
As for the comment about 10,000 people getting ill with swine flu all at once, it can happen with normal flu as well you know and probably does year in, year out.
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As a child my mother only vaccinated me and my older brother against Tetanus and Polio – as a consequence yes we have both had Whooping Cough,Measles, Mumps, Rubella and Chicken Pox – roll out the carpet we survived !!I refuse to inject myself or my daughter with a vaccination for a flu virus – we are both healthy and lead a healthy life style – should we get the dreaded swine flu – so be it – I’m sure we will survive !! (There’s a song there) At the end of the day it is down to personal choice and beliefs whether you vaccinate yourself and your children.
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#81
A public debate?
No way 4 or 5 banging the same questions at me is not a debate.
Trying to belittle me and insinuating i am an idiot.
No contest.
I will not have a debate with people who are trying to ridicule me.
i,d rather just not have a discussion with these individuals at all.
I don,t try and bring others down with snide and uncalled for nasty remarks and expect to be treated the same.
I suuppose it makes them feel better.
Go ahead and find some-one else to have a go at,if it makes you feel better.
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Magnolia Man 81.
You’re quite right, differences of opinion are part and parcel of a discussion.
But your comment (54) sounded as if you were questioning Bella’s understanding of the topic, therefore, somewhat offensive.
Having to present one’s personal vision of an organization such as the W.H.O. requires pages not lines, so I’m surprised Bella answered at all.
By the way, in 58 I spelt ’symptoms’ without the ‘P’ and you didn’t correct me…am I to assume that you couldn’t be bothered checking my posts?
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84 Bella and 85 Born Warior I fully support you on this. I haven’t posted on here for some time because I felt that Magnolia Man had tried to ridicule me on another thread.
Magnolia Man (and others you know who you are) – you do often make snide and nasty remarks about the comments and opinions of others and there is absolutely no need. This is supposed to be a forum whereby individuals can express their comments about the articles and subjects free from all that. Please respect that people have opinions that are sometimes different from your own as they respect your opinions and comments.
Debate is part of a healthy society and often leads to exchanges of information which enable people to learn more about a subject. Just please be a little bit more respectful when presenting your counter arguments and comments in future!
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72 Bella, no worries
I could side with all arguments on here because they all have an element of truth unfortunately.
I don’t believe in forcing people at all, but those that do not take the vaccine MUST understand that they potentially put others at risk and must act accordingly (i.e. being extremely cautious should they suffer any symptoms at all). I don’t believe this happens in life, everyone puts the dollar signs first now.
74, I do have concerns over what doctors and scientists can get away with, and I say that as a scientist. Too many abuse the title. But actually all it needs for that situation to be corrected is for the public to stop thinking that scientists are God (and some clearly do). Don’t believe everything they tell you because they’re human and they are every bit as susceptible to being woo’d by the media, following the dollar signs, and to having ulterior motives. They’re a human first and foremost, and a scientist/doctor second!
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#85
Thanks born Warrior,
You have restored my faith in humanity and came across with a better answer than me.
I only answered his Question 54# to give him the benifit of the doubt.
Shoud,nt have bothered leopards never change their spots.
#86 disheartened.
Don,t let these nasty characters drive you off putting your views on here.
Just tell them you will not answer them in no uncertain terms like i did.
If not they will carry on with their bully boy tactics and grind you down.
We need more people like you otherwise these nasties have won.
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bella #84
From your posts I read (my apologies if I am incorrect) that English is not your first language,(if I am correct, my congratulations, its a lot better than any foreign language I can speak, yet alone debate in).
This site is enriched by the diverse views of people such as yourself.
Please do not let the cut and thrust of others chase you away.
Yours opinion has as much value as any other poster on this site. But we must remember an opinion is just that “an opinion”.
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#86 Disheartened
While I agree that ’snide and nasty’ remarks are totally unacceptable, many people on this forum regard any contradiction of their ‘facts’ or analysis as a personal affront.
As you say, debate is healthy. Unfortunately, many posters (you know who you are!) post on this website without having the faintest idea what they’re talking about. Some of the comments above in relation to immunology show this, eg ‘the over use of antibiotics …can lead to inflamatory bowel disease’. Fortunately, 85 per cent of Jersey schoolchildren have been vaccinated despite all the misinformation.
This is a public forum. Uncorrected ‘facts’ are read and repeated. Posters should remember this.
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Michael Neal 90.
As far as I can remember (without reading all the posts again), no-one has openly questioned any FACTS presented on this thread.
And before you start, FACTS are hard truths, supported by proof that verifies a conclusion which in turn reveals reality…all of which leave no room for perspective.
However, many comments on this thread contradict perspective (which is a matter of opinion) and not untruth (which is a divergence from fact). And whilst I am most interested to read differences in opinion (I find a good debate compelling), I feel views should be argued with intelligence and not derision…after all, it’s only good manners.
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#PJG
I have always spoken english(in an irish fashion)
if that makes sense.
At the time war broke out my father rejoined the army and my mother went back to her native dublin where i was born.
Because i had a very broad dublin accent i was forever mocked and teased called thick paddy etc i soon learned to speak like everyone else.
I lost the first 2 years of schooling as the family had to wait for a home (after the war ended )for us in jersey and we were sent to different parts of uk awaiting to move back here.
Thanks for the boost you have given me I can give as much muck back to undesibles but some of them go too far and in their heads they are always right and everyone else wrong.I will just ignore them in future.
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#91 Born Warrior
Sorry for the confusion. I was talking about all forums rather than this one in particular.
I wish I felt facts were as black and white as you feel they are!
While I agree broadly with your final paragraph, it must be remembered that facts and opinions are (or at least should be) interrelated. The former should underpin the latter. If you start off with the incorrect facts, how can you possibly formulate a valid opinion?
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Michael Neal 93.
I can’t agree with you with regard to the interrelation between facts and opinions, simply because facts are actually opposed to theories/opinions and hence not interrelated.
However, IT IS possible to discuss and form/change opinions relating to the philosophical and formal accounts of facts and their effects…but even so, in all cases, we cannot alter the facts.
For example, it is a fact that water is the only natural substance that is found in all three states, liquid, solid and gas.
Can we oppose/alter this fact? Of course we can’t, simply because it is a fact.
Having said that, I agree that (especially under these circumstances) it’s far more beneficial to spread facts rather than theories…hold on a minute, can a theory be considered a suspicion?…mmmm…I’ll get back to you on that one, because if I don’t take the dog out right away, he’ll commit a ‘faux pas’ in the sitting room…and that’s a FACT!
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#94 Born Warrior
I can recommend an excellent book on these issues called ‘What is this thing called science’ by Alan Chalmers.
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Michael Neal 95.
I’m overwhelmed! What a strange coincidence that you should mention that particular book, which I came across (and read with due interest) while I was translating a report on Thermodynamics…it was actually a chapter from ‘What is this thing called Science’ (relating to causal laws) which inspired my example! Thank you all the same.
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#96 Born Warrior
It is an excellent book. I’m interested to know what do you make of Thomas Kuhn’s work in relation to paragraphs 2 and 3 in your post #94. Also, I don’t understand what you mean by ‘facts are actually opposed to theories/opinions and hence not interrelated’.
Ah, yet another thread that only I and someone else is reading!
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Michael Neal
Here goes….
Theories are unsure concepts or structure of ideas which might be true. They are dynamic (denoting movement), therefore, in continuous advancement.
Facts are the current universal data of certainty thus are objectively and undeniably true. They are static (denoting immobility), therefore, there is ‘no advancement in the world of fact’.
For this reason, facts oppose the advancement of theory in the same way as static objects oppose dynamic movement.
I write and translate technical literature, therefore, my life revolves around the writings of others (books, reports, abtracts, etc.), which although precious to my research, I read with due interest but no passion. However, I believe I know why you chose to mention Kuhn…because his theories have particular relevance to circular arguments, right?…mmmm…I need time to think whether I should be offended or not…”Rupert walkies!”
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