Val de la Mare water levels could be raised by nine metres to meet future demand
EVERY home in Jersey is to be fitted with a water meter within the next five years, it was announced today.
Jersey Water will begin installing the meters from late spring as part of a major programme to help safeguard the Island’s long-term water supply.
The plan, which was announced this morning, includes:
• Installing 17,500 meters free of charge across the Island, starting with the northern parishes.
• Consider further flooding Val de la Mare reservoir by a height of nine metres to increase capacity from 900 million litres to 2,100 million litres.
• Extracting water from more boreholes in St Ouen’s Bay to generate up to two million litres of water per day. Currently water is drawn from just five small boreholes in the bay.
• Using the latest technology to reduce leaks by 25 per cent.
• Educating Islanders about how to use less water.
Article posted on 4th March, 2010 - 2.59pm
93 Article Comments
Although this may appear a practical and easy solution, may I pass on my own experience of the Waterworks. The property which we own is over 100 years old, and in that time has undergone many changes and modifications. In fact now there are 3 separate ‘units’ coming from one water main which enters the building and then splits.
We were given the option to have a meter installed, but due to the complexity of the property it would have required the road being dug, three feeds connecting and each unit being re-plumbed. All at vast expense to myself and her indoors. But the meter was free! No thank you was our reply . . .
I feel many people will be in similar positions given the nature of the many older property which have been converted from one large house in apartments. The building regs are very different now from 30 or 40 years ago.
Not sure what the answer is, I suppose every converted property will have to be re-plumbed!
Now where is that Highlands booklet, ah yes plumbing courses . . . !
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So we are not to have a choice in this, previously the situation was that if you chose to be metered you could not revert back to non metered, now it’s one step further and we are being forced onto meters.
Let me guess, whilst it is claimed the reason is to conserve water an unexpected side effect will be that Jersey Water will make more money. I’m not aware of a water shortage, quite the opposite with a tourism industry all but dead and an additional resovoir in Queens Valley we’ve never had so much water.
This is another tax by the back door and we should not be forced to accept metering. By all means take every step to stop leaks which is where much of our water goes but don’t penalise us with more expense.
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Yet more signs of Jersey suffering under overpopulation.
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I think they should eliminate leaks & put in the meters and see if they then need any of the other measures.
Maybe the savings will be adequate not to require more bore holes or reservoir capacity.
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Funny how this article doesn’t mention the £6m cost in meters that will be passed on to customer.
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@ Mulvie Le Phew
“…This is another tax by the back door…”
No it is not, JerseyWater can’t raise a tax, it is a very simple charge.
“…we should not be forced to accept metering…”
Why not? why should the careful, prudent and frugal with their water pay for those that aren’t, and and use more while paying less?
Would you accept a system at the supermarket where everybody pays a set rate regardless of use? Would you not feel at all aggrieved standing in line behind a guy with two trollies of food who’s paying the same as you for you basket?
Metering is the only fair system, and it’s long overdue.
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Get a borehole then you can have free unpolluted water!
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Great, but what about the next step; smart meters?
Re: Mistershifter (1). No problem really. You could save expense by agreeing to share the cost between the 3 feeds to your house. That is as fair as what what you do now, you share the costs with all the other un-metered islanders.
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All homes??????!!!! I think not! They’re not setting foot on my property…I survive on rainwater alone ….collected in my tanks on my land….
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Not a surprise to me at all. I have been expecting this to happen for quite some time.
It might appear like a good idea to be on metered water. Indeed I would agree that it is good to be able to monitor water supplies. However I do not believe this is the real reason the JNWW Co. want to do this.
To be brutally honest I think it is a case of get everyone on a meter then bang the price up when the job is done. This will further increase the profits of the JNWW Co. enabling them to recoup their losses incurred by the so called “free” connections that they have done to get everyone on meters. As we all know there is no such thing as a free lunch and the future charges will have to factor in these costs IMHO.
Indeed those to benefit from these extra profits will be the private shareholders who could do very well from this apparently generous offer to connect people for free.
I myself would bring all the JNWW Co. shares back into states control as I don’t believe private shareholders should be profiting from one of life’s necessities. All profits should be returned to the water company for future maintenance and to enable it to become more green orientated. Peoples’ back pockets are not the place for any of these profits in my opinion.
The other thing people need to be weary of is if the JNWW Co. know how much water an individual uses the states will also be able to levee a “toilet” tax as well. So be prepared to pay for every trip to the toilet!
So to recap I expect:-
1.the water charge per unit to be cranked up to a much higher rate after the completion of the “free” connections. So everyone will pay more than at present with the two teir system.
2. profits in the JNWW Co. to surge upwards enabling those private individuals who are lucky enough to have shares to have an even higher return on their investment well above what they would get in the bank.
3. a toilet tax to be leveed on everyone’s effluent thus bringing in yet more taxes to the government.
A win-win if you are:-
1. the government.
2. a manager at the JNWW Co.
3. a director as in 2.
4. a private share holder.
Extra costs if you are Joe Public.
Nevermind the story sounds good and will probably bring the people round to the JNWW/government’s way of thinking.
These are my own views on things and may or may not be true. However I believe time will prove me right. Let us all sit back and see what happens shall we?
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P.S. I have been assured by someone at the JNWW Co. that private bore-holes and others not dependent on the JNWW Co. supply WILL NOT BE METERED.
Hopefully this will turn out to be the truth, if not there could be quite a few unhappy people about!!!
For all those with their own supplies may I suggest they petition their own deputies to make sure this is the case?
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Its not the metered cost of the actual water you will be charged for. You will then get a 95% same volume charge for waste water if on main drains
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Have they the power in Law to do this?
Just another stealth tax.
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While I agree with the idea of metering, I have to confess that property is not on a meter !
However, my neighbours property is metered which is a good thing, as it showed up that she had a leak, which left undetected could have resulted in both properties suffering susidence.
A lot of water does go to waste when it rains. When we go on a meter, I would comsider installing a rainwater tank for collecting water for the garden and the bi annual car wash. Even grey water from the bath or shower could be used to flush the toilet.
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Is it April fools day?
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This is nothing about ‘preserving Jersey’s water supply’ more about profit. Also please don’t throw in global warming as a reason to meter us. Amother back door tax.
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6 J Lamborrai – this pre supposes a water shortage which I do not beleive exists. Water is a free resource unlike food and power, it should not cost more than the price of collection and distribution and a reasonable profit for the company doing so.
I note with interest that you don’t address my point about JNWW making more money from this venture nor do you comment on the absence of a water draining tourism industry or the additional resovoir we now have.
Metering can only be justified if we have a genuine shortage of water, plug the leaks first and see.
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Somone (5) “article doesn’t mention the £6m cost in meters that will be passed on to customer.”
Nor do you mention the cost of Jersey living beyond it’s aquatic means, a cost which is likely to far exceed the £6m you resent.
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9.John. Agree totally have 1 borehole for three residences . Perhaps ‘All customers will have water meters ‘ was a bit subtle for the copywriter?
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Mark number 8 – Yes that would be a answer possibly in my case, however take a converted property with several apartments. A young family of say 4 – 2 adults and 2 children, and next door a retired couple. If a meter reading is taken and averaged out, effectively the retired couple are paying for half of the families water usage.
I know that is an extreme example, but it will be fairly close to the truth in many circumstances.
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And the next cost is for cleaning the sewers that are not being flushed with enough water due to everybody economising.
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@ Mark #8
“Great, but what about the next step; smart meters?…”
What do you mean by a ’smart meter’? The smart meters I’m familiar with for gas/electricity, are smart in the sense that they can be read remotely; I don’t see this as necessary for water meters which a usually at the point of branching/spurring away from the main supply to the individual property, and as such don’t require access to the private property. To read this sort of meter remotely seems to be unecessarily complicated.
@ john #9
“…They’re not setting foot on my property…I survive on rainwater alone ….collected in my tanks on my land…”
Whether you use it or not, if you have a mains supply then you’ll be getting a meter, and as I’ve said above the meter is usually not on private property IIRC. Do you really use only rainwater? what sort of treatment plant do you use? I was looking at plant a little while ago for treating well water.
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Lots of people seem to assume that boreholes and wells shouldn’t be metered – why not? Perhaps on a lesser rate than mains water, and maybe the revenues go straight to the public purse rather than to Jersey Water, but the water drawn from a borehole is not exclusive to the land the borehole is sited on (in fact very little of it is) and the impact of too much extraction could be to damage the water table for all. I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect people on boreholes to apply discipline to their use of water and meters are the best method of achieving that.
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@ Mulvie Le Phew #17
“…this pre supposes a water shortage which I do not beleive exists…”
What does? My post doesn’t? if you mean the article, then perhaps it does, but I very much doubt that they’ll increase the reservoirs without making a good case for doing so first. Maybe you could argue that point then.
“…reasonable profit for the company doing so…”
I’ve asked before what a reasonable profit is, nobody’s ever given a good answer. You could have a go now… but feel free to answer 4questions I already asked you that ‘I note with interest you didn’t address’
“…I note with interest that you don’t address my point about JNWW making more money from this venture nor do you comment on the absence of a water draining tourism industry or the additional reservoir we now have…”
Okay I’ll comment on your guess work; JerseyWater may make some more money, they may make less, I would hope that any increase in charges would bare relation to increased costs(which is hard to argue against) and this should be simple enough to tell from the accounts which I believe are made available to the States at the very least.
As for the tourism comment and additional capacity. Unless you’re claiming there is a significant surplus of water storage capacity I don’t see this as an issue at the moment. I do not have figures to hand as to the usage historical or current of the tourism industry, what figures are you using to challenge JerseyWater?
“…Metering can only be justified if we have a genuine shortage of water…”
Regardless of whether there is a shortage or not, why should I pay more than you if I use less water? If say council services whether a flat charge per person rather than rated against a property would you think this fair?
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As pensioners our demand for water is minimal now but the danger is that families on low incomes, will drastically cut down on water usage and thereby causing a health hazard. Once again, it is hitting young families struggling to bring up their children responsibly. Water is our most recycleable commodity and freely given, so we should only be expected to pay our share towards the cost of collecting, purifying and distributing it. There is an excellent case here for a publically owned, non profit-making utility
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The decline of the tourist industry has been matched by the rising affluence of the population and the demand for more water.
Car washing, garden watering and swimming pool filling.
In addition to Queens Valley the JNWW is collecting the water from the stream at Greve de Lecq and has boreholes as well that were not there when Queens Valley was built.
Jersey is actually a small and quite dry island with limited water supplies.
Fresh water is not unlimited and already in many parts of the world rivers like the Rio Grande and the Jordan no longer flow in to the sea.
The CoM’s vision of an expanding and ever more affluent poulation may be about to run into its first concrete wall!
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mistershifter (20) “retired couple are paying for the families water usage.”
Agree totally with your point, that is what is so unfair with the current standing charge; a standing chage we all share regardless of use.
I think you have missed the point of meters.
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This is a good progressive tax. Well known fact that poor people don’t wash (except their Fords) so good news for everyone.
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L Jamboree if you think Jersey Water are doing this to make less money you are kidding yourself, as others have said it’s a scam to make more money.
If you want to go onto a meter cos you think it will save money you can do now, just ask Jersey Water.
You don;t need a plant to treat well water, it’s water that’s unwell that needs treating!
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#25
Agree
A friend moved into new states house 2 years ago and was unaware water was metered and her fist bill for 3 months was £370!
With 3 children to care for she has to lock bathroom door to stop them flushing toilet and leaves it till end of day.
Bath twice a week only.
Same water for all 3 to wash in.
Her next bill was half of first.
Back to victorian times.
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In the 1980s we had 25,000 hotel beds now we have about 8,500 that’s 16,500 more tourists + extra seasonal staff in the days before Queen’s Valley and we managed.
I would not for one minute question JNWW figures but you need not be a rocket scientist to smell something fishy going on,very hard to spin this one
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I personally think it is wrong of the JNWW Co. to be extracting from boreholes as this could well cause other problems to arise. If they want to collect rainwater and sell on at nil profit beyond redevelopment, repairs etc then I would agree with that. I think this answers your question J.Lamborrari.
I do not agree with private individuals making a profit from water which is a necessity of life. I say nationalise the JNWW Co. It should be owned by the island for the island.
In my opinion if the island wanted to save a large amount of water then golf courses would be banned from using any water for irrigation except what they caught via rainfall. This would happen if the island was truely into being green IMHO.
Pip I believe you are correct that the CoM’s vision of growing the population will cause major problems in the not too distant future in many areas this being just one of them.
Meters are being used as a means of getting in another tax, namely one on sewage IMHO. I think this is probably a major reason for getting everyone on to a meter. By using the green angle and selling it as saving you money, by being economical, it sounds great but it could also be used as a great way to achieve other things at the same time. I myself smell a rat here. On my gullibility scale I personally rate it at 99%.
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23. Mike
I suggest you check out riparian Common Law principles ,which do apply here.
If you return the water to the ground via a septic tank for instance, you have not interfered with the flow and as no one actually owns the water but can only charge for it’s supply, a meter would be totally out of the question.
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‘In the 1980s we had 25,000 hotel beds now we have about 8,500 that’s 16,500 more tourists + extra seasonal staff in the days before Queen’s Valley and we managed.
I would not for one minute question JNWW figures but you need not be a rocket scientist to smell something fishy going on,very hard to spin this one.’
You are ignoring the fact that we have increased the island’s population from about 70,000 to at least 90,000 in the same time period and they are here all year round running washing machines, dishwashers and power showers, etc not just the summer months.
It is just like the island’s traffic, the hire car is a rare sight these days compared with my youth but there are a lot more cars on the road.
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Hows about we use the £6 million towards building a desalination plant, powered by wave power ??! Although using a natural renewable resource will surely not be the preferred option !!
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My advice would be to make sure you go to the toilet and have a wash/shower at work before you come home and you might only be paying the same before the meters were installed!
Get the children if they are of school age to have a shower at school and use the toilet facilities before coming home.
If the children are too young for school you have more of a problem, maybe you could visit your friends and use their facilities as much as possible? Being sociable might actual save you money in the long run.
Use public conveniences as much as possible when out as well. Get in practice for when the toilet tax comes in to be one step ahead of the government.
mike 23. sounds good in principle but what if the worst offenders for water extraction from boreholes/wells turn out to be the JNWW Co. should those who have to pay for their own water use have to be taxed on it as well? There is NO WAY I am paying a penny to anyone else, whether government or JNWW Co. for being responsible for supplying my own water myself.
Also I believe it is more likely than not that Jersey’s watertable is supplied from France. If this is the case then maybe the JNWW Co. and others should be paying the French for the use of their water? Do you think the JNWW Co. would tell us if it was to be proven to be true?
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Pip do you think there are only 90,000 over here? I myself think it is well over 100,000. If we don’t really know the population level how can we plan for our water needs?
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‘Hows about we use the £6 million towards building a desalination plant, powered by wave power ??! Although using a natural renewable resource will surely not be the preferred option !!’
Another crazy idea.
£6M would build a tiny plant that would produce nothing like the amount of fresh water needed.
Long term we will have rationing by means of meter.
The poor will live with permanent water shortage, the rich will pay huge amounts for the resource.
It is the Jersey way!
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Commentators have touched gently on the subject,but may I amplify the issue as its also a concern of mine.
The basic utilities are essential to everyperson and business that lives on Jersey. Gas Electricity water telephone are consumables that should be owned completely by the island.
We are aware this is not the case. When for years we have been told to insulate better to save electricity suddenly the real cost jumps a staggering 24% ( then reduces a little)supported a majority in the Government. The shares are very sort after.
The point I want to make is why can the shareholders of the utility company’s hide in trust companies, nominee names and other secretive schemes? This does nothing for the confidence of the islanders.
Jersey with whiter than white transparent financial regulation, nothing wrong with owning shares, so why the smoke screen ?
Davey.
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No 30,
Your friend should encourage her children to shower rather than bath as soon as they are old enough.
She should show them how to shower properly ie:
Turn on shower and wet full body.
Turn off shower, wash body with soap/gel.
Turn on shower and wash soap off body.
Showering this way uses around 1/15th the water of a bath and is much more hygienic. (you are washing in your own dirt in a bath)
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It just sounds too obvious to me so I am sure JNWWCo have considered this but…
We live on an island surrounded by life giving water.
Why not set up a modern, wave (or solar/wind) powered desalination plant(as mentioned by 35 above).
Then maybe we can drain Queens valley and reclaim some more land?
The salt extracted from the sea water can be exported, thus producing more income.
What ever happened to the expensive cavern built under or around Fort Regent to store water?
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#dave,she uses the same water for all 3.
Hardly anyone had bathrooms years ago and had to wash in a sink!
My family was lucky we had a bathroom.
1 bath a week was what we had for all 5 kids.i was third so had 2 body,s worth of dirt to wash in,youngest one had 4 before her.
That was the norm in those days and i don,t remember anyone smelling either.
And no illness apart from german measles and the odd cold.
Many living in town had to wash in a big belfast sink in a yard shared by neighbours.
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The problem as I see it came from the in house competition which evolved in the mid to late 1960s among distributors in the British Motor Corporation water network. This led to what is referred to as “badge engineering”. One of the more bizarre results of this was the arrival in 1968 of the Austin Minor, a downmarket, commercial variant of its cowley built counterpart. Such was the influence of the longbridge lobby. Austin badged Morris products continued to be sold in Australia and other former commonwealth markets until well into the 1970s. The same thing is now happening with Jersey water and it can only be a matter of time before it ends up in the same state as the erstwhile British Leyland.
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42 Bella – #dave,she uses the same water for all 3.
Hardly anyone had bathrooms years ago and had to wash in a sink!
My family was lucky we had a bathroom.
1 bath a week was what we had for all 5 kids.i was third so had 2 body,s worth of dirt to wash in,youngest one had 4 before her.
That was the norm in those days and i don,t remember anyone smelling either.
And no illness apart from german measles and the odd cold.
Many living in town had to wash in a big belfast sink in a yard shared by neighbours.
Luxury, there were 9 of us living in the street, we stood in line when a dog went past hoping to get peed on. Sometimes when dad came back from t pub he’d play football with us wit youngest as ball, Mrs Miggins down’t road took pity on us and let us lick out the dogs bowl. Me oldest brother Brian lost his arm earning scraps bear baiting, my eck the scraps were good and he didn’t use that arm anyway, happy times.
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“Lots of people seem to assume that boreholes and wells shouldn’t be metered – why not?”
Simply because the water that is extracted by boreholes and the like is not the property of the JNWW Co. I have a borehole that serves two other properties as well as my own. If JNWW want to come and connect me to the mains then, yes, they can put a meter on my supply. Until then, they can get lost.
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Going back to the article…
Presumably the states will not take the raising of Val de la Mare reservoir by 9 metres very lightly.
This will surely cover the popular walking/running pathways and will mean another simple pleasure being taken away from us all!
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I believe what is behind this move is that the population growth ,pushed by the CON.is stretching all our infrastructure,look how long to be seen by the hospital for a scan,so more water being used,now let’s meter it, imply it is free,then charge on the bills. Taxi’s have meters.which the drivers buy in order to supply fare information.the Waterworks has done fine for many decades without this malarky…now because we are drowning in over population.and all because they wont reign in the spending,every minute detail of island life is becoming taxed or at a premium,the quality of island life is being eroded at an alarming rate…we are the people, we can stop it…are we going to be united or keep getting it where we don’t want it…?
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The States do not care about the one thing that makes living in Jersey so attractive to many and that is the quality of life.
Eventually it will be degraded to the point where a majority of the population will be migrants on the global money go round circulating from a contract in London to Jersey and then maybe Geneva or Hong Kong.
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@ bella #30
“…her fist bill for 3 months was £370!…”
@ £2.33/M3 that works out at about 1,750litres a day!
“…Her next bill was half of first…”
Allowing her 200litres (a huge amount) per bath and 25litres to flush her loo each day I still question what your friend is doing with the other approx. 800litres of water she’s using each day!
I’m assuming her water supplier is JerseyWater, not Evian?
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@ Adrian #32
“…I think this answers your question J.Lamborrari…”
I’m not sure which question of mine you’re referring to; did I ask for a show of hands from the communists in the room? I know you like the idea of your utopian society Adrian, but at some point you will have to accept that not everybody want to be assimilated into your fantasy, and that many of us have to live in the real world.
# 36
“My advice…”
So you think metering is a form of tax, and your advice is to avoid this tax by passing your use onto the ‘tax’ bill of another party (employer, tax-payer or even your ‘friends!). Well I’d like to say how disgusting that sort of encouragement of ‘tax’ avoidance is, and I call for public toilets that encourage this sort of avoidance be made illegal, and anybody laundering for a third party should be treated with the same contempt that bankers are!! [/sarcasm]
“…Jersey’s watertable is supplied from France…”
OMG! Is there nothing you can’t excuse Jersey of syphoning offshore!
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OK, some varied comments but lets look at the facts ! Jersey Water charge you £2.33 per cubic metre – I confess that I did not know what this was but it is 1,000 litres – that’s £0.00233 per litre. (And a bottle of Evian is how much ?)
So with a modern 6 litre toilet cisten, each flush costs you 1.4p To wash my car, and use 30 litres, that’s about 7p – Bit cheaper than putting it through the car wash. Use the dishwasher, about 10p
What is not understood by many is that Jersey Water basically maintain a significant infrastructure to deliver pure, drinkable water to your home, and this is what you pay for.
I speak as someone who used to be on a shared bore hole with two other properties. Great, we had free water, until it was discovered that the water was acidic and eating away our pipes. Also the pump had a habit of breaking down at the most inconvienient moment, we had to buy and install a sofener etc etc. and I had to virtually re-plumb my house.
In fareness to all, metering really is the way to go.
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““…Jersey’s watertable is supplied from France…”
OMG! Is there nothing you can’t excuse Jersey of syphoning offshore!”
I know that you are beginning to ruffle a few too many feathers on here, J.L., but the above witticism makes up for it. You’re a star!
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@ truthseeker #46
“…the Waterworks has done fine for many decades without this malarky…”
This malarky as you call it is simply unfair truthseeker; are you saying that you have no problem with two people paying the same for their water, when one is careful in an effort to avoid waste, and the other doesn’t give a damn ’cause water’s ‘free’ and just leaves their tap running.
How can you say that is fair?
If the States took the same approach and introduced a simple ‘Community Charge’ style tax in place of GST you’d moan about that wouldn’t you?
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the foolish ask questions the wise cannot answer.
Oscar Wilde.
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There is absolutely no good evidence that France’s water table spreads out from the French coast towards Jersey and good reasons to believe that it does not given the type of rock in this part of the Channel.
There are places in the Mediterranean and off the coast of Australia where there are offshore fresh water springs but the circumstances are completely different.
I tend to the opinion that excessive ground water extraction through boreholes in St Ouen’s bay and other low lying areas is risking the possibility of salt water intrusion into the freshwater aquifer below the island.
This is already beginning to occur in the Nile delta. The farmland that sustained the rise of one of the most ancient of human civilisations is now being destroyed by the technology of what may be the last human civilisation for some time!
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Has any-one ever heard of a garden?
A garden needs watering,more so if weather hot and dry and the rain water butt is empty.
My friend has 1 such small garden and like me she grows own fruit and veg that needs watering-regularly
Does that mean all foods grown in Jersey will rise steeply as suppliers will have to pay a lot more for water?
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We have always had a water meter – as should everyone on mains water. You should pay for what you use
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We have no Mains water, Jersey Water confirmed that we would not in the foreseeable future be getting mains. 3 years ago we invested around £14,500 in a bore hole and complete re-plumbing of our property. If they want to meter and charge for the water we have already paid for then bring it on as I will never pay it, unless of course they provide mains and refund the cost of the Borehole…..I think not !!!! What happens when the Borehole runs dry (which they do) is JW going to drill for another one? Again I think not……..
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@ bella #56
“…My friend has 1 such small garden…”
Are you saying that’s where all the extra water use is from? It still works out at about an hour a day everyday watering, and let’s not forget that’s her 2nd quarter, before that she was watering for about 2hours everyday; I simply can’t recall any recent 6month period of such drought in Jersey.
Even if I were to accept your fantasy figures, and accept that this wasn’t water simply being wasted I still maintain that it’s a perfect example of why metering is needed.
“…Does that mean all foods grown in Jersey will rise steeply as suppliers will have to pay a lot more for water?…”
Most commercial growers will have their own supply reservoirs, and or will be metered already. So these plans might even lower the cost of their metered water in real terms over time.
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God give me strength!
And I,m an atheist
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Just to help J.Lamborrari as he has forgotten what question he asked!
J.Lamborrari post no.24 second paragragh second line. “I’ve asked before what a reasonable profit is, nobody’s ever given a good answer. You could have a go now…”
This was answered by myself in post no. 36, paragragh no.1 in which I stated “I personally think it is wrong of the JNWW Co. to be extracting from boreholes as this could well cause other problems to arise. If they want to collect rainwater and sell on at nil profit beyond redevelopment, repairs etc then I would agree with that. I think this answers your question J.Lamborrari.” This to me is a reasonable “profit”, as I don’t think anyone should be profiting from life giving water.
“Most commercial growers will have their own supply reservoirs, and or will be metered already. So these plans might even lower the cost of their metered water in real terms over time.”
I can’t see the JNWW Co. paying for these meters out of shareholders profits can you?
Also if you think not then what about the toilet tax which I think is bound to be around the corner and which will be much easier to be implemented once water is metered?
Furious you need to petition your deputy or what you fear might happen could well happen! It wouldn’t surprise me one little bit.
pip you may be right but no one knows for sure. I myself think it is possible that Jersey’s water table is fed from France. If this were to proven then wouldn’t this undermine the JNWW co’s case for charging people for extracted water?
I whole heartedly agree about salinity entering the water table. Do you think the states could be trusted to see that this couldn’t happen?
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@ Adrian #61
“Just to help J.Lamborrari as he has forgotten what question he asked!…”
I know what I asked for; ‘…a good answer…’
Personally I don’t think that suggesting that a company should work for nil profit is a reasonable answer, but I’ll respect your view that you would like to see the world become a communist uptopia, I just think that this isn’t practical, desirable or possible; and therefore try to keep any discussion within the realms of what is realistic in the real world.
“…I can’t see the JNWW Co. paying for these meters out of shareholders profits can you?…”
The cost of the meters is an operational cost, it will no doubt effect profits, but it wouldn’t be accounted for as being paid for out of the Company’s profit.
“…toilet tax… …will be much easier to be implemented once water is metered?…”
I think that it is not unreasonable to be charged for the carriage, treatment and disposal of waste. I agree that implementing a specific charge for this will indeed be easier, and fairer, if combined with a metered charge for incoming water (assuming standard domestic usage) If a metered, fair, charge was to be implemented, I would like to see some form of recognition for the reduction in this cost from the source with which it is currently funded of course.
“…If this were to proven then wouldn’t this undermine the JNWW co’s case for charging people for extracted water?…”
No.
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Nice and short! WHY. Jersey water a little bit in financial trouble me thinks! Lets just hope they dont go down the same route as Jersey Gas.
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@ Helen Back #63
“…WHY…”
Because it would be more fair than the current system.
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J.Lamborrari “I just think that this isn’t practical, desirable or possible;”
You would do being a capitalist and wanting to exploit every avaialbale resource for profit. As per your views I can’t respect them as they can only result in economic/environmental meltdown which is no good to anyone or anything IMHO.
I think not only is it practical, desirable and possible, it is an environmental necessity as well the morally correct thing to do. No one should be profiting from water, especially a private individual IMHO.
I believe the environment comes off second best when profit is the motive for supplying water.
There’s five very good reasons for doing it!
Do you honestly believe these meters won’t be paid for from increasing the cost of water to the customer?
“I would like to see some form of recognition for the reduction in this cost from the source with which it is currently funded of course.”
If you believe that will happen you’ll believe anything IMHO.
“…If this were to proven then wouldn’t this undermine the JNWW co’s case for charging people for extracted water?…”
I believe yes it would as the JNWW Co. wouldn’t be selling Jersey water, they would be selling French water.
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‘pip you may be right but no one knows for sure. I myself think it is possible that Jersey’s water table is fed from France. If this were to proven then wouldn’t this undermine the JNWW co’s case for charging people for extracted water?’
You can think what you like but some time ago test holes were bored in the island and the water was analysed.
By using various analytical methods it is possible to estimate how long water has been in an aquifer and from where it has travelled.
No evidence was found for the water having come from France.
One definite method for settling the question would be to have an airborne survey like this carried out betwwen the coasts of France and Jersey.
http://www.cprm.gov.br/33IGC/1351909.html
If the two areas are linked hydrogeologically one would expect to find freshwater plumes where cracks in the seabed allow some of the freshwater to escape.
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@ Adrian #65
“…As per your views I can’t respect them as they can only result in economic/environmental meltdown…”
My view is that water metering is a good idea, because it is fair to the consumer. Take bella’s friend for example if I lived in an identical house next door to her and we were both rated rather than metered she would be using approx. 800litres of water a day, but paying no more than me.
JerseyWater set their pricing to cover their costs, therefore people with normal or below normal usage end up subsidizing bella’s friend’s plantation running costs.
How does metering water usage lead quicker to either economic or environmental meltdown than that?
“…I think not only is it practical, desirable and possible, it is an environmental necessity as well the morally correct thing to do. No one should be profiting from water, especially a private individual IMHO…”
I can’t argue with your desires, but it is not practical or possible(realistically), and although asked before you’ve refused to give an answer to show I’m wrong.
I disagree with you on morality, which isn’t much of a shock as even you disagree with you on morality depending on how choosing your morality to fit you needs in any given argument.
“…Do you honestly believe these meters won’t be paid for from increasing the cost of water to the customer?…”
I believe that some people will find their bills increased, some will find them decreased. The meters are part of the cost of supplying their water, so ultimately their payment for water will pay for them.
“…If you believe that will happen you’ll believe anything IMHO…”
I think it’s more likely to happen than much of what you believe Adrian.
“…I believe yes it would as the JNWW Co. wouldn’t be selling Jersey water, they would be selling French water…”
What a stupid argument! You do know that much of the rainfall collected in Queen’s Valley probably started life outside Jersey’s borders right?
Oh no a tree got blown on to my car! who do I sue; the wind was from the east, so I guess it’s a French wind right?
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Im thinking of starting a company if anyone is interested! Im calling it Jersey Air! What i will do is meter every person on every breath they take. I know i dont own the air but what the hell its a win win situation. Oh yeah the meter will be free but you have go to a doctor to fit it at a cost of say £600.00 sounds fair.
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The great spin off of the ongoing Lamborrari V. Adrian saga is that the more they argue, the more they reveal about themselves.
I used to believe that Adrian was a benevolent socialist, attempting to redress the right wing bias in Jersey.
Now, following his admission of side stepping the phone and parking charges at the airport, there are worrying indications that he may well be, fundamentally, a tight wad. However, that probably puts him in good company with much of the Island’s population!
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Helen, I’ve been forecasting breathing licences for the last thirty years. How much better, as you suggest, to introduce pay per breath.
There is nothing new about selling something whose ownership is questionable, my favourite was the auctioning of the radio spectrum by Offcom.
J.L. “You do know that much of the rainfall collected in Queen’s Valley probably started life outside Jersey’s borders right?”.
Time for the Murdoch empire to branch out into Sky Water?
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Someone (5).
It might not mention that costs will be passed on to the customer but the money has to come from somewhere. Whether this is through increased water bills in the future or a grant from the states Joe public still pays.
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@ C Le Verdic #70
“…There is nothing new about selling something whose ownership is questionable…”
What is questionable about the ownership of JerseyWater’s treatment and pumping facilities? Their water mains infrastructure etc.?
“…Time for the Murdoch empire to branch out into Sky Water?…”
I have to admit, I really don’t understand that comment??
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@ UK Student #71
“…Joe public still pays”
… for the service he uses.
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Of course standing charges will go and we can pay after we have received the product rather than upfront?
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@ Andy #74
The standing charge would, I imagine stay, as this is not a metered charge; but metering would allow for payment after consumption rather than payment in advance.
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Once we’re all metered they’ll know where all the water is going, fix the leaks, and then find that they have enough water to go around. But people will be using less. So they’ll put the prices up so that they can bring in as much income as they used to.
The customer won’t win!
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Well done Jean it is pretty obvious this will happen IMHO. Someone will have to be paying the shareholders their dividends won’t they? Just think if no dividends were paid then prices could fall. Nah we’re not going to have that are we? Let raise prices as much as we can get away with. Then when we have gone as far as we dare we can sting them for a toilet tax can’t we? This is how I read things as panning out.
And there are some people on here who think the customer will win from this. Oh dear oh dear gullibilty score for these sorts 99.9%.
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When we moved to our current house it already had a meter. We are 2 adults, 1 child. We all wash daily, use the dishwasher once daily, do several loads of laundry every week. The car might get a wash on its birthday, but with a bucket. We flush our toilets when used! Our water bill is around £70 per quarter, which is quite a bit LESS than the standard quarterly charge we had before on a smaller property.
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@ Adrian 77
I don’t expect you to answer this Adrian, as it’s none of my business really, but I would be intrigued to know what you do for a living, seeing as you hate the idea of anybody ever making any profit.
Jean Poole says the customer won’t win, but I think they will, you say I’m gullible, but when there are people like bella’s friend using such enormous amounts of water then how is the customer like me not losing under the current system where I subsidise her farm?
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#72 “What is questionable about the ownership of JerseyWater’s treatment and pumping facilities? Their water mains infrastructure etc.?”
Nothing, J.L., I was writing about air. Oh, and then about the spectrum just below the rainbow. Both of these have no owner, except perhaps God.
““…Time for the Murdoch empire to branch out into Sky Water?…”
I have to admit, I really don’t understand that comment?? ”
Why not JL? No Sky TV in Jersey, or something?
It’s hard to say where water “started its life” but the consensus is that rain drops form in the sky albeit lower down than Rupert’s leased satellites.
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I understand your disquiet, Adrian, and tend to agree with Jean Poole that utility companies will put the prices up so that they can bring in as much income as they are used to – after all isn’t this what has happened with energy saving bulbs? Less power for them to supply but the bill stays the same/gets bigger.
However my experience in the UK where SWMBO has metered water and I have a fixed rate but both use very little water, even with a washing machine at the metered property, is that the meter works out far cheaper. things may change if every house is metered, of course.
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J Lamborrari in answer to your question not on essential services like water. Any water company in private ownership is interested in profit. This is dangerous as it can lead to short cuts with reference to the environment.
I have no objection to anyone making a profit but I draw the line at profiteering. As with any profit I would expect the taxman to get 20% after expenses and not a token payment. Does this sound fair to you?
As per a living I live on as little as possible, earn very little from a paid job in comparision to the vast majority in Jersey and am as self sufficient as possible. I am not prefect and have never claimed to have been. I am not focused like a laser on money as I see it for what it is. I do not and never have had any direct association with Jersey’s only industry. Regardless of what you think from a purely humanitarian point of view, for those employed in it over here, I would see no pleasure in finance going, however this is not the whole story is it? If I had my way I would be building alternative industries up to take the slack for when the ballon goes up. There are and always have been alternatives however it takes people with a bit of lateral thought and an ability to work outside the box to get results. I see very little of it in Jersey and some of what little I have seen has been ignored by those in charge. This is how I see things others are free to disagree if they so wish.
As per water under the island if this is proven to originate from France then the JNWW Co. is taking a resource which isn’t theirs, without the owners consent to sell on and make a profit from as far as I can see.
I also find it a feeble excuse that the JNWW Co. need people on meters to cut down on leaks. Another red herring as far as I’m concerned. If they haven’t got the ability to monitor leaks now then they shouldn’t be in business IMHO.
What do you think should happen in the following example?
An elderly lady got a bigger water bill than expected. She rang the waterworks and was told she had a leak. She said no she didn’t however they said to call a plumber out. As she had no option she did as she was told. No leak was found in her house it was outside before the meter in the road. It cost her a £100 for the plumber to prove to the waterworks that it wasn’t her fault that her metered water bill was so high.
I would prefer the government to come clean and say they are after bringing in a toilet tax, why the smoke and mirrors, about leaks and a better service to the customer and saving the environment? Spin of the highest order IMHO.
RB I hear what you say but I wasn’t born yesterday. As far as I am concerned you get everyone on metered water then you can put up the price per unit until you reach a point where what was once a cheap essential service is now an expensive essential commodity with flutes and whistles on it. It may sound good but I prefer the bulk standard cheap variety which does what it says on the tin and without private individuals taking a cut of profits. Public money should run the waterworks for the island and for the benefit of the people of Jersey as a whole and not individually as far as I am concerned.
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@ Adrian #82
“…I have no objection to anyone making a profit but I draw the line at profiteering…”
So what’s a fair profit Adrian; the 5% a supermarket might make, or the 100% a dressmaker might make?
“…What do you think should happen in the following example?…”
Assuming the equipment serving her property is found not to be faulty then she should pay her metered bill.
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The leak was found outside in the road by her meter should she be paying for this wasted water or not as it isn’t on her premises? What do you think, would you be happy to pay for this if it happened to you?
In answer to your question I didn’t know you wore dresses but I will make it a bit easier to assertain profiteering. One plumber charges you £5 to change a washer on a tap. The other charges you £1,000 for the same job. What do you think?
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44#Alby senior.
Haven’T read this thread for a few days,you made me chuckle.
We lived in a house with a bath only because my da was still in the army 5 years after the war ended, blowing up the bombs in varies countries the Germans left behind and the army got us the house.
The wages must have been very poor as my ma struggled to make ends meet.
Looking at the news nothing has changed,another reminder the gov in UK doe,st realy care what happens to the soldiers today
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@ Adrian #84
“..would you be happy to pay for this if it happened to you?…”
It is not a question of any measure of my joy, if it happened to me and I was found to be responsible for the water usage then yes I would pay, and I would expect her to also; how is it fair any other way?
“…I didn’t know you wore dresses…”
There is clearly much you don’t know Adrian.
“…What do you think?…”
I think that from the information you’ve provided no meaningful comment on profiteering can be ascertained.
Suppose self employed plumber a) charges £5, but has costs of £1: he makes £4 profit. Meanwhile self employed plumber b) charges £1,000, with costs of £999, so he makes a profit of just £1. However neither earns enough to meet the minimum wage of somebody employed. I don’t feel either is profiteering.
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J.Lamborrari suppose you are in the real world where both plumbers worked on the same cost basis for changing out a leaky tap washer? Even you should know washers are pence to buy. Both are self employed and both have an hourly rate of £35 per hour. Which one is profiteering in this case?
As per the example above how can someone be responsible for water use that hasn’t yet reached their premises? If you are prepared to pay for water you haven’t used you must be daft IMHO.
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@ Adrian #87
“…suppose you are in the real world…”
Quite a change of tack for you Adrian, but welcome.
“…Which one is profiteering in this case?…”
Well as both are now on hourly rates there’d be little difference in price surely? Unless you’re still implying we’re still talking about the £5/£1,000 bills? I’ll assume you are, and that your visit to the real world was brief (probably a bit scary ais?). Well clearly the one charging ~2,800% could be seen to be profiteering; but that’s very extreme, my example was 5% or 100% and you couldn’t answer which was profiteering, however using your own figures we’ve ascertained that profiteering is 2,800%… so Adrian does JerseyWater make that kind of profit? Or is your accusation false?
“…how can someone be responsible for water use that hasn’t yet reached their premises?…”
Well I think it’s normal to take responsibility from the point at which water leaves the main to serve your property, although the pipe isn’t on my property, it was still installed by me; so why shouldn’t I be responsible?
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Let me put this as simply as possible. I believe it is wrong for any private individual to be making a return on one of life’s necessities. Water should be run by the island for the island and no profits made after all costs have been cleared to run the JNWW Co. This should help put you straight on this very important issue.
As an extra safety net, should even you not agree with this, I would put forward the environment as an equally valid reason.
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@ Adrian #89
So no profit on life’s essentials, like water or food… can’t imagine you’ll get much interest from supermarket operators you’d like to enter the market to offer competition… even competition doesn’t really fit with a non-profit world IMHO.
Okay, I understand you don’t agree with profit… and I understand that you can’t really identify what constitutes profiteering… and I understand that having lost your argument regarding the old lady’s responsibility to pay her bills how why you’d choose just to ignore it and hope nobody notices; so I guess we’re done with this thread?
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Good old Lamborrari can always be relied on to go to extremes to try and get one over on someone else, when he himself is on a sticky wicket.
I must agree with you about supermarket operators not entering the mains water supplying market. How very astute of you to notice that one. However what you say is so blatently obvious it doesn’t need mentioning to paraphrase what you would say elsewhere.
I have to disagree with you as you do have an example from me on what constitutes profiteering. Even though it had to be reworked a few times to enable you to grasp the basics of what I was on about. Since you seem to be able to miraculously work out what other people mean when they make a typo I am rather surprised that you are unable to work out what I mean. I’d prefer to give the benefit of the doubt, but your attitude makes we doubt your sincerity whether I like it or not. I do hope you don’t think I am paranoid by making this comment. I wouldn’t want you to get the wrong idea.
So you think I have lost the argument with the old lady then? What made you think that?
Okay, I understand you don’t agree with water being an essential service and have none of your own thoughts on this issue so I guess you’d choose just to ignore it and hope nobody notices; so I guess we’re done with this thread then, as even the safety net was of no interest to you?
By the way you never mentioned which colour dress you prefered to wear.
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@ Adrian #91
“Good old Lamborrari can always be relied on to go to extremes…”
What are you talking about Adrian?
I’ve hardly gone to any extreme, I based my question to you on two examples of profit margin, 5% and 100%, neither of which were in anyway extreme; you then gave an example where one plumber charged ~2,000% more than another.
Who’s going to extremes Adrian?
“…when he himself is on a sticky wicket…”
What are you talking about Adrian?
I’ve made my argument clearly and I’ve asked you to explain yours; instead you avoid the argument and try to play a ‘smoke & mirrors’ game of saying I’m on a sticky wicket, when clearly I’m not.
“…I must agree with you about supermarket operators not entering the mains water supplying market…”
What are you talking about Adrian?
I’ve never suggested any such thing; again you’re making things up to try and avoid the actual issue.
“…I have to disagree with you as you do have an example from me on what constitutes profiteering…”
Your example was ridiculous in the extreme Adrian, and when I asked if you believed that your example represented the kind of profits JerseyWater are actually making what did you do? Of course you avoid that difficult question didn’t you?
“…Since you seem to be able to miraculously work out what other people mean when they make a typo…”
What are you talking about Adrian?
Are you saying that you made a mistake somewhere in your example? If so just admit it and try again to state your argument with more care.
“…So you think I have lost the argument with the old lady then? What made you think that?…”
Because I’ve clearly stated my argument, with which you disagree, and I asked you to explain why your believe that she the lady in the example you’ve given shouldn’t be expected to pay her debt to JerseyWater; instead of giving an answer you’ve, yet again avoid the issue.
Care to explain why it is not fair to expect her to pay JerseyWater?
“…Okay, I understand you don’t agree with water being an essential service…”
No you don’t understand Adrian, you can’t because I’ve said no such thing; again you’re just making things up.
“…as even the safety net was of no interest to you?…”
What are you talking about Adrian?
It was of no interest as it’s just such a stupid argument.
Are you arguing that not measuring water use is more environmentally prudent than measuring water use, or that making a limited environmental resource more cheaply available would reduce it’s waste?
Seriously, please try and explain how you come to this conclusion.
“…By the way you never mentioned which colour dress you prefered to wear…”
What are you talking about Adrian?
Why on earth would I Adrian? What point would it make? What has it got to do with water metering, or is it supposed to be a joke of some sort, that I totally don’t understand, or maybe an insult? Is that it Adrian, has you resorted to trying to just make nasty insults (which also don’t make any sense BTW) instead of actual points?
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J Lamborrari “I based my question to you on two examples of profit margin, 5% and 100%,..”
you are not comparing like with like. It is like saying what do you prefer an apple or a pear?
“…Since you seem to be able to miraculously work out what other people mean when they make a typo…”
What are you talking about Adrian?
You sprang to the defence of donald who I think wrote £1M instead of £1B (a typo). However you failed to mention I had made a typo on my post, even though you knew about it. How come?
“Are you saying that you made a mistake somewhere in your example?”
You know full well I did, and I am beginning to wonder whether you were trying to be clever by answering £2B instead of £200,000,000!
“If so just admit it and try again to state your argument with more care.”
I have done and will do, as I can’t rely on you to point it out to me.
“Care to explain why it is not fair to expect her to pay JerseyWater?”
I shall do so in my next post.
J.Lamborrari do you agree with private individuals making a profit from an essential service. Yes or No.
“…as even the safety net was of no interest to you?…” What are you talking about Adrian?
What I am talking about is if profit is to be taken from an essential service then it increases the likelihood of environmental problems.
“…I must agree with you about supermarket operators not entering the mains water supplying market…”
What are you talking about Adrian?
I think the answer you want is below:-
90. J.Lamborrari “So no profit on life’s essentials, like water or food… can’t imagine you’ll get much interest from supermarket operators you’d like to enter the market to offer competition… even competition doesn’t really fit with a non-profit world IMHO.”
Indeed measuring water use is more environmentally prudent as you put it however it doesn’t need to be done with metres on people’s properties does it?
you are saying that “making a limited environmental resource more cheaply available would reduce it’s waste”
No I am not. Are you, as you appear to have done?
I believe these are all actual points and no insult is meant by them.
J.Lamborrari “I totally don’t understand”
You said it not me!
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