AS teachers today vote on strike action following the weekend’s march through town, Chief Minister Terry Le Sueur has again vowed to stand firm over planned cuts.
On Saturday, an estimated 400 workers took part in a rally, organised by Jersey’s biggest teaching union, the NASUWT, and the NUT, to demonstrate their anger over their pay and conditions dispute.
Teachers will also head to the ballot box today to vote on whether to take strike action or not over Senator Le Sueur’s cuts.
The Senator maintained that he was prepared to continue discussions with teachers, but with limits to the pay on offer.
He has reiterated that there is a pay deal on the table for teachers offering a four per cent rise over two years. However, they would get no backdated pay rise for last year.
See Monday’s JEP for full story.
Article posted on 26th April, 2010 - 3.00pm
116 Article Comments
I’m pleased to see that the march was not anything to do with pay, as proven by the large banner at the front of the photo.
We have been told repeatedly that pay is not the issue, 2% guaranteed this year and next not enough then?
If the teachers were as interested in teaching our kids as they are in complaining we’d have a fine educational system.
Suffer little children for your teacher’s greed.
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I can see a lot of unrest in the coming months.
Cost of living rising non-stop and no increase in wages,how are people going to manage?
I don,t expect TLS will change his mind,he didn,t with the GST.
All they are bothered about are the rich the rest of us can keep struggling,for all they care.
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I hope they all remember to vote in the elections (and by-election).
That is the only way things are going to change.
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I have never come across such a selfish lot of marchers. They should try working in an inner city comprehensive school in Birmingham or some other run down UK city. Jersey is an easy life.
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What the problem, 4% over two years sounds good to me plus final salary pension scheme 12 weeks hols a year etc etc. Try working in the privte sector if you are not happy!
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There was hardly anyone there from Jersey – I reckon that over half of the 400 were shipped in for the march – just look at the JEP’s sister paper: http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2010/04/26/teachers-in-jersey-to-show-support/
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I saw the march going through town and noticed most of the protesters seemed to be from the UK branches of the Union according to thier banners inc Birmingham, Nottingham, Guernsey, Essex, West Midlands, Southampton, and the south west.
Looks like a weekend in Sunny Jersey on Union expenses. I didn’t see a lot of locals on the march at all.
What right do these UK unions have to march on Jersey issues, they don’t pay tax here work here live here or send kids to school here?
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Just watched the report on Channel Report on the march and Terry le Sueur’s reference to the general public as “other humans” – wtf?! Proves that the guy really isn’t of this planet!
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There were well over 500 people in the march. A significant proportion of the attendees were local teachers.
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As someone from jersey who was on the March I can confirm that there were actually over 500 people involved. I would like to thank the 100 people who flew over to the island to support the public sector workers in this demonstration. Meaning that there were about 400 local workers and thier famlies marching.
Unlike many people who write on these blogs at least there are some people who care about the cuts in public services and working conditions of Jersey workers,even if they are from the UK.
Many of the speaches that took place at the Opera house clearly spoke about the effect the 10% cut in public spending over the next 3 years will have not only on the public sector but also the private sector who use these public services.
This may have started about pay some 10 months ago but this has grown to be about the total mismanagment of the states finances and the extreme right wing political management of the COM, the expected cuts in public services and a taxation system that will continue to destroy the way of life that we have enjoyed in jersey for many years.
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I expect to see growing unrest as more and more ordinary folks get sucked into the poverty spiral. At present those in charge appear interested in keeping big business and the rich happy. The rest appear to have been left to get by as best they can. Not a clever way to run a society in my book.
MLP and tree hugger a two year deal is a bad thing to go for. It is better to get a cost of living settlement each year. The rate for this year is 3.2% that means if inflation is about 0.8% next year that these workers will see their wages going south. What use is this when you have bills to pay? Also the further peoples’ wages fall the more the tax take gets hit. Who will be making up this shortfall in tax revenues do you think?
tree hugger surely you must realise that an indexed linked pension is the only way to go should you be wanting a bit of respite from the tread mill that is work in old age? Or should people work till they drop do you think? Unless they are rich and don’t need to worry about work that is.
Maybe you should consider a teaching post then if things are so dire in the private sector, as you appear to be implying. Mind you would many be up to teaching for “only” 40 weeks per year? I personally doubt it.
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The usual bunch of uneducated idiots have started writing here again. Did any of you go to school and listen to your teachers.
This is about cuts in Public services…….cuttting the services to you. Can you do with out services to the elderly, the young, cuts in hospital beds. less nurses. Less police, fewer fire engines, paramedics, ambulance drivers etc etc.
The structural deficit Oz keeps referring to is his and le Sueur’s own ffault. If they had not be so stupid as to introduce zero ten taxation to help the rich get richer, Jersey would be better of by £100 Million. Even then last year the tax raised was £16 more than the treasurer expected and he blew it…have you seen the benefits ? This year he got £14 Million and misled the states chamber in a very important debate on public finances.
You people who oppose the march will see before the end of the summer your services will no longer be there. Unless you pay premium prices for them.
Please don’t talk about recession, Jersey was never in one and is not now, the definition of a recession is two consective dips in GDP, when did that last happen in Jersey, 1941 ?
The financial problems are of Ozouf making and the rest of the COM. They couldn’t run a bath never mind an economy.
Remember them come the election.
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Wouldn’t want to be a teacher for double the money – having worked as a technician in schools, i’d rather work with animals at least they appreciate what you try and do for them!!!
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How many of the supporters were flying Pickets? Isn’t that illegal?
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@Mulvie le Phew
‘Suffer little children’?!?! What overblown twoddle.
No children will suffer during the planned imposition of ‘work to rule’ – the States will merely be forced to find some other way to supervise playgrounds at lunchtime (paid supervisors) or cover sick teachers’ lessons (employ cover teachers).
How children WILL suffer in the long term is by having their education system cut. Already they have started to lose
- peripatetic music teachers
- language support teachers
- specialist teachers in certain subjects
…hence our outrage and protest. The education system of this island should NOT have to suffer as a result of the States’ retrogressive tax policies and fiscal waste.
@Toastedteacakes
I spent five years teaching in inner city London before returning to Jersey and was instantly struck at how much more difficult it was to do my job over here. The lack of a decent behavioural policy, coupled with the loss of planning/pastoral time due to having to do break duties and loads of cover…you really should try shadowing a teacher over here one day for a real idea of what it’s like.
At the moment you are speaking in sheer ignorance, having had NO experience of teaching anywhere, locally or otherwise.
As for the ‘lack of locals’…so you recognise every local teacher by face do you? Should we have painted the Jersey flag on our faces just to let you know how many of us were locals? There were hundreds of locals on that march; I know many of them from my 6 years in the education system over here.
I just don’t get what you guys hope to achieve by cosntantly attacking people who get off their backsides to march in protest at the damage being done to front line services in this island.
Do you WANT worse schools?
Do you WANT worse healthj care?
Do you WANT a worse prison service?
Do you WANT a worse fire service?
Clearly the answer to all of the above is YES…as all you seem to do is hurl bilious insults at the small minority of the population who are actually prepared to take a stand against the looming changes that threaten to irreperably damage the society of which we are all a part. Incredible.
Mick
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Mulvie Le Phew – Hi, Mulvie. I marched on Saturday. There were very few placards re teachers pay, and many re public sector cuts etc. I really felt i was marching for a majority, not for a minority. Very clever media bias – I applaud the JEP for their support of Mr Le Sueur but worry that in the end it will come back and bite them on the bottom. I realise that nothing i say will reassure you re the teachers on this island. My laptop is on as i am about to start the big pile of work that i have to complete tonight for the good of the students i teach………the “complaining” we were making was related to our conditions of service. So, i guess next time i check on here i will be slated for the holidays i have, the pension people assume i am getting, the hours i work etc….i am getting just a little tired of it.
Bella – i agree. Having just returned from a trip to the supermarket where i have bought provisions for my family of 4 at a cost of £120, knowing it will be just over a week til i have to return for the next shop. I worry for the future of my children. That is why i marched on Saturday.
Vote em out – always do, always will
toastedteacakes – I have worked in the East End, and Essex. Many of the problems that we deal with here are the same as the problems i dealt with there. Are you aware of the struggle that some people are having to survive right now? This spills into the schools with the children of struggling families bringing their worries into school with them. Not all families in Jersey come from stable homes – are you aware of the problems that are occurring on some of the estates in particular? I am. I deal with them on a daily basis. Do not patronise please.
Guern – there were lots of Jersey people there! Dont believe all you read in the media
….our JEP has done a very misguided article indeed – wonder if the same is the case in yours.
tom h – funny? i didnt see you there? oh, i know….we dont actually know each other do we? so, how do you know how many jersey people were there? yes, the people who came across brought banners, that was their right….the beans were also there.
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5.Tree Hugger – Can you really not answer your own question?? Cost of living up by 3.5% (seems very low when I think how much petrol/food etc has increased of late), I can see why they want more than 2%.
I’ll wait for the ‘lucky to have a job’ come back, or ‘I haven’t had a pay increase so why should anyone else get one’ line. But frankly if you work for someone who hasn’t given you a pay increase in x years then you’re a fool for being mugged off so easily. And if you think the public sector is such an easy number why not get a job there? There’s always vacancies if you have a look.
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Totally agree with Anon.This is not about pay rises but the cuts in service provision you will be seeing in Jersey.The incompetent Chief Minister’s Office ( and that includes Mr.Ogley ) and the incompetent Council of Ministers will leave Jersey in a very sorry state.
By Frank Walker bringing so called UK experts into office e.g Ogley and Pollard ,looks like we’re heading the same way as UK.
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‘Suffer little children for your teacher’s greed.’
Greed is endemic in Jersey, Mulvie, why blame teachers for wanting a little bit of the Island’s cake?
Tree Hugger: ‘…plus final salary pension scheme”
I hope you don’t imagine that that means that teachers retire receiving their final salary and I hope that you don’t want readers to imagine that that’s what it means either.
That might happen with bankers and top capitalists, but for the rest of us public servants it means that our pension is merely related to our final salary. For those unlucky enough to have been forced onto short hours or reduced pay for the final three years of their employment, that means a big reduction in pension.
In my case the final salary pension works out at £13,000 a year and i didn’t finish on reduced earnings despitev the having a good try. Fortunately I took good advice from my union.
I can just about live on that but could you or many of Jersey’s average salary (is it £40K or something like that?) brigade manage on £13K before tax?
Of all the places in the world that can afford decent conditions for public employees, Jersey must be high on the list. So why is this even an issue?
As for supporters coming over to march, well done. Had it not been for travel complications I would have come myself but I did manage to make my local TGWU colleagues aware of the situation in Jersey.
Go on Jersey show the world how greedy and mean the welln heeled elite are. It’s never been easier than with the web!
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The social problems of this Island are very well hidden and it is not until you are exposed in terms of working with children who are affected, or dealing with it first hand – ie drug and alcohol services, health services and police to name just a few, that you can ever understand how bad it is for quite a lot of Islanders young and old. I have a family member living in a flat at le Squez – she tries to keep it nice but it’s not great when the walls are covered in damp and when it rains water comes in from around the windows (which are otherwise closed). It doesn’t matter how many times she contacts housing about this they just don’t give a damn! Unfortunately this is just one family and I am well aware that things are much worse for many more!
Apologies to the teachers on Saturday I was unable to be there as I had to work. Yes this started as a pay issue many months ago but things have escalated as TLS and the wizard bring in their extreme right wing policies which will see those in poverty struggle further in order to protect the rich and prevent them from paying their fair 20%.
…and I had to laugh when TLS referred to the public as “humans” (quickly correcting himself to people) on Channel Report tonight.
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Katie, you haven’t got a clue what “Flying Pickets” means.
Anyone can support a march. Picketing is to do with preventing entry or advising against entry to a workplace. I’m sure you are clever enought to know that really, but your mock horror at perceived lawbreaking must impress a few readers.
These were supporters. Good on them for coming, most likely at their own expense, like my trip would have been.
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Comment no 15 referes to people “struggling” to survive hear,are you joking?
The island is infested with Range Rovers,
Aston martins,Mecs,Porsches BMWS!! I could go on.
I guess that would indicate that people are hardly struggling.
Or theres a lot of people with hang ups!
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Teachers ARE currently paid fairly in my view but evidently not as much as they wish to be paid. Nurses & firefighters are underpaid in my view (given the excellent work they do) but I don’t put school teachers in this category. In today’s economic climate people (teachers included) should be glad to be employed and not one of the 1,000 or so out of work. 4% over two years is a good offer – accept it and get on with your job. If you don’t like it then change jobs but please stop moaning.
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@DDT
Thankyou DDT for your post. You have in one simple statement summed up the idealogical divide responsible for so much of the tension on this thread and beyond, in the outside world.
The very fact that your yardstick for gauging the well being of a society involves noting the makes of car that pass you in the road speaks volumes.
Anyone with a job on the front line of public service will testify to the problems that this island has, problems that the likes of yourself would rather deny and sweep under the carpet in order that your own swaddled life be made the cosier.
The fact that there exists this massive gulf between the haves and the have-nots over here is one of the many reasons the teachers marched on Saturday.
That gulf is widening. Idiotic statements like yours only serve to further prove this point.
Mick
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#C Le Verdic# ….meow !
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@22 DDT NFOM
OK, go on then, I’ll bite.
People are struggling – and do you know why I know? Because we are. We only have one wage coming in as finding employment in these times may be regarded as somewhat of a challenge. We have a young child which means that I am the full time career. If I were to find employment I’d instantly “lose” £12K a year in funding the child care costs…. assuming of course finding childcare availability for the whole working week.
Whilst we struggle raising our one child the States have no chance of this family creating any more tax\social security\pension payers for the next generation.
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Mick – How many of you public service people took a stand against 100 million wasted on a rediculous incinerator. The answer is NONE OF YOU because there was no profit in it for you.
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Dear Jon.
I work in the private sector, i have had no payrise for the last two years and it looks unlikely i’m going to get more than 2% next year (if i’m lucky!).
Should i be threatening strike action?
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Adrian “a two year deal is a bad thing to go for. It is better to get a cost of living settlement each year”
Sure in an ideal world yes it is but even you can’t think that current circumstances are ideal. A 2% pay rise guaranteed this year and next is something most of us would jump at, it beats the 0% most of us will get, and this is the point, you and others behave as if states employees exist in isolation. The “we’re not responsible for this crisis” excuse is meaningless, I’m not either but as I live on the same planet I’m paying for it.
Mick and others bleat on about how this is not about money but cuts in services yet we see teachers marching with banners saying “Fair pay for teachers in Jersey” most of us think teachers are getting fair pay. If it is really not about money then refuse the pay rise and put the 2% X 2 years X however many teachers there are towards the services you claim are so important.
16 Jeez Louise – it concerns me that you claim to be a teacher and don’t know that i should always be a capital I when referring to oneself, this is basic grammar. It makes me wonder what the minimum requirement for being a teacher is, the ability to complain perhaps.
17 TB – But frankly if you work for someone who hasn’t given you a pay increase in x years then you’re a fool for being mugged off so easily.
I can only assume that you have never worked outside of the cocoon of the public sector. My employer provides a service for people many of whom have not had a pay rise, how then can he justify an increase in his costs, he can’t and therefore can’t increase my pay, not rocket science is it though no doubt Adrian will say I’m being exploited. There is no point in throwing the rattle out of the pram and insisting on an increase in pay when you know the money is not in the pot, most of us know this and accept it. I think that the mentality of states employees is that we’ve always had a pay rise of at lest cost of living and we expect to get one no matter what the situation in the world outside.
12 Anon – Please don’t talk about recession, Jersey was never in one and is not now, the definition of a recession is two consective dips in GDP, when did that last happen in Jersey, 1941 ?
Not in recession, redundancies at JT, JNWW, Jersey Post and God knows how many other employers, 1000 plus unemployed, thank God we’re not in recession. I can imagine you on the deck of the Titanic, “sinking, no were not sinking, just bobbing about a bit”
People know that this protest is about money, it is thinly veiled as an attempt to retain essential services but if that were so money wouldn’t be so high on the agenda and such a prerequisite. It may well be that services are cut, money is tight and something has to give, so what if our government has wasted money, they are a bunch of idiots what else would they do. There is very little sympathy for the teachers and I fail to see how children will not suffer if they choose to take action, interesting to see that the Guernsey sister site has much the same comments, could it be they and the majority of posters on this site are right.
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@ Disheartened.
TLS (aka Bilbo Baggins) was right to refer to humans and not people. He and his little band led by OZ (King Thorin Oakenshield)are on a misson to reclaim the Lonely Mountain, errr sorry, the economy.
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dear me how my heart bleeds for all of you. What a tough time you all seem to be having.
The answer is in your own hands, if you do not like it go and do something else. Plenty of unemployed who will jump at the chance of your job.
However stop bleating at those who have made the effort,worked hard and done well. Why should they pay for your lack of success!The politics of envy has no place in Jersey
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@Mark
‘in today’s economic climate’..?
So basically you’re saying that anyone living in the place with the 6th highest GDP per capita IN THE WORLD should just ‘be glad to be employed’?
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=je&v=67
Come on mate that’s just sound-bite ideology. We are all glad to be employed but the very fact that people like you think that this is some kind of holy privilege just goes to prove how badly the government over here have got it wrong.
4% over two years is NOT a good offer as it is still below the current and projected rate of inflation, and, coupled with a total freeze on pay from 2009, amounts to a gradual yet persistent diminishing of teachers’ salary.
Meanwhile the head of WEB rakes in 300K a year, countless other business heads pull in massive amounts, the States members see their wages rise by £1000 etc etc etc
I also find it difficult to understand how you exclude teachers from the category of firemen and nurses…on what do you base the assumption that the work we do is somehow of lower value?
Mick
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#22 DDT
i’m hoping you are using irony there. arent the DB owners etc outliers/lucky ones?
having had right wing policies all my lifetime, i would suggest that we have high inequality. indeed i suspect that the lower earners have experienced improved living standrds (generally) but that the gap has extended between tham and the highest earners.
i’ve been to countries with very low GDP, yet have still seen expensive private cars. extrapolation from your interpretation of car values is rather pointless…
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If this genuinely was about cuts to education threatening to damage the quality of the service, I would support the teachers.
However, from what i can see the schools here are ten times better than they were ten years ago: the buildings and facilities seem amazing compared to my day.
Are the teachers marching for the good of the children’s education or is it really just about pay? If the latter, I have no sympathy – they have a good deal as it is (even without 4% over the next two years).
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I think Mick sounds like a “have not” judging by the tone of his letter.
Then perhaps he,s one of the many fighting and marching about with his hands in the air to get extra money to fill his Range Rover.
One cant have missed the pseudo snobbery that exists here,and im quite correct to have noticed the Range Rovers being as “common” as Fiestas these days.
There are a lot of people who would be gratefull to recieve the sort of money thrown around on the “spoilt” and privelaged who are making such a fuss on here.
If they dont like it there jobs could be out sourced to people more deserving than them who would greatly appreciate there “cushy” lives.
No one owes you anything in this life,and if the majority wish to swagger around like peacocks, trying to act “pseudo” rich then the least one can do is take note that these individuals are obviously being paid to much already.
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@Mulvie le Phew
You just. Don’t. Get. It.
Why SHOULD public services have to give up their (below inflation) wage increases to prop up the education system?
Why not tax the 1.1Ks a little harder and use that money instead? Why not charge foreign companies some tax and use that to pay for it? Why must we ordinary workers be forced to spread our limited funds around to keep things rolling for the rest of society?
You would rather we just shut up and take it, clearly. And then next year, when the next round of 3% cuts roll in, followed by 5% cuts in public services (as planned)…well, we just all take that as well.
So long as foreign companies continue to swarm like flies around the tax-exemptive concrete wasteland that is ‘local Jersey’, so long as millionaires continue to grace us with the their presence (in their huge country houses, behind alarmed gates), well, that’s just fine.
Who needs health, safety and education over here anyway? The 1.1Ks can afford to go private at every turn and the heads of the foreign companies live elsewhere so don’t really give a damn.
The finance industry will no doubt be picking up some time soon and the high wages and bonuses will be flowing all over again. The 1.1Ks will continue to enjoy life in the large lane. Corporate executives will continue to cream it in.
And at the bottom of the pile, the ordinary folks of Jersey, your middle to lower earners, now minus 10% health care, 10% education, 10% fire services, etc etc
Clearly this is fine with you, or you wouldn’t be maligning those who are actively protesting against the direction in which the States are leading us.
If you are perfectly happy to let the States roll on with their planned slashing of public services to accommodate the already rich and their own fiscal ineptitude…well, you and I are at such ideological loggerheads that it is barely worth continuing this exchange.
Mick
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Sack anybody who goes on strike and replace them with people who want to do the job. Bet they would soon change their minds if they thought they would lose their job in the current market.
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So Jersey has such a high GDP (6th isn’t entirely accurate as that’s based on 2005 figures) we can afford to dig deeper into deficit huh? The USA also has very high GDP (6th in GDP per person for 2009 per the IMF)and if some teachers would care to read this very recent article perhaps they should realise how Jersey isn’t so bad… http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-news-teachers-receive-layoff-notices,0,453529.story
A bit of internet searching shows MANY school districts in the US are facing massive budget cuts and laying off hundreds of teachers.
I don’t doubt for a second that teaching some of children on this island is extremely challenging, but seriously, the grass is rarely any greener on the other side of the fence.
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ERR what happened to the
http://www.thisisjersey.com/2010/04/16/thousands-of-teachers-to-join-marce-our-investments/
The opera house has a 680 capacity and march organisers said that would not be big enough so arrangements were made to split the march after the opera house was full and direct the remainder to parade gdns so they could be addressed there. Nowhere near the amount expected by organisers bothered to turn up, even though the weather was perfect for such a demonstration.
If this “MASS” demonstration was meant to impress,it failed miserably.(line in the sand, now that was impressive)
Take out the kids, some of whom were too young to walk that distance and had to be carried or pushed in prams, take out those who only came over for a weekend out on union funds, take out the likes of Corbel who were paid to be there, take out the likes of the Pitmans who would receive a telling off from their red friends at the JDA for not showing the flag (T shirts)and it leaves a minority who are only making fools of themselves by trying make out its a time of plenty when all around are suffering.
And give the “its not about money” tripe a rest I heard the chanting and saw the placards.
Why not take what’s offered, bide your time and try for the big one when its possible to obtain. 1 maybe 2 years time when the rest of us (you can be included in this if you want, it may even mean some of your conditions that would benefit the kids are accepted earlier)have got the economy back on track.
And there was me thinking intelligence was a requirement to become a teacher.
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No.32 Mick – It would appear that your grumbling is based on your desire for a highter salary for yourself. If you were a genuine public spirited person you would march against unfairness in other walks of life, not just your own.
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Why are so many people against the Le Seur / Ozouf plan to cut spending on important public services? Surely you can understand that vast sums of money are required for the overseas aid fund and to cut rich people’s tax bills?
After all, how would African dictators be able to afford their limousines, mansions and advanced weaponry for their soldiers without the generous donations from Jersey taxpayers?
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Given the “apparent” level of public anger over the implementation of GST and other increases in taxation it would seem apparent that many of the posts now purporting to protest against government restraint and cost savings are in fact motivated by anti government sentiment rather than honourable intent. The only logical outcome of the success of such behaviour is Government instability and the resulting loss of the financial service business to which our long-term political stability is critical.
Such irreparable damage to our economy can only lead to further increases in taxation, perhaps in excess of UK and EU levels, high levels of unemployment and massive cuts in the public sector in terms of staff, salaries, services and pensions which we are all currently complaining.
The current obsession of many commentators that it is possible to extract an unlimited amount of tax revenue from some elusive oligarchy to subsidise their lifestyle is misplaced. Those that have been attracted to Jersey for the purpose of tax mitigation can just as easily move on to Guernsey or beyond as soon as this motive is removed. The good times have been with us for a long time and whilst many of us have experienced a decline in living standards in recent years we are a lot better off than most and it would do many no harm than to consider this fact before their next moan.
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@PJG
The teaching body told the States that they would be happy to wait two years for the 2009 ‘frozen’ 2% rise in order to let the current economic spell play out. They said no.
As for complaining that we didn’t march against the incinerator, GST etc…yes, you’re right. Maybe we should have.
@Toastedteacakes
My salary is absolutely fine for my lifestyle, thanks very much. The pay freeze won’t really affect me too badly as I’m pretty careful with my finances and live modestly.
My chief motivation in all this is a genuine sense of despair at seeing the island’s education system
- damaged by looming cuts
- treated with total disdain by the States
- vilified in the media
I have the benefit of working daily in a school and WITNESSING conditions with my own eyes. Subjects being taught by unqualified teachers because no-one qualified in that area can be found to fill the gap. Support services being withdrawn. Teachers frazzled and unable to function at their best capacity because of the non-contractual demands placed on them. Rampant misbehaviour of pupils for whom a decent support structure is lacking. I could go on.
It is YOU guys who continually return to the PAY issue. Money, landrovers, salaries…not once have any of you mentioned the quality of education on offer to the CHILDREN of this island and how their lives are being affected by this situation.
You are all so busy finding ways to attack and belittle the teachers that you seem to have forgotten that our prime motivation is a duty to help our pupils succeed. Ultimately it is THEM that we are defending. It is YOUR education system, YOUR children’s entitlement that is at stake.
To scurry back under our rocks and take these cuts on the chin would be to fail the profession and our young charges. There’s too much at stake.
Slag away…
Mick
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@40 Toastedteacakes
Who says I DON’T stand up for other acts of unfairness in other walks of life?
I chose to do the job I do PRECISELY to help other people…and I will fight my corner on their behalf if called to do so.
Cheap argument on your part.
Mick
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Does the Sen. Accept there would be no structural deficit if the COM had not foolishly imposed zero 10 taxation which has lead to the loss of £80Million in tax from overseas companies.
Why then should the Public sector wages be cut to accommodate the super rich of this Island and foreign companies.
What part has mass immigration into the island played in unemployment, does he agree that foreign nationals are taking local jobs and the vast majority of the unemployed are locals ,esp. the young, what hope for my children and theirs.
Middle Jersey cannot afford to get on the housing ladder, what steps ere be taken to help Nurses etc.
Would he agree too much power is now concentrated in too few hands and the government does not reflect the views of middle Jersey.
Does he accept that Jersey has never been so divided in modern times.
When was there a recession in Jersey. there has never been two consecutive dips in GDP. (The definition of a recession).
The silent majority
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29/Not in recession, redundancies at JT, JNWW, Jersey Post and God knows how many other employers, 1000 plus unemployed, thank God we’re not in recession. I can imagine you on the deck of the Titanic, “sinking, no were not sinking, just bobbing about a bit”.
Educate yourself reading the IMF definition of recession then read my comments about unemployment. then comment when your informed.
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29. Mulvie Le Phew. ‘I can only assume that you have never worked outside of the cocoon of the public sector’.
You assume incorrectly. I have worked in the public sector, private sector and have been self-employed. And my experience of both sectors has been in the UK where so-called ‘cushy’ public sector jobs don’t exist.
Whenever I have felt under valued/paid, be it in good times or bad, I have voted with my feet. However that does not mean I begrudge my fellow worker their right to fair pay.
How can it be fair that pay increases by 2% but the cost of living increases by far more? Someone is making out of it and it ain’t the likes of me and you!!
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#31 loadsamoney,
Is your post a joke, tongue in cheek or do people in Jersey actually express sentiments like that?
I’ve an awful feeling that rather too many do.
Just accuse anyone wanting a fairer society of “Envy”, bound to be the simple answer.
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29 MLP
Well said.
I would be happier if the teachers were awarded pay rises based upon performance….then we will see what the real standard of teachers in Jersey is like.
I’m in finance and I know plenty of people who have not had a cost of living pay rise for many years….however if you work hard and are good at your job your performance may help you reach at least cost of living (if there is enough money in the pot).
Mick
I see the goalposts have changed again.
“My chief motivation in all this is a genuine sense of despair at seeing the island’s education system
- damaged by looming cuts
- treated with total disdain by the States
- vilified in the media”
….weren’t you recently bleating that your main grievance was about not being able to “negotiate” over and above anything else?
Also you were bragging that the exam pass levels in Jersey were exceptional but now you say “not once have any of you mentioned the quality of education on offer”.
Why would we when you were all saying how great you were at your jobs not long ago?
“Subjects being taught by unqualified teachers because no-one qualified in that area can be found to fill the gap”
Why is this? There seems to be plenty of qualified teachers in the island out of work looking for substitute work at least. are you saying that teaching qualifications have dropped in general? Is becoming a qualified teacher as simple as passing the average GCSE these days?
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@BS Deluxe
Unwillingness to negotiate = being treated with disdain by the States. Same thing.
Not once have YOU lot expressed concern over how this will all affect the children. Not much. You’re all too busy slagging us over volcanic ash, union issues etc to stop and ponder the effect these cuts will have on pupils’ achievement.
There may by qualified teachers looking for work my friend but the schools are NOT EMPLOYING THEM. They are getting existing teachers to cover long-term absent colleagues instead. All part of the drive to save money. That’s what cuts will do for you.
Mick
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well theres a turn up for the book. i agree with bs deluxe!
no-one likes the idea of public spending cuts – ask the greeks – but there you have it, the medicine is nasty. as for letting the rich off lightly, well, we all would like fairness in society, but when did that ever happen.
what the general public – and by a show of (or rather, lack) bodies, that seems to include the majority of the public sector too – deplore, is the apparent lack of a grasp on reality shown by those protesting teachers.
when plenty of workers are facing redundancy or pay cuts, it is frankly disgusting to see public servants – funded out of all our pockets – crying foul that they arent getting a cost of living rise. fair enough, i wouldnt be a teacher. but then, i thought that career was a ‘vocation’
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Am speechless re many comments on here…….
…….but thankful that there are a younger generation out there who on a daily basis say thank you as they leave my classroom.
The future is bright……
Enough of the teacher bashing please…..it is not healthy.
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Anon,
You keep posting your views about zero ten, which culminate in the statement:
“Why then should the Public sector wages be cut to accommodate the super rich of this Island and foreign companies.”
Zero ten had a simple aim. That aim was to protect the finance industry. Look at the tax take of the States. Look how much comes from banks, lawyers, accountants and employees of financial services businesses. Zero ten was vital to allow investment companies to be ADMINISTERED from Jersey without having to pay Jersey income tax.
Without that, no finance industry. Now, why should a BVI company that holds an investment portfolio of say £100m and is administered by a Jersey Trust Company on behalf of a middle eastern family be required to pay tax in Jersey? What does it get from Jersey that would justify charging it say £2m a year? Why would it stay if it had to pay tax? It wouldn’t, so if we want a finance industry, we need a basic zero rate of corporate tax.
If it leaves, the trust company administrator, the lawyer who advises, the accountant who draws up the books, the relationship manager etc all make less money, pay less taxes etc. I’ll spell it out: less taxes means less money to spend on public services.
So get this straight: ZERO TEN WAS IMPLEMENTED TO PRESERVE JERSEY’S TAX BASE. It was the best option to confront a difficult situation.
Jersey is going towards the rest of the world, where, understand this: LOCAL PEOPLE PAY FOR LOCAL SERVICES.
The truth is simple: for 40 years Jersey has had a standard of living that has been paid for largely by others. Now we have to pay for it ourselves. And that means difficult choices. If you believe the answer is getting “OTHER PEOPLE” (the rich, foreign companies, the money tree in all its glorious forms) to pay for it, you have misunderstood the last decade and the whole point of zero ten.
The issue is simple: we are no longer swimming in money so what are our priorities? I understand you want to pay teachers more, help middle Jersey, help nurses to buy houses, spend lots of money. And you think other people can pay for it.
Everyone wishes you were right. How much easier it would be if you were. But you’re not. You’re wrong. Totally.
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Jeez Louise #52
Are these the same youngsters as mick#43 is talking about
“Rampant misbehaviour of pupils”
Maybe you are a better teacher than him and can control your class ?
Perhaps there is a case for performance related pay ?
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Hello everyone, I am a student at Le Rocquier school. I would just like to mention how hard all of the teachers work, they deserve much more than they get at the moment. I think it is appaling that they are thinking of cutting public sector pay by 10%. The Jersey goverment needs to open there eyes and actually look for themselves how hard teachers work.
Conditions are also getting worse, as they are always working for much less that they are paid for. In the UK they have seperate teacchers just for doing lunchtime duties, here in Jersey they don’t so that more jobs for the teachers are needed. Sometimes it can result in the teachers not being able to have lunch themselves.
You may think that im just a wiinging teenager, but I believe strongly in what is right and will speak up if there is something wrong. This is wrong, and thats why I have taken time to write this.
I hope that teachers do not go on strike and that Mr Le Sueur opens his eyes and gives the teachers what they would like, becasue without teachers there is no learning for the students like myself. We are coming up to a vital part of the year where exams are on the horizon and we need as much support as needed.
Thank you for reading all my rambling,
Alex
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Haricotfou…my goodness I agree with everything you say. The sooner the teachers wake up and smell the coffee the better!
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Mick – Why did you not march and rant and rave when you read in the news that the States had spent 100 million tax payers money on an incinerator to destroy the coastline of Jersey and a residential area. Nothing in it for you?
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Mark (23) Teachers ARE currently paid fairly in my view
but what about all the unpaid overtime, evenings and weekend work. Mark 23 you cannot add up
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Picking up on Donald Pond’s excellent posting (and I only had to read 52 others to get to it) it is about prioritisation indeed, or more precisely deprioritisation. Talking up the need for better conditions for teachers, nurses, policemen and paramedics etc etc ain’t that difficult. Having determined that we don’t have enough money for everything we would like to provide as an island, the really difficult bit is being clear about what we are going to stop providing. That it is difficult is a statement of the bleeding obvious – look at how the UK polotical leaders are struggling with this. So let’s uncouple our hands, finish our songs, put away the placards and be bold – what is it that is currently provided that we can live without? Whose job can go? Call them “cuts” if you want to be sensationalist, but this is the crux of the matter.
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Alex #55
AHHH, the innocence of youth.
Sorry to burst your bubble Alex, but when your all grown up and earning a living, hopefully you will look back and understand that in this time of cut backs and redundancies the teachers don’t have it too bad, in fact if you read some of the posts on this site they are much better off than most regarding no redundancies, working hours, pay, holidays and gold plated final salary pensions.
All the rest of us are saying to the militant teachers is, pull in the belt buckle and join us in securing the future of our youth, “you”.
But don’t blame them all when your doing your mundane skilless job due to having a lack of grades due to teachers industrial action ruing your education, they are not all greedy militants, as has been shown by the poor turnout to their march, but its a sad fact that when one is in a union one has to obey the vociferous or be called a scab, or worse.
Mr Le Sueur has “opened his eyes”, and can see that to secure your future we all need to pull together now.
One day I am sure you will look back and thank TLS for his responsible stance.
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Like the vast majority of you, I do not have all the facts and do not pretend to. What I will say which IS fact cost of living is NOWHERE NEAR 2%, regardless of what the States say it is (anyone else notices it is always really low just around pay review date). Parking up 16%, fuel almost 20% in the preceding 12 months, food is up by around 4.5%, so can understand their beef!!
BTW – I’m not a teacher but do think they merit slightly more than this. I have no doubt most work a lot longer than States members who also enjoy their extended summer holidays!
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@Toastedteacakes
The beauty of unions lies in the fact that there is an overarching structure allowing for the organisation of a body of people into a militant whole. No such movement existed for the incinerator. Had there been some kind of organised drive then I would have supported it. There wasn’t, and thus my one-man march through St Helier would have garnered little publicity.
We can only defend our corners, our passions. Teaching is mine; I have dedicated my professional life to it. Hence I will stand up for local teachers when I see the profession under attack.
Next time YOU complain about ANYTHING at all I want you to imagine me standing next to you telling you to simply shut up about it because you didn’t march for cause X or protest over complaint Y or stand up for person Z etc
Why aren’t the UK Green Party campaigning here about the incinerator? Clearly they don’t care about the environment. Why isn’t Bob Geldof going around the homeless of London handing out free food? Clearly he doesn’t really care about feeding the hungry.
We all have a limited amount of time and energy and can only defend certain things as and when we are granted the ability to do so.
To attempt to invalidate my arguments based on my lack of militant omniscience is simply another rather desperate angle of attack. Good luck thinking up the next one.
Mick
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Alex – Where do you think the money comes from to pay your teacher? Answer – the taxpayer. Do you think that your parents should pay higher tax to give your teachers a big pay rise? There are a lot of people in Jersey who work very hard over very long hours and have not received a pay rise for many years. A lot of people are having difficulty paying their bills providing for their families. Why should they have what little money they have taken away and given to your teacher?
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Mick,
I don’t see the problem with what you suggest earlier with many going private, and as you correctly forecast, bonuses and larger salary increases to come to the island. It would be a disaster to tax foreign companies, as then they would leave, and the island would have huge unemployment, thereby having to cut educaiton even further. The island will therefore prosper financially, allowing more people to use the private system, giving better teachers, and of course less pressure on the states. This will then result in others not able to live here having to move to the UK, which will reduce crime.
I am all for it, and so are most voters, which is why we have the macke up of the States we have.
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Quite honestly, the teachers in the UK have a much harder life. They work in much larger comprehensive schools with many hundreds of children and are stuck for long hours in traffic jams on motorways morning and evening. Jersey teachers have an easy life.
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@PJG
Careful – I suspect there’s so much rabid spittle being sprayed over your keyboard that you’re in danger of wrecking it altogether. Go have a lie down. Quit patronising Alex while you’re at it.
@Alex
Thanks for your post, and thanks for the sentiments. I deduct from your tone, grammar and approach that the chances of you ending up with a ‘mundane skilless job’ are zero.
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PJG
May I just say that your statement about having a ‘mundane skilless job’ are not just untrue but rude. Thanks to the teachers of my school I have many skills in different topics.
Sanity
I see your point, but the teachers will be seeing a 10% cut in there pay, not all teachers are being paid much as it is. With this cut they will also have problems paying for food etc.
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Mick 66
If “Alex” really is a teenager and not some pen name for some bored teacher then are you really sure this kids grammar was acceptable??
I don’t want to seem harsh but I thought it was particularly poor.
Maybe this is the trouble with education today…..in this politically correct society it is frowned upon to correct anybody to prevent them feeling inferior in any way!
I’ve heard in some UK schools that team sports are frowned upon because the simple task of selecting a team can upset those pupils deemed not good enough for selection (or picked last)!
Ridiculous….if true.
This can only lead to a degeneration of society in time……anyone seen that silly movie called Idiocricy….this could really be our future
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Mick 66
Furthermore……Alex’s comments smell a bit too much like they have been spoon fed too him/her rather than drawing their own opinion on the matter.
For starters they do not know how much you earn so hoe can they have an opinion on what is fair pay?
I notice the time that Alex wrote this was 10:58….perhaps encouraged by his/her tutor or as a punishment or detention???
Why wasn’t he/she in class at that time of day..learning?!
It doesn’t add up tom me
Then, how would they know what conditions UK teachers work in….or are paid for?
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Solution for teachers and the island … We need better politicians for sure, how though? You need to be already sorted to be able to take their pay, otherwise it’s just not worth it.
Anyway, the solution: scrap 0/10 tax system. Replace it with 5/15. If 20/20 is good enough for mere mortals like us, then 5/15 should be good enough for the wealthy/corporates. And who cares what the OECD think – not me. (I actually think this is a conspiracy of the rich anyway to help sustain the rich-poor gap).
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Well spotted matt the rich need poor(er) people to do their work for them (or rent their property from them). The system wouldn’t work otherwise would it?
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@BS Deluxe
Your inability to spell ‘Idiocracy’ right is the perfect end to an absolutely ludicrous post.
Assuming that Alex is somewhere between the age of 11-16 I would argue that yes, his grammar is of a fairly high level…relative to your own, at least.
On top of that, your response to a teenager venturing on to these boards is to
a) insult him
b) suggest that he is actually a fictitious character invented by someone else
c) accuse him of being spoon-fed his own opinions
d) suggest that he actually knows nothing
Little wonder you don’t care about the island’s education system if this is your view of the island’s youth.
Mick
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BS Deluxe’s attitude to Alex speaks volumes for his attitude to Jersey’s youth and is not untypical of many posters on this website.
We can only hope that such people and their views are in the minority although.
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Mulvie – I am fully aware that I am supposed to be using a capital letter when I refer to myself……and in a formal letter where I would handwrite I would always do so and I always do when I write on the board at school. However, in forums such as this I do not find it necessary to do so (until now). What a shame that my teaching ability is questioned due to my need to type quickly to get all my views across before my internet connection fails. Just so you are aware the minimum requirement onto an education course is a GCSE maths and english grade as well as three ‘A’ levels which entitles you to attend university to gain a degree in education. I hope that you find this satisfactory. I would however like to point out that my intellectual ability, although obviously integral, is just a part of what I need to do my job successfully on a daily basis. The need to be good at listening, communicating, to have a sense of humour, a bright personality, commitment and resourcefulness is just as important. But understanding all of that just doesn’t come into the equation in the current climate. My student’s exam results are always very good. Please stop being condescending.
I will get close to this, by jumping in puddles again this year with my kids lol.
PJG – “Take out the kids, some of whom were too young to walk that distance and had to be carried or pushed in prams” Teachers are also parents. Would you have been happier if they had left their kids with a family member when they have not been fortunate to spend the week with them due to having to work? Some people do not have the choice of whether to work or not! They don’t all have rich partners who allow them to be stay at home parents.
“line in the sand, now that was impressive” – The people who took their kids to that? Did their children count on that event? I hope so, as I took mine.
wellwell – New schools have been built, at great expense to cater for the rising in school numbers and the needs of our new hi-tech generation….this is true. It would be wrong if students were educated in the same environment as we were – technology and communication has become so advanced that the education sector has had to move with the times, at quite a rate to catch up. I suspect that when we went to school our predecessors voiced the same opinions of the opportunities that we had in comparison to them. Plus the fact most schools were riddled with asbestos! I didn’t just march for pay on Saturday – read comment no15 for my reasons.
rudolph hooker – The thing is, despite general consensus on here, not just anybody can be a teacher. I would, however, love to be a fly on the wall if you want to come and take a few of my classes for a while. Don’t worry though, I would happily spend my evenings planning your work, marking the books etc….you just do your best at dealing with some (not all) of the students.
loadsamoney – I do envy some! You are right! I had a conversation recently with an acquaintance who works in the finance industry who was complaining that she didn’t think she would be able to afford the 25k kitchen she had her eye on as she and her husband would not be getting their usual bonus, only to meet up a month or so later to find that the bonus they did have had paid for a hot tub which was beautifully placed in their rear garden
PLG – It is very unhealthy to rate a person’s ability at their job by using a forum as evidence. I am glad Mick is on here. I stand united in many of his views and I believe we marched for the same causes at the weekend. Performance related pay? Not the answer. My comments on here are not written as a competition with other teachers. Mick writes about “Rampant misbehaviour of pupils” and he is correct, there are a small percentage of students who can be out of control. This is not due to the poor education you appear to think they are getting, but due to social issues that are brought into school with them. I remember a time when being a teacher was mainly about teaching….those times are gone, we are a support mechanism for many young people. But, hey, I doubt you will believe me.
Alex – Thank you for your kind comments. I recommend however, if you are in fact of student age, that you read with interest the posts that are on here as a learning opportunity. However, by adding comments on here you lay yourself open to being slammed by people who have nothing better to do but pick on a youngster…..the choice is yours. Don’t you have any homework to do?
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Alex – Most of us are in the same boat having had no pay rise and expected to work unpaid overtime to safeguard our jobs. Indeed many have lost their jobs and having to rely on savings, cashing in their pensions and selling their homes. We all think this is very unfair but that is life so why are teachers a special case?
In your reply you have again not addressed the point as to why more of our money should be forcibly taken and given to teachers? They are doing the job they enjoy, they are well paid, enjoy job security and will ultimately cash in a gold plated pension which again at some point will have to be funded by OUR money. I would suggest that those teachers who think that life is so much better in the real world stop moaning and simply try to get a job in the real world.
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No. 62 Mike – you are correct, it is a taskless task trying to talk reason into a strong willed militant marcher with a lot of unresolved ssues.
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@Toastedteacakes
’strong willed militant marcher’? LMFAO
If only you knew personally you would realise the utter absurdity of your words.
In cases like these I understand the need for some people (like yourself) to fall back on some kind of stereotypical pre-conception of their debating opponent in order to bolster their own sense of righteousness.
In this case you are just plain wrong. If standing up for my beliefs by attending a colourful mild-mannered march through town makes me some kind of jackboot wearing fascist then so be it.
Next you’ll be comparing the Battle of Flowers to the Nuremberg Rally. Get a life pal.
Mick
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@Sanity
You suggest teachers should get a job ‘in the real world.’
Next time you are in town and see a group of sixteen year olds larking about I want you to imagine yourself alone in a room with 30 of them, maintaining a calm atmosphere, imposing discipline through words alone whilst conveying knowledge and maintaining their respect.
Instead of just crossing over to the other side of the street like I bet you do now.
A job doesn’t get much ‘realer’ than being a teacher. I trust you attended a school when you were younger…did that strike you as some kind of fantasy land from which you emerged blinking into ‘the real world’?
All those qualifications you got that enabled you to do what you’re doing now…written on fantasy paper were they? All those skills and all that knowledge you picked up from your teachers…pure fantasy I guess.
Gotta go now; me and Dumbo are flying up to the clouds to join all our teacher friends in a big cream pie fight with the Ewoks. Ciao.
Mick
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Mick #66
Instead of mindless prattle about keyboards and your equally mindless suspicions, how about explaining the poor turn out for the march ?
And Mick, read your own post 66 to Alex, who is “patronising ” who ?
Alex
I am pleased to hear you have many skills and “so far” believe you have received a good education.
Believe me when you leave the cocoon of schooling and enter into the world of dog eat dog you will need all of these skills and the certificates you have earned to get a job that is not a “mundane skilless job’. No matter how much Mick, who is one of the people charged with giving you these skills non realistically assures you from reading your few paragraphs that your chances are zero.
Its the short (yes short)time you are at school that will equip you to cope with the rest of your life,that short time needs to be used for you not as a tool for teachers to improve their pay, terms and conditions .
The teachers are threatening industrial action, If this happens, however they dress up what they are doing it will affect the education of you and your classmates, It is regretful that teachers can even think of using your future as a bargaining stick in their negotiations for betterment of an already good job.
I have no problems with the likes of Mick resigning in protest of what he believes in, or arbitration etc, but threats involving your future are immoral.
You will no doubt spot a few grammer and spelling mistakes in my post.This is the result of poor schooling, unlike lucky you when I started work it was at 14 years old, we were thrown into the labour market and sunk or swam. I have had to live with that for the whole of my working life. I do not want you or your generation to have the same handicaps I had to deal with which is why I am passionate that “no one” has the right to disrupt your education.
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Mick – as I said get a job in the real world although from your comment I am starting to appreciate that things may appear very different from your perspective somewhere in Middle Earth.
In the real world we deal with young people all the time and normally manage this without problem or issues. And yes, I did appreciate the service that I received from “teachers” both past and present and for my own part have taken an active role in presenting seminars and professional training sessions. I also have assisted a number of times in specialist classes in schools and in school trips and enjoyed every minute. In fact I would state that this was one of the most rewarding things I have done and if I had the opportunity would much rather do this than have to work for a living.
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Jeez Louise #74
You say,
“Mick writes about “Rampant misbehaviour of pupils” and he is correct, there are a small percentage of students who can be out of control”
My reading of that statement is that its at odds with itself, but I think I understand what you are trying to say.
I am sure the parents are part of the problem,
But as you have no problems and Mick’s are “rampant” one of you is doing it wrong ?
you say,
Would you have been happier if they had left their kids with a family member when they have not been fortunate to spend the week with them due to having to work?
NO, but don’t let the numbers and therefore the claimed support be slanted by their addition.
Same goes for line in the sand! but that protest could lose a few hundred supporters and still be impressive, if yours lost that number it would not have even happened.
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Alex @55 and 67 – may I say welcome to the forum. From your posts you appear to be a very mature, well educated young person. Just remember that though others may try to put you down your opinion is as valid as everyone elses and I applaud you for standing up for what you believe in. These forums are a great source of debate – which is very healthy as we can all learn from the opinions of others.
Your reference to cutting of public sector pay by 10% – that is not what the States are trying to do. They need to cut total expenditure by 10% because at the moment they are spending more money than they are receiving in taxation. They either need to do this or they need to raise taxation to increase the pot of money they have to spend. However, one way they have been trying to do this is to freeze pay for all those that work for the States – teachers, nurses, firemen, and many more. This, in effect, results in a pay cut for these people in “real” terms as prices in the shops are always increasing – the spending power of their money reduces. The States, after months of battling with the unions, have finally agreed to give their workers a below inflation increase in their wages (2%) – spending power still reduced but not by as much. However, they have stated that there is a condition to this – all those workers must agree to a change in their terms and conditions. This could mean working longer hours for the same pay, accepting that colleagues aren’t going to be replaced when they leave (or retire) meaning that the same work has to be done by less people, and a whole range of other things I don’t want to mention in case it puts ideas into their heads!). There has also been mention of a “gold plated” pension scheme by other posters – basically all those working for the States pay in some of their wages every month, with the States as the employer also paying in every month, to a pension scheme which, when the States employee retires, will pay out an amount which is linked to their salary at the time of their retirement. However, there is much complaining about this from non-States workers as this is seen as a very good deal and one which is costing the taxpayer a lot of money. With all the market crashes etc over the last decade, the States have basically been having to pay in more to fund the pension pot for their workers. However, what many don’t seem to realise or accept is that this scheme was fantastic if you started working for the States many years ago – as the percentage of your final salary that equated to pension was high and enabled you to afford to live reasonably well. However, more recently it has reduced so that those who have joined won’t be able to afford to survive on that pension alone when they retire.
Asides from the pay and conditions debate, the teachers, as well as many other public sector workers, are also concerned about the other methods the States might employ to save money. These might be cutting the amount of money given to the hospital, to schools, and to other services. The impact of this will be declining standards in health care (perhaps not enough doctors employed to treat the sick) and education (perhaps class sizes increasing, reduction in the purchase of text books), as well as many other concerns as the cuts in spending proposed are most likely to affect those in the most need – the young, the sick and the elderly.
Alongside all these goings on is the ongoing downturn in the economy which is resulting in people who work in the private sector (banks, telecoms, Jersey post, etc) being forced to accept pay freezes or pay cuts and redundancies (although there are still some employers (usually large law firms) who have managed to give pay rises at the rate of or above inflation – no denials from the real worldists please as I have friends working in a very broad spectrum of jobs who have said that they have had a pay rise!)
Alex – I hope this has provided you with some sort of a factual nutshell. I have tried to keep my own opinions out of it as you need to be able to make your own mind up. You will see from many of the other posts that there is a lot of bias and debate as to who amongst us lives in the “real world”.
PS BS Deluxe @68 – I agree with Mick and think Alex’s “SPAG” is very good (and much better than a lot of adults on this site including mine!)
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No. 77 Mick – If you had not noticed, the Battle of Flowers is an annual event enjoyed by local and tourists alike. I can not say the same about your colourful march.
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Thank you Disheartened for putting the issues so clearly across so that even those posters who spend there time trolling to get a reaction might have a clearer understanding of the issues all public sector workers face.
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BS Deluxe
Obviously you are a narrow minded person, and think that students don’t care about matters like this, well some are like that, but they choose to be like that. I am different to them, I do care about this island, and I do care about things that are in the news. You also mention that I wrote this at 10:58 that is true, I was in my lunch break and decided I would check out thisisjersey.com to see all of the local news for an island of which I care about greatly.
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Disheartened – You fail to mention that to give these pay rises, taxes will have to increase and that the people of Jersey have clearly stated that they will not accept this. You fail to mention that whilst States Employees do pay into their pension fund, the benefit received is out of all proportion to this contribution and that the public will be expected to pay many millions of pounds into the fund.
You fail to mention the cost to the Island of maintaining the present over inflated public sector and whilst I do no doubt that many do work hard, often there is little benefit to the community.
Finally I assume your reference to trolls also account for the 6000 name petition again GST?,
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Mick….frankly I do not care what you have to say anymore. You have clearly proven (to me at least) that your teaching standards are not very high. To pick on a keyboard slip for my spelling when you condone poor grammar from a “student” YOU may be responsible for says it all!
Alex
If you are indeed a student….when has a lunch hour started at 10:58??
Definitely not at a states secondary school!
….and I hope there were some teachers supervising you using a PC during school time!!
I’m sure they’d appreciate the extra work you have given them to do this
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Alex
Furthermore…..do not confuse narrow mindedness with naivety.
I am certainly not naive and do not believe everything I am told.
You may learn that yourself one day!
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oh Mick….you spotted my spelling mistake for “Idiocracy”, gold star, but please (in your infinite wisdom) grade me on the rest of my grammar.
Your grammar is also lacking judging by your post 72. Ever heard of punctuation marks?
Kettle, black, calling, pot!
….and you are a “professional”?????
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@BS Deluxe. Obviously you did not read Alex’s first post correctly when he mentioned the school he was from. If you had taken anytime at all to look at the particular schools website you will have seen that his first Lunch break of 1/2 an hour is at 10.25 to to 10.55am. So Alex may have been 3 minutes late to his next lesson but I am sure that his teacher made sure he made up the time in his second lunch break. But then that’s not what you do is it BS Deluxe.
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Sanity (86) – like I pointed out in my post I was trying to put across fact as best I could in a “nutshell” – I’d be here all day trying to compile something more comprehensive that is factually based rather than opinion.
I believe most of what you have said to be opinion, but thank you for your input to the discussion. Fact is for pay rises to public sector workers to be awarded, taxes do not necessarily need to be increased. For example, where those who retire are not replaced, the salaries that would have been paid to those individuals can be distributed among their colleagues to raise their pay. True though that increasing taxes would be one method of funding it. In theory, if the private sector are receiving healthy pay rises, this will in turn translate to an increase in tax revenue collected by the treasury. This in turn should contribute to public sector pay rises. Would be interesting to see total tax revenue figures (before any spending and taking into account the average per head of tax paying population) over the last few years. Would be grateful if any other posters know where to find this info?
“…the benefit received is out of all proportion to this contribution and that the public will be expected to pay many millions of pounds into the fund.” You have proof of this do you? By the time I retire (assuming I remain a States employee) I will have paid into the States pension fund for over 40 years yet will still not be able to afford to live off of the so called benefits I will receive. Have the public not had to bail out the private sector recently – I believe that bailing out the banks whose management have been receiving out of proportion bonuses is worse if anything.
“Finally I assume your reference to trolls also account for the 6000 name petition again GST?, ” – I am not sure where in my post this has been said? :-S
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@PJG
So you agree that ‘no-one has the right’ to disrupt children’s education…but you are perfectly happy to stand buy and do nothing as the States take a hatchet to the teaching service over here. Hmm. O…kay.
Poor turn out for the march…500 people? Eh? That’s quite a crowd in anyone’s books.
@BS Deluxe
Sorry mate but if you claim that we are heading towards an idiocracy whilst spelling like you are already in one then you are asking for it. ttfn
Anyway guys I’ve had enough as this is becoming consistently personal and the last thing I want to do is to enter into some pointless flame war. You know my views and boy do I know yours.
Best of luck to all of you, whatever your opinions.
Mick
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Mick #92
“Hatchet job”
your opinion.not fact.
“quite a crowd”
Give over, I’ve seen more queuing for a taxi at the weighbridge after kick out. Most of those weren’t too aware of the world around them either. Not so many prams and toddlers though.
“and boy do I know yours”
maybe, and boy do I know yours
“I suspect there’s so much rabid spittle being sprayed over your keyboard that you’re in danger of wrecking it altogether. Go have a lie down.”
and other such infantile raves
OH that’s right you’ve had your say (last word) and are not going to reply anymore.
Tantrum ?
Prove me wrong.
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Please feel free to look at the link below which will clearly explain to those not used to the workings of a blog/comment page what certain memebrs of this conversation are trying to do.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1082512
but then again i’m sure that someone moderating this site may not let this comment through without editing it because they enjoy controversy. Brings people to their web page, and sells their newspaper. I could be mistaken though.
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Dear Donald.Zero ten had a simple aim. That aim was to protect the finance industry. Look at the tax take of the States. Look how much comes from banks, lawyers, accountants and employees of financial services businesses. Zero ten was vital to allow investment companies to be ADMINISTERED from Jersey without having to pay Jersey income tax.
Since when did big business govern our Island, or are you now open to blackmail. OECD and the European community and the UK will make the Island reverse this unfair Tax breaks. As for your mystic Arabian family, they will not pay tax in their counteries either. This is about balance and fairness. which zero ten is not. Presumably you do work in the finance sector. Do you really ned bailed out by the tax payer to this extent or prehaps you go go out a do something useful for others…like serve the Public of this Island and not concentrate on lining your own pockets. Wake up. See through OZ and his rich man policies.
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I’m a teacher – and I’m not totally happy with the pay thing. Bottom line is everybody I know is totally reasonable. Nobody I know actually wants to strike – we are all far too busy for that, and we feel genuinely bad about the prospect damaging the eduction of the kids we teach, which is why they are all planned for one day, not during examinations etc. Nobody is threatening off island trips for example.
Most people I know are happy with the concept of a pay freeze for 2009, and would be happy to talk about improvements in terms and conditions that don’t cost anything. We just want to have a genuinely open dialogue with our employer, and thats the problem. Terry Le S is playing hardball, I have no idea why. Is it because its the only management style he knows? Is it because he doesn’t actually want to get into revision of terms for teachers to bring them into line with the UK? Maternity rights are a joke, as are many of the other conditions we work under, we have no PRU (go look it up).
Add to this the proposed cuts to the education budget and what have you got? A big mess that won’t fit on a banner – so yeah they say Fair pay for teachers. Read between the lines.
Mick is right about the nature of qualified staffing, and pupil behavior, and you all took the mickey, if, when you have your Range Rover serviced the nice man at Jacksons says it needs oil or it will break, do you argue that it’s all tickety boo? Didn’t think so. Why do you people need to have at least one sink school on the island? Heres an idea – lets have none! Lets be like the Isle of Mann 98% recycling target, education policy that experts go to see in action.
I only thank god that most of the posts I’ve read here are from the terminally reality impaired. Did one of you actually think somebody got a kid in detention and forced him to post on this website. Really? Yes thats exactly what happened, did you also know the government is hiding evidence of the existence of extra terrestrials? You didn’t?………
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Jdg 90
Why would I look on the website when I went to the same school and we all had the same lunch hour from 12:30 and it worked well.
In my day “lunch” was taken in the middle of the day….not half way through the morning!
It just proves how “soft” education has become in todays world.
Frankly, I am not THAT interested in the daily workings of a school day. I am more concerned about having my taxes raised to pay for greedy teachers to enjoy even more of a cushy lifestyle. But, thanks, I took your advice and researched teachers conditions and was horrified to discover the following guide on the NUT website:-
16. To summarise, under the terms of the STPCD, as indicated above, the contractual working time of teachers is subject to specific limits:
• the number of days on which full time teachers shall be available for work in any school year is 195;
• the number of days on which full time teachers may be required to teach pupils is 190, i.e. 5 days as non-contact;
• teachers cannot be directed to undertake duties on any of the 170 calendar days, 171 in a leap year, not specified as working days by the employer – this includes holidays and weekends; and
• the number of hours within which full time teachers can be directed to undertake teaching or other professional duties is subject to the absolute limit of 1265.
….by my calculations that is almost 6 months without undertaking any duties.
…..1265 hours @ 190 days amounts to under 7 hours per day.
……5 working days are stipulated as “non-contact” which presumably means this is time allowed to prepare the syllabus.
And HOW MUCH are teachers currently getting a YEAR??
You have got it too damn easy……time to join the REAL world and start EARNING your cushy perks!
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Mick 92
What are you on?
I admit your attitude, hypocrisy and total BS spouted on these blogs have drawn nothing but contempt from me.
If you had a valid (and consistent) argument then you may have faired better.
Thank your lucky stars you are a teacher in Jersey and not Greece, for instance, or perhaps Portugal or Spain!
You should be thankful and damn grateful for what you already have!
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For the record. Anon 96. Is not me Anon 95. I thought this site got moderated. I am not a teacher. I am a Nurse, due to retire and have seen this Island that I love collapse under the greed of a minority of super rich individuals. Not all 1 (1k ) most home grown. About the only thing that is these days. This government Oz and Le Suerer have no interest in Jersey people, only the £100 K plus. This recessionary impact we feel is a direct result of their total incompetence and desire to have a master / relationship. Middle Jersey is being squeezed to accomodate Oz’s pals. If they cannot run the economy, as Europe and the uk and OECD have advised, who will. Will the home office impose the removal of zero ten. Yes it will. These two gents cannot see the writing on the wall. In the present climate, we cannot afford to think locally, the globalisation of all countries is under scrutiny, read Obama’s manifesto. Read Putin’s, none will allow this tax evasion to go on. Wake up, this is not the 60’s or 70’s, we must all pay our way and those with the broadest shoulders should bear more of the burden. They cannot be allowed to escape tax every were. The IMF will see to that. So Donald. I hope you are of an age I am, because the world has changed but you are stuck in some parallel universe. I am not some red under the bed. I own my home, my children are grown up, I have a good disposable income. I have worked hard all my life, sometimes three jobs to bring up my sons. Thesuper rich have always creamed excessive profits of my labour, Oz loves this. But we all know what happened with the wizard of OZ.If you don’t , he was exposed as a fake, weak and sad individual. Fairy story. ? Yes Donald you live in one!
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PJG (81) ….I will be honest with you, I had no option but to march with my children. I did try to offer their company to friends but it wasnt available. At no point did it even occur to me that people would think that I had taken them along to boost the numbers – how naive am I?
As for the use of the word “rampant”, I was just quoting Mick. Did have a little giggle to myself though, as you may be surprised at how right the statement is…..but dont worry, we are educating them in the safety of such matters.
Everyone on here, no matter what your views, enjoy the bank holiday weekend.
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Jdg @ 94 – thanks for that I was completely clueless as to what the troll references were all about!
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BS Deluxe
At my school we have 2 lunch times, one at 10:50 till 11:25 and then a 2nd lunch from 1:20 until 2:00.
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BS Deluxe
Thank you for pointing out the working conditions of teachers in the uk. You obviously looked at the NUT UK website. The terms and conditions for teachers in Jersey are no where near what you have so excellently paraphrased. You have successfully highlighted why Jersey has a recriutment issue although the states of jersey would not admit it.
Thank you DS Deluxe.
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Jdg 103
You miss the point.
If they are the conditions in UK and these are the same conditions you want in Jersey then they should by opposed, absolutely, by the taxpaying public.
These conditions are scandalous……paying an annual salary to teachers for doing half a years work….what planet are you on!
To me, this just highlights how greedy you really are!
1265 hours a year’s work for a teacher against a minimum of 1700+ (based on average 35 hr week) for everybody else…….and you still wonder why you are not getting the public support you think you deserve!
Delusional!
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BS Deluxe
I miss no point. My working day starts in school at 7.45am I finish normally at about 4.45 to 5pm five days per week. Now lets do the maths shall we,
9 hour day, as we do work through our lunch break doing duties plus other preperation and marking, five days per week for aproximatly 39 to 40 weeks per year is 1755 hours.
Then add to that the 4 or 5 hours of marking and preperation I do at home per week minimum during term time, and that makes 1950 hours.
Now lets move to the huge holidays that you are so fond of complaining about and the 30 to 40 hours of coursework and exam marking that I do in order to fulfil the paperwork imposed upon us by exam boards. and that gives us a grand total of 1995 hours.
We as teachers have no average week BS Deluxe and I will invite you to work in my shoes for 1 week and then see what life is really like for a teacher and I know after that week you would have far more respect for the teaching profession than you show now.
Many thanks
Jdg
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Jdg
You’d make a great politician (or weaver) with spin like that
I’m sure NOT ALL teachers work through their lunch EVERY day….and I’m sure NOT ALL teachers have to find extra hours to prepare and mark their students work.
Perhaps it’s just the ones who cannot prepare or organise efficiently??
You must have been taught how to prepare a school year efficiently in “teacher school”, surely.
Plenty of others, in the real world, work many hours over and above their contract….some without overtime. There is rarely a complaint because most are grateful to have a job. Some barely take a 2 week annual rest period….let alone several months!
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OMG just read through the whole of this thread…some good points and some bad ones…basically it strikes me that even if Jesus Christ himself came on here people like BS would start slagging off carpenters just to wind him up…pathetic…
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BS, your drive for efficiency is highly commendable; do you work for the States? I’m sure you could put yourself forward as a consultant.
Thinking about it, I can’t believe what an incompetent teacher I’ve been up to now. Just mapped out a few possible ways to save some time next year…
• Set 50% less exam practice: time saved 25 hours
• Reduce help with improving coursework: time saved 80 hours
• Deny students 1-2-1 guidance: time saved 25 hours
• Cut and paste student reports: time saved 15 hours
• Say I’m too busy to organise the school trip: time saved 50 hours
• ‘Wing it’ in the classroom – no preparation necessary!!: time saved 300 hours
Brilliant. Can’t believe I’ve saved nearly 500 hours already AND I’m going to be a better teacher too – whoop, whoop! Thank you BS Deluxe
Think I’ll go and put my feet up now
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tiredteacher 8.
Re: “Say I’m too busy to organise the school trip: time saved 50 hours”
Where are you planning to go? The MOON?
I’m on the side of all workers when it comes to fighting for acquired rights…but hey, get your argument together!
Signed
Ex-teacher who loved teaching but chose the real world…because it offered me more!
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You do have to wonder what ‘BS’ actually stands for…;)
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Dan 110
No flies on you
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tiredteacher
Unfortunately I am not lucky enough to work for the states……..now that would be a cushy job indeed
No, the private sector is my place of work….where if you are not good enough, efficient enough or work hard enough you are replaced by somebody who is…..and rightly so!
Why should the public sector be any different…..especially when it is those in the private sector paying your wages!?
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@ Born Warrior
Just to clarify, my argument was about how ‘greedy’ teachers could save themselves some time. Without taking students away I could recoup the extra 6-7 hours supervision per day required to do so. Add this to all the research, planning and red-tape involved and you soon have your 50 hours. Hope this makes sense
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tiredteacher 113.
AAAAhhh, but you said “organise” and not “organise and supervise”…very different!
I’ll let you off this time, but next time you’ll get the mythical one hundred lines stating:
- I am being punished for exagerating and my punishment will double if I do it again!
P.S. It might be a good idea to change your moniker…all workers are tired, especially manual workers. How about exasperatedteacher?
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BS Deluxe
By the way, what does ‘BS Deluxe’ stand for?
Is it the ‘Blake Shelton Deluxe’ album…we’ve all got a Hillbilly bone!
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No. 92 Mick – I do not recall anyone remarking that anyone would ‘take a hatchet’ to the teaching services’. Are you quite sure you are a teacher who is employed in Jersey and not the UK?
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