Home Affairs Minister Ian Le Marquand.
JERSEY police are overpaid and their automatic salary increase system is ‘terrible’, the Home Affairs Minister admitted yesterday.
Senator Ian Le Marquand told an Education Scrutiny panel that there were many problems in relation to the salaries of civil servants and said that they should not be financially rewarded simply because of length of service.
Police constables in Jersey receive incremental pay rises over 12 years, boosting their salary by 60 per cent – or nearly £20,000.
‘It’s a terrible system,’ Senator Le Marquand said. ‘People should not be paid more because they have been there longer.’
Article posted on 29th June, 2010 - 2.59pm
70 Article Comments
What a surprise as if we didn’t know, a PC here earns more than an inspector in the UKwhere they have a far more difficult job to do one would imagine.And of course don’t forget the goldplated pension at 50 ish with another career waiting in the background most probably at PHQ as a civilian doing a job they have just left doing.
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I understand that their dry cleaning bills are picked up by the taxpayer – even though I can’t claim tax relief for dry cleaning.
It is also the case that the non-uniformed officers such as CID, drugs squad etc, get a ‘clothing allowance’ for office suits etc, all paid for by the taxpayer – even though I can’t claim tax relief for my office suits or work clothes for a dress down day.
The taxpayers also pick up the tab for their dental work and their medical bills. I have to pay for private health insurance for those luxuries.
I don’t earn anywhere near what a police officer earns. Why can’t they pay for their own work clothing, teeth, dry cleaning and private health insurance. They can afford it!
Why should the public have to pay for it?
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I’d like to see Mr Ian LE MARQUAND actually take an INTEREST for once in what the police do. Maybe he should visit the police station and talk to the front line PC’s instead of the over paid police management. Who can argue that the senior police officers are massively over paid for sitting on their back sides all day making up ridiculous policies which put massive constraints on the front line officers. Oh and they talk about saving money and we see the uniformed police walking around in yet another type of uniform. This time a ridiculous bright yellow stab vest. Lets let the front line officers do the job they are paid to do and start asking questions at the top of thr tree.
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This is an area we can almost all agree on.
Thanks Mr Le M for saying what you feel.
Pay cuts in this area would help fill the black hole, I expect we could have less Police in Jersey anyway.
Any review of Firemen and Ambulance crews may also help the economy much more than cutting school milk.
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This is about the most sensible thing that Ian Le Marquand has ever come up with. Police Officers should be rewarded on their efforts and ability and not the amount of time they have served. There are too many so called ‘uniform carriers’, who do as little as possible yet get paid hansomely.
It would be far better if officers were paid for consistently being productive and achieving good results.
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2. Good Grief
For once, I am genuinely shocked if those benefits are correct!
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Perhaps because they are doing a job that most members of the public would not want, with their very unsociable hours and dangerous situations where life is in danger- yes in Jersey too! Also their dry cleaning is NOT paid for by the public. But you are right, they are well paid. In fact they get more money and better pension and free doctors and dentists than Teachers with a degree, who get nothing!!!
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So what are you going to do about it then Mr Senator ?
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hope you read the letter in the j.e.p from a postal management grade the director of this company earns more than the PRIME MINISTER its time the jersey pubic pulled the plug on this company please support the j.c.r.a this is a disgrace
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Marie #7
In my time in the SOJP my uniform was dry cleaned at the expense of the public. The police had an account at Besco. I never once paid for it myself.
I can also confirm that the other benefits alluded to by Good Grief #2 were correct during my service.
I have no idea whether that situation has changed.
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If 95% of the prison population is drug related it would be it is so easy to solve this problem and many others. Just legalize all drugs. It would empty the La Moye Hilton, it would reduce the police bill by 95%, it would get rid of the pushers,and it would certainly rebuild the tourist industry. Philp, it is so ridiculously easy to get rid of this supposed £50,000,000 deficit.
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The Police in Jersey are not over paid when compared to roles in the private sector locally, the cost of housing and the general cost of living. Their pay was evaluated by an independent body some years ago and for the past 10 years they have received below cost of living annual pay increments effectively accepting pay cuts during the boom years while those in the private sector were doing very nicely thank you very much and at the same time our States members voting to award themselves inflation busting pay rises!
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Ex Plod # 10. Lots of things have changed for the worse, especially the pension. It went from 45ths to 60ths in the late 80s early 90s and I am told the wonderful Police Association have now agreed to a further reduction to 80ths. They’d have been better off agreeing to increased contributions.
They should also allow officers to stay beyond 55 years of age, like they do in the U.K.
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Addendum: – I am also told that previous benefits such as free dental and medical care had gone….so what happens when they get injured on duty? Nice to know the hierarchy look after the people at the sharp end.
It would be far better if they cut back on all the ‘bean counters’, statisticians, crime analysts and H.R. people, who swallow up large parts of the police budget.
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BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!!
I am not saying that the present system of salary increases through length of service is right or wrong.
Certainly an experienced Officer is generally of more use than one with limited years in service.
If you change this to a performance based system then how do you work this – By the number of prosecutions instigated?
This is not practical in general policing especially in a small community where the Police need the support of all sections of the Public.
So much of the ‘good policing’ goes unreported and is unseen by the senior officers and the general public.
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I don’t think pay increments per length of service is unique to the police, most places I know of work with this system. I am sure most States Departments also have this system. It is worrying that the Minister is unaware of that. Personally I think the police are paid a fair wage for the job they do. I know of many people doing quite basic 9-5 office jobs who earn more than police officers. As for their dry cleaning paid for I would imagine they can get a bit their clothing a bit more soiled than a guy in his suit in his office, so I guess that is only right.
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UK copy cats again
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The Police do receive a very large wage compared to their colleagues in the UK.
That is because the police in the UK are vastly underpaid.
Fact: In the late eighties the Police and Fire Service were given an option of having a meagre pay rise or choosing the result of an independent body’s survey and going with that result.
The Police went with the Hey survey, the Fire Service did not. The result from the survey was binding, so the Police pay could have even gone down.
The survey declared the Police were entitled to a 30% rise given the job they did which is why, to this day, the Fire Service lag behind.
Unless you’ve done the job, it is hard to envisualise what the police job is actually like. Unsociable hours, high divorce rate (60%+ last I heard), physically demanding and sometimes stressful beyond belief. Many times during a career the officer will be faced with a life changing decision with the so called senior management second guessing their actions on a Monday morning. Any wonder one recruitment office has over 70 cops on the books.
“The Police do acts of great violence in order that you can sleep in your beds.”
Yes, the Police get a clothing allowance and a medical allowance because they get beaten up, spat at, abused and generally enter many premises so disgusting, you wipe your feet on the way out.
Members of the public, you are allowed a tax allowance on your working clothes too, its just the Income Tax dept refuses to acknowledge it.
And lastly, to all the scoffers, hands up anyone who would volunteer to tell two parents that their child won’t be coming home. Ever.
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@Blue Knight and other ex pc’s here.
Is it true that the police still get their dry cleaning paid for by the taxpayer and that they get an allowance for suits and ‘plain clothes’?
If so it’s a disgrace. Who else gets ordinary working clothes paid for and cleaned at taxpayers expense? Particularly when they are earning over £40k per year.
What is the cost to the public?
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Custom officers are overpaid too,and also over staffed. Cut backs on these guys will save some money. Said it before standing around arrivals hall arms folded doing nothing!!!
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O.K. Ian ,you have identified a well known problem and declared it…you say nothing about a solution……?
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Good Grief # 19. The reason cops get a clothing allowance and free cleaning, is due to the fact their clothes often get messed up chasing criminals, or damaged whilst dealing with people involved in public disorder.
I imagine the Fire Service, Ambulance Service, plus various States health professionals get their clothes cleaned too.
Another ex-plod # 15. I hear what you say about performance related pay, however I am sure you will agree that in your time in the job, you will have seen many senior constables who were just dead wood. They did less in eight hours than many keen and highly motivated junior officers did, in two or three hours. Surely there needs to be something to motivate these people…..yes good supervision works as well, but I am told by former colleagues that this virtually non exxistent nowadays.
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Addendum: – It’s a pity States members didn’t get performance related pay…. there would be a lot of money saved.
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Considering his achievements to date, the same argument (i.e. overpaid) could equally apply to him. there would appear to be a culture of “Empire Building” within the States Police in terms of “bigging up” the roles of the Chief Officer and his senior staff. Our front line cops are mostly good value for money once you eliminate the shirkers and jobsworths. The question is, do we need so many layers of senior management to manange a force that, in any large City, would be a district police station? Le Marquand is simply trying to regain some measure of popularity with the general public at the expense of his relationship with and respect of the local Police force.
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Senator Ian Le Marquand complained to an Education Scrutiny panel that the police earn too much…
Am I missing something here? What does he expect Education to do about it?
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Its about time the Police force were shown for the overpaid lot they are. Too many perks and too high a salary. Its a real shame as it gives the other emergency services a bad reputation. The ambulance service get no perks and are on very low pay in comparision. The same also applies to the Fire service the front line staff get paid nothing compared to the Police.
Its about time they looked at a joint emergency services department rather then keeping them seperate. Lets get them all on one pay scheme and sort it all out. The facilities on the sites at present are shocking and out dated so maybe the saving in salaries and benefits can help improve facilities for staff and hopefully provide a better service to the public.
But what will the states elected officials do about it all…. probably nothing as usual!
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How about using the old supply and demand equation ?
Make the deadwood redundant before Jersey has proper compulsory redundancy payments in place. ( as they were when the contracts were signed). Drop the pay and perks for new starts until recruits of the required calibre stop applying for the job.
Hey presto cops at the going rate.
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@another ex plod
I don’t dispute much of your post but I will your assertion that they “get a clothing allowance and a medical allowance because they get beaten up, spat at, abused…” etc
As a front line plod of 15 years I can only recall a handfull of occasions where my uniform required dry cleaning because of those events you recount. I was assaulted in that time but never ‘beaten up’ and I can’t recall many officers who have been.
More often was it that my trousers required cleaning because the pockets had become stained by the yellow wax ‘chalk’ used for marking up road traffic accidents. Nonetheless, I still managed to get my dry cleaning done every month at taxpayers expense.
If an officer has to have his trousers cleaned after every violent incident I might suggest a change of career.
This, in any event, does not excuse the CID suit allowance, or plain clothes allowance. Those chaps hardly ever got their hands dirty; let alone their clothing. The allowance was to buy standard office attire. Like every office worker wears now but at their own expense.
You say the public can claim for working clothes. Section 3.1 Income Tax Return Booklet states:
Clothing
If you have to wear special clothes in your employment – such as uniform or overalls – you may claim the costs to you of cleaning, repairing and replacing them. You cannot claim anything at all for normal everyday clothing.
Now the police uniform is one thing but it is misleading of you to suggest that the public can claim for their suits, shirts, ties and shoes or for other ordinary ‘plain clothes’. They can’t, unless you are saying that the Taxman is misleading the public in the above guidance note.
The police, however, get (unless the situation has changed since I retired) the above attire paid for, and cleaned, by the taxpayer.
As for medical expenses, it is of course right that an injury on duty should be dealt with that way. However, I still had my medical bills paid for when I had standard ailments and injuries that everyone else gets.
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As an Officer from a UK force, I am assuming that the Dry Cleaning situation which everyone seems to be getting upset about is the same as over here.
The Officers normal day to day uniform is washed quite normally at home. The smart uniform (tunics) worn for special events and sometimes Court does need to be dry cleaned and as such the Officer shouldn’t be expected to pay for this.
If a bit of uniform gets very dirty or contaminated with blood/vomit etc (happens quite regularly) then the force should pay for it to be professionally cleaned (or replaced).
Any injury caused whilst on duty should be fully paid for by the force. It’s not all driving around picking on motorists as some people think. The Public don’t normally see the abuse we get, the struggles to handcuff someone who doesn’t want to be, being spat at, getting covered in blood and vomit etc.
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Thank you Blue Knight.
You say “The reason cops get a clothing allowance and free cleaning, is due to the fact their clothes often get messed up chasing criminals, or damaged whilst dealing with people involved in public disorder.”
That may be true of the front line Bobby’s but why do the detectives get a clothing allowance? Do they often get “messed up chasing criminals, or damaged whilst dealing with people involved in public disorder.”
I wouldn’t have thought so. I imagine that for the most part the suspects are sober and sitting in white paper suits by the time they get to grips with them. Why do they get the perks too?
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Andrew (Thank you)
Plod and Ex plod and everyone else
Exactly right. Normal uniform gets cleaned at home by the officers with the normal house hold washing. If its soiled the SOJP DO NOT PAY FOR IT TO BE CLEANED we do it our selves in a seperate wash of course. The only items that get professionally cleaned if soiled are stab vest covers, head gear and fleeces. Obviously the retired officers on here hadn’t been down the back in the last days of service and may not have known the new system. Unlike UK forces we do not get issued dress uniform any more only a few of the force have them these days. Some of us even buy our own equipment from the web if it needs replacing. SHOCK HORROR…..Look at the end of the day love us or hate us, we still have to do a job that others don’t want. We don’t get a clothing allowance we get issued a uniform which we wear every day what ever happens. And if you think getting urine thrown over you or getting covered in blood, getting bitten, spat and generally abused is a good night out come and join. I’m not here to start an argument because thats not what we do. Just wanted to set the facts straight.
PS Can’t comment on CID etc because I don’t know. OH and if you want to find out what we do all day come in and ask…..
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At what point during this report was dry cleaning and clothing allowances mentioned????
Dont the police get issued with a uniform? So why on earth would they get a clothing allowance…think about it…..
And the next time my husband brings his uniform home covered in good knows what, i’ll make sure to send my cleaning bill for wash powder, water, electricity etc into the states.
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Whilst some of the comments appear to be relevant I am afraid that a number appear to have been posted by either people who have long since enjoyed a relationship with the police service or are just disfunctionally against the police.
From a first hand experience let me tell you the truth.
Yes, lots of the benefits you speak of were the stable diet of cops years ago when infact they were actually underpaid – hence corruption etc, pre Hay evaluation cops were paid less than a security guard. How many of your readers, I wonder, can empathise with the many of us who were/are fined on the continent for dubious motoring offences but were/have never issued a receipt?
Bottom line is if you want a corrupt police force then simply underpay them.
Now – moving onto the modern era. Who is to blame, as that seems to be the crux of the matter really. Well let me tell you. It was the States Assembly in the guise of the then Defence Committee. Unlike Margaret Thatcher who would not be bound by the findings of a similar review of the essential services in the UK, our illustrious leaders decided they would be despite the fact that the claim they (essential services) were making, as it turned out, was only a third of what was awarded.
So – is it the poor front line cop, or any other rank for that matter, who is to blame for being paid a decent salary or the person who offered it to them?
I ask only, if someone offered you 40% more for doing the same job would you turn it down – no I didn’t think so.
As for the fringe benefits – whilst some still exist I think you will find that most of the rank and file do not bother claiming them – others have possibly quite rightly been eroded over the years such as medical/dental/pensions/clothing etc etc.
One must never forget that in addition to all the comments that relate to what the cops have to put up with the one that most people forget is that in an Island community you are ALWAYS a cop – there is no respite 24/7 – everywhere you go you are known and are under the microscope – everyone wants a professional opinion and quite often your neighbours knock on your door believing that you can do them a ‘favour’ – to the detractors I would refer to the old proverb “if you can walk in another man’s shoes for a mile without moaning then you have the right to moan about him”.
And, finally, can anyone tell of any job in Jersey that is not better paid thena the equivalent in the UK – it’s all relative.
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Good Grief # 30. I joined the police in Jersey in 1968 and did 33 years in policing. I served both in uniform and C.I.D. and can tell you that when in plain clothes, I sometimes became involved in rough and tumbles, whilst assisting my uniformed colleagues. Jackets, trousers and shirts became ripped and so I feel it is only right C.I.D. officers’ clothing should be paid for.
Whilst I agree with changes to the notion of performance related pay instead of payments based on length of service, I’d better explain that I don’t feel officers are over paid.
As has been mentioned elsewhere, the pay scales were determined in the late 1980s, following a lengthy examination of the role of the police,including the level of technical knowledge, responsibilites, unsocial hours, potential danger etc.
To reiterate, whilst I do support the idea of performance related pay, I do not support the idea of reducing the salaries of ordinary officers.
If Mr.Le Marquand wants to reduce the police budget, he would be better off reducing the number of highly paid senior police officers and senior civilian managers. You wouldn’t notice their absence to front line policing.
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I was a police officer for over nine years in the 1990s and would like to correct one or two inaccuracies. Before I do, I have no loyalty to the police, or its management, but some of what is said on here is just plain wrong.
Police officers are not overpaid. You are required to undergo two years intensive training with detailed knowledge of complex laws, prosecution processes, investigation powers and the like. Whilst not the same as being a lawyer, the legal knowledge is far more than a simple working knowledge. The role of a police officer is so diverse and unpredictable that you can be dealing with simple traffic matters one minute and violent offenders or suspicious deaths the next. As for comparisons with UK forces, a PC on the beat inJersey deals with a far wider range of incidents than their UK counterparts.
Pay is an economic cost of the service. It is what the market is suggesting is appropriate. Would you really want to have pay and conditions which attracted only a mediocre (or lower) standard of applicant? I doubt it. It is the normal Jersey way, we all want the best, and we moan when we don’t get it, but we aren’t prepared to pay for it. I can recall our staffing levels were often so low on nights (about 40% of what was mimimum manning levels) that there were only three or four of us on duty outside the station. Try working with the potential for things to kick off knowing that if you called for help there may not be enough of it.
The conditions referred to (medical and dental) were withdrawn to new recruits in about 1999. The pension is now in line with the 1/80 for each year’s contribution. These have been changed over the years back towards the employer’s favour. I recall that in the late 60’s/early 70’s medical care extended to an officer’s family and pension contributions were 1/45 for each year.
Clothing is also important. Is anyone seriously suggesting that officers be required to pay for their own uniform? I doubt it. Officers can, and frequently are, moved at will between uniform and non-uniform. Why should they be treated differently to uniformed colleagues when they have no choice where they are deployed to. They are still required to attend similar incidents (or at least were in my day) to uniform – violent incidents, crime scenes, post mortems, assault victims etc. Blood stained clothing has to be destroyed now. Equally, as a uniformed service, they are required to present in a smart and uniform manner. It was (and probably still is) a discplinary offence to not be appropriately and smartly dressed. Keeping that appearance of almost military standard dress promotes pride in the service and job.
This is not a simple case of people getting something for nothing. Neither is it a case of fat pensions and cushy civil service jobs. Employees in the civil service are not allowed to claim both a full salary and a full pension at the same time, so it is not correct to assume they do.
Just remember, the average police officer survices 7 years after they retire, which, even if they go at 55, is not a fair knock, is it?
And, like a former colleague said earlier, how many of you who are complaining would like to turn up tell someone their child isn’t coming home? I have done that on more than one occasion and it is the hardest and most harrowing thing I have ever had to do. No amount of money or free doctor’s care can reward that. And for those who think that sleepy old Jersey is a walk in the park, don’t kid yourself. There are more unsavoury and unsightly goings on our police force has to deal with that don’t make the news than you think. Sleepless nights, high mortality rates, suicides, ill health and domestic problems are the result of this. I have lost count of the number of funerals of former colleagues I have attended. This job is unforgiving on people. Do not underestimate the legacy that it leaves behind.
Incremental pay follws a process of training and is certainly not an automatic right. It has to be earned and is designed to demonstrate that training, experience and loyalty are important aspects of policing.
I took a significant pay cut when I left and I know others have too. This job takes its toll. Rewarding the people who do what many of us would not even consider doing is only right and proper. At times, it is the best job in the world. But there are other times when you see right into the bowels of hell. Ten years on, i still have images of dead bodies, violent crime scenes, post mortems and child molestors in my head.
As for the Minister, he should hang his head in shame. You lead by respect and he has shown his utter contempt and arrogance when it comes to what his officers do.
There are plenty of things wrong with the Police as an organisation, but we pay them what we pay them. An independent body set their salary and valued it at what it thought was appropriate. It is the cost of attracting the right people to do an incredibly challenging and difficult job. I have had many different jobs and that was, by far, the most demanding.
If you have read this far, thank you.
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Half Blues # 35. Quod erat Demonstrandum – very well put. I totally agree that Ian Le Marquand should hang his head in shame – there is a big difference between a manager and a leader and I.L.M. does not fall in the latter category.
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How does cutting the Police pay fit in with the proposal of now having TWO superintendents and FOUR Chief Inspectors (from one and two).
Chiefs and Indians
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Bewildered #33 “..either people who have long since enjoyed a relationship with the police service or are just disfunctionally against the police.”
It’s unfortunate that you can only see so far as to pigeon hole folks as either one or the other.
It is entirely feasable, is it not, that some members of the public, who pay their wages, have legitimate concerns over the pay/conditions/benefits or perks of those who they pay to serve them, and so ask questions to find out the truth.
People who critisise the police are not all necessarily ‘disfunctional’ and I find your remark offensive. However, arguably a police officer who only sees things in black or white, on the other hand, might be regarded as disfunctional.
Is it also not the case that serving officers are not permitted to express their professional views in the media without the Chief Officer’s authority?
I often see them on here doing just that. Naughty naughty…
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I wouldnt say they were overpaid just under educated. You should have to have a couple of A levels to join at present you need nothing.
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Ex-Plod #38. Somewhere else on a J.E.P. discussion board I read about Parkinson’s Law (Nothing to do with David Parkinson) but about the workings of senior management….Goggle it and you’ll see why they are creating more senior managers. It speaks volumes if Ian Le Marquand allows an increase in the hierarchy whilst whinging about police pay.
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Andy # 39. What a churlish remark. Many officers have ‘A’ levels and several have degrees.
Grumpy Beggar # 38. Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights protects the right to freedom of expression – are you saying that police officers should be denied this right? Is that a symptom indicative of dysfunctionality?
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Thay may not need official qualifications to get in but the exam is certainly not easy. I have seen it and the majority of the population would fail by a long way!
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# Andy
Dear me – how silly. I knew two graduates who joined up with me in the UK and were thankfully promoted quickly……to get them out of the way… ‘upstairs’! They had brains, yes…. but not one iota of common sense!!
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It was many years ago when the decision to agree that the independent Hay Evaluation on Police pay would be binding on both parties was made by the Defence Committee of the day. Subsequently, the binding aspect to Hay was agreed by the Police Association BEFORE the evaluation was undertaken by Hay.
It was then, and still is, my firm belief that the then Defence Committee wanted a binding agreement only because it was supremely and smugly confident that the evaluation would lead to a reduction in pay across all ranks of the Force. That Committee was wrong.
Hay found that not only was the Force being underpaid, it was also generally being undervalued and under resourced. Hence, the Force is where it is today on pay, and everyone who believes it is being overpaid or over incremented is wrong.
As an aside, comments have been posted claiming that Officers and their dependents receive the “perk” of free medical and dental care. This is absolutely not the case, and hasn’t been since I joined in the early 1960’s. The “and his dependants” perk had already been removed by then. My own personal free health care package was still in place however.
But the tax man is nothing if not equipped with a very sensitive nose. As soon as he became aware of this so called perk, he very quickly dug up and moved the “Terms of Service” goalposts, thereby ensuring that every and any medical or dental treatment I received was henceforth taxed to the hilt.
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Let me just point out what the public sector have to compete with.
In the JEP tonight the average salaries and bonuses were published
Banker £53,000 + £6,200 bonus
Fund Manager £68,000 + £13,600 bonus
Trust and Company £55,000 + £3,900 bonus
Legal £51,000 + £1,800 bonus
Accountancy £42,000 + £1,300.
This does not include the private health care they get, Christmas parties etc and some even get their children’s private School fees paid for.
I am not a Police Officer but I do work in the emergency services.
All the people in the emergency services are grossly underpaid in comparison. We save lives finance makes rich people richer. What is more important!!! (True its not required but most do have at least A levels, and years of training)
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Still no indication what Ian Le Marquand intends doing about it….
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Everyone of us expects the best service from our public servants. Unfortunately, the reality is, is that you get what you pay for. Good quality service comes at a cost. Take nothing away from the fact that there are some shirkers in the police (just as, I suspect there are anywhere else in the private sector), but officers in Jersey perform excellently against those from the UK. Jersey Recruits were consistently outperforming their UK counterparts at Training College, as they continue to do as training progresses.
Incremental pay exists in many walks of life and is a fair reward for loyalty and a recognition of experience and service. It exisits in the Civil Service to “band” pay grades and is awarded at the manager’s discretion up to three times.
Please also bear in mind that police – and some other unidormed services – receive a 24hr rotating shift allowance. I know the shifts have changed since I left, but I spent nearly ten years working shifts of 7 days on with two days off. Not quite Monday to Friday 9-5, is it. Add to that two quick changeovers with less than eight hours between shifts, which effectively means about five hours sleep, and I hope you can begin to understand some of the reasons for the pay and conditions.
The flip side is that you are pretty much always on call and always on duty should the need arise. As a contributor added, these medical benefits, where they still exist, are taxable benefits. How many self employed people or other middle managers in the private sector are taxed on all their pecuniary benefits?
Uniform is uniform, paid for and provided by the employer. Simple as that. Clothing for non-uniformed officers is provided by an allowance so they are not disadvantaged from working in non-uniformed roles.
Oh, and for those who rightly argue that they have a right to complain as they “pay your wages”, so too the rest of us who buy your products or hire your services. We too have a right to comment and complain about perks and benefits in the private sector.
In times of full employment, it is mighty difficult to both attract and retain good staff. So what if they are well paid. I would much prefer that to our important public service workers being underpaid to such an extent that the posts cannot be filled by suitably qualified staff.
Rant over.
I wuld challenge Mr Le Marquand to address the next Police Association (that’s their representative body – not a trade union as it is illegal for Police Officers to belong to one) AGM and apologise. Not only would that take some bottle, but it might go some way to repairing some of the imense daage he will have done to the relationship that needs to exist between police and pulic. I recall Dep. Wavell doing something very similar. He addressed the AGM. Over to you Mr Le Marquand.
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A sleepy backwater? I think not. In case it escaped anybody’s attention recently, a very high profile, dangerous, international criminal, dealt with by the Jersey Boys and Girls in blue and given a lengthy prison sentence. As for recruiting only those with A level’s etc. This does not equate to life skills and experience and never will. More to the point, why was a Home Affairs Minister banging on about Police Pay and conditions to an Education Committee Scrutiny Panel? Go figure. All public sector workers are higher paid in Jersey than their counterparts in the UK, teacher’s, prison officer’s, firefighter’s nurses and all. Not rocket science, just reflects the excessive cost of living and housing in an Island being held ransom by external provider’s etc. Address this issue first then legitimately reduce wage bills. To the detractor’s, go and fight yob’s on The Weighbridge, attend car crashes, search dead bodies, work shifts which have been proven to reduce your life span. There are many other facet’s of that lifestyle which will never be appreciated.
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I am a tradesman and my mate who is a local policeman have known each other for years. In the 80’s he earnt less per hour than me. Come the late 80’s he got something like a 30% rise after an evaluation and certainly earnt a few quid more than me an hour. Some 20 years later I am earning probably £5 an hour more than him. So surely his wage must have eroded severely over this time because I have only kept up with inflation myself.
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Senator Le Marquand said. ‘People should not be paid more because they have been there longer.’
I don’t know why or how the Police and other equally important sectors of the public work force have bizarrely been singled out by ILM but news for you Senator, as one of our personally declared intelligensia, people, in almost every walk of life, get paid more because they have been there longer. It is the just reward for the experience they possess, often learnt at their own expense/time, that they then cascade to the newer members of their organisations and which allows them to negate the threat (litigation) to the employer.
I would have thought that a man who was ‘articled’ in Law and came from a similar post (Greffe) would have understood that! Perhaps he turned down his increments!
I truly believe that the Police, be it the States or Honorary, ought to check to see if this man has a gun and if he has then it should be confiscated before he shoots both his feet off.
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Blue Knight. I am not saying that the police should be denied the right to self expression. I personally think that they should have it. There are clearly other Human Rights denied to police officer’s as Half Blues said “not a trade union as it is illegal for Police Officers to belong to one”
I was simply repeating what I had been told by a police officer. Namely that they are not permitted to publicy comment on professional matters without authorisation. Have I been misinformed in this respect?
As for academic qualifications I think you are missing the point. Clearly there are officers who will be educated to degree standard. However, what Andy was saying was that having A levels is not a pre-requisite for entry. A person can join without a single qualification as long as he passes the tests and is considered suitable.
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It is not just the police but I strongly believe that the whole States workforce is currently being underpaid by about 20% of what they should be compared to the private sector. It is alright for Le Marquand to gripe about it but bear in mind he was an advocate and a magistrate and just look at their ridiculous salaries. pot and kettle come to mind.
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Let’s get some of this into perspective, Jersey Police are not the only States department that have incremental rises by service, civil servants do and have increments within their grades on an annual basis so lets not single the Police out in that respect.
Certainly until recently most Jersey Policemen and women were considerably better trained than their UK counterparts mainly in the various specialist roles, search team, firearms, child protection, etc: This simply arose because in the UK they can immediately call for back-up and additional resources from neighbouring police forces here they do not have that luxury except in high profile cases and we have seen that go horribly wrong as well.
As to cleaning their clothes, yes they do get cleaning chits as necessary, when is the last time any of you in the public sector had a client vomit or urinate over you in the course of your work? When was the last time you had to attend a deceased person’s home where they had lain unattended and unnoticed for weeks at a time and the smell was so vile and strong that it permeated your clothes through to your skin? Contaminated blood and human faeces yes, they are also regularly part of the job! Additionally, just because they are wearing a suit as opposed to a blue uniform are not immune from any of the above hazards.
Don’t pick on the cops they are a far too easy target, mainly because they do not have the rights of other pay groups to fight back or lawfully make comment to the media without consent. In stead try rifting out some of the so called specialist civil servants brought into the Island on high grades 14 plus for quite specific purposes which then cease, but they are still here sitting in Cyril Le Marquand House counting paper clips or some other non existent job.
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Kevin #50
I think you misunderstand.
ILM says “People should not be paid more because they have been there longer”
What he means is pay increments should be performance based and not just on how long you sit at a desk not understanding how the world is passing you by.
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Is that all a police officer gets paid. Disgraceful when you consider prisoners at La Moye cost about £55000 per year to keep, plus they get free medical and dental care whilst in there. Talk about priorities all wrong.
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Everyone who says the Police are overpaid, I hope that when you have a problem you don’t pick up the phone and expect them to sort it for you. The Police locally have a very difficult job, I was recently in A&E when I saw a young lady who had been unfortunate enough to injure herself. While sitting waiting like the rest of us (dressed in “normal” clothing” she was shouted and sworn at as someone had recognised her as being an officer. She sat there quietly without saying a word while this person continued their abuse, I’d imagine that this was not the first time this had happened. We as members of the public expect the police to attend our every problem, you will say that they are overpaid etc however you will be the first to run to them when something goes wrong.
These officers deal with everything we throw at them, traffic accidents, deaths, fights, accidents, missing people, domestics, parking disputes …… They are never off duty as the Island is so small they are always recognised and always on call. They work long hours with limited breaks, they do a physically and emotionally hard job and then have to try to live a normal life while being constantly under the spotlight.
I for one wouldn’t want to do their job and I would say to those that think they are overpaid, if the job is that easy and the money that good why don’t you join? Maybe Mr Le Marquand could go and spend a set of shifts with the front line officers and see what it is they do, I’m sure they work a lot harder for their money than he does for his which I believe is about the same, oh except he gets his free parking, blackberry etc.
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#56 Taxpayer, abusing a police officer is an offense. Obviously she sat and took it, fair play to her I’d have punched them, but it would have been better for society if she had contacted her colleagues and had that person removed, only that way will they learn! Also, could it not be covered by breach of the peace, especially in an Accident and Emergency ward?
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Terry’s message at # 53 tell it as it is. Ian Le Marquand should all read this:-
I have been where you fear to be
I have seen what you fear to see
I have done what you fear to do
All these things I have done for you.
I am the man you lean upon
The man you cast your scorn upon
The man you bring your troubles to
All these men I’ve been to you.
The man you ask to stand apart
The man you feel should have no heart
The man you call the man in blue
But I am just a man, just like you.
And through the years I’ve come to see
That I am not what you ask of me
So take this badge and take this gun
Will you take it? Will anyone?
And when you watch a person die
And hear a battered child cry
Then do you think that you can be
All of these things you ask of me?
The police should not get less pay, but I still maintain that they shouldn’t be awarded increments solely on the basis of length of service. They need to proove they’ve still got what it takes to be a good cop who achieves good results.
As for Ian Le Marquand; well he wouldn’t inspire me if I were still one of Jersey’s finest.
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And how much do you earn Mr Le Marquand??? A damn sight more than you’re worth I bet!
I’m saddened to hear someone in your position abusing the police yet again when you probably have no connection with reality at all.
I’m sure your family are financially secure, so you don;t have to worry about paying the childminder that’s looked after your kids while you worked a night shift. In fact I bet you’ve never worked past 4pm in your life without running up expenses at a cost to the tax payers.
I’m sure your wife doesn’t have to worry about whether you will be coming home in one piece after a high speed car chase, or disarming a knife wielding maniac (yes it happens in Jersey). I’m sure you don;t have to worry about getting every T crossed and every I dotted else the consequences to your career or someone life could be ruined.
I’m just too angry to write anymore…
Are you worth your wage Mr Le Marquand…… so far I don’t so
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PJG NO. 54
No Sir, I did not understand at all. Of course there are those who, with the best respect in the world, will never progress.
However, thankfully, and this does not apply to the police in isolation, most people want to do their best and that includes not only for themself but more frequently for the people they serve.
ILM made no reference to to Performance Related Pay (PRP) as per the local media – of course he may have said something entirely differently to the Scrutiny Panel but we have heard no rebuttal to that effect – but it remains a factor not just in public sector but also in the private sector.
What he failed to mention is that it is extemely easier and more cost effetive to get rid of a public employee than most of you would believe. The fact that it doesn’t happen cannot be laid at the feet of the shop floor but rests entirely with ‘management’ which includes, for those who don’t know, the overly intrusive involement of the local politicans – Oops sorry have I let the cat out of the bag?
By the way for your benefit an increment can only be approved by the head of department or as set out in law – irrespective of capabilty or time served.
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Terry 53 excellent the best comments i’ve heard.Do I know you??
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As Mr Hopkins pointed out so well in his letter tonight, Police Officers are not entitled to breaks. Eight hour shifts with meal breaks which could, and regularly were, interupted to deal with incidnts, however urgent. Police officers could be rostered to the enquiry desk with a civillian colleague who had a contractual right (and rightly so, in my humble opinion) to have their uninterupted meal break.
I remember one incident where I had to follow and contained an armed suspect, as an unarmed officer, in an incident which lasted from about 3.40pm until 11pm. As soon as I had sat down to eat my “Lunch” I was called in to take part in a debrief and de-stress session. No complaints, it is part of the job and most get on with it.
One other thing that is obvious on here. It seems that of all the comments providing detailed support are coming from former officers. I say that because comments from current officers are conspicuous by their absence. Not because serving officers are not bothered by this, believe me they are – as evidenced by tonight’s letter – but because they are bound by a strictly enforced disciplinary code which prohibits them from making political comments. It is also worth noting that this code also enables the chief officer to fine oficers for various offences and reduce their rank. How many of those people expressing disquiet about the perks have that sort of punishment meted out when they make errors of judgement or other minor slip ups?
I have neither an axe to grind with the police nor do I offer unquestionable loyalty, but some of the earlier comments bore little resemblence to the truth.
Some final thoughts for you; in ten years I saw death on an almost monthly basis, some routine, others horrific beyond imagination; I saw abuse of our most vulnerable members of society; I witnessed and took part in many post mortem examinations; I helped prosecute some of the most serious crimes known; I saw families torn apart by years of domestic violence; I dealt with the consequences of alcohol and drug abuse on an almost daily basis; and, in doing so, I helped keep all that away from most of your doors.
Thankfully, for me at least, I no longer have to put my family through the pain and anguish that such experiences bring. I didn’t do it for the money, the perks or the benefits; I did it because for all the nasty things I dealt with, I was immensly proud to have made a difference. Whatever we think of how we should reward the police, I have to say that, unless you have done it, I do not think you can ever understand what it involves.
I hope that I have shed a bit of light on the subject so that you can appreciate how things really are for them. Keep up the good work.
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Years ago the police were well paid, they received a gold plated pension at 50 they got free dental and medical treatment. All this was obviously approved by the States of the day. The reward for this would have been having people that would choose the career and stay their. Nowadays with none of this I would imagine you have people join for a couple of years and then move on to a better paid job. This cannot be good for the police as you end up with very few experienced officers and I would imagine the cost of training a police officer is huge. Therefore they should be paid a high wage in order to retain them and to ensure the right calibre people are joining. I know guys in the private sector who would make great police officers, but as they openly admit they could not afford the pay drop if they joined.
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Thank you no.59, 62 and 63. Finally some truths. It is also a very hard life for children of officers. Sometimes the parent is just not there all weekend due to some shifts. During the week they may be off but the children at school. I have also heard that Mr Le Marquand has employed someone to keep his desk tidy! This is true because I know the person. She admits most of the time she is bored and has nothing to do. Mr Le Marquand has really let the police down this time!
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If as a previous poster suggests that the police are the only states group that work 40 hrs per week and the others are working 35hrs per week then that equates to the police working in a year 250 extra hours or 32 days more than anyone else plus they are not automatically entitled to a meal break it sounds like they are light years behind any other states group. Surerly they must have a union or representatives that can fight their corner to make it an even playing field.
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Judging by the comments this remark has seriously backfired on Le Marquand. Surely the only way forward for the police is to have an independant review of their pay and conditions and let an outside body decide their worth.
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66 Ken ,,,Give it a rest mate ,,,we are drowning in reports and independent inquiries…what the hell do we pay people for if all they end up doing is getting another expert in….wait a min …I know ..totally disband the civil service..we have after all …all the info we need from the pro’s …hey ho Zillions saved…well done Ken …you’ve saved the situation.
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It is refreshing to see the large number of positive comments towards the Islands Police Service and I hope the Ian Le Marquand realises that he has made a bit of an almighty gaff with his comments to the scrutiny panel. As a spouse of a serving Police Officer with over 20 years service , I fully understand the issues/stresses surrounding the role that they are required to perform and I was saddened to hear the comments made by the Minister, their governmental representative, who for whatever reason, appears to have singled out the Service for a public bashing. In doing so he made no reference to the Islands other emergency services and their pay structure, on which I am unable to comment , as I do not know if they too have a time served pay scale.
There are many skills/qualifications that the men and women undertake, often involving going off Island for extensive periods away from family, for which the they receive no increase in pay for obtaining the qualification, all to ensure that the Island has an up to date, current and fit for purpose Service.
The salaries are fair, I believe and yes if you are 19 and joining you will see a rapid increase in pay, but if you are 40 and seeking a career change, with mortgage and family etc to support, then I suggest a pay cut could be on the cards, certainly in the short term, hence the need for the pay rises , unless you want a service of no life experienced Officers! Time served pay is nothing new in the States and as mentioned the Officers get nothing for obtaining additional qualifications.
All is not great within the SJP at the moment, but that is a separate matter. There are a few lazy, so called sick and lame Officers who know who they are, who just increase the workload on their already hard pressed, so called friends and colleagues. These Officers should have their services terminated forthwith. These certainly are overpaid and Senior management should address this.
The Islands emergency services all do a tremendous job and at times their families feel the brunt of it.
I would be very interested to see what would happen if all the Officers who were firearms trained(who receive no extra pay), decided to withdraw from the unit, leaving the Island without an armed response capability. Remember the recent Cumbria massacre!!!!
Ian Le Marquand now has the chance to show what kind of Politician he is ,by trying to turn this around and publicly say “Sorry” to the Service that he has attacked . There are a host of other words that I could use to describe this man, but I will just leave it as being disappointed.
Regards
[Ex Black rat]
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Bus Driver # 68. Could we call the Home Affairs Supremo a ‘Wet lettuce’?
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“Dear me – how silly. I knew two graduates who joined up with me in the UK and were thankfully promoted quickly……to get them out of the way… ‘upstairs’! They had brains, yes…. but not one iota of common sense!!”
LOL Ex PC that statement says it all!
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