David Warcup, who is leaving at the end of the year, is the subject of the Saturday Interview in today's JEP
JERSEY’s police officers should have Taser guns when confronted by armed and dangerous criminals, says the acting police chief.
David Warcup said that officers currently faced the stark life or death choice of using real guns to disarm someone running at them with a knife or other lethal weapon.
Mr Warcup said that Tasers – used in the efforts to disarm gunman Raoul Moat in the UK last month – would provide a safer alternative.
• Read the story and a full interview with Mr Warcup, who is retiring at the end of the year, in Saturday’s Jersey Evening Post.
Article posted on 24th July, 2010 - 2.59pm
140 Article Comments
Has life in Jersey become so dangerous that the States police feel that they require these stun guns?
I don’t recall seeing reported events in the JEP of instances of this kind of threatening behaviour to warrant this.
Something is wrong, somewhere …
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Oh yes ! Police officers are always getting killed here ! Jersey people are a terrible bunch of hooligans… So many riots and protests happen here everyday… Give them all armoured tanks as well…They are so brave risking their lives on a daily basis..They all deserve medals !
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No you damn well don’t, this is Jersey, not Hackney.
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He needs to read the two Braidwood Inquiry reports from Canada.
You must clearly understand that tasers can sometimes, almost randomly, kill people. Even healthy adults. But the manufacturer denies this risk, except hidden in the fine print of the volunteer exposure form.
And then the police use tasers about one hundred times as often as they ever used bullets.
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Get real,,,I have served in the police force all over the UK.THIS IS JERSEY CI.NOT NEW JERSEY USA.all i ever read now in the JEP,is this kind of rubbish,TASERS on jersey ci,,,RUBBISH.apart from a very few drunks,and idiots,i still walk around this very beautiful island without fear,,,,i can’t say they same for certain parts of England,,,Can you please tell me,how often are the police confronted with an armed and dangerous criminal,,,,,?????? what will it be next,,,,Arm The HONORARY,,,,
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The sooner he’s gone the better, wants to leave his mark with taser guns,no thanks Mr Warcup seems your ideas are needed back in UK.Maybe he needs them to get those nasty people that have said not too nice things about him.
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I think the (majority of) police in Jersey are rude, aggressive and power-hungry enough without the need for tasers.
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No they do not need a Tazer – I am stunned at this comment!!!!!
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This is absolutely disgusting…the U.K. cops had Raoul Moat lying on the floor with a shotgun pressed under his chin,they Tazered him with an unauthorised weapon putting a huge shock through his body..the ONLY result possible was that it would precipitate the shooting of himself no other outcome could have come from it…we must resist any Police state moves like this..if it disturbs you like it disturbs me contact your Senator /Deputy and make it known..before some hapless motorist that remonstrates with an over eager young cop has to be electrocuted…think it can’t happen…? Think on.
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Does the general public trust members of the police force to use these devices in a responsible manner is a question that needs to be asked.
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WHAT??!! Stun guns are needed?? What rubbish! Coppers over here are rarely even shouted at let alone attacked especially with deadly weapons!
And anyway the use of tazers is supposed to protect the public inc those threatening the police as well as protecting the coppers themselves and as there is suggestions that the use of tazers on Raoul Moat caused him to pull the trigger it is questionable that the use of tazers in this situation was a wise use of this non-lethal weapon.
So exactly how many life-threatening assualts on the police were there last year in Jersey … the crime centre of the world??
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Let’s start by looking at whether a ‘threat’ really exists or not, rather than jumping straight for the Tasers…
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Warcup’s legacy for Jersey, the stun gun.
Sums up his tenure rather nicely.
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The debate has started with the expected lack of any cogent arguement as to why Tasars should not be available to the police in Jersey.
In many parts of the U.K. police officers routinely carry Tasars. These are in areas that are a lot quieter than Hackeny, in very rural areas of England and Wales, that are similar to Jersey.
So far as I can see, David Warcup hasn’t suggested that all of his officers carry Tasars 24/7. I believe he only wants them to be available for his specialist firearms team to use as a non lethal option in the ‘continuum of force’ stipulated in their policy on dealing with armed offenders. They have to respect a person’s right to life, in accordance with Article 2 of the Human Rights (jersey) Law 2000.
It is surely preferable to disable an offender rather than shoot him of her – remember there are more firearms per head of population in Jersey, than in the U.K. Also hand guns and semi automatic weapons may be legally possessed in Jersey, but not in U.K. The idea that firearms incidents in the Island might occur can not be easily dismissed.
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is this a back door way of introducing a weapon that would in practise have multiple uses.
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Where is the evidence to indicate that police officers have been threatened in such a manner as to require this kind of response in the last few years? If none there would appear to be no justification whatsoever – it’s just an additional unnecesary cost to policing.
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I believe that the proper use of stun guns in England and Wales is being looked into following the Moat affair. A second incident has seen an innocent motorist targeted in the groin by a tasar gun for, wait for it, a suspected insurance infraction. That second incident will also form the basis of an enquiry.
Hardly a good time to call for a rolling out of the use of these weapons.
Let us be convinced, assured and satisfied that the police can be trusted to use the weapons lawfully and reasonably before we allow them here.
Who is the “we” to whom Mr Warcup refers? It cannot include himself because he has resigned from that position so on whose behalf and authority does he purport to speak?
These weapons are increasingly used as a short cut and a substitute for poor police methods.
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Good god, get real, just up the ante a little with stun guns – next they’ll want ‘real’ guns because people have gone one further again.
This is Jersey, not some city where crime is rife.
Police it properly and those that are violent, let the full weight of the law come down on them without this slap on the wrist culture – then that will be the biggest deterrent!
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Ex London Policeman # 5. I too have served in the police in the U.K. I have also served with the Royal Military Police in Germany and Ulster. I no longer live in Jersey, but I well recall that firearms were more easily available in the Island, than elsewhere in the British Isles. I believe this is still the case. Maybe Mr. Warcup wants Tasars to have a less lethal option than firearms to deal with armed suspects; bear in mind the requirements of Article 2 of the Human Rights (Jersey) Law 2000. Armed suspects have a right to life and the cops have to do all they can to deal with such offenders, without shooting them. The Island shouldn’t dismiss the idea of having Tasars.
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The Police always want more vicious weapons.
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17 CHRIS P BACON.
I Agree with what you have stated.
I am also an ex serviceman.
they main point that i have stated is.
Can you please inform me,and everyone else.The last time,if ever,An incident of this nature Occurred on the island
IE;AN ARMED AND DANGEROUS CRIMINAL ATTACK,AGAINST THE POLICE/PUBLIC.
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When we have all the Police governing facilities in Jersey that they have in the UK you can get your toys guys.
An Independent Police Complaints Authority is very badly needed in Jersey before this weapon is allowed to be used.
Pepper Spray, Truncheon, Handcuffs, and a Stab Jacket. Our Police are getting more equipped each passing year I see no corresponding increase in violence against them to justify this.
I would would not like any drunk teenagers tasered in my name. I fear if the Police are equipped with this device they will use it at some incident weather it is justified or not.
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Ex London Policeman # 19. As I said before I no longer live in Jersey, however I can recall armed sieges in the Island when I worked there. Also I recall in the last few years, reading in the J.E.P. about an incident in St. Helier where the firearms team we called out.
http://www.thisisjersey.com/2009/07/22/armed-siege-in-st-helier/ – Jersey
To reiterate, there are many more firearms available in Jersey, per head of population, than in the U.K. Therefore there is a high potential for a firearms incident to occur.
Having Tasars would give the firearms team a non lethal option – maybe bean bags fired from a shot gun would be another idea. (Rather like the old Federal Riot Gun firing rubber bullets / batton rounds in Ulster).
Nowadays I regularly work with the police in a very rural area in the U.K. The cops I work with are routinely armed with Tasars. I can’t recall the last time there was a firearms incident in this county.
Also, you will recall in the armed services we used to wear N.B.C. suits, to parctice for nuclear chemical and biological warfare ; when was the last time you were on a base that was hit by a nuclear, chemical or biological weapon? Having the kit doesn’t mean you are going to use it, it’s just there in the event of an emergency.
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Have they not just announced that Recorded crime is down 23% in five years?? If so why the need for Stun Guns now???????????
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Obviously the police can’t deal with drunken teenagers without a weapon.
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‘used in the efforts to disarm gunman Raoul Moat’
Sorry, used by Northumbria police in a failed attempt to disarm gunman Raoul Moat. What David Warcup failed to report is that, per capita, that the Taser is four times more likely to be used in Northumbria than London!
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Andy – “The Police always want more vicious weapons”
Probably the most rediculous comment I have ever, ever read. congratulations
Stunned – “Have they not just announced that Recorded crime is down 23% in five years? If so why the need for Stun Guns now?”
More fair a comment but I dont believe they announced what kind of crime had fallen. Fraud could have gone down dramatically while violent crime remained the same?
I was once at a house party here in Jersey. There was an argument/fight, the police came. During the fight a 27 yr old man grabbed a butchers knife and was swinging it around out on the estate we were on. When the police came he got away and was caught the next morning. If the cops had a taser they could have put him down right then rather than let an armed, drunk and dangerous man run away from them with a BIG knife because they had no way of protecting themselves.
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I think the point here is that if there is someone with a knife or similar, the only option the police have is an armed response, Having a stun gun however will be a more humane way to deal with the little sh*ts!
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Chris P. Bacon
Yes, you’re right, even not so long ago there was an armed seige, however, the weapons in question turned out to be eggs thrown across Seale Street to the complainants windows!
So Tasers it is!
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I have seen tasers for sale in France, you probably don’t need a licene there. Why doesn’t someone from the Police go an buy some there if they want some?
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The trouble with this is the police say we need protection and who can argue against that.
But these weapons no longer become used as a last resort (although that’s the argument used to justify having them) they become a tool deployed as a way of control and intimidation.
We had the same argument with CS gas, and then we saw a police office spay this in the face of a teenage on his mobile phone whilst he had his back to the officer (where was the threat there).
Then in the UK a motorist was shot with a taser with the officer claiming he felt threatened (an argument used to justify all uses of tasers).
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The question is… how much will it cost Jersey to train all officers to use safely teh taser guns? a lot i can imagine, when one officer a year may actually use it.. and even then it will be questionable if they needed to use it at all. I agree we need to feel safe doing a job, but we are in jersey, and to some extent it is safe (ish ) here, but im concerned this will be a massive drain on funding yet again to the island, which we cannot afford, look at all the health cuts! will we need to cut more services to pay for police to be taser trained?
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Hash Brown # 28 Eggsactly. I imagine however that the complainant or complaianants, reported that the alleged offenders were armed, otherwise I’d have hoped the Chief Officer, or his deputy wouldn’t have authorised his officers to draw their guns. They don’t usually give authority to arm themselves on a whim
There have of course been other incidents over the years, where suspects had an air waepon or shot gun. You are of course missing the point as there are many firearms in Jersey and that is there is potential for an armed seige to occur. It would be better to use Tasar in such situations as opposed to a firearm.
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+16 Thick blue line and +30 Steve
Like all stories, they are easily misunderstood when the full facts are not known.
Bridgewater is a notorius district where I have heard stories of Police being rapidly deployed after a fracas over a parking ticket. So much of that, that the term ‘NFB’ (Normal for Bridgewater) is the oft quoted acronym. So imagine an insurance query where the motorist came out of his car, fists clenched, nostrils falring, swearing loudly and coming right at you. Does that change the perspective?
Where was the threat with the teenager in the van? The threat was him ringing his mate and encouraging his mate to bring others to Minden Place for a riot. What would the officer rather do, grapple with him, thus risking injury to the teenager and the officer. Asp (truncheon) him, thus risking serious harm, or simply spray him, thus stopping the incitement and after a few minutes causing no harm to anyone.
Tasers? Good idea. Would have sorted out the Grands Vaux mis-management a lot more quickly than the Fred Carno show it turned out to be.
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Seem to recall photos of one of our fine upstanding officers spraying mace-like substance into the face of a chap (from behind) during the battle of Minden Place. Never heard the result of that little inquiry eh. Perhaps ILeM is redacting the report before it can be published.
I think the Police best learn to use the condiments before letting them carve or use the other toys.
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Has a shot ever been fired in anger by the Jersey Police? I can’t recall one. That demonstrates that lethal force has never been required in the island. Ever. It further demonstrates that the police are skilled enough to deal with these incidents in a sensible and passive way.
If I was weilding a machete and was suddenly staring down the barrel of an Heckler & Koch while being politely requested to put it down I think it would have the desired effect on me, rather than a ‘non-lethal’ alternative that might sting a bit!
Also, Blue Knight, you stated that hand guns and semi automatic weapons may be legally possessed in Jersey. Please explain because that is not my understanding of the law.
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Steve Sthelier # 30. With regards your recounting how an officer allegedly sprayed C.S. in the face of a youth during a public order situation.
Were you at the scene, or are you just going on what you read in the JEP, in the comfort of your arm chair?
If I recall correctly, a full and independent investigation was conducted and a report sent to the A.G., who decided not to prosecute the officer involved, as the evidence was inconclusive.
The question I would ask is, what was the youth doing on his mobile phone, in the middle of a large public disorder situation?
I am sorry if I seem a tad sceptical; that comes after encountering many people who were often economical with the truth.
Many people in the Island are trusted to have firearms, including pistols and semi automatic rifles – which people are not allowed to have in the U.K. You seem happy to trust them to have these weapons which can kill people, but not to trust the cops with a Tasar or CS spray – I don’t follow your logic.
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The police deserve to be safe as when we are in danger we call them…
I think there should be one unit assigned to each patrol car rather than each officer. The taser can then be deployed at the officers disgresion but with every use of the device there should be an investigation into whether it was used appropriately.
There are certainly times when these would have been used properly in the past and im sure there will be circumstances in the future that will call for these again so our police should have them available to them.
There should be rules like even removing your taser from your patrol car without reasonable cause will come with a punishment…
Bean bag guns and rubber bullets – No
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I have seen what hyped up young coppers have done with hand cuffs all because a motorist had the temerity to refute what was being said,inexperienced young coppers are often scared of people …exactly the sort of situation where an over the top response in the form of Tazer would be misused we have got on fine and dandy without them for years..this is a step to far.let us all resist it.
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I think most of the people posting on here have missed the point. I dont think the intention is for every officer to carry around a taser gun as part of their patrol but rather the armed response unit to have them as an alternative to live weapons. I do recall an incident where some kids were playing with a BB gun and it was reported to the police as an armed incident. The only option they currently have is to respond with their live weapons which if used at all are deadly where as a taser is a potentially non lethal option for them. I most certainly do not think that they should be carried by beat officers but should be made avaiable to the armed response guys.
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As a Taser Intructor working at a Police training academy outside of the UK i would like to point out a couple of issues regarding some of the rubbish some ill informed arm chair “Police Officers” have over the Taser issue. Firstly Taser is not a stun gun. It delivers 50,000 volts to a subject that will, if the spread between the two probes is at a correct distance (10cm or smore) stop the subject in their track by neuro-muscular incapacitation. The ampage is 100 times less than that of a defibulator and as those of you who did physics at school know its the amps and not the volts that kill! There have been NO recorded cases of Taser killing anyone, anywhere in the world. The tree huggers would like you to believe that is the case but it simply is not true! People have died as a result of a phenonemon called “Excited Delerium” and from pre existing medical conditions after they have been tasered but not, and i say again NOT, from Tasers themselves.
Taser is not a NON-LETHAL force option it is a less than lethal force option. I could explain the difference but it would no doubt fall on deaf ears.
Having served in Jersey on the Firearms team i can tell the ill informed that firearms incidents are not rare. They happen, and they are happening more and more often. As my old mate S2 put it so eloquently, the Grands Vaux fiasco could been ended earlier and more safely with Taser as a tactical option for the team. Instead that incident came within a split second of the subject being dealt with using lethal force!
The import issue that exists with Taser should have been resolved before i dug my escape tunnel from SOJP but obviously hasnt. Mr Warcup is right to push for Taser to be issued to existing, well trained, authorised Firearms Officers within SOJP. They should not and im sure will not be issued to the ordinary Officer on the beat, though they are in my force and are used to great effect.
For those ill informed, narrow minded people, who are a large majority on Jersey, you need to open your eyes. Before you criticise the boys and girls in blue, have the courage to sign on the dotten line and give it a go. Do a few years working a night shift over the weekend when the full moon is out and see how many times you wish you were tucked up in your bed while real men and women keep you safe!
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Truthseeker # 37. I would have no truck with coppers who get hyped up and act inappropriately. In the old days, these sort of characters used to be weeded out in the selection process. However since so called highly qualified Human Resources experts have taken over the selection procedure and political correctness has come to the fore, I have seen all sorts of oddballs get in – I can say that now I am retired (How I loved ‘Life on Mars’ and ‘Ashes to Ashes’……..You are surrounded by armed bar stewards!)
Temps passé they used to recruit lots of ex-armed forces people, who were pretty mature in their outlook on life. I am not sure about the criteria today, but I suspect it is pretty wishy washy.
I guess the cops have accept; they can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.
There are a number of critics who have contributed to this discussion and maybe they have had bad experiences with the cops – in that case I am sorry. All I can say is not every cop is totally bad, nor is every cop totally good. They usually just mirror the rest of society – they are just like many other guys and girls out there.
I would like to see Tasar being made available, but with strict controls for their deployment.
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I have no problem with a professional police officer being issued tazer, but I am concerned that the tool would be abused by The States of Jersey “we take anyone” Police.
To see the armed officers all mincing about outside the Royal Court during the Curtis Warren case, while members of the public walk right past them proves that they are tactically inept.
If the case warranted armed officers, a proper cordon should have been put in place around the building to keep members of the public at a safe distance. The police officers were wearing armour. What protection did the passers-by have in the event of an armed confrontation?
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Gary # 34. Just what is your understanding of the firearms law in Jersey? I know of plenty of people who still possess hand guns and semi automatic rifles in the island – should I report them to the authorities?
Chris Holmes # 39. A cogent explanation on why Jersey should adopt Tasar, from an ex-Grenadier Guardsman and excellent cop who left the island in the reign of Messrs Power and Harper.
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Chris Homles at 41 What is a dotten line!? And who are the real boys and girls!? rather inflammatory talking from someone who might regard himeself as a “professional”………paid to do a job by choice me thinks. And seemingly want to take short cut for policing by pointing electric guns at people who pay you through taxes.Don’t be a police officer if you’re not up to the job please thank you.
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I think the general public should be able to buy a stun gun to protect ourselves from over zealous states and honorary police.
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S2 at 34, we have never heard of the saying to which you refer regarding bridgewater. Perhaps it is a local saying or something which is said within your lounge. Never heard of it.
The chap who was shot in the groin was doing nothing. There will be an enquiry into the disproportionate and violent police act.
The fact that we are debating the case shows why the “rolling out” of this police weapon needs to be looked at extremely closely.
The chap who was shot was insured. The officers, quite literally, shot first and asked questions later. Why did they do it? Who knows? A clue, however, might come from the fact that the innocent motorist was large and heavily tattooed. Perhaps the officers, untrained in old fashioned police methods, simply decided that he was rather intimidating and were afraid to deal with the matter properly. There is the problem. Fear on the part of the officers, coupled with ready access to a weapon which could prove fatal to those with a heart condition. Not a very pleasant prospect and not really something which reflects any courage.
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I don’t like the idea of an officer having a hissy fit and pointing the gun at me. Sometimes you only have to answer back and they call it a “threat”. Mind you, if the main man is leaving because he doesn’t like being called rude names what hope is there for any other part of the (quote) service (unquote)
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I was hoping that, eventually, someone would post a comment on Taser that was factually correct and, at last, my hope has been fulfilled. #41 Chris Holmes, you have brilliantly ’shot down in flames’ the many unqualified, tactically naive, never walked a beat, arm chair ‘experts’ who have posted comments concerning the Taser and its use by Police Officers. The very best of luck to you in your new (?) Instructors post. I’ll wager that whichever Force is now employing you can’t believe its luck in obtaining the services of someone who clearly knows his ‘onions’ – or in this case – his Tasers.
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Cast your minds back a few months to the seige in Seale Street, and you’ll see how our local police force tends to overact. The street was closed for several hours and blockaded by armed police. I understand that the police were after two very dangerous men, who had been throwing eggs at their neighbour.
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41Chris Holmes it is exactly that sort of self righteousness that causes distrust…you are outside ,and I hope you stay outside we do not need your sort here ..this is by and large a peaceful place..paramilitary thinking is neither welcome or required….what is there here that cops with Alsations,batons and shields really can’t handle…we don’t need nuclear capability.
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lets not give the police tazers . we all saw on channel news outside minden street car park during the so called football riots how they used there new pepper sprays
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I remember an old work-mate with what could be termed mental health problems, holding off Jersey’s finest with a broom shank for a substantial length of time. That was many years ago. When was the last life-threatening attack on a copper here where a Taser would have helped?
I also saw a hobby bobby blatantly disregard the rules concerning pepper spray(squirting it into the back of a police van containing “football hooligans”,after the great football riots following a game at the European Championships in Portugal,then slamming the doors shut). If they can’t be trusted with pepper spray who the hell would trust them with a potentially lethal Taser? (If the States police get them, it’ll only be a matter of time before the Honoraries do) We’re policed by idiots trying to justify their positions. File this tosh in the folder marked ‘Health and Privacy recommendations’.
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PS, Kage#38, give one example of “There are certainly times when these would have been used properly in the past”.
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Tazer guns??? why this is insane…..give them real guns! and that will sort out all the teenagers littering the streets at night!!
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Yeah nice one Chris Holmes – comment @ 41
I was interested right up to the part about how “real men and women keep you safe”
Infering what exactly ?
That somehow other people aren’t real men or women because they’re not in the Police ?
What a crass comment.
If they want Tasers, the police should have to do 2 years policing in a big city learning how to treat the pulic properly properly before they start policing this Island – Crime over here thankfully doesn’t appear as bad as other areas in the UK.
Most of the kick offs I’ve been unlucky enough to have witnessed over the years have been worsened by the bad policing of it. And I’m pretty sure that if the police would have had Tasers when I was younger, I’d have witnessed plenty of people being unnecessarily “shot”
Is there really a need for them in Jersey ?
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What’s all the fuss about? Poster 41 is spot on with his/her summary. Admittedly Jersey is nothing like Hackney etc but the mere fact that people own guns presents a risk. I’m sure the Cumbria police force didn’t think they had a problem with shootings….until a few weeks ago!!
And it’s not just guns, knives, bats etc are all used as dangerous weapons.
One more thing. It doesn’t say as such in the article but I’d bet my last nicker that Warcup didn’t mean arming every single Jersey cop with a Taser gun. The level of skilled training that goes into firearms/public order training is very sophisticated. No way would they dole them out as personal issue. Every time a cartridge is discharged it has to be accounted for when the gun is handed back. They don’t take them home with them you know.
Jersey is a safe place, it’s not violent and we don’t have the problems of the large UK cities. But the risk is still there albeit comparatively low.
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No they dont need Tasars they just need to learn how to police correctly and not fall for corruption or cow towing to politicians.
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#41 Totally agree with you, on the proviso that they are only used on people that are armed, there are better ways to deal with crowd control that are mostly preventative rather than reactive, yet other European forces are quick to charge in on non-violent crowds. However, if someone has armed themsevlves I’d have no issue with them being shot in the shoulder to disarm them! I would hope on the basis that I will never be armed that I, therefore, wouldn’t have to fear the taser.
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Can we have more specific information on each of the reported 18 deployments of armed police in Jersey last year “where a weapon was seen”? I don’t recall any media coverage or prosecutions.I have an open mind, though in the absence of this information,it would appear that the introduction of Tasers is open to some abuse, via those empowered to use them, knowing that they are apparently non lethal and open to more liberal usage,as a result.
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Bighorse. I already did give an example. Maybe 5 years ago I was at a house party, in Jersey, on a private estate and there was a fight between two men who had been drinking heavily. One of them chased the other out the house with a very large, very sharp knife. When the police arrived they sore him and did take chase on foot but I thought at the time ‘He could be running faster….’ and thats totally fair. it was the next day the man was arrested and by that time he had got rid of the weapon and I feel was never properly punished. If the responding officer had a tazer he would have bought the suspect to his knees immediately which is absolutely what should have happened. Or do you expect officers to chase drunk, weapon wielding nutters into the dark without a way of actually bringing them down? And this CANNOT be the only case in which a tazer would have been useful. Violent and dangerous people do live and operate in Jersey but the average 9-5 middle class working good man just never comes into contact with them.
Would you have tackled the man with the knife, used a tazer if it was available to you, or left this dirty job to someone else, Bighorse?
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All for Tazers, just because the crime wasn’t bad in the past doesn’t mean it won’t be in the future. Speaking to Honoraries who now wear knife proof vests to the incidents of knife crime around St Aubins and St Helier on a Fri and Sat night is perfect argument to bring in Tazers.
Truthseeker – your comments only go to prove your poor arguments: Raol Moat – good riddance!
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I suggest that the belief that the Tazer is non-lethal is open to question. Amnesty International have reported that the use of the Tazer is linked to 245 deaths. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser_safety_issues
for the details.
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62. Can you substantiate the knife crime claim? I may have missed it but I do not recall any stabbings and/or threats of knife violence being reported in the media..I agree that both real and honorary police should wear stab vests as a precaution but would disagree that they are needed due to actual knife crime in and around night spots at a weekend
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Firstly it’s called TASER and not Tazar or Tazer. If you want to comment please at least know what you are talking about.
I have served in both the UK armed forces and the Police Service. I have served as a frontline Police Officer both in Jersey as well as the largest Policing jurisdiction in the world.
Jersey people seem very quick to criticise the boys and girls in blue who work within the States of Jersey Police. Jersey by its geographical nature is unique. It is therefore also unique as a Policing jurisdiction. It must, by its isolated location, provide Policing services that in the UK a division would have the responsibility for. It cannot call on mutual aid every day of the week as Cumbria had to do in its recent firearms incident. Jersey is on its own, always has been.
Jersey certainly had a very professional firearms team before I left for pastures new. I was part of that team as well as partly responsible for their training. Under ECHR legislation all UK Police Services are legally obliged to have less than lethal force options available to them. They obviously also have access to lethal force options. Jersey is no different in that respect as they are governed by the Association of Chief Police Officers Manual of Guidance on Police Use of Firearms.
I suspect by now all UK Police Firearms Teams have access to TASER as a tactical option available to them. Just because they have them doesn’t mean they have to use them, hence why I refer to it as a tactical option. SOJP have access to a number of different firearms but they have not yet had to use them. Believe me when I tell you though there have been a number of incidents where they have come extremely close. Thankfully Jersey remains one of the few Police services who have yet to suffer the heartbreak of having to end a firearms incident using lethal force. Long may that remain the case.
If they do not have access to less than lethal force options they limit the options they do have when dealing with armed offenders. Surely even the ill informed arm chair tacticians can agree with that! TASER will not be rolled out to every Officer walking the streets of St.Helier. They will require a Chief Officers, Deputy Chief Officers or Superintendants authority to arm as they do now. They don’t just open the armoury when Hedley goes potty in his garden shed you know! They have guidelines that must be adhered to.
Feel free to criticise all you like but when you go loopy one day with a knife or firearm, would you prefer to be subjected to 5 seconds of pain, or would you prefer a 9mm jacketed hollow point in the chest? I rest my case.
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Dear God, don’t suggest giving Honouraries tasers! The ultimate in silly little power-hungry old men. The amount of time they waste sitting on street corners clicking their speed guns you’d have to wander how much fun they’d have with their tasers in those dangerous badlands down at St Aubin…
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Realist 60 – A weapon doesn’t have to be a gun, Could quite easily be a knife etc.
Weapons aren’t routinely carried. They are kept locked at the Police Station. Should an incident occur where firearms or weapons MAY be present, then a very high up Officer could give officers who are trained as AFO (Authorised Firearms Officers) permission to return to the Police Station and arm themselves. Even then, they may go to the scene but might remain in vehicles. They are there as a last resort.
The very last thing an officer on the island wants to do is shoot someone. Imagine that you are a AFO and someone with a gun turns and points it at you. You have a split second to decide if you think they will shoot you, and if you do, then you need to pull your trigger and shoot them first – probably killing them. That officer whould then have “trial by media” with everyone giving their own opinion of if they made the right decision. That officer and their family would probably have to leave the island to get away from it as they would always be known as the Police Officer who killed someone.
The Tazer is a “less lethal” option. If someone has a knife and is refusing to put it down and also threatening to stab anyone who came near them, then the current option would be to fire at them with baton rounds. This “could” kill them. By firing a tazer at them, no-one actually needs to get close and it is far more likely that the person will make a full recovery.
Not every case that weapons are a
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Saw a guy on “police camera action”. He was under arrest. His arms were behind his back, his hands restrained in a hand cuff bar.
The guy was helpless. He was questioning the authority of the arresting officers. One told him to keep quiet, or he would be silenced. He did not keep quiet.
Suddenly, one officer forces his restrained arms up against the movement of the victim’s shoulder joints. A good prospect of causing a nasty soft tissue injury. Why? Beceause the restrained prisoner answered back.
To make a bad situation even worse, the police were proud enough of this cowardly incident to parade it on national television! An unwise move, perhaps, because of the evidential nature of the recording for future action for assault.
What does this show? It shows that the modern police may be out of control. It also shows a failure to know how to police properly.
On another episode of the same program, an officer gave an interview. The officer was clearly a bodybuilder and bore the hallmarks of anabolic steroid abuse. How can an officer be allowed to be in the “service” when he is clearly taking a substance which is linked to agression and outbursts of violence?
In short, let us look closely at the actions and culture of modern policing before we let these people loose with potentially lethal weapons.
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68 Speedy: You don’t know the exact story of what had led up to the arrest or the short piece of footage that was on TV. There are several reasons why the officer could have used the force. Maybe he had seen the guy colleting a mouthful of spit ready to send it in the officer’s direction. More than enough justification to use force to get the guy to comply with his requests or to put him on the floor where his head can be pinned to the floor to stop him spitting.
Any Police force who allows TV crews to go out with them would require any footage that is broadcast to be checked by them beforehand and I’m sure that if the force didn’t like what the Officer had done, then you wouldn’t have seen it on TV.
If Officers have to use any force, then the resons for using it would be fully written up in a statement. Certainly in my force, there is a form which has to be filled out when any “non-compliant” force is used. Just another piece of paperwork to be filled out….
Also, many forces require officers to undertake random drug testing. Failure to take the test can result in them loosing their jobs. Certainly officers in specialist roles can be tested quite frequently. I have several friends who are bodybuilders – including some serving police officers. I would be interested in what your “hallmarks of anabolic steroid abuse” consist of and how you could deduce that the officer was a drug user from an interview on TV…….
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Keyser Söze 63.
Very interesting link, food for thought…
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Go to YouTube: Vancouver Airport – Robert Dziekanski’s Taser Death (Full), then watch ‘Filmer commentary’…even the best tools in bad hands can become a nightmare.
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64 Sensible: if you rely on the facts about knife crime from the paper then you will miss it. It is of a regular occurance in terms of knives being pulled and threats made. It woudl fill the papers. Same as all threats, they don’t all get reported to police, and those that do there is no point publishing them due to volume. 1 in about 80 knife threats go to court, so perhaps checks the court records (which I do). So Sensible, if you truly wish to live up to your name, don’t just rely on the papers please.
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@45 Heriques Aloisedent “Chris Homles at 41 What is a dotten line!? And who are the real boys and girls!? rather inflammatory talking from someone who might regard himeself as a “professional”………paid to do a job by choice me thinks.”
Please – if you’re going to criticise someone for their spelling, at least get yours correct.
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Just because it isn’t reported in the JEP doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen!!!!
Not every child abuse, wife/husband beating is reported, so far as your concered its not a major problem in Jersey…you really need to wake up a bit.
And what about the 2 officers who were attacked with a very large knive in Fountain Lane last year and all they had to use was an asp and CS spray….that wasnt reported in the JEP so it doesnt count hey???!!!!
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Whatever next?? Now with only one Officer in the Complaints and Discipline department maybe he will need one to.
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You can tell steroid use by water retention, acne and other particular bodily signs. Anyone who knows anything about the matter will be able to tell with very reasonable accuracy whether someone is juicing or not. “Some of my best friends are bodybuilders, my dear”. The guy on television was posing no threat at all, I saw the tv show in question as well. In my force, the officer would have been disciplined. And you don’t need random tests to tell a possible steroid user. Just use your eyes and your common sense if you have any. Then you perform the test and find dianobol, decca durabolin and all sorts of other stacking delights.
Difficult to see how a restrained suspect would be able to spit at an officer standing behind him. What would he use? A curved funnel and a series of mirrors? Perhaps the officer should be more circumspect. We all know that suspects are open to assault and abuse for exercising their right to criticise a public servant. That is what happened on the televisual feast in question. Let’s not kid ourselves.
The fact that persons who claim to be other officers are vociferously and aggressively posting messages here tends to show why any further addition to our powers and weaponry needs to be considered and reconsidered.
We officers need to earn respect before we begin to shout for weapons. We also need to re-learn the apparently lost art of how to police properly.
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Andrew at 69:
“Any Police force who allows TV crews to go out with them would require any footage that is broadcast to be checked by them beforehand and I’m sure that if the force didn’t like what the Officer had done, then you wouldn’t have seen it on TV.”
You are, in effect, saying two things:
1. If the police don’t like something that is filmed, they will block the transmission of the film on television;
2. The police will only let something be broadcast if they approve of its content. In this case, the broadcast material depicted an assault on a restrained detainee. It follows that the police in this case have no problem with officers assaulting restrained detainees.
An interesting and illuminating example of police culture, it would seem.
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Very clever, Andrew at 69. If you don’t know what steroid abuse is, or the signs of it, and you claim to be a police officer then I am suggest you go on a drugs awareness course.
If, as you say, you have friends who are bodybuilders, then perhaps you could ask one of them to educate you on the matter.
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Why are there so many idiots in Jersey and why do they all have to either make stupid comments to the media…or the media only “half-reports” the actual story?!
If there are problems with gun ownership in Jersey….then TIGHTEN GUN LAWS!
There is absolutely no reason to condone the need for introducing tazers because the authorities are afraid that guns can be easily possessed in Jersey…….is not ILLEGAL to import a firearm??
Perhaps the police force really need to equip themselves with PEOPLE SKILLS instead.
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following on from my point 71
If guns can be legally imported and there is no law to prevent me from owning one then perhaps I’ll buy a gun…….even if it’s just to protect me from some power hungry, socially illiterate “law enforcer”.
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Number 69, Andrew, thank you. You say:
“If Officers have to use any force, then the resons for using it would be fully written up in a statement. Certainly in my force, there is a form which has to be filled out when any “non-compliant” force is used. Just another piece of paperwork to be filled out….”
All very well, but what mechanisms are in place to prevent an officer fabricating some account or colluding other officers to do so? How reliable is the procedure where a detainee alleges assault? Does the person who was assaulted receive a copy of the statement and of the form to which you refer?
The answer, if one has regard to situations like those seen on national television, must be that any such mechanisms are open to abuse or otherwise unfavourable to a complainant.
Perhaps the debate regarding the taser gun would be a good opportunity for forces to review their respective records in dealing with arrest subjects and for the forces now to draw up greater protection for those who are assaulted by officers. Then, and only then, should the matter of lethal weapons be considered. I rather fear that we may have a long way to go before the police are deemed to be fit to be handed these dangerous devices.
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Andrew above:
“68 Speedy: You don’t know the exact story of what had led up to the arrest or the short piece of footage that was on TV. There are several reasons why the officer could have used the force. Maybe he had seen the guy colleting a mouthful of spit ready to send it in the officer’s direction. More than enough justification to use force to get the guy to comply with his requests or to put him on the floor where his head can be pinned to the floor to stop him spitting.”
Well no, but neither do you. The “maybe” reasons which you give are, by definition, speculation. What about the (dare one say it) possibility that the officers used force where none was needed and thereby acted unlawfully?
Is your mind closed to such a possibility (worrying if it is, bearing in mind your claim to be a policeman) or do you really think that Noddy lives in Toytown?
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Chris Holmes.
You say how the police fiarms units are controled by the ACPO.
This is Jersey, the ACPO have been found to be a load of incompedent, corrupt, fools, who don’t know the first thing about policing.
Probably not the best thing to brag about.
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#72 ‘1 in about 80 knife threats go to court, so perhaps checks the court records (which I do).’
If that is the case, surely we should be concerned about why the other (about)79 instances don’t go to court.
Which records do you checks (sic) that reveal this evidence of nearly 99% tolerance of knife crime?
If this is anecdotal, where do your figures come from?
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72 + 74 – Not once did I mention the JEP or any “paper”, I said I have not seen knife crime reported in the media. It was a simple enough question which did not warrant sarcastic point scoring answers.
My point was that I do not think the streets of St Helier are filled with knife crime, I regularly go out on Friday and Saturday nights and have never seen or heard of an officer being involved in a stabbing and/or close call. That was why I asked for proof of this. To suggest that as only 1 in 80 knife threats actually go to court means that for every one reported there are 79 unreported cases in Jersey is a convenient use of statistics. Statistics can be used to prove all sides of the argument, 9 out of 10 people know that. As I said, I do believe that officers should wear stab vests as a matter of course but I think its a bit of scaremongering to suggest that St Helier and St Aubin at the weekend are filled with knife crime.
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Hardly a good time for the Jersey police to be seeking even more powers. We have just been enlightened as to the fact that the top men were out of control with regard to the Haut de la Garenne matter. Given the fact that there was no accountability and no checks and balances of any sort, then we have to ask what would happen if officers were allowed to carry lethal electric weapons. After all, the track record on accountability and probity in office is not there at the moment.
Why is Warcup raising this matter now and causing all this trouble? Is it a contemptuous passing salvo? A swansong if you will? The timing seems most unwise, not only because he is leaving (and it therefore is not really any of his business) but also because an enquiry is under way in England into the use of the weapons by officers. Just think, if it suited Mr Warcup, he could hide behind the “sub judice” shield or even, heaven forbid, actually and wisely keep his thoughts to himself at this time, but he chooses instead to raise the matter when an enquiry is pending. Why would that be?
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#85 Sensible: You said “reported in the media” – the JEP is the local media. There was no sarcasm, it was a factual statement on your side which warranted a response. I repeat the point, most knife crime does not get reported in the media – you really need to get out more and stop using media as your source of information.
Now you are making up numbers.
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Steve at 83 – ACPO means Association of Chief Police Officers. It is the representative group of all UK Chief Officers, which rather calls into question your idiotic comment.
Chris Holmes – good to hear your comments, which are based on knowledge and experience, not the hysterical ramblings of most people on this post…
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As I haven’t seen the footage, I can’t give my view on it. If the force thought that the use of force was unlawful, then I’m sure that Officer would have been investigated for it.
There isn’t really anyway to stop an officer from “fabricating some account or colluding other officers to do so”. If I saw an Officer do something unlawful then I wouldn’t have an issue in confirming that. All it needs is for a 3rd party to have videod the incident then it’s me in court and out of a job as well.
If a detainee allges assault when they are bought into Custody then a note would be made on the Custody record and the person would be informed of how they can further that complaint. Every force has a fully publicised complaints procedure. The statement covering the use of form would be in the court documents that the defence advocate would have access to. If a complaint was made to the police about the force used then the form would be made available too.
The example I used about spitting was a possibility. As I said, I haven’t seen the footage so don’t know if there were other officers nearby. Even is someone is handcuffed, it doesn’t totally incapacitate them. The Police don’t have to wait until the detained person tries to kick or spit at an officer. If they “resonably” believe that this may happen due to the actions of the detained person (such as saying they are going to kick you or can be seeing collecting spit in their mouth) then the Officer is fully entitled to use force to stop this from happening. In most cases, the person would be forced to the ground where their head and legs can be restrained.
ACPO recommend that all Officers undertake 12 hours of Personal Safety Training a year. This includes refreshers on Use of Force, the Conflict Management Model, what is reasonable force etc.
Getting back to Jersey, I don’t think that the Acting Chief Officer is suggesting that every Officer will be given their own Tazer. The force will probably get 4 or 5 which are kept locked up in the Police Armory. Only those Officers who are already trained to shoot people with real guns would be allowed to use them.
People say that they aren’t needed. Only last week I went to a Domestic at around 3am between a couple. The male had left the property very agitated and it was believed he took a large kitchen knife with him. He was last seen entering a park. We had to go into the park to find him. When we did locate him a short time later, we didn’t know if he still had a knife on him. He said that he didn’t, but several Officers still had to walk up to him and handcuff him in order for him to be searched. When we found him, consideration was being given for the Firearms team to be sent to us. They already have Tazer and so Officers would be safer walking up to him in order to handcuff him with another Officer pointing a tazer at him. If he suddenly pulled out the knife then he could have been tazered to stop him from stabbing the officers. At the moment in Jersey, the only option they would have is to fire a baton round or a real bullet at him – which could kill him.
The public aren’t fully aware of what happens all the time. This case won’t make the papers as no action is being taken against the man. No knife was found and no assault had taken place between the couple. It did how ever result in approx 10 Officers dealing with it and a FireArms team on the verge of being sent to it.
It is far better to have the Tazer available for an event sometime in the future rather than saying after they have shot someone dead “if we had had a tazer then he would still be alive now”.
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The only guarantee that an innocent people do not get hit with these things is not to have them…it’s just another encroachment and erosion of individual freedoms…we do not want to live in a police state,the balance of power should be with the people,Govt should only exist with consensus…..
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87 – RT, thanks I will get out more despite the scaremongering about Jersey and its mean streets. I will leave you to your Daily Mail, good day sir.
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Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Is this someones idea of an April fool?? Hang on it’s July?? Just someones idea of a joke then ha ha ha ha ha use the money to send them on courses to improve their policing!! Don’t give them more power they are already power mad as it is!
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Like your argument at #90. Also goes to show that guilty one’s get away. As long as we have well trained police, and innocent people, then would rather Police have tasers for guilty, not innocent. That argument is as pointless aqs yours get!
Typical Pommie reponse to police having weapons: “Stop or I will say ‘Stop’ again!”
Hilarious, that is why London is the way it is, need more coppers with weapons to uphold the law. Jersey does as well. End of.
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BS Delux – I have read your comments before and usually agree to a certain extent but your ignorance in this particular matter and toward the police has literally astounded me. And that isnt an easy thing to do. Well done mate.
I would also say the same to anyone who slates the police based on what they have seen on the TV.
If you have seen it on TV, its there because its an extreme case. They dont just put every case on TV do they. And if anyone is building opinions on life by watching the TV. I would say get out of the house more!
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Police protection is an oxymoron. Free citizens must protect themselves. Police do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess.
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Andrew,
Yes, you will have had bad experiences. But that must go with the job which you choose you do. Your reaction to the television program is interesting. Initially, you ventured an opinion. You now concede that you are, in fact, no position to comment. You go on to argue a number of your anecdotal accounts.
The fact is, incidents of police misconduct and assaults on prisoners abound. For various reasons, they usually escape detection and, if they are detected, they usally escape publicity.
It is not unreasonable to call for a study of police methods (which appear to be overly reliant on force and weaponry rather than proper, intelligent means) before officers are permitted to carry and to use these weapons. If you cannot even agree with that then I would suggest that such an attitude, if endemic in the force would in itself provide the reason why the taser gun must not be allowed.
You have admitted in earlier posts that you have police colleagues who are bodybuilders. Apart from the known association with the use of anabolic steroids and illicit hormone intake, this begs the question as to why a police officer would want to pump himself up in this way. Apart from suggesting an attitude that would place over reliance on the use of force, the adequacy of the officer to use intelligent powers of persuasion must come into question, as well as the self image of that officer.
As an aside, the fact that no knife was found on the man speaks volumes. No doubt he would have been shot with a Taser had it been available. Then we would have had a case similar to that in England recently where an innocent man was shot by overreacting, timid officers who realised after the event that they had made an awful and legally expensive mistake.
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Kage
I have seen how the police (and honoraries) act with my own eyes thank you. I even know a few coppers and believe me when I tell you that some of the ones I know were hoodlums themselves before enlisting for the good wages.
My point, which I failed to get across properly, was there is no need for Tazers. If there is a firearm problem then tighten the laws (no rocket science).
How about teaching the police martial arts instead?
The problem I have with this is that in reality (without the BS scaremongering all the time) Jersey is still a safe place to live. Try living in Johannesburg!
Who will pay for these unnecessary “weapons”?
Who will pay for extra training?
Who will pay for legal aid when someone needs to sue a trigger happy policeman?
You and I……the taxpayer.
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Peeps who go out driving and things should be able to drive and walk on the streets without a policeman shooting them with a stun gun.
Policemen are public servants, not out there to shoot peeps. If it happens, it will be a shame because peeps won’t like the police and peeps will probably get their own guns to protect themselves.
Peeps in england get shot even when they aren’t doing anything like driving without insurance. Peeps with tattoos and large build more likely to get shot because policemen are scared of them.
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BS deluxe:
“Who will pay for legal aid when someone needs to sue a trigger happy policeman?
You and I……the taxpayer.”
No, that is incorrect. The Advocates and Jersey solicitors pay for legal aid themselves under the legal aid rota system. It has nothing to do with public money.
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Yeoman Noised # 96. All police officers are taught to use the continuum of force; this starts with officers requesting a person to do something, then instructing them to do it, then having to use soft arm tactics, then increased physical force, then used C.S / or similar, then the ASP (or truncheon as it used to be), then Tasar and finally deadly force i.e. firarms.
Most police officers would prefer things not to escalate beyond the communication phase, ie. requesting and instrcuting. However in many hostile situations which are often fueled by alcohol, or drugs, or a combination of both with high emotions, situations rapidly change. This results in police officers having to make on the spot decisions,in often hostile circumstances, that many other people will never have to take.
Officers selected for specialist firearms duties however, go through a tremendous amount of training and they are only too aware thay their actions will be placed under the microscope. They know they will be debriefed after an incident and they try their darndest not to mess things up. These will be the guys and girls expected to use Tasar – not your average police officer.
That said, cops are only human and like anyone else can make mistakes – Murphy’s Law is always ready to trip people up.
These problems occur throughout the world, yet I’ll wager the cops in Jersey are better disciplined than in most other countries. Overall, they are less likely to use unlawful force on the public than elsewhere. Yes there might have been the odd hic up, but these problems don’t occur that often.
The Island’s authorites allow many people in Jersey (who have not been put through the stringent selection proceedures that police firearms officers have had) to hold hand guns, semi automatic rifles and shotguns. In the wrong hands these are lethal waepons. Yet people are against giving Tasar to the police to allow them to have a tactical ‘non lethal’ weapon to deal with often hostile and violent criminals. It is difficult to understand many of the above arguements against equipping the SoJP with this piece of kit.
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Shoot them.
I suggest if anyone is dangerous or has a dangerous weapon in their possession then they should be shot. Quickly and painlessly – this will then:
1. stop him from harming others
2. be an example to other ‘idiots’ who think it is cool to be armed
End of.
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# 97 BS Deluxe said
“My point, which I failed to get across properly, was there is no need for Tazers. If there is a firearm problem then tighten the laws (no rocket science).”
But IT IS rocket science. Hundreds, literally hundreds of people here have firearms, all held legally. Then, one day, something will go wrong; drink, divorce, job, kids, stress, whatever (Hungerford, Dunblane, Cumbria) and that person will go berserk. You can’t then change the laws in an instant so his/her guns disappear out of their hands. It’s happeniung in front of you.
And in case you’re thinking ‘well, let’s ban all guns then,’ that will never work either as this democratic society will not allow it.
But, as you are trying to stress the point, you are missing it. If there is a problem with a person holding a firearm, 99 times/100 he will be dealt with by officers using a firearm, so Taser won’t come into it.
Taser will be used mostly for other lethal situations; knives, bats, chains and even the persons sheer size and because this is a non-lethal option (no deaths directly from Taser as my buddy down under avowed)this is precisely the reason it should be used.
You then go onot say
“How about teaching the police martial arts instead?”
Sorry, but this really is armchair critique at it’s finest.
The Police are taught basic martial arts and I saw the A&E pictures once of an American black belt cop who thought he could take on a knife wielding maniac. Not a pretty sight as I think there were around 500 stitches waiting to go in the huge cuts.
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#99 ‘The Advocates and Jersey solicitors pay for legal aid themselves under the legal aid rota system. It has nothing to do with public money.’
That’s absolutely true, Jenny. Furthermore, there is no way that the lawyers make up the shortfall brought about by their generosity by overpricing other services.
Instead, they have to go without luxuries and draw upon their personal savings, to the potential disadvantage of their children’s inheritance.
Their magnanimity in saving the public from any expense is both touching and laudable. Yet again the Jersey system is an example that the world should follow.
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#100 ‘I suggest if anyone is dangerous or has a dangerous weapon in their possession then they should be shot.’
Shoot them for being dangerous? Shoot them for possesing a dangerous weapon?
Your suggestion appears to be carte blanche for summary execution.
Have you worked out how to make it happen ‘Quickly and painlessly’?
Perhaps by using #95’s ‘9mm jacketed hollow point in the chest’?
I don’t think that you were advocating using a stun gun. Was your use of the cliché ‘End of’ meant to be more final?
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R B Bougourd # 104. You are the only person advocating summary execution, as I certainly haven’t referred to this.
I guess you missed what other contributors have discussed about Article 2 of the Human Rights (Jersey) Law and the right to life.
I can only surmise your entry was tongue in cheek….your having a ‘giraffe’ mate.
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Many seem to think every violent incident is reported in our newspaper. Of course it isn’t. The police deal with violent threatening incidents regularly on our streets. Where is our respect for these authority figures? This is the way things are going, many on here showing no respect. I was brought up to respect the police. A lack of respect is why they need these weapons. If everyone behaved it would not be necessary. And others seem to want to wait until someone is killed over here. There are many people over here with lethal weapons. I would rather we were prepared for the worst and not wait until it happens, because it will happen here. We are always just a few years behind England. We should use the advantage we have and prepare.
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So the States are making cuts everywhere. The firearms unit has never fired a shot in anger,all that expensive training and a zero result,disarm them and close the department,huge savings for the taxpayer!!
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#100 – “Overall, they (Jersey police officers) are less likely to use unlawful force on the public than elsewhere.”
Please provide your sources for this statement, or did you just make it up?
Thanks
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I just watched the tasering of the Polish guy on you tube when he was tasered by the police, it is horrific how another human being can be treated like that it is terrible. I feel that our police should not be allowed to use tasers otherwise the same thing will happen here. there must be other ways of dealing with dificult and dangerous people
that are more humane. it reminded me of the death of an animal at the abbatoir and this was a vulnerable human being!
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107 – Teflon
Are you joking me? So what do we do when there is a firearms offence taking place? I remember a couple years ago the tunnel was shut because 2 shots were fired by some random with a gun. Who do we send after that man? Officers with no weapons at all? That would be a suicide mission
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Tooth Fairy # 108. I believe the idea is the prosecution has to prove guilt; those you accuse don’t have to prove their innocence.
My assertion is not made up it’s a fact – you prove otherwise…….any way why do the police want sten guns?
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A better idea would be to recruit people from more educated backgrounds who were well mannered and polite.
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Real Truthseeker 93.
Re: “Typical Pommie reponse to police having weapons…”
Maybe we pommies just don’t like to see people being treated in a savage way…you obviously come from a more rugged locality!
As I said at 71. – Go to YouTube: Vancouver Airport – Robert Dziekanski’s Taser Death (Full), then watch ‘Filmer commentary’…even the best tools in bad hands can become a nightmare.
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Andy # 112.Ah that old chestnut. Who says cops aren’t well educated, well mannered and polite? Doubltless you’ll imagine that you are the epitome of politeness, manners and education – not to mention your delusion of having a higher I.Q. than police officers. Go an have a word with the Tooth Fairy, who has made a comment earlier in this debate.
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Sorry, Sentinel, I meant #101, Zero tolerance. That’s what can happen when post numbers are quoted without names as well.
Hope my reference now makes sense to you, especially if you have also read #101.
I most certainly wasn’t tongue in cheek or having a laugh, mate. Perhaps Zero Tolerance was but I fear that he probably wasn’t. To me it looked like he was advocating summary execution.
Remind me, please, what other contributors have discussed about Article 2 of the Human Rights (Jersey) Law and the right to life. There are a lot of posts to wade back through and so far I can only find one from Blue Knight and his comment was far from clear as to what he meant.
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Blue Sentinel of the (K)Night.
If I had had the patience to wait for the thread to refresh, I could have confirmed the connection which I suspected. Who were the other contributors then? I didn’t notice anything from ZBD, he doesn’t get on here nowadays!
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They could use their wallets to protect themselves should be bigger & fatter than a “vest”
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I don’t trust some officers with a speed gun let alone a firearm.
But what is proposed is allowing highly trained armed response offficers to have a non-lethal option – which is better for all concerned surely, human rights and all that!
If a suspect puts himself in a position which justifies the use of a Tazer and he is the one in a million who dies as a result – that is his responsibility not just the police officers.
As I recall, the Grands Vaux incident, the perp was believed to be armed with an air rifle and it was only on Harper’s orders that the property was NOT stormed by armed officers – was it not the highly trained young officers who bemoaned not being allowed to storm the building with lethal weapons??
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#117 David
Like your first two paragraphs, but let me put you right on the Grands Vaux incident.
The building was never going to be stormed by armed officers.
The Senior officer in charge (Gold Command), for the first half of the incident, thought he was second in command and the second in command (Silver)never visited the scene nor viewed the plans of the flat.
The weapon was never verified as an air weapon until it was seized after the incident had finished.
After a couple of hours, Gold was given information which led him to believe it was an air weapon so he ordered the firearms team to disarm themselves.
The next day, in the UK, someone was shot dead with an air rifle. Someone I know here, has an air rifle so powerful, the pellet can penetrate a crash helmet.
The firearms team were left in situ, which menat that for anyone without a ballistic shield with a window in it (there was only one), anyone looking at the doorway of the besieged flat was putting their life in danger. Most of the team were at a distance of no more than ten yards.
The siege was ended when several firearms members crowded the front door and all let loose with CS through the broken doorway window. The suspect was sprayed and the fallout meant most of that unit were incapacitated too. During that moment, the suspect still had control of the sir rifle.
A stun gun would have been the ideal solution.
Gold command ignored tactical advice during that scenario, during which he out peoples lives at risk. It could have easily gone horribly wrong.
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#98 ‘Peeps who go out driving and things should be able to drive and walk on the streets without a policeman shooting them…
Policemen are public servants, not out there to shoot peeps. If it happens, it will be a shame because peeps won’t like the police and peeps will probably get their own guns to protect themselves.
Peeps in england get shot even when they aren’t doing anything … Peeps with tattoos and large build more likely to get shot because policemen are scared of them.’
You paint a frightening scene, Happy mondays. I will never peep my horn any more when police are around and I definitely won’t go peeping in windows for fear of being shot in my tracks.
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Sentinel de Nuit you made a claim that Jersey police are less likely to use unlawful force than anywhere else. What makes them ‘less likely’ than a police officer elsewhere – say, a cop on the Isle of Man, Cork, Dunedin, The Cook Islands? How did you come to this conclusion? What are the sources for your claim?
I don’t have to prove you are wrong because you made the claim; not me! I assume by your grandiose name that you are a cop (is that you again Dave/Blue Knight?). You should know then that, if you make a claim, you need to have some evidence to back it up.
In any event this is not about the prosecution proving anything, it is about you making an unsupported assertion with no sources to assist you. Your response is sophism at its finest.
I still think you made it up.
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I will be scared to leave my house when Jersey police officers are given these weapons
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S2 119 You are clearly trying to Big up the incident with your spiel.all that was required was the officers to don masks thus rendering themselves unaffected by the C.S.spray ,over dramatizing of these events is actually what is really dangerous, an emotionally overwrought youngster with an air gun or drunk or both was overpowered..the only consequence was the officers spraying themselves.a mask would have prevented simple…But that is not all and the Citizens need to know,the real Red herring here is Tazers are not so much required for isolated incidents as much as a way of being able to control the ordinary population this Govt has cocked up so grossly they are now really worried about public unrest civil disobedience and disorder,so beware, you would be in favour of something designed to be used as a deterrent against you..!
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R B Bougourd – Wasn’t ZBD from the Magic Roundabout? I am on your side when it comes to zero tolerance…..too many cops today are wishy washy. My time was in the era of ‘Ashes to Ashes’.
We didn’t have half the kit they have nowadays and we even had to buy our own handcuffs. Would you believe it, they wouldn’t consider purchasing us thumb screws for interview techniques, even for the worst criminals.
Now for the Tooth Fairy character – if you had the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and asked for the figures on complaints against the police for physical abuse in the U.K. and compared it with the figures released in the Jersey Annual Report, you’d see in ratio, there are fewer complaints on ‘The Rock’. Yes I know what your response will be, “There are three kinds of lies, lies, damned lies and statistics.”
P.S. I still support Tasars for the S.o.J.P.
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Can we all have them then!!!……. what if I come across some gun toting lune when I am about and there is no one to help?
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Rozel Aubin
said (reproduced in full)
“#99 ‘The Advocates and Jersey solicitors pay for legal aid themselves under the legal aid rota system. It has nothing to do with public money.’
That’s absolutely true, Jenny. Furthermore, there is no way that the lawyers make up the shortfall brought about by their generosity by overpricing other services.
Instead, they have to go without luxuries and draw upon their personal savings, to the potential disadvantage of their children’s inheritance.
Their magnanimity in saving the public from any expense is both touching and laudable. Yet again the Jersey system is an example that the world should follow.”"
It is difficult to undertstand what you are trying to say, Rozel, although it would seem that you are trying to convey something which is bitter and unpleasant.
Whether you like it or not, the legal aid system is paid for by the lawyers. That is the truth of the matter. The fact that you would appear to have a problem with lawyers in general is not relevant.
Perhaps you would prefer it if misconceptions were allowed to continue and the trust oascured. Hardly an intelligent nor a mature outlook really.
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114 Blue Knight
My manners are always impeccable when facing heavily armed Police who are keen to punish any insolence.
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More sophistry from Sentinel de Nuit I see – and no, you obviously didn’t know what my response would be.
It does not support your claim; namely, that Jersey police officers are “less likely to use unlawful force than anywhere else”, to refer me to a law that does not exist, which may have statistics (which you don’t provide), which you have not compared with a large number of other jurisdictions, in order to come to your conclusions.
Even if we had the ability (which we don’t have) of comparing per capita, vis-à-vis the UK, it doesn’t support your claim. You would in fact have to compare it with every police force on the planet.
I dare say that complaints about the North Vietnam police are relatively small by comparison – but for reasons of futility and pointlessness.
Your attempt to portray Jersey Police as the zenith of politeness, fairness, tolerance and restraint is impossible to prove one way or the other and it supports my theory that you made the claim up.
I suggest that you aim lower and (if you really must) compare whether our police are more or less likely to use unlawful force than, say, a Guernsey police officer. Relatively similar jurisdictions in terms of size, laws, police forces, social structures/issues etc. Your claim would be more credible that way.
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Why the girly hysteria from people worrying crazed police officers will run about zapping innocent members of the public?
They have had much bigger weapons for years without any problems – and from personal experience I know they have saved lives while carrying them.
All it means is they will have the same tools in their armoury as all other UK forces.
Too difficult a concept for some? Or just a convenient opportunity for more cop-bashing?
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I think you’ll find he is advocating the use of tazers over firearms as a less lethal option. Would the people of Jersey not feel safer if they knew that, god forbid, a Derek Bird or Raoul Moat, should happen, then the police will have the capability to deal with it?
The outcry seems to be atypicla Jersey reaction of being superior to other places. Let me tell you, its not.
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If the Police need one maybe I do too.
Lets make it legal for the general public to have tazers if we have established there is enough risk in Jersey.
Door staff are abused by drunks every weekend stab jackets, tazers and CS gas all round.
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I fall over laughing at the responses by Truthseeker – donning masks! Are you in some Batman movie? police are responsible, and I welcome their introduction of tasers to their arsenal against anti-social order. Simple – End Of.
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Euan Mee:
‘Why the girly hysteria from people..’
We’ve had cries of “Racist” on another topic. Now it’s time for “Sexist”!
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This place is not like Los Angeles yet; but maybe they’re preparing for when the Permanent Oligarchy complete their pet project of turning Jersey into a concrete jungle and flooding it with immigrants…
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#85 Sensible
What on earth made you think my comment was aimed towards you????
Anyway, it was a FACT, not a sarcastic remark, in response to the generalised comments made on here.
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#126, I was merely pointing out that lawyers would be very unlikely to end up out of pocket. Not being bitter at all, just stating the obvious. Certainly no immature objection to Jenny enlightening other readers.
If the lawyers really didn’t like the current system, surely they would reject it? Apart from anything else it gets them known and gives them valuable experience in adversarial technique.
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if this is reaction to the raoul moat then this island needs to get a grip. the situation over there was rare for england let alone here. furthermore, the article states that officers are presented with a stark life or death choice when someone runs at them with a knife. should they have not had combat training to disarm and/or take down a person who has a knife. plus, were the police not given pepper spray to deter these obviously numerous knife wielding criminals. tasers should be a last, last resort to a situation when a psyco has a gun to his head after gunning down three people. to my knowledge this has happened approximately……………never in jersey, the island which defines safe place to live.
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Rozel, the legal aid system is a business burden to lawyers, especially small advocates’ firms. I can assure you that the principals do indeed end up out of pocket and, further, that the legal aid system acts as a considerable disincentive to those lawyers who want to set upo their own undertaking. This perpetuates the existence of the large firms which tend to charge the highest fees.
It is patronising for you to suggest that the pro bono obligation somehow serves to assist the lawyer in promoting his or her image and professional standing. And your ignorance shows further when you suggest that the system might be changed at the whim of the lawyers. Not only has that been attempted without success (you of course, have not bothered to research that particular point) but it would be rather odd if it could be swept away without independent review, although the human rights law (which has been cited before in the context) might yet prove relevant.
In short, the tenor of your original post was somewhat unpleasant and you subsequent attempt to ameliorate that countenance revealed the depth of your ignorance of the matter as a whole.
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#138 ‘Not only has that been attempted without success…’(Changing the system at the whim of the lawyers).
Thanks for the information. You saved me from the laborious task of having to research it myself. My ignorance of the subject is reducing rapidly.
‘It is patronising for you to suggest that the pro bono obligation somehow serves to assist the lawyer in promoting his or her image and professional standing.’
Well, let’s put it this way, I would not have heard of most of them other than by reading their names in the Police Court reports. I keep well away from them otherwise.
Welcome to the (rapidly swelling) ranks of those of us who are named after local beauty spots.
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Rozel Aubin. Glad to hear that you are recognising that your ignorance (you said it) is now reduced. I guess that that is the value of the forum, although it is also clear that a little prior research is always preferable to making a post where one is not informed as to the subject matter of one’s post.
If you want to know who the advocates and solicitors are, then the various websites (accessible through the Jeresy legal Information Board site) is a good place to start. The judicial greffier will also be able to inform you as to the whereabouts of these respective officers of the court.
Beauty spots are great. Let’s hope that our planning department enable them to stay that way.
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