They’ll be taking our jobs
Saturday 22nd November 2008, 10:00AM GMT.
BUILDERS in Jersey fear that they will be forced out of work if 500 workers are brought to the Island to help build the new Esplanade Quarter.
A group set up recently on social networking site Facebook has attracted nearly 500 members, and many people have left comments on the site claiming that local tradesmen will be laid off if Harcourt Developments is given the go-ahead to develop the site.
Yesterday the developer settled a high court case in Dublin, where three Irish businessmen were claiming to hold some of the development rights to the project.
Last month it was revealed that the Jersey Hospitality Association is asking its members to help find accommodation for Harcourt Developments workers for the next three years, although the States have not yet approved the deal or given the Irish-based firm the contract to develop the £350 million project.
• Picture: A domed winter garden is part of the plan for Esplanade Square
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We are constantly being told to buy local to support the local economy and community so why have the Politicians not come out against what Harcourt are saying about bringing in 500 construction workers?
Is it because Harcourt have said we will only go through with the project if we can bring in our Irish workforce? If that is the case then we in Jersey have to tell Harcourt where to go. They have just paid out in an out of court settlement so they obviously believe they will get the contract!
So Harcourt, go back to Ireland with your workforce, we are NOT a third-world country that will be dictated to by contractors. We don’t want your money and we certainly don’t want a contractor that will not “buy local – support local”
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The local builders should get real – they ask for extortinate hourly rates and quite honestly often their work is not particularly up to standard. Harcourt can chose who they please to build the Esplanade Quarter.
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… and the waterfront disaster train continues at full speed …
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Whatever happened to the special five year license rule for people working over here! Yet again the states are allowing companies to cherry pick at the rules and regulations to suit their own needs.
The price of local tradesmen is high becuse they dont have free housing and allowances in the same way that these importanted workers recieve and the last developer took away most of their regular work which kept them competitive.
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Harcourt or who ever carry out the work should only be allowed to bring in staff that are not available locally. Jersey companies have to contend with high costs, mostly caused by local government,this project should be used along with the hundred million incinerator project to keep the local suppliers and labour force in full employment, where the money earnt will be spent locally not sent away to foreign parts, that way the tax man will get his share to fund further spending.
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I hope they do come over. The price local tradesmen charge is extortionate and it serves them right.
They are far too greedy.
I have just been charged £42 a hour for a mechanic.
Too greedy, I shall not be going back to him.
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Its also about tax and insurance.
While these guys are here they wont be paying local tax or insurance. They will be paid wherever they were employed.
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We need a freeom of information act now.
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I think the Waterfront reflects the quality of our government and their lack understanding of the consequences of their actions.
The reclamation process was started with no long-term objective other than to provide somewhere to dump our non combustible waste and almost as an afterthought provide a much needed car park. Maybe if it had been left at this we would now have a fantastic green area in front of our town and solved our transport and parking problems.
But many millions of pounds later we have a rubble wall in front of what was an extremely beautiful granite harbour with every other structure shoved on as an afterthought and a new harbour not big enough for modern boats.
The whole project has been a disaster with planners and politicians treating this premium location, surround by so much beauty and history, as if it where some out of the way industrial estate.
Please Mr Cohen take a reality check on who the winners and losers will be if your grandiose scheme goes ahead.
For the people of Jersey.
We loose our car park creating hardship especially for the part time workers such as mothers etc. Yes we can be PC and tell them to walk but in the middle of winter when they need to get back to their children at 3:30 this is not an option.
For two to three years Jersey workers will have to put up with major traffic disruption and the resulting degradation of their quality of life as the working day is extended by additional hours spent commuting.
Mass immigration of construction workers at a time of increasing local unemployment and consequently millions of pounds being removed from our economy.
Thousands of square meters of new office space to compete with the many empty buildings we already have.
If properly managed and assuming that the economic models on which it is based are correct we have the prospect of creating thousands of new jobs. But given the apparent incompetence shown in the management of this task to date what assurance have we that these new plans will be handled any better in the future and once these offices and flats are built will we not suffer further immigration in an effort to fill these.
For the developers.
A multi million pound contract working for an government who to date have failed to properly manage any large project and have proved to be no more than a “gravy train” for any aggressive outside developer.
And if things do go pear shaped we are left many millions of pounds poorer and having to spend many further millions on schools, roads, hospital etc to support the surge in our population whilst the developer moves on to their next project.
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Yes we are “told” to support local and while we are on the subject can anybody justify why a widescreen tv at the Jersey electric company is over £1000 pounds yet the same tv ordered online will cost me £649???
Yes im fully aware that its a small island and all the other excuses,however in these supposed more diffucult times one dosent want to give hundreds of pounds away merely to support local.
There should be some price control,consumer protection as the mark up over here is obscene!
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Trevor – £42 per hour is cheap for a mechanic – can I have his number, I’m paying £100 per hour at a well known dealership and I’m sure the mechanics don’t see most of it.
I am a local tradesman and increasingly I’ve seen our share of business on large projects eroded in favour of offshore imported trade.It’s true that it costs more to employ locally because the cost of living is higher in Jersey, that said the money is going to the bosses, not the workers. Ultimately if local people are not employed it’s normal people who suffer. We live in Jersey and spend our money locally, not take it back home. If local people are employed there is a knock on benefit for everyone in the island.
There are far too many people brought into the island to perform work that local people are perfectly capable of doing. The banks especially have a large workforce made up of offshore assignees doing work that local people could do, they appear to have no sucession policy whereby these people train locals to replace them.
Please especially at this time of economic difficulty can we assign work to local people wherever possible, if we don’t it is not only our tradesmen and their families who suffer, the money is not re invested in our economy.
Oh yes and what did happen to the 5 year rule?
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jersey must be one of the last places where you can waltz in and get a job.
Employ locals.
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Why all this complaining about mechanics – a plumber charged me £65 for a 10 minute job last week!
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Economics 101 – So long as the local tradesmen are willing to accept the same wage rate charged by those that would be brought in, Harcourt have no need to bring in their overseas workers.
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the plumber has a van to run, tools to buy as they wear out these days, may pay a rental on his store , and is now a unpaid tax collector plus
paying his social security, bank charges, phone billsand if having a mortgage will not be able to work for less.
what price for his expert knowledge?
the same goes for every tradesman out there.also you get what you pay for..
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The Jerseyman is now a second class citizen. A form of racism exists against locals. It is a pity that the Jerseyman is not black, because then he would be able to do something about his lost status.
Who said that imperialism was dead?
This sort of nonsense would not be tolerated in Scotland.
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You are just taking away the local boys work..don’t let anymore outsiders in please..keep the work for your own guys they deserve it they have families as well most of them and I am sure right now they are struggling like most.
It is hard enough to get work and living quarters, once you let all these people in what is going to happen..I rest my case..
You will only get cheap and shoddy work..
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The Jersey people through the laws passed by the states ghetto-ise all incomers as second class citizens Fork Handles.
Pay taxes but you can’t legally buy a home to live in and bring up your family for 13 years ! Go live in slum accommodation incomer.
Discriminated against in employment for five years. Go work in a bar or some other job us Jersey people think is beneath us.
Not able to vote but thank you very much for the taxes for two years.
And of course if you don’t like it : “there is a boat in the morning” is the universal response.
Ha people were out on the street in numbers after the manager refused entrance to Havana to some overweight women claiming discrimination. The silence is deafening from Jersey people on this much more fundamental and objectionable discrimination.
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Plumbers and mechanics. Yes we all moan, but then what is the charge out rate for an accountant, or an accountant technician, or maybe for the bank to write you a letter. A 20min taxi ride to the airport can be £20 plus, so that makes them £60 an hour at least.
As for the Harcourt 500, where did this figure actually come from? Also, to dig out for a new road and underground parking etc of the proposed size, is big civil engineering works. Do we have many experienced civil engineering contractors in Jersey? This type of work doesn’t need plumbers, electricians, blocklayers, carpenters, plasterers or general labourers.
I think there may be merit in asking local contractors to partner with off island specialist contractors to then tender a price for the works.
And Al, yes, the States of Jersey have an active financial discrimination system in place with non-qualified residents. Apparently human rights issues have been tested against the housing policy and the policy found to be sound. But I do not think the housing policies were tested against financial discrimination issues where residents are taxed, pay social, rates etc as required by law, but do not get equal access to the services and benefits that their money contributes to.
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One cannot understand why incoming people profess to suffer in the Island. Surely if it so bad, one would not stay?
No-one is forcing anyone to come here. In Australia [which is vastly bigger than Jersey and has none of the problems of space], immigrants agree to come in on the government’s terms. I know, because I did it and I had to take lowly jobs and live in poor accommodation. I did not mind because I realised that, if I did not like it, I could leave. People who come here should consider this and stop moaning about their host Island.
I paid taxes and social security in Australia. The taxes are there to pay for medical services, sanitation and other things which benefit the immigrant. The taxes do not confer any right beyond that and certainly do not entitle someone to denigrate the place where they choose to stay.
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Two pretty fundamental principles in most civilised countries:
No taxation without representation.
Freedom of Speech.
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Gordon, In Australia, you were free to rent wherever you choose.. You got the same benfit as anyone else from your taxes, people that come to Jersey to work should be afforded the same rights as any other taxpayer. If the government decides to let these people work in Jersey than the should have the same rights as anyone else… as you had in Australia!
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Gordon – Am I right in assuming that you have to go through a process (point system?) to get into Oz… USa, Canada etc? And when you are allowed through the door, you can rent, buy, have access to all that a native has?
If you study the booklets and flyers offered to people moving to Jersey it is very difficult to determine what the true situation is. I wonder if there was a leaflet saying in plain english (and other languages).
“You are more than welcome to come to Jersey, pay tax and social on your earned income, but please understand in doing so you are not allowed to rent or buy a property unless it meets very specific criteria. You will find that this type accommodtaion is more expensive and of substandard condition. Also, even though you may have very good qualifications, skill set and experience, we will restrict what sort of jobs you can do for 5 years.
Your rent will be inflated and we will tax you on the income you earn and pay on this rent. If anything happens to your accommodation during the 10 or more years you have contributed to Jersey (ie a fire) you will still not have the right to buy or rent in the local market and you will not be entitled for rental subsidy on this high rent either. Also if you are unemployed, and have no money comming in, you still have to pay your social security contributions (as well as your high rents)”
I wonder if this information was made readily available how many people would actually come to Jersey. Perhaps the truth about the system would help keep the population down? Most people learn about this system AFTER they have arrived, but than I guess there is a boat out in the morning…. well maybe.
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Jersey has a stated policy (legislation) of protecting the local workforce with a requirement of 5 years residency. Hence; the whole ‘j cat’ industry as employer grapple with bureaucracy, skill shortages and lack of adequate housing. Meanwhile local house prices go through the roof.
As a local, I have come to accept that over half the population are either immigrants or first generation immigrants. A horror? No. They are in the main pleasant hardworking folk. I suspect a large number of those who complain of immigrants taking their jobs only wish to keep their place on the ‘Jersey Gravy Train’.
The real issue to my mind is Jersey housing policy. We have been attempting to control immigration since 1948 and have failed miserably. Who benefits? The bureaucrats who administer a failed policy and the layers who peddle schemes (legal schemes) that work around the law.
Let’s drop the humbug and be honest for once. If 500 extra workers are really required our political masters will sign the order and create another 500 ‘J cat’. If that were not the case half the population would not be here in the first place.
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‘jersey must be one of the last places where you can waltz in and get a job.
Employ locals.’
Fine – then can all the people from Jersey in the UK please go back home. Your taking our jobs. God you are xenophobic little place.
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If people come to Jersey to live and work then they should accept the accommodation situation – even the local people need to accept that this is not a large country but a small island trying to cope with a growing population. If it was not a growing population then it would be time to feel concerned – Jersey is an excellent place to live.
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squirrel – this leaflet should be handed out to all local people born here also. Everything you said happens to me and i’m 3 generations jersey!!
Yes I can legally buy somewhere to live but can I afford to no! Why? because my rent is so high and i’m taxed til my eyes water!
Why do people think that people who come here to work should be given such a easy ride when local professionals like me are struggling to make ends meet!
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Thank you Ab, I too am Jersey born, with several generations going back and get no special favours at all. I have a family I can barely afford to support and have had to struggle paying private rental for years. It may be slightly easier for Jersey locals but it is by no means easy. I have considered leaving but cannot do it as I love this Island despite its faults (and there are a lot!) – it is my home and I have nowhere else to go when all my family are here! I do understand why immigrants complain but at the same time if Jersey became a ‘free for all’ it would decimate the Island completely – it is just not big enough.
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Divide and Rule; not a bad maxim and it appears to be happening in Jersey; there are two large groups of ‘have nots’ in Jersey and a relatively small group of ‘haves’. One way of keeping control of the lower orders is to set them amongst themselves. In this case qualified and non-qualified (setting aside the ‘I’m all right Jack’ J-cats). Neither of these two groups do much except struggle daily to afford to live and survive in Jersey and dislike each other as one lot can legally live in a much wider range of sub-standard cramped damp housing than the other and the later hate the former for taking ‘Jersey’ jobs. One solution is to use your vote and stop being exploited, or else we will still be bickering when the Waterfront needs a refurb.
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well jackass, what hope of employment will we have for our children?
the uk is the closest place where a person with two jersey born parents can go without a visa or work permit as they do not have the right of abode in europe.
if anyone wants to correct me here feel free.
does that stamp in a localy born persons passport
still exist.
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Dave its a quid pro quo really. If you are allowed to waltz into another country settle down, benefit from the health service and buy a property then you have to reciptocate; Jersey can’t have it both ways; the EU allows a right of establishment which includes allowing nationals of other member states to buy property and benefit from everything a local does (new entrants accepted). You can’t expect the EU to allow automatic right of establishment for Jersey ‘nationals’ if people from those countries do not have the same right here. When I think about it there is an argument to be made for the British Govenrment imposing the same restrictions on jersey ‘nationals’ as well.
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tintin,the whole quallies situation needs a good look at, also the direction this island is taking and where it will end up.
hopefully we will get this right,and we will all prosper.
we are only 9 miles by 5miles
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Very well said, dave brown. It seems to suit incoming people to forget the fact that Jersey is so small and that it cannot accept and support everyone. That is why comparisons with the United Kingdom and other countries is rather silly.
The housing law is a kind of immigration control. It seems to be agreed that it is unsatisfactory. What we need is a proper immigration control, together with an assurance that the “essential employees” are indeed that and that they train local people to do their job when they depart. The latter requirement is seldom observed. Many firms do seem to abuse the system, at the expense of local applicants.
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