Homosexuality: Read the Bible
Thursday 29th January 2009, 2:55PM GMT.
From T Liron.
ON opening the JEP on 17 January I was dismayed to read that a professional person had written to all States Members asking them to consider voting for the bill that covers homosexuality.
I would suggest that all States Members read the Bible first (1 Corinthians 6-9 and 1 Timothy 1-10) to see what the word of God tells us concerning this matter. The Bible tells us all the laws concerning marriage are between a man and a woman.
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St Helier.
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Some of us do not take the Bible as the word of God and we do not accept it as the last word on how society treats people.
States members may vote in accordance with their conscience but they also have to consider the fact that they are legislating for a diverse and pluralist island.
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If we relied on the bible to give us guidance on our laws we would still be giving the death penalty to any child being disrespectful to their parents.
While our laws ae loosley based on the 10 commandments, the penalties for breaking them is usually death.
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First,
There is no evidence – At All to suggest anything from the quoted ‘Novel’ actually exists or has existed. This is a book that was wrote 2000 years ago and has no relevance in today’s society.
Second
God has never told us anything. And never will.
Third
Everyone IS equal regardless of what the Church says.
Finally
We don’t want gay marriage anyway. A Civil Partnership is in fact different.
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The Bible? A book written to make people toe the line by fear! May have worked 2000 years ago but not now.
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how homphobic of you.
the bible is not the ruling book for everyone in the world thanks.
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What a good idea to base our laws on the bible!
When will be allowed to keep slaves as we are told in that book how we should care for them?
I would be able to sacrifice my son and sell my daughter, if I had any.
How about Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT where we are told,-
”
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.”
Any more examples?
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This is a typical homophobic view deliberately sent in for publication to create upset. Just ignore it.
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I do hope that Mr Liron puts forward to the States that all women who do not offer a lamb for burnt-offering as an act of Purification, after Childbirth after her days unclean through loss of blood, not be permitted back into the Lords house? Leviticus 12
Lets not pick and choose the sections we want to read – all or nothing, it’s only fair . . . .
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Oh no not another bible believers versus non believers thread. Dont people realise we were put on this earth by a bunch of aliens from another planet many years ago, at least thats what my guru Tom told me.
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I read the bible many years ago its ok, 2000 years ago it porberly had more impact like when The matrix came out for the first time.
Anyway I also read another book called Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, it is written by L. Ron Hubbard, in the book he classified homosexuality as an illness or sexual perversion, citing contemporary psychiatric and psychological textbooks to support his view.
He is also the founder of Scientology, One of the major tenets of Scientology is a belief that each human is inhabited by alien spirits…ect and, it is a basic belief of Scientology that a human being is actually an immortal spiritual being, termed a thetan, that is presently trapped on planet Earth in a “meat body
Both Christianity and Scientology have a lot in common, people have taken a novel as absolute truth and the rest is history.
Luckly the majority of people are able to differentiate between science fiction and reality.
So when someone suggests that we should make same sex marriage ilegal based on a quote in a book is similair to suggesting that we should all learn klingon so we can understand what the klingon’s say in Star Trek without subtitles.
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Thanks Born again atheist….at least now I can now say that I agree with the bible on two counts.
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We have a Christian Taliban in Jersey, fundamentalists have no place in government.
Yes I may covet my neighbours ass, worship an idol and have sex before marriage.
Religion is a personal thing, will monotheism ever stop persecuting humanity.
In the bible the Israelites committed what we might call genocide today and killed women and children because it was gods will.
Christians later did the same, don’t use the bible to justify your own prejudices or fears the bible has done more harm than two people alone in a room could ever could.
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Utter rubbish
Thankfully he speaks for the tiny minority of people that still follow the fairy stories spouted in the bible.
Mr Liron, nobody cares one iota for your opinion, nor for your silly book, which could be put to better use stoking the fire.
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I presume Mr. Liron has a long beard as bible also says not to shave, or does Mr. Liron just pick the bits from the bible that he wishes to follow and ignore other parts.
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the law for civil partnerships must be adopted.
as a we are not in line with other foreword looking countries.
it is the 21st century.
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The Bible also teaches tolerance, and asks you to love your neighbour/brother.
No Mr Liron, you cannot ‘cherry-pick’ from the good book, but rather take it in in it’s overall context. If people are not doing you or indeed anyone else harm, do the Christian thing and let them be who they are and what they are.
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There’s a lot of Christian/Bible vs Athiest bashing going on here. I like Mr Liron am a committed Christian and I do not agree with ‘gay marriage’ per se, as I believe ‘marriage’ is between a man and a woman only. However I do agree that Civil Partnerships should be allowed, so that partners in same sex relationships can have the same legal rights as married couples.
Lets get away from the religion bashing, it is everyone’s right to choose whether they wish to believe or not.
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Katie, St Helier,
I am an atheist, I respect everyone’s beliefs.
However you should not be able to apply your beliefs to others.
If you were stopped from practising Christianity by Atheist or Muslim governments in a place you were born I would fight for your right to worship in any way you wanted.
We do not need a Christian Taliban policing the way we live in Jersey.
Love is the only way.
No judging just accepting the richness of our society.
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I don’t think people have to be religious to have a go at homosexuals. It is still a taboo in the minds of many people.
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Has anyone ever heard of the saying “Dont believe everything that you read” The bible is a myth and nothing more. You can believe in it if you wish to but in my eyes it is a load of rubbish and should not be considered as rules of your life. If we all followed the bible we would be nothing more than boring old people.
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As long as its between consenting adults, its done in private behind closed doors, so long as I am not forced by law to accept it in my house , so long as I and my family don’t have to do it. I will accept it.
Let them go ahead and worship who and what they want
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It’s incredible that any sane individual actually believes this rubbish.
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Medical studies have shown that homosexuality is more damaging to the body than alcoholism. I would have thought the States would be doing all it could to discourage the practice.
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I trust these Bible fans (in its meaning of fanatic) don’t wear mixed garment clothes either:Leviticus – “neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee” – or are they taking the usual Pick’N'mix approach to their collection of fables as normal? it’s 2009!
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What exactly is Mr Liron’s point about a “professional” person writing to the States – I wasn’t aware homosexuality was class specific.
Its no wonder church attendances have fallen so sharply
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People can trot out the Old Testament all they want but it’s an extremely tired old argument and just shows people’s ignorance of what a Christian actually is. Christians follow Christ (you know, the guy in the New Testament that showed tolerance and love, was kind to prostitutes when others weren’t etc etc). If they don’t they are simply not Christians, no matter what they claim!
People have every right to disagree with homosexuality (plenty of non-religious people do also, some scientists view it as going against their understanding of nature, species survival…) but Christians cannot harm or disrespect someone for any reason.
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Phobia from the Greek ‘phobos’ meaning ‘fear’ (although originally ‘flight’ I think). I don’t know anyone that ‘fears’ homosexuals.
Homophobia is a stupid word and it needs removed from society.
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Mike R, church attendance has only fallen in the ‘established Church’. Churches that don’t continually bend to society are actually growing. But those Churches follow Christ’s example and teach love and tolerance.
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Whilst Mr Liron is no doubt correct in his reading of what the bible says about marriage being between men and women (and quite frankly I cannot be bothered to check), I am a little uncertain as to what exactly his point is.
The bible is rather a long book and is full of all sorts of interesting little tit bits and I am sure we will soon be quoted Leviticus and all about homosexuality being an abomination.
However if Mr Liron is not advocating that we stone to death all those who fall foul of biblical utterances, then quoting the actual prohibition is fatuous as he is then starting to pick and mix to suit our modern sensibilities.
Taking Mr Liron’s argument to its logical (?) conclusion the bible is silent on the need for legislation concerning on-street parking. Now this might be seen as a little obscure however I am sure that living in cities as the early Israelites did (once they had massacred the previous inhabitants which was ok). I am sure they had traffic issues to be dealt with; ‘no knives on chariot wheels within the city limits during the hours of darkness’ sort of thing.
Does any of this appear in the bible? No it quite patently does not; so is there a biblical prohibition by virtue of omission on the use of wheel clamps by private contractors? Or is it the case that by not mentioning wheel clampers god thinks they are cool and can charge what they like?
We either take the bible literally in all respects or we interpret it to suit our own needs, in which case it is guidance and no more.
What we use is down to the people to decide in our rather imperfect democracy if he wants to know what the rules to live by are then I suggest he toddles off to the library and spends many a happy hour wading through Jersey legislation. It would then be noted that the bible is to be found under ‘world religions’ and not ‘law’ bit of a clue there I think.
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alexa…i like your style. Say it like it is sister!!!
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Everyone has a right to their own opinions and beliefs, thats a fact.
If you want to beleive and follow the Bible go ahead, but don’t push your religion onto others. Jersey needs to come into the 21st Centuary and follow the other Countries that have Civil Partnerships. If people of the same sex want to show their love for each other then why not?? It has got nothing to do with anybody else, and not hurting anyone. Why should Jersey born residents have to leave the Island to marry else where, to then draw up addition paperwork in Jersey to reflect their marriage?? do you realise the extra cost to do this?? For hetrosexuals that are married and do not believe in Civil Partnership for same sex individuals, then take a minute to think of how you would feel if you were never aloud to marry the person you are in love with…???
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In response to “Katie, St Helier’s” comments on 1st Feb I feel that I should in some way apologise for my earlier comment.
Yes I feel strongly for Civil Partnerships (as I am Civil Partnered) and I do feel strongly against Religion of any kind. However as Katie pointed out – we should all have the choice to believe in any religion we wish just as we should have the right to live in the way which we wish.
if everyone was able to get on regardless of religion or sexuality the world would be a MUCH happier place.
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religion and legislation mix like oil and water.
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As it has already been stated above – Who has the right to dictate what other should and shouldn’t do? (and no i’m not talking hypothetically about God) If I said that a giant monkey in the sky told me that everyone should be painted purple on Tuesdays in order to prevent it from being angry, would you be very happy for me to force my views on you? I didn’t think so! Everyone is entitled to their own views and religions, but should keep it to themselves, after all, isn’t that what most wars are based on?
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Love is genderless.
I’m just glad that my soulmate and I were born as different sexes otherwise we’d have had all the extra hassle of a civil partnership too. Hopefully it won’t be too much longer before the archaic laws are updated.
Homosexuality may, or may not, be considered natural, as there is a train of thought that it’s Mother Natures way of keeping our overpopulation under control. However, gays are not harming anyone else so how about directing your wrath at a group that does deserve it, such as drug dealers or paedophiles.
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Leah Holmes,
You are the best, I respect your views and opinions because they are just that, they are yours, they come from your inner being and they are love.
This is what Christianity should be, trust your heart accept and love everyone.
This is what all religion should be.
We are all made perfectly well the way we are existence does not make mistakes.
Thank you.
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Yer, what a load of Homophobic nonsense.
The bible is an old book of fairy tales isnt it?
And people moan about Jehovah Witnesses pushing their religion with door knocking. At least we decide if they get in our homes….unlike T Lirons letter.
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Unfortunately we are all guilty of intolerance. That includes homosexuals. I have been verbally and physically abused by homosexuals for entering one of ‘their clubs’ (that was how it was put to me, even though I was simply accompanyng a homosexual friend). Attacking religion, abusing religion and equating someone else’s beliefs to fairy tales shows no more tolerance than the views given in the original letter!
Even those of us who think we are tolerant if we truly searched ourselves would find we had intolerance somewhere within us.
If you disagree with the views of the person that wrote the letter then surely it is best to show it without displaying a different type of intolerance yourself?
And please note that to criticise and abuse Christians and Christianity when it is clear from what you’ve written that you do not even know what a Christian is must surely be considered intolerance.
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the future, thanks. I’m just trying to work on my own intolerances.
This kind of topic always ends up with people just abusing religion and religious people while showing ignorance and intolerance of religion the same way they accuse others of being intolerant.
I’m not religious but the hypocrisy gets me every time. The best people I know on this earth are true Christians (my parents being top of my list of amazingly loving, forgiving people) and they follow Christ’s example and they would never show the lack of tolerance shown by so many on here. Whether you believe the Bible or not no harm can come from trying to love people as Christians believe Jesus did.
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Tobias, well said.
I’m not for homosexual ‘marriage’ as I simply don’t believe that changes in society necessarily mean that we should change words with specific meanings (I like the history of language and all that and don’t like it being ‘hijacked’). I don’t, however, have any issue with homosexuals having a legal partnership that has another name but gives them the same legal rights as marriage, as long as they also then have to get divorced when they separate (true equality and all that).
Civil partnerships should not be easier to end than marriages.
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Let them Wed, how many straight people bother to marry nowadays anyhow?
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Leah,
you have waaaaaaaaaaay too much time on your hands.
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What a load of nonsense from someone scared of there own mortality and self importance. The only reason faith and religion exist is due to the fact that people are scared of the fact that this is it! They need the belief that there is more to life than the getting up, working, retiring (if you get old enough) then passing on. Oh and in the great scheme of things, being forgotten.
Imagine heaven where everyone you love, everything you want is there on tap for eternity, sounds like hell to me as apparently most of things enjoyable are wrong (in biblical terms). You best hope all your loved ones have the same vision of heaven as you or it won’t be their heaven and therefore you’ll be alone…
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Back to the issue… the only thing that should be banned is religion as I cannot think of one thing it does that is useful in the world.
Before you start going on about charity and helping others, we wouldn’t need most of this if it were not for religion which over the years has caused most of what is wrong with society and shaped the development of the current modern world.
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The fact that a person regards another person’s taste in reading material as a fairy tale does not mean that that person is intolerant. It is just an opinion.
The fact that one person rubbishes another’s beliefs does not make that person intolerant either.
I am entitled to believe that rocks talk to me. You are entitled to consider the concept a load of rubbish and indeed to promote a theory to disprove my talking rock theory. That doesn’t make you intolerant. It is by challenging ourselves and our understanding of the world that human kind has come so far.
Love, tolerance and kindness is not a christian concept and can be shown by those who have no interest in your chosen club.
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Reg – I’m not sure your last comment got back to the point, which was about homosexuality surely? But anyway I would challenge that religion does nothing – not being religious myself I can acknowledge that for many individuals their religion provides a great solace, particularly to those who are poor and suffering. There are other religions than the Abrahamic ones – Buddhism, Taoism etc are reflective, thoughtful and seemingly peaceful. So saying I think Mr Lirons religion is of the bigotted, small minded variety.
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If the bible is so correct then how come there are so many different religions? Simple question and I think the answer is in the question.
If god created adam and eve then where was the garden of eden he put them in and what colour/race were they. If that is true then why arent we all the same colour/race.
Is T Liron even a real person as i dont see any posts defending himself. Maybe he is the new….oh no better not go there!
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If you want to be brainwashed and deluded: Read the Bible!
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Bergerac… unfortunately not, it’s called avoiding study!
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What a load of rubbish, it is so easy to quote the bible to suit your own arguments I know people who just so happen to be gay and they are in long term loving relationships – perhaps if you believe in running your life according to everything that the bible said you should consider this God is Love. Instead of all the hate in the world today, is it not better to declare your desire to commit to a person in a long term loving relationship a marriage is if nothing else a public declaration of a couples intention to live their life together for the rest of their days.
If Man is created in Gods own image God must be gay too!
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There are a number of serious negative health effects associated with being an active homosexual. I would have thought the States would be doing all it could to discourage the practice.
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You know, we should let people live the lives they want to so lets let Jersey have civil partnerships and let people get on with their lives, we should not judge them especially here in Jersey where divorce rates are amongstthe highest in the civilised world!
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Mike R
A small correction, Buddhism is not a religion. There are no ‘gods’ associated with Buddhism. It would be more correct to consider it a philosophy.
A damn fine one too.
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Does the christian god have a gender anyway?
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Dolans – Active heterosexuality has its downside too, after several years you are likely to find yourself with a spouse and kids, not to mention a mortgage. All this has played hell with my social life.
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I can not believe that this was an actual letter – more like some kids who hold a grudge thought this would be a good way to get someone back? Dolans – there is no more risk to your health being gay or straight – unless you are referring to the aids outbreak in homosexuals but think of it this way – many young girls don’t use protection and get STIs as well as risk of pregnancy – the only real reason why homosexuals are more at risk is because today people only really worry about pregnancy not the STIs you can get.
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Perhaps Dolan can explain what these serious health issues are. (50)
And can I assume, that as there can also be serious health issues passed between couples who practise hetrosexual sex, will he be suggesting that that is discouraged too?
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Without listing a selection of sexual practices, which would probably be censored anyway, I think it is fair to point out that both homosexuals and heterosexuals engage in sexual practices that can be harmful to their health.
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Hetrosexuals have had things their own way for a long time, and have forgoten that other people (gays)exist and we have or should have the same fundemental rights as they do.
And where in the bible does say that I am less of a person than you, I have the same hopes, fears ambitions, as you I bleed when I am cut and I laugh when I am happy and no one can take that from me, so stick that in your pipe Mr T.Liron I am not going anywhere because I have the right to be who I am.
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Leah – I think the “phobia” part of homophobia is perhaps due to the sheer terror instilled in young straight men at the mere mention of the subject (perhaps scared they might like it!)
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Sam (49) – of course God is not gay!
He had a son!
(though maybe he swings both ways!)
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Homosexuality and serious health issues; interesting but let’s work with this and see where it goes. The SOJ could quite rightly take this as a serious public health issue and perhaps their chief doctor could get involved as has been done with alcohol and cigarettes (not chucking homosexuality in as a lifestyle choice)
Anyway perhaps the CMO could put homosexuality back under the counter (or closet) just like the old cigarette is going to be; out of sight and out of mind.
Now perhaps condoms could come with a government health warning; to be used for safe sex, but not if you are Gay which is obviously unsafe (apparently) but even more unsafe when you don’t use a condom. Maybe we should only have access to so many units of homosexuality a week a little like drinking alcohol.
That way we could have safe ‘unsafe sex’. But the final injunction from the SOJ could be the Wrath of God because as we know god hates homosexuals because it says so in the bible.
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Leah Holmes: …but Christians cannot harm or disrespect someone for any reason
Really?? Then in your eyes, that makes many a pope non-christian. Popes have sent many an army to war for the sake of wealth and land. Think Latin America.
Waiting for the incoming…
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Health risks for women increase the younger they start having sex and the more partners they have… I don’t see anyone making any serious steps towards encouraging girls to wait till they are older to have sex or to discourage them from having lots of partners so why pick on homosexuals.
The health risks involved in homosexual sex are also there for any heterosexuals that take part in a specific sexual practice that I won’t mention on here.
Why, instead of getting upset about what homosexuals get up to in their own lives, don’t we spend time teaching our children (hetero or homosexual) to have the utmost respect for their own bodies, and to understand that earlier sexual practice does involve more serious potential health risks (physical and mental). It might seem ‘hard’ for a kid to wait till they are older but they have decades to have sex, they only have one time to lose their virginity (and most that lose it before their 20s seriously regret how it happened and who it was with).
Sam and BAA I always took ‘man’ in the sense of ‘man being made in God’s own image’ as ‘mankind’, not specifically man, most of the Christians I know do too. Don’t know if that answers your questions any?
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At its’ very basics no right thinking person can argue that if everyone followed the simple 10 rules that were set out as ‘commandments’, then we would be safer, healthier and less confrontational. The laws of all democracies are extended from these same 10; those who lead the world, or, at least their part of it, into wars and difficulties, invariable choose to ignore some or all of these 10. If a belief is worth anything then it is worth being adhered to and now watered down simply to appease or win popularity.
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I don’t quite understand all this. I do understand the Bible and believe that much of it is based on accurate pieces of history, which many religions share.
The part I don’t understand is how these so-called religious people can damn any particular human beings. I might be mistaken here, but I don’t think that those amongst us who are homosexual chose this path for themselves, any more than I chose to be born a female. It’s not like you would be gay for the hell of it, just to see what abuse you could get!
And in an age were we are sacked for praying, forbidden to bring our children up as Christians and asked to change ‘Christmas’ to ‘Holidays’, how dare they try to tell us how to live. As has been said, it’s cherry-picking the Bible.
I no longer class myself as a ‘christian’, but I do believe in God – a God of love and forgiveness and tolerance. After all Mr Liron, if you truly believe God is good, that God made us all, and that God is incapable of making a mistake, then you have your answer. In your beliefs, not in a series of stories handed down to humans to write out.
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