J-cat crackdown
Saturday 14th February 2009, 10:00AM GMT.
A CRACKDOWN on new J-category housing consents has been launched by Housing Minister Terry Le Main in a bid to protect local jobs and keep house prices under control during the recession.
And he has given a clear warning to employers that virtually no applications will be approved for staff members who are already living and working in Jersey, no matter how important they are to a business. Senator Le Main has also made it clear that the States sector will not escape the crackdown either.
He said that all employers had a responsibility to train Islanders to take up new jobs rather than looking to bring in people from overseas to do jobs that people already living here could do.
The Housing Minister (pictured) said that he had refused a large number of applications for essential-employee status in recent times and added that he intended to continue to do so. In many cases, of those he has approved, he has only granted consent for the employee to lease an apartment for two or three years rather than allowing them to buy a house and stay for five or ten years.
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Nice but late!!
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Unbelievable. British jobs for British workers anyone ? Nice to see Jersey open for business as usual. I feel for those young people who have been working in Jersey for a couple of years, paying tax, and who are now deprived of the opportunity to lay down some roots and make Jersey their permanent home.
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What about the unlimited J Cats ( by unlimited I mean it has no experiation date )granted to bank staff sourced from the UK, will these now be revoked?
I have seen people brought over on J Cats who have lived in bank accommodation for 10 years before reaching full qualification ( 10 years remember on a J Cat for full quals ) and then buying their own house, presumably with the money they saved whilst in bank accommodation.
Even worse I know of one person who whilst in bank accommodation bought a house and renovated it and sold at a significant profit without ever having lived in it, is this right?
Will the banks now adopt a sucession policy whereby incoming staff remain only for a 3 year period and during that time train a local person as permanant replacement, the banks have been getting away with this for too long.
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well done terry, a step in the right direction.
you are still a representive of the ordinary working person in jersey.
both localy born and people who have been here for years, who will have children leaving school soon and joining the limited job market.
i hope you will gain support in the house for all you are trying to do for the good of the people.
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Dear Terry, If you worked in Jersey you would soon realize that your lovely housing policy is a mess. A simple test for you, or your Jersey based civil servants; just who all the ‘j’ category permits currently in force, broken down by industry, including other States Departments?
When you next visit Jersey and look at the results of your inquires I thing you will looking for a door, long after the said ‘horses’ have taken up residence in the paddock. Not only will that, but we locals be running around seeking finance for the maintenance of the paddock.
So Terry, when you are next on terra firma take a long hard look at your housing department.
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Well done.
Better late than never.
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one can only agree with all of the above!
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Welll, its nice to think that we ‘J’ cats are appreciated !! We are good enuf to employ while the going is good but once the ship starts sinking, we get a kick out the door. Thanx.
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Excellent but long overdue. I know several accountants who are currently unemployed yet the finance industry seems to get unlimited J’s for accountants. They should be stopped immediately and fixed term J’s should not be extended until the unemployment situation eases. The five year rule should also be enforced throughout the finance industry.
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thank you Terry hopefully these kind of decisions can continue
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I hope this does not apply to medical staff and nurses, Jersey needs all the medical expertise it can get and there are not enough trained locals nurses. I think Mr Le Main is making another wrong decision by penalising those in healthcare.
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If only this had happen earlier,
hang on did they not promise this some 20-30 years ago?
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I think the Germans said “untermenchen.” Jersey folk say unqualified or J cat.
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Having lived in the island for 7 years, paying taxes and no Qualies etc etc. (I have now moved back to the UK) It is all very one sided! Why should people who come to live,work and contribute to your Island be discriminated against?
After all you want to come over to the UK to use our hospitals, our universities and then take our jobs buy our houses therefore making prices rise so that it becomes harder for our people to buy and get the jobs. UK people for UK jobs. Maybe you should make the Island more self sufficient so you don’t need to use our facilities! It should work both ways. Then we would see how Jersey people feel when the table is turned!
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Unemployed accountants ?? That’s odd….I see several posts for accountants that are not yet filled. How can that be ?? Me thinks the Jersey people are a tad too fussy. They’re quite happy for the J cats to work in their shops and pick their veges, jobs they don’t want.
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And for all you Jersey people who buy houses in the UK, work there, go to university there and buy property there, why don’t you practice what you preach and leave the jobs, schooling and property to those that live and were born there?? Sorry forgot, double standards are rife in Jersey, do as I say not as I do rules!!!
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I’m very sad to see such support for what appears to be a chaotic method of dealing with the financial climate. It seems that the majority of the posters agree that J Cat are the scurge of Jersey. Unfortunately this really is not the case and perhaps before we all start painting red J’s above the doors of all those workers we should consider the following:
Why are the banks employing J Cats? There may be a feeling that there are available staff from the local market and if that is true, and I’m not sure how we could accurately ascertain that, why would banks actively seek to go outside the island. Surely this is far more inconvenient and time consuming that employing locally. So perhaps the generally ‘feeling’ is incorrect.
How does restricting a business’s ability to employ the staff it needs to function and hopefully grow enable it to survive? Surely if you undermine a company’s ability to employ the staff necessary then the viability of that company is at risk, including the employment of its staff, the vast majority, in all likelihood, will be local.
J cats are not all bankers. What about doctors, teachers and other employment. J cats in most circumstances are people who have reached a certain level within their career, brought in for their expertise, knowledge and life experience. Should we expect them to give up their lives and uproot their children and partners for a few years. Of course not, you all say, they don’t have to come, – well perhaps in future they won’t. Have we considered the consequences? Would you like continuity of care with your local doctor, would you like stability in your child’s school?
Although there are many people who are already here on J’s some likely to have been here for five years and therefore able to hold their post without a J has anyone considered where they will now live? Is there enough unqualified housing available or will these people simply have to return to whence they came? Will this undermine local business if they suddenly start losing integral staff members?
There is a wish for locals to be trained and I believe in that but how do smaller companies fund this? How do you concurrently employ one person qualified to do the job and at the same time train another? Do you employ two members of staff, one which is shadowing the other? If you require a person with 20 years’ experience what do you do whilst you wait for your protege to get there? You can of course poach staff from somewhere else on island but surely there is a finite number of chair jumping possible before sooner or later there is no-one left to fill the void.
I’m not qualified or studied enough to have the answer but my personal belief is that the J cat/Housing Quals are flawed and neither Jersey or the J’s are adequately protected under this system. I believe a fairer more appropriate system would be to follow the stance taken in places such as Australia/New Zealand and then at least everyone would know where it stands.
Just my opinion!
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Dear Trish (8), you have got it wrong, we are happy to see you if you are essentially employed, but many are not essentially. Dave (9) makes a very good point which underpins the nonsense of housing policy; when ‘j cats’ are granted the responsible Minister has no idea as to the availability of local talent. If we have a surplus of accountants, all employers seeking a renewal of a ‘j cat’ for an accountant it should be turned down. I know for a fact that the States of Jersey are amongst those that flout their own regulations.
As for Mr Facts I have sympathy for his wish to put down roots, but if that was the case when he accepted a five year contract, he made an awful mistake.
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Will the Ministers apply this J-cat rules to those expensive architects they employ and ridiculous building idea-people not to mention the amount of scrutiny people from the UK that they employ.
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Yet again populist policies promulgated by politicians devoid of any ideas picking on the easiest target ‘the J cat’. This is divisive and pathetic and yet again a State is picking on a minority in order to deflect attention from its own failings, and no I am not a J cat!
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Problem is many employers actively look out of the island straight off. I know of at least one major finance employer who advertises across their entire group in preference to local external advertisement this is particularly acute for senior roles where the J cats tend to exist. You then get competition for a role in Jersey which is very attractive to many from the UK parent. Often appointments are made by onshore divisions with little thought to the local market, and preference to “their man”. Sadly Jersey has lost control of this market. I feel for people but its the employers who have brought this about.
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Unfortunately, I think Terry’s comments are mainly to appease the electorate. Firms with clout – lawyers, accountants, private equity fund administrators etc will get/renew J’s on demand.
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All the posts seem to miss one thing. Not all J cats are in the banking sector. What about doctors, nurses, teachers etc. You can’t just pull a local off the street and ask a doctor to “train” them to do their job. There is a question of 5 years at university first.
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What a slap in the face for those loyal J-cat people who contribted to the island economy and still contribute surely they deserve appreciation and not ‘take the next boat home’.
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Yes, it’s okay for Jersey people to take up work elsewhere but they don’t want the reverse ! If professional vacancies existed 6 months to a year ago and were unable to be filled by locals, then how can they be filled by local folk now ? We come from a country where job descrimination has been implemented and believe me, it does not work !! This has caused turmoil in it’s economy. Jersey is just calling it another name. Are they expecting all the J cats to end up camping in Howard Davis Park ?
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Oh and by the way, Terry…can we hold on to our taxes seeing you dont want our contribution to your exclusive economy ?
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It is very sad, what is going one in jersey, the island i love, and is one my thougts all times, i was the one that I have paid substantial amount of money in tax, and i had to live at one very small bedroom for almost 8 years and being exploited by greedy landlords. But even so i love jersey very much, doing island tours, driving around jersey and its beauties.
So I hope you don’t go down the road with policies such as British jobs for Brittish workers because you will be doing a big mistake. And then when the economy picks up? As you know you can’t be independent from europe, and if the offshores came to an end, then what will be, you can´t treat foreigner as you please, they must be respected as they are genuine contributors to the island economy, in good times and bad times.
Good bless jersey and its people, a place where i was very happy.
Thank you
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When will Jersey join the UK?
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Don’t forget he’s up for re-election in 2011! Don’t also forget that this is the man that allowed the States Housing to fall into such disrepair that it’s now going to cost the taxpayer a mint to bring it back into liveable condition! This is also the man that wanted to bring the housing qualifying period down to keep the housing market fluid! He clearly doesn’t know whether he’s coming or going!
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Lets just bring in work permits
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a very short sighted move from an extremely inept politician. It is a very ‘jersey’ approach to dealing with problems. I think Terry Le Main and his closed minded approach to solving jersey’s ills is what Jersey deserves. Jersey is a sinking ship and I don’t think it could have happened to a nicer place…… Le Main and Jersey, you deserve each other…
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I am local and accept that we need J Cat “essentially” employed people were there is a gap that we cannot fill with people with 5 years residency.
My belief is that the system is being abused as one of the requirements of these J Cat positions is that training is provided so that in 2-3 years time a residentially qualified person can take up the role. This does not happen to the level it should and so there must be a stronger control of the system.
A simple rule like a J Cat is given for a time period that would be required to train a resident and cannot be renewed once that time has expired(longer for specialist positions like surgeons etc).
A company/institution cannot apply for additional J Cats unless they have fulfilled the requirements of ones they already have had.
All J Cat licenses not issued in the last 5 years should be revoked and if necessary re-applied for under a more stringent regime.
So if the system is run fairly and properly I cannot see how locally qualified residents would be able to complain and the J Cats will know that their “badge” is one of acceptance and not to be attacked as it is at present
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Is this the same Terry Le Main that said about two months ago he was going to relax the 12 year qualification rule to stimulate teh housining market?
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Keep housing prices under control during the recession…………are you having a laugh……….”under control”………a “normal” nothing fancy 3 bed house has risen in recent years from @ £300k to @ £500k, and within 12 mths from 2007 to 2008 a 25 % increase – from any perspective totally ridiculous and driven by greed – mainly from Estate agents driving the prices, by over valuations as they of course got larger %’s from sales, and you can’t blame the sellers by going along with what they were getting told their poroperty was valued at – and making a massive profit. It’s about time property prices were brought back to reality. And to hear within the last week as reported by the JEP that house prices have “slumped” by an average of £28k – that is laughable – more than a slump is required after that ridiculous massive increase in recent times. So when there is a small much needed decrease in house prices to enable folk to be able to purchase a property, we all of a sudden have all this reported panicking “We need to keep house prices under control”……….where was the control when the prices were rocketing well out of control??????????. You will always have the odd exception, however people will only ever be willing or able to afford a certain price property, Jersey house prices have gone well above that. My sitaution for example: a couple earning @ 80k+, and to buy a “normal” 3 bed house would criple us with approx 3k a month mortgage, without any bills / other expenses, and child care fees of approx 1k a month. Do the maths and then work out, who exactly can afford highly infalted house prices. And as for the main topic – Foxy lady (14) and others like minded – well said!!!
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In general Jersey housing policy is crap..
I can understand all categories, protecting Jersey heritage, etc.. when it comes to buying a property.. but renting ?
You can keep pigs in your A-H or J cat houses but you cannot rent it.. Hey Jersey people! Do you really think that it is good for you ? If so I’m not surprised that employers are searching for qualified workforce out of the island..
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First off i would like to comment on the number of people here who have used the example of Health and Education (university) to try to highlight the apparent hypocritical stance of some Jersey folk, The Island pays for this Jersey students pay full whack to go to university in the UK and the Island also pays for medical treatment for islanders in the UK. That out of the way, most islanders dont object to J cat’s working here, but there are many cases of this being abused for the benefit of companies. Let’s not forget that many J cats are here under contract knowing that they are here on a limited time basis. All that I as a Jerseyman ask is that we make sure that we dont import staff at the expense of people living in the Island be they Jersey born or living here for a long time.
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charles – you’ll find that true jersey locals can’t work anywhere in the EU…
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The system is certainly abused. Many jobs that are allocated J’s are not essential and where the jobs are essential, the employers do not always attempt to get local staff.
I heard of one case when and employer in the finance industry had headhunted a ‘dream team’ the first person in the team was local, the second wasn’t. The firm employed a recruitment consultant to identify an applicant for the second job as a formality to prove to housing that they had tried to recruit locally, but all CV’s from suitable local applicants were binned
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Loads of hearsay. Companies like a continuity hence the reason why many J cats stay longer than 5 years. Also in a free and liquid market people change jobs. Companies train people just to see them move on to better paid jobs in many cases.
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Charles, have to agree with Iulu, I can’t work in Europe as like a few thousand locals with all our grandparents being from the island we have a nice little comment in the back of our passport preventing us from living and working in the EU. Meanwhile we watch our population skyrocket and our island being ruined. Us few thousand locals are discriminated against so people coming in to the island should be also.
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t le main did not let the housing stock fall into disrepair.
housing had no money to maintain its property, due to rents been paid going into private sector landlords pockets in the form of rent rebate.
when first started rent rebate cost £250, 000 a year.
at the last count i think it ran to 2.5 million
i may be wrong here , but its a ballpark figure.
those people who think terry lost millions at le squez.
think of this customers from the states tenants
pool had to be found , before work could commence, yes deposits were taken as would any sound business.
and house prices spiraled during the construction. due to greed and the will to make a fast buck( rob my neighbour i call it).
housing could not up the price as i belive the deposit had been taken, so the price had to stand, the loss was small fish compared to other departments bills.
and local people got a affordable home at long last.
i do not want to see any one booted out, but we must train from within the island and give young people a chance and a worthwhile future.
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I think the time has come for Jersey to nail its colours to the Mast and have a viable immigration policy rather than a more stealthy one based on housing. Otherwise richer corporations such as banks will simply purchase their own accommodation for their employees while workers for less well off employees will find themselves frozen out.
This policy should be on the basis of economic need and not on the basis of nationality however it should also require locally qualified islanders to be considered first for any job.
If the resources are in place to train a local for a job an employer should be encouraged to give that option serious consideration before bringing in a non resident.
I say this as someone who was born in England and I would happily compete with Jersey born people on this basis.
For those positions for which we cannot train locals e.g surgeons I propose that such people be awarded essential worker status on an individual basis and be given permission to lease one property in the island for as long as they are awarded such status, this being subject to an annual review.
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Having been a J cat nurse I moved from jersey 3 months agoto move to Canada where I am appreciated and can stay permanently.I spent 4 years training then a further 8 years gaining additional qualifications prior to moving to Jersey 7 years ago.With the speed that local people are being trained as nurses at the General and that there is also a huge shortage of nurses at the moment-don’t you think that we are essential-or is it ok for us to uproot our families to come to work in Jersey and then boot us out when you’ve finished with us
perhaps that why Jersey is no longer attracting the nursing staff you need-they also don’t get paid the high salaries and live in low priced rental housing like finance j cats.By all means protect local people,just think long and hard what you’re doing
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After watching the film ‘This is England’ last night I couldn’t help but notice that the sentiments portrayed by the skinheads about foreigners coming to England in the 80’s were very similar to the attitudes of a lot of Jersey people that have posted on this website. However one of the main differences was that the skinheads ‘claimed’ to have no problem with people coming to their country as long as they worked and paid their way…. Now this is interesting as Jersey not only concurs with the skinheads views on immigrants but goes a whole lot further by making it very difficult for immigrants to survive by forcing them to live in second rate accommodation for 12 years and not obtain a full time job for 5 years, whilst paying the same taxes as ‘locals’.
It is a very dangerous path that your politicians are taking, and it seems that the attitude of local ‘beans’ in supporting them goes a long way to showing up how truly closed minded Jersey has become…… It is sad to see that an Island with such a diverse population and so much potential can become so bitter and it is extremely worrying to see the similarities between the attitudes portrayed in ‘This is England’ and those displayed on ‘This is Jersey’.
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No.44 – Not quite sure what you mean when you say people cannot obtain a fulltime job for 5 years – according to the 5 year rule newcomers to the Island (apart from J cats and 1-1Ks)are supposed to be restricted to certain types of employment until they have been here 5 years. In practice people are employed in every line of work straight off the boat and have been for years as this rule hasn’t been enforced.
All that we are asking is that vacacies should be offered to those that are already here (wherever they come from) before they are offered to those that have just arrived – surely that can’t be too hard or unjust? In order to achieve this, visas or work permits would be the way forward.
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Ridiculous – in the late 90s Jersey sent a message that it was closed for business and it nearly killed finance – ten years on and Terry sends the same message because there isn’t enough business! Frankly if employers need skilled staff they will first look locally at who is available anyway as relocating staff is very expensive, and if they can’t find anyone then there should be space to allow someone in. Protectionism is terrible for our economy – it will in the long run lead to far greater hardship.
I am, by the way, 100% local!
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nice one nathan (42).
shame on you(44).these days i would say it’s a minority of jersey born who think like this, many of our parents or at least one parent came here all those years ago.
jersey’s housing problem is historic.
as a political position it’s a hard one, a poison chalice that been passed around over the years.
stop the pure greed and we will all have a better life.
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Many of my friends have been in a position where they have been unable to go for a ‘full time’ position because of this rule. I agree with you about Visa’s etc as long as the people who get these are entitled to full rights when they move to the Island.
If you read Mr Le Main’s statement you will see that J Cats will not be offered to people already on the Island despite your claim to the contrary… There is no justification for treating people like second class citizens!
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#30, 32, 42 Very well said.
I’m not a local either having only recently moved from Scotland to live with my partner. Had I instead gone to Italy, France, Germany… a local job applicant would get preference over me (whether their laws said otherwise or not!) so why not in Jersey? Only if there is no-one here that can do the job should permits be given to bring in people from elsewhere. And as the States apparently make it clear you are meant to give them a contract while training someone else up to do that job (I believe this hasn’t been happening?). Someone coming here knowing it’s on a contract should not ever expect to be laying down roots here, why would they?
As others have said there are businesses getting around this by buying apartments/houses for employees to live in. This is not right. Flats/houses should not be bought for (or rented for) employees unless it is written into their job contract that they will lose their job if they turn out to be neighbours from hell.
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Taxes simply do not come into this debate. Taxes are ‘transitory’ since each place you move to you then pay your taxes there. The ‘I’ve paid my taxes here for years’ argument really means nothing since you’ve lived here for the same number of years! It’s better to think of taxes as your way of paying for services you are using currently.
It’s also worth stating that the Jersey-UK employment situation is very different to the Jersey-elsewhere situation. Jersey people could easily go and work in the UK. It would not be anywhere near as easy for them to go work in Asia, not even that easy within other European countries. Therefore, should it not be easier for UK citizens to move here than for others?
Mike R, I have to say that experience in the UK (and here) would suggest otherwise. Employers cannot be trusted to do the right thing by employment law and so Governments need to step in and ensure that they do. Foreign managers are more likely to employ people of the same nationality as them, and it’s nigh on impossible for any other potential applicant to prove it was discrimination that stopped them getting the job, therefore employers get away with it. Employment discrimination (of every type) is rife, in Jersey and elsewhere.
Surely suspicions should be raised that State regulations are being broken as soon as there is an influx of people from any one particular region of the world. If jobs were properly advertised and interviewed (meeting all the legal requirements) why would there not be a better mix of nationalities within Jersey than there is?
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I am unqualified and I have lived in the island for 3 years and I would love the opportunity to pay a sensible rent for sensible accommodation. However neither I nor my girlfriend are important enough to earn a J Cat, despite both having worked in hospitality management, a place where many locals have no interest in working. Yet beyond the teachers and nurses that are desperately required, most J Cats go to those that arrive in top positions on high salaries. These are the very people that can afford the outrageous rents and house prices of the unqualified market, yet they get the opportunity to take up lower cost accommodation. Is it not enough that they command top dollar and then pay by European standards minimal tax? Surely now it is more important to make accommodation affordable and of a decent standard fot those that are in fact taking up roles that locals are unwilling to take as the salaries are too low. And do you really believe that these big companies that have had the tax regime changed to favour them will not get any J Cat they ask for? Once again the people needed will be penalised while the big companies will sail on as if nothing has changed.
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If Jersey is to survive this recession, and make provision for its future aging population, it needs as much inward investment as possible. We can easily sustain a population of 100,000, and we should be aiming to attract young ambitious people and new businesses to our island. This won’t be achieved if businesses are not granted the flexibility to employ who they need or want. Just because someone is locally qualified, does not mean they are qualified to do a particular job – and businesses should not have their hands forced in this way.
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Shame on you! Why don’t you look at how england, italy and germany treat their immigrants before you judge jersey.
In England alone immigrants pay more tax, live in sub standard accomidation and have 14 polish people living in one 3 bedroom house! you don’t like jersey then go back home! at least there’s work and housing over here
Try moving to Italy to work – they have this great system where you aren’t allowed to work until your paperwork is cleared and you ahve to find your own housing for the first 6 months and pay for it without working! – they take 2 years to even process an application and by that time you’re already flying back home because you can’t afford to stay in Italy… added to that you have the locals giving you grief! The only way you can earn money in Italy is to work for free and hope that “tips” cover your bills…
Trust me – my partner lived in italy for 2 years, speaks fluent italian and has loads of qualifications but that’s how hard it was for him!
Oh and there is some great non-quals housing out there – and some terrible A-H housing out there… it’s just about finding the right house! I was non quallied for 10 years and lived in some fantastic houses
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Leah – first time i’ve diagreed with you on here your comment
Jersey people could easily go and work in the UK
is not true. If you are from jersey, your parents are jersey and your grandparents are jersey you are not allowed to work or live anywhere in the EU.
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Leah, we know, you’ve just recently moved here from Scotland, so I’ll give you a few years before you see what Jersey is really like and maybe then you might have an informed opinion. Tax ‘simply’ does come into this debate because if you pay them same taxes as your neighbour then you should be entitled to the same benefits… it really is that simple!
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I will promote that everybody from jersey will have the same conditions imposed upon them when buying any property or attempting to work in France. The UK ought to do the same.
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Lula you have just proved what I have been saying. ‘If you don’t like it go back home’. Does this mean people cannot voice their opinion on the sanctions imposed on them?
Also I think you’ll find that immigrants in the UK have no restrictions on where they can live, also would you like to explain to me how immigrants in England pay more tax? I’m an immigrant to England having long since taken the boat and I pay the same as everyone else here.
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Dear ‘Shame on you’. ‘Lula (53)’ could have be a little more considerate to the poor hard working and oppressed ‘immigrate’ but she is technically correct in all she says. You are, along with many other EU nationals are immigrant in Jersey. Lula is correct.
As a Jerseyman serving the Crown I had to live and work in the UK for 10 years before I had my non-EU endorsement removed from my British passport. What is more I had to have actually living in the UK, hence my 7 years of Crown service in other parts of the EU was discounted by the passport office.
‘Shame on you’, you will find that autocratic nonsense can work two ways, so an apology to poor Lula, please.
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Lula (#54), that’s something I really didn’t know about, thanks for pointing that out. All immigrants to Jersey should be treated the same then. There are not the restrictions on immigrants to the UK that you mention though. Often immigrants are choosing to have many people in small accommodation so they can save as much money as possible to send it back home, never mind that some are simply not admitting to living in the country and are avoiding tax etc! I am well aware of people that have done this in Glasgow. There is also a large tendency to not tax or insure cars and just leave them with the police impound and go buy another £100 car. Many are simply intentionally flouting UK laws, hence their ‘unusual’ living situations.
Shame on you (#55), I’m not questioning that people paying taxes should have the same benefits (availability to same types of housing as similarly salaried people etc) but some are using the ‘I’ve paid my taxes here’ line to say that they should then automatically be allowed to stay here after their contract expires or like the island owes them in some way. Of course they shouldn’t and of course it doesn’t. You pay your taxes for living here now, not in the past or the future. They seem to forget that they are also benefitting by being here as they would be paying far more tax anywhere else! And I live with and know a lot of Jersey-born people who agree with the opinion I have formed from what I’ve seen in my short time here.
Mr Facts (#52) That would be great if businesses were looking out for the island but that (rightly) isn’t their role. Their role is to look out for their own profit. The island is not their concern, nor will it ever be.
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Fact….Jersey is only 9 X 5 miles and so we need to cap the population.
Fact….Jersey needs to reduce those on benefits unless it is absolutely necessary for them. If people can work they should be (not turning noses up at jobs they don’t like).
Fact….Jersey will need to fill the vacancies left after the local market has been exhausted. Work permits are the answer and strict background checks on everyone applying for them.
It should be an incentive to work and earn a good living not the opposite as it seems to be today. Why would someone who has more disposable income living off benefits than working even bother looking for a job??!! The same goes for housing, I feel it should be relative to income. Those on lower income should be allowed rent/accommodation assistance from the states to help improve quality of life…after all if they are working then they are contributing to society. Parents should be held accountable for the crimes of their offspring and adult offenders should be punished according to their crimes…if serious enough then maybe they lose their jobs and forfeit any benefit (receiving food tokens and “halfway house” accommodation until they’ve proven to be an asset to society once again)…..someone more deserving could then take their job. More help should be given to single parents so they can go back to work and have help looking after the children. Watch michael moores filem “Sicko”. The french know how to look after their populace (and not just the locals either). If the bus system was perfect then no-one would need to drive to town. In this perfect world we may all be happy and get along with each other. who knows we may all have a much better quality of live too and not just the 1.1ks or politicians of this rock!!
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Lula
If you care to do a little research you will find out that ‘Jersey Purebreds’ can go and live and work in the UK, there are no restrictions at all. It is also the case that after five years residence in the UK (during which time you can live where you want and buy whatever you can afford) you have the right of establishment in the rest of the EU.
This means that you can go and live and work wherever you want. Paraphrasing the often use and much loved Jersey expression involving the ‘boat in the morning’ stop moaning and leave, go and live in the UK for five years and the rest of Europe is your oyster, put your money where your mouth is!
For avoidance of doubt phone Customs and Immigration over here or check the UK website for details
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I have the stamp in my passport and I have lived and worked in several EU countries with no problems. I have a stamp issuing a work permit in my passport from Amsterdam so it was all done officially and not secretly.
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So all the J cats working in healthcare are kicked off the island along with their families.Tax paying citizens that were trainned at some elses expense yet you are benefiting from.They are not using your social services but are spending their hard earned cash on your island, keeping some of your people in work and paying your extortionate rents. Your kids, partners,loved ones are suddenly taken ill. No one to tend to them as the J cats are back in the UK. O well you could always fly them to the UK for treatment, if they are well enough ! Opps, I see a flaw.
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Mark, if you read my post properly you will see I am not an immigrant in Jersey as I live in the UK. When you were living in the UK were there accomodation restrictions on you ? No. When you were living in the UK were you denied the right to a full time job and made to by law only work contracts or temp roles for 5 years? No. So Mark you need to try and understand a bit more before you demand apologies on behalf of others….
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Dick, who says these people aren’t using States services? They pay tax to entitle them to use States services and everybody uses them to one degree or another (garbage collection, road gritting etc).
They are also being kept in employment by the States (their salaries are ultimately being paid by all taxpayers) so your argument that they are ‘keeping some of your people in work’ is not only unbelievably cheeky but verging on racist!
No-one thinks people in necessary positions should be treated any differently to anyone else on the island. However, ask yourself what made these positions more attractive to people than other positions available elsewhere. Could it be the low tax, the quality of life? There is always the remote possibility they were turned down for positions elsewhere. They are also benefitting, not just Jersey.
It’s a two-sided thing, people need to stop being arrogant enough to suggest that they are bringing some great benefit to Jersey but getting nothing in return! People clearly benefit enough to come here and stay here, otherwise they simply wouldn’t come and stay.
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Oh, Dick. I missed the fact that these people have families. I guess their kids don’t go to school or use any of the services available to kids in Jersey?
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Mark (#58) and Alexa (#62) I don’t see how you can have had such vastly different experiences when trying to work in the UK?
Either your descendents’ nationalities are very different or one of you has married a UK national maybe?
I would be interested to know since my partner is Jersey-born to a Jersey mother and maternal grandparents. We will undoubtedly have to move back to the UK at some point for him to find work in his chosen area of study. Otherwise we need to plan well ahead and get him an Italian passport (which he would be eligible for but does not want) or get married (a decision we wish to take someday for ourselves not purely for legal convenience).
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All these discussions about Jerseyborn’s rights to work in the Uk/EU are irrelevent. Jersey has its own housing/immigration/employment problems and it is up to Jersey how it tackles them. If the uk/eu is concerned about the influx of Jerseyborn people it is up to their parliament(s) to legislate. There are many inequaliies -anyone with an EU grandparent is entitled to work in the EU, so for example, many Australians have a right to work in the EU but Europeans do not have automatic rights to work in Australia
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I guess we can solve this ‘argument’ using This Is Jersey’s own website:
“Because Jersey is not a member of the EU, it is not eligible for certain benefits granted to members. Thus, those born in Jersey face restrictions when working in EU countries other than the UK. Channel Islanders who do not have a connection with the UK through a parent or grandparent or who do not have five years ordinary residence in the UK do not have the automatic right to work or settle in EU countries. The following note is included in their passports: ‘The holder is not entitled to benefit from European Community provisions relating to employment or establishment.”
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J-cats fill in gaps that nobody in Jersey is qualified for. How many doctors trains Jersey, for example? You want us to work for you, provide essential services for you, train you and then treat us like 2nd class citizens and boot us out. I wonder how many J-cats have had 2nd thoughts after arriving here. This is modern slavery. Somebody ought to bring this to a human rights court.
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Next time you are at the GP, the hospital or in emergency: Please ask for a locally trained doctor, surgeon or consultant. If you don’t and prefer our health being saved by a competent person regardless of origin, then just stop this xenophobic rant.
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I love it when I hear Jersey people bang on about how inequitable it is that some of them can’t work in Europe and the “dreaded stamp” in their passport. So vote to join the European Union but remember you will get, amongst others, the following:
1) Loss of sovereignty over fishing rights around Jersey
2) £20 per family a week to support the common agricultural policy
3) Forced to sign up to a pan European extradition treaty where you will be extradited for actions which aren’t even deemed a criminal offence under your local laws.
4) Significant loss of sovereignty over your government’s fiscal policy. 21% GST anyone?
5) Jersey as an affluent economy would also be obliged to be a net contributor to EU funds. At a modest estimate say another £1,000 a family per year.
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Another crazy reversal of policy and a classic right not knowing what the left hand is doing symptom. Surely if the idea is to grow the working population base and at the same time to maintain Jersey’s position in the finance industry, then this is the wrong time to put up the barriers. Pah!
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Michel, I’m sorry but nobody is kept here against their will. Nobody is kept at gunpoint, locked up or blackmailed, so I can only assume that the J-Cats do experience enough benefits to encourage them to stay here. If it was really ‘slavery’ then surely they (and their families) would simply apply for jobs elsewhere (like in the UK for example).
I just don’t buy it. People choose to take up employment over here, nobody makes them. And those that are needed are, from what I have seen, welcome.
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Three cheers for Leah Holmes.
If an immigrant takes up a post or residence for five years, there should not be surprised if they are asked to leave at the end of the five years.
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Bunch of sad islanders who want to keep Jersey in the dark ages. I for one hope the recession hits it hard – then see how much it needs foreigners.
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Work permits would surely work alot better than housing qualifications. Take for example other islands, such as Cayman, BVI etc., all of whom have work permits rather than housing qualifications, which controls the population perfectly, whilst keeping property prices at realistic levels for everyone. The housing qualification is kept in place to protect the value of the assets of the politicians etc.
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Guernsey had a crack down 5 years ago.
What happened ? – the banks started consolidating to London, Dublin and the IOM as they couldn’t fill senior positions.
which meant ‘ordinary’ Guerns who worked as admin staff lost their jobs.
be warned.
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J cats are clever people. They must know the implications of a 3 or 5 year contract overseas.(that they will have to go elsewhere at the end of it) It is their choice to be employed under these terms – no one forces them, so why all the fuss?
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There are two steps regarding “population control”
1. How to control access
2. How to treat people invited.
I was invited. And you know what, I was stupid to accept. I certainly will leave
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Ah, I forgot. And after I have left, Jersey will have to seek a replacement overseas again (of course, new translocation costs, new introductory training and so forth) as Jersey does not have the capacity (therefore, J-cat).
All J-cats: let’s go on strike. We seem to be irrelevant (no appreciation, no representation in politics) so let’s show them. All the unqualified employees who slave in the fields and elsewhere: join us! Let’s see how long this place is going to make it without us.
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#75 Thanks for the sarcasm Mark. #76 you’re not helping the case of non-islanders (like me) by making such nasty comments.
“If an immigrant takes up a post or residence for five years, there should not be surprised if they are asked to leave at the end of the five years.”
Why on earth would they be? It’s a ‘post’, a ‘contract’ it is in it’s very nature time-limited! The person accepts the post knowing that. Are people seriously missing that vital part of the picture? My friend recently returned from such a post in France (he took his family with him). He loved it there and would have been delighted to stay but he’s not being nasty to the French people because he couldn’t.
In Jersey I am also an ‘immigrant’ and so am also affected by these laws. My specific skills are actually required over here but I do not get J-Cat status!
To liken the situation of J-Cats to slavery is such a kick in the teeth to those that are actually in slavery (child trafficking, enforced prostitution…)
Some people make their living going from one post to another (seeing the world at the same time). I imagine they’d complain if at the end of their contract they were forced to stay!
You cannot use the fact that there are issues with the system to justify making some of the vile and discriminatory comments that have been made on here about the Jersey people in general. If I hated Jersey people that much I wouldn’t even want to stay. Why not follow the example of other J-Cats who try and make their point the right way instead of just being nasty to individuals that have done absolutely nothing to you?
There is simply no justification for being so nasty, no matter how much you try to find one.
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#77 just the kind of comment a sensible, kind person would make
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Unbelievably naive, insular poppy cock! It just goes to show how small thinking the leaders of this beautiful Island have become.
First of all, the finance industry recruits from a worldwide platform with, for example, a significant proportion of those working in London having been recruited from USA and beyond. To suggest that Jersey could fulfill local jobs from local resources is naïve and incredibly misleading for all hard working people.
Secondly, without the income generated from the finance industry Jersey would be nothing more than a third world economy in a beautiful setting. Living standards would fall as farming would probably become the main driver of the economy. Man cannot live by potatoes alone. Excuse the mis-quote!
Thirdly, to suggest that Jersey could provide the level of talented people from its own hard working population is ludicrous. If the Minister is serious about this why isn’t there a University in Jersey training local people with the necessary skills?
The Minister says “that all employers had a responsibility to train Islanders to take up new jobs rather than looking to bring in people from overseas to do jobs that people already living here could do.” Now call me cynical if you like but I bet he’s not referring to the jobs undertaken by all those very hard working people in the tourism sector! You know, the hotel staff who work so hard to earn a small crust here that translates to a whole loaf back home.
Minister you should be ashamed of your statement.
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Michel, it is appalling that you have been treated so poorly that you actually want to leave.
Life always goes that bit better if you make friends with and genuinely try to integrate with your ‘hosts’ (as I am trying to). That’s simply not possible if your underlying belief is that these people are not as smart as you (which they are actually); that you’re so great that the island needs you more than you need it; that the islanders are inbred… all comments that have been made by non-Jersey people on this very site!
Despite being essential I do not qualify for J-Cat status. This puts me in a worse position than many of those commenting above. Still, I do not think that gives me the right to make vile comments about the people for whom Jersey is home. There are innumerable countries where I would be killed if I made some of the comments that have been made on here about my ‘hosts’, which leads me to realise that Jersey ain’t so bad!
I notice a distinct lack of complaining and racism among the immigrants that are the backbone of Jersey’s catering industry (undoubtedly essential also) yet they are much worse off than the J-Cats. Why is that?
I am still getting accustomed to Jersey laws, they are so very different to the UK. But there are definitely benefits to some of them that the UK could learn from.
There are both flaws with, and benefits to the laws.
Just don’t choose to come here and then be utterly horrible to those that are already here, there’s nothing nice about that.
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#83, I think sensible people now realise that putting all the eggs into the finance industry wasn’t the best idea, I take it you are aware of how incompetent and utterly immoral some of these people have now been found out to be? (yes, I know, not all!)
Islands can actually survive happily without building constantly upwards, they can maintain lowish populations happily, they do it all around the world. So the people may not be rich, but frankly, since when did being rich mean being a good person or a happy person?
As an immigrant here I am in the less common position of having also come from an island home (population in the hundreds but almost as much land as Jersey). They have no crime indeed they still leave their houses and cars unlocked, nobody dies unduly despite only one doctor on the island, and contrary to what you might think they have a good mix of nationalities there all living well together (including people from as far away as Indonesia). They have one primary school! As always people complain but they understand that they have a great quality of life, overall they are happy, and the people that choose to move there integrate, rather than become nasty towards, those that already live there.
The finance industry might be needed now, but if it had never started over here maybe life would in fact be much better (albeit with a lower population). We’ll never know.
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We need a proper immigration system like Australia. They only take the best they can get. If people aren’t up to the grade they don’t get in. This wholesale allowing in of people can’t go on indefinately the island is too small for mass immigration even the UK is coming to the conclusion they can’t take everyone in.
In my opinion local people should be given first options to do the local jobs, only if somoone local can’t be found should it go off island. Teaching is one area that I find is done by non local people. I know of locally qualified teachers who can’t get a local job in teaching.
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Well i for one agree.
While Jersey does need J cats lets not forget that companys do take advantage. There are a number of jobs that do not get advertised in local places but goes out to the UK or further a field…The States are guilty for this to!
The main criteria against which each “j” application are considered are –
(i) the contribution made to the Island by the employer – e.g. in terms of tax
revenues, service provided, etc;
(ii) the significance of the post in question to the achievement of that contribution;
(iii) the track record of the employer in the recruitment and training of local
people;
(iv) evidence that there is not a satisfactory local candidate for the post in question
If you focus on (iv) then this is the one rule that is not followed. And i am certain that a lot of employees do not train local people like they should.
You all complain about the Ministers comments but how many of you are ‘J’Cats. He is not saying you will lose you jobs but he is saying he will control it more than has done so in the past.
I can only bet that some of you on here who are ‘j’cats do not give a stuff about the locally qualified people by the way you all comment on this site. But you all forget to easily that you have come to Jersey to earn your living and make this your home for however long you decide to stay. We all share this island.
If what the Minister does controls immigration for the good of the island then i for one will support him and so should you.
If it fails then we can all moan and groan like we always do.
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