Sarkozy warns of tough action against tax havens
Monday 23rd February 2009, 2:56PM GMT.
TOUGH action against tax havens should be high on the agenda when world leaders gather in London in April to discuss the global economic situation, the French president said.
Nicolas Sarkozy made the claim following the weekend’s meeting of European leaders and finance ministers in Berlin.
He said that the delegates from Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, Spain, the Netherlands and the Czech Republic had discussed a range of measures to promote financial stability, including pressing for sanctions on tax havens.
Behind the scenes, Island political and business leaders accept that Jersey has never before come under such close scrutiny as a finance centre. Treasury Minister Philip Ozouf (pictured) said that the Island welcomed the opportunity to show how well regulated it was.’
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So what if we are well regulated, we are still a tax haven and still look after the money of the rich so they don’t have to pay tax making the average person have to pay more this must be stopped and the states must see that Jersey does not need finance.
Jersey is an agent for making the poor poorer and the rich richer.
People give money to charity whilst the main islands income is completely immoral.
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Hurry up and build the finance quarter before we find out it will be useless.
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Hah, Sarko’s approval ratings are in the gutter and his attempts to play Bismarck aren’t impressing anyone. He’ll make some token whining to appease the hardcore Left in France then realise he needs the tax havens to keep businesses running in a recession and hush up.
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We have nothing to worry about, we are well regulated, professional and transparent. The places that should be worried are the reckless offshore finance centers with little or no legislation and no transparency. Its a shame we are being tarnished with this brush with inaccurate nonsense as per usual from the Tax Justice Network yet again, but the review later in the year should set the record straight.
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Haven’t you got the message yet? Citigroup claimed to be well regulated. So did HBOS, Anglo-Irish bank, UBS, Lehman, and many more. They’ve all failed. The regulation was inappropriate. It generated vast amounts of paper, contained no risk and delivered no benefit. The regulation was looking in the wrong direction at the wrong problem. Probably deliberately so.
And the same is completely true of the regulation that has applied to Jersey. So what then that Jersey complied with the rules? They were the wrong rules, asking the wrong questions and getting the wrong answers.
The world has changed. Saying you’re playing by the old rules is a certain recipe for getting left behind in the new scenario that is being created.
Get real Jersey: transform your act, change ahead of the requirement to do so or you and your like will be rightly swept aside. It’s a blunt choice. But you’ve got to make it.
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Annie what island are you on? Most of the locals work in finance only a small percentage are not local – if finance went up in smoke who would pay Jersey taxes? Who would pay for those getting help from social security? Those people working in retail? If there was no finance industry there would not be enough jobs to keep the population of jersey well fed and with a house over their heads!
Yes we are a tax haven but only for non-jersey residents – these people still pay tax just not as much as they would do without setting up companies and trusts to hide behind – and incidentally the “exampt tax status” in jersey costs £600 for each company registered in jersey and this money goes to us as an island.
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The fact is that everywhere outside a particular country is a so-called “tax haven”. What right do New York and London have to dominate half of global financial transactions? It is a trade like any other. I don’t complain at the inequitable way the French dominate global Camembert production.
As for regulation and responsibility – every hedge fund fraud in the last ten years has occurred in the United States because they didn’t put enough focus on regulation (Madoff, Nadel and many others).
Jersey works as a finance location because it is specialist and efficient at what it does – our industry designs and implements the products needed to keep global finance working – and they appear to do so in a far more responsible manner than the SEC or FSA!
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So much of reckless credit advanced imploding) this decade (that’s now imploding with disasterous consequences) has been via what Bill Gross of Pimco coined as the “Shadow Banking System” set up offshore to get round the disciplines of bank prudential capital rules. Forget about tax evasion, money laundering or terrorist funds, this is the big one. Like many other offshore finance centres, we have helped facilitated this credit binge. IF you don’t believe me , look in the trade journal IFR which gives tables of the monetary values of advances by jurisdiction. The JFSC certainly don’t enforce prudential capital rules on these entities. Checking that the Jersey administrator used has staff CPD logs up to date kind of misses the mark slightly! If it needs concerted international so that such structures are brought within robust prudential regulation so be it.
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Well said Mike R. In fact I’d stretch your comments to say that London and NY were as ‘dodgy’ as some of the offshore tax havens they bleet at.
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The facts are simple. The American debt clock is over $10 Trillion. The UK economy is now more in the red than ever. The French economy is following suit. So who do they blame? Jersey, Guernsey etc. The main issue is that poor onshore regulation has created this recession. Not us, them with their frivolous lending. The businesses we do with many professional clients are beyond the scope of taxation from the America, USA, France, Germany etc anyway so its nonsense. I work in the industry and we do not facilitate money laundering, tax evasion and non transparent arrangements which are on offer in such as places like Antigua, Switzerland and Cayman. So if the Tax Justice Network cannot even get their understandings of the ‘who is right and who is wrong’ here then they demonstrate how stubborn they really are. In any case what would they like us to do? Shut down and let the business move to an unregulated offshore finance centre? I think now. Half the time they only complain and finger point just to justify their existence and funding. Recently we were given the thumbs up by the UK Treasury on Panorama. We were congratulated on News Night but this all goes unnoticed by the Tax Justice Network’s selective blindness as per usual. So forget the hype, we are a well established offshore finance centre and the finger pointers just so happen to come from places with such poor regulation that has put the world into recession, and unsurprisingly they cannot even see it themselves.
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‘our industry designs and implements the products needed to keep global finance working’ Interesting one Mike R however last time I looked out the window global finance was not working, we are actually in the middle of a global crisis of epic proportions.
I also do not see the rest of the world beating a path to our door saying ‘thank you Jersey’. People need to realize that it does not matter if London and New York are dirtier than us. What matters is that London, Paris and NY are bigger than Jersey and carry more clout.
If they want to use us as a whipping boy to take the blame for the credit crunch then they will do and there is not a thing we can do about it. Politics is about making sure that you do not take the blame and paraphrasing George Bernard Shaw (I think) ‘Jersey has no enemies but our friends don’t like us’.
Wittering on about how well regulated we are will not help a bit this is not an issue about the regularity of bowel movements. It is about passing the buck.
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The sooner the better. The majority loose out because of a shortfall in legitimate taxs which are not paid in the country where they are due by the legal use of moving ones money around. If its good for one group why not let everyone do it? Even better why not just get rid of taxes as no one likes them and let everyone fend for themselves? we need to decide that we are all into paying taxes or we are all into not paying taxes which is it? Half way houses don’t work as far as I am concerned, as it breeds discontent and anarchy, as those shouldering the biggest burden get fed up with it, and look for ways to escape an unfair and uncaring system.
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Well Annie and Adrian – when finance is gone and we have reverted to basic hospital treatment, no pensions, no street lighting and no social security payments – don’t go blaming anyone else!
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We are already paying the cost of tax avoidance with Goods and Sales Tax. You could say that we pay tax on food in order to allow outsiders to pay no or little tax at all with their 0-10. But we have nailed ourselves to this arrangement and any more meddling could have far reaching consequences for our economy. France? No they have no say over the Channel Islands. No financial business is done with France, because it can’t be.
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Caroyln we have much of what you say already it is just people don’t realise it yet. Things are deteriorating daily over here now. Pot holes are patched and repatched whereas in the good old days we had resurfaced roads everytime there was a slight dip in the surface.
Finance is not the be all and end all. Nothing is irreplacable no matter how much people say it is. We were fine before finance. I remember the 1960′s when we didn’t have finance and things were great, no overcrowding, no crime, no greed, no discontent, everyone happy in nice enjoyable jobs where people had time to think and weren’t exhausted at the end of a hard day’s slog going uphill fast.
Can you really say things are better now than the 1960′s because I can’t. Peoples wellbeing is at an all time low and their sense of dread grows daily at what is in store for them, is this the way to live?
Anyway morality and ethics says what is going on over here is wrong and no amount of finance jobs will ever restore the balance. Finance will leave at some stage and we need to get ready for that day instead of sticking our heads in the sand and denying anything is wrong, and saying how well regulated we are. How do you think other people just like you in other countries feel when they realise that their standard of living and quality of life is reduced just so that people just like you can work in finance elsewhere?
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We could think the worst how many years left for Jersey as a tax haven sorry well regulated finance centre.It would bring very few positive outcomes like a reduction in pouplation,less cars,cheaper housing,less landfill ,build a smaller incenerator no housing quals and have to depend on tourism again it would change Jersey so much.The momentum by USA ,France and Germany is growing.What next? Gordon Brown is pressurised to get the Queen to change the Jersey status or the european commision to change our protocol and join in against other finance centres.No one wants to see our jobs and homes devalued.There is a rocky road ahead in the next few years lets hope they have the proper representation and show the world that it needs places like this.
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Adrian you are making sweeping assumptions. I don’t work in finance and to be honest I don’t really understand the point you are trying to make with your last statement.
I wasn’t alive in the 60′s so can’t comment on that era, but I did accompany my mother to the parish hall every week whilst she collected parish relief in the 70′s.
From my perspective the finance industry (and the people they employ) have created opportunities for this island that have allowed the majority of those who put in the work, a far higher standard of living than most other places in the world.
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Adrian
I applaud your appreciation of the simple life but (for better or worse) modern consumerism and our reliance on technology to entertain us and make our lives easier cannot be paid for by a peasant economy.
If you can live without the latest technology in your house and don’t demand the latest treatments from a health system I respect that – most people couldn’t though. I’m not saying life was not happier in the 60′s than it is today (no doubt the older generation in the 60′s said the same about the 1920′s) but if you want to go back to the 1960′s or further when we didn’t have electricity or today’s way of life etc why not find another small island in the sun with no infrastructure or social support.
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Carolyn you say you dont understand the point Adrian is making in his last statement re morality and ethics, ie a higher standard that just legal compliance and enriching ourselves at others expense. File on 4, Radio 4′s investigative programme ran a story recently on a western commodity exporting business which set up a business in one of the better run African states.That country had set special low tax rates to attract in foreign expertise. The said commodity company, however, still felt the need to set up a Jersey based company and via the use of transfer pricing ruses, cut its taxable profits in the African country. So in exchange for legal and admin fees over here those administrators and lawyers were willing to deprive a poor country of much needed tax revenue for the basics of schooling and healthservices. They may not even have given it a second thought. Do you not see the moral and ethical issues here?
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Actually Joker unless the boffins in the backroom get their heads together and sort out some really cracking problems like nuclear fusion to take over as we run down our existing stocks of fossil fuel and ultra high density polymer batterys to run the next generation of cars we are going to be in serious trouble in say 15 – 25 years.
Suppose China and India carry on industrialising as fast as they are now. It really means that we could have another 500,000,000 cars on the planet by 2035. Plus they will want central heating or air conditioning, long haul holidays etc.
If you look at oil production alone there will not be enough to sustain that sort of demand and either there will be a serious war or we will all have to learn to get along with a lot less.
Sometimes in my bright optimistic moods I think we might go for the getting along with less option but more and more I think we will go for the all out war option!
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Reference Morality and Ethics.
1. $255 Billion is lost world wide because of tax havens/offshore finance centres.
2. $195 Billion a year spent to combat world poverty would cut it by half in 10 years.
This still leaves $60 Billion per year for other humanitarian projects.
Jersey is involved in this so contributes to this $255 Billion shortfall of legally due monies around the world each and every year.
Now lets put the boot on the other foot. How would you feel if someone in Ghana for example run this sort of operation and affected people in Jersey to the same degree, would you be happy knowing your access to schooling for your kids, hospital treatment, social welfare etc etc were all less than they could be? Your life expectancy was say 45 years whilst those in Ghana lived to a ripe old age had work pension and a state pension because they were well off from finance? You knew this was going on but there was nothing you could do about it. How would you feel knowing that your standard of life was less than it ought to be?
Now lets put another spin on it. Someone in Ghana said hold on a minute this finance stuff is affecting others in Jersey and they are in a bad way. Then the majority who gained a living from finance said but we are well regulated and we abide by all international rules and regulations etc etc, you shouldn’t be attacking it. Anyway it doesn’t matter because it is legal. How would you feel? I think you would have to agree you would be livid. If you say you wouldn’t be bothered I wouldn’t believe you.
Can others see where I am coming from with this? Now do you honestly think this is good practice in the 21st century, and do you condon this sort of thing? Indeed are you happy working for a business that has this sort of impact worldwide and on others far poorer than you? This legally avoided tax every year is literally killing people this is the bottom line. Surely anyone with a Christian outlook can’t be happy with this?
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Joker you have said something very important.
“modern consumerism and our reliance on technology to entertain us and make our lives easier cannot be paid for by a peasant economy”
If someone is reliant on something then they are addicted aren’t they and we all know this is bad. I don’t believe our lives are being made easier by this capitalistic system. It is cleverly marketed as such but it is an illusion. Things are getting worse daily for those in the work place, this is not a benefit it is regression to the bad old days. Stress is affecting more and more people. What is the point of having all these useless things that you do not need? There are more important things in life.
So I take it you are happy with this consumerism even though you don’t need it? These so called aids to modern living will not increase your life expectancy or make you a better person or fitter. Indeed many of these aids to modern living are actually reducing your life expectancy! With more consumerism comes more red tape and laws to control things better. With this beaurocratic load comes more useless jobs that are required to police all this bearocacy comes extra taxes etc etc.
Everyone is becoming a prisoner to consumerism because they a marketed to in such a clever way so as to believe that they need all this rubbish! Why are people so naive? I saw through this a long time again and I try and stay out of the system as much as possible. It breeds discontent, greed, bad habits and drives wedges between everyone. We now live in a “I must buy things society”. People are programmed to think that working silly hours to get lots of often useless items is the way to be seen as successfull. I don’t believe it is, all they are doing is driving themselves into an early grave as far as I am concerned. If you are happy then I say go for it but it isn’t for me.
I also don’t see why I should have to move from a place I like living in, however sometimes I do dispare at what Jersey is turning into. I try and grow as much as possible myself and survive on as little as possible so it allows me to work part time. I believe time is the most precious thing we all have. However because I do this I forego much of what everyone would say is a necessity. I don’t have a modern T.V. as it isn’t needed. I drive an old car as I won’t waste money on a new one. I don’t have loads of holidays every year as they aren’t needed. Most importantly I don’t keep up with the Jones’ as I prefer to pay my way and not put everything on credit. I only tend to buy things when I can afford them whereas most nowadays live beyond their means but they have loads of (useless) necessities which they think will make them feel better or be shown in a better light. In reality I believe all this consumerism is dragging most down under a mountain of debt which is what the banks and the capitalists want.
I say everyone is free to be a slave to the system if they want. Go for all the gadgets and gizmos but it won’t:-
make you any happier,
increase your life expectancy,
make you a better person.
With more capitalism you tend to get:-
many useless things,
increased landfill and pollution,
envy and greed,
in debt,
longer working hours,
less money in your pocket,
less freedom,
less free time,
less family time,
more tax to pay,
more disillusioned,
more families where both parents have to work just to tread water,
more divorce,
more children with behavoural problems….
However I do agree that certain infrastructure is usefull like housing, drains, roads, sea walls, parks, hospitals, clubs, fire service etc.
People should sit down and think things through, do they really prefer this modern society, and all that goes with it, or is there something better for them if they modified their ways?
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So, our world leaders are bored with blaming the banks and are now pointing fingers at tax havens. We keep hearing about tax dodgers costing their economies millions, but what its really about is them finding more money to sink into “toxic” banks and fat-cat pension plans. What, if anything, is Sarkozy and his chums going to do about Switzerland? For that matter, is vice-president Biden going to tighten up the regulations in his own state of Delaware? Probably not. They’ll just pick their fights wisely and hopefully gain the populist vote. When the credit crunch finally blows over, these same politicians will be arguing that we need less regulation and a freer hand of the market.
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Yosser I can’t comment on a radio programme that I didn’t hear, but reducing tax liability (legally) happens the world over. Will you be voicing your indignation when the zero ten policy means that only locally owned businesses have to pay tax this year despite the proven fact that the cost of doing business in Jersey is 40% higher than the UK.
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Carolyn, you’ve in some ways answered your own question. Special privileges for the finance industry to carry on its activities in exchange for revenue indirectly via JFSC levies etc so we can pretend we are meeting OECD requirements. If you dont see any moral and ethical issues with that example I mentioned then I truly pity you. That country was not advanced enough yet to have put in controls over transfer pricing so yes its legal. But what our “finance professionals” helped facilitate for that business was shameful.
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adrian things were better in the 60s because kids were brought up with discipline knowing that they have to take responsibility for their actions – nowadays they know they can get away with murder! Added to the amount of immigrants we have in jersey with different cultures and we get segregation which results in ill feelings.
more crime is due to the younger generations having more rights than adults – I mean our convicts in prison were campaigning for 50inch flat screen TVs! They’re there to suffer not to have a holiday and their debts erased! The swinging 60′s – i wish i grew up in such a time but even in the 10 years i’ve lived in Jersey I’ve seen the decline…which leads me to believe it’s nothing to do with the finance industry and more to do with how kids are being brought up.
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Carolyn reducing tax liability by legal or illegal means has the same end result so I don’t see any difference between the two. Reduced taxes means the majority pay more and have less. If you are happy for this to be so that is your perrogative. I think it is wrong ethically, morally and especially if you have christian beliefs.
People who are greedy and self serving will call this a free market economy. I see nothing free about it and it is a much poorer economy for the majority because of these practices. The bottom line is tax avoidance or evasion is directly responsible in the end for deaths in other countries who are made poorer by this wealth transfer. No ifs, buts or maybes.
Would you be happy if this adversely affected your standard of living in Jersey?
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Adrian you are the only one making any sense shame everyone else in Jersey is so greedy and blind to what is happening. Money does not make you happy in the long run it just gives you little pick me ups to make you feel happy for a short while. Time is the most important thing in life once it is gone it is gone you can not buy it back. Their is no way of changing the way people are it seems to be part of human nature to want more and more. Shame only a small percentage of us think there is more to life than money. As already commented by someone China and Indian are the next big countries and they will all want cars tv’s etc. Global warming is real and has been underestimated by scientists you just wait and see the true effects of mans greed. But again to late you can not go back and change the last hundred years and how can you stop China and India in the next hundred years!
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I would just like to say that this post has become very personal with attacks on individuals being made, Rewind before the 60′s way back, white people took black people as slaves, wasn’t right but at the t ime it was! We eat animals, we don’t need to but we are morally happy to do it because its accepted. The finance industry in Jersey is worth about 70 pence in every pound in our economy, so imagine basic services with a 70% plus reduction in revenue, nobody wants it really. We accept that our Island looks after money that could or shoulld be paid in taxes elsewhere, so how about we have a poll tax and GST at 15% Personal tax up to 45% and oh yes we will earn less because the finance industry has gone, any takers?
Regardless of what we feel about it we need it, or our children will leave because Jersey will not be the idyllic place it is today to live in, local people will be in the fields at 5am on a Sunday morning sowing the fields and allof you who remember the good old days will be asking for the good old days when finance was here!
There are other countries that have a higher VAT than England so does that make England a tax haven, Jersey has put its eggs in one basket (Whether we shouldof is another post!) so we have to support it or prepare for a mass exodus which will include locals!
And finally……. for those of you remembering the good old days can i ask do you have a mobile phone? colour Tv? Car with Air con? Central Heating? Switch cards and credit cards and if so why? they didn’t have them in the good ole days but wait you have selective memories you want progress but only when it suits. and for the record I am NOT in finance but i am awake enough to know we need it!
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Does this mean that the bridge to France is off the agenda now?
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lulu you can take my word that things were great in the swinging sixties,also the fifties,every-one was much happier and most people had nothing,but there was plenty of comraderie and fun even though we worked very long hours six days a week with 2 weeks holiday a year,no-one was much bothered,we had fun and laughter at work.in those days there was plenty of industries to work which have now gone.a lot of this stress of today is caused by uncertainty and less freedom than we had,we were all risk takers in those days but this is now denied by the political correct.we did things that would make your hair curl(like jumping off the largest trees) and riding our bikes no hands no feet(crash helmets wer,nt invented then) down hills,but guess what? no-one was hurt and i believe this made us much stronger people to face life with all its ups and downs.well said adrian completely agree
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Gary it is wrong to make people suffer so we can save some rich people or a big company money. Do you have no scruples? How would you feel if you lived in one of the countries affected by a finance centre? Would you be happy to have no proper drinking water or proper food because money was being moved to a finance centre?
Your arguement ref 70% of our revenue is irrelevant as it is eclipsed by human suffering or are you saying it doesn’t matter because others do it? Our government’s inability to have a balanced economy is no excuse for carrying on as we are.
Others are starving because of the legal avoidance of taxes this is immoral and wrong, legality doesn’t make it right. If we have to do a bit of hard work in fields then so be it. I would still prefer that to what 80% of the world have to put up with.
As for those in finance they should live in a third world country and see what they have to put up with, then they might change their minds about finance centres.
Jersey is worse today than the 1960′s and 1970′s I know as I was here then. It has gone down the road of consumerism where everyone is being forced towards a 24/7/365 culture. This is bad and not needed. Everyone should learn to make do with less then they would be a lot better off spiritially and mentally. Carry on down this road and it will end in chaos as people rebel against the system. It is not sustainable.
As regards an exodus so what? We are over populated all ready. I would be quite happy to have a bit more room and less greed about. It would make the rest of us left behind a lot better off in all respects. Money is not the solution it is the problem it is just that people cannot see it. All money is, is a tool to enable a few to keep the rest under control and in line, it is basically the mark of slavery.
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Boris #11, well said!
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Adrian, your argument is only true if the governments missing this tax income were to use it wisely to help their population. And not like Britain wasting money supporting a lazy generation of benefit cheats or other (usually 3rd World) countries spending it on arms and paying for unnecessary wars!
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way to go sarkozy!! bring em down!!
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well said fed up!!life is far more important than money. i survive on a basic wage and very happy. health is top before dosh!!
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Unless you have invented time travel Adrian we can’t go back to the 60′s and as much as you enjoyed your youth there are many who wouldn’t want to.
I’m not going to start arguing about other countries but my point remains the same- our finance industry is well regulated, it endeavours to ensure that the funds received are within the laws it has laid down, and the income from this industry benefits all of us bar none.
Our hospitals, our schools, the cleanliness of our island all benefit from this industry.
It isn’t a case of being immoral but of wanting the best in terms of healthcare and education for my children, these wouldn’t be available if the island faces a huge drop in income, and as Gary said we would pay for it in taxes, GST and many other areas.
If the majority of funds the island manages is received from the EU would you be so offended by our finance industry?
I don’t understand why you are in a place where the morality of the majority of inhabitants makes you so unhappy, and I mean that sincerely. Do you not see anything positive within your environment and the people around you?
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Hi Moi,
I take it that you consider the hundreds of billions that the UK and US governments have used to support the banks is not a waste of tax payers money?
If the UK and US had not acted to support RBS, Lloyds, Citigroup et al Jersey would no longer have a finance industry.
But one person’s lame duck is another person’s deserving case.
One thing I think we can all guarantee is that the governments concerned will try and recover the money by tightening up taxation
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Moi I agree all countries waste money on weapons when their people could be better served by using the money elsewhere but it was ever thus.
Nationalism breeds wars as it causes difference. We all know that certain countries don’t like other countries and this is down to differences in outlook whether religious, racial, political etc, and the fact that man is basically interested in fighting to be proved right in an argument.
However it is not up to another to say look they waste their money so we might as well allow financial centres to take what was rightfully that country’s money. Yes all countries should be welfare minded but they aren’t. People are by nature greedy and want what isn’t theirs and will often engineer situations to get get what they want. If people were caring we wouldn’t have wars would we? It is therefore peoples nature that causes all these world problems and it is up to them to change or face the consequences of their actions.
I believe financial centres are wrong because every country is entitled to collect its own taxes as it sees fit, or else we risk dictatorship don’t we? If a country wastes its money on the wrong things who are we to justify taking it away through financial centres? Whatever you may think of a country don’t you think it has a right to collect its own taxes without outside interference? If you don’t then you agree that some other country has a right to affect our own collection of taxes don’t you?
Also $255 Billion is an awfull lot to go missing from the pot and I am sure some of this would go to local infrastructure etc which would thus still improve the lot of the poorest on earth. You never know charities might then need less contributions to help the poor in these countries leaving more money for local needs.
I basically see this structure as a method to take money from the poorest and redistribute it to the wealthiest who don’t really need it. This is why it is wrong. This whole thing is run on greed and it is always the poorest and weakest who suffer so that the few at the top can enjoy life. If I had my way things would be more evenly balanced but world leaders and goverments wouldn’t want this as it would upset the balance of things and as we all know we can’t have that can we?
As for Britain, it is seen as a soft touch because it is probably more welfare minded than most who would be quite happy to see people dieing on the streets. Yes they should tighten things up but as we all know they wouldn’t need to do this if people weren’t self centred and were honest. It depends how you view things. If you believe in everyone for themselves then taxes should be abolished and then it would be everyone for themselves, with all the resultant chaos.
If you believe in looking after others then everyone should pay their fair share and not be a drain on others and it isn’t just the poor or cause this drain it is the wealthy and big business who can move their monies around the world to save on taxes due.
A fairer and just world would see the end of poverty and a rise in standards for 90% of the worlds population however a few would have their wealth reduced.
Also we would have to rethink the way we do things because capitalism only works on inequalities, fired by greed and self worth. We are witnessing this greed and self worth in bucket loads at the moment and this is why cracks are appearing in the system.
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carolyn are you are saying you want whats best for you regardless of how it impacts on others? If this is so then no wonder the planet is in the mess it is. I think we should think of how we affect others and not just those around us, I myself am not perfect and would never say I am.
However I find it alarming that others seem blind to the sufferings of others. Why isn’t everyone more concerned about others elsewhere? Is it a case of out of sight out of mind?
Legalities as I have said before are irrelevant. Do you need laws to tell you the difference between right and wrong?
I see positives but Jersey is running down hill due to self service and greed and the end result will be the collpase of things as we know it. Is this what you want?
My main positives of jersey are all none financial, you appear to be worring about money and what you personally can get from the system. I believe money is a method of keeping the majority in a job, i.e. Just Over Broke. The treadmill that is life could be so much better but the majority are too busy running round like headless chickens to see this as far as I am concerned.
I prefer those that care and are interested in the welling of others besides just themselves. Can you say there are many over here now?
Finally when finance is gone we will, as my grandfather used to say, cut our cloth accordingly.
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Hi Pip,
In fact I do think it is and I also think those responsible should face criminal charges like Leeson did. How can banks boast record profits year after year and then suddenly collapse?? Obviously something needs to be done about this false accounting going forward.
I wouldn’t say Jersey’s finance industry would collapse if those banks ceased to exist because there are plenty of other financial institutions doing ok.
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Adrian 22
Firstly I’m not sure you or I can evaluate someone’s happiness. You find reward by growing your own veg – others find it by watching TV… what’s the difference? I think you are being judgemental over peoples intelligence and ruling over what we call choice. I used to be like you e.g. I for one would never waste 30p on a tabloid paper unless I’m short of toilette paper and I hate all the celeb stuff and the consumerism surrounding it. I would sneer at anyone who worshiped Big Brother etc. Some would call me a snob – and they were right to. What right do we have to take that away just because we don’t understand why it gives them pleasure? I think it is very sad you do not travel if you can afford to do so. Life is short and you are lucky to be alive in this time and on a wealthy Island… the probability of you being born somewhere like Ghana was much higher. Therefore don’t you owe it to those who have less to appreciate what you have and use it? Do you think you are bettering their lives by sacrificing what you could enjoy?
Tell me, when do things become a need and not a luxury? A BMW is a luxury over a Ford? A Ford is a luxury over a bike? Bike is a luxury over walking? Are clothes a luxury? We don’t ‘need’ any of these things but we have them because they make our lives easier. Excess of anything is not good but used in proportion you cannot say that our lives are worse off than before the microchip etc. Please don’t tell me you’d rather walk miles to work in the rain than drive, or at least envy those that can? There is nothing wrong with purchasing something that makes your life easier provided it’s within you means. You make an excellent point about keeping up with the Jones’ – too many people doing that is what has caused this credit crunch – people borrowing more than they can pay back to buy what their neighbours have. This doesn’t mean that commercialism is wrong or evil. Like anything commercialism can be misused and abused – and it has been.
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Adrian 21/32
I agree with you to an extent but there are far bigger problems in the world than well regulated Offshore places like Jersey. The UK, US and Europe are themselves rotten to the core in corruption.
The $295bn you refer to is a drop in the ocean compared to what the US and UK have wasted on illegal wars and punching out their foreign policies. Europe is nothing but a bunch of corrupt politicians lining their own pockets and looking after their own. These governments fund and arm many of the dictators causing misery in their own countries before spending UK etc tax payers money to disarm them. Add to that the wasted billions the US and UK and Euro Treasuries write off every single year through incompetence and thievery.
If I was a poor kid in Africa somewhere – I’d be trying to do exactly what a lot of them do and head west for a ‘better’ life. My point being they seem to want it too – therefore surely I have as much right to keep my job as much as the kid in Ghana has a right to want it?
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No Adrian I am not saying I want the best for myself regardless of others, I am saying that I very much appreciate the life that I have and the opportunities this island offers my children.
You continue to make sweeping statements and yet you have not answered the question of how you can continue to live in a society that you obviously have a great dislike for.
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Carolyn 44 – I live in Jersey despite being deeply ashamed of what it has become because it is my HOME. My family home, where my parents, my grandparents, my great grandparents etc etc were born and raised and where I believe I have a right to live and a right to have a say in how my home should be in the future. I agree utterly with Adrian’s views and sentiments and look forward to a much better future once our chronic addiction to the finance industry is terminated. My great regret is that our cowardly and vision-less politicians have been in denial for so long and have failed utterly to prepare for what has been inevitable to many of us since the OECD started sniffing around years ago.
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Caroyln if you do have some concern for others then how can you be happy working in finance as this is affected others standards off living in poorer countries ref $255 Billion a year and don’t say this would make no difference? Your standard of living as is everyone’s in the west is higher because someone else’s is lower. A gain in one area is made up by a loss in another this is basic economics. It is interesting that you can do a job that does impact on others wellbeing. Is this because you are happy with the money? If you are happy with things that is your choice. If you had lived in the 1800′s would you have gone along with slavery because it was well regulated and legal or would you have demanded it got rid of?
I am only trying to make people think about things thats all.
As per living in Jersey I find it better if I have little to do with capitalism and finance as possible and avoid people who are in it for themselves as I they are too self centred to be interested to talk to me anyway. I find it very sad the way Jersey has gone downhill this is my point. With passage of time people’s wellbeing should get better not worse or are we on a trip back to the dark ages?
If you honestly think people are happier now and more contented you weren’t here in the 60′s, maybe you are new to the island and so don’t have access to the way things were? I wish everyone was happy but to achieve this selfishness needs to be reduced not increased as it is at present.
I get more enjoyment out of growing my own veg or fishing or walking on the lovely north coast or low tide walks than ever I could doing other things and wasting my money on worthless things to keep up with the Jones’s.
Jersey is a lovely place to live if you stay out of the back biting, stuff everyone else, life style. This is the way I feel on things and I believe I have less impact on others and the environment through my choices. Maybe others don’t care about anything but themselves? I feel sad for these types as they are unlikely to know true happiness and will forever be on the treadmill of a possessions, and debt fueled, capitalistic, protestant work ethic that drives them till they drop down dead. I believe there is more to life than this, obviously it is up to others to choose their own paths, however if they could just consider others a bit more I think things would take a turn for the better.
Joker do you think people are really happy now? I don’t, you see all the long faces on their way to work every day it is quite sad but thet are happy are they? Not many in Jersey are happy anymore I see them all mooping around the place not many are polite etc etc. You can’t say we are in a happy society in Jersey as far as I am concerned. All I here is moans about this and that every day now. In the 60′s people were happy with their lot and Jersey was a reasonably safe fun place to live where most were having a good life. Can you honestly say the same now? I don’t think so.
I believe the more possessions the less happiness one actually has. I have been to the third world and even though many are in abject poverty they are happy and smile, why don’t we, if we are that much better off, or are we so wrapped up in the must get more disease to see we have more than enough already?
As per poor kids in Africa this is my point make them richer and they won’t need to come here will they ? They can stay at home and enjoy their own place and culture instead of going to somewhere else where they will more than likely be taken advantage of doing rubbish jobs for little reward and being hated by the local population.
I believe finance centres help this poverty continue so I believe it would be better if they weren’t here. This is my own personal view, even if it affects my monetary rewards. Others may feel the opposite especially if it were to impact their pockets?
Finally at the end of the day the planet is suffering because of mankind and we can’t get away from this fact. If we carry on with this greedy, possession filled, debt laden culture then we are in big trouble as are the following generations. These are my own honest views and people are free to disagree with them if they are so inclined.
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Sacre bleu! I don’t work in finance!
I have a lovely way of life very similar to that which you describe in paragraph 4 – I take a lower income for far more pleasure and enjoyment in what I do.
I am not new to the island, my family have been here for almost 500 years but I still appreciate the benefit the island has received from the finance industry, the standard of education that I received and that my children are still getting, and when we are faced with a serious illness we get prompt and excellent treatment (present news items not withstanding)
I agree with you Bruce we have a right to say how our island will look in the future, I am exercising my right to do just that in this forum.
I just get frustrated with “assumptions” on what I do and what I feel. My posts have clearly laid out my view and I don’t like this being stretched into something different.
That’s what makes a democracy different points of view?
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The finance industry is not well regulated! The board of the JFSC comprises almost entirely of persons connected with the finance industry. Whilst this is appropriate for a quango promoting finance(Jersey Finance) it is totally inappropriate for the body regulating finance(the JSFC)
Notwithstanding this, Jerseys days as a finance centre are numbered. Even if Jersey’s activities are deemed legal and well regulated, the principal object of the business is assisting individuals, entities etc. in reducing their taxation liabilities. Countries like the USA, France, Germany will no longer tolerate this.
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Adrian
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. A lot of people look back on their lives and consider the early days as a better time of their life – it’s called nostalgia. The mind is very selective and tricks you into thinking you were happier because it is very good a remembering the good times and forgeting some of the bad times – it is kind to you like that. Besides I guarantee you that the older generation in the 60′s said the roaring 20′s was the time to live it up, no doubt their parents said the 1880s were the best as well.
What is a fact is the further back in time you go the harder life was and the less choice you had – the latter is a great contributor to happiness. Personally I’d rather do what I do than spend 12 hours down a mine every day or hard graft in a field. The fact I have a choice to cycle or drive into work makes my life easier and to an extent happier. Or the fact I can hop on a plane and go somewhere different to absorb new wonders and culture. My parents grew up with nothing compared to the choices I have available and I am grateful for that. Some do take things for granted and that is where unhappiness lies.
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