Immigrant workers face ten-year wait for ‘local’ status
Tuesday 24th February 2009, 2:59PM GMT.
PLANS to increase the time it takes to be qualify as ‘local’ in the job market from five to ten years are under discussion.
Housing Minister Terry Le Main, giving evidence yesterday to a Scrutiny panel, revealed that a new resident may have to wait ten years for both work and residential qualifications.
Currently under the Regulation of Undertakings Laws, a person is considered to be able to apply for any job after five years’ continuous residence.
Employers can freely recruit any Islander who has lived in Jersey for more than five years to fill any post that is vacant. However, they are restricted in the number of people they can employ who have been resident for less than five years.
Senator Le Main (pictured) told the Health and Housing Scrutiny panel that the Chief Minister’s Department were considering putting forward proposals that would increase the work qualification period to ten years.
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First we have the no recession politician – his words have been proven to be grossly inaccurate, so now we have the protectionist politician, so what will be the outcome of this one?
Probably twofold, the European Court for Human Rights would seem to one, followed or beaten by a sharp U Turn when reality sinks in that “The Islanders” can’t and won’t do the jobs that the very same Islanders need doing to make their economy work.
As I drive along St Ouens Bay I always look for one of these “meetings” where important policy is being discussed taking place. They are easy to see apparently, with a lot of heads deep in the sand and a lot of other parts stuck on the air.
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So what happens to those currently employed who have been here over five years and under ten?
Do they lose their jobs in Mr Le Main’s eutopia. Interesting concept actually depriving those in employment of a job for no good reason except a change in policy.
Let’s see how that sits with Human Rights legislation which all new laws must be compliant with.
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Yes Terry, but this will only work if roguishly enforced. What are the statistics?
1) How many ‘immigrants’ are granted ‘local’ status as being essentially employed?
2) What are the trades and profession where deemed to be in short supply?
3) Why is this essential data not made public?
Current housing policy is a failure. Why after 60 years are we still saddled with these inept housing regulations?
Both locals and immigrants have a right to know? Does Housing Minister Terry Le Main know the answer? So Terry;
1) Just who is regarded as essentially employed?
2) Where is the data published?
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What is the point of this when the 5 year rule is blatantly ignored? People are being employed in the finance sector and many other businesses straight off the boat. States departmetns emply people well before they ahve been here 5 years ( police officers for example).If the States are not prepared to enforce this law then why are they bothering to increase the qualifying period – a sheer waste of time and taxpayers money. Far better to introduce a visa system or similar.
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Thank you Mr Le Main, the population is way too high and young locals are leaving, this move would be for the good of the island.
Jersey is full.
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It is only a small island and I have no problem with the quallies argument. If this was removed then all the middle rich from England and Europe would invade become residents so that they could take advantage of No death duties and No capital gains tax.Property prices would rocket.
The five year rule on the other hand is just crazy and thinking of upping it to ten years is even madder. Should a plumber have a lot of work on, for a short time he should employ locals but if none are available, how will he get his contract done. Also it makes Jersey even more expensive as locals demand a higher and higher rate of pay as they seek out the most desperate company for staff. Add employment legislation, you then have the perfect employment nightmare.
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What’s happening with the Human Rights Legislation because someone needs to do something soon, before this all gets out of hand.
The States make their own rules as they go along. There is already a depressed property market with a smaller range of mortgages available so how are people meant to buy, sell, and get that moving again when Terry Le Main keeps shifting the goal posts. Rethink the whole thing, housing, work permits etc and make sure the right people are coming to Jersey and staying here for the future.
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Presumably this does not apply to bank staff brought in who are not qualified and live in subsidised/free accommodation for a 3-5 year period?
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Racism at its best.
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Yet another crackpot idea from one of our senior politicians! I just wish they would stop making life even more miserable and difficult for hard-working Jersey residents, no matter how long they have lived in Jersey!
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There appears to be people who will moan about everything.
First they moan about dropping res quals to 10 years. You all moan.
They say they will raise the 5 year work rule to 10 years. you all moan.
They say that the population will grow to 100,000 and still you all moan.
Sorry but i am a little confused.
Do you want population control or not?
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What is the point of this? Most employers get round the 5 year rule as it is full of loopholes and applied with many discretionary exemptions.
Start fully implementing the 5 year law first!
Is this proposal just a smokescreen to justify the housing ‘qually’ period dropping to 10 years?
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Surely other work needs to be done before a policy like this could be implemented without it being to the detriment of the island as a whole. Is it not better to walk before you can run?
There are plenty of people that are actually essential to the island but are not classed as essential (low paid workers). On the other hand, if employment regulations were eased greatly then people would move here at a rate of knots (like some manage to do already) and that would cause major problems. A balance needs to be struck.
Every nation needs strict regulations on who can live and work within it, more so those with limited space, but it is probably impossible to get the balance just right. The EU have got it wrong since the only people benefitting from its regulations are those getting the opportunity to move to a more prosperous country! The regulations should benefit all.
In saying that, I certainly don’t think it’s intended to be racist! Funny that you never hear anyone referring to the visa system as racist.
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I hope this doesn’t just cause a further rift and a two tier society between those who have qualifications (either work or residency) and those who don’t.
People may moan about “outsiders” taking their jobs but in an island with almost 100% employment I think it keeps us locals on our toes and ensures people get necessary qualifications and experience if they know there is someone else who can do the job better.
We need to look at work ethic as well. It’s all very well for some cheering but if my children decided to work in the UK or the EU I wouldn’t want them classed as second class citizens.
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Yes we do want population control but we want something fair and non-discriminatory. Visas or work permits are the way to go – just bring in the people we need and then treat them well and house them properly.We can then get rid of the 1-1K and Jcat status and everyone can be treated the same. It works for the US, Australia and Canada so it can’t possibly be against human rights.
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Good idea, charity begins at home.
Lets look after our own first
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Does the education system in jersey teach its young students about human rights? I am classed as an immigrant but have family ties that go back way further than Terry Le Main and probably most of those who have made comments above regarding ‘immigrants’.
Its simple, Jersey sort out your own problems before turning on decent hard working people who make your Island work. As for young locals moving away, why are they moving away? Because theycan’t be bothered doing what us immigrants are prepared to do in the island – work!
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Remarkable comments. Having read the ‘protectionist view’, I now fully understand why last year’s Jersey Skills Survey identified ‘attitude’ as the man hindrance to filling job vacancies.
As for the mad race for people to immigrate to Jersey, don’t worry, that will end soon. There are changes in the wind for banking – and Jersey. Once the ‘issue’ of offshore centres is cleared up, The States will have to raise taxes to make up for the exodus of money from the island. Then for the first time, locally qualified residents will have to start paying their own way. Once taxes raise to a par with the UK and Europe you’ll have to beg people to move here.
After all… there are lots of nice beaches in the world, and after the knowledgeable, experienced, and worldly people with initiative leave Jersey, beaches are all that will remain. Give it 10 to 15 years, and Jersey will be a slum, matching its poor quality housing stock.
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i agree about getting the 5 years residence to work properly first,when i arrived in 1999 i got a job at a builders merchant advertised under the 5 year rule ,they offered me the job nearly straight away saying dont worry about the 5 years we can get round that easily
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i agree with that idea completely and i have got residential status at all
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It always amuses me that people moaning about racism then make the most racist comments themselves.
#17 and 18, Unbelievable! I’m an ‘immigrant’ here also, but if that is the utterly arrogant attitude the majority of the other ‘immigrants’ have then frankly I don’t want them here either! Who would want to share an island with such people?
Plenty of young people leave the island simply because the job they want to do doesn’t exist here, not because they are lazy (I can only assume you make no effort to mix with the islanders or you would know that already!) And as for the constant claims that the UK educate Jersey kids, the UK do not pay for their education so that is a load of rubbish. If the UK were to stop other nations paying them to educate their children, well, let’s see how long many of the Universities would be sustainable? I went to one of those Universities and also worked in its finance office, I know how heavily UK Universities rely on kids from other nations.
Maybe what Jersey needs before allowing people in is an attitude test? Presumably for some of the J-Cat positions going there are many much nicer, more tolerant people who would be queuing up to take them? There must be innumerous qualified doctors worldwide and they can’t all be arrogant bigots.
The problem is that low taxes will undoubtedly attract the greedy while the less greedy are likely to put their other family needs first. Greedy people tend not to be very nice. Maybe taxes should be raised, then those applying for J-Cat status will be those that value island life and wish to contribute to the community, not those wishing to make a ‘fast buck’ while making racist comments to those that were born and grew up here.
Jersey schools could produce plenty of future doctors and finance experts but not all kids want to do these jobs and it is wrong to make them. Jersey people are not in any way less intelligent so stop kidding yourself that you’re some God saving this island!
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Human Rights are an interesting thing, they seem to protect individuals but fail to protect nations. It’s naive to think the same laws can be applied to a land like Poland as can be applied to a small rock like Jersey (with limited space for population growth). When creating such laws you have to allow for the fact that overpopulating an area will destroy it in the long run, how is that useful for individuals.
Human Rights laws too often look at the short term effects not the long-term ones.
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I have recently come over from the main land to live with my long term boyfriend who is a bean. I am finding it incredible hard to get a job because of the 5 years. I do not see why I have to get married just to be able to work.
I understand the need for population control, but I think the details of the license need to be reviewed. I have moved here to be with the man I love and to live on an island which I adore, why must the states work against me?
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There are lots of skilled and educated immigrants on the island, which don’t read this comments, simply because they don’t have time to do that. They are working very hard, being paid minimal rates, and most impotant working well below their qualifications, just because they are not ‘locals’.
They do what you, locals, don’t want to do, because it is too hard and too miserably paid. Very often they live not even 2nd, but in 3rd class non qualified properties.
Don’t you think that after being your slaves for 5 years in fact they deserve to be treated a bit better ?
Perhaps before any one of you locals get some office or management position just because you are local (which is very often the case here) he or she should taste a job which immigrants are doing for you..
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Human rights are fundamental rights which humans have by the fact of being human, and which are neither created nor can be abrogated by any government.
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Someone #23, I can totally see your point. I’m lucky in that despite being in your position my skills are in short supply worldwide (not just in Jersey) but I still don’t get J-Cat status.
Unfortunately if such a restriction was lifted it would leave islanders open to people starting relationships with them just to get jobs and housing… it’s sad that these things happen but people all over the world do get into relationships just to get the ‘green card’ type status!
We do want to get married eventually but are not going to rush it just to make my life easier here.
Unfortunately in this case the same law that helps control the population (and protects islanders from being hounded by gold-diggers wanting a marriage of convenience), does go against people like you and me that are just genuinely in love with our men.
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24. Slawek
You will find that many local people have been doing these jobs for years and in fact still do. I’ve done my share of farm work, getting up at the crack of dawn and finishing when it was too dark to work any longer and then taking in sewing in the evenings and getting to bed at 1 or 2am! I certainly don’t look down on anyone who has to work like this and there are a lot of others like me.
Many local people also get paid the minimum rate and live in rented accommodation that isn’t brilliant. I’ve been there too – so don’t think we have all had it easy.
What is frustrating to local people is when you’ve worked very hard to gain the education and experience to qualify for an easier job and then you find someone walks straight off the boat into a job ahead of you, simply because the employer knows they have to pay them less. Even worse when the person gettingthe job has had a state funded free education and you have been denied a university education because over here it is not free unless you are very poor.
Slaves are people who are forced to work for nothing and have no choice about the matter – this is far from the case – no-one is forcing immigrants to come to Jersey – they are here entirely of their own free will. However we have no choice in whether we live and work here or not, we’re stuck here unless we move to the UK.
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You make Jersey sound like a prison camp with enforced hard labour for immigrants!
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if you look at all the jobs avaliable how many ask for five year residency answer two out of every hundred
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Slawek, I know some of these people, but I cannot agree that they are slaves. They were not forced to come here, they chose to. They take the jobs that locals don’t want but they were not in any way forced or even co-erced to take those jobs, they chose to.
If you really wanted to have a high-skilled job and use your degree then presumably you could have stayed in your own country in a job that used your qualifications properly? Which raises the question as to why you did come here (given how awful it is)? You must feel you are benefitting in some way or you wouldn’t have come here?
The fact seems to be that people are happily coming here and taking up low-skilled jobs because a low-skilled job here pays more than a high-skilled job in their own country. They are here for the money, and with many people less of this money remains in the Jersey economy than that earned by people already resident here.
I will not tolerate racist comments made towards me or anyone else, but I don’t feel that these laws are racist, they are there for a good reason. Hopefully amendments can be made over time, and as society changes, but there will still have to be some controls in place or greedy people with $ signs in their eyes will just arrive here in their droves!
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Leah (21) very mature and unbiased comments…I applaude you.
Slawek (24) comparing your work to slavery is rather pathetic…..no one is forcing you to do it!!
I work in a bank and we employ plenty of Polish workers who are doing very well for themselves. You seem to have grasped the english language well, but many haven’t so maybe this is holding them back. Also, have you considered that your “skills” or “qualifications” may not be required in the Jersey employment market???
Some Polish friends I had were qualified teachers in their homeland, but chose to work in construction because it paid better…..it is all down to choice and availability.
You’ve only been here a short while and already you bite the hand that feeds you…..some gratitude for having a job at all wouldn’t go amiss.
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“slaves” Mr Slawek (24) is a ridiculous comment indeed. Nobody has ever, ever forced anyone to come here or stay here. People choose to. If they didn’t have a good deal here then they would not stay, simple as that.
I totally agree with the sensible comments by Nellie Macon. Wwe should have some sort of visa system like most other civilised parts of the world, instead of just having open borders which allow anyoneh to just get off the boat here. Hey surprise surprise suddenly we have major London drug cartels operating here, did we naively think all that we would get are decent folk??!
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Terry needs to concentrate his efforts as the Housing Minister on improving the housing stock and the lot of all the people who contribute to Island life, both Locals and Migrant workers. This dispicable protectionism servers no purpose other than to provide a smoke screen to prevent opinion focusing on the real issue; His inability to help provide a decent living standard for all islanders. His tactic is to divide and conquer and by doing so he fails his post. He needs to take some positive action.
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I am really shocked by some of the comments on this forum.
I cannot understand we we constantly have an immigrant vs local argument as anyone who is working and paying their taxes is contributing to our island. Attitude is a big problem with locals and work ethic can be a problem too. As long as our kids can walk into a job when leaving school (and they still can) and they are choosing a job by salary and not something they have a passion for there will be a work ethic problem.
I am local and yet I often point out to my children the work ethic of the Polish who put everything into their jobs. I hope my children grow up with a similar sense of pride in their work.
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Tobias, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Some J-Cats and other incomers are naively assuming that all J-Cats and all immigrants are as wonderful as they claim to be. They have moved here purely out of the goodness of their hearts and because of their desire to save this ‘terrible land’ and those that live within it! I can’t imagine any of them even consider monetary gain when making such a decision.
My friends (having recently moved to the Netherlands for their work) have used their own initiative and money to start intensive twice-weekly classes in Dutch. Even though the population there is fluent in English, they think it is courteous to learn the native language of where they are living! They are also intentionally trying to make friends with Dutch people rather than just other Brits.
That’s the kind of attitude I would take when moving to a foreign land, it’s positive, it shows respect and it encourages integration. I haven’t spent any time with other Scots here, even though there are loads of us. It is the kind of attitude that will cause people to encourage you to remain there rather than to wish you would leave.
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Should have mentioned, my friend’s dad’s family moved here over 40 years ago with no English. They stuck to speaking English when possible to ensure they learned it as fast as possible, now you wouldn’t even know from their voices that they weren’t born here.
I’m not saying people should forget their native language, I won’t abandon mine, but I do think every effort should be made to become fluent in the Island’s main language and also to keep English as the language in the workplace (that way no-one can use a foreign language to talk behind other people’s backs). It’s simply polite.
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“Slaves are people who are forced to work for nothing and have no choice about the matter”
Peopole Who Are Forced. There are many different things which can force people to do other different things. It is not necessairly people, it can be economical situation, political, etc. Mentioned qualified teacher who works in construction for example – are you sure he is happy and has chosen this job completely on his own ? Is it realy all about the money ? Is it simple as that ? Or maybe not ? Maybe moneys is only a tool to achieve something else – not necessairly for spending more in bars. Maybe he or she have chosen to be construction worker because money allows him/her to assure better education for his children.
Perhaps for some of you it is just a choice spent on him/herself or on children education for example, for others perhaps it no question about it. Can you called the person with $$$ in his/her eyes in both cases? (sorry, no offence, this is just an example)
Back to the topic.
Leah Holmes – you’ve made very good point. They (we as I’m imigrant too but I’m intentionally using they) come here for money. Not all but most. Does it mean that they are greedy? In my opinon not more than local people demanding better job warranties. Do the tax system and law here are really so outstanding? Jersey goes toward “20% mean 20%” while Monaco still offers 0% personal income tax for example. But Monaco is for really rich. Another example – Cyprus charges 0% up to 19500 Euro.. Yet another Finland – charges 0% up to 12600 Euro and 8.5% up to 20800 Euro. Even nearby France – 0% up to 5000Euro, 5.5% up to 11200 Euro, 14% up to 25000 Euro + many benefits and deductions. So from income tax point of view for low paid imigrants there are quite a few good choises out there. Bearing in mind crazy home/flat rental prices on Jersey, fact that many immigrants agree to live in quite far from decent accomodation, agreed to being minimally paid, and working well below qualifications I wouldn’t assume that they decided compleletly free on their own, I would ratehr assume that there is something else which forced that people to agree for such a conditions. So perhaps they are slaves in some meaning, modern slaves. And there are many local people here on Jersey which benefit from that – so how all of you who are feeling offended because of ‘slavery’ call them ? And their ‘victims’ ?.
Now 32 Mr Tobias – does really my comment is so ridiculous ?
Another matter is that, if anything, it was not you ‘locals’ who force immigrants to come to Jersey.
BTW – To 27 Nellie Macon (and all others who felt offended by my previous comment and may be feeling offended by this one)- I’m very sorry, offendig or biting you was/is not my intention. I know that there are also many local people who also work very hard for minimal salary. I shoud not generalize. Apologize all.
My point is that ‘locals’ are not prohibited from getting better jobs while immigrants are for 5 years. And 5 years is long, really long and I think long enough – sentences for crimes are usually much shorter. Those who work here five years are still not considered fully local, they still cannot rent decent and (relatively) inexpensive accomodation, and are paying more for less (at least when it comes to housing). In my opinion they deserve to have a chance to get better job after five years. Or at deserved least not to be banned from getting better job.
I’ve heard quite a few cases about immigrants working couple of years here and not getting promoted. Instead someone new but ‘local’ was hired. To be honest I’ve also heard about immigrants being promoted after few years of hard work, but you working in the banks or financial instituion, having ‘better’ jobs, you tell me honestly how often this happens. And who is very first to laid off when crisis bites ?.
According to my knowledge gained from stories heard much less were ‘positive’ (I mean one worked hard starting as ‘shoe cleaner’, gets promoted ,etc, etc…)
Last – to 15. Nellie Marcon – I totally agree that VISA system would be far more better, more efficient in population control and more fair. Get on board people you want and treat them then equally like locals.
Alternatively – setup some posts in St Malo/Plymouth/Weymouth/any other place from where immigants may catch ferry/plane to Jersey saying –
“All Immigrants welcome to Jersey: come to work hard, live in shed, don’t expect good job and be prepared to go back home quickly as soon as we don’t need you anymore”
PS. To make things clear – I’m not writting my comments with my situation in mind.
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Yes, you are right – slavery which Slawek was talking about is quite different than slavery reinvented by UK’s people when colonizing new worlds in last few centuries. This modern slavery, which is quite similar to feudal relationships, does not involve hunting men and bringing them in ships from Africa to your households. Modern slaves spend all their money, in many cases taking a loan, to get into place where they finally can become slaves.
What about Chinese 8-years old children working 14 hours per day in exchange for a bowl of rice – will you call them slaves or not? They also have a choice – they can get their rice or not.
So I suggest that you stop pleasing yourself by medieval definition of word ‘slavery’ – the modern definition is much more complex.
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why dont we move away from the term slavery and speak more of inequitable exploitation otherwise we are going to go off at a tangent. the argument is then one of whether this exploitation takes place or not?
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I totally agree with Le Main here, I know enough youngsters actively seeking work yet at the same time I know enough newcomers finding work quite easily
I also agree with the “Jersey is full” comment – A & E is living proof!
Locals need to be the main priority in Jersey and the future of our youngsters will be more secure with these types of policies
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Leah Holmes, comment 21.
Firstly you talk of sharing the Island, this is an incorrect term. You live alongside others, there is no sharing involved, nobody owns Jersey, it is a democratic state.
Where I come from there is no local industry to speak of anymore. I originate from a mining town. When the mine was working everybody worked there, everybody enjoyed the benifits fo the mines and had good lives and did not moan about that being the only source of income.
Jersey has large sustainable finance industry offering jobs and security for those who are willing to work for it. It seems to me that Islanders only have a limited choice, but it is a good one.
Jersey produces plenty of doctors, nurses, and other proffesions. You are no diffrent from any other country in the world. You seem to suggest that all Jersey people should get more choice than anyone else in the world, that the children in some way are failed by government and that the root cause of this is people coming in and taking the land. Please jump down off your high horse before you hurt yourself.
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“Slaves are people who are forced to work for nothing and have no choice about the matter”
Slavek, although I’m an immigrant here I was educated with English as my joint-first language so I know exactly what the word means and you are not a slave. Political and economic situations may not be great back in your homeland (are they anywhere?) but you could still live. Did it ever cross your mind that it is the responsibility of all the citizens of a land to try and improve the situation there? It might be easier (for the individuals) to leave but does that help the nation as a whole? Also, does it ever cross your mind to be grateful that a land whose 3rd-generation inhabitants do not have any rights to work in your home country have allowed you to come work here? Frankly I don’t think you have the right to complain until all Jersey people are free to easily take up work in your homeland. They are free to work in my homeland and yet I’m not moaning on and on about my lack of rights here! Jersey people have more limited work options than you so their few options clearly do need to be protected.
Radek, comparing your decision to a child in poverty ‘choosing’ to work so it doesn’t starve? That’s totally unacceptable, frankly, it’s sick. The latter is a matter of life and death!
Do you think that all immigrants are lovely and friendly and make an effort to integrate well. They aren’t. Many staff in the Jersey service industry make no effort whatsoever to be polite, friendly, or even acknowledge the existence of those whose first language is English but chat happily with those who have the same native language as them (even while ‘serving’ the native English speaker). That’s just rude and I think such behaviour warrants sacking. Were I to work abroad, I would become fluent in the official language there and would treat all my clients the same, regardless of their nationality, more importantly I would do my actual job and speak the native language while doing it.
Immigrants making no attempt to integrate is causing more racism problems in the UK than the immigration itself. Racism is finally becoming an issue in my hometown due to Asian immigrants attacking white people (many of whom were born there)! Prior to these attacks it was known for being very well-integrated. What gives an immigrant the right to start causing problems in a land that has made them welcome? Did they actually come here to improve their life or just to bring all their own pathetic prejudices with them?
Frankly, as an immigrant here I am getting really sick of seeing how other immigrants are totally mucking it up for those of us that are trying hard to integrate and become part of the community here. I came here to be with the man I love (taking a pay cut to do so), but even then I’m not just doing a job, I’m doing it to the best of my ability and I’m trying hard to get involved with the community and get involved in unpaid work that benefits the community as a whole.
Try actually integrating and your opinion may totally change.
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Thank you Boris! Intelligent point as always.
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If people think this situation is as simple as just letting people have full employment rights after 5 years on the island then ponder this…
All the people that have currently been here over 5 years get full ‘Jersey rights’ and can start applying for any jobs. This could take a job from a perfectly suitable worker who already has full ‘Jersey rights’ (eventually leaving them without a home) and the States will have to support them. Some of them will have been born here, have all their friends and family here and will neither want to leave nor should be made to leave. Taxes will ultimately have to rise.
To replace the people that can now apply for any job another 5,000 people come to Jersey to take their old jobs. They fully intend to stay here long enough to also get full ‘Jersey rights’. They can then apply for any job putting someone else who already has full ‘Jersey rights’ out of a job. Again some of them will have been born here etc etc The States again have to support them and taxes ultimately rise.
And so the situation will decline until Jersey simply cannot sustain the level of unemployment and people needing States housing. At this point some of those original incomers will easily have the ability to leave and find work in any EU country. The others? Not so easy for them, they will be left to pick up the pieces of their lives and their island.
Who loses out? Everyone! Who loses out the most? The people who are 3rd (or higher) generation Jersey citizens… this IS Jersey, how can that possibly be acceptable to anyone (incomer or not)?
Maybe in choosing to come here people should be forced to entirely give up the employment rights that come with their nationality (permanently) and take up Jersey citizenship with the associated passport. Then they will also have to stay here when the proverbial hits the fan!
And without strict policies in place it will!
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with coming to the Island to make money. It is made abundantly clear that immigrants are not wanted in the long term (Quallies, 5/10 year rule). Immigrants wanting to come to the Island should do so and make as much cash as possible, what is wrong with wanting to succeed and make a better life?
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Anyone who has no choice but to work is by defination a slave. If you have true choice you could choose not to work if you didn’t want to.
Who has this choice? In reality only the very rich. Who controls what the rest get paid and their conditions? The rich. Who has choice over what and how they do anything and when they want to do or not do anything? The rich.
As per immigrants they are and always have been viewed as the bottom of the pile just look at any country in the world and see how they treat their immigrants. I think this is wrong but it is reality. Those coming to Jersey don’t need to pass any preset criteria to get in which is not the case in most countries. They can be unqualified, religious/unreligious, any orientation etc. This isn’t the case anywhere else, as there are always standards to be up to, so there are some advantages to coming to Jersey.
I myself have been to many places and experienced extreme prejudice to foreigners which is not so over here. They have a much easier ride than in many other places in the world. Jersey people are easy going and friendly on the whole and with Jersey’s natural beauty on a hot summer’d day it is hard place to beat. If you don’t believe me try somewhere like Australia and see how you get treated as an immigrant, then there’s the poisonous animals etc and sunburnt parched landscape where you can’t venture out in the sun for too long incase you get cancer.
I would say yes the accommodation issue is wrong but on the whole people that come to Jersey get far more out of it than staying in their often poorer and more dangerous homelands. Wages are higher than most places and taxes are fairly low. If they themselves don’t benefit much their children invariably do. Going to a foreign country is always a gamble but very few give as good odds as Jersey for those wanting to better themselves.
Finally if I was to immigrate elsewhere I would expect to get second class treatment as I was new. Locals always take priority in any country I have been to. I would ask anyone new here whether they would expect immigrants in their country to get the same or better treatment than them? I think you would find most people would say no.
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Mr Bob Hope, you clearly haven’t read my posts then as I am an ‘immigrant’ here!
Frankly that’s all I actually need to say to you.
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Adrian, you make some good points even though I don’t totally agree with you. Scotland treats immigrants pretty blinking well, unfortunately it is starting to show that this feeling is not returned.
Believe me people, I could totally understand if people were attacking a nation whose citizens were totally free to go work in their own countries, but given that most immigrants in Jersey are from member states of the EU then this is not the case. Some immigrants are attacking a nation whose own people are not at liberty to easily go work in the immigrant’s own homeland! How can someone know that and still speak of the inequality affecting them? How can they not at least acknowledge the inequality affecting Jersey people’s employment rights?
There are people like Boris on here who give the impression that they are in it for the long haul, genuinely willing to be in Jersey through hell and high water (as I am)… I can’t imagine anyone takes issue with that. When the proverbial (that everyone has a responsibility for helping create) hits the fan then there are those that will be at liberty to leave, and does anyone honestly think they won’t? There will also be those that are not at liberty to leave and their rights must be protected also.
We either have equality or we don’t! Some people being able to head back home the minute life gets tough is not equality when there are others that will have no option but to be stuck here sorting out the mess.
This is not a short-term problem, it is a long-term one and to form a short-term solution without understanding the consequences it would bring with it would be unbelievably stupid!
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Go for the VISA system. It has to get renewed every year, and you have to go back to your home country (at your expense) to renew it! I’m sure that will go down well with the people currently complaining since many people currently here probably just would not get granted a VISA!
I know what my friend went through with the VISA system, it will make it much harder for people to come to Jersey.
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Adrian I take it you have not considered moving to the UK ? You and any national from an EU country will be treated fairly and without being discrimated against by the laws of the land or the government – the same can certainly not be said for a British national moving to Jersey.
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Slawek and Radek you certainly seem to be portraying yourselves as the type of ungrateful immigrants we are increasingly and aggravatingly seeing in todays society.
What does Jersey owe to you? please explain this.
How is Jersey treating you like a slave (modern or medieval)? By your definition, it is your own homeland that has “forced” you to come and work in this apparent hellhole called Jersey and therefore forcing you into this alleged slavery.
Maybe a dose of reality is required for you. Most people would choose a job they would love to do, but essentially end up doing something that pays well instead. Work is mostly about earning for a better quality of life for ones family, but I agree it’s not always all about the money. However, we all need it to get by. Do you work for free?
Are you attempting to stereotype Jersey (or British people in general) with your comment about “not necessairly for spending more in bars”. Are you subtly accusing us all of only wanting to work to binge drink!?? Because of course that’s all we live for ??!!
State education in Jersey is free, you only pay for private education…. and guess what…the majority of local people can’t even afford it.
Out of interest, what is the tax levels for Poland?
I agree with Leah’s point about it being the natives responsibility to help improve the situation in their own homeland. Do you see a mass exodus of British people pouring into other European states demanding to be employed during these hard times???
I think diversity is great and i love the fact there are so many different cultures and beliefs. It makes life much more interesting. However, I am personally getting very sick and tired of all the immigrants who arrive, segregate themselves from their hosts, disrespect the laws and traditions (and language) of their hosts and generally treat their welcoming guests as if they owe them something for gracing them with their presence. More respect and gratitude is what should be expected then maybe you’ll get some in return.
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Radek, please look up the word slavery in the dictionary. “Slavery is a form of forced labor where a person” is compelled to work for another (sometimes called “the master” or “slave owner”).[1] Slaves are held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase, or birth, and are deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to receive compensation (such as wages) in return for their labor”. You are certainly not deprived of the right to leave and are free to do so at any time if you do not like it here!
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Adrian this is 2009, we should expect equal treatment all over the world (Human Rights movement – If your from Jersey you probably dont even know what this is) immigrants or otherwise should be treated equally. I take your point that this is not the reality, but usuing this to justify your argument that poor treatment of ‘immigrants’ into Jersey should be acceptable is not a viable argument on any view.
Leah Holmes you bang a simular drum. poor treatment of any human anywhere in the world is wrong. You cannot possibly srgue that it is o.k in Jersey beacuse the poor treatment is better than the poor treatment people get in other countries. poor treatment is poor treatment however you look at it.
Please think about what you are actually saying – in a nutshell you are saying that poor treatment of ‘immigrants’ is acceptable in Jersey, your arguments just do not wash.
Please do not respond with the human rights for Jersey residents arguments because I am talking about human rights for all, black, white, yellow, immigrant, jersey born. we are all the same what can you possibly not understand about this simple basic element of Human Rights?
The reality is you cannot stop people from coming to Jersey and working here. If you were able to it would be simular to a dictatorship. People are free to move whereever they wish, and people like you cant and will never be able to stop them.
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Leah
If all immigrants had your attitude, there would be a lot less ‘anti-immigrant’ feeling here. It’s unfortunate that not too many people here – whether Jersey-born or otherwise – share your ethics.
Your views are in stark contrast to many of the foreigners who have no intention of integrating, have little or no respect for Jersey, and just see £ signs. It’s clearly visible at many of the St Helier schools when the parents chatter away to their children in their native tongue, just leaving it to the schools to teach them English, obviously at the expense of the other kids.
Mr Slawek – instead of harping on about slavery and how you were forced to work in Jersey even though you it’s awful here and you miss your home terribly etc etc, perhaps you should take a leaf out of Leah’s book and either get on with it or go home. Honestly sir, you are not a slave, and you are free to leave at any time. Bon voyage!
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Adrian
I am sorry to say this but your post condones racism and discrimination. On the premise that no country accept immigration unless it is in it own interests, why should a country accepting you as a resident and a tax payer and someone who contributes to the national prosperity be allowed to treat you as a second class citizen?
Just because the Australians do it does not make it right; look at the way they treat their original inhabitants, would you justify that as well?
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To Leah Holmes. Apparently my English is not good enough to express my point clearly enough, or my comment was too long and boring to read it carefuly.
To keep it short: Do you want population and job market control ? Fine. You have full right as as local to demand local market protection. I’m not against.
My point is make it fair. Introduce visa system, tell potential immigrants in advance that they will have limited choice of jobs. And much higher cost of living. Higher comparing to Jerseymen on local market, and higher overall comparing to other nearby countries. Immigrants will get higher wages and lower taxes instead. That is a deal. That is a choice. Knowing all conditions.
Anyway – what we’re talking about. As someone pointed out – what’s the point of extending waiting period to 10 years while 5 is not obeyed. First it is just rude. It is like saying – we, locals, don’t want you here in fact – do your dirty (but only dirty) work and go home Mr Immigrant. Second it only shows that politician who invented this ‘briliant cure’ is just incompetent and clueless about how to deal with crisis.
After all – Leah Holmes do not be afraid to call things by their real name. If you do not name thing by it’s name, it doesn’t mean that the thing disappear or transform in something else. Slavery is not only related to violence, not only lack of choice. Not only when question is about to work or to die.
What I understand is, according to you, whenever someone has a choice then it is not slavery anymore. I can understand Radek – he just gave another example of relativity seen in your point of view, but just extended to insanity. Why you’re saying that it is sick ? Anyway according to you it is not slavery anymore if there is a choice. Any choice. Re-read Radek’s example. He just showed in magnifying glass what yout try to tell us – it doesn’t matter what choice it is – as long as there is some choice it is not slavery. So the child has SOME choice – he can eat his rice or not, or perhaps he can eat rice or eat grass or something else freely available instead, so it is not a question of live or death.
Is it sick ? Answer me please the question – at what point acceptable and healthy exploitation becomes unnaceptable slavery ?
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Well, there are two kinds of response I can give to you here… long one and short one.
Since it is quite late – I will stick to short one, and I will post the other (maybe) in near future.
I came to the island two years (+something) ago and I was just stunned by its beauty. I was also charmed by the friendly and open approach I received by local people – not only in work, but everywhere – on the street, in the shop, at the beach.
When somebody asked me what I think about the island – there was only one response ‘it is just a paradise’
I have to say that I still love the island – its nature, sea-views and cliffs – and probably I will never stop loving it.
In Poland we say “you will find true friends in hard times”… so you probably know what I should write next…
But no – I refuse to believe that what you are saying is a true face of Jersey people.
I understand that facing hard times people can get lost with their feelings, that hard times help to gain and build power to people like Mr. Le Main. Jersey is small society – but it looks like that every society has someone like our housing minister. In Austria it was Jorge Haider a few years ago, in Poland – Andrzej Lepper (it is real name – not disease – not sure which one is worse)… there are many such people, spreading xenophobic, nationalistic or racist ideas. And, like I have said, I do refuse to believe that his words are coming out from more than a group of fanatics or desperate men.
If, on the other hand, I am wrong by giving you such big credit – I will be the fist man on the plane out of here. Not because you want to live your life by the rule ‘Jersey air for Jersey people’ but because life it is not worth living among people with such attitude.
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Jersey is a small island of 40 square miles, it’s population has grown hugely, resulting in ugly building everywhere, a huge increase in traffic on the roads that often drives far too fast. There is rubbish thrown all over every road and in every hedgerow.
There are 7 billion people in the world and there is not room for them all here.
With the current recesession/depression there are simply not going to be enough jobs for the existing population, large banking job losses are around the corner. The population will decrease and a good thing too
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Leah, I find your comments on integration both condescending and naïve. I have been a resident in Jersey for over 10 years and have many close Jersey Friends as well as Irish, Portuguese, Polish and people from all parts of England. I am also married to a Jersey girl (for love, not Quallies). Judging from your posts you have not lived on Jersey that long yet you seem to think you can put the world to right on many the issues facing the Island. Maybe you should get out amongst the people of Jersey and see how well we all get along instead of typing long winded, ill informed essays on this website. Issues that hinder integration include: quallies, the 5 year rule and attitudes such as yours. So to echo a previous post please ‘climb down off your high horse’ step away from your computer and go out and see how Jersey actually really works!
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Carolyn’s comment has made me laugh – “walk into a job after school”
I left school with 10 GCSEs and 2 A levels and it took me 2 years to get a job as I didn’t have enough experience in the workplace – they kept giving jobs to non locals because they don’t have to get paid as much…When I eventually did get a job I had to agree to no perks like paid sick leave just so i could get my foot in the door…
it’s easy to see how some people who leave school with bad grades may want to just live off benefits – it’s easier when you have non locals taking all our work!
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And bear in mind I am an immigrant too! I came over when i was 11 but still I can see why some locals get annoyed with immigrants – I only get annoyed with the ones who make out their life is so terrible because Jersey have a quals rule – nobody forced you to come over here…and it’s not because “locals are lazy” it’s because locals don’t get the opportunities over here to get trained up as employers would rather employ someone they can pay less money to and who won’t need training.
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Unfortunately immigrants have never been treated equally and probably never will due to peoples nationalistic flag waving. I would say to immigrants why are you coming to Jersey? I believe it is because it is the easiest option than having to go through the process of immigration anywhere else. I would like to see someone try getting into the USA, Australia etc with no qualies, no money, no education, no English language. However in Jersey this doesn’t stop you coming here. Also Jersey is much better than where these immigrants are coming from isn’t it? So I believe they should be pleased to be have a nice place to live long term and for a future for their children. Yes I agree that the housing is an issue but when there is a shortage who should have priority, someone just off the plane, or a person who has lived here all their lives? Try asking this question in any country around the world and see what they say. I would be happy for everyone to have a nice house to live in unfortunately this is not always possible especially with an ever increasing population.
My ancester who came here faced all sorts of prejudice but he was here for the long term and thought the short term sacrifice was worth it for his descendents. He lived in rented accommodation and was poor all his life his children however did well and have theirs etc. Is no one happy to make a sacrifice now, do they expect everything now? I would be embarrassed to live in another country and then slag them off for not giving me what I wanted. I just wouldn’t go there if I didn’t like their way of doing things. I would ask any immigrants that post here would your country house immigrants ahead of you? I would be interested to here your replies. If they wouldn’t surely you don’t expect this treatment here?
An old saying comes to mind when in Rome do as the Romans do if you don’t like it don’t go there, you do have a choice you know. Jersey only covers 45 square miles and it cannot accommodate millions of people even if it wanted to. We will need population controls or the island will be ruined we cannot escape this fact no matter how much we don’t like it.
I also believe that the local population treat immigrants much better than most places in the world. Jersey people are on the whole easy going and friendly where else do you get this? Try immigrating to Australia and see how well you get treated there, especially if you can’t speak English.
I myself don’t mind anyone coming here but I would appreciate it if they were to respect local customs and ways of doing things and to treat the island and its people with respect as well. I think it is only polite to do so, especially if you want to be part of a great community. If you don’t like any of the above the best thing is to find somewhere else where you agree with the situation or are you only here for what you can get?
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Mr Bob Hope, again if you read my posts I have made it clear that I do not agree with the law 100% I only started arguing because people thought it perfectly acceptable to come on here and make utterly racist and bigotted comments about Jersey people… if you think such behaviour is okay then I hope I never meet you. And anybody living and working here does ‘share’ this island, sharing something doesn’t automatically mean you own it!
There are bad points everywhere, there are good points everywhere, there bad people among all groups of people as there are also good people. I made the point that the complainants chose to come here, and they did choose to come here. Their response was to make quite sickening comments about their ‘slavery’.
And I also pointed out that they have more employment options than Jersey people (and I think you’ll find that actually they do have more options than Jersey people), yet I don’t see them getting upset at how this whole system of moving freely between EU countries continues to penalise Jersey people do you? These are the kind of comments that can only come from truly selfish people.
The people that have come on here and complained have made it quite clear form their attitude that their only concern about this law is how it affects them! They have no concern or even any consideration for what long-term harm could be done by repealing such a law without taking the time to introduce other laws first. I don’t think they’ve even considered that a law change implemented now wouldn’t come into force in time to help them anyway, laws don’t get written in a day!
I wish I could be as selfish as they come across as being, but it’s not the way I was raised.
And as for the accommodation situation, did you know that there are a number of people in Jersey who have been here long enough to have their qualifications and have a high enough income to buy a better property here but they still choose to live in the same apartment they lived in when they first came here? Why? Because as their income has increased they have simply seen the opportunity to send more money back to their home country! That is not benefitting Jersey. And this is not just one instance. Some such people have built lovely homes back in their home country (from the money they’ve made here) that they intend to retire to, but alas some have just got caught in a cycle of greed so they choose to live in relative squalor here while a lovely home that they own lies empty! If you bothered to mix with the various nationalities of people that live on Jersey you would discover these things pretty quickly.
I’m trying to point out that there are so many things going on that these self-proclaimed ‘slaves’ haven’t even bothered to think about. They are only caring about how the law affects them personally. This isn’t some black and white situation, it’s a lot more complex than that!
Radek, I have never and would never ask you to leave, I just want you to understand that by attacking the Jersey people on a public forum you are just making life harder for other immigrants like me that are trying really hard to integrate and who intend to be here through thick and thin. Can other immigrants please understand that their behaviour affects ALL of us immigrants, not just themselves?
I am not willing to be attacked for being an immigrant just because of someone else’s racism!
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And Bob, stop kidding yourself that people are free to move wherever they want! They are if they are from an EU member state.
I am from ACTUAL equality, meaning if people can move here from Serbia, Latvia… that Jersey people can just as easily go there.
You’ll see in my last post how some people that complain about their living conditions continue to live there even when they have the option to not… you are assuming that the complainants on here would use the money they earned to rent or buy a better property here, they may not, they may well just keep the higher income and send it well out of Jersey’s economy!
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Bob Hope – one final thing… immigrants do not get treated any different to locals – the quallies rule is NOT an abuse of human rights and if you honestly believe this then I suggest travelling some more to open your eyes to REAL breaches of human rights.. again I say try and live somewhere else and you’ll soon see how hospitable jersey is compared to most other places.
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Just to make it clear, when I have mentioned locals or natives I am simply referring to the people that already live on the island when you arrive… they will take many nationalities and will have been here differing lengths of time.
I have had racism directed at me from other immigrants simply because to them I don’t ‘look’ like an immigrant so they assume I’m not. Apparently I get to have some especially difficult status where I’m not accepted by other ‘immigrants’ because I can’t be a true immigrant what with having English as one of my first languages but I AM just as affected by Jersey laws as them! It just goes to show again that the problem is not just with Jersey people or Jersey laws, some immigrants themselves are causing a problem that just doesn’t need to exist, and this will continue to make ‘anti-immigration’ feeling grow.
I have had friends move to South Africa, the Netherlands, Italy… every single one made learning the native language their priority. It is amazing what a difference that makes to how you are perceived. It shows respect to the locals and to your colleagues.
As immigrants it is our responsibility to make it clear that we have chosen to come here because we actually want to be here and be part of Jersey life, not because we just want to seek out other people from our home country and send as much money as possible back home while acting like we are some kind of God saving Jersey! It is not enough to just work hard and obey the law, we have to show courtesy and respect to our ‘hosts’, their customs and their language. We ALL have a part to play and some immigrants are seriously letting the side down and are ruining it for the rest of us.
And nobody cares if people are just here for the money if they would just admit it and stop pretending they are here out of the goodness of their hearts to save the Jersey people from themselves. How patronising and insulting to Jersey.
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Fed up, while you’re post is probably well-meaning, if you read mine you’d understand that I just don’t want my life made harder (and that of other immigrants here) due to the few that are being completely racist to Jersey people. If you have a problem with that then you have a problem!
I have always stated that there are plenty of wonderful people here whether they have their quallies or not, but I have personally met many making NO effort!
I wish it was patronising and naive, but it’s just realistic!
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And I know plenty of Jersey people, at least two of whom have worked hard since leaving school but who live in the exact same environment as some of the people on here that are complaining. Yet, THEY are not complaining or being nasty to others.
This is a housing problem on a small rock with limited space, claiming it as racism is naive.
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Lulu, the problems you faced finding a job when you left school are faced by all school leavers all over the world. You cannot blame non locals for what is a world issue.
As for people with poor grades choosing to live on benifits rather then face the world, this is a very small percentage, and anyway the taxes the non locals pay, pay for their benifits.
If all ‘non locals’ were banished from Jersey, you wouldnt have enough people to fill in the jobs, so I do not think you have anything intelligent to say other than you had a difficult time when you left school – poor you.
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Leah, It is very naive of you to comment on immigrants being racist to locals given the amount of racism shown by locals to Portuguese etc over the years. Judging by the amount of comment you write on this forum you obviously have a lot of time on your hands. I suggest that your time be better spent seeing the real Jersey and not the one you think exists on this forum. If you had moved here on your own and faced the restrictions that other immigrants face I ‘m sure you would have a very different opinion.
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All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Humans have a right to be free of prejudice. Forcing non quals to pay higher than local rents, live in poor unregulated accomadation is prejudice agaisnt those people who have no option but to live in those conditions.
The typical response to my statements above is either A) Your are not forced to live here, B) If you dont like it go home, or C) Its better treatment than you get in other countries. These are clearly ill-informed and rascist reactions. The non locals pay for this Island in many ways, Jersey would be nothing but a pathetic, but beautiful, little rock in the middle of the Channel if it were not for people like me and those above who in the face of rascism and mindless comemnts stay here and work like decent honest human beings.
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I am really amazed at how complicated everyone is making this argument.
I lived in Jersey for 7 years enjoyed the beaches, the lifestyle made some money and paid my taxes. I still have many good memories. I knew the rules when I came to the Island, the price of housing, the expense and the limited choice of goods and in the end things to do.
I didnt rant on about this or blame locals for being racist or start screaming about human rights. I packed my bags and left. I now have all the things I could not get in jersey and even live next to some beautiful beaches. I do thought find the comments about slavery deeply disturbing, Slawek perhaps it is your chip on the shoulder, that limits you in what you can get out of life. I suggest you break free from your miserable existence, book a ticket with your filthy Jersey pounds paid by your local racist slavemasters and get on the next boat.
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LOL at Fed Up. The JEP should give Leah Holmes her own blog on the site and be done : )
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I came over here 25years ago in the full knowledge that I would have no rights to even rent a property until I had ‘qualified’ for 20 years. I put up with things in service and on low pay. When eventually I got that piece of paper with my quallies in my hand… I knew I had earned them.It was my choice.
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I don’t Fed Up, but I work freelance on my laptop and I take breaks as and when I need them… again people making assumptions.
I face the same restrictions as others but I choose to make the best of a bad situation. I don’t have a vote or I would use it, you do? Are you using yours to better the life for ‘incomers’?
You’re lucky that all the people you’ve met are so wonderful… the people I’ve met are not all wonderful.
I could throw all the high horse stuff back at you easily but I don’t assume someone relating their experience is being on their high horse
I have every right to be angry at people who are not helping my time in Jersey by coming on here and calling people (like your wife) not only ‘racist’ but ‘thick’ and having made comments like ‘YOU people should be grateful that we’ve come here to save your God-forsaken island’.
Still if you have no issue with such posts that’s your problem. I only started arguing because comments like that being made by some immigrants affect all immigrants!
I don’t doubt Slawek’s comments were made out of frustration and I feel for his situation.
Wouldn’t it be great if we did live in a world where everyone was free to go wherever they wanted, be protected by the Government of any nation they chose and get a good job and home there? It would, course it would.
Life isn’t like that, there are too many greedy, selfish people to make such a world workable.
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Radek, my opinion of you has changed since your last post (55) and it is people with your attitude that are welcomed with open arms. Unfortunately there are too many ungrateful people who feel they are owed a better life by their hosts….those people ruin it for everyone else.
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We have managed to circumvent rational thought thus far, lets just carry on and ignore the pesky outsiders. I mean! we have a healthy residential apartheid system, a fabulously cranky government, unfair tax practices, and a thriving tax evasion “operation” (to quote our chief minister on Panorama….) Lets just turn a blind eye and look the other way and perhaps those nasty demons will eventually go away!
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Leah, What about the locals stealing from you plate, you dont talk about them? Your entire argument is based on money and how this will affect you and the Islanders – you ignore the basic fundementals of Human Rights which is to live where you want and not be subject to prejudice, maybe a small Island is the best place for people like you, because in the real world you are nothing.
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Mummylou thanks for your story, but ask yourself is what you have been through right?
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50% of the Islands working population are non locals – thats 20,000 people in an Island of a population of 90,000. Nearly a quarter of the people you attack make up your own Island. Of those at least 10,000 have non quals. Gove them a voice, do not supress them, let them speak and listen – for if not you will fall to the dogs (Roman theory)
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Last week housing minister ‘stroke’ with ‘major decision’ about J-cat cuts which he is going to implement. He also claimed that he already refused a number of applications.
So what? Should we believe that on the island business is as-usual?
Yes – I sow such note – on Woolworth’s doors in November – ‘dear customers we are pleased to inform that in our store business as usual’…
Mr. Le Main most likely had refused number of J-applications every moth – the only difference now is that currently there is missing another number – number of J-applications which have been approved – because, most likely, business is not as usual, and, most likely, business has no money to invest in J-cat specialist right now.
This week bring another ‘major decision’ – changing 5 into 10 years. Absolute disaster… I knew several people who had reached this magic ‘5 years’… Have they started a new life then? Have they started new careers? They continued the work where they worked before and after a year more – they left. On the other hand – people who really do like the island – is there a difference for them to wait 5 or 10 years? Does this really matter?
Jersey needs immigrants and immigrants need Jersey. We do not always like each other, each of us has different story to tell – but in the end – we need each other.
As housing minister Mr. Le Main surly know the facts, the real numbers. I doubt that they are worth talking about.
But… we have entered hard times… most likely we will be facing much more important ‘moves’ coming from different ministers offices…
And you know probably famous ‘Divide et impera’ – it will be much, much easier to control situation when people stop relaying on each other, stop trusting each other…
It is just unbelievable how easy you can start the fire of hate and how much you can gain by this.
And, I must admit, I allowed to be manipulated like a 5-years old boy.
Well done Mr. Le Main, Well done.
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Leah Holmes – wrong assumption. I thought that I clearly enough stated I’m not writing about my situation. I live here with my wife and little daughter quite happy life. I’m not shouting at every person met, looking like ‘local’ – hey you b… local racist give me better job. No. So do not be afraid – my behaviour or attitude doesn’t affect your position.
Why I wrote my comment was because I have quite a few colleagues here who actually face problems with their job just because they are non locals. Few of them have degrees and didn’t get promoted – instead someone new was hired. Stories goes all the same. Shortly after everyone realized that newcomers has no or little experience, and are not qualified enought – but newcomers were local. So stayed, or were replaces with another newcomer, but ‘old’ non-local staff didn’t get promoted.
What I also can see is the huge difference in betwen
No, I’m not frustrated. If I didn’y use ‘slavery’ no one probably bother to answer, or think a little bit longer.
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I am an immigrant i have lived here for nearly 3 years on the island.
i do not claim benefits, i have worked from the word go and only stopped when we had our daughter.
What disgusted me on this island is that a true Jersey born, my fiance, found it so damn hard to find a job here. He didnt have any academic qualifications when he left school so finding a job was impossible when employers were faced with employing him or cheaper, immigrant staff.
Jersey needs to clean up its act with immigration. I am an immigrant, but i am not a slave. And i dont ask for handouts or anything in return for living here
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Unfortunatley I don’t think human rights really exist. Governments pander to this idea but in reality do we really have human rights? I don’t think so.
Just look at Jersey for example locals without an EU national grandparent are treated as second class citizens in the EU. Immigrants to Jersey have to live in often bad accommodation till they have qualified so they too are treated as second class citizens, but at least that ends after 5 years, those with strong island links will forever have this prejudice against them. Also these immigrants decendents will become affected with the passage of time I wonder whether they even think of this?
Jersey should be in the EU as far as I am concerned then all this rubbish would be done away with over night. I am local and don’t agree with the finance we have as it affects others around the world. It has caused the indiginous population to be marked out from the rest which as far as I am concerned is racist. We are not different from the rest because our grand parents were born here but we are treated as if we are. So as far as I am concerned finance is responsible for this discrimination against locals as without it we wouldn’t be outside the EU. Also because of finance we have had massive immigration which has not been good for Jersey’s environment etc. It causes discord and strife as many third world countries struggle under opressive loan repayments to western countries that have exploited them for 2-300 years, slavery being but one angle. They then face their best earners avoiding taxes by using places like Jersey which is legal under law. However is this law right? I don’t think so.
The main problem with Jersey as I see it is that it is a point where the richest and big business can prevent due taxes being paid legally to poorer governments who could use this money on infrastructure if they so wished. Should anyone have the right by law to affect others often in poorer countries just so that they can have gainfull employment?
Jersey sucks in so many immigrants because it has become too prosperous as far as I am concerned. What I mean by this is that whereas in the old days most things were done by those on the island, as people have become more affluent they have outsourced those jobs that are seen as too hard or dirty, however someone has to do them. Yes immigrants do do this jobs but this is so all over the world as every country does the same thing, so until peoples attitudes change worldwide nothing will alter will it? However as with all immigrants they come to the end of their working lives and with this fresh immigrants must be sort to plug the gaps as these immigrants children take on the same outlook as the locals, i.e that job is not for me. So all we are doing is opening Jersey up to never ending immigrantion with all the resultant problems in such a small place.
I believe Jersey should have population controls purely because it is too small to absorb everyone who wants to come here as it is much better than their homeland. I also believe it would be better to improve the lot of people in these other countries which would then mean they wouldn’t probably want to leave. I can’t believe anyone really wants to leave their homeland if they could become successfull there. The driving force is uselessly economic and nothing else unless they are discriminated against at home. So I would say everyone coming to Jersey is expecting and wanting a better life style or else they wouldn’t be here.
As Jersey wages are high compared to many places, even on the minimum wage, people will flock here to use it as a method to shortcut their route out of poverty. There is nothing wrong with this at all as long as they make a fair contribution along with everyone else. It is unfair to burden a country with lazy people just look at the UK. Jersey has managed to stay clear of this so far by making it much harder for immigrants to do the same here.
PAYE has also gone a long way to prevent seasonal workers coming here and using the previous system to their benefit.
Where the main issues with immigration comes is the fact that they are exploited by others for personal gain. This is wrong becasue it actually causes racism. It sets the locals against immigrants as they see them as taking their jobs, whilst the immigrants feel used. However the real cause of this is those who wish to exploit labour. It is obvious that anyone in this capitalistic system will use the cheapest source of labour. I believe in a caring society this would be banned. If these minimum wage jobs were paid at a proper rate there would be no excuse for locals not to do them would there? This would mean less immigration as there would be no jobs left for others. How can anyone local on the minimum wage pay their way over here? The answer is they can’t. This is where the immigrants get used and abused as businesses know that they can get overseas workers for a lot less. Unfortunately if these overseas workers are so poorly paid in their home countries they will come and be exploited. If they didn’t do this the local businesses would be forced to up their wages for these jobs or go out of business as you can’t run a business without labour can you?
I have nothing against anyone coming here to live and work but there must be limits Jersey cannot absorb 1 Million people for example it is not practical so the line will have to be drawn at some stage. Yes people should have freedom of choice but even so called locals don’t have that in the EU.
I think the best way around all these problems would be for every finance centre to be shut down then this widescale movement of people around the world would be curtailed as if everyone was paid around the same there would be no monetary incentive for them to migrate elsewhere this would stabilise the world and protect the local envronments more as well as reducing racism as there would be very few people to pick on. I have also found when local populations feel threatened economically racism always rears its ugly head as anyone who is different is blamed this unfortunatley is the consequences of nationalism where divisions cause some people to think they are superior to others. I know no one is better than anyone else and neither are they worse. However I believe many hold the opposite view and this is where problems begin.
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Reading all of this self-righteous and arrogant palaver, I am stunned. Most of the comments are so far removed from reality that’s hard to believe. I can only hope that Sarkozy will succeed regulating offshore banking and I will have zero empathy with the financial downturn that will follow. The way most of you treat people that you invited because nobody has the qualification to do their jobs (J-cats) or those slaving away to keep profits high in the agribusiness is amazing.
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Michel I didn’t invite anyone here the states did. Neither did I set the rules for occupancy, the states did. I had to do 20 years before I could buy a property it is now 12. A friend of mine had to wait 20 years for his qualies and it meant he was too old to get a mortgage. He still rents to this day. Is this fair?
I don’t treat people any differently due to who they, where they come from or what class they come from. However many others do. I sometimes get looked down on by others because of my job but I just laugh and think of the John Cleese and Two Ronnies sketch from the sixties I believe. It summed up class structure rather aptly which we still have. I find it rather absurb that others think because they have more money they are better than others.
As for J-cat jobs many local people could be trained up for these but the states seem to persist in the antiquaited idea that someone from the uk knows better as far, as I am concerned. I say no they don’t as often they bring their UK ideas with them that don’t work here. We are not part of the UK so why do we need these so called experts?
Yes we need some specialists like hospital surgeons etc but you can’t tell me a local person cannot become head of Police, Fire etc? There is no need to import all these people as many of these jobs could and should be done by local people who understand the environment in which they come from. If there is a requirement for J-cats why does it nearly always have to be from the UK what’s wrong with the rest of the world? Aren’t there many more highly qualified people outside of the UK which might want to come here?
As regards labour in the agri-business it appears to me that they employ the cheapest labour they can find. I think this is wrong as everyone should be paid a fair wage however as we know profits are what businesses want and the bigger the better. I believe because of the business requirement to maximise profit that we will get more and more immigration to drive down all local wages whether migrant or local as this can be the only logical outcome.
Mind this is exactly what is happening in the UK as well. As is often seen when wages are reduced by migrant labour there is an increase in racism. This can lead to more unrest than would otherwise have been.
Yes everything needs a proper look at over here but one thing is for sure we need a limit on the population and how does one go about that? If finance were to go this would probably reduce the population to a more sustainable level. My view is that we should get out of finance as soon as possible, and get into something that is free of adverse publicity. However the states appear to have taken the easier option of continuing along the finance route to the cost of everything else. I believe at some stage we all could come to regret this state of affairs.
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Slawek, fair cop, sounds like your situation may actually be better than mine. I have never suggested your position affects me though, it couldn’t, we’re both immigrants here. Neither of us wrote these laws but the proper way to change them is get those that already have a vote onside. That will not be done by attacking the island or those that already live here.
Oh dear Bob, I just have to be glad that I was raised to think that someone disagreeing with me does not give me the right to be rude and attack them personally. Still, I’m not sure what comments you’re reading because my arguments are neither based on what’s best for me, or about money (although you gave my mate a laugh, he knows my dislike of money). I’ve made it clear it’s not about me, I’m ‘happy’ to go along with a law since I chose to come here knowing it existed. Once I have a vote I will use it but I don’t have one yet. I certainly don’t feel and haven’t suggested that anyone is ‘stealing from my plate’! How ridiculous. And I have also argued that plenty of people that don’t get J-Cat status are just as essential to the island as those that do. I don’t see you arguing about that inequality!
It is everyone’s right to be free from prejudice, and thankfully I live a happy life not judging people on anything other than how they treat others. People that judge on race or religion etc. just miss out on a lot of life frankly. I don’t even have time for ‘positive discrimination’ because as far as I’m concerned it’s still discrimination. Take the ubiquitous comments on Barack Obama being ‘African American’, surely if we are truly not discriminating it should just be ‘American’ or do we still feel the need to intentionally segregate (be it positively or negatively) the President of America from other (non-African) Americans?
Last time I checked, however, it was not our Human Right to go wherever we want and assume a job and the protection of that nation. I don’t know where you got the idea that it was. It may be that you haven’t actually given any thought to what would arise from a liberty like complete travel freedom… I have! In theory it would be a fantastic thing but I’m not sure what world you’re living in because in this world it simply isn’t workable. In such a ‘free-for-all’ Earth some countries would be virtually abandoned, some totally overpopulated (and too fast) and the only people that would manage to benefit at all would be the rich and criminals (as always). Do you honestly think that in such a world the average man (like the people on here) would have any rights? Human nature wouldn’t allow for it, and I’m not talking about racists, they would be the least of our problems, I’m talking criminals, political terrorists… it just would’t work.
It always angers me when the word ‘racism’ is used as a bullyboy tactic against people who simply aren’t racist, because the only way to get issues like these Jersey laws solved is to be able to speak frankly without fear of attack.
Bob, I could suggest that maybe you need to spend some time outwith an island to learn about real life. Live in the UK for a while and see what happens without strong immigration laws. Because of human nature immigration does need to be carefully handled. Again, it would be great if that wasn’t the case, but it is. Immigration happening too fast has simply meant people setting up their own segregated communities, that is presumably not what you want from your ‘free-for-all’ world? I have stated that the Jersey laws should be changed IF there are other laws in place to protect Jersey from potential long-term problems like over-population, unemployment, lack of housing… what part of that are you struggling to understand?
Something has to be done, but it has to be done with a lot of thought and it needs to be a plan that works long-term not just short-term.
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There are jobs that we need J cat’s for based on our size of population and the spcecialism’s required. Unfortunately many, many, jobs that currently have J Cats in them could be done by local people (either local born, 5 years resident, 12 years or whatever, just aslong as theres a commitment to the island).
The finance industry is at the heart of the problem, failure to train staff and give them opportunities is endemic at a senior level. Very often these roles are given out to someone from the wider parent even with local strong applicants. I suspect the reason being that Jersey has in the past been attractive and therefore the competition is even strong.
I’m sure you could look at many management boards locally and not see a single person that’s come from within the local business. This then breds further recruitment of more junior roles and the senior member builds a team from the people he knows.
Unfortunately we all know the five rule is a joke in many businesses. So tem years isn’t going to make any difference.
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Are any of the authors of these posts Jersey born of Jersey born parents and grandparents? If there are then surely the real Human Rights issue is the stamp in a Jersey Passport that states,the holder of this passport has no right of abode or right to work in the EU, or words to that effect,I’m not directly quoting as I’m foreign. I find that very annoying.Everybody (almost) can work here but my stepfather can’t go to Britain or Europe to work.
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There must be a reason why local businesses are employing non-Jersey folk. Are there no qualified local folk for the job? Maybe they just don’t want to do the work. If so ,then a five-, ten- or 50-year wait will make no difference as there will be no local person who will want the job. So, to keep the economy on the go, open the doors. Politicians elsewhere are already telling us that protectionism is not an answer to the current global financial climate.
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Doddy, your stepfather can work in UK or Europe, many stamped Jersey people do and the governments tend to turn a blind eye, as they have better things to do. But if he wants to work legally, then apply for a job. If he is good enough and his skills are needed he will get sponsorship into that country. Bit like Brits wanting to work in the Commonwealth country of Australia and when allowed to work legally he will have all the rights as any local of that country. So where is the Human Rights issue? Jersey allows you in, gets you to pay tax, social etc, but you are restricted on where you live and the type of job you can do. You are not treated the same as locals, unless your skills are needed by the Island and you get a ‘J Cat’ permit to live here.
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I have the stamp in my passport and have worked legally with the relevant authorities knowledge in other European countries. Most of them have never heard of Jersey and are only interested in whether you are a British citizen or not.
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I think the same rules should apply to both sides so if Channel Islanders want to go to Europe they are treated the same as EU nationals coming here then there is no room for arguing about it. I think to have a stamp in a passport is demeaning and racist as it makes it obvious that some are different to others in Jersey just because they don’t have a grandparent who is an EU national. What difference is there between a grandparent and a great grandparent as regards nationality? I say none. It is just an arbitary line drawn by the bureaucrats.
I think by having this stamp it enforces the stereotyping of differences between peoples and we all know where that can lead.
The easiest way to resolve this, I believe, would be for the Channel Islands to negotiate their way to becoming full members thus removing barriers to free movement of people where practically possible. We are all part of Europe are we not? If the Channel Islands really want to go it alone, they should cut all ties with Europe and be outside it just like other trading blocks with all that this entails, a half-way house is no good for anyone, as far as I am concerned.
As per employing non-local staff, reasons for this could be they are cheaper, less likely to complain, easier to get rid of when they aren’t wanted anymore, easier to fill temporary posts, and specialist skills which no one in Jersey has etc.
I believe immgrants shouldn’t be used as a source of cheap labour as it is wrong. Nationality shouldn’t affect what one gets paid in a job. However, as we all know, this is common practice all over the world and is what free trade thrives on.
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Yes squirrel but you chose to come over here knowing those were the laws. Nobody chooses to be born in Jersey – it just happens and, unfortunately, if your family are all from Jersey you can’t live and work in the EU. The government does not turn a blind eye and can evict you and prosecute you for being an illegal immigrant.
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Lula, my partner is going to get the stamp removed from his passport next week, the law is so mucked up he didn’t even know that he could (his dad was born in an EU state so it should never have been put on his passport in the first place!) Should make things easier.
And you are very right about people not having the choice to be born here. I think a lot of people have forgotten that fact while making their arguments. Some also forget that there are people that were born here in badly paid jobs and very poor accommodation. This is not about racism (no matter how much some want that to be the case); individuals see an opportunity to hike up their rent rates and they do it, companies see an opportunity for cheap labour and they take it. It’s totally wrong but it happens everywhere, and if Slawek and Radek had said ‘no’ to this, someone else would have said ‘yes’, and so it would have gone on. Unfortunately the world is not full to brimming with moral people, there are plenty of greedy folk out there. Do the States have the authority to cap rent rates? Not that I know of. They can however stop companies bringing in cheap labour, but that is all they can do to stop this exploitation (although all governments tend to bow to business), but then that is considered racist… so how does this problem get fixed?
I know many people want a visa system but I can only assume that they have never had the stress or expense of having a visa renewed every year… nor have they considered that they simply may not get a visa. I don’t always agree with Adrian but his last paragraph makes a very good point. I will agree with him also that this ‘half-way house’ situation is no good for Jersey. Jersey really gets the rough end of being tied into it (in one direction only) through being a Crown dependency. I would never suggest that Jersey joins the EU though. Governments signed up to the EU not the people (so sure were the governments that the people would say no that most didn’t even get a referendum), and even the people that were for it are quickly wanting out. It hasn’t worked because some countries get away with paying lip service while weaker countries (like the UK) go along with it to the letter. The British taxpayer is currently paying for a number of people in jail who should be deported, they made their beds after all, but the EU gets in the way. I guess there would be no chance of such people coming to Jersey? No, of course not, only good people would come to Jersey. As Bob would like, it would be great if everyone were free to go anywhere but I, for one, won’t be rushing off to Sri Lanka, Iraq, Sudan… The problem is most of the traffic would be one-way. Who would govern each country? How could they handle such an increase in population? My guess? They would, slowly but surely, end up introducing immigration laws. Maybe it’s worth considering why immigration laws came about in the first place, there must have been a problem first that then required a solution.
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You can live in very nice non qualls accomidation if you can afford it – and you can get some very good jobs if you have the skills needed to get into a high earning job, however a lot of immigrants don’t have much in the way of skills – some barely even able to speak english and then the locals get accused of breaking human rights?
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It’s very, very, simple ….. if we want bona fide passports and equal rights to work and live in the EU, then we must join the EU. But don’t expect to be able to circumvent the rules or plead for special treatment like the old days. Ooops! was that the unpopular view!
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Fine with me as along as islanders have to wait just as long to get a job in the UK. You guys moan about there not being enough room, well we also feel we don’t have enough room to accomodate more immigrants. Reciprocal agreements and all that.
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Leah and LULU you have both confirmed the following:-
a) you have struggled to establish yourself in Jersey
b) you think the non-quals situation is bad
Human rights aside and without creating a 20 paragraph comment, you basically agree that ‘immigrants’ are treated poorly in Jersey.
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Perhaps they should create a Best Immigrant Award, the catagories would be something like :
a) length of time in poor unregulated non quals accomadation
b) the amount of times they were told to ‘go home if you dont like it’
c) being reffered to as an ‘immigrant’ on a daily basis and treated as an outsider.
The winner could receive a Golden Ticket and get the chance to a new life amongst the locals.
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Doddy
Yes I have that stamp on mine, not complaining about that as I am totally in favour of immigration policy, however I just wish it worked both ways and Jersey would approve / disapprove potential immigrants based on whether or not they’d be of benefit to society.
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The problem is overcrowding, Jersey cannot sustain 100,000 people there simply isn’t the room!
However, restrictions on employment are a very bad way to solve this problem, it acts as a barrier to talented people coming to the island, and they’ll still pay income tax for the privilege.
By all means increase housing quallies – I think everyone should have the right to work but not the right to own (or buy and rent out) Jersey’s limited housing.
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Maybe if those coming into the island had the stamp put in their passports once they had qualified to live here then they might change their tune on this? This would give everyone in Jersey the same passport or do others deserve better because they are immigrants?
If not then Jersey needs a proper immigration scheme like Australia who are only interested in immigrnats who will be of benefit i.e. pay their way to them. However, if Jersey did this then many coming here would be barred due to no qualifications, inability to speak English, no money etc. Is this what the immigrant community want over here?
Also as per these immigrants moaning about things how did they treat immigrants in their own country? I wonder if they got annoyed with them or if they thought they were a great addition to their community? I would like to here some of their views on this. If they didn’t like immigrants in their own country then is this not a case of double standards?
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I don’t think immigrants are treated poorly at all. I think they get a much better deal here than they would anywhere else. There is sub-standard accommodation for qualified people as well – and it’s not hard for a non qualified person to get a great house. I lived in a non qualified two-bedroom flat for £800 a month two years ago… it’s just about waiting for the right property and finding the right landlord (same as if you have quals or not.)
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