Jobs: It will get worse
Thursday 5th March 2009, 3:00PM GMT.
TREASURY Minister Philip Ozouf has issued a stark warning to Islanders to prepare for some difficult months ahead following the news of job cuts at Royal Bank of Scotland International.RBSI announced yesterday that they were losing 90 jobs at their offshore operations in Jersey, Guernsey, the Isle of Man and Gibraltar.
The Jersey Evening Post has learned that 22 of those roles had already been lost through natural wastage, which brought the total figure of job cuts to 68. The trade union Unite has reacted angrily to the news, saying that RBSI staff should not be let go because of the ‘failures of those at the top’.
The depressing prospect of more job losses to come was made worse yesterday following Gordon Brown’s speech to the US Senate in which he signalled that he wanted to outlaw offshore tax havens.
The Prime Minister said that it was time that world leaders came together to address the corrosive force of secrecy in banking jurisdictions.
Pictured: RBSI headquarters in Bath Street
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he is awake!!! (Ozouf)
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I think the tomatoe and potato industry will be making a quick come back plus all the Jersey cows which were shipped out recently.
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I am yet to see the promised use of the stabilization fund to create jobs for local companies.
The States continue to fire-fight; is it not about time they were pro-active and got projects off the ground that will allow people being made redundant to access other employment opportunities quickly?
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Wayhay! Lets build a massive office complex costing millions and millions, just what the Island needs in a recession!
Has the penny finally dropped with the boy Ozouf?
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Jersey is very well regulated. That’s one thing i can’t blame on the States.
Obama and Brown will concentrate on the dodgy offshore tax havens. So Jersey does not need to worry about being shut down.
Although, i do fear the credit crunch/recession means there are many more jobs to go in Jersey, and not just finance! The knock on effect to other sectors is far greater than people think.
I feel very sorry for all those people who lose their job and after 6 months out of work, they get hit with last years tax bill!
Don’t blame Jersey…
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http://www.thisisjersey.com/2008/04/23/jobs-boom-2/
interesting article quoting the same politican
not even 1 year ago!!!
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Dear Senator Ozouf,
If unemployment is going to rise…incidentally, some of us have been trying to tell you this for the last six months… why are you still talking about increasing the population?
Is it because you enjoy paying unemployment benefit?
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Now wait just a minute
Is this the SAME states department that siad Jersey would not be affected by the recession….
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I thought Terry Le Sueur said there was no recession in Jersey?
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No flies on him, this very point was made repeatedly on this forum yesterday.
Keep reading Phil, we’ll tell you what’s going on.
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Well regulated doesn’t mean we are not a tax haven and increasing taxes for the majority of the UK’s people.
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I hope there is enough money left to buy Terry Le Sueur a violin so he can fiddle while Jersey burns.
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The States need to act immediately and implement the following in respect of the Finance Industry:
1/Do not allow any new J cat’s and do not renew/extend any fixed term 3 or 5 year licences when they expire.
2/Properly implement the “5 year rule”
These steps should be taken without exceptions! Now!
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Jobs will go but Philip Ozouf does not have to worry because the taxs are still paid to pay for his wages.
What is he going to do to help stop jobs been lost?
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Yes the future is so bright and we have such a good government we have nothing to worry about – right??
No one is immune to a depression not even good old Jersey.
Lay on top of this growing concerns over finance centres and you have a recipe for major problems. Also as Jersey has all its eggs in one basket, drop the basket and you know what will happen. Jersey has followed finance at all costs policy believing it the best way to secure the future, unfortunately this will be proved to be a big mistake as far as I’m concerned. Put this hand in glove with allowing unchecked immigration and it is a not looking good. What is going to happen when all these people get laid off? Is welfare going to be paying out for lots out of work? How many of these unemployed will be local and how many new to the island? Will social security cope with these added pressures? Too many unanswered questions I believe.
Hopefully this greed fueled way of doing things will go now. It is about time the people trying to maximise their profits at all costs over here were taught a lesson as far as I’m concerned. No one wants expensive overpriced, often poor housing stock to live in. I beleive the States need to sort this out, it is wrong and makes Jersey look bad. Why waste tax payers money on rent rebate when you have the power to reduce rent to a more realistic level?
Property developers have swooped on Jersey knowing that they only have to build something and it will be bought by desperate people, fighting to outbid each other, in their desperation to get on the property market. From what I can see Jersey is unbalanced and any wobble is going to cause big problems leading to socio-economic problems of the likes we haven’t seen since the 1930′s. Does anyone have confidence in those running the place to be up to sorting this out?
Jambo being well regulated means nothing if the rules change! Anyway being dependent on one industry, especially one disliked by a growing number of people worldwide, is like playing Russian Roulette as far as I am concerned.
Fire-fighting is not the way to deal with things, you need to be pro-active and not reactive, or else you will come unstuck at some stage. Just look at the shambles with the reciprical health agreement, a sign of things to come?
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ozouf has just woken up perhaps he could give terry a kick to wake him up
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Jambo, a well regulated tax haven is still a tax haven. Being well regulated does not matter a jot.
Our backs are against the wall. America, Britain, France and even the Vatican are in the queue to take a chunk of the money they feel should be sitting in their bank accounts. Why? Because they are skint.
If you really think ‘they can’t touch us’ print this out and come back on here in two years time to see what has changed.
The party is over. It was fun while it lasted – now it’s time to detox after our long binge..
Please can we have our cows back?
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Yes some of these people who have been spinning things as great over here might end up spinning around like headless chickens when the bubble bursts. A lot of angry people are not easy to placate especially if they lose their jobs and savings etc. Raising GST to cover every eventually will not wash with the majority, they are already fed up with things as it is.
We have been pushed down the one-business route by those in charge as the easy solution to our problems. It never was, as it has caused massive immigration to keep the snow ball rolling, but everyone kept quite as long as things appeared to be getting better. However, once this depression gets a grip it will be shown to be a very bad move. Will those responsible for this take the blame, or will they be shifting it on to others, or just leaving the Island for better places once we are in the mire?
In my honest opinion, if the States go ahead with the Finance Quarter they must be mad especially in these very bleak times we are entering into now. I personally will be holding those responsible namely Ozouf and co for this unfolding fiasco as I see it. The government as a whole has not listened to the public’s opinion on all this preferring to plough ahead with their own schemes, well as far as I am concerned let it be on their own heads. I will be expected an explaination if and when it goes bad.
These are my own opinions and I stand by them. I hope I am proved wrong, as Ozouf and co seem to think all is fine, then I will admit I was wrong. However in the light of what is going on, not just here, but around the world I think they are wide of the mark. I have even told them this to their faces so they can’t say they weren’t aware of others concerns about things. As they say, time will tell.
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Thanks Jim, I’ve haven’t laughed so much in ages.
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Welcome to the real world !
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Dave,
The reason there is J cats is because there are not enough locals with the skils to do the jobs, by stopping j cats you will not be helping anyone, you’ll actually be hindering businesses.
I don’t think you’ll need to worry though, I can’t imagine too many people wanting to move to Jersey in the present climate. you never know maybe the locals will have their precious island back to themselves soon enough…. It will be very interesting to see how that would fair out!
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Bergerac – It would be great to give it a go! imagine only 20,000 people on the rock!
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Bergerac,
Please note that I am only talking about the Finance industry and not other sectors.
There are very few jobs in the Finance industry that can be defined as essential.
Firms can take on J cats for some of the following reasons:
1/They want to give senior staff within their organisation, or their friends etc. the job.
2/It is sometimes cheaper and easier to recruit a J.
3/The have more control over a J cat as his/her housing is linked with his/her employment and the J is more likely to move within the group when he/she leaves Jersey.
In the current climate there are certailnly very few jobs in the finance industry were there are not locals available with suitable experience.
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Unfortunately Bergerac good things tend to get ruined. Have a proper immigration policy and J-cats wouldn’t be neeeded. Australia for example doesn’t need them as it has a proper immigration policy to take only the best, the rest are rejected. They however are able to go to places that will take them in like Jersey, however with things changing around the world this may be coming to an end.
A country should make the best use of its own resources and not look to import specialists all the time. Training is the number one concern, which the States seem to overlook, as it appears cheaper to import someone with the relevant skills, however this causes other issues like over population, lack of accommodation etc which seem to be down played. Some immigration is good but too much of a good thing can be bad for you.
As per Jersey people surviving, they are very resourcefull and will manage once finance has gone. (They managed to survive the occupation for five years on their own.) They are not as stupid as some outsiders, seem to think!
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there has been plenty of time to train locals for jobs. but it fails to happen. i hope the j cat will shrink in these tough times
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Barry, Terry le Seuer hasn’t taken off his rose-tinted glasses for a while. When he does, he’ll wake up to the bump of reality. It shows how out of touch he is by thinking a world recession will pass Jersey by. Sadly, the reality of the recession is that it is going to get a lot worse, so batten down the hatches! We who live in Jersey will have to work together as the recession bites instead of complaining about J cats and non-Jersey folk. Most of us will probably end up joining the farming community or have allotments just to stay alive!
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Adrian, survive the occupation on their own? Survived it by collusion with the Germans more like… I don’t blame them though it definitely would have made life easier for them.
Dave it is naive to think that all the finance jobs can be done by locals
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History has shown that immigration encourages prosperity. It is the influx of “immigrants” over the years, which has brought prosperity to the island of Jersey and this has benefited local economies and the people of the island since the early 1800s and before.
Immigrants should not be used as scapegoats for social ills and poor governing. Jersey is, after all, a nation of immigrants, all who have contributed to the islands prosperity.
People come and people go, they bring and take with them new skills and fresh ideas – this is how the modern world evolved and will continue to evolve.
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Bergerac,
Almost all finance jobs can be done by ‘Locals’. The majority of J’s in the finance industry are for recently qualified Accountants, Lawyers and middle-management Bankers. There are times when it is advantageous for Jersey to grant these people fixed-term J’s, and now is not the time.
Jersey actually has a much more successful education system than the UK and achieves better examination results. A higher proportion of ‘Locals’ go on to obtain degrees and professional qualifications
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Dave have you ever heard of the saying ‘shooting yourself in your own foot’?
I agree that Jersey students who benifit from the taxes paid by non-locals do get a better education compared with the UK and therefore get better results. I also agree that Jersey compared with UK has a higher percentage of rich parents to pay for higher education. There are of course those in Jersey who achieve purely on merit and I applaud those people for that.
In your ideal Jersey heaven only local people would work in Jersey, surely you would be left with a massive shortage of workers – as a matter of fact there simply arent enough locals to fill in all of the positions.
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Bergerac 27. The Channel Islands was left for the Germans. I believe the UK would have been as bad, if not worse, if the Jack Boot had got onto their soil. Anyway the UK government didn’t bring any collaborators to trial after the war, so obviously there couldn’t have been any over here could there?
Do you think UK nationals are better at doing local jobs than local people? I myself don’t think they are. They don’t get a better education than islanders do they? So what is better about these people? There is nothing, it is only that they have the so called relevant experience to do a given job, or have been trained for it. However islanders could do these jobs with the same training at least as well.
I have seen jobs go to UK nationals which I know could easily be done by a local person and I blame the States for this, they should see to it they have locals trained up to do most if not all jobs over here. It is short sighted and is only storing up problems long term for the island to keep bringing people in as far as I am concerned.
I have nothing against anyone coming to Jersey and contributing in a positive way towards the island. However if they are just here for short term gain then I think it is bad for the island. I believe that people decide to immigrate when they think somewhere else is better than where they are born. If they didn’t think this there would be no need to emmigrate would there?
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People who come to Jersey for short term gain are not doing anything wrong as it is made very clear by quallies/5year rule that people are not wanted for the long term, why should they be made to suffer. I came, saw, earned, paid taxes and left with a profit, nothing wrong with playing jersey at its own game and whilst I agree with you that Jersey is a nice place, there are far nicer places in the world to be that don’t require you to be a second class citizen for a large percentage of your life before you are ‘accepted’. A lot of immigrants move for a change of scenery not because somewhere is better than where they are born and those who do move to a place ‘better’ than which they were born should not be penlised for wanting a better life.
Life is all about new experiences, If you are happy to stay on a 9 x 5 piece of rock then fine but don’t criticise others for their choices…..
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Dave
Jersey government provided figures state that we have a lower percentage of people with degrees than the UK as a whole. Yes we have more people with “professional qualifications” but that is a result of the JFSC requirements so people pass something/anything even if a long way from the most relevant qualification for the area they are working in.
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Bergerac 32. I feel sorry that you have to go elsewhere to exploit places. It is this attitude that is turning UK nationals against immigrants and fanning the fire of racism. I have to ask why bother coming to Jersey if you didn’t like it? Maybe you can set aside your principles for money? I couldn’t do that, that is why I wouldn’t go anywhere I disagreed with.
I have been to many places around the world and few rival a Jersey beach on a warm summer’s day. This is why I would prefer Jersey not to get completely ruined by over exploitation and mass immigration, it is only a very small place, it is ecologically unviable to have hundreds of thousands over here. I would be interested to here from you which places are so much better than Jersey as I may well have been to them myself as I am fairly well travelled.
Maybe you know different types of immigrants to me but most I know would far prefer not to have to move away from friends and family. The move is nearly always down to economics. Immigration is nearly always from third world countries to the west because of their perceived higher standard of living.
I don’t believe in penalising those who wish to move but they should at least be gracious towards their hosts. They are free to leave if they don’t like what they find, no one is forcing them to stay. I think you would find most places in the world would tell you where to go if you criticised their way of doing things.
Life is about new experiences but it isn’t about getting one over on others because you perceive them to be bad, or have a grudge about the fact they have a better life than you. For everyone at the top of the pile there are thousands at the bottom.
I only criticise those that find fault in their own choices, who then blame others for their own circumstances. If I went somewhere and didn’t like it I would only have myself to blame for being there wouldn’t I? I also adopt the policy when away not to look down on the people of the country I am staying in.
Yes I agree Jersey should have a proper immigration policy and yes it is wrong to use the housing regulations as a method to control immigration. However these policies were made by the government and not myself. I think it is only common sense in today’s age that countries look after their own citizens as best they can, and don’t go for the cheap option of getting in immigrant labour to do those jobs which businesses are unwilling to pay a living wage for. Mind you I suppose someone from Afghanistan or Iraq might be quite happy just to live in a place like Jersey, or even the UK?
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Yosser,
I agree that the percentage of the resident population in Jersey with higher qualifications is lower than the UK, but approximately half the resident population were not educated in Jersey.
I believe that internationally accepted professional qualifications are much more important than diplomas or degrees which may not be relevent to work.
Bob,
I do not think immigration should be stopped – when the economy is booming it may be appropriate to invite J categories to work here for periods of 3 to 5 years, but when we have a recession and have suitably qualified Locals seeking work then it is not apppropriate.
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Don’t feel sorry for me Adrian, I made the most of what was on offer and moved on a happy man, there’s nothing wrong with moving somewhere for a few years and moving on, it was never my intention to stay for good. It’s a bit extreme to suggest me moving to Jersey for a few years, being successful and moving on is fanning the fires of racism…. You say that ‘immigration is nearly always from a third world country’. Are England, Portugal, Scotland Ireland, Poland etc third world? because that’s where the majority of immigrants to Jersey come from…
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I must admit that I have trouble with teh attitude of some people on here, it actually amounts to racism!
Send them back, no more J’s I hear you cry, imagine a day in your life without people who aren’t “Jersey”,
When your daughter is ill is it ok to have a life saving operation done by a non local? When you children are born they are trained in England as there are not mid wife courses here (I believe)
When you go to the shop and have your tasty new potatoes how many Jersey people were involved in planting the fields and reaping the crop
It seems that we forget that we NEED non local people, we simply could not sustain ourselves without others and some of that I am afraid is down to us Jersey people being too damn lazy to do it.
How many would like our children driven to a frosty field on a winters morning to do some hard farm work, working in their conditions
you people need to wake up and realise that sending back all the non locals isn’t right and no you can’t pick and choose because that would be immoral!
And if by chjance there are some people on here who still think Jersey is only for locals then when you go to sell your home just sell it to locals with no foreign connection at all, I can tell you the price will need to be cheaper and the amount of people you get to view it will be few and far between but at least you will know you have done your bit, not willing to do that are we??? If so advertise it on insight and let us all know!
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36. bergerac where do most of the immigrants to the UK come from? Would the answer be a) a richer country or b) a poorer country?
How do UK nationals view these immigrants?
a) as equals or b) as third world migrants?
Migrants are by and large looking to better themselves, they aren’t just moving to places because they like the place and think the people in these places are great.
37.Gary yes all countries benfit from some immigration but not massive immigration it destroys the identity and culture when this happens. Do you think the UK would allow 50 Million immigrants over 30-40 years? Do you think any country could do this?
As per training in other countries if one pays and that country is happy with this why can’t this happen?
J cats are needed but not in the numbers coming in. Also these J Cats and 1.1k’s are able to buy a property soon after getting here, why are they allowed to do this when everyone else including locals and the rest of the new comers have to do a qualifying period?
As per hard work Jersey people know what this is, they survived the occupation with virtually nothing. Locals do work in agriculture but unfortunately not many are able to survive on the very poor wages paid to them, this is why workers have to be sourced from overseas by the agriculture industry. However once most of the fields have been built on to maximise profits Jersey won’t have an agriculture industry anyway. Unfortunately many now, including those of immigrant parents prefer to work in finance as it is perceived as more money for less work, and they want lots of things and to be seen as having made it.
Finance has unfortunately made people think that money grows on trees and that it is easy to have a good life when in reality to opposite is true. It has also lead to more greed and exploitation as people have seen pound signs where there were none before. This has made Jersey in everything but money terms a much poorer place to live. These are the consequences of over development and over population.
I am not advocating sending anyone back but I do think a proper immigration policy like Australia where they pick and choose the best that they feel will contribute the most, would be better for Jersey. They don’t take people who are expecting an easy ride, they leave these people to benefit from their own countries.
No Jersey isn’t just for locals, but remember this is their home. How do you expect people to treat you in your home? It isn’t here to be abused by anyone either. People should have a more caring attitude and not be so selfish and expect everything their own way and stuff anyone else. This is wrong and leads to big problems, as we are getting now.
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Adrian, Keep up, we are talking about Jersey…….. not the UK… You cannt say how the UK view these nationals just as you cannot speak for all of Jersey… You seem to fail to understand that people have different opinions. It’s like you stating that Jersey’s scenery is better than Australia, you’d struggle to find many people to agree with you but it’s still your opinion…. and to be honest I ‘m getting bored of them now so I’m going to sign off now.
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Dave – 35, I see your point but, the reality is your idea is complete nonsense. Inviting people over and then sending them back when not needed anymore is nothing new – look at the oil rigs in the North Sea, they operate a simular scheme, maybe you could fly the J cats in by helicopter. This recession you talk of has not really arrived here yet, yes some jobs have gone but not enough to warrant sending all of the non-locals back. The reality is there is not enough local people to do the jobs in a recession or not. You need non-locals in a recession and out of a recession the Island cannot function without. Furthermore the history of bringing in non-locals to Jersey to carry out manual work is centuries old it has been through tougher times than now, why all of a sudden shut up shop, Jersey will turn into the Mary Celeste. I completely agree with Gary point 37 at least somebody shares my views.
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Adrian,
YOu obviously think it terrible that these 1(1)k and Jcats can buy, let me remind you that they pay taxes, Britain (and I include Jersey in this) has a high proportion of second homes, we all know someone who has a house in France or elsewhere, how dare they buy that, forcing house prices up and making it difficult for local people to buy!!! Get my point, Jersey people have second homes and pay nothing into the economy yet the people you talk about do pay taxes!
And I know what happened in the war, and the hard times local people went through, and we should never forget what they had to endure but that was over 60 years ago and local people don’t do the menial jobs anymore (on the whole not entirely) how many of your family work on a farm? the point I was making is that we have become to used to imported labour doing the jobs we don’t want to do, like it or not its a fact, and they will be getting the minimum wage so why can’t a local do it?
Your statement is tantamount to slavery, we won’t do it for that amount of money so we will import someone who will!!
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Adrian & Bergerac
Do you two have jobs and if so are you really using your time constructively at work!!???
P.s. I’m on my lunch hour!
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Gary I have no problem with anyone buying but it should be a level playing field for all, why should J cats and 1.1k’s get special treatment, over the rest of the residents?
The problem with Jersey is that there is a very limited number of properties and allowing wholesale immigation has done nothing to help this. However what has made the situation worse is that an exceptional amount of J cats and 1.1k’s with a lot of money have come in and paid over the odds for property, this is forcing out those local born and the poorer immigrants who have no chance now against this exceptional buying power.
As per 1.1k’s paying taxes yes they do pay some tax however it is a drop in the ocean for them. If they paid the same level of taxes i.e. at 20 means 20 there would be no need for GST over here. This is my point some are getting too good a deal they should be affected to the same degree as the rest who have no option but to pay what they are told they have to.
Gary you are correct as to the poorest paid jobs or menial as you put it, these are done by predomianently immigrant labour, however it isn’t just because locals are too lazy etc. There are other reasons as well. One person who has special needs cannot get a job in this field not due to laziness but because those running these types of businesses prefer to employ foreign labour as they can pay less. It is therefore down to economics. Image trying to buy a house on the minimum wage is it £5.85 an hour now? How many hours a week would you need to work to get a mortgage of £450,000 for a house? 100, 200 hours a week? This why many of these jobs are done by migrant labour as locals cannot afford to live on these very poor wages.
If people don’t have the choice but to work what is this called? I myself wouldn’t call it free choice. Most are therefore kept on the treadmill to help others achieve great wealth often for very little reward themselves. They are then given the “choice” to pay taxes and GST on their meagre incomes. However the very rich are given a choice of what form of tax avoidance they would like to use, which is not available to everyone else.
I believe that people need to become less greedy, as until people realise this is the way forward, the majority will aways be exploited by those with the financial muscle to do so.
Well done Curious, for coming on here in your lunch hour, I’m sure your employer will take notice of your due dilligence and give you a pay rise.
Others have told me that anyone who has a job is Just Over Broke.
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