Tax haven protesters target banks
Friday 13th March 2009, 3:00PM GMT.
PROTESTERS campaigning to have tax havens closed down targeted banks in St Helier this morning.
Campaigners from a variety of charities and non-governmental organisations from across Europe were this morning due to walk from the Waterfront to hold a demonstration in the Royal Square and later to the doorsteps of banks themselves.
Yesterday banks warned staff to use public entrances in case they were targeted as the protesters rallied against ten UK and European banks. Last night the protest groups held a public meeting at St Paul’s Centre attended by about 100 people.
The protests were timed to coincide with tomorrow’s talks by finance ministers from the G20 group of leading economies being held in London. The ministers are expected to discuss the regulation of offshore finance jurisdictions.
A host of media from a number of countries are in Jersey to cover the events. The primary organiser was the charity War on Want and it brought together groups from Italy, France, Ireland and Belgium to target Jersey’s finance industry.
Christian Aid representatives from the UK were part of the group but the local Christian Aid group refused to support the protest and expressed dismay that its participation could damage local fund-raising efforts.
Pictured: Protesters march from the Waterfront this morning
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Why are we even granting this gathering of ‘The ill-informed and ignorant’ such media coverage?? We all know they’re there – the smell of patchouli gives them away! Further, they seem blind to the fact that we’re an Offshore Centre as opposed to a Tax Haven…. oh well, guess that’s why they’re all smiling – Ignorance is Bliss!!
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Well, the Island and our leaders have done a grand job of representing us globally here is the proof in the pudding.
People worldwide are aware and knowledge is not necessarily something that is just to be abused by the rich anymore… Greedy people are finally getting what they truly deserve, you can run but understand you cant always hide.
I gasped when I saw the headlines and then smiled a little when I thought about all that money in trusts for third world countries, fair trade agreements and other monies kept in trusts and not dispensing to the beneficiaries in some cases at all, most are vulnerable parties who are blissfully unaware of what they are entitled to.
This island has a cheek to turn its eye constantly with regard to DUTY OF CARE in every aspect of its nature. It constantly boasts of the wealth and its economy but yet doesn’t stop to think of the implications it has for its humble local people.
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I cannot belive the audacity of these people! Our tax laws are our own business if these protesters take issue with foriegn individuals storing their money here then take it up with them not us. Our legislation is none of any one elses business be that some self righteous group of malcontents or entire foreign governments.
It has nothing to do with them so they should push off!
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I believe Terry Le Sueur has stolen a march on the protesters.
Charities such as Christian Aid should be very concerned. Ill informed grandstanding does the said charities a great disservice. The local branch of Christian Aid should protest to their leadership. Charity and politics make poor bedfellows.
Yes, there are elements of the finance industry which are not transparent and yes some senior bankers appear to be guilty of gross incompetence. But the rouge traders of Wall Street are another matter. More to the point, if an investment opportunity is too good to be true, it is probably a risky investment which should be avoided.
Was there due diligence in the organisations organising the protests. I suspect not!
Chief Minister Terry Le Sueur has my full support on this matter.
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tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock
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Whether you like or loath banking in Jersey it is the major employer. If it is not in Jersey then it will be elsewhere.
Innersense (2). Prehaps you should think about what would happen to the local people if the banks pulled out. We have no tourism industry or agriculture to prop us up if the banks go.
People need to think about the consequences to Jersey before you get on your high horses and moral soap boxes. I don’t really know what these protesters think or expect to achieve. I am sure locals would not be happy if the banks left and took the jobs with them.
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You have to love the irony. A religious group complaining about opaqueness. The richest business in the world that you can’t buy shares in. Hypocrites one and all
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We have just as much right to set our own tax thresholds and levels as any other jurisdiction. If these eedjits want to stop people from other countries wishing to put their assets in Jersey they should look to the problems in their own countries, eg. high taxes and the like (no doubt “necessary” because their governments squander public funds on un-winnable wars and the like). And stop interfering with us.
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Rob (6). We have huge potential in tide power, the island could tap enough energy from tidal power to put a good few large nuclear power stations out of action. The states should at least make a start if only investing in one turbine set to test the potential.
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6.Rob Would you be one of those who would have supported slavery because it was legal. Morals and ethics make the world a better place. Just because Jersey would loose jobs doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t stop something that is morally wrong. You need to lay the blame fairly and squarely at the establishment’s door they have led us to this point by their blind pandering to big business and finance, to the cost of the island’s environment and quality of life for the locals.
I am a local and am prepared for finance to go. I vote for this even though it will affect me and my family. Morals I am afraid come before money and greed. Jersey is being destroyed daily by these types of people who have no interest in anything except how much money they can get out of the system. They will disappear to their next target once Jersey has been exploited to the bitter end. If people are to dumb to see this then they will soon find out the hard way. The party is nearly over it is only a matter of time. What will everyone do then? Sticking one’s head in the sand and saying words like well regulated and legal hold no water as far as I am concerned. Worldwide public opinion is turning against those exploiting the system. If you think Jersey is doing the right thing explain to me about the local company called Granite. How do you explain this away? I am sure Northern Rock customers would be interested in someone explaining this away.
I would also like an assurance that there is no funny money over here. Who is prepared to stick their neck out and make this claim? If no one is prepared to do this then this is an admission that we don’t really know what is going on over here.
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You have to laugh – If it wasn’t so sad. Since when as a 100 people demonstrating become “news”
“War on Want” is a disgrace, spending money to bring groups from Italy, France, Ireland and Belgium. Haven’t they anything better to do with their money.
Regretably “charities” have become political instruments. Ask them their position on Israel?? That’s always a good test.
I will not give a cent, penny or button to these so-called “charities”.
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Do they realise the ALL commerce in Jersey is in some way or another related to Finance?!? Every Jersey business is relyant upon the funds that finance either brings in directly or indirectly… Was it only a month ago that travel agents were complaining that restricting bank bonuses will reduce their business? I should think that type of trade would be the first to go, shortly followed by hoteliers who have lost their business customers and even high-street shops where these horrible bankers spend their money.
Norrow minded, non experts shouting about something that they cannot get their heads around! I will be fine, I have no issue in relocating and a degree in economics (take note protesters!) but I feel sorry for the older folk who will be stuck here in a desolate rock with an empty high-street and properties worth zip!
Free speach indeed… it is just a pity these guys didn’t understand what they are talking about!
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We should not have let these people in and I suppose we support these Charities!! Come on Jersey stand side by side, if the Banks and Finance houses pull out, Jersey will sink! This is so worrying.
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4. “Charity and politics make poor bedfellows.”
- Hmmm – or maybe politics should be more charitable – or maybe these two would make quite a nice couple. Are you suggesting that politics has something that would present a conflict of interest with the word ‘charity’?
6. “Perhaps you should think about what would happen to the local people if the banks pulled out.”
- Hmmm – pull together, diversify, become sustainable, retain morality, find a new direction, etc – sounds like there might be some plusses in there.
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I don’t get it. Surely these people would have been better to protest outside the Bernie Madoff hearing in New York City where investors (and charities) have actually lost money rather than some vague half-baked notion of turning up in Jersey.
Is Jersey not one of top charity-giving nations per head of population? I can only imagine the local charities are cringing in their boots over these clowns.
Send them home.
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Thanks for visiting us guys. Now go home and don’t come back!
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Banking is a “major” employer because the States have let Agriculture go to ruin! Look at the decline of the tomato and pepper production. Even the Jersey Royal will disappear because the cost of freight to the UK is so expensive that “normal” shoppers in the UK & beyond will buy “normal” potatoes due to price.
Even the infamous Jersey cow milk has had its day,apart from here.
It’s about time the States funded other industries other than banking, because if other banks follow RBSI’s redundancy programme the island will become a ghost-town.
Banking has fallen on its face due to the greediness & lack of structured “buying/selling” from the top. I do sympathise with the “normal” bank staff (the ones who earn under £40k a year ) but the “fat-cats” have none & the rogue traders are even worse!
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No.10 Adrian
‘I am a local and am prepared for finance to go’ I know i’m not alone backing you on this. Its only the greed of people that live beyond their means, with flash cars, widescrean tv’s and the lastest gadget, all on the tick that are worried.
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It disappoints me to see that those protesting haven’t considered the potential outcome of their actions. How many people do they think are employed by financial institutions in Jersey. How many law firms employ staff who deal with commercial transactions based for those offshore structures established and administered by thoose financial institutions.
I’m not sure how closing down Jersey as an offshore finance centre will deliver those things that these protestors are claiming. It will simply create large scale unemployment which will place more strain on the government.
Next time, please consider the wider factors and reprucssions surrounding your protests not just those that suit those protesting!
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Charity could be done away with if those with the most paid the same level of taxes as the rest and didn’t have access to tax avoidance measures. Maybe people should think on this a bit more, or are they too greedy to care about others who have to suffer because of this state of affairs?
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Hey dont moan, at least the visitor numbers went up!
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To Adrian, you seem to have this huge bug bear with finance in general but i have to agree with one thing. If we can prove not to have funny money here then that would be a great thing.
Problem is we dont know, there are far more issues way back down the line that gets these accounts opened over here and anywhere, regardless of so called tax haven or not, but I do believe that our industry makes as many checks as possible before an account or trust is opened.
If any funny money is discovered then the company should and will be under the cosh if they have not done their upmost to ensure the funds are from legitimate persons. Do you not think it is in the best interests of them to ensure these checks are carried out with high levels of due diligence. I have worked in a bank and know that when such questions are asked or documentation is required, if the client is unwiling to provide it then they are dismissed as a prospective client.
I dont believe finance will fail over here just because you hope for it, it would only fail if places did not make the upmost effort to ensure funds are legitimate and the banks, even the swiss ones (over here i would add) have to comply.
On another point. With regards to RBS making redundancies it really is not a big issue and should not be made into one for the sake of scaremongering. They made redundancies when the Natwest takeover took place, they made redundencies when outsourcing certain aspects to Isle of Man. In fact they made redundancies over 15 years ago (and it was big news then) but they are still here. I will put my money on the line and bet that many of the redundant workers will be back there in a year having had a nice redundancy package and then a new job.
And last but not least these attac and their foreign friends need to go out to the countries they know to be exploiting taxes and protest against their governments. Oh, wait a minute they havent got the balls to do that as they know exactly what would happen to them.
I believe in their cause as it is a just one, but frankly to do it here where we have some of the most stringent policies for finding out who the money belongs to is just taking the easy, and frankly lazy option.
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Adrian, what are you on about charity could be done away with can you please just think about what you said.
To give you an idea think about Jersey Hospice who run on charity. Where on earth would they get the money to fund themselves. Lets imagine our government decided we would pay for it but we have no finance industry. We lose the employees back to the UK or some other country willing to employ them. We are then with a slight problem that less people are paying income tax so we need to raise it. Lets say to 50% which is very conservative considering we have lost our main source of income. Are you still on the moral high ground that is would have been a good thing.
Are we going to raze all buildings to the ground to make fertile land available, tell owners of flats that they must leave because their flat is now going to become a hotel room to ensure our huge tourism industry has space to accomodate?
Sorry about the major rant on this subject but that charity comment is awful and frankly disrespectful.
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I drove past the demonstration today and thought it was a red nose day parade.
I doubt many people will have taken their feeble efforts seriously
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I saw these jokers several times around town today. I have seen larger groups of youths walking round on Friday nights.
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Why d’ont they go to Lagos to complain about the Nigerian corruption. They may not find it such a soft target as Jersey. These people do not realize that we cannot take time off to play silly devils as we are too busy working so as not to have to ponce off other people.
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Charities have no right to become involved in political issues, as far as i am concerned you have had your last penny from me!!! instead of dealing with issues like Zimbabwe and Uganda you should be ashamed!!!
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think about it, could jersey survive if so many jobs went, where would they go for support. The island wont run on jersey royals and cows milk
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Why is a few commentators on here (Adrian) are rubbing their hands together with glee at the notion Jersey might become some waste-ground of empty offices with a destroyed economy, massive unemployment and no money for schools, the hospitals, teachers, roads?
Do you somehow think Jersey will become like it was in 1950 again? Unlikely. You’ll just gloat over the destruction you backed, and eventually when you can’t find a job, you’ll leave Jersey for better prospects elsewhere (will you vote to destroy them next too?).
Why don’t you try living in a country that has a devastated economy, rampant inflation, non-functioning police force, widespread corruption and forced confiscation of private assets? Zimbabwe sounds perfect. Live there for a year and then ask yourself if you still want to vote for the destruction of the Jersey economy?
Better yet Adrian, vote with your feet and leave. Or is it too nice in Jersey to want to leave?
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Sitting in my radioactive Jersey granite farmhouse I am glad this turn of events will not affect me. Gordon wants his cash back….. and who can blame him? still! we’ve got a funny old clock and some lovely beaches and a bunch of twerps in the States to amuse us. It’s a life of suprises eh!
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Where to start;
Well the positive – Jersey will always be a Finance Centre. We have a vast amount of talent and experience in Wealth Management; the vast majority of the clients live in countries we already have reciprocal tax sharing agreements with and are happy with the service they get and so will not leave us.
And now the negative – a small percentage of the clients do use Jersey (and/or other places with favourable tax regimes) to avoid paying higher tax in their country of residence. Where this is another “rich” developed country I agree with the posters that it should be down to the country were this client is resident to have legal systems to prevent avoidance of tax.
Unforunately some of our clients are from “poorer” developing countries that do not have the resources to not only legislate against tax avoidance by its residents but also to administer the laws (it is easy to bribe civil servants and police who earn less than £100 a month when you are a multi millionaire and may even be a senior member of the Government – and yes it does happen all the time, I have personal experience how police and administrators will look the other way if you help them with their “electricity bill”. I worked in developing countries so speak from experience and have a continued interest in one of the countries. The rich people in these countries put their money overseas to protect their asset from the insecurity of the currency of their own country (Zimbabwe is an extreme case but you can see how your asset can be severely reduced where there is a weak currency). That in itself is not wrong but not declaring this asset/income to the tax authorities in the country they are from is wrong. It may not be legally wrong (because the country doesn’t have the laws in place or the ability to administer them properly and fully) but morally it is wrong.
So yes we can continue to enjoy a good standard of living but if we can do it AND ensure the countries who really NEED the avoided tax get what should be entitled to them we can all benefit from money owned and earnt around the world.
I hear you say well if Jersey stops these people placing their money with us they will put it in another place so we will may as well have it. And thats were the moral issue comes in. Do we want to continue to assist people avoid tax in their country that doesn’t have the resources to prevent them? Do we want to be a moral leader in this avoidance issue? Maybe for the sake of a few pounds each in lost GDP?
I think if you have read all of my post (firstly thanks) you know where my principles lie. I believe Jersey will continue to be a leader in Wealth Management AND we can do this with a conscience. You never know a stance like I suggest may actually benefit us and more people use our expertise and services in the future.
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As you know Adrian we have had this discussion on another thread and I doubt that whatever anyone says that you will lose your total disdain for finance.
I do agree that in a close knit community there is an element of competing with those around you and this leads to a certain amount of nepotism, but in general successful people have worked hard to get where they are and generally employ the rest of us – good luck to them and thank you for allowing me to have a job! p.s. Don’t forget I don’t work in finance – but I do support the industry!
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I think theres nothing wrong with people voicing themselves thats a fundamental part of democracy.
What you have to realise is that people are putting huge pressure on there own governments to make sure that people are not avoiding tax and it natural to look towards people that may help them to do that.
To say that jersey is proseprous because of anything but the tax system would be a blatant lie, its what attracts the banks that then attract the workers.
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Lawl, Markie Marxist and friends are on the move, with their fearsome banners and, um, catchy slogans, disregarding that tax havens are a necessary part of the business and are one of the factors that have for allowed the prosperity of the last fifty years to flourish. I’m sure they would very much enjoy every part of their being owned by the benevolent state. Such a pity I don’t trust as much.
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The majority of Jersey registered companies use as directors, people who are employed by local trust companies. You will not find this information on the JFSC website as (save for public companies, who are required to provide the names and addresses of directors on their annual returns) the names of the directors are not available to those searching the public registry and there is no requirement to list their names on the company’s stationery.
The vast majority of Jersey companies are private companies. Should you be thinking of trading with a private company or if you have concerns about such an entity, you cannot go the company registry and ask to see the latest accounts because accounts are not filed.
Compare the information available to the public from the JFSC with, say, Companies House or the Irish Companies Registration Office and then say that Jersey is transparent!
As for claiming that trusts are transparent!!! How about making it a requirement that all trusts have to be registered with the names of the settlor and beneficiaries being available for public inspection. I am sure that the likes of the International Red Cross and the World Wildlife Fund would be delighted to see how often their names crop up!
Yes, finance is the Island’s predominant industry but in no way, shape or form can it be said to be transparent.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I would have thought that if companies or incredibly wealthy individuals were making a huge saving on tax, then they may be more inclined to make more generous donations to charity.
I for one would rather donate some of my hard earned cash to a good cause that will save lives than see it squandered by the government on silly clocks and redundancy payments!
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The point here is Jersey’s Government has decided many years ago to have just one egg in their basket, finance! We used to be diverse with lots of eggs in the basket, so if you had problems with one industry it wasn’t such a major problem. With only finance left a lot of people on good money in finance are starting to panick how are they going to cover all those loans for all the toys they have. I blame the government but they has destroyed Jersey for years, so it is to be expected. To many problems no one with any good ideas, thats why I left the Island and I am very happy know. Shame because all my family still live thier but a phone call makes up for it. Have fun and remember Jersey never used to be such a horrible place to live.
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Feduo (37) I think if you look hard enough it’s not the States that have given up on other industries but it’s the way the world is evolving. Why spend £1500 on a summer family holiday to Jersey in what is quite likely the rain, when you can jet off to guaranteed sunshine for half the price? Why should the UK supermarkets pay the ridiculous price Jersey charges for it’s tomoatoes and other produce when they can get just as good elsewhere?
The main thing destroying Jersey at the moment are the people who seem to have it in for the finance industry- both on and off the island.
And by the way, I work in tourism not finance before anyone accuses me of doing so!
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JP the reason I say charities could well not be needed is that if everyone paid the proper level of taxes without resorting to tax avoidance or tax evasion then the governments around the world would have more money in which to help the poorest. This is a question of ethics unfortunatley, most here put money ahead of ethics and are therefore falling into the trap set by the rich and big business.
I myself believe all this economic milarky is down to people taking short cuts and trying to con others into thinking that they can make easy money. It doesn’t work. The current financial crisis is just underlining this. It has been dire for quite a few years now but people have been blinded to reality till very recently.
29.Bean Abroad. I myself don’t rub my hands at the prospect of finance leaving Jersey as it will cause hardship to many. However over 50% of the population can go back home and find jobs there. They do have a future. What about the likes of people in Zimbabwe who have been left by the international community to starve? What about them, does no one give a damn? What about the muntions companies, Britan is one of the biggest countries in this field, supplying weapons to these countries so that these dictators can kill even more of their own people? Worship of money causes massive suffering worldwide yet as you say people do give to charity.
As for leaving Jersey why should I leave my country? I am not entitled to seek work in the EU due to being branded as a true Jerseyman by own my government. You might be alright though if you haven’t got this stamp. It is a joke, it is racist and it is discriminatory as far as I and many others are concerned yet does anyone else care? Not a jot because they are alright. So it means that at least 90% have a homeland they can go to when finance leaves. This will only leave less than 10% to survive on their own inititive over here.
Why are people always knocking the past? I remember back to the 1960′s and I tell you Jersey was miles better then. Everyone cared about others and everyone knew their neighbours, then it has been gradually ruined for the sake of easy money. Few care now, most don’t know their neighbours, massive immigration has changed the place almost beyond recognition and I tell you it is not for the better.
30. Quentin your comment about radiation is a rather pertenent one especially with what is just across the way. As you say life is full of surprises and I am sure there will be plenty in store for us.
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Can I ask all those who want the finance industry to fail to state what their occupation is please? I dare say they haven’t for one moment considering taking the departure of our cash cow to the nth degree.
Lose finance and we lose everything. Vast numbers of companies and individuals will leave the island (“great news!” I hear them shout), and with them their expertise and most importantly their tax pounds and salary expenditure. Lose the tax and those left will see their education, healthcare, and all other infrastructure very very quickly disappear into a mere shadow of what it is now. Hotels will close because of the decline in business visitors, as will restaurants, bars, cafes, shops, advertising firms, insurance firms, technology support, cleaning companies, filling stations, supermarkets, corner shops etc. Nigh on every firm in the island, no matter how big or small, depends on the finance industry as its very life-blood.
Don’t shout about the farming industry, it’s on its knees already and it too relies very much on local sales which will plummet also. OK, they may be able to export more produce but their costs will go up in terms of haulage and no doubt taxation will rise in all aspects of their business as the states attempt to keep some cash in the island.
Likewise, tourism is a no-go due to the already excessive cost of visiting the island. Lose the already scarce tourism resources that we have and it will decline further.
All that will remain will be a vast number of empty apartments and houses across the island that remain unsold.
Yes, I do have a vested interest in finance in that I work in Trust so of course I am biased in my opinion. However, I do enjoy the nicer things in life like a stroll along St Ouens that the ‘End Finance’ brigade hold dear also. It is my prime reason for choosing to live here, as I am sure it is the prime reason for the majority of people who live here.
At the end of the day there’s none so blind as those that will not see.
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To givemestrength (No 35), you make a very valid point in relation to your comparisons between the different legislative requirements of the countries to which you refer.
However, if you choose to trade with a private company you can ask for all that information quite easily. If it is not forthcoming take your money elsewhere. I daresay the private company will very quickly provide the information you require rather then lose the business.
In relation to trust beneficiaries I agree with you in part. I don’t think they should be publicly available. However, I do find the presence of charities being named as bens when they will never see a penny gross in the extreme. I can say though that in recent years I cannot honestly recall seeing a new trust instrument drafted that includes such bens. I feel they are a nasty hangover from the Sark-lark days.
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Paul, we dont have vast levels of experience and talent in wealth management over here. The fact is we set the standards over here so low combined with a restrictive entrance policy so its not an open economy like the UK. We have partners in our big admin and legal firms who wouldn’t even have got a first interview for a training contract in London. One of Jersey’s big institutional fund management company’s has fund managers running big institutional funds with just the noddy IMC qualification whereas any where else they’d need to be a CFA charterholder to get in that position. Some spectacularly average people have done very well due to business landing in their lap during this bubble period.
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Madoff nicks 50 Billion USD being based in New York, Enron goes pop through massive fraud involving many of the top accounting firms. Total and utter incompetence – but lets forget about that. Unfortunately this all now highly political, as these failed politicians fight for survival and charities return to their fundamentals – happy to take the money in the good times, put the knife in during the bad.
Wonder how many of these protestors helped themselves to the duty free on the return ?
RBS Internationals redundancies have nothing to do with this and the “Ghost town” thing is untrue – I bet they are making 100′s of millions – its just a restructure – time to cut the little fat they have (not that they probably need to – but its a good opportunity)and make more money.
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Adrian,
You ask 2 main questions and here are the answers:
“If you think Jersey is doing the right thing explain to me about the local company called Granite. How do you explain this away? I am sure Northern Rock customers would be interested in someone explaining this away.”
Granite was a securitisation vehicle. Northern Rock sold the right to receive payments on mortgages to Granite for a lump sum, so it could make more mortgages with that lump sum. It was part of the Northern Rock scheme to become the biggest lender in the UK. What did Granite do? It bought assets off Northern Rock and effectively sold them on to third parties. Absolutely nothing wrong with this. There were 2 problems: the first was that Northern Rock’s basic lending approach was wrong. The second problem is that the people who bought the rights to receive the mortgage payments from Granite didn’t know what they were buying. And that is why securitisation is dead as a dodo.
But none of that was Jersey’s fault. Some countries – Italy and the Netherlands spring to mind – have bespoke laws to govern securitisation structures. If you think Northern Rock failed because of Granite and Jersey, then you are simply wrong. Northern Rock failed because it had rubbish management.
“I would also like an assurance that there is no funny money over here.”
Well, there is funny money everywhere, but Jersey has gone to great lengths to root it out, and not much is uncovered anymore. Once you ask a client to prove his identity and source of wealth, as all wealth management businesses now do, the funny money tends to go elsewhere. If you want to know where, my guesses would be the UK (London), the US (Delaware), Switzerland (but not for much longer) and Singapore.
But come on, you seem to know it all – why don’t you tell us, using some sort of evidence, rather than simply figures plucked from the ether, how much “funny money” you think is here?
Some facts about the finance industry: it employs a higher percentage of locals than any other industry in Jersey; it has a relatively low carbon footprint; it pays for pensions, healthcare and schools that we otherwise would not have; it ensures local youngsters (and I am Jersey born) do not have to leave the Island to find skilled work.
True Jersey folk love the finance industry.
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Its just such a shame that jersey seems to be hudled around the finance camp fire while it continues to burn out.
The island can look at the current world and take the step away from depending on finance and invest in other areas that would benefit the economy just as much and would be far more people friendly.
Alderney is looking at tapping the huge tidal power just of its shores, it has the potential to produce as much energy as a nuclear power station and its free!.
Imagine the revenues from selling the electric to the rest of europe plus the chance to make alderney a centre of excellence for this kind of field.
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44, securitisation was central to N Rock’s flawed business model where getting the assets off the balance sheet encouraged the collapse in lending standards, disintermediation. It happened at a lot of organisations who used thosestructures,yes onshore as well as offshore. Jersey helped facilitate this particular one. They were used to get round prudential capital rules and grow a loan book quicker than would normally be allowed by the relevant regultor.If you think we are completely blameless over here, then keep on looking through your Jersey lense.
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Lets step back a moment and ask why is it that a wealthy person living in a developing country might not want to keep their wealth in their own country?
There seem to be assumptions made by Oxfam and these charities that the governments and leaders of the developing countries are all honest, above board and above corruption. With a few honourable exceptions, many developing countries suffer from poor fiscal management, widespread corruption, high crime rates and government sponsered “confiscation” of assets. High rates of inflation are also often a problem. Zimbabwe is a prime example.
You don’t honestly think it a good idea for the likes of Mugabe to be able to steal your assets at a whim and give them to his cronies? The least assets these clowns can get hold of the better. Corrupt, dangerous governments should not be given more assets to prop up their regimes.
There are many valid reasons why a wealthy person would prefer to keep their money out of their own developing country. Such movements of capital have gone on for years from less stable countries to more stable countries. And not to Jersey – these funds are taken in all the major financial centres of the world – London, New York, Paris etc. etc.
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Adrian, whilst i admire your ethics unfortunately not all governments around the world have the same and that is why their are charities in such cases to help out the people that their government is not.
Regardless of that though and re my point on the Jersey Hospice as an example just how will our government pay for them and the other charities set up to help jersey folk?
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I bet they stocked up duty free though on their way over and back home
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47. Bean abroad rich people over here are affecting the tax revenue available to the States by by not paying 20 means 20. Why do you think you and I and everyone else are paying GST now? UK nationals are using Jersey to avoid their tax dues in the UK.
I also like your justification of tax avoidance om the grounds that the governments might waste money, well all governments do that. As per corrupt governments they learn from others don’t they? African leaders have a point in that colonial powers built their own wealth on slavery and exploitation of Africa’s resources and still do today exploite African resources via multi-national conglomerates. However we call this free trade. Try telling that to someone in Nigeria where their oil resources are being mined by the likes of BP and very little is going back into the local economy.
You could also ask the Aborigonals how they are finding it since Captain Cook discovered Australia. Native Americans in the USA etc etc.
As to corrupt, dangerous governments I 100% agree they shouldn’t be supported but who has supported these in the past? The west have going way back to the Nazi’s when they first came to power, to Stalin, to Saddam, to Mugabe, to Bin Laden the list is endless. They have also made vast sums supplying munitions to all these factions around the world.
Zimbawe has been left to starve by the world as there is nothing there, no oil unlike Kuwait or Iraq which needed assistance. Self interest will always override suffering, morals or ethics, as these aren’t worth money, the common currency of free trade. Conflict and strife means armaments and sales which equates to jobs in the west.
I view Jersey as an arm of the London. Without London’s support finance centres under British control would close down. As far as I am concerned there is no valid reason for avoiding taxes except the real one of self interest.
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44. mad foetus are you saying that Northern Rock sold rubbish to Granite who then dumped these toxic assets at a profit onto unsuspecting investors who thought they were getting a good deal? If this is the case then this is a case of fraud and mis selling is it not and all monies should be returned to their rightfull owners?
You are also saying that a Jersey company is not the responsiblity of Jersey neither is the way it conducts its business?
Its nice to have confirmation of funny money over here even though Jersey is very tightly regulated. As to how much it could be anything up to 10-20% could it not? If no one knows then what is the point of having regulations when you are unable to monitor the effectiveness of these regulations?
Financial institutions have been dabbling in all sorts of new products like sub prime mortgages and other really investment schemes that have been shown to be worthless.
Add on top of this the so called financial experts advsing the purchase of these products.
We now have the Bank of England practicing quantitive easing which is defined as the creation of a pre-determined quantity of new money ‘out of thin air’.
Do you really expect anyone to go along with anything to do with finance anymore? I have to say that it is no wonder there is a financial crisis going on around the world. It is also apparent that governments are struggling to sort this total mess out. So much for banks being a secure place to put ones money in. Jersey doesn’t even have bank deposit protection over here for Jersey’s savers, oh dear nevermind it doesn’t matter does it, as we are well positioned to weather this economic downturn acording to Senator Ozouf….
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Ten out of ten to the JEP for printing that photo of the hypocritical French person protesting outside RBSI…then using their cashpoint!!!
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48. JP You ask “just how will our government pay for them and the other charities set up to help jersey folk?”
My answer in plain English:- tax those 100 richest people at 20 means 20. At present they pay £8M in tax to Jersey which is £80,000 a head. At 20 means 20 they could easily be paying up to £100M or more. Who knows as we don’t know what they are earning each year do we? However one thing is for sure I believe the richest person in Jersey can well afford more than £80,000 per year without even noticing it!
What £80,000 tax equates to on 20 means 20 is: £80,000 x 5 = £400,000 earnings/income. Now answer me this do you think any of the top 100 don’t get more than this per year?
I would appreciate it if you didn’t use the same old excuses as I got from our government, that they would leave, as I will tell you what I told them. I said to tell them to thats fine as we will be looking for people to replace them who are more public spirited, and that it would be nice not to have to beg for donations for charity anymore.
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The decisions that affect the future of the finance industry in the island will not be made here or anywhere near here.
They will be made in the political offices of the leading economic powers and the boardrooms of the banks and finance houses that invest here.
Blunt fact, if the UK wanted to play hard ball they could shut the finance industry in Jersey down in under six months.
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I should add that for the practical politician ideology is a convenient peg board to hang policy off.
Mrs Thatcher and her Conservative government were just as keen as any Labour government to get their hands on tax revenues and they abolished the gilt fund exemptions in the early Eighties.
Listening to David Cameron it is quite obvious that if he is elected next year then he will be out for a serious reform of the financial system and a quick boot in any offshore centre that catches his eye will be part of the deal.
It will play well with the pensioner vote that is currently blaming the banks for reducing the interest on their savings to next to nothing.
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I agree with many of the comments made by Adrian.I don’t know all the ins and outs of our finance industry but any part of it that is used as tax avoidance or tax evasion,whether legal or not is morally indefensible and considering the current global economic climate has no future.There may be parts of our finance industry that do have a future but ‘tax havens’have had their day.Jersey survived before we became used and abused as a tax haven and i am sure we will in the future.There are many businesses in the world now that did not even exist 50 years many thanks to the internet.We need a governmemt with vision that will take us into the future with new sources of industry.One much talked about lately is tidal power,why don’t we strive to be a leader in this field?Or a test bed for electric or non_petrol driven vehicles.How about incentives for the movie industry to film here?I am sure many of you have other ideas also.And the thing about these new industries is that they are socially and morally acceptable and will help to take the world forward to a better place.That cannot be said about our finance industry as it currently exists.As our leaders seem constantly obsessed with our international reputation wouldn’t it be good to have some industries that we are proud of,like we used to with farming and tourism rather than an industry that is deeply embarassing and shameful?
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“Do you really expect anyone to go along with anything to do with finance anymore?”
I expect the people who don’t understand it and don’t like it will continue to not understand it and not like it.
Granite didn’t sell rubbish – its just the rating agencies and the buyers didn’t understand the risk because they were unable to contemplate making loses.
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57. mad foetus people are investing their life savings with advisors are you saying these advisors are no good and if you are why aren’t they taken to task by the regulatory body? maybe this is the trouble with all this finance milarky it can be dressed up as marverous, like sub prime loans were, when in actual fact it is total rubbish and will bomb out once it is sold on by the middle men. Maybe you think this is good practice I don’t?
Also since you appear to understand the ways of finance mad foetus can you explain quantitve easing to me as I don’t understand how people can just make up money to suit. Maybe if this is ok I could use my monopoly money or print my own to help the Bank of England out?
Finance needs to get its house in order there are people making vast sums at the expense of investors who trust these products. How can this be right? I will not trust anyone in finance, they haven’t got a clue what they are doing as far as I am concerned, unless they are deliberately trying to sell bad products on to an unsuspecting public?
As regards tax avoidance as per my previous post does no one agree that it would be better for the richest over here to pay like the rest? This would mean GST being done away with and enabling charities not to need to beg for money or are you all happy for things to carry on as they are? If you are can someone offer to pay my GST for me and make my charity contributions for me or are you too self centred to care about anyone else?
Please don’t bother with the usual line that rich people make charitable contributions. Even if they do I bet it isn’t anywhere near what they would have paid out on 20 means 20 every year for the last however many years they have been availing themselves of Jersey’s resources.
Let us start facing facts it is about time everyone shared the tax burden equally and not allow certain sectors to avoid their duties.
The solution is a simple one either all pay properly or no one pays at all. What do people want? Are people greedy self serving and non caring or are they interested in sharing with others and making this place fit for all?
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also Adrian
” mad foetus people are investing their life savings with advisors are you saying these advisors are no good and if you are why aren’t they taken to task by the regulatory body?
Firstly, advisors don’t flog notes issued by securitisation vehicles – they are purchased by big financial institutions.
Secondly, most advisors know nothing and only a fool would trust them with anything. But how can you take an advisor to task? If people believe that others can predict the future then its their right. The regulators already require that the fortune tellers have qualifications, what more can they do?
If you have 100 advisors, more or less by definition, 50 will outperform the market and 50 underperform. And the 50 who outperform will claim they have a good track record. And some people fall for this stuff.
Think for yourself, that’s the only rule in town.
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Hasn’t finance become the major employer because the states let everything else go to rack and ruin?They should be quaking with all their eggs in one basket-and having heard the attitiudes of some finance workers who are all greed and damn anyone else,they’re only echoing the men in power.Make the greedy,tax evading peopleput their hands in their pockets and stop penalising the normal people.Sure it might take adjustment if they left,but wouldn’t any temporary pain be worth it for the sake of the island?
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60. Canuck very valid points Jersey has been sold down the river as far as I am concerned. Finance is the be all and end all as far as most people over here are concerned including those in the CoM. The sooner people wake up to reality the better. There is no such thing as a free lunch all debts have to be accounted for. Certain people in Jersey have done very well, others have done reasonably well and the rest have either maintained their postion or fallen further behind. The sooner tax avoidance is reduced and then got rid of the better for the majority on this planet.
Greed is killing Jersey and those who think this way of life is good are deluded as far as I am concerned. Yes everyone should pay their way.
59. mad foetus you are correct it is a case of look after yourself over here because no one else will. However we could do without the back stabbing and posturing that goes with this.
As regards finance I wouldn’t trust them as far as I could throw them. They have proven to be more than useless, they are a danger to the world economy. I believe they have also given the public glimpses behind the scenes and they have not liked what they have seen. Money in my opinion is not worth the paper it is printed on, it is just an illusion of value, when it is in real terms it is worthless.
I would also like your explaination of quantitive easing elsewise know as printing of extra money.
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Adrian,
I’m no economist but quantitative easing is simply printing money – it didn’t work in Japan, it may or may not work in the UK, but its nothing to do with Jersey. Money is just paper, only gold is real and the more money you print the more you weaken your currency.
But for all these people saying that the States have put all their eggs in one basket, what are you talking about. The States did not spend any money at all on promoting the finance industry until Jersey Finance was formed in 2002. Even since then the amounts have been negligible – in 2006, I think the States spent as much on supporting the finance industry as they did on payments to farmers in respect of sileage. The finance industry is so big in Jersey for 2 reasons:
1) It is well run and profitable and has grown organically; and
2) The locals don’t want badly paid jobs in tourism, agriculture or retail, thus sucking in imported labour in those sectors.
That’s why the only areas of work dominated by locals are the finance industry and the (paid for by the finance industry) public sector.
And unless you inherited either a farm or a hotel, those remain the only ways to earn a decent living in Jersey. Offshore energy may give a bit of revenue in the future, but anyone that thinks the Islands can continue to fund schools and hospitals through tourism and agriculture is bonkers.
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Adrian – suggest you study finance and banking before making such statements.
Tax is always paid in the country in which the transaction or profit accrued. The monies in Jersey are normally capital or accumulated wealth and is placed here for many reasons such as the home country being politically unstable or simply not having a reliable financial system. The monies do not stay in Jersey as piles of foreign notes in some dusty bank vault as you would have people believe. It is invested back into the global economy. You take away places like Jersey and you will starve many developing countries of the investment they desperately require.
If you want to attack a true tax haven look at the UK and their favourable treatment of nondoms. These are normally Asian billionaires who are allowed to keep their overseas monies tax free as an inducement to move to the UK. Of course this does not fit your stereotype of the greedy ogre of the mythical Jersey establishment so you will just close your mind. If you want to change the world go to Zimbabwe and complain. You will soon discover what a proper dictatorship is all about although you probably won’t get the chance to tell us about it.
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Adrian
Usually, central banks try to raise the amount of lending and activity in the economy indirectly, by cutting interest rates.
Lower interest rates encourage people to spend, not save – or so the theory goes! When interest rates can go no lower, their only option is to pump money into the economy directly. That is quantitative easing.
The way the central bank does this is by buying up assets – usually government and corporate bonds – using money it has simply created out of thin air.
The institutions selling those assets will then have “new” money in their accounts, which theoretically should boost the money supply.
Hope this helps
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I wonder how many of these protestors pay tax.
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Sanity,
when said Billionaires, Asian or otherwise, move to the UK , they almost always park their UK property purchases in nice little Jersey companies to avoid IHT so we pick up nice little fees off what your highlighting as a tax abuse. Non-doms also have to cough up £x k after so many years now or be taxed on their worldwide income.
Tell me how many Exempt companies did we have over here per head of population before that was closed down by the OECD? A blatant harmful tax abuse we were happy to facilitate in exchange for legal and admin fees. The non-dom issue pales into comparison to that ruse across the offshore tax centres.
Mad Foetus, no quantitative easing as enacted by the Bank of England is not printing money. They will buy financial assets of an acceptable credit rating and of the more straightforward type of assets, not the smoke and mirrors stuff.
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Quantitive easing is getting towards the last shot in the government’s locker.
They have cut interest rates to the point where savings are barely worthwhile and borrowers with security are paying very little.
That does not seem to be helping as banks are still reluctant to lend, even to each other, and the economic outlook is still poor for at least the next year.
By buying bonds the government will be pushing liquidity into the economy but it may turn out that they are ‘pushing on a piece of string’.
If that is the case I am not sure what they can do next, large schemes of public works springs to mind.
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“Mad Foetus, no quantitative easing as enacted by the Bank of England is not printing money. They will buy financial assets of an acceptable credit rating and of the more straightforward type of assets, not the smoke and mirrors stuff.”
Errr, using what? They are buying government bonds using money they have printed. Otherwise, they would have to issue more gilts in order to buy existing ones, which would be pointless.
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Adrian
You take everything to the extreme. Yes so the well regulated Jersey financial system is no doubt being abused by a few but give me an example of a system that isn’t? The majority of people drive their car safely but some will speed… shall we ban all cars, all alcohol, everything? Shall we kill all new borns in case they commit crime later in life?
To think that offshores, and even dodgy tax havens, are the reason why we have charities is ludicrous! If the UK government stopped wasting billions on illegal wars, weapons manufacture etc it could eradicate poverty in Britain overnight. As for foreign countries it’s up to their people to take a stand and overthrow the individuals holding all the wealth and invest it for the people.
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68, your inference was clearly they were printing money for nothing as in Weimar Germay or Zimbabwe, “simply printing money”. Not the case.
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what we should do though is immediately stop any overseas aid going to charities that promote this “let’s blame Jersey for corruption in africa” nonsense. we shouldn’t give a penny to political charities who then criticise us without having the facts.
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Jersey helped introduce the world to securitised debt vehicles. That’s enough of a reason for any number of demonstrations.
If you don’t think that the Channel Islands are complicit in the global distortion of wealth, including perpetuating opaque practices to disguise the true worth and the true owners of that wealth, then I suggest you go talk to some lawyers that design the instrument structures.
They like to boast about how clever they are at hiding stuff.
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Joker 69. The top 100 richest people in Jersey pay £8M in tax that is an average of £80,000 per person. If they paid at 20 means 20 they would pay a lot more than that. Do you think that is right? Do you also think we mightn’t need GST if they paid more? Do you not think charities would need less if more went into the tax pot?
Tax avoidance if removed would halve world poverty in ten years,is this not a worthwhile project or is everyone to greedy to see this?
Yes wars cost a lot of money and are a waste of resources and life but they make a select few very rich. Were would places like the UK make this sort of money from if they didn’t have munitions and finance sectors bringing in money? Where do these munitions companies register their head quarters? Everything is linked together in one way or another.
The USA and the UK are classified by many as the largest tax havens in the world and many of the offshore finance centres are run or controlled by them.
I’ll say it yet again charity would not be needed if people weren’t as greedy. However capitalism functions so well as people are naturally greedy and self centred especially those running the show. This is also why we have financial problems around the world today, it is down to greed and selfishness. If people were open and honest no one would get ripped off and there would be no tax havens as they wouldn’t be needed or wanted, just as there would be no wars etc.
If people are happy with the way things are that is up to them but they will soon realise, when everything comes crashing down round their ears, especially in the environmental department that greed is not worth it in the long run. Everyone will be affected by a seriously degraded environment however a select few will make a lot of money from big business that cause this damage.
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It appears from this, and many other articles in other media, that tax planning to minimise tax paid is confused with tax evasion.
As a small example, there are many properties owned overseas, particularly within the EU, where the ultimate ownership is vested in a UK company. The ownership by the UK company – a single purpose vehicle or SPV – is only done as part of the tax planning. I stress, this is not an offshore company, but a UK company, but it seems that all the “noise” is about offshore tax planning.
On a global level, possibly the most popular location used for tax planning is within the USA. This is Delaware, which is the country’s corporate tax haven, with over half of its publicly held corporations registered there, including 58% of the Fortune 500. Corporations are attracted by Delaware’s exemption from taxation of the subsidiaries of holding companies (so the holding-company headquarters are located in Delaware and the operating subsidiaries generally elsewhere). Financial institutions are attracted by its absence of usury limits.
Worth thinking about, before all the current knee-jerk reactions by various politicians with vested interests cause unforeseen and negative consequences.
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Apologies in advance Adrian – I’m not nit-picking I just for the life of me can’t understand your views:
My answer in plain English:- tax those 100 richest people at 20 means 20. At present they pay £8M in tax to Jersey which is £80,000 a head. At 20 means 20 they could easily be paying up to £100M or more.
If you were running our government and introduced your own above suggestion….. and they all moved to Monaco because they thought the tax was to high – how would you ensure our hospitals and schools received the same level of funding?
Out of interest have you ever run as a Deputy or Senator?
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carolyn don’t worry no apolgies necessary. I was hoping that someone would understand where I am coming from. As far as I am concerned if they should be paying £8M, on 20 means 20, then that is fair, if they should be paying something like 50-100M then don’t you think they should? Or do we back down when someone threatens to move away?
I am sorry but this is wrong. If some go to Monaco let them go. Jersey can then get others who are prepared to pay more to come here. Hopefully there might be a few people out there prepared to muck in with the rest in their hour of need, or are you happy to be paying GST just so that certain people don’t threaten to leave?
A byproduct of less rich people per square mile would be cheaper prices which is surely one thing everyone would like. With every downside there is an upside people just have to realise it. Due to the high numbers of rich people in Jersey house prices in Jersey are being distorted upwards as they will pay whatever they want for the right property. Travel to and from Jersey is I believe higher as there is a perceived notion amongst boat and airline companies coming to Jersey that we are all rich and can afford to pay higher prices.
If you hadn’t noticed the consumer is being forced bit by bit to pay for everything over here. The reciprical agreement has gone with the UK and I believe the hospital will end up charging to a greater extent for treatment here. This is the way of the future in this good old capitalistic world.
Schools could well be next as with the States user pays policy why shouldn’t parents pay for their childrens education? This would free up lots of tax payers money for big projects like incinerators or more land reclamation to take the ever increasing population!
I happen to look at things from a different angle to others this doesn’t mean I am wrong, I might be correct. However as the majority of the crowd follow the leader it is different to get people to think outside the box. This has meant Jersey has become very stagnant in its ability to meet change with a change of direction prefering to plough the same furrow with a different tool. The end result is still the same, but it is compliant until the next time. Why not do something different, times change and so do opportunities. It is now time to move on and get out of the same rut we have been in for 20-30 years now before we are forced to by outside forces.
There is a saying that “turkeys don’t vote for Christmas” nevertheless people do eat Turkeys for Christams don’t they? The question I would ask is, are most people in Jersey turkeys? If they are they won’t like Christams when it arrives will they?
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For the record quite a few churches and charities have offshore trusts and companies in Jersey…and these protestors obviously don’t have a job seeing as they’re over here during working hours protesting against something they obviously know nothing about and so don’t pay tax to their authorities…
ironic isn’t it…
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Adrian
your comments are nearly always contrary to the general consensus, you appear to have no sympathy for the thousands who would be displaced from our island should we carry out your insular selfish ideas. Unlike the majority you seem to hate life in Jersey.
Despite your apparent wishes Jersey is a great place to live for its multi national/cultural population, and despite the gloom and doom mongers if we all pull together, will remain so for the foreseeable future.
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78.PJG I have only stated what I see are big moral and ethical issues. If people aren’t bothered that is their choice. I find it very interesting how far people will go to justify their jobs on grounds of being legal etc, yet if the boot was on the other foot would they be as happy with this state of affairs? I think we all know the answer to that one.
My ideas are not selfish or insular and I also find it odd that no one from the UK can answer points on immigration there. Maybe they are too ashamed to answer?
Sharing the tax burden and resources more evenly is not selfish. Grabbing as much as one can for oneself is being selfish, this is the point I have been trying to make reference tax avoidance, which no one has yet picked up on. Maybe you are happy to be paying GST because of this? I am not.
It isn’t about hating things over here it is about facing up to facts things are going down hill regardless of the spin masters.
If you think marking a minority out over here by putting a stamp in their passports is good then you obviously have no interest in local people. Look back into history and you can see where these sort of things can lead.
Yes Jersey is a great place to live better than nearly anywhere else but for how much longer? Once a place is ruined it very difficult to repair the damage. Jersey is special and shouldn’t be treated as a piggy bank to be raided as and when it suits.
I also have to point out that you appear to have no sympathy for the billions affected by the world economic structure, yet I am wrong to want it altered to help them. In the scales of humanity, which is heavier, a few thousand reasonably well off people in the west who could go somewhere else and start again, or billions living on the poverty line, with no options and no where else to go? If they do manage to flee somewhere else they are often treated as illegal immigrants by uncaring governments, ending up in camps or being deported back where they might face death. Any that slip the net are used as cheap labour to maximise profits for businesses in that country. Capitalism at its most profitable.
Yes life is good over here but please remember others elsewhere who are not lucky enough to live in a finance centre.
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Christian Aid is a charity, you don’t have to be a Christian to work for them so can people stop using this story as an excuse to attack religion. Also, it is naive to think that an organisation this size has stepped in and voiced ‘ignorance’, they may take a different stance from you but I don’t doubt that they have done their homework and know exactly what problems tax havens cause, probably moreso than anyone on here. But then I have learned over the years that the Finance Industry believe they are the only ones that actually understand it! Plenty of people outwith finance understand it perfectly well, just because they choose to not be part of it does not mean they are ignorant, sometimes they choose not to be a part of it because of their lack of ignorance!
Secondly, if charities and religious groups are not allowed to play a part in politics then we must also exclude any other organisations that exist (trade unions, professional bodies, research groups etc). Can anyone see the problem here? You will end up with only politicians being allowed to play a part in politics!
A ‘group’ (of whatever form) simply represents the desires/needs of a large body of people (often including some of the electorate themselves) and they get access and a voice that mere individuals cannot, that seems very right to me.
I don’t agree with the methods of these particular supporters but I accept their right to protest, and assume that if something gets me worked up enough they will not deny me my right to protest.
John #3 – I can only hope that you don’t actually believe that! Going by that reasoning then nothing Mugabe or Bin Laden do should be of interest to the outside world either.
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“I cannot belive the audacity of these people! Our tax laws are our own business if these protesters take issue with foriegn individuals storing their money here then take it up with them not us. Our legislation is none of any one elses business be that some self righteous group of malcontents or entire foreign governments.”
Well said, John, NOT ! Your words can be summarised by “greed” and “selfishness” : “as long as I am OK, it does not matter that thousands of others suffer and even die because of my actions”. Please please please, this is NOT the Jersey we were once proud of !
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“Can I ask all those who want the finance industry to fail to state what their occupation is please? I dare say they haven’t for one moment considering taking the departure of our cash cow to the nth degree.”
You are SO right, outsider, NOT ! If what you say were true, countries that are NOT tax havens or offshore centres would have no way of surviving. And of course, they do ! As a matter of fact, many European countries score 100 times better when it comes to social welfare of the community. Admittedly, you pay much higher taxes there, and, admittedly, they don’t always get it 100% right, but at least they are trying. And please, don’t give me that “There is always a boat in the morning …” nonsense ; many have-nots have as much right to be here in Jersey as the haves.
As a matter of fact, I find it revolting to read how many posters applaud our finance industry and fence with dumb remarks like “What would you do if the finance industry wasn’t here?”. While they are jumping up and down, jubilant about how wonderful our finance industry is, they don’t even realise how they are trampling those that do not benefit from this “money tree”, on the contrary. Well, I am sorry, but I cannot praise a Juggernaut that crushes people on its way, no matter how big and magnificent it is !
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Adrian, totally agree with you regarding the taxing the rich more instead of letting them off but thats got nothing to do with tax havens thats just our own pathetic weedy little government of grovelers.
Dont agree that we would no longer need charities though, but if you are correct then how do work out who gets how much of the spare money. I get the feeling over here that it wouldnt make its way to them anyway and would be wasted on consulatancy fees and grandiose projects.
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Adrian
Sorry but your argument on 1(1)ks doesn’t hold water. Surely any loss of 1(1)k receipts would have to be made up by the average tax payer – probably through increased GST so I’d rather they pay £8m between them than nothing. Increasing 1(1)k to 20/20 would result in their exodus leaving me, you and others filling the £8m shortfall. Further to this is that 1(1)k’s may pay a lot less per head but they also consume a fraction of our public services compared to the ‘ordinary’ tax payer as they are hardly ever here and take advantage of health insurance etc. Finally, they can provide good publicity and business for Jersey through their contacts.
I don’t agree with your opinion that 1(1)ks push up prices on the Island either. They are rarely here, it is the strong economy that has pushed prices up by the average person earning more and spending more. The properties 1(1)ks seek to buy are way above 90% of the populations reach so their affect on housing costs for the majority are negligible. 100 people are not going to affect the cost of travelling to and from Jersey either. Besides, most of these ’100′ use private transportation through charted jets or their own yachts.
The main reason for the removal of the reciprocal agreement is because there are on average far more people from Jersey in the UK (mainly from those studying at uni) than people from the UK in Jersey at any one time. Blame the fall in tourism for that not 1(1)ks.
Are you being facetious with your schools comment? User pays tax is used for people who require non essential public service such as planning or tipping fees etc. (and given your stance I am surprised you don’t consider that to be one of the fairest taxes at a governments disposal). Being that education (until 15yrs) is a basic human right I cannot see how you would think it would ever fall under a user pays tax!
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For the record (cause someone asked this question of everyone) I previously did my job on a island much the same size as Jersey but with a population of under 200. An island that runs quite happily without a hospital, locally provided secondary education, bank … despite being further from any mainland than Jersey is to France. It is amazing what you consider essential just because you have it, even though you could survive perfectly well without it.
Jersey would undoubtedly suffer ‘short-term’ were finance to go, but as there is a good chance of this happening over time anyway there certainly is a need to be planning for a future not just focussed around Finance. I don’t doubt that Jersey would probably survive fine long-term however, other islands manage so why shouldn’t Jersey? It would of course be a huge change but maybe future generations would consider it better to how Jersey is now.
Has anyone considered that maybe Jersey simply cannot sustain its current population without relying on Finance? Given everyone’s concern over the slow death of Finance (as we know it) it seems clear that Jersey probably can’t sustain its current population without it, in which case the States have allowed overpopulation!
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Taken straight from the OECD website – and they have no issue with Jersey:
“Is the OECD opposed to tax competition?
No, not at all. The OECD favours competition in all economic spheres, including taxation, providing it is fair and open. The OECD is not opposed to low or zero tax rates. On the contrary, the OECD supports tax reforms that lower rates and broaden the tax base. It supports tax competition that is based on the service provided, but not on the basis of secrecy. Our project on harmful tax practices is aimed at anti-competitive practices. It is focused on promoting international co-operation through exchange of information and providing a transparent, non-discriminatory fiscal environment within which real tax competition can flourish and where competition on the basis of excessive secrecy is eliminated. Our work is intended to help governments design tax systems that encourage economic growth, produce a fair distribution of the tax burden, minimize tax compliance costs for taxpayers and at the same time ensure that taxpayers pay the right amount of tax, at the right time and in the right place.”
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Clingingtotherock – we are in a globalised world now where if you want to ‘survive’ as a developed nation, you have to be able to compete. Whether you like it or not, in the modern world, Jersey is only capable of competing in finance.
With no finance industry to rely on in your lovely socialist Jersey – how would you propose paying for schools, nurseries, medical care, benefits, social services, policing, subsidised housing etc.?
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Why does everyone talk about ‘surviving’? Surely we want to do more than just survive?
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It is clear from these demonstrations that the people of Jersey are against the finance industry which has bought nothing but problems to the Island. It is just a pity we have not got more politicians like deputy Wimberley and co with the guts to nail their colours to the mast and stand up for their beliefs.
Unlike other industries people have to be bribed to enter it by the offer of huge salaries and bonuses which other key industries such as farming and tourism who can only pay a minimum wage cannot compete. Without this monster industry we would not need an incinerator and the rest of the massive infrastructure projects we don’t want or need. Just look across the water at Guernsey who have for years managed with out such items, they don’t even need a sewerage plant.
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I am in total agreement with Leah #85
Yes there will be cuts in public services if the finance inductry collapses, but then there will be less strain on them anyway.
Swings and roundabouts.
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Song for the finance industry (with apologies to Gloria Gaynor)
At first I was afraid, I was petrified
I kept thinking I could never live without you by my side
But then I spent so many nights
Just thinking how you’d done me wrong
And I grew strong, I learned how to get along
Oh now go,
Walk out the door
Just turn around now
You’re not welcome anymore
Weren’t you the one who tried to break me with desire
Did you think I’d crumble
Did you think I’d lay down and die
Oh no, not I, I will survive
As long as I know how to live I know I’ll stay alive
I’ve got all my life to live
I’ve got all my love to give
I will survive
I will survive
Yeah, yeah
And you’ll see me, with job anew
I’m not that greedy little person still in love with you
And I spent oh so many nights
Just feeling sorry for myself
I used to cry
But now I hold my head up high
(repeat chorus)
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Most of these posts are either being written from the UK or are coming from very inexperienced local people that do not understand the finance industry.
Well I will put you out of your misery. It is still on the way up, it will not be affected by next months G20 and the 14,000 people that work within the industry have nothing to worry about.
I have read the report from the presentation by ATTAC and it’s contents are so inaccurate it is actually laughable to read especially some comments made by a local politician that put it upon himself to speak at the seminar. If the so called anti-finance people believe all the hype out there then leave them to it.
The people in the know do not give a dam about their silly inaccurate views anymore because the facts are in the law and above all figures.
Finance is doing okay in Jersey so do not worry about it!
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Thank you for your words of hope Sara. I am glad to read that you are so ‘in the know’ to ba able to say conclusively that the G20 will not affect the finance industry and that there is nothing to worry about.
Unfortunately ATTAC are not the only people who think we are not being fair. Obama, Sarkosy, Brown, The Pope… etc etc etc.
If they want change; it will happen.
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The only certain thing about the future is that it is unpredictable and uncertain.
The silly thing about Imagine Jersey and the Strategic Plan is they ignore the fact that massive and unpredictable changes are almost certain to occur in the next twenty five years.
Human beings like to think that tomorrow will be much the same as today and although that is OK on a weekly or monthly basis when you start thinking in terms of decades it may not be true.
Very few people predicted the huge financial mess we are now in with governments shoring up banks and companys worldwide.
The colossal debts incurred are going to be a feature of economic life for years to come and huge companys like General Motors may be left as mere shadows of their former selves.
Maybe the world in 2012 will be much as it is now but with recovery well under way but I would not put money on it!
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Nioleux I don’t think the US is in a position to make demands on the finance industry seeing as they are a much bigger tax haven than we could ever be lol
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Lula, you are so wrong if you think that we would not have to bow to US pressure if they wanted us to.
They could pass legislation tomorrow to make it illegalfor any US citizen or company to do business with us. It is called a ‘sanction’.
We are but a tiny, tiny fish swimming with the sharks.
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It is a fact that every person who was brought up in Jersey despises the finance industry and longs for the day when their children have to leave the Island because there is no work here. It is also a fact that the finance industry employs a higher percentage of Jersey born people than any other sector, and these people enjoy a good standard of living.
Poor Foetus is most confused by all this. If only that nasty Mrs Thatcher hadn’t closed down the mines – if only we could all work underground in horrible conditions for little money I am sure we would all be much happier.
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