Perchard incident is now closed, says Chief Minister
Friday 20th March 2009, 2:59PM GMT.
NO action will be taken against the Health Minister for swearing at another States Member and telling him to kill himself, according to the Chief Minister.
Over 300 comments on our website have called for Senator Jim Perchard to resign over the incident. However, Senator Terry Le Sueur says that the matter is now closed.
Many JEP readers have expressed disgust that Senator Jim Perchard (pictured)admitted swearing at Senator Stuart Syvret in the States last week.
And the majority of comments posted on www.thisisjersey.com have called for Senator Perchard to resign after the JEP revealed that he told Senator Syvret to ‘slit his wrists’ after a press conference late last year.
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no surprise there then TLS.
Why get rid of your old boys club, its only what the people of jersey want!
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I’d suggest that the matter is not closed, until the people of Jersey say so. Since when was Terry Le Sueur a ruling monarch?
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So just you all stop it, and do as you are told, all of you, and stop calling the island a banana republic when you know that it is a dictatorship.
Right so I’m off to the tuck shop, and after that me and the gang are going behind the bike shed.
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Your dictator has spoken!
Wasting your time in Jersey it is finished!
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Glad to see we are listened to. The states show no accountability…shocking.
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Of course the ‘matter is now closed’ – but if it had been Sen Syvret saying the same to Sen Perchard the outcome would have been so different!
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I have lost all faith in the States, they are a JOKE and Le Sueur has just shown how weak a leader he is. the people count for nothing yet we voted them in. Complete Joke and Embarrassment to us all.
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Is this how it is Jersey, certain people can do what they want, provided they are the elite?
Senator Perchard should make a gesture of apology and Senator Syvret should make one of reconciliation. This would go some way to restoring the confidence in our government which has been so shaken by this incident.
The council of ministers was supposed to be more inclusive, with transparency and fairness. So far, they have been a major disappointment and the leadership needed to change that is lacking.
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Disgraceful, how can he not resign or be forced out after such an incident. What does a States member have to do to get the chop. This just brings our goverment into disrepute and gives the UK more reasons to interfere. Come on Terry show some leadership and sort this out!
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A health minister that says that to anyone should be given the boot!
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What with this and the £3m (or £10m according to Jersey Insight)incinerator cock up cost I thought I’d woken up on 1 April!
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Can anyone tell me whether it is possible for the Public to bring a vote of no confidence in our Chief Minister and his Council?
We have two and half years until the next elections; do we have to suffer this ineptitude until then?
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If Senator Perchard was an MP and had used this language in the House of Commons he would have beeen suspended.
If the States wants to portray itself as a Parliament with all the rights and privileges that entails then Members must act in a parliamentary manner both inside and outside the House.
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Closed is it? Wanna bet? This is gonna run and run Tezza old chap.
I suggest that if our Chief Minister considers Perchard’s behaviour acceptable then there should be two resignations on the table; starting with his own. Leadership! What leadership?
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Can another member bring a proposition of no confidence in Perchard?
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Of course there was never going to be any discipline because Terry Le Sueur is a weak leader who doesn’t understand long words such as ‘accountability’. He, along with virtually all the COM are a disgrace to this island and can never be trusted to do the right thing!
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Firstly congratulations to the JEP in its own comment for voicing the opinions of hundreds of people over Perchards behaviour.
Secondly, it is an absolute disgrace that JP has not been punished in any way, shape or form. I had e-mailed both JP and TleS over this matter as I was personally deeply hurt by such insensitive remarks and language and also because it was plain unacceptable.
Whatever the provocation there is no justification, and a very good book asks to learn the art of ‘turning the other cheek’.
Somehow, we cannot allow closure on this matter – if TleS thinks he is showing ‘leadership’ in this way, heaven help us when the boat finally sinks.
This place is finished.
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The Bailiff and Juliette Gallichan as head of Procedures and Privileges should act against Senator Perchard for bringing the House into disrepute.
If Ministers do not resign when they act in a disreputable way, what is the point of Ministerial accountability?
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interesting point paul (12).
(15) i think this is the only action available.
in jerseys history this must be one worst times
for local politics.
mind you the elected are not fighting in the street yet.
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So where does power in Jersey actually rest
Beeches Old Boys Association (if so I’ve missed out)
St.Martins Music Hall Association (possibly)
Catenians (Catholic mafia for those who don’t know)
It’s our Potato Monopoly ( now being stood up against)
Or some other group? (Not even I, follow the twelve foot lizard route, however)
What is true, is that the electorate and good honest governance play no part whatsoever!
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old boys club strikes again just brush it under the carpet like all the other scandals terry you are fooling know one
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I agree with DottieH (6) as I bet Senator Syvret wouldn’t still be sitting in the States if he had said exactly the same comments to Senator Perchard!!
What a complete and utter farce, but unfortunately not a surprise either!
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There has recently been a lot of comment about youths misbehaving. How do you expect youngsters to behave, when so called responsible members of the Island’s so called government are such poor role models. Terry Le Sueur was my physics teacher in the 1960s, he was equally unable to control bad behaviour then – he is totally inept as the First Minister,
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Absolutely disgraceful!!
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We all know who was treasury minister when this big mistake was made. I thought he was supposed to be an accountant.
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Just because Our Lord and Master dictates that the matter is closed, does not mean for one minute that we will forget this. I sincerely hope that these fools will be voted out at the earliest opportunity, indeed a vote of no confidence should be brought.
Jim Perchard, and TLS in particular, are a DISGRACE to this island and actually make me ashamed to be a Jerseyman.
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A Guernsey minister makes an innocent slightly racist comment and is in the news for weeks. A Jersey Old boy who is supposed to care about peoples health suggests people slit their wrists and gets away with it.
Good idea Nioleux (15) Vote of no confidence required.
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You took the words out of my mouth Nioleux TLS and Perchard have both got to go. commenters are queueing up for this one. There must be a way we can get rid of them both, everybody put your thinking caps on and come up with a solution to this atrocious farce.
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Did I miss the apology ?
Or is he standing by his words ?
We have a new standard for behaviour of our members. We have had the standard set by Terry and Jim.
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Again surprise,surprise when are we all going to wake up?
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I cant belive it,this is what happens in places like Mugabies government.The reason is Terry does not like senator Syvret either,This means he depends on senator Perchards support in government no matter what he does.If this happened in the UK he would be gone.All we want is a decent respectable government we can be proud of not personal attacks on each other.I had some respect for Terry but now he has just taken us back in time by doing nothing.
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So if I walked up to Senator Perchard in the street and made the suggestion to him that he so intimately whispered in the ear of his fellow member, I might well be arrested for an offence akin to a breach of the peace. However I am not Senator Perchard just a low life immigrant scumbag fit merely for exploitation and deportation.
If I lied to a States official denying a certain course of action or comment the JFSC would be down on me like a ton of bricks as unfit to be a company director; yet States Members operate to a different set of standards. The politics of this island are sordid and grubby; NB it is often said that a country gets the government it deserves
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TLS is turning out to be the most unpopular Chief Minister yet. He makes decisions with no regard to the public that voted for him…
TLS and Perchard should resign immediately!
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Your article says no action will be taken against Perchard for swearing in the states. So possibly we may see him chucked out for lieing to the A.G. and the rest of the states members !!! If it doesn’t happen then a precident has been set. In future can we believe anything that we are told by states members? They now they can lie with impunity and no action will be taken. What a mess.
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Oh, Le Sueur, you’ve just made the biggest mistake of you’re political career. The clock is ticking and it’s currently at one minute to midnight….
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So how do you start a vote of no confidence in the Chief Minister … do we as the voting public, who he supposedly serves, have no right to do so ….. I presume he is untouchable as it transpires from his lack of action (or is that lack of) with Senator Perchard, that all the States politicians are unaccountable and can act as they wish. It seems that he has decided to do nothing about those members that do not follow the rules or have act with any moral standing. Is this an example to set the youth of today?
Can anyone tell me if the actions he has taken are accessible under the Freedom of Information Act? Or do I hear a paper shredder starting?
An apology from Senator Perchard is now too late – just in case he is thinking of this. What respect has he left as an elected leader of the island?
I challenge the Chief Minister and the States to set an example of an open government and one that sets standards of respectability and accountability to those that it serves.
I look forward to your response Chief Minister and colleagues!
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And what if Senator Perchard had said the very same to Terry Le Sueur, would he be closing the case then? I think not. The outcome would have been very different, of that I am sure.
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Weak, very weak.
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A liar, deceitful and a bully, Perchard has not the integrity to resign – Le Sueur has not the leadership to deal with this.
Extremely poor performance at a time when the island most needs leadership.
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After reading the above I am unable to comprehend the way your all thinking. Jim had clearly been provoked by Syvret as Syvret has provoked the majority of the public. If you so dispirited with Jersey to quote an old saying “There is a boat that leaves every moring, why not hop on it” or you could all just try to work with the system and try to get the island back up and running.
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This matter is closed?! Think again TLS. Not only is Jim incapable of doing his job but the chief minister is showing is is incapable of doing his!
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Why does Jim Perchard have the right to talk like that to an elected representative of the people? (especially one with as strong a mandate as Syvret). This shows that TLS and Perchard have nothing but utter contempt for the voting public of Jersey.
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This is absolutely atrocious! The Health Minister being allowed to say the things this man has said and still keep his position is bad enough, but to have LIED about the fact he said it in order to make someone else look bad, shows he is nothing but sly and devious and cannot be trusted. Thank goodness Stuart had witnesses, people with integrity, something Perchard does not have.
He should be sacked- no doubt about it !
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I believe that Senator Perchard is of the highest integrity, I do not for one minuet think that he would lower him self as to swear at anyone.
We do seem to have some sort of banana republic going on in Jersey, but I have every faith in Terry to crack The whip.
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Jersey John no.7 I agree, well said…
I have lost all faith in the States, they are a JOKE and Le Sueur has just shown how weak a leader he is. The people count for nothing yet we voted them in. Complete Joke and Embarrassment to us all. SNAFU! TAUFUAU!
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Vote of no confidence. Both le suer and perchard need to go. I thought we got rid of walker but the ghost of his politics hangs on.
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If this is how TLS is listening to the public, then there is no hope. Who the hell does he think he is? It would appear most of the Island feel Perchard should resign or be sacked, TLS obviously feels his disgusting behavior is acceptable. This is what happens when a ‘figurehead’ is placed by the establishment into a position of power. The CM position should be a public elected position.
At what point would he take action? Punches being thrown?
This has given the Island a clear indication the COM are running their own agenda and do not and will not listen to the public at all.
Mass resignation please.
Disgusting and sickening behavior from a Government unable to Govern.
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With his lack of action Terry Le Sueur has shown himself to be a spineless leader who does not care that he is making Jersey politics look like amateur hour.
The man is a disgrace.
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15 Nioleux
I doubt that this would happen. I am sure that TLS has been busy behind the scenes ensuring that his loyal lieutenants remain faithful to his cause and thus keep their mouths shut.
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Terrys sent out the message that he condones such behaviour.Are we all now above the law?
Can we all go round saying exactly what we like and get away with it? Surely if a respectable man like Mr Perchard can do it,we all can.
Then again Terry was probably not brave enough to get rid of him in case Jim punched him.
Surely anyone can now stand up in court and say “well the chief minister lets people say what they like so we can presume that were all equal.
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Here, here…
Le Sueur is beginning to see himself as the new monarch or diactator..
I am disgusted at this poor excuse of a politician.
Both Le Sueur and Perchard should be forced to go immediately.
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Let me tell you, if I went to a shop/restaurant or a States department and somebody spoke to me in the way Perchard did, I would DEMAND an apology or that he was fired. But then, if his department head or director said that no action was to be taken and the matter was closed then I would be furious.
However, this is our elected health minister and chief minister. People who get at least some of their personal wealth from us and use the post they are in to advance their own positions and wealth even further.
Am I alone in saying and thinking this is unacceptable? Or worrying that the arrogant and cynical way this has been ignored is a clear indication of the lack of leadership we suffer from.
Jersey is a fantastic place, with some wonderful people but we are badly let down by those that govern us.
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You must act know and get these people removed from Jerseys Government. Jersey needs people in charge who want to help the Island, people who listen. It is very unsetting to see the Island you love being abused by these idiots. Enough is enough their won’t be anything remotely like the Jersey I grew up in if this carries on any more!
It’s time the people stood up and where counted! Fight for your Island and the things that you loved about it before it is all loss to these self serving people.
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Syd (27) and any one else interested, there will be a petition outside the old Woolworths on Monday from midday onwards to be signed requesting the Perchard is dispensed of.
Let us all show both JP and TleS how the Island feels.
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How’s this for an idea: Go to the next states sitting and go up to the public gallery. Then, get some stage blood and pour it over your (old and no longer used) shirt as if your wrists have been slashed. Maybe you could have a short piece of rope in your pocket which you could put around your neck and it has about 6 inches leading off it.
Then sit in the gallery and stare at Senator Perchard…deeply and intently. See how long it takes for you to get ejected from the chamber, but how is it going to un-nerve Perchard!
It would make the press and perhaps the national & international press which would make his position even more untenable.
If it is seen that Jersey’s reputation is being hurt, then he is GONE!
Forget morals, principles or leadership because they mean nothing to the COM. If they fear it will cost them in terms of reputation then it will happen.
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Comment # 40 “Jim” must be either a friend or family member as your comment does not relate to the facts of what actually happened. As for your “theres a boat in the morning” attitude this does put your remarks and obvious stupidity into perspective.
Comment # 44 So Senator Perchard is of the “highest integrity” in your eyes. Is this the same liar and bully that everyone else is talking about ??
Perchard should no longer be in the states recieving taxpayers money, let alone our “health minister” after his behaviour. T le S is a joke but a very expensive and dangerous one.
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Hopefully there will be an online petition too – for those Jersey folk who will not be able to sign in person…..!
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JG
Now I am DESPERATE to sign this petition, but I’m afraid outside Woolworths is a difficult place for myself and many others to get to (parking etc) Please could there be other venues such as a drive in and out parking area (esplanade?) where we could drive in, sign whilst in our cars, and drive out the other side? Or maybe at a large supermarket? This is something we all have to have access to, please set up more venues.
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The overriding impression one gleans from these serious matters is that even Basil Fawlty has something to learn from the Chief Minister, Jim Perchard &c,. Elected representatives – it beggars belief.
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Senator Perchard is an elected official, chosen by the people for the people and anything he may or may not have said was in the States Chamber was in the context of this role.
At the time of Senator Syvret’s Christmas Address I objected to accusations of “inappropriate language” on the grounds that he was an elected Senator speaking in the States Chamber, ironically I believe the same principle should hold true here.
While the States Assembly naturally must have internal rules to make sure that everyone can have their say, the freedom of expression of our Senators is too precious to meddle with and to curtail that in any way, even for using abusive language, is to restrict democracy itself, that is something we can never accept.
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Chief Minister Le Sueur has closed this incident without offering an explaination or taking action?
Doesn’t that go against his binding obligations in the Code of Conduct for Ministers? Or has he secretly decided the Code of Conduct does not apply to him and Jimmy Perchard?
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‘The incident is now closed’
I don’t think so Senator Le Sueur. The electorate of Jersey are making their feelings known and they are not going away.
The top two most commented articles in the JEP continue to be about the Health Minister and the overwhelming view is that he must go. This is closely followed by the view that there is a complete lack of leadership shown by the Chief Minister.
The Jersey public deserve better than this, we elect you to represent our views and pay your salaries and those of the civil servants.
I for one want those who take my money to be held to account.
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Linda (58) – It is not actually me organising this petition, but when I go and sign it tomorrow I will see if it can be made available elsewhere for more people to sign and post on this thread.
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Pip Clement (18) is right when he says that it is up to the bailiff or P & P to deal with this. It is not for the chief minister to say it is a closed subject. This is far too important. I regret to say, and I apologise here and now for it, but I actually voted for Perchard. What a waste of a vote.
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Harve sorry to hear you voted for a lemon (in my opinion) and well done for admitting to making a mistake. Let us hope everyone else who votes for these sorts does the same thing at the next elections!
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Should we all be complaining to P & P then? If that is the case I am emailing them right now!
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is there a States Member out there willing to bring Justice to the table, whilst I am not a Syvret Supportor the case is Perchard lied to the whole of the States and for this alone he should be disiplined. if I lied to my boss I would be looking at my reduntantcy package TLS has no leadership skilss to be the CM
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Mr Le Sueur fails to be a “leader” on a number of levels. Firstly, he clearly has no idea of parliamentary practice and seems to think that he is above all and everyone else. Secondly, he took the post of Chief Minister with a dogged determination in the face of widespread public dispproval. He has no mandate and is not recognised as the senior incumbent in any meaningful sense. Thirdly, now that he does occupy that office [albeit in an undemocratic way] he is rapidly showing that he is incapable of conducting himself in a proper manner. Please stand down and respect the people of Jersey.
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If it had been Syvret coming out with the threatening behaviour, it is most unlikely that Le Sueur would attempt to close the matter.
An investigation is required. Le Sueur’s unstatesmanlike and apparently biased approach stands to escalate the incident and place Jersey’s standing at risk of further ridicule.
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The matter is closed!
I don’t think so, the matter is very much open and awaiting action.
He must go.
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Mr Le Sueur fails to be a “leader” on a number of levels. Firstly, he clearly has no idea of parliamentary practice and seem to think that he is above all and everyone else. Secondly, he took the post of Chief Minister with a dogged determination in the face of widespread public dispproval. He has no mandate and is not recognised as the senior incumbent in any meaningful sense. Thirdly, now that he does occupy that office [albeit in an undemocratic way] he is rapidly showing that he is incapable of conducting himself in a proper manner. Please stand down and respect the people of Jersey.
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Of course Perchard should have resigned – surely the only reason he hasn’t (unless neither he nor the Chief Minister has any concept of appropriate parliamentary standards)is that neither Senator Perchard nor Senator Le Sueur can bear to see Senator Syvret win. I am no fan of SS, who is in the States purely on a wrecking mission these days, but if Perchard was not smart enough not to see that Syvret’s sole purpose in life is to antagonise everyone, then he’s failed a pretty early test.
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Whilst the results from this debacle are not surprising they are of course very disappointing.
Does anyone know if criminal proceedings can be brought against ‘Big Jim’ for his words?
i wonder what a similar punishment would be if say i stood up in the house and asked verbatim for Jim to go and do the same thing, or indeed sent him a letter in the post with the very same words on it?
Answers on a postcard pls for me to ignore because i don’t want to listen to the public voice and or those laws laid down.
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Anyway we are all really wasting our time; Jersey is really TLS’ own personal fiefdom passed on to him by FW and no doubt it will be willed to the next nominee whatever we say about it. Keep up the good work SS as if nothing else your really must irritate them all something chronic!
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How is is that when a Guernsey Minister tells a poor joke, television media remain with the issue for weeks on end.
Yet when a Jersey Minister tells a lie, they remain silent!
Why?
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So it looks like we are going to get an ‘I’m the victim’ apology from Senator Perchard in the States sitting this morning.
I don’t think that the public will buy into this if he does.
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An apology?
Wasn’t it Epiminides who said ‘I am a Cretean, and all Creteans are liars’
In this situation there is no paradox and weasel words (written elsewhere I suspect) don’t wash.
As for the ‘I am a victim” coda !
Please just go!
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“Does anyone know if criminal proceedings can be brought against ‘Big Jim’ for his words?”
No, saying nasty things to people is not yet a criminal offence, though from the rabid comments on this website you wouldn’t know it.
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Yes Nathan Jorden (60) freedom of speech. But that is not the issue here. Senator Perchard has every right to have his say in debate and may well advocate that politicians slit their own wrists. Was that Senator Perchard’s mandate when elected as Health Minister? No.
Has Senator shown the maturity required of public office? No. He should go.
A vote of no confidence with the voting preferences of States Members publish in the JEP would close the matter. TLS are you man or mouse?
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I can only assume that TlS doesn’t know anyone who has committed suicide or he would consider a Health Minister making such statements far more serious than he does.
Maybe Perchard should make a ‘community service’ type gesture like helping out psychological services for a few days and learning about the work they do.
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#55 I probably wouldn’t go with your methods but I’m somewhat stunned that there was such an uproar about some large girls not being allowed in a club, yet (not to belittle the gravity of the first issue) the obvious public discontent over how this issue is being handled by TlS has not, so far, resulted in any obvious protest. A petition is great and well done to the person who got it going but the States could so easily just bin it, they can’t ignoe hundreds of people chanting about their incompetence as they try to go about their ‘work’.
Politicians everywhere need to wake up and realise that they are in fact meant to respresent the electorate and what is best for the electorate as well as the land!
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Is it any wonder our youth are running riot when our politicians (who should be setting a good example to the youth) are actually no better -
Senator Jim Perchard – swearing and lying in the Public eye and the Chief Minister allowing him get away with it.
Disgraceful!
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Syvret would try the patients of a saint.
Alas perchard is no saint.
A good man for the states but not a saint.
Another bit of shafting Jersey by Syvret
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“Anyway we are all really wasting our time; Jersey is really TLS’ own personal fiefdom passed on to him by FW and no doubt it will be willed to the next nominee whatever we say about it. ”
Does anyone actually believe this nonsense? TLS is Chief Minister because he is the person who could command the support of the majority of democratically elected States members. And perhaps part of the reason why is that people can disagree with him without being abused in a blog.
I like democracy, because it means that extremists like SS can be given a voice but can never have power.
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Sorry Mad foetus what we have is not a democracy. Democracy is but an illusion peddled by those pulling the strings behind the curtain as their puppets do their bidding. The majority’s wishes are constantly ignored. I shudder to think what will happen when Ozouf gets given the job next!
You have been sucked in by the system unfortunately and are unaware of what is really going on.
I would say if the farmer can’t take the heat he should go back to farming. Do you really think he is up to the job of health minister? What concerns me most about him is he has lied in the states. This is worse than his comments as far as I am concerned. If he had any gumption he would do his own blog and put his own point of view across on things in the states. However I don’t think anyone would read it, unlike Stuart’s blog which is now taken as the main source of news by a larger and larger number of people over here. Even the JEP reports on his blog now.
Why are we kept in the dark? Stuart should need to do this. News should be freely reported over here, all this “not in the public interest” rubbish as far as I am concerned is used as an excuse to keep people in dark for fear they find out what is really going on.
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Our Government are a disgrace and embarassment, they are like children at playschool.I cant believe that this has happened, I am embarassed to be a jersey born woman.
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This sordid little incident actually makes me have a little respect for how the Sans Culottes do things in France. They have
an elected dictatorship over there.
Lets be honest, we have something not too disimilar over here. We should be protesting in the royal square and waiving banners to have Snr P impeached. Thats what they would do until it was properly addressed.
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Kate, comment 40, “There is a boat that leaves every morning, why not hop on it” . comments like that summarise the mentality of the politicians in Jersey, to quote TLS, “The Perchard incident is now closed”. to quote my Gran, “you can’t see the wood for trees”.
Amigo.
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#84, I have to agree with Adrian that this is not a democracy. Having been here for a bit now I’ve had my friend explain the voting system time and time again as I try desperately to find the democracy in it, I can’t!
It may not strictly be a dictatorship but it certainly isn’t a proper democracy either.
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Aw! Old Perchard he’s a good old bean really, us locals need to stick together because we might need his wisdom and language when Gordon comes knocking. Perchard is our most potent weapon in the fight against the tax havens, he represents the true Jersey Bean Spirit!!!
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If Senator Perchard had immediately apologised and admitted the error of his ways this matter would now be closed. Instead he chose to dance around the houses and try and avoid accountabilty sinking low enough to tell lies.
I hope the Senator makes the most of enjoying his remaining 2 years in government because I will not be surprised at the next election to see his despicable behaviour return to haunt him and lose him the election.
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Frankie says “relax”
Jimmy says “Top yourself”
Terry says “I don’t care what the people think”
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Of course its a democracy and although all of my friends think the current lot are pretty poor, I have never, outside of this forum, come across anyone who thinks that the people who have never previously had a good job would be anything other than a disaster.
People vote, then the CM is elected by his peers, same as in the UK. The fact that they don’t like SS and you do shows that you are a minority and should meet a wider range of people.
And if you are referring to GST and the petition of 19,000, isn’t it time to accept that you were wrong and thank TLS for having the foresight to introduce GST and saving us from the mess Guernsey is in?
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In the UK the electorate chose the Prime Minister by selecting the candidate they feel is best for the post e.g. labour or conservative. We do not do this. A select few decide against the majority’s wishes as to whom it will be. This is not democratic, even the UK way isn’t really democratic either.
I meet a very wide range of people all of which detest those in charge. Maybe you only mix with big business and the rich?
GST is a morally bankrupt tax affecting the poorer in our society whilst the rich escape unscathed. If this is your idea of a fair and just society no wonder Jersey is in the mess it is now. Equal taxes should be paid by all, not just the lower echelions. Jersey is on its way down it is only a matter of time before it goes completely. People are abusing the system over here and it will have major repercutions before too long. By all means follow blindly the CoM but if they can’t even fix future bills to prevent currency fluxuations then we have no hope whatsoever.
The CoM are also going along the immigration route as a method to combat the demographic time bomb, this is doomed to failure and will only lead to worse socio-economic problems in Jersey for the majority.
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Adrian,
You are a confused chap.
“Equal taxes should be paid by all, not just the lower echelions”
It is a simple, undeniable fact that the wealthy pay more than the poor. The more you earn, the more tax you pay: equal taxes are not paid by all, the better off in the Island pay virtually all of the taxes.
GST is a step, albeit a small one, to a more inclusive society where everyone contributes to the fiscal debt, not just those who work extremely hard, almost exclusively in the finance industry.
What you preach is not equality but inequality, a belief that “someone else should pay for me”. That’s fine, but don’t pretend its “fair and just”. Call it selfishness.
If you are worried about democracy, protest against the fact that Southern, Pitman, Higgins and Macon are sitting in the States and voting on Island wide issues despite being rejected by the Island wide electorate. That is an affront to democracy.
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mad foetus 93
The slection process for CM in Jersey and the selection process for PM in the UK is not the same. Here we vote for individuals rather than a party whose policy you agree with. The Jersey way allows too much scope for lies and manipulation.
When people voted labour into power they knew that the labour party had Blair at its helm; ipso facto they knew who would be PM if labour got in. The fact that after time the leadership changed is irrelevant because only a minority of the labour voters actually ticked a box with ‘Blair’ on it. The remainder voted for the party and its policies.
Over here the public vote for individuals who they might like for a number of good and not so good reasons. The choice of CM doesn’t come into it until the results are known. Ipso facto, the choice of CM does not necessarily reflect the wishes of the public.
The fact that the vote is secret is another sinister and undemocratic sham because it allows politicians to lie in the hustings to acheive votes.
Example.
Candidate 1 is known to support the views of Senator A and at the hustings he says that, if elected, he will vote for Senator A to be CM. He polls 1,000 votes and keeps his word.
Candidate 2 supports the views of Senator B but says that, if elected, he will vote for Senator A to be CM. He polls 200 votes. He votes for Senator B.
Candidate 3 is also known to support the views of Senator B and says that if elected he will vote for Senator B to be CM. He polls 100 votes and keeps his word.
All three are elected but only Candidate 1 and 3 secretly vote as they promised. Candidate 2 lied in the hustings but can vote the other way because it is secret.
Result: Candidate 1, with only one vote and despite having the backing of 1,000 voters does not see his choice for CM because Candidate’s 2 and 3, with less than half the joint number of voters backing them, also have a vote.
Senator B therefore becomes CM – against the majority will of the people. Ergo undemocratic.
The Jersey way
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Adrian
I fail to understand your argument that GST affects the poor but not the rich.
The more you spend the more GST you pay. One would assume the rich with a more deposable income spend more therefore pay more GST, this tax receipt would then in turn be used to target the needy.
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Nioleux
two points
1) Blair said he would serve a full third term: ergo the coronation of the strange and confused Mr Brown was undemocratic
2) Everyone who has ever worked with SS knows he is not chief ministerial material: in fact, name one person who can work with him. any CM must be able to command the support of the parliament, otherwise the system will break down
Finally, be in no doubt a lot of people have voted for SS who would not want him to be CM – he could be a good scrutiniser if he wasnt so prejudiced.
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mad foetus let me try and explain a bit better. How much do you think the top 100 people in Jersey earn? Bearing in mind they agree to pay £8M between then this equates to £80,000 per head.
£80,000 x 5 = £400,000 income at 20 means 20.
I rest my case.
Is £8M a fair return from the top 100 richest people in Jersey?
GST is a bad tax as it affects the poorest the most. Why take off the middle earners to pay the poorest when the rich aren’t affected to the same degree?
mad foetus please explain how 5 non elected members are in the States assembly? This is not democracy maybe you think this is?
The people you single out are more concerned about the ordinary people of Jersey unlike the CoM where many are either big business or rich. How is this democratic or a balanced government? How come these very people haven’t made employers legally responsible for redundancy? How come these peole have done nothing to protect the ordinary peoples’ money in their bank accounts over here?
Anyway as I have said before democracy is an illusion peddled by those running the show.
I believe equality to be paying the same percentage of tax across the board not altered to suit some as at present. Selfish is something which this capitalistic system thrives on as without it capitalism wouldn’t work. What type of system is it we work in??
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Mad Foetus
20% of a £1,000,000 is a teardrop in the ocean.
20% of £25,000 is a Tsunami in the ocean.
Given the majority of tax payers earn 25 grand or less, they pay proportionally far more taxes than those in the upper echalons and it is completely unfair. How can someone justify having an income of £800,000net per year its immoral – they should be stung for tax no matter how hard they work. those who are trying to survive on £20,000net per year (having given 5 grand to the taxman) should have the tax burden reduced, so in the politest possible way stick that up your Tory pipe and smoke it!
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Is anybody interested in purchasing a
Jimmy says “Top yourself” T-shirt?
£9.99 plus the GST of course!
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Adrian you are spot on
And Mr. Liberal. That’s what I was going to say proportionally the rich pay considerably less then someone who earns 25.000 how does that work get a good accountant who can make 2+2 equal 3 also social security tops at about 30.000 so any one earning more will proportionally pay less. Also if you have your own company you claim a hundred pounds a week for your income and the rest
of the million pounds gets spent on the up keep of the company I can assure you they will not be driving a ford fiesta or living in a dump bed set I am not saying what goes on is against the law but it is morally wrong And that is why we need fairer system.
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“People vote, then the CM is elected by his peers, same as in the UK.”
Mad Foetus, in Jersey if democratic public electoral opinion was taken into account neither Frank Walker nor Terry Le Sueur would have got within a mile of the Chief Minister’s job, both men scraping in at the bottom of the poll at their respective final public elections. Walker came 6th out 6, Le Sueur came 5th out of 6.
It says much about the nature of democracy in Jersey that following those low public results both men were then secretly voted by their political peers into the highest and most prestigious position of public office the island can offer.
It’s a mockery of democracy, as proven by Terry Le Sueur’s shamelessly despotic attitude with this Jimmy Perchard incident.
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Adrian,
So you now define what you mean by equality:
“I believe equality to be paying the same percentage of tax across the board not altered to suit some as at present”
But with the generous allowances in Jersey, a married couple earning say £60,000 will pay a much higher percentage than one earning half of that.
So it looks like the more you earn, the more you pay. Presumably, according to your logic, the poor should be required to pay more?
Of course, a small number of ultra rich people are allowed to live here on generous deals. But then, they wouldn’t be here otherwise, they’d be in Monaco, or Switzerland, the Isle of Man, Guernsey, Cayman, Singapore…all small States offer these deals.
In the end, those 100 pay £8m that we otherwise would not have to pay for our hospitals. Or perhaps you would like to increase GST to 4p to make up the funding gap?
And as for Mr Liberal saying how can someone have an income of £800,000, its immoral…
Well, I know a number of people with an income around that figure and all have built up businesses from scratch that employ many people. It’s called hard work, putting yourself on the line, often putting 80 hours or more a week in the office for years and years, and I couldn’t have done it so I don’t begrudge them a penny.
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mad foetus £8M is irrelevant when the island spends £600M per year and you know it.
It is interesting you try and twist my words to justify a select minority being beyond the system and actually telling income tax what they will pay in tax. Maybe this should apply across the board or are some people more equal than others?
I tell you what I would like and it is that these 100 richest people would pay a realistic level of tax and come in line with the rest. This is only fair in an allegedly democratic society. Just think if they paid £100M instead of the present contribution we wouldn’t need GST. Or do you agree with GST then?
You still don’t understand that GST is a regressive tax that hits the poorer in our society the most.
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Mad foetus another point to clarify what I believe in. and this is the treatment of all in a fair, impartial manner. I have no concerns if someone wants to earn lots of money. In fact the more the better because then they would pay more tax if I was in charge.
If someone could earn £1B this year in Jersey I would be delighted because at 20 means 20, after basic allowances like the married man’s allowance etc they would be paying a little under £200M in tax. Thus the need for GST would be done away with. This is fair and this is equitable.
Anyone who doesn’t agree with this is, as far as I am concerned, morally and ethically bankrupt, as they are advocating greed and self service, to the detriment of all others. This is the reason the planet is in this mess as there are too many greedy people, out to get what they want, at all costs, to everything and everyone else. This is why capitalism is bad, it functions as a catalyst to encourage the worst in people. Sharing and caring have no worth in the work place, or business front, as these qualities aren’t what is required to get to the top of the pile.
As per becoming rich it doesn’t necessarily mean working harder it just means working smarter than others and using others (your workers) to make you money. You can then ditch these workers when it suits your interests and move to places like Jersey to save you paying tax. However your workers don’t get these type of breaks and have to pay more because of the shortfall by these smarter business types.
No I don’t degrudge anyone earning what they can, but I do expect them to participate in the same tax structure as the rest. You on the other hand appear to think this is fair and above board. If this is so then your morals and ethics are different to mine.
I would say this is why the planet is in the mess it is, as not enough people have the right sort of morals and ethics, to realise that everything has its price. The price for this system WILL be the collpase of everything we now take for granted. Is this what you really want, just so a few can have what they want?
What use will all this money be when the economic and financial systems collapse and nature turns against us? People need to get a grip before they are shocked into reality. Ignorance is not bliss in the longer term.
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Nurses, teachers, fireman, policeman. All do important jobs and the majority of them earn between 25K and 40K. to tax them 20% and to tax someone who earns 1M 20% is wrong.
I believe that those who earn over 100K per year should be taxed on a sliding scale up to at least 40%.
Proportionality is my argument. 20% is 20% is poorly thought out tax structure in my view. I can imagine over 90% of people in Jersey would agree with me.
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mad foetus 98
two points.
1) It is not uncommon for the leader of a political party to change. This happens for a number of reasons. That is why people in the UK vote for party policy rather than personality.
2) I made no reference to any particular Senator so your second point is irrelevant. My point was a direct response to your comment that our democratic process is like the UK. It is far from it and is not only open to abuse but is abused and manipulated.
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Margaret – you’re wrong. Public electoral opinion has been taken into account as the candidates likely to vote for Walker and/or Le Sueur were voted in.
Waspish – you’re wrong: “Proportionally the rich pay considerably less then someone who earns 25,000″. No they don’t. If two taxpayers pay the same percentage, they are paying the same proportion (i.e. the proportion of their income is 20%!). You cannot have a fairer system than everyone paying the same %.
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Welcometothejungle the very rich are not paying 20% hence the top 100 only paying £8M. This is why this systemn is unfair.
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Adrian,
I don’t disagree with a lot of what you say. In particular, I think capitalism is, in its very nature, largely based on exploiting natural resources that should not be exploited at all. And I find it depressing that in this recession nobody is talking about making a sustainable future – instead all people seem to focus on is creating growth, which is the main source of our problem.
But I do have a difficulty with people attacking those who pay much more tax than them on the basis of inequality. I think one of Jersey’s major problems is that people near the bottom have not, historically, paid enough tax, and so there has been no pressure to reduce States spending as its always been someone else who pays.
And GST is a great tax – it taxes consumption, with the suckers who buy Armani clothes paying much more than those who shop elsewhere. That’s why virtually every country in the world charges GST or a variant.
And Nioleux, Blair said he would stay for a full third term. The reason he said that was because everyone knows people would never trust Brown. The majority in Jersey wanted, knew they were going to get, and got, TLS.
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“Margaret – you’re wrong. Public electoral opinion has been taken into account as the candidates likely to vote for Walker and/or Le Sueur were voted in.”
Welcometothejungle, your counter-argument is fundamentally flawed. It relies solely on the assumption that the public had clear knowledge of how those candidates intended to vote for Chief Minister.
Please cast your mind back to last year’s hustings. The *majority* of candidates defending seats in the States *refused* to answer when asked who they would be voting for in the ballot for Chief Minister.
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Interesting points mad foetus. Capitalism is as you say all about exploitation of everything, hence the mess we are in and it will only get worse. I view it as I would a plague of locusts in a field. It strips everything bare before it moves on to its next opportunity, leaving behind a waste land of nothing.
I am all for a sustainable future, and have been for more than 30 years, but this doesn’t sit well with this capitalistic system we have, which is all about more, more and more. Money as I have said before is not what its made out to be. They focus on it as the cure all when it is actually contributed to things getting much worse as it enables hoarding of resources which before money was much harder to do. People still can’t see that money is basically a made up thing that has no reality except in people’s minds. This is why it is dependent on confidence which is a state of mind. The more confidence, the more people believe in it, and the less the more people disbelieve in it. Money is therefore a dependent on a state of mind nothing more and nothing less.
I have slight confusion as to why you think the poorer should pay more tax when the rich don’t pay the same percentage. To me everyone should pay the same percentage.
The States are run for big business and the rich so are facing away from the average person who would not be wasting this sort of money on useless items like steam clocks etc.
My arguement as per GST is the fact that it affects the poorer to a larger extent than the rich who lets face it don’t give a damn about paying 3% extra on a few things like food here when they can import everything else they want cheaper from overseas and so avoid this tax anyway especially if their suit is under £400. I would prefer a tax leeved on all income set at say 20% and no allowances so everyone would pay tax. Those too poor to manage would be given an allowance to enable them to live.
However I don’t agree with people being paid such poor wages that they can’t live. This shouldn’t be happening. Wages should commence at a level above the poverty line then allowances wouldn’t be needed would they?
I prefer an all inclusive society where things are shared and the common good comes before the single good. Unfortunately capitalism doesn’t like this. Also many people are naturally greedy and selfish and don’t give a damn about others. This is a major fault in our system as we know it. This is why it is set up to fail long term. Unsustainability is not an option and capitalism is unsustainable hence it has to go or we will face major catastrophes in the coming years.
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I have followed with interest the discussion between Leah, Mad Foetus and Adrian about democracy.
I have my own word for what kind of ‘ocracy Jersey has but unfortunately it is unacceptabe on two counts. Firstly it is a mixture of Latin and Greek so pedants would instantly be on my back. Secondly it is unprintable on here but I have to tell you that it sounds good especially when the derivation is explained.
Democracy is government by the people for the people.
“Blank”ocracy is government by “blanks” for “blanks”. Now fill in the blanks!
Could be anything depending on your stance – even banks!
Or could be Latin/Greek with the explanation in a more northerly ancient language.
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