2

Sarah

why should a woman end up having a baby because of someone she doesnt knows beliefs.

if she feels that strongly maybe she should leave her job

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4

PJG

What next a Muslim pharmacist refusing to sell cough mixture because it contains alcohol ?
These fanatics need to get real.

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6

JAB

This is out of order. How frightening must it be for most women to go to their doctors, admit what’s happened and again to the pharmacist…to be slapped in the face with religion.

Surely staff high or low should agree to provide ALL services demanded by their employer – especially somewhere with situations as potentially upsetting as the medical profession. The Society should not have a ‘get out clause’ – referring someone to make them say it AGAIN is inviting people who are trying to do the right thing to run away and hide.

You don’t have to believe everything in your job is morally right to do it (eg. selling cigarettes) – but if you feel that strongly, change jobs to where you’re comfortable – and the public can receive unbiased service when they’re in need.

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8

Gerry

Lots of religion is only skin deep, so its refreshing to find someone who has the courage to act out their convictions. This is not news really as the Royal Pharmaceutical Society guidelines are established and sensible. Its also interesting to note that at least one person on the island is uncomfortable with the status quo – that any young person (even under – age) can sleep around without their parents knowledge and consent, and with the full support of the medical/pharmaceutical profession who will help them out with the consequences with little or no reference to the proven emotional trauma or after effects. I wonder why Jersey has the worst STD rate in the whole of europe (the more cemantic reader may point out that Jersey is not in Europe – OK the Uk has the worst percentage of STDs in Europe, but Jersey’s percentage is at least 2% higher than the UK. Our young people deserve to be taught to respect themselves and their bodies, and to wait for a relationship that will support them through the long term, thus avoiding the scarring of many rejections and giving “their all” to whover and often.

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10

Leah Holmes

Gerry #8, well said. It is ridiculous that the same medical professionals who take an oath to care for (physically AND mentally) their patients are expected by their Governments to essentially ‘help’ kids have sex without anyone in a position of guardianship over those kids knowing and being able to check that they have proper health information, never mind the emotional maturity to be taking this step.

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12

alexa

No one is asking the pharmacist to take the morning after pill herself. If I worked in a newsagents I would have to sell cigarettes even though I don’t smoke. Why become a pharmacist if you feel this way?

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14

zig

Mr Suffering, if a condom breaks a morning after pill may be exactly what you need, and the same if a contraceptive pill has been overlooked.

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16

Mo

Totally agree with No 2 (Sarah), this pharmacist needs to have a reality check and not allow religion come between her and her actual job, she decided on that career and she not have issues in giving out the morning after pill…

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18

Sarah

Why do you assume that someone is sleeping around to need the morning after pill?

Condoms split, accidents happen. At least they are doing something about it, not bringing and unwanted child into the world

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20

Someone

People do stupid things, even accidents happen, ever had condom break?
Then theres that lovely subject called rape. How many women/girls believe they might have. Its herd all over the news how many won’t report it for what ever reason. Why should they have to admit to some all abiding god squader what may/did happen in order to be safe.

This pharmacist does not have the right to dictate how people live their lives, even more so to make one of the most live changing and important decisions for them.

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22

Simon

@PJG

What on earth has being Muslim got to do with it? There is no mention of the person’s religion and unless you are judging them on the colour of their skin then have you considered they could be Christian / hindu / sikh / jewish or many other faiths which can be interpreted to disagree?
I agree it is inconvenient and they have an obligation to ensure the patient can still get the service easily but we all make decisions everyday about what we do and don’t do because of our beliefs.

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24

Moi

This is simply ridiculous. Religion should not get into this at all and is just being touted around now as an excuse to be awkward in my opinion.

I am fed up of all this PC rubbish. The pharmacist is there to do a job, end of. She didn’t do her job and so should be sacked.

What about my beliefs that this shouldn’t happen in today’s society?? We are in the 21st cebtury now not medieval times!

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26

sus

UNBELIEVEABLE!!!!!

I am all for respecting religious beleifs of others, but this takes the biscuit- the pharmacist is religious but at the same time is not respecting the beliefs of others!!!! This is Jersey, a free island where people are not discriminated against because of their race or belief – if you dont like it – LEAVE to a place where your religion is practiced throughout. Please don’t judge other peoples decisions, even if it does go against your religion- after all, its not the pharmacist that is taking the morning after pill!

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28

Cinders

We live in a democratic society, with freedom of choice for women, thanks to the likes of Emily Pankhurst and many other Suffragettes.
I agree that this pharmacist has a right to her own beliefs, but that is what they should remain- her own personal beliefs, and not impose them onto others by refusing to supply a woman with what is a ‘legal’ medicine. She is also passing judgement on these women; she does not necessarily know the individual circumstances that belie the woman having to seek this pill in the first place.

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30

Michael Neal

‘The pharmacist…who provides methadone to drug addicts but won’t give the morning-after pill’

‘When asked if it was ethical for the pharmacist to refuse women the morning-after pill but give methadone to drug addicts…’

Can the author please explain why this particular comparison is being made?

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32

Big Bean

This lady must not be allowed to get away with this. If she does, then where do we draw the line. Do teachers stop teaching kids because they have different beliefs. Do doctors refuse to treat patients. Maybe my postman might not deliver my mail any more because I’m a Jedi. (I’m not, I just thought I would throw that in)

The fact is in a muilticultural society we should learn to get along with others and respect their beliefs. This lady may choose to not to use the morning after pill, but she has no right to inflict her beliefs on others.

I for one, as will many others I have spoken to on the subject, will not be stepping foot in this pharmacy again.

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34

Edna Cloud

Comment 23 – “This action could have devastating consequences to a woman in need” – only if Roseville was the only chemist on the island.

I can’t believe the number of people expressing views far more extreme than those of the pharmacist, the facts are.

1 – The pharmacist did not break the law or the laws of her contract.

2 – She acted according to her religion which is neither illegal or immoral.

3 – She is not telling anyone how to live their lives, just how she chooses to live hers.

4 – There are dozens of other pharmacies available, several within walking distance.

Come on people, when did we lose the right to act within the law and have moral convictions?

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36

D Le Geyt

It is a shame that in Jersey now that people are projecting their own religeous beliefs onto others. The pharmacist may not agree with her clients decision but she has a professional and ethical duty to provide the medication. Let us keep peoples’ personal religeous choices out of matters of commerce, education, law, government and health care.

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38

Teresa

The customer was not treated in a sympathetic manner she should have been directed to a pharmacy that could sell her the mornng after pill. Roseville Pharmacy should clearly advise would be customers as to when the morning after pill will not be dispensed from their pharmacy – as should other chemists in the island. Could anyone twll me why the issue of methadone was used to illustrate this story – what exactly is the corelation?

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40

P Lee

The women in the pharacy is in the wrong job, it is here job to sell medication. If she is not happy with it she needs to get another. Belief in weird cults have no place in this situation.

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42

Leah Holmes

Come on guys, you can’t blame a religion that advocates no sex outside marriage for adding to the AIDS issue just because it doesn’t allow contraception, I’ve never heard such a lame excuse for promiscuity. You are either a strict Catholic (in which case you won’t have sex outside marriage) or you aren’t (in which case it won’t matter what the Pope says about contraception!) Any other issues, like forced intercourse are a matter for the law and are not about religion.

It’s so easy to blame the Pope I’m sure, I’m not his biggest fan by any stretch of the imagination, but it isn’t his fault, it is the fault of society (wherever that society may be).

I also love the assumption that this woman is a ‘God-botherer’ or a ‘religious crackpot’ who is ‘judging’ the women! Who said this? Where is the evidence? It is very possible she just said that it conflicted with HER religious views for HER to dispense this contraception. If someone feels judged by that then I can only imagine it is because they feel in themselves that they did something wrong.

Being in a loving relationship and using contraception very responsibly, if I found myself in the situation of needing the morning-after pill I certainly wouldn’t be embarrased by a woman saying it conflicted with her religious views to give me it. I would simply go elsewhere. I wouldn’t feel judged either since I would be fully aware that I hadn’t done anything wrong!

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44

Finchos

I wonder if this pharmacist also refuses to sell condoms and contraceptive pills to people who fail to provide their marriage certificate at the till. As far as I am aware this is the only pharmacist open on a Sunday selling the Morning-after pill, so the “voting with your feet” argument has its flaws. Whilst we should support those with religious beliefs as they generally are a good morale framework in which to abide by, those with religious beliefs should nt be so arrogant as to think that their belief system is the only right way to lead ones life. Living by example, and having compassion for fellow man is a right step forward, which seems to have been ignored in this case. Would we see a JW doctor refusing blood transfusions to patients in need? I should think not. The pharmacist needs to realise that her religious beliefs cannnot be forced upon other people, and unfortunately this type of example just creates a greater divide between believers and non-believers. Perhaps the pharmacist needs to consider how she conducts herself and her business to ensure she is not hypocritical in her operations.

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46

Leah Holmes

And contrary to popular belief… contraception, if use responsibly very, very rarely fails! And by responsibly I mean reading the instructions that come with the pill, not being ridiculously drunk when relying on a condom.

Yes it is not 100% effective but in almost every case of it ‘failing’ (that I been made aware of) there has been human error. And these cases have included well-educated seemingly intelligent people!

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48

PJG

Simon @24
Get off your high horse and read my @4 again.
This pharmacist refused to supply a drug because of “her” religious beliefs.
I was merely showing the Muslim faiths banning of alcohol “could”, using the religious belief excuse end up with the refusal of a request for cough mixture (a lot of cough mixture contains alcohol).
A sad state of affairs as we are not governed by any religion or superstition

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50

michael

its not her baby maybe the pregnant woman was struggling for money, wouldn’t have enough to raise the child and the child wouldn’t have a good life. As a philosphy student at grainville i realise she belives in the sanctity of life but if your going let your religion get in the way of your job should she really be working in a pharmacy which may force you to give the morning after pill out.

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52

catia

As a student from grainville school i think the lady should have a pill because she might not want to be pregant and have the baby. so she should have the pill in the end. but its also her fault for getting pregant in the first place if she new she didnt want the baby why did she do it.
the pharmacy is getting out of hand aswell for refuseing to give the pill to the customer. and if it where me i would fire that pharmacy person and never give him a job again if hes goin to be like that. that is just awful.

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54

Tia

i think it is ridiculous how she can not give a woman a morning after pill, it is the pregnant womans choice to have the abortion she can have it up to 24 weeks then she has to have the baby As a student of grainville school i realise that the pharmasist obviously believes in the sanctity of life which is GG- god given, all life is god given,ND- never destroyed, all life should never be destroyed, R – respect, respect each others life,P-precious, all life is precious, P- purpose, all life has a purpose as if god has a plan for us all. i also believe that if she is working in a chemist she should be able to prescribe the morning after pill and she shouldnt be working there if she isnt going to give it out to people because of her beliefs there for the woman would have to have the baby.

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56

Leah Homes

Finchos… you may be missing the point of what emergency contraceptives are.

Firstly, they were intended to be for use where primary methods of contraception had failed, but are increasingly used to defend someone from the actions of their own stupidity.

Secondly, there are many people who believe that these drugs kill what is already a living organism that could go on to become a human being. This is not just people being silly, there is evidence to back it up and a lack of evidence to the contrary and there are scientists in this very field who believe it kills a blastocyst (something which some people believe to be a living being).

The woman (if these are her beliefs) would not just be helping prevent someone get pregnant, it could be that she is helping the woman kill a living being. Now that is not just down to religion that is also down to morals.

I know pharmacists who take this stance purely on moral grounds (they aren’t religious) and the Government does not have a right to tell them to ‘kill’, and that is what it is to them until science can prove it doesn’t ever kill a living being.

As for not going into pharmacy… has it occured to anyone that she may have been a pharmacist long before these drugs were forced on pharmacists by the government?

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58

Flic

Just because this pharmacist refused to hand over the morning after pill does not mean that the woman in question has no option but to have the baby, it would have been quite possible to walk around the corner to another pharmacist. Although I can understand that in this situation she was likely to have been under a large amount of stress and been so appalled at the lack of aid she received at her time of emergency. It is situations like this that are unfortunately unavoidable in a democratic society as everyone in todays society has very different views, religions etc. This will, like in this case come into conflict with each other and cause an uproar and legally this pharmacist did nothing wrong. All she did was exercise her discretionary rights, as an atheist myself I may not agree with her decision to do this but I respect her rights. Also in this case, risking coming into conflict with those opposed to abortion, the morning after pill is not a form of abortion as at the point at which the morning after pill is effective there is no baby, only a few cells. On the same point condoms and the contraceptive pill when used in conjunction are possibly more effective to prevent such a situation. Does anyone have any proof that the same pharmacist has refused to sell condoms and/or the contraceptive pill?

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60

Puzzled

The thing with this issue is, the pharmacist ISN’T actually breaking any laws, legal or professional, in deliberately withholding the morning after pill from her patients, provided (as the article says) she gives them an alternative place to go …

… so really-speaking we’re just debating the morality behind her decision, which is, like most things of its ilk, two-fold.

I take the point many people have made about it being a rather poor show to see, perhaps young girls for example, who are terrified at the prospect that they might be pregnant after an indiscretion, the most obvious solution to their problems being withheld from them, but by the same token I do agree that there are other measures that can be taken, such as the use of condoms, AND ultimately just going and giving your business to another pharmacy, which makes this issue more a moral blip than a major cause for concern.

Personally I’m sitting on the fence, as I think it’s rather unfair to question a pharmacist’s professional ethic based on this single example. After all, a pharmacist dispenses a lot more than just contraceptive solutions … and whilst many of us here have had a strong morally-based response to her decision, the fact remains – as I said earlier – that her decision is ENDORSED by the Royal Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain, so I am sure they themselves have debated the level of power they have given to pharmacists in this regard … perhaps it’s them to whom you should be directing your criticism if you feel it warranted ?

Don’t get me wrong, as I say, I’m not coming down on EITHER side on this one as I can see both sides … I just think that there are plenty of other MORE significant issues that we as an island have to address at the moment, than this one topic.

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62

Big Bean

Leah, comment 45.

To correct you. and I know as I had to research this: No doctor would stand by and let a child die because the parents refused a blood transfusion. Child Protection overrides everything, and also, the doctor has taken an oath to save lives.

Have you ever heard of a case where a doctor has been prosecuted for saving a childs life against the parents wishes?

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64

Nioleux

While I understand the moral and ethical issues involved with sex and contraception, am I the only one stuggling with the dichotomous position of the pharmacy in catering for heroin addicts while denying assistance with contraception?

Sex is natural, legal, healthy but mistakes do happen which need compassion, understanding and resolution.

Consuming refined narcotic substances is un-natural, illegal and unhealthy.

One should be helped, the other should be punished.

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66

Leah Homes

She didn’t force the woman to ‘convert’ to her views that we know. We should be assuming she made a simple statement about her own inability to do what the customer (not patient) required and did it politely and kindly and directed the customer to someone who could.

Storm in a teacup. Maybe all those up in arms about this should be thinking of how as a society we can stop so many people getting to the state of needing the morning after pill, that’s a bigger problem frankly. It is a serious medication and should be treated as such, but clearly now gets used to mop up other people’s messes and somewhat on a whim also (not in all cases of course!)

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68

Leah Homes

#60 and #63, I couldn’t agree more.

It is amazing how much assumption and judgement is being levelled at the pharmacist when the article says nothing about what actually happened! All this by people who are accusing HER of being judgemental, despite a lack of any evidence to support that

All we know for fact is that a woman did not get the ECP from that specific pharmacist. We actually know nothing of whether the pharmacist was kind and sensitive to the woman’s needs, or whether she verbally abused the woman publicly (unlikely I would think!)

I would never have accepted a position requiring me to give out this pill or perform abortions as I disagree with both (except in special circumstances). No-one has the right to require me to do either of these as I would be the one having to live with the fact that I had taken a life (the way I see it until evidence shows otherwise) not them. Does anyone ask you in your job to assist in taking a life?

Judge not lest you be judged!

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70

Gemma

Guys, the pharmacist is in the right none of us would like to be forced into doing something we didnt agree with…..what are actually debating about is the fact that a women feels that put out about not getting what she wanted she felt that she needed to go to the media!! Hasnt she anything else better to do? Obviously the niht before she did! At the end of the day she is after the morning after pill…..do any women like to keep anything discreet anymore??? Why are we always on about our rights?? What about the rights of each other, how come we are always out to disgrace someone else?

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72

Michel

Sus no 26: “if you dont like it – LEAVE to a place where your religion is practiced throughout” This is a RACIST remark! Shocked that the JEP prints this.

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74

Chris

Although no rules or law was broken, I find this situation worrying.

Would it be acceptable for a Catholic Science teacher to apply their beliefs of creation to interfere with the teaching of evolution?

I hope not.

Also I echo the comments made earlier – what about my belief system? Which is in direct conflict with peolple such as this pharmacist. That religion is personal and should be kept as such.

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76

Big Bean

Tom. I don’t think people are getting worked up over this woman’s beliefs, but the fact that her beliefs are infringing on other people’s rights.

Going to the chemist and being refused contraception is a bit like going to the butchers and being refused sausages on the grounds the sales assistant is a vegetarian, which is highly unlikely as any vegetarian would would anywhere else but a butchers.

Perhaps this woman should ask herself is she in the right job?

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78

Keith

Leah Holmes – lots of excellent comment here from you. Structured, intelligent argument not clouded by emotion.

Totally wasted on some people I’m afriad, Edna Cloud comment 34 sums it up – she has done nothing wrong.

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80

Sarah H

I am not bothered by the womans own religious views thats up to her.

What bothers me is the fact she is pushing them on someone else.

And Roseville is the only late opening and sunday opening pharmacy in town.

In my view she had no right to push her views onto someone else. And if she is Roman Catholic then she is being a hypocrite selling condoms and opening on Sundays IF she owns the pharmacy.

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82

Moi

Why should the woman have to go to another pharmacy because of this person’s beliefs? What if the next pharmacy has someone with similar beliefs then where do you stop?
Before you decide to work in any profession if you have strong religious beliefs then maybe you should check the job description before applying! Most jobs have job descriptions to state what the job involves and presumably this would have been the case for the pharmacy worker??
Imagine if a fireman didn’t want to put out a fire because of his beliefs, a paramedic not wanting to save a life or a lifeguard for that matter.

This is not just about the morning after pill people!! For all of you who sympathise with the employee then maybe you should consider how you’d feel if you needed a service for something extremely important to you or your love ones only to be refused because they didn’t think you should have it!!!

T

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84

Moi

Adrian 77.

hardly a difficult topic. the morning after pill is a contraceptive not a form of abortion…..there would not be any embryo at this stage because the pill is designed to prevent pregnancy!!!

Didn’t study biology at school I see.

Leah 66.

I disagree….I believe religion is the biggest problem we have today, not people wanting the morning after pill. A huge amount of problems throughout the world are caused be religion not by using contraceptive pills…..actually quite the opposite. Not using a contraceptive pill is a major problem!!

Judging by your comment on this I presume you are privy to the statistics and know the actual numbers of all these women who are a scurge on society because they want the morning after pill!!

What if the reason for needing the contraceptive was because the woman had been raped?? would you still condone the pharmacists actions??

Lets also consider that religion is hypocritical and most people bend it’s “interpretation” to suit themselves or their own purposes!

Get a grip.

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86

Leah Holmes

Moi, I find it difficult to think of anything to say that doesn’t sound disrespectful. Firstly I made it clear there are circumstances where I would have no issue with the ECP or abortion, i.e. rape or the woman’s life being in danger by continuing with the pregnancy. What I don’t agree with is society’s need for someone, in fact anyone, to solve every single mistake they make…

No point starting me on religion cause I’m quite clear on the fact that man causes problems because man chooses to and what he decides to blame it on is up to him but frankly he makes his own choice and should take responsibility for himself. Even back in the days before most modern religions existed (and certainly before Christianity) people were being killed over what we now class as science… I don’t see you blaming science though. I don’t doubt that people are still killed in the name of science. Religion is such an easy target and people just shut their eyes to the fact that man kills for any number of reasons that are nothing to do with religion but are simply to do with greed, poverty, jealousy… the list is endless.

As I stated, there are people who simply refuse to give out the ECP on purely moral grounds (i.e. they are non-religious), does that get your back up also? Probably not as much I suspect. You don’t have to be religious to have morals and to hold to them at all costs. I’m not religious but were I a doctor I would not perform abortions unless there was an issue of rape or life-threatening problems for the mother.

There is a huge problem in our society of people failing to take responsibility for their actions and I believe any sane, intelligent person can see that day in day out if they just have their eyes open. If you don’t consider that a problem then you surely must live in a utopia.

Also, as I’ve said many times this pharmacist may well have been doing this job for decades… long before such a pill (which may well kill what some believe to be a living human being) came along. Why should she leave her job and lose her income? Would you happily leave your job tomorrow because one woman was irked enough to go to the papers but not irked enough to be named? It strikes me as the actions of someone who felt bad themselves and wanted someone else to put the ‘heat’ onto. You only feel guilt if you feel you have possibly done something wrong.

Was the pharmacist forced to give out the ECP then what we would have is the conditions of someone’s terms of employment being changed drastically (if you consider the ECP to possibly be killing a living being) without her getting a say. It is NOT a medicine in the sense that other drugs are. It doesn’t cure anyone or aid their wellbeing. It is a drug that shouldn’t even be needed but for exceptional circumstances.

Such a major change in any other job would result in strikes and public uproar yet this woman simply states her case (as far as we know perfectly kindly and sensitively) and that’s the end of it. I know which I prefer!

People really need to put themselves in this woman’s shoes and ask what major changes could happen in their own job in decades to come before judging her.

Given how easy it is to get contraception and how easy it is to use it sensibly it worries me greatly that we have so many people requiring the morning-after pill. Are so many people really so unable to control themselves or plan ahead?

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88

Kipper

Rozel comment 85 – brilliant suggestion, of course you have to figure that someone who doesn’t have condoms and isn’t on the pill yet chooses to have sex isn’t burdoned with intelligence.

Moi – I fear that you do not understand religion as Leah clearly does. It is not the biggest problem in the world, the religion is sound, it’s people’s interpretation of it that’s skewed.

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90

Adrian

Moi you don’t understand biology I’m afraid, once an egg is fertilised it is a living entity or didn’t you realise this?

Therefore it is a type of abortion as it affects the development of the embryo by stopping it implanting in the womb.

This is why this subject is a difficult one. Where do you draw the line as regards a life? Is it not sacred? If it is why are lives taken? After birth it is defined as murder up to a certain time before birth it is not a crime. Where is the logic in this?

Either something is alive or it is not. There is no inbetween stange.

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92

alexa

This woman is paid to do a job and if part of her job involves serving customers who want the morning after pill then she should serve them. Nobody is forcing her to take the pill.

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94

No One

I have to agree with you D le Geyt. I know how I felt like I was being judged as some sort of slapper when I was at getting the morning after pill without having someone tell me they wouldn’t sell it to me (I doubt I was being judged and I only got it cos I’ve been suffering some medical problems linked with the normal oral pill, as well as having suffered 2 miscarrages in a year)

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96

Leah Holmes

D Le Geyt, a pharmacist will know when they train that they have to give out animal based products, this pill is relatively new and may take a human life.

People will refuse to give out the ECP purely on moral grounds… what’s your answer to that? Should someone not be allowed to stick to their own morals. Would you break your own morals for your job? I wouldn’t.

If the ECP was on prescription then I presume the pharmacist would give it out as it would be a prescribed medication. The ECP is a ‘luxury’ in a medical sense, it’s not a treatment to an illness. Would you take any other medication when perfectly healthy? Pills are not sweets, and as humans we need to start making good choices for our own bodies not just relying on medicine to fix everything for us. Frankly, we’re becoming quite a pathetic lot who just depend on medicine to fix our laziness, drunkenness, idiocy and continue on with our irresponsible behaviour. This takes vital resources away from people who live relatively sensible, healthy lives but are just unlucky enough to get ill. Our health service would cope brilliantly if it didn’t have to mop up our self-made messes so often. Your social security payments might even lessen!

Moi, the ECP is not an oral contraceptive pill, it is totally different, it certainly isn’t equivalent to condoms. As far as science is concerned it may be aborting embryos, that is why some people (including scientists) take issue with it. As for my experience, I am in a position where people can be open an honest with me and tell me the things they won’t admit to family, friends, or even themselves. You would be amazed at how successfully we as humans can lie to ourselves even. You’d be amazed at how many women using the ECP feel guilt over what they have done that has led them to need it. But the ease of fixing the problem makes it more likely they’ll end up in that situation again. I don’t judge the individuals, people make their decisions given the information and feelings they have at the time. It does show me though that on a wider scale more education is needed. And I don’t mean adverts on abortion or condoms, history already shows that’s just going to make the problem worse. We need education about consequences, taking responsibility for our own actions, how something will affect us emotionally short and long-term!

Kipper, thanks. I’m not sure it’s my understanding of religion that’s good more just watching people and seeing that there is a core human nature regardless of religion, race, background, education… people choose to ignore this cause they prefer to have something to blame that means it could never be them, but the evidence is all around them that it is just human nature. They ignore that most ‘religious’ wars involve people who have been promised their family’s wellbeing, or are actually about land. They ignore the fact that when man doesn’t have religion he still finds a reason to war, be it oil, land, poverty.

People don’t realise that countries where religion is banned have actually just banned free speech period! Some of the worst atrocities are carried out in these countries. I recieved an email about what has been called ‘the worst case of human torture’ just today and that is in a country that was awarded the Olympics and it’s a very regular occurence there! They are carried out on individuals and so manage to avoid the press that a war gets. We should be grateful we live somewhere with relative free speech. If you ban religion you have to ban all cults, sects, followers of specific philosophies and infact just followers of any ideology… ultimately it does lead to just banning free speech.

I would bet that more people are killed in one-on-one incidents worldwide than through war. Human nature.

As for this being the only pharmacy open on a Sunday, shouldn’t we be grateful that we can get medication on a Sunday? What if this row led the pharmacy to close on a Sunday? Then genuinely ill people wouldn’t get help. I don’t see that limiting the services available to the public on a Sunday is a reason for complaint, we should be grateful that this pharmacy is providing any service on a Sunday.

The ECP is not a condom, it’s not an oral contraceptive pill. It’s not a treatment either. And consider how many of the women requiring it will also be put at risk of catching STDs. From my experience it is the minority that are in steady relationships that just have a genuine accident! We should be extremely concerned given our ridiculously high STD rate.

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98

Fertilized egg

Every one should know that loads of people have different views about this type of thing. Say if some one had a one night stand got drunk and the morning later they think they might have got pregant?

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100

alex

As a student from Grainville School this is outrageous because of this women, a lady is going to have a baby she does not want, or love. How do you think the baby will feel growing up knowing its not loved because of one stupid woman (the pharmacist) whom should leave her belief ‘s at home. When it’s not there decision what other people do with there lives. Your religion should not affect your work. For all you no she may have needed it to because her job in more important or even it was just a fling and she has kind of her own or even they don’t have enough money to keep the baby so there could be no point having it at the moment! why take up an job what would conflict with your religion ???

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102

Leah Holmes

#62 Big Bean, from experience I know of a case where a child died due to the parent’s refusal of a blood transfusion. I knew the parents, which is all the evidence I need. I also knew of a woman who died due to refusing treatment from a male doctor, my friend was the midwife trying desperately to reason with her. By the time the woman agreed it was too late. This wasn’t published before, maybe due to its sensitive nature, but both were in the UK and we’re not talking decades ago either. It does happen. I can only conclude that your research did not include every doctor in the world.

And if you’re doing such research you’ll know just how much goes on within medicine that stays within medicine. As musicians would say ‘what goes on the road, stays on the road’!

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104

Lula

Leah – accidents happen and I agree the morning after pill should not be used as a form of contraception (as it clearly states on the box and leaflet) it is needed in case the worse happens – such as someone has been raped, drugged or simply the condom split. Who the hell is this woman to deny our legal right to the morning after pill – who is she to decide for us whether or not we have a child…?

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106

Keith

Lula comment 104 – “Who the hell is this woman to deny our legal right to the morning after pill – who is she to decide for us whether or not we have a child…?”

She is not denying you the pill, you can go to any other chemist for it. She is acting within the law and within the royal pharmaceutical society’s guidelines.

She has done nothing wrong – blimey don’t you people get it. If you disagree with the law then lobby for its change but don’t persecute someone for acting within the law to exercise her religious beliefs.

This seems incredibly simple to me and yet people are behaving as if she has broken the law or at least the conditions of her employment – she has not.

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108

sanity

I wonder how much of the above criticism stems from the fact that this lady was a Christian. If she was of a minority faith would the call be “Human Rights”.

I do however agree this is not satisfactory and that the lady in question should have bought this to the attention of her employer before there was a problem and proper arrangements made.

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110

Moi

88 Kipper.
Without going into longwinded, self righteous lectures…that was my point! And frankly I don’t care to “understand” religion….it’s a fairytale…I live in the real world of science, but I will certainly not let my beliefs interfere with my duties working in a service industry! If people want to have their own faiths (and many are contradictory) then that’s fine, but when it interferes with my life unneccesarily then I have the right to be irked. It seems everything around us today is all about other peoples religious beliefs and opinions. What about ours??

The fact of the matter is these women wanted a pill, someone did not agree with their decision and refused. This is not right. Say you wanted to go into HMV and buy your Take that CD from a “decent” music fan and they refused. How would you feel? I bet you’d make a complaint to the manager hey?

85 not the best suggestion to buy the morning after pill before hand is it? The point of this pill is to use it as a last resort! The pill, condoms or evening abstaining from sex should suffice.

Tom 63.
You talk of tolerance. Does it have to be one-sided then? Where is the pharmacists tolerance? I believe none was displayed by refusing to sell the contraceptive.

Surely if god was all forgiving in any faith, he would not judge a person for carrying out their reponsibilities even if it was not condoned??

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112

J-Cat

As a non student of Grainville school I am a little concerned about the ‘knowledge’ being imparted to our children..

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114

Outsider

Firstly, I find it appalling in this day and age that a pharmacist would turn down any woman, let alone several, when in need of something so important (and let’s not forget, most likely embarrassing).

However, the pharmacist is well within her rights to run her pharmacy in a manner in keeping with her own religious beliefs. If that means not dispensing the morning-after pill or indeed any other product then so be it.

Vote with your feet. Don’t admonish someone you most likely know nothing about. Take your business elsewhere, there are numerous other pharmacies available in the island.

The p.c. brigade love to jump on the bandwagon in instances like this and say she should be serving everyone every product available in every other pharmacy. However, were it a different day that same p.c. brigade would be jumping up and down screaming that the pharmacist’s religious beliefs weren’t being respected. I’m assuming this pharmacist is a Christian (perhaps not)but were she of any other faith would the same p.c. brigade have the same stance? Perhaps, perhaps not.

Live and let live’s what I say (excuse the unintentional pun in this instance!). If you don’t agree with this pharmacist’s beliefs go elsewhere in future. If you applaud her, take your business to her.

I for one will not be going to this pharmacy purely because it’s not convenient, as I’m sure is the case for 99% of those joining in the verbal witch-hunt here.

As for all the STD references above, they have no relevance to this forum. The issue at hand is the pharmacist refusing to serve these women/girls. Yes, we have major problems in this area in Jersey and abstinence is the ideal solution. But hey, abstinence is the key to every problem in the whole world. No sex, no kids, no kids-no adults, no adults-no credit crisis. Oh my God I just realised this pharmacist has the key to all the world’s economic problems!!! The prophet’s second coming. Alas, I digress… My point is simple, we have problems, we have solutions. Take the one that suits you best but respect others for taking a different path.

One note to the pharmacist, put a simple sign on your door saying you won’t dispense the morning after pill, thus saving anyone embarrassment.

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116

Leah Homes

Drop the irrational religion-hatred for a minute people because this is not about religion, there are others that will not give out or take the ECP on moral grounds. What is you stance then? There is a huge issue at stake here, and it is that of our human rights. Not just the pharmacist’s but YOURS and mine are being threatened by this farce. Never mind that rights and privileges are getting thoroughly mixed up on here.

Our basic human rights are surely to health, freedom of speech, and to not be harmed by others OR be forced to do harm to others (a right I suspect this pharmacist may have been exercising). If people are kind, caring or ask our opinion then that is a privilege!

Rights are things we could have had even before Science had progressed this far, anything else is a privilege. Nature alone would have us consider our sexual behaviour far more seriously and accept the consequences of such bevhiour.

The ECP is not treatment for an illness, it may sometimes abort an embryo, and therefore it is most definitely a privilege (but not for the embryo!). It could only ever be considered a right in the case of sexual assault or the failure of properly used primary methods of contraception. And of course when used by non-inebriated people with common sense then the primary methods of contraception are unbelievably reliable, geunine failures are rare. Nor is the ECP the usual preventative contraceptive, those that say it is simply don’t know how it works.

The complainant has exercised all sorts of rights AND privileges here (going to the media and remaining anonymous!) yet the pharmacist hasn’t even had her basic human rights, not even that of anonymity. The evidence clearly shows who the victim is here and the fact that the woman even went to the press and was allowed anonymity while naming an innocent party is a shocking reflection on our media-obsessed society. It’s particularly tacky given that she could be pursuing the proper methods of complaint if she was really so hurt.

Hopefully this farce will make the pharmacy decide to shut on a Sunday, that might make people take human rights (other than just their own) more seriously. In fact, I hope that the ECP will now only be available from A&E since it’s 24-hour and has more staff available. Then the people that have genuinely got into trouble can still get it but those that just want society to fix their own stupidity will need to take more responsibility for themselves. It’s about time.

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118

Leah Homes

Informed… “However, she should ensure that patient care is not compromised by referring the patient to an alternative pharmacy or pharmacist.”

Unless you are privvy to info outwith the article then we don’t know that she didn’t.

And to the other person unwanted pregnancies and STDs very often go hand in hand so are often related.

And sorry folks, but why should anyone be embarrassed asking for the ECP? If you’re embarrassed it’s worth considering that it may be your own behaviour that is making you feel that way. It’s like kids being ‘mature’ enough to have sex but not mature enough to buy condoms, it’s a joke. I don’t get embarrassed about anything like that cause I know in myself I’m doing nothing wrong.

Also, science cannot be sure that it does not allow some embryos to implant and then abort them, the verdit is still out on that one. In most cases it prevents implantation so that’s okay, but there is evidence that in some cases it aborts. If it did act the same way as the many other contraceptives readily available then there would simply be no controversy over it and no pharmacist would have an issue giving it out unless they also refused to give out the OCP or condoms. Which I presume she didn’t?

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120

R B Bougourd

#112 J-Cat
You beat me to it!
The times of the posts concerned make me think that it’s lunch hour in the computer room at grainville(sic). Good for them.

On the other hand it could all originate in the
philosophy class. In which case I’m impressed.

The only philosophy we were taught at Hautlieu (spelled with a big haitch) was by the late John Gale with his immortal “oneself is never wrong”.

The month before pill was not available in those days, let alone a morning after pill. The night itself, however, was much the same. The weeks after could be torment.

Neither was there such a thing as an internet
forum. Writing letters to the E.P. led to a pep talk from our esteemed headmaster.

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122

Moi

oh and 88 Kipper…you may note my inclusion of the word “interpretation” in my comment on 84.

90 Adrian…that is highly debateable as comment 109 verifies.

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124

Lorna Hamilton

Moi 122, scientists believe there have been cases where the egg has managed to implant and has then been aborted. this really isn’t up for debate, if it was there wouldn’t be any issue with the ECP and everything would be as it is for the OCP and condoms etc. It may be in most cases it simply prevents implantation but there are cases where it does seem to have aborted an embryo. Until such times as people can be sure that this will not happen in the future then those that put a great value on any human life are right to tread very carefully and have scientists on their side also.

Of course, many people would never believe a newly implanted egg to be ‘human’ but then there are still people who think abortion should be permitted right up until natural birth!

I would prefer to err on the side of caution since some women would feel extremely bad abut their decision were it ever to be made very public that the ECP can abort a living embryo (obviously not its intended use). Some people can only live with themselves using it because they wrongly believe it only ever prevents implantation.

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126

P Lee

If people need and want the morning after pill they should be able to access them day or night.

If people do not believe in taking it – they do not have to take it. Many of us do not like the influence the various nasty cults have over people – the pope telling people with HIV/Aids not to use condoms comes to mind.

The woman who refused to hand out the pills needs to be sacked and take a job where her prejudices do not affect the lives of others

There are enough feral children roaming the streets of St Helier without adding to our problems by forcing people to produce more

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128

Leah Homes

P Lee see comment 42, that one just can’t be blamed on religion no matter how much easier it makes it for the rest of us.

Tobias, I do agree with you on many points, especially about not wanting the kids around either, it’s a catch-22, I don’t want horrible kids around any more than anyone else but equally I have issue with the ECP till it is proved to never abort.

I do have serious concerns that any form of self-respect or even abstinence has been completely removed from sex-ed, yet kids are being bombarded with things like Hollyoaks. It currently has two ‘men’ and a ‘women’ having a 3-way relationship that having found each other out they are considering whether they should continue with it, it was working so well after all!

Our sex-ed is failing on so many levels. If we claim to give them a complete education then we need to make it complete and let them weigh up the pros and cons properly themselves, after all they’re the ones that will have to live with it. That includes consequences and dealing with the emotional side, physical risks of abortion, and even the fact that temporary abstinence doesn’t make you weird etc. Also the fact that an abortion might seem okay at 16 but many women regret it greatly when they are older and fully understand the choice they made, especially if they do end up infertile. We have decades to have good sex, we only get one first-time, and sometimes it’s bad enough to put people off for life.

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130

Adrian

I believe that this can act as an early abortion.

The issue is whether taking of life for whatever reason is justified. Everyone talks about THEIR human rights but what about others who are affected by their decisions, do they have no input or effect on this?

As I have said before it is a very tricky situation and I don’t blame the lady for being concerned about this as it goes against her own code of ethics to give someone something that could basically abort a living embryo. This is different from other types of contraception as it is retro-spective i.e. it corrects a mistake.

Lula what happens if these people are drunken slappers and they keep using it as a means of sorting out their problems? Is this right?

Also what about women pressured into this because of circumstances, what happens in later life if they think they have made a mistake in terminating? You can’t exactly rewind and put it right can you?

I am also afraid that people seem to be using the religious card as a way to justify something that they know isn’t ethical.

Why is the sanctity of human life even up for discussion? A life is a life regardless of whether an embryo or an elderly person. Why is it that the two extremes of life are seen to be the least valuable or cherished? Either life is protected or it isn’t. How can you have half measures on something as important as life itself?

Yes women have a choice in what they do, but they can also take away another’s chance of life because they want to.

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132

Darren

FAO Leah Holmes. You’re over analysing this whole subject. This is not about sexually irresponsible individuals, or society in general. This is about a woman’s right to a drug that a pharmacist denied, due to her own personal beliefs. This is unprofessional and makes her position untenable

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134

Leah Homes

And is no-one in the least bit concerned that someone could go to a newspaper and pretty much name them (for doing nothing wrong) while requesting anonymity themselves?

How hypocritical! The complainant should be ashamed of herself or go on the record and name herself.

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136

roger rogers

Just hope that “the church” isn’t 100% successful in its recruitment campaigns otherwise we might find that there are no contraceptives available anywhere!

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138

Moi

132 Leah….tolerance?

Where was the pharmacists tolerance? She had none and refused because of her “own” selfish beliefs which could have had a disastrous effect on the womans future (and others she had refused). What I’d like to know is if “scores of women” had been refused in the past then why didn’t the pharmacy make arrangements to ensure it wasn’t repeated??

“Open-minded society my ****. Jersey shows itself to be more and more bigoted by the minute!”

I think you’ll find that maybe the tolerance and open-mindedness of Jersey residents (and British people as a whole) is wearing very thin considering the liberties being taken every day of our lives by certain minorities!

There has to be give and take from all parties to be able to get on and understand one another, however there seems to be a lot more intolerance to our way of life being displayed by the same people who have been welcomed into our society and accepted our generosity.

Some can’t even be bothered to speak the language!

I for one am fed-up of society pandering to minorities at the expense of the welfare of the majority.

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140

Outsider

Given that 21 of the comments in this string are from one person – that’s 15%, or approx 1 in 7 of all comments so far – am I the only person who feels this subject no longer should be quoted in the ‘most commented on’ list?

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142

Lula

Reids don’t sell the morning after pill or at least they didn’t the last time I checked – and I’ve never heard of cleveland so I’m unsure as to whether they sell it.

Leah the pill has been available for at least 5 years now as I had to take it when my fiancee and I first got together and used a dodgy condom. As for the drunken slappers, it’s their decision if they want to mutilate their bodies and if they didn’t have the morning after pill they’d just be getting abortions which are much worse and much more expensive! This woman should be villified – she has made people feel terrible about themselves – and refused to serve them or tell them where they can get the pill!

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144

JLR

they should give out the pill, is it against there relgion to do there job?! i doubt it..

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146

Lula

the child is alive when it can support itself – i.e. childbirth!

if it’s not breathing by itself then it’s just sucking up the mother’s resources and it’s up to the mother whether or not she wants to end the potential life inside her.

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148

Lula

Her ethics – Her views

is she the queen? No! does she represent the government? No! Until the majority vote for us all to be repressed by a back dated and old fasioned belief then I believe each individual has the right to make what you think is the wrong choice!

Adrian – my goldfish was alive… and it ended up dying because i shook the bag – bear in mind I was 5 but does this make me a murderer? You are confusing cells with a baby then again you probably don’t believe we are made of cells do you? We’re all made from adam and eve right?

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150

Moi

Lula…you go girl

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152

Leah Homes

#136, that’s only Catholicism, which doesn’t make up a large proportion of available churches!

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154

Adrian

What do you define as life or alive?

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156

Lula

I define life as something that breathes by itself… and yes I believe that people that have had strokes and are in a coma aren’t classed as alive – hense the machines are called life support…? When the doctors turn off the machines as per the relatives wishes are they committing murder?

I remember the pill being discussed in 1994 – If she felt strongly about it she should have left her job or worked in a pharmacy where they don’t sell the pill – out of interest I wonder if she doesn’t sell condoms as well?
In any event the pharmacist should advise these women where they can get the pill or when they can come back and get it from someone else working at Roseville… she failed to do this and so I believe that act warrants a forum of this size – and I believe that she has brought this unwanted attention to herself.

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158

Leah Homes

Lula, I’m not sure why you think you speak for the majority, I don’t know anyone that agrees with your definition of when life begins, that includes scientists.

“the child is alive when it can support itself” Living, breathing babies would die without support, as would people who were incapacitated through illness, as would many people with learning disabilities, as would many elderly people. I guess they don’t matter.

Life support is another thing entirely as I’m sure you well know.

PJG, it is depressing that people have that opinion. No wonder men struggle so much nowadays. The woman (in most cases) made her choice and put herself in the position of getting pregnant. Abortion and the ECP cost the NHS money, a lot of money. We are ALL suffering because of other people’s inability to control themselves. We need to start charging full cost for self-induced issues.

The health service won’t be able to afford to support our promiscuity, drunkenness, drug use, for long, it’s already struggling desperately. There will come a time when tough decisions have to be made about what services are free and we will all be forced to change our ways. There’s an interesting programme coming on soon that will hopefully touch on that issue. If you want things to go that way then keep being totally irresponsible.

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160

blahblah

Leah, I admire your passion, but I think your argument is full of value-laden assumptions. Firstly, you assume that all women that use the morning after pill are drunken and irresponsible. You bemoan Feminism, but your own view of men isn’t very high because you suggest that the men have no mind of their own. Are you suggesting that they don’t have a choice about using a condom?

Also, I don’t agree with your promiscuity argument, which is practically Victorian. Abortion first appeared in English law during 13th century. This was based on Church teachings that allowed abortion up until the time the soul entered the foetus. Nothing was done about it until the early 19th century, when several laws were enacted to limit access to abortion. I’m not arguing pro-life or pro-choice. All I’m saying is that people throughout history have always had unwanted pregnancies, (between 1922-1933, 15% of maternal deaths were due to illegal abortions). So, how do we know that people are more promiscuous now then they ever have been? It could be argued that the “rise in abortions” may just reflect the fact that the government could not record illegal abortions before 1967.

You say that we shouldn’t judge the pharmacist, but equally, we shouldn’t judge the individual for wanting the pill because we don’t know her circumstances.

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162

L u l a

Thank you Moi and yes if you’re not breathing and you have no heartbeat you are classed as not being alive by science… Leah the NHS has nothing to do with Jersey and in Jersey you have to pay for abortions and the morning after pill unless you’re under 16.

Leah, I agree with you on almost every subject, however, in this case many people believe that the pharmasist should be asked to change jobs as she is putting people at risk i mean look at everybody other than you and Adrian’s posts on here. Adrian I’m sorry to disagree with you as I see you feel strongly about this matter but have you ever thought of what it’s like being pregnant? Of course not – you have no idea how it feels to carry an unwanted child it feels like your body has been invaded and it does seem like a parasite! There are loads of unwanted children in this world and the reason for that is people like you telling scared women that they’ll be judged if they abort the unwanted child. I’m sorry but the amount of unwatned children in care that grow up to be problems of society because they weren’t loved or wanted is astronomical and if people were more forgiving of the morning after pill and abortions then this problem would be a lot smaller. Yes accidents happen, yes more and more people are having unprotected sex but the punishment shouldn’t be childbirth – if it is then you’re not only punishing the mother but the child as well… and Leah – most men would suggest the morning after pill as you may not even be pregnant if you take it – its just an extra precaution I mean you do know that you only have 4 days a month where you can actually get pregnant!

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164

Adrian

Lula I was only trying to make people think on this very important issue. Everyone bangs on about human rights for themselves but when the chips are down they don’t really want them for others.

Why do something that gets you into this position in the first place? A bit of thought can save a lot of problems in most cases. Human life should be sacred shouldn’t it?

Remember it is better not to have an unwanted child then you don’t need to get rid of it do you? Why are all these people having abortions etc? They seem very high to me.

Men should be more involved with all this not as a spectator as seems to be the case most of the time.

Moi can you say that there is any difference between a baby at 24 weeks of age and one a day younger? One is legal to abort one isn’t?

I was trying to say that human life begins with fertilisation of an egg. It is alive from that stage forward. Is it right to treat it as anything but human?

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166

blahblah

Leah with all due respect I have read your posts and I beg to differ. In many of your posts you imply that – in the majority of cases – women that get pregnant haven’t used contraception responsibly; that rising levels of abortion are due to our irresponsible society, and that the morning-after pill is being used to mop up people’s mess. You also say that medicine is used to fix our laziness, drunkenness and idiocy, and ask why people can’t control themselves or plan ahead. Furthermore, in another post you argue that it is the woman’s choice – in most cases – to place themselves in the position of getting pregnant, (the implication being that the women’s partner is not capable of being accountable for their actions). Reading between the lines, it would suggest to me that your opinion of people who have had to use the morning after pill is not a particularly positive one. All I’m saying is that you can’t ask people not to judge the pharmacist, and then in a round about way make assumptions about the customer, by referring to the apparent majority of morning after pill users.

I agree that it shouldn’t come down to money, but if we have to get down to the cold hearted economic bottom line: what’s more expensive for the State a child in care, a parent who is now going to need state subsidies to provide for their child or the morning after pill? I’m not arguing for pro-life or choice. Saying that, I do get the impression that some people can justify a lot of things when they back it up with “its my religion”. Does a religious person’s view outweigh that of an atheist or vice versa? I just think it’s a very complicated multi-faceted issue that has to take into account everyone’s perspective equally with no room for judgments on individuals.

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168

Adrian

lula you misunderstand what I am trying to say. People bang on about human rights all the time. Well what is the definition of a life? People can’t even agree on that. So how can people define human rights if they can’t even define a human being?

You realise that an fetilised egg left to its own devices will either grow into what you classify as a human being, or as you say, if there is something wrong with it it may well abort naturally. The word here is naturally.

This is a natural process and this is how nature works. Everything is part of nature, nothing is separate even though some people think they are above nature, when in reality they are not. As you well know women are fertile for around 4 days a month so they should know the best time to have sex to greatly increase their chances of pregnancy.

Also if both take precautions this should further reduce the risk of pregnancy. Or do people take no precautions and hope for the best?

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