Tough times for OAPs
Monday 30th March 2009, 2:00PM BST.
PENSIONERS are facing a grim summer struggling to pay bills and unable to go on holiday because they cannot get travel insurance.
Age Concern has warned that hundreds of elderly Islanders are having difficulty paying bills because plummeting interest rates have slashed their income.
Chairman Daphne Minihane (pictured) says that pensioners who rely on interest on their life savings are in financial turmoil following a dramatic drop in returns on almost all bank accounts.
And to make matters worse, many are finding it impossible to get travel insurance to cover health costs if they fall ill or have an accident while visiting the UK.
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Nevermind it won’t affect the rich so that’s alright isn’t it?
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If they have enough life savings to live off the interest when getting 5% or so a year ago then I think having to dig in to such savings to settle a few bills deserves the world’s smallest violin.
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Marie Antoinette said “Let them eat cake” when times were tough for the peasants. I dread to think what advice our Health Minister would give the elderly in the face of dwindling funds to live on!
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@Al
Have a heart
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I’ve got to agree with Al(2) if this story is looking for sympathy its written all wrong. Not being able to go on holiday, if only that was the worst the people of this world faced..
As for Adrian they clearly are rich to have savings in the first place and only have lack of holidays to worry about! Stay here for the summer and keep some cash in the economy.
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Oh well! us beans have been charging punitively high rents to the unqualified sector for years, perhaps it’s time we spent some of our ill gotten gains… what goes around comes around.
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A lot of pensioners were not living off interest but finding their interest a useful supplement to their pension.
The fact that this interest is now only a fraction of what it was and inflation may start to erode the value of their capital may mean that we will have to give them more money in years to come.
Also if you are in a company pension scheme at the moment and are looking to retire in the next five to ten years or so you may find yourself short of money in years to come and there is the looming deficit in the States employees scheme.
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Well said Al (2) Daphne Minihane is permanently protesting that OAP’s have to pay too much for such things as rent and electricity. Hey Daphne, old or not, we’re all in the same boat here in Overpriced Jersey!
I note with interest that they can still afford to go on holiday, plenty of people cannot afford that at the moment!
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Funny how they were looking through the bargain bins at Grandfare in the 1980,s buying up all the bent tins and meat pieces whilst still in there early 30,s grasping at every out of date oportunity that came along.Everyone was counting on sitting back pretty in there old age after being tight fisted all there lives.However you still see them running into pound world hardly able to walk still trying to get a free toilet roll.Ironic then that all these tight fisted people who were living the life of Fagan in there youth are still living like a Dickensian character in the 2000s.
Greed is the problem,if you get to be as old as this lot you can count yourself lucky,however its far wiser to embrace this day as it may be the only one you have got.
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We’ve worked and contributed to “The System” all our lives, but as the States have said the threat of the elderly has to be addressed in other words we are not important as we do no longer contribute to the system !!!
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I bet all the pensioners just love all the nice people in the banking world who have been playing fast and loose with their (the pensioners’) assets over the last few years.
Maybe just maybe the hype about what a wonderful job the finance industry does will not go down very well with the pensioners.
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Al comment 2 I’m inclined to agree with you, anyone wealthy enough to be living off savings isn’t doing too badly.
It’s those pensioners struggling to keep warm with a 24% increase in the cost of electricity that I feel sorry for – I bet they don’t know what a holiday is.
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What about those without savings?Aren’t most people having trouble getting insurance to get to the UK?I’m sorry but a holiday is a luxury and I’m sure there are a lot of people unable tio afford one – We haven’t had one for 10 years -aren’t the elderly the ones that tell us that us “youngsters” should learn to cut our cloth accordingly?
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I do feel that people living off interest are the victims of other people’s greed and was almost, almost sympathetic for once to the views of this lady. But lo and behold, it’s all about bringing in GST exemptions isn’t it, which would be ill advised to say the least.
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Daphne Minihane appears to represent comfortably off pensioners who due to the finacial climate, are suffering a loss of interest on their savings.
Were these same people complaining when high rates of inflation in the 70′s and 80′s vastly increased the value of their houses, effectively reducing their mortgage commitments as their earnigs rose with inflation? And how many of these pensioners have pensions from final salary schemes, which though no longer available, are being funded by the current workforce?
If the people who she represents have some cash in the bank, may I suggest that they look to buy an annuity. This will provide a return for life, at the expense of reducing the inheritance that they leave for their family.
I don’t wish to appear vindictave, my own parents are pensioners, but times are hard for many in the workplace. Many long term employees of RBS/Nat West have lost vast amounts on their savings which were in RBS shares. The endowment which covers part of my mortgage is showing a shortfall. I myself am in the now accepted defined contribution pension scheme, and my pension fund from a previous employer has dropped 30% in the past year.
I am unsure as to what Mrs Minihane wishes the States to do, but if additional assitance is to be given to pensioners in the way she implies, one option for the States would be to introduce Inheritance Tax! To further increase the burden on the working population, who will face far greater problems of their own when they themselves retire is unacceptable.
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Whenever some duffer pipes up with the “money for pensioners” line, I have to laugh.
I’m in my 30s, healthy, witty, very good looking, a babe magnet in fact (but that’s for another website) yet utterly depressed because I know when I’m old there will be no pension for me because this bunch of oldies have spent it all on mugs of tea, the Daily Mail and holidays.
My wife and I work full time. Always have done. Many pensioners didn’t even work. And now they can’t even claim to be war heroes.
Some people call it “Helping the Aged”. I prefer to call it “People that have had it good for years stealing the last crumbs off their grandkids”.
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all of you giving mrs.miniham a bad coverage should think again.i for have not got any savings and rely on the basic pension and scimp and save to go to uk twice a year if i can.unlike the generation of today we worked long hours 6 days a week had 2 weeks allocated holidays a year and nobody ever went away on hols as no-one could afford to till about the seventies,we were the very people what made jersey what it is today and paid our way through blood and sweat.there was no college or higher education for us,we left school at fifteen and started work the next day .who do you think creater the superstructure that exist today?harbour walls and drains,roads etc and that was just the men us women worked just as hard,unlike the generation of today who wan,t everything on a plate.we never had childrens allowance or or any other benifits,so if i wan,t to go away for a week or two i reckon i,ve earned it.
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mad foetus you should blame those in charge for this state of affairs I have been on about this for years but no one listened. The demographic time bomb is set to go off soon I’m affraid and I think you unfortuantely will be on the wrong side of it.
Every genaration should pay for themsleves but some idiot in the past thought it a good idea that the following generation paid for the previous one. Fine and dandy when there are more people working than retired but not so good when the working population ends up less than those retired.
This is down to previous governments who lied to people like me as far as I am concerned when I first brought this issue up years ago. I believe those in charge brought this system in as they would gain from it knowing full well they would be dead before the porverbial hit the fan. It is the same old capitalistic greed factor I’m afraid. Look after oneself and stuff the rest. Well unfortunately the chickens are coming home to roast any year now.
Sorry mad foetus you may need up working till you drop but as you appear to think those in government are good then this is a small price to pay isn’t it for supporting these sort of people through the years?
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I agree that the cost of heating with electric is terrible, but we are coming out of winter now and by the end of the summer interest rates may be up again. I also agree with the comment about digging into some savings, even if its 5% for the duration of the recession then there should be no difference to them. Holiday? If they find the interest rates a problem, have they checked out the exchange rates lately? I thought the elderly were being given softeners from GST as it is? I know at least one person that been given a couple of hundred quid to date and they don’t pay tax.
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sorry but why should people that have saved and been careful all of their lives get nothing whereas those that sponged off the states get a house and pension money – even though they weren’t careful?
penalising the wrong pensioners here
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my partner’s grandparents scrimped and saved all of their lives and now they live on £30 a week – they even save their water and recycle everything and only have lights on in one room… they are extremely careful yet they have to live on the interest on their savings and get less than other pensioners because they own their own house. What if something breaks like the plumming or the oil tank – where are they going to get the money to fix those little issues?
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I’m not sure if what type of standard of living she expects pensioners to have.
Falling interest rates will not affect the poor because they have no savings.
Many people cannot have a holiday.
I recall recently that she was complaining that pensioners could only afford to heat/were having to live in one room because of high fuel costs. The UK govenment and age concern actually advised pensioners to heat/live in one room during cold spells!
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As your partners grandparents own their own house, they have the option of selling and moving into something smaller and so free-ing up capital. A lot of people rent and don’t have this option.
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So I take it most on here won’t be going on holiday when they retire? They will just sit in their houses waiting to die? If these people have saved all their lives why can’t they have a holiday? Maybe it would be better if everyone just did nothing and let the state house and look after them? Where would we all be then?
I also take it that most are happy with the super rich paying very little tax in real terms? I know of someone who died of hypothermia the other winter as they couldn’t afford to heat their house properly. Mark my words more of this will happen now we have GST, which we wouldn’t need if the rich and big business paid what they should. Does anyone really think this is what Jersey should be like in the 21st century?
As I have said before no wonder things are going down hill if this is what people think on things. Wait until you are old and get treated like rubbish.
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Lula 21. Can they not downsize or find a way of freeing up the equity in the property they own? Maybe a different approach or thought process might be of benefit.
Yes its very sad that those OAPs who did work hard and bought their own homes are suffering but there are ways around this as I mention.
Those OAPS who are living off interest on savings plans and cannot afford previous luxuries have zero symapthy from me.
Try being a young adult who is trying to get on the property ladder in the world today.
You had your time and you have left a mess for the young to sort out. Stop whining and dip into your rainy day fund and count yourself lucky that you have it.
Might I suggest that Mrs Minihane make the distinction between the genuinely hard up and those who are feeling put out a bit clearer. This way she may garner some public support instead of a deaf ear.
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Lula but they own there own house !!!
Average Jersey house is c half a million pounds now and you expect anyone to feel sorry for them ? If they can’t afford to continue to maintain the family house then they need to downsize and use some of the hundreds of thousands thereby released to have a comfortable life in retirement. Most people do that at some stage it isn’t the end of the world.
Many people in Jersey will lose jobs and some also homes in this recession. Many will have young families. I am sorry but my sympathy is for such people and families rather OAPs unhappy about interest rates on substantial savings.
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Maybe pensioners should live in homes within their means like the rest of us.
Housing at now putting pensioners in 2 bedroom flats when they only need one.
You don’t see young families on here saying they are strugging with interest rates being cut or moaning in the newspaper, no they get on with it
Penshioners have been spoilt in the past decade of the golden age of them shouting and the governments jumps. Now maybe they can understand how everyone else is living. I have no sympathy im afraid just because they can’t go on holiday!
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Al no one should be forced to sell their property especially in old age as this can be too much for them. Old people don’t take to being moved very well, often the result of a move is death within a year or so.
As to down sizing have you tried this over here? A half million pounds as some people put it won’t get you much more than a first time buyers house. If people have made an effort to be self sufficient they should not be penalised. Just think if all these people hadn’t bought and just relied on the state everyone would be paying for them now. By reading the comments on here it is obvious no one wants to pay anything for anyone else. Maybe this is why things are going down hill? Greed and envy aren’t got bed fellows.
Al as to people with families losing their houses yes you are right this will happen and has always happened but it is getting worse as we become more obsessed with possessions. Also these elderly people will have paid their taxes in the past and contributed to society as well. Just because there is not much money to be made from them now it doesn’t mean people should forget them.
I would have to lay the blame fairly and squarely at this greedy capitalistic system which breeds the wrong ideals namely service to self. Carry on down this route and we will all be in big trouble soon.
The more a society becomes a “service to self society” the more problems it stores up for itself which will eventually vent in anger and fury, with the resultant breakdown in law and order. Do you want troops on the streets? If not it would be advisable for people to think of others a bit more, if not they will bring the inevitable down on their own heads!
Also remember today’s young are tomorrow’s elderly. Today’s young will then have their turn at being maligned by their juniors. The way things are going I only expect things to get worse and worse. I do hope I am wrong but judging by the way some young people treat others I suspect not.
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And Adrian more elderly people i have spoken to don’t care about what happens to the people who are paying for their pension as long as they get it, than actually care.
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Adrian,
Downsizing is a realistic option. Your statements are massive and lack any credibility. Please show me data on ‘often the result of a move is death within a year or so’
Older people do not have the god given right to immunity from the hardship that the man on the street is suffering right now.
Your socialist mentality is seriously flawed.
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Yes they own there own 1 bedroom house – how much more downsize can you get?
Pardon them for buying a house i mean it’s not like they had to scrimp and save for it or anything! They already sold the family home as their savings only covered them from 60-80 (as they didn’t expect to live as long as they have) then they got taxed on the sale of the house! I mean how unfair is the system to those who have worked hard all their lives and saved and tried to provide the best for their children.
People that live in housing – when they eventually retire (if they ever worked) they get a states pension and a states flat… and all repairs are paid for!
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Adrian heh another mini-essay …… you and Leah are a pair : )
Any person in Jersey retired or otherwise with their own house owned mortgage free and savings is much better off than the vast majority of people in Jersey and most would gladly swap places. If an OAP chooses not to put those substantial assets to use giving themselves an easier retirement that is of course their prerogative but not a cause for any of us to feel they are hard done to. I am paying for their state pension from my wages each month as well as trying to keep my job in this recession and a roof over my head at v considerable cost. One day I may even be able to find my own place to buy but it is pretty likely that by the time I retire there will be no state pension.
So the banks are not paying as much interest on savings at the moment – cry me a river !
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I cannot believe that so many people are so disrespectful to our aged population. Most of them never had the opportunities we have – they didn’t have the benefits, either educational or financial we do. Their pride didn’t allow them to sponge, a lot just struggled, did not complain and just got on with it. The ones who had a little to spare and had the foresight to put some away (which incidentally was taxed) in order not to be a burden on anyone are now being penalised. Reading the previous comments I am disgusted at the arrogance,attitude and lack of compassion. You are directing your anger at the wrong people and quite frankly, targeting your anger towards pensioners is cowardly. Easy pickings! Pensioners cannot fight back. Look at the people who profited with huge bonuses and direct your anger there. Shame on you!!!!
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All very well downsizing to a flat but in flats the monthly service charges soon mount up. When you end up on Income Support it’s not enough to cover it, so you’ll end up deep in debt or homeless and cap in hand to the Housing Dept.
Heaven Forbid you need nursing care, you’ll have to sell your home to pay for it – unlike in Guernsey! We suck at caring about the elderly.
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Maybe when you get old then you might have a bit more understanding of what the elderly go through.
People need to realise that vulnerable groups should be looked out for not shot down in flames because they have something others haven’t got.
As I have said before greed begets greed begets problems. There are too many people who are too self centred. One day everyone will need someone else’s help. However as everyone has been too selfish they won’t get it. Unfortuantely no one seems to really get it now this is why things are going down hill or as my grandad used to say Britain is going to the dogs.
Al you need to blame the government and the rich for this state of affairs as both have let the rest down by their inability to act for the whole as far as I am concerned.
I also take it you won’t be expecting the next generation to look after you when you get old?
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Karen,
They may not have had the opportunities that we have, but equally, they didn’t work full time, like my wife and I both do. They didn’t work 70-80 hours a week to climb the greasy ladder.
I would happily have had a life where a man with an average job could buy a nice house on his own salary, leave his wife at home to look after the kids, have a couple of pints at 5 on the dot.
They lived through golden times. They truly were the luckiest generation. They should be paying us, not the other way around.
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those who think they are paying for our pensions are misinformed, at least i did pay for my own pension over and over again with working for almost 50 years,the social security was paid by me and my employer.what makes you think you are paying my pension?try picking on some others that have never paid 1 single penny in the pot and gets every benifit going,and have never done a hard days work and don,t ever intend to,why should they when they get everything for nothing. your right karen we did,nt get the education you all now enjoy,as at that time our classrooms were vastly overcrowded and most of us only went to primary school,even the teachers could,nt remember our names so most of us were called “you there” funny but true.
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I know many old people that are grasping “greedy” old baskets.Unfortunatly some are family members im afraid to say and although they literaly have hundreds of thousands in the bank they were to “tight” fisted to pay for a taxi to get them home in the winter which resulted in one of them contracting pneumonia,”yes” some of these people are loaded but wont put the heating on and use a t-bag multiple times for only one reason and thats because there tight!
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There is so much bitterness in some of the above comments.I fully agree with Karen (no 33)and Adrian has talked a lot of sense too.Whilst there may be some pensioners in Jersey who are very wealthy or comfortably off there are many who have worked extremely hard and gone through very hard times (benefits and handouts not having been thought of when many of them were bringing up a family)I have far more sympathy and respect for an elderly person who has contributed to society by working and paying their taxes than for younger people having children they cannot afford and who then expect everyone else to chip in or feel sorry for them.
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Al – Let’s get it straight. The elderly have paid for their own pension with all their contributions paid in their working life. You are paying towards your own pension
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I am extremelely saddened by the sheer nastiness and selfishness of far too many of the above posts. If some of these arrogant people are the product of Jersey’s affluence then the sooner it evaporates the better.
No wonder the island’s children are becoming so obnoxious and, dare I say it, unable express themselves as befits the level of education which Jersey allegedly provides.
For goodness sake all you smug young “property ladder” obsessed products of the I want it now age – how do you think the pensioners managed to get their savings.
Yes, some might well have been greedy landlords but they are probably not the ones who are in trouble. Ironically they are probably just the sort of people you lot aspired to become while the good times rolled.
No, most savers saved by doing without the luxuries which today’s go-getters take for granted. These people are now too old to go to work. They don’t have the incomes that you have.
If they worked in England and came back to settle in the island that they love they may not even be enjoying the slightly better Jersey pension.
As it now turns out they were well and truly shafted by the people who they entrusted their savings to. As there are rather a lot of them around you may find that a larger proportion of Jersey’s population will not be worshipping the finance industy in future.
Now to some individual replies.
Warren J #15 Buy an annuity! Who the hell would you buy one from whom you could trust to have not pushed off in their yacht with your money before they have even started paying you back?
Also unless you pick exactly the right one you will be ripped off during the conversion process.
#16 Mad Foetus, your conceited description of yourself says a great deal about how little you care about this issue. Just go away and live it up while the going is good – it won’t be for much longer, better start putting a bit by for your old age and hope that by then the interest rates have perked up.
#32 Al. Adrian and Leah are two of the most dedicated and concerned posters on all these threads and I have considerable respect for both of them.(see Leah’s comments about earning respect on another page). If there is no state pension by the time you retire now is the time to elect politicians who want it to stay and will bring in fair taxation and guard against the sort of criminalnegligence that has led to the current disaster.
#33 Karen. What a refreshing and compassionate post. You have said it all.
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RB Bougourd
Here’s the crux. Today’s pensioners get far more than tomorrow’s will.
And yet you call the people who will get next to nothing tomorrow greedy for refusing to give what little they will receive to those who have much more than them today.
Get real: we’re all looking skint, there’s no money in the pot for anyone anymore. We’ve all lived beyond our means and got used to a standard of living that is not sustainable.
It has nothing to do with greed or compassion, just basic economic facts. Nobody calls a squirrel greedy just because it prepares for winter. It’s called prudent, a value that used to be highly regarded before the mentalist Brown interpreted it in his own way.
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LoL I hope you are right dave b ! I had assumed that it is just one massive PONZI scheme like national insurance is in the UK. As I understand it pension contributions in the UK are not safely invested to be released at your retirement and nor were those of any current UK pensioners. Instead from inception the deal was that payments by the current workforce would immediately finance pensions for the then current OAPs. The implicit deal or complete con depending on how you look at it being that future generations would continue this arrangement. But in a similar vein to the comments of Mad Foetus above this is another way that the baby boomers have dumped, perhaps inadvertently, on their children and grandchildren. The individual cost to the “baby boomers” of making these payments was much less than that that which is and will be required from current workers because of the demographics i.e there were far more workers to pensioners at the time these OAPs contributed than now.
For the avoidance of doubt I fully expect that the only way I or any of my generation will be able to retire (at 70? 75? or even older) with some minimum comfort will be as a result of personal savings put aside and not from a state pension which if it hasn’t imploded by then will certainly be de minimis.
Anyway to go back to the original point. If as an OAP I could comfortably live off my savings when interest rates were say 5% higher a year or so ago then to maintain my standard of living for a year when interest rates are low will reduce my savings by 5%. If the recession lasts two years 10%. Then it seems likely that inflation will have really kicked in and interest rates will rocket. So really is that such a big deal ? I along with most other people who have not retired have already lost c 35% or more of my pensions / non bank savings as they were invested directly or indirectly in the stock markets. Of course if I had already reached retirement and bought an annuity that would be different….
[Apologies for mini-essay].
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mad foetus a bit of advice for you give up climbing the geasy pole then! Why bother? you are going to get nowhere anyway. This capitalistic thing is just a scam as far as I am concerned. Every year the powers that be just turn up the tread mill speed a bit more. When will people realise it is but a fool’s game?
People are too greedy today expecting everything now and they get bitter and twisted if they see others doing better than themselves. It was called keeping up with the Jones’ when I was young. I call it an epidemic now. It is time to grow up and get a life before you end up six foot under.
An old saying comes to mind “you sow what you reap.” All this bitterness is only going to end in tears and more grief. No wonder we have all these problems now in this grasping, self centred, stuff everyone else, society we call the 21st century. The sooner everything comes to an end the better as far as I am concerned.
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Mad Foetus (no 36) You state that pensioners didn’t work 70-80 hours a week to climb the greasy ladder.Firstly how on earth do you know what hours anyone has worked?People do a variety of jobs and have a variety of responsibilites so you cannot possibly know how hard or what hours each person has worked and so it is arrogant to suggest such a thing.Secondly if you are saying that you,in your thirties,are working these long hours(and your wife too if I understood correctly)I would say you are doing something very wrong and that your best bet would be to leave Jersey,where the cost of living is extremely high,and enjoy a less stressful life elsewhere.Life is too short to spend it all working and having no time to enjoy it.
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It is fair to say that Jersey will reap as the island has sown.
If ever the island hits serious problems and the government has to invoke community spirit etc to get us through then I think they will hit a vein of “I’m all right Jack” that will leave them stunned.
Mind you looking at the States it is only the much derided ‘left wing minority’ that seem bothered about the community at all so what do they expect?
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Adrian 18 & 24,
I thought going on holiday was contributing to the capitalist machine and assisted in the destruction of the planet and instead we should all stay here and live off the land?? Isn’t that what you said in one of your other posts?
The reason why the current generation pay for the older generation is because the money the older generation paid in back in the 40′s and 50′s wouldn’t be worth squat today – inflation would have reduced it to nothing. If you want pensioners to be paid a real rate of pension and for them to have the services at what they cost today and not at their final tax liability prior to 1990 then a proportion of that has to be paid by today’s taxpayer i.e. today’s earning generation. Not because someone in the government wanted to scam you.
People have been greedy for thousands of years, way before ‘capitalism’ was even invented. It’s not a recent affliction and the problem the older generation face is not an economic one – it is a cultural one. If you look at other cultures, especially Asian, elders are respected far more and as a result are housed and looked after by the family until the end. Market economies don’t really work for the elderly because when times get hard they cannot simply put in some hard graft to make ends meet. Therefore we either have a socialist state or we change our ways in terms of how the young treat the old in their immediate family.
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As a pensioner myself I feel very disheartened by the vast majority of comments so far.Apart from a few compassionate people there seems to be a an awful lot of resentment towards the elderly.
No one else is paying or has paid for my pension but myself.I contributed all my working life to the Social Security Scheme and I am now receiving back,no more,no less then my entitlement based on those contributions.
I am just about managing to pay my own way,have few luxuries,am not having a holiday and not complaining about it.
Not all pensioners have a nest egg and its those who may need additional help as do some families.There are times in life when we may all need a helping hand and a little bit of understanding.
There is a very true saying along the lines of ” a society is judged by the way in which it treats its elderly,sick and disadvantaged” Have a heart you will old yourselves one of these days.
By the way I use my son’s computer to add my comments just in case you were wondering how I can afford one.
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joker a holiday doesn’t necessarily mean a trip to New Zealand does it? It could a trip to Brittany on the ferry as I do occasionally. So I take it you don’t go only holiday then as you are interested in having a future on this planet?
If you think capitalism is good thats your call. I don’t think things like Enron, and the banks in particular are sustainable or even good business practice but thats capitalism for you, make a “profit” at all cost.
Every genaeration pays for the preceeding one because the first in the queue were given pensions they hadn’t paid for, hence the you pay for me charade. This is down to the government who were responsible for implimenting a scheme doomed to failure. I even said this over 30 years ago, no one listened then prefering to believe pie in the sky rubbish from those in charge.
Because of this flawed decision the next generation is going to lose out, however this is the governments fault for I believe conning everyone into believeing all would be ok in the end. It is not the pensioners fault as they are just claiming what the government said they could have. I am sure even you would do this, or would you say no I’ll leave it?
You are correct people have been greedy self serving individuals for eons however capitalism has allowed the greediest to profit beyond their wildest dreams. This wouldn’t have been possible without capitalism in its present form. Do you think things like Enron would have occured without capitalism?
Old age pensioners are more affected by inflation than other groups as they often live on relatively low incomes not the massive pensions so people seem to think they get. You are also correct the older get treated as second class citizens by the younger generations and it appears to the Anglo-Saxon cultures who seem to have no regard for those who are no longer in the machine earning money.
I believe this can be blamed on the so called Protestant Work Ethic, prevalent in Anglo-Saxon cultures. This basically means workers blindly work for others in the mistaken believe that they are bettering themselves. They aren’t but their bosses do rather well out of it.
Anyone who believes capitalism is a good system is being fed rubbish by those making money from them selling them mostly junk that isn’t really needed. I blame the majority for going along with this consumer driven debt culture. They are going nowhere except to bankruptcy and working till they die. They should have the sense to see beyond this and get out of it, unfortunately they prefer trinkets to independence. Greed gets the majority nowhere as the minority running the place knows.
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Our social security department pay well over £25 million pounds per year to overseas recipients in sickness benefit (majority Portugal and Madeira) I am sure some of these people are worthy recipients. But a lot aren’t filter them out and give the extra monies generated to deserving oaps (means tested).
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I have a lot of sympathy for the workforce in Jersey today. They have no job security and, despite contracts and terms and conditions, generally have to work long hours and put up with extreme stress in the workplace. And what do they have to look forward to, very little chance of a pension and very little chance of owning their own home.
Well this may surprise some people but it was exactly the same for many OAPs including me but without any employment legislation. Long hours, low pay and no chance of ever owning property.
No doubt the children of today’s workers will be saying the same.
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Julie:
“Secondly if you are saying that you,in your thirties,are working these long hours(and your wife too if I understood correctly)I would say you are doing something very wrong and that your best bet would be to leave Jersey,where the cost of living is extremely high,and enjoy a less stressful life elsewhere.Life is too short to spend it all working and having no time to enjoy it.”
I’m doing fine, thank you, I did the hard graft in my 20s and now reap the rewards. But it seems your suggestion is that the people that currently work their guts out to pay most of the Island’s taxes stop doing so, but that we give more money to pensioners.
So, less taxes coming in and more expenditure going out. How exactly does that work?
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Adrian, its called ‘reap as you sow’.
Please back up your earlier statement regarding death following shortly after a move with statistics or retract the statement. Why have you ignored this point?
Means testing for the elderly would be a good place to start with this issue.
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What people don’t understand is in 1967 that thoes married women where told that the husbands Social surcurity covered there wifes and children and if the wife wanted to work she could get a red card and only her empoyer had to pay so even then times where really hard if you had children to bring up and many women went out to work to supplement there income and To live better we didn’t have many places to take our children to be looked after and no help to pay for them, I myself had to go cleaning at night time and if you lived in a state place the rent went up so the more you helped yourself the worse off you were. After a few years the social decided to change and the women could then go back to the full blue card but you had to pay thoes years that you had been with a red card many just did’nt have enough money to do that so didn’t. It still seems the more you work hard the less you seem to get and thought of. and now the supplement system is no good, we have to go cap in hand and beg for any thing we deserve and have worked hard for also all they have do today is work and pay for only six months and get all the benefits that we can’t , them in the states look after themselfs so why should they bother there all right and can offord to live very well on there wage Tax money
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Mad foetus You wouldn’t be one of those in charge of things would you? Sitting back watching others work hard? I presume you don’t work hard now then as you said you did your hard graft in your twenties?
I hope you aren’t one of the exploiters of others now. As I said before don’t blame the elderly the blame lays firmly with the government for messing everything up.
It also appears you are bitter you have to do a bit of work. If you are pro-capitalist you should relish it. This is what the consumer society is all about isn’t it?
If you don’t like it do something about it and get out.
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Adrian,
Your views on capitalism are very polarised – almost like all other political ideologies are perfect?! You think socialist and communist states haven’t had the few make their fortune whilst the many get short changed or die? Yes I do go on holiday and have travelled to a socialist state and trust me – many of the people aren’t better off. Ask anyone who lived in the old Eastern block and see if they want to go back to the ‘good old days’.
Thing about capitalism is we all have choices about what we want to do and how we want to do it and it leaves us with our morals to decide – some abuse (Enron, Madoff etc), some help (Branson, Geldof etc) – the truest reflection of human nature. Just because an advert on tv trys to sell you something you or I don’t need doesn’t mean we have to fall for it – still I have the choice and that’s got to be better than all living like robots where the only advertising is the proper gander billboards of the state. This choice includes how we treat our elders – it is we who fail them by our choices and not ‘capitalism’. And no we don’t all work blindly for our bosses… Under capitalism we can choose to work for ourselves -try that in a communist or (so called) socialist state you’ll likely be executed!
I’m confused how you thought that the state way back when was wrong in developing the pension? Surely that’s spreading the wealth and synonymous with how the NHS was set up – the current tax payer paying for a service mainly used by the elderly and infirm who paid ages ago. Surely the pension was aimed at those who are in the same predicament today???
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I think we should reward the elderly for bringing us to the earth and making us believe it is thousands of years old, when in actual fact its only 100 years old. If it was not for them we would not have emmigrated here from Zillon B in the outer Milky Way, we would have all died on our former planet which was destroyed by a solar flare.
In other words lets not be harsh on the elderly after all, if it was not for them we would not be here.
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Adrian,
I’m not bitter that I have to work. But I am bitter that the shirkers think the workers should pay for their lifestyles.
Virtually everyone earning less than say £50k a year in Jersey is doing so out of choice: if they wanted to retrain and work in the finance industry they could do. But they have chosen job satisfaction ahead of salary and should accept that the quid pro quo is they end up poor and feeling that the world owes them a living.
I don’t blame the elderly, I just make the point their pension is 3 or 4 times more than my pension will be, so I don’t see how it is fair to take from my future piddly pension to give to them.
But the problem with the left is that they always expect someone else to pick up the bill: look at public finances in the UK if you want to see where that approach leads.
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the money and social security paid by the penshioners when they were working paid for their parents. We now pay for them Thats how pensions work. You don’t pay into a pot and it waits for you to get old
Be grateful you even have a pension because my generation won’t be having one. There will be no state pension when i hit 60 because there will be no money left due to an aging population.
I actually do feel for the pensioners who live in my block because they don’t have alot. I don’t feel sorry for pensioners whinging that they can’t have their annual holiday
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joker capitalism is bad as it leads to excesses which are compounded by peoples’ greed.
I have never said communistic states were good. I travel to eastern europe quite often and have seen the consequneces.
However the reason for communism’s failure is again because of peoples’ inherent greed. If people weren’t greedy communism would work a lot better. Even Churchill admited as much.
Capitalism appears to give choice but it also takes away choice. It is driven by consumerism where its basic aim is to sell as much often rubbish as possible for a profit onto an unsuspecting public. The State aids those in positions of power to keep people on this treadmill as this is where they derive their power from. Jobs are a great method to keep people under control especially when you keep turning up the treadmill speed.
T.V. help sell things to the public as never before. Shops use crafty selling techniques to force people to buy things they wouldn’t. An excellent ploy is the sweets at the counter when hassled mothers have to give in to their toddlers demands for foods high in additives and E numbers which affect their children’s health and ability to concerntrate.
The Protestant Work Ethic has driven the English speaking countries into this work culture we have now to the disadvantage of family life. Hence the elderly get left behind as the young search for work often miles from home.
The child are dumped onto nannies or creches as stressed out mums have to work to finance the golden life of possessions etc. This also leads to problem children who may even end up as latch door kids letting themsleves in once they get home after school because mum and dad are working till late.
Most people are living as robots over here now. Just look at them on the way to work they look like automatons and wouldn’t be out of place on Dr.Who. I find very few free thinking people over here now as they are too stressed out after long stressfull hours under often incompetent bosses and stupid workloads to care about what is really going on.
Yes chase the money if you must but this is falling into the trap set by the powers that be. Very few actually get above the glass ceiling into true financial freedom.
As per the state and pensions.I believe way back when was it the early 1950′s? when pensions were first brought in, that it was decided that as of a certain date anyone retiring would get a pension. Whatever the date was it mean that those who retired the day before got nothing and those that retired the day after got a full pension, so I am led to believe.
If this is the case then it means anyone working on day one of the new pension regime got a full pension even if they retired the next day! Do you see now what I mean by the next generation paying for the preceeding one now?
As you well know people have to pay in for at least 46 years to get a full Jersey pension. However what happened to the first drawers of Jersey pensions if they got given a full pension after a few weeks of working and then retiring they would be given money they shouldn’t have had as they hadn’t paid in a full amount?
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mad foetus you don’t like shirkers right? Thats understandable and most people would be of this view. However I believe that both ends of the socio-economic spectrum abuse the system. You only think about the welfare claimants who take money out.
However I think about the other end who aren’t putting in their fair share of tax so that we now end up paying GST. I would much rather have proper tax across the board. This I believe would bring in more money than that which is wasted on claimants of which you frown upon. Thus if both ends were sorted out the majority would benefit. However for some reaon most people seem to have a blind spot for the top end prefering to vent their anger on the lower end. Why is this? Surely both are as bad as each other and should be stopped?
50k a year is a lot of money way beyond many peoples’ capacity to earn. Not all people don’t do dead end boring underpaid jobs out of choice. Can you blame those at the bottom of the pile for taking the easy option when they see rich getting away with it?
You are right ref pensions which were unviable as they were set up. I get a decent pension when I retire more than those that follow me. However you must blame the government for this for allowing this to happen. You cannot blame those for getting a better deal than you. No one would give something back they were promised would they? You are right it isn’t fair, just like it isn’t fair that the super rich pay less than 20% tax.
I believe everything needs a major overhaul but it will be blocked till the last possible minute as there are vested interests to keep things as they are. This is why I believe this whole system will collapse as it is both economically and environmentally unsustainable
This leads to my second of interest the environment. As you must know we need a significant cull in the numbers of humans on the planet. This will come about either through big wars over dwinderling food, water and other resources, or climatic factors, or planetary factors, or external factors. Which ever way you look at things if you are a true realist you will realise things are set for a big realignment in the near future.
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Mad Foetus (51) sorry but from your posts 16 and 36 you seemed to come across as being someone who is working his fingers to the bone and not very happy with life.Apologies if I got the wrong impression.I myself worked hard in Jersey for many years and paid taxes which I accepted as normal.My point is simply that many pensioners have worked hard and gone without things- they are not all sitting pretty and hoarding pots of money.Regarding your post 57 I fully agree with you that workers should not be paying for the shirkers-many of whom are young,able bodied and should be working too!
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“As you must know we need a significant cull in the numbers of humans on the planet.”
Listen, I know the OAPS have it hard, but that’s a bit extreme.
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#57 Mad Foetus (not just you M.F. but also others holding similar views)
If only you could see the irony in your posts.
You need to join Adrian in his campaign to force the super rich to be subject to 20 means 20.
I don’t hear any of the people who say that GST is fair because everyone has to pay it saying much against the unfairness of 1.(1)Ks not having to be subject to changes in the tax laws because the laws were different when they were “invited” to live in Jersey. Perhaps that is because the publicity machine of the wealthy encourages admiration of rich lifestyles.
Wouldn’t it be good if all those who lived in Jersey before GST could be excused paying it for fear that they might leave the island.
M.F.You mention your eventual pension. Surely you would expect the size of your pension to relate to how much you paid in so hopefully you are guarding against any shortfall or are you spending it all on babe magnetism? (earlier post)
If it appears to you that you won’t get anything eventually then why don’t you start lobbying for a government that will care about it instead of one which counts on your vote and then sells you down the drain.
And as if enough people haven’t already made this point, when you are too old to work you don’t get wages any more, you have to live on savings and pensions which (you probably don’t
know) are not keeping up with the sort of salaries you are used to with your perceived break point between the plodders and the go getters occurring at £50K.
£50K! A hell of a lot of us would love to see £15K to £20K a year income (before tax) and don’t think I’m talking about people at the lower end of the skills market.
You previously commended squirrels saving for the future, that is exactly what these old people did. Unfortunately their nuts got misappropriated.
I suggest that you squirrel likewise (I’m sure you do) and at the same time think about supporting change to a more caring system so that your generation won’t be shortchanged when you become a medication magnet.
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Jersey’s case as confirmed by many of these HYS posts. But I think reading between the lines of Churchill he realised it would never work so forget about it. Capitalism isn’t perfect but it is workable and I think you need to be careful in drawing the line between greed and people wishing to better themselves for the benefit of them, their family and their community.
I don’t mean to offend and merely make a point – your posts are increasingly contradictive. You say stay in Jersey, but then a holiday to Brittany is fine, but then you also travel over a thousand miles to Eastern Europe “quite often”. Please tell me – where is the line not to be crossed? This is a classic example of how socialism sets people up to fail by their own rule (much like religion)… we try and repress our natural desire but find ourselves increasingly curious and breaking our own rules. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that provided you’re not blatantly harming others. The only alternative is THX 1138.
Further on contradiction – you comment on how capitalism is mugging us to buy rubbish we don’t need and that we are fooled or even forced by clever commercialists to do so – sweets at the checkout a classic example. But hang on… you’re aware of the ploy so surely that means the choice to buy is still ours to make? Either that or you think you are among the elitist few able to resist or be aware of such deviousness? I’d give the majority the benefit of the doubt and go with the former. The majority are aware of the ploy all too well but choose to follow, some more than others. Again this choice stretches to how we treat our elders.
So capitalism and commercialism is full of rubbish – tabloids and Big Brother, greed but you’re looking at the worst of it and not the best such as free speech, satire and great literature – all this would be repressed (and to an extent is under an increasingly 1984 style state) under any other ideology. One final positive and probably most important trend about capitalism is it prevents war. I may be wrong but isn’t this the longest peaceful period between all market economies in mans history? We may have a bunch of overpaid bureaucratic corrupt MEPs but that’s better than watching your mate get his head blown off? Funny how the most unstable countries in the world happen to also be those without a stable economy.
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Adrian
“If people weren’t greedy communism would work a lot better. Even Churchill admitted as much”
Wow we agree on something! My favourite of his is “The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter” – totally true in Jersey’s case as confirmed by many of these HYS posts.
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“You need to join Adrian in his campaign to force the super rich to be subject to 20 means 20.”
No I don’t. I believe that if you make a bargain you should stick with it. My word is my bond and I believe the Island should be the same.
If you disagree, then you are saying that what you personally believe is right is more important than what has contractually been agreed. That way lies anarchy.
But it is amusing that you believe that Jersey’s problems are caused by a small number of people paying £80,000 a year tax.
I would say it is caused by the fact that large numbers of Jersey people believe they have a right to a standard of living that is unsustainable.
The only places that have next to no tax for the majority and public funding provided solely by the super rich are the Middle East oligarchies. Ever wonder why?
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RB Bougourd
I’m not sure what kind of change of government you are lobbying for in order to secure pension protection and return. Say you set up a cooperative pension fund for everyone in Jersey who can afford to pay into it. What then? You going to shove the money under your mattress and watch it fade away with inflation? No. Like every other institutional investor you are going to invest in low risk portfolios as that (despite the blip we’re in now) is the only proven way to make a return that gives a real rate of return plus. Or do you have some other new amazing formula that will be called the Bougourd Scheme or the Time 4 Change Scheme for generations to come?
Tax the rich more you say to pay for it? Sure, see how long they stay for. Now not only do you have a pension problem, you’ve also got to fill the black hole that’s increased by another £10 million per year as a result. That’ll be increased GST then further perpetuating pensioners problems.
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joker you call this a little blip do you? The truth about capitalism is now in the full glare of publicity. Financial scams are coming out of the woodwork and yet you still advocate this stupid system?
The first law of capitalism says the strongest businesses survive those no good go to the wall. Well how come the governments around the world are bailing out defective businesses (banks) like crazy? So much for capitalism working it can’t even follow its own free market principles.
As per taxing the rich more I say go for it and get rid of those to selfish to pay their way. If all the top 100 go it will only cost us £8M in lost tax. A drop in the ocean when you are talking about over £600M a year to run Jersey.
Just think if the top one stayed behind and paid at 20% their contribution may actually exceed £8M anyway! Why can’t people think outside the box? Why are they so blinkered into right wing capitalistic mumbo jumbo?
joker you sound very much like a certain pro-Ozouf handle that is seen on a certain right wing forum under dozens of aliases.
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Joker.
I don’t think I have said that I am lobbying for a change in the system. Unfortunately I am not currently able to vote in Jersey.
If I were in a position to make changes I would make sure that never again could pension funds be so recklessly gambled on playing the money market principly to line the pockets of the gamblers rather than benefiting the fund members who entrusted the so called professionals with their assets.
Oh, and thanks for the tip about keeping my money under the mattress, if I’d put it there I might still have it instead of having to go down to the marina to see where my bankers spent it!
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I’m totally with Adrian.
Our capitalist society has led us to experience severe injustices in capital distribution. There is too much excess and greed.
As Adrian points out, communism wouldn’t work because greed is inherent in any society. We need to encourage our government to adopt a more paternalistic approach whereby this inequitable capital distribution is controlled.
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Unfortunately Jon most people are blind to reality and only come to their senses when the end is nigh. Nevermind they will find out soon enough. I view them a bit like the French Aristocrats in France in the 1780′s. Roll on a few years and they lost their heads. Ignorance isn’t always bliss.
Let them eat cake whilst they can. When they get affected I am sure some of these rabid capitalists will be squeeling like pigs, begging for assistance, but then there will be no one left to listen. Nevermind carry on as you are for now.
Anyone attacking the old as far as I am concerned are a waste of space. What makes it more remarkable they then back those who are allowed to get special treatment. So much for everyone being in this together!
mad foetus said “I believe that if you make a bargain you should stick with it. My word is my bond and I believe the Island should be the same.”
Please explain GST to me then? I never agreed to this new tax myself, the government have changed the goal posts, so therefore the rich are in the same boat as far as I am concerned. The government has broken its tax agreement with everyone over this, as far as I am concerned. Jersey sells itself as a low tax area. Things like GST aren’t what you expect in a low tax area, especially when you know GST will end up at VAT levels.
As I have said before I would be quite happy to pay 3% GST when the VAT was removed from local goods. There is no way getting things to Jersey should push prices up by more than around 5%, so as far as I am concerned someone is profiteering from this and the government should look into this. If I am proved right they should take steps to sort it out. However I believe they don’t want to know.
If you think times is hard now what for a couple more years, at this rate Jersey will only be for the rich, as the rest will be driven out due to the high cost of living here and the errosion of wages due to cheaper migrant labour. You will then have a two tier society of the haves and have nots. The rich will then have achieved their aim of cutting labour costs to themselves to the minimum. However these cheaper workers will still be paying lots out just to survive here. This is my prediction for the future in cheap and cheerfull Jersey. No wonder no one comes on holiday here anymore…
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“Our capitalist society has led us to experience severe injustices in capital distribution. There is too much excess and greed.”
I don’t know – it has lifted over a billion people out of absolute poverty in the past 20 years, more than in the history of the world hitherto. Its certainly better than the sort of Pol Pot approach that Adrian recommends.
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mad foetus: “don’t know – it has lifted over a billion people out of absolute poverty in the past 20 years, more than in the history of the world hitherto. Its certainly better than the sort of Pol Pot approach that Adrian recommends.”
Would you attribute that to our ‘laissez faire’ capitalist society or rather to a convergence of attitudes, that is, people have generally developed a consensus of guilt as a result of their superior capital positions and the realisation of the extent that poverty exists in the world?
The latter I would say.
I wouldn’t refer to Adrian’s argument as ‘Pol Pot’, he has an absolutely plausible point in that GST is regressive – it takes more from the poor than the rich! Why should the poor fund a black hole left by the abolishment of corporation tax which, oh surprise surprise, has gone to encourage more firms to come over and widen the rich-poor divide?
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RB Bougourd, why thank you kindly
Someone mentioned me writing mini-essays, well I can only say… if you see how much people (wrongly) assume from those on here that don’t spell it out in the most simplistic terms? that’s why I write mini-essays, to try and not allow stupid assumptions from others
As for the comments above. My Gran (who would be about 108 now) went to University and worked… those that are elderly today could have also, even if it was certainly more difficult than for today’s young. My other Gran was one of those pensioners that cared greatly about the problems her generation had left for our generation.
And that is surely the point, just as we will leave our own mess for our own grandkids, our grandparent’s generation left a mess for us. The Elderly have contributed and deserve to be looked after, but that does not mean they are blameless when it comes to the situation we are now in, they certainly are not.
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“I would say it is caused by the fact that large numbers of Jersey people believe they have a right to a standard of living that is unsustainable.”
Well said. There are genuinely poor people, then there are those that complain about a lack of expendible income yet have all the latest gadgets and the nicest cars, not exactly necessities, more keeping up with the Joneses!
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mad foetus’ comments ref Pol Pot are a good laugh. Maybe I should compare his ideas to Adolph Hitler’s?
All I have advocated is to tax everyone without exception the same over here, and to abolish GST in the wake of this sensible suggestion. However because of this I am a landscape gardener like Pol Pot!
Another sensible solution would be to take the cap off of social security contributions so that everyone paid 6.3% but no doubt this would also be seen as communistic in approach!
People are unbelievable in their naivity and lack of understanding of things. No wonder the government can do as they wish if this is the normal standard of electorate they have to contend with.
As per GST not being a regressive tax I suggest you do so research on the subject, and what the experts say.
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Adrian,
The essence of living in a democracy is submission. You submit yourself to the rule of the majority. Even if you don’t like a specific law, you agree to be law abiding because that is the social contract.
You, on the other hand, proclaim revolution, have no respect for the rule of the law, believe that taxes should be paid by other people who already pay much more than you. In short, you believe that what you think is “ethical” is the most important value statement that can be applied to something.
Which, funnily enough, is just the same as Adolf, Pol and everyone else, because it substitutes “what I think is right” for “what society has decreed is lawful”.
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“joker you sound very much like a certain pro-Ozouf handle that is seen on a certain right wing forum under dozens of aliases.”
No – just this alias and just this site. But yes I’d rather see him in charge of the pennies than the likes of the JDA and T4C who seem adamant in spending tax payers money to make Jersey a handout state in return for cheap votes.
This is a blip – one happens every 10 years or so, 2001, 1991, 1980, 1973 etc etc see the pattern? Any way you haven’t mentioned a suitable alternative to the evils of capitalism… I wonder why? You still haven’t told me the lines you would draw for the people to remain in under your alternative regime? I’m interested to know – seriously.
RB Bougourd
Most of these ‘gamblers’ get commission based on their success. If they don’t get results people don’t invest with them and they are out of a job (as many currently are) don’t let a few bad apples influence you into thinking they are all bad.
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How very insular to have “tough times for oap,s” as a headline.Do the same Oap,s care about the young that are experiencing “hard times”.
Probably not! After all everyones a villain if there young if we are to believe everything we hear.How about doing more for young people & famillies who are expected to contribute to look after the elderley.
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*How very insular to have “tough times for oap,s” as a headline.Do the same Oap,s care about the young that are experiencing “hard times”.
Probably not!*
Exactly what ive been saying all along. The young families are worried about whether or not they can book a holiday, they are worried about whether they can survive!
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mad foetus are you mad as your name implies?
What is this about sumission? Is this some sort of Spanish Inquisition you are talking about here? You will do as you are told!
As per the majority who didn’t want GST what happened there then?
I am law abiding why do you think I am not?
How can taxing all the same percentage of income tax be seen as revolutionary? What’s this got to do with having no respect for the law? People have a duty to speak up if they think things are wrong. What would you have done in the days of slavery? Would you have gone along with it because it was lawfull?
I believe that ethics and morals should be brought to the fore on anything that is done. Why shouldn’t people apply some ethics to things? Don’t you think we have been a bit lax on this front lately with reference to this financial crisis we are in now?
If you advocate ignoring ethics and morals then you go down the route of dictatorship and big brother. Is this what you want?
Accusing me of being dictatorial for wanting a fairer tax system and cutting down on bueaucracy and red tape is a bit odd in my book. You aren’t rich are you by any chance?
joker um if um you um like um this um person um thats um up um to um you.
This um is um a um blip um very um interesting!
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Sorry Adrian nothing else to say other than “um” and no counter? Must mean you know I’m right. You criticise Mad Foetus for not answering you question yet you have avoided mine.
You keep raising the same argument about ethics v law. Most people would agree that slavery was wrong and the law was an ass in that case. Unfortunately your example is far to old as most laws today respect the human rights and ethical values of others. Whether the rich should pay 20 20 is hardly comparable to the ridiculous law that allowed slavery, and the ethical issue with 20 20 hardly holds the same gravity. The point I’m making is that society has drawn a line (something you seem unable to commit to). That line is the law even if it goes against someone arbitrary ethical values. The rich may consider to pay 200 times more tax in absolute value than you is unethical. Who is right? I’m sure you think you are but there in lies the problem. The law sorts this by drawing the line and if you don’t like it continue to protest. You can’t protest against someone’s ethics.
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joker and the point is in drawing a line, the law can be wrong e.g. slavery. Well done you now understand what I have been saying. Are you saying that unethical laws should be obeyed then regardless of consequences?
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