GST to remain on food
Wednesday 1st April 2009, 3:55PM BST.
GST will remain on food and domestic fuel.
The States have rejected Deputy Carolyn Labey’s proposition to remove the tax.
Members voted by 29 to 21 to keep GST on food, and 27 to 23 to keep it on domestic fuel.
• Full report and vote in Thursday’s Jersey Evening Post.
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thanks for trying carolyn and the rest who voted to remove this unfair tax that many of us feel is unjust.
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I terrible result. What a sad day it is for the older people and the less well off.
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Why why why are the Jersey Politicians not trying to the help the residents of the Island. Yet again another decision that i am sure they will live to regret….!!! Well done, good work as usual.
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Thank goodness for this result.The cost to implement GST has cost traders a fortune. To take it off at this stage would not ensure the traders remove the full amount. The money needed to be gained from GST would only have to come from someone else and that would be the tax payer. This way everyone has to pay and not just the tax payer.
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Why did they even bother voting, the hardship tax remains. Double the number of unemployed compared to last year, least number of jobs available for over 10 years and turn the thumb screws on the poor.
We will remember those who voted against!!!
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No surprise there then. I was hoping GST would be removed from food because most of my money goes on food. I can get most of my things from the internet and so save GST and money on buying things locally. I reckon those in charge know this as well so want to make sure they get as much out of people as they can.
All I can say is that this is a morally bankrupt tax.
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Can’t say I am surprised. Just go’s to show how the majority of States members don’t care for the majority of islanders.
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Im not bothered about the 3% on food.
But im a bit cross that things like fruit juice were 56p last year and now the same 1 litre of juice is £1:07!!!!Thats more like 50% in my books.
Whats the issue with 3% if it were only 3%.
I wish somebody would get of there backside and bring in some price control.
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Is there a league table we can look at where we can see which politicians voted for or against in important issues? This would help to show the people who really have the public’s welfare in mind!
We can then make better decisions on who we would like to vote for in future elections!
Perhaps a similar league table to show expenses and any other negative aspects so we can vote them out!
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GST has worked just like decilimisation did. Prices shot up then though we were promised they wouldn’t.They have done so now when we were promised they wouldn’t. Different times and government same end result. Nothing changes.
Ordinary people are being treated like lemons as far as I am concerned. They might be a bit bitter about it but they are being squeezed dry by big business and the rich. Until people learn to say enough is enough nothing will change for the better.
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Remember we lived for decades without this tax and were all better off than now ,the retailers had this forced upon them and are naturally loathe to change again,but whatever the political blustering and excuse making…if you are on a limited income you feel the pinch paying more than necessary for basics food, light and fuel = The rich don’t feel it and the poor…well theyr’e just the poor aren’t they…pass the Dom Perignon…but wait a mo’ is that rebellion and insurrection I hear brewing.? who is this Citizen Robespierre anyway……..
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Not surprised in the slightest. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer
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they know most of our money is spent on food,so i shall cut back on it.if they would have put the tax on tills this would have been simple to remove it and they give the excuse it,s too complicated to remove now as every item would have to be repriced.well bully for them we wanted it on the till to begin with,they gave some pathetic excuse not to.these politition who voted against it certainly hav,nt got the working man,s interest at heart,and nothing will change while they are in power
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Only common sense result….would cost companies loads extra to collect, lots more states civil servants to administer. But Jersey needs to increase help to the older people caught up by the ever increasing cost of living in this high cost community.
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what a farce!!
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Like a previous poster says 50% increases, not uncommon. What really annoys me is, with this GST why are our tax bills due to go up so much in future. Surely GST should bring down our tax.
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Phew! My understanding is that by removing tax from food that would have meant an increase on GST on other items, and a hike in income tax.
I’d rather pay 3% on everything than 4 or 5% on the one or 2 luxuries that I allow myself each month and another 1% on my hard earned cash!
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considering the alternatives, this is a result for common sense
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Wish my biggest outgoing was food ! Instead I suspect like most people who actaually have to work for a living in Jersey it costs me 4 times my monthly food bill just to pay the rent(substitute mortgage for those lucky enough to have bought) and keep a roof over my head. Still shouldn’t grumble …
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Even with the unemployment figures as they are , the obvious overcharging, the refusal to help poorer people and the elderly. How long will the GST remain at 3% ??
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Adrian @6
Buying your goods via the internet to save GST.
that’s tax avoidance.
Does that not make you a hypocrite ?
Or was that not the Adrian who has been preaching ethics and morals over Jerseys tax dealings ?
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can,t really expect anything else from these millionaires,looking after their own interests and the rich getting away with paying next to nothing.so what if they left?we managed before and we would again,and prices would go down in line with other countries.we would be far better off without them much as i hate the curruped EU i think jersey and its people would be far better off if we joined it,as this government would have to toe the line and we would get much better benifits that EU countries get
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Hopefully this will be the last attempt and the States can move on.
Seeing as those in favour of GST being removed from food normally like a good conspiracy, I’m surprised they expect retailers to actually pass the savings on to the customer.
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I’d prefer no GST on basic essentials like food as I can get away with no luxuries. If I need any I can always get them off the internet saving money and the GST on them. Those in charge know this so they will do all they can to squeeze the poorest in our community. Luckily for the rich as they are so well looked after this doesn’t really affect them! It must be so nice having the government bending over backwards to keep you here. Not so good for the poorer OAP’s who are struggling but then they don’t count do they?
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Most countries charge some form of GST, so rather than moaning about it, just accept you’ve had it good for longer than most and now its time to pay.
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You are all missing the point here.
GST should be removed entirely not just off food and power. The vast majority of the electorate – yes the voters have spoken – want this.
As for recovering the cost this would incur, it’s simple. Stop wasting our money. £600M a year to run an island this size is shameful, wasteful and ridiculous. Even saving 10% would mean GST could go.
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and the rich poor divide gets bigger and bigger
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PJG why should anyone pay GST when it is an immoral tax and only in because the rich refuse to pay at 20 means 20? Surely whats good for the 1.1k’s is good for the rest or aren’t the plebs allowed to play the same game? I already pay 20 means 20 and 6.3% social security unlike many others who pay maybe 1% tax and 0.5% social security contributions on their imcome.
Surely you can’t begrudge little old me if I want to use the internet to save a few pounds when these others are saving thousands if not millions via their legal tax breaks and becaues they earn above the social security ceiling of @£38,000?
I am quite happy to pay GST at 3% when others are paying 20 means 20 as well as 6.3% on their social security contributions. Any takers out there? I think its a fair deal.
Just think no one would be paying GST if the above was implimented and I wouldn’t need to scratch around to try and cut costs would I?
However I wouldn’t expect any takers as they are too self centred to care about others, hence they do as they do. Why pay millions when you can get away with £80,000. Capitalism at its best isn’t it?
joker surely you aren’t happy being bled by this government?
Well done bella someone with an understanding of what is going on over here. Yes the ordinary person would be better off with the protection of the EU. At least then there would be proper human rights and redundancy laws in place and unrestricted travel for Channel Islanders wouldn’t there? However the rich would be in for a shock. We can’t have that can we?
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Well Carolyn at least you tried. As for the eight Members whose manifesto’s said that they would vote for the removal of GST and then changed their minds (once elected!)in my book they are just as dishonest as Senator Jim Perchard and can be placed in the same category. After only 4 months into this new ‘parliament’ we alrady have nine members whose words can not be trusted!
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well, its good to see politicians voting for what is clearly in the best interests of the Island rather than pandering to those who believe they should not contribute a penny to living in Jersey.
The shirkers may be upset, but the workers salute you.
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PJG what are you talking about?trying to say we are avoiding tax by buying from the internet.what rubbish its perfectly legal to shop on-line for any goods less than £400 and we are entitled to ask for uk VAT off the goods,unlike jersey that still charge uk VAT,where they can get away with it.well i for one will not give them the satisfaction of ripping me off here,the,ve had their day,and i don,t even bother to go to town anymore since woolies left,theres nothing their except clothes and shoe shops,and if they go bust they only have themselves to blame.i have the same view as adrian they certainly did know what they were doing with this GST,soon jersey will price itself right out of the market altogether.
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Adrian stop squirming.
You always take the high moral ground, own up you are at heart no more ethical or moralistic than the rest of us. This just goes to show that if it costs you, you are prepared to use the tax laws the same as the rich to save a few bob of yours going into the pot to target the less well off.
Its called tax avoidance no matter how you dress it up.
I like the majority of posters you have ridiculed have no problem with people legally avoiding tax only hypocrites and those illegally evading it.
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“PJG why should anyone pay GST when it is an immoral tax”
Adrian, why don’t you go and live in Guernsey? After all, every other country in the world has GST or a variant thereof, including those bastions of evil, New Zealand, Sweden, France, Canada etc etc
GST immoral? Next you’ll be using the Geoff Southern double speak and calling anybody without job “ordinary hard working”
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People are saying about not helping the poor – well, they get £150 this year as a result of GST, if they had filled in the form. I even know of one person who got this £150 from the States then used it to buy clothes that day – and yet still moan about paying the GST. I haven’t bought new clothes for months – can’t afford to, and I work for a living.
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Adrian but you have commented on a number of occasions that you need to look beyond what is legally acceptable with regard to managing your finances and contributing through taxes to your community and take a moral view. I may have misunderstood the distinction but you seem to suggest that means ppl should pay their taxes fair and square and were happy to get on your high horse and point the finger at people limiting their tax liabilities though legal means. How does that fit with your comment of avoiding GST ? Your brief explanation seems I am afraid pretty self-serving – I don’t like the GST law so I am justified in avoiding it. Wouldn’t most people legally limiting the amount the government takes off them be able to provide similarly supportive arguments for their choices too ? I am sure many people for example attempting to limit inheritance or capital gain tax liabilities in the UK would say the same.
At the end of the day governments set there own tax laws and regulations and are responsible for interpreting and enforcing them. They set applicable limits, exemptions, exceptions, thresholds, allowances etc and unless the circumstances point to an entirely artificial attempt to take advantage of those which is not in the spirit of the law then ppl are acting entirely appropriately in managing their affairs accordingly.
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PJG if you can’t see you are being taken to the cleaners that your problem. It would nice to see you answer my points above though. As per GST did you know that it is illegal in the UK to charge a tax on a tax. However in Jersey we get charged VAT (dressed up as import costs) then we have GST leveed on top. I am quite happy to pay GST when VAT is taken off making it legal to charge.
You misunderstand me I have only pointed out basic facts over why we have the problems we do. You take it as ridicule I didn’t mean it as such. If people get upset when morals and ethics are raised it must have hit a raw nerve as far as I am concerned and why would that be?
This is where turning a blind eye to ethics and morals get you everyone. Illegal wars, sub prime, banking collapses, tax avoidance, and GST. Hence as you sow so shall you reap. Get used to it because it is only going to get worse….
mad foetus GST is immoral as it is a regressive tax. Using the excuse that it is allowed elsewhere is very lame in my book. Maybe if killing people was made legal elsewhere you would agree with that as well?
Answer me this mad foetus if you are able. Would you prefer the rich to pay 20% tax and to not pay GST? Or are you happy to be paying GST knowing that certain people could easily be paying more than £80,000 in tax?
I prefer my home island pre-GST I’m afraid and I will alway vote for non-establishment figures who will do as they are told by the majority of islanders, and not those that do as they are told by the rich and big business, maybe unlike you?
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Lets not for forget if you are rich enough to have a nice big boat they will take the tax off for you and Oh tell you what we wont charge GST. I wouldn’t mind if it was for working boats but not to have tax or GST for big yachts come on. And for the ones who say good job for putting GST on food will you be saying that in five or six years when GST will be seven or eight ten percent we can do with out luxuries but food is a necessary and it is one of your biggest weekly outgoings.
.
Adrian had it spot on
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Unfortunately you cannot put the Genie back in the bottle is anyone really naive enough to think that if GST was removed from food that retailers would pass on the saving to the consumers? Even if they did this would only be temporary and prices would soon shoot back up again.
GST is not the problem, the issue is lack of competition and our willingness to shop at over priced stores and re-elect the same self-serving dross time after time, either that or allow their election by not voting at all.
I suggest you all stop moaning and use all legal means at your disposal to put a stop to your own exploitation. There are plenty of ways within the law to try and achieve this, or do your protests go no further than a moan on the internet? Really Put up or shut up.
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Adrian. There is no difference in a wealthy individual paying less tax because the law allows them to, than someone buying things over the internet because the law allows them to. They are both using the system to their advantage to avoid paying tax. And fair play, after all, I don’t there is a single person who would be willing to pay more than they have to.
Maybe in your next post when you are preaching about morals and ethics you can add a line or 2 about hyprocity as well.
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I now live in canada who also has GST as well as provincial services tax.Food is exempt from GST as it is a basic human need.Yes we get taxed on other stuff,but it’s still way cheaper.All I can say is every normal person in Jersey has my sympathy and I feel really sad that thias is a reminder as to exactly why we left Jersey as much as we loved living there.
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Wake up guys,this is exactly what the government wants ,squabbling whilst including the issue as though it were legitimate..we were told that GST would have to be introduced due to some fictitious black hole, the headlines thereafter had the treasurer saying he actually had no idea how much we had, then Hey presto as if by magic more millions were miraculously found overnight,did the Govt, say swiftly whoa! there chaps ,sorry as you were? no by George because they want the “Tap” of Gst in place so they can turn it up anytime to pay for what they spend foolishly and Now without our say so…fast forward we now have the treasury minister saying ..Ahh I must consult more experts to help me spend £140 million from the stabilization fund….by my calculations exceeding the original £40 mill. alleged shortfall by a mere £100–Mill.and then it’s o.k to squander £3 million on a Euro cock up a la incinerator…and £1.2 Mill to move the central reservation at Bel Royal 4 inches after it had been there most of my lifetime doing no harm…on and on the waste goes, developers and civil servants get fatter… Let’s just tax the mug punters after all they’ll stand for anything…No No people we are being bamboozled and will continue to be whilst we stand for it.
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9. Moi
You can find the voting records on the States of Jersey Greffe website
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I am bemused by one regular poster on these threads, in one hand he says send the rich back to where they came from so they pay tax in their birth country, we are immoral in allowing them to live here, then he says well if the rich paid 20 means 20 we wouldn’t have gst?
Surely if we sent them back we would have less revenue, so taxes would need to go up to compensate, or am I missing something?
I think someone is having a moral dilemma!!!
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Buying goods off the internet works out much, much cheaper that buying them in rip-off Jersey. Even before GST arrived on the scene this is the way I went about it. I suspect Adrian buys his good from the internet because they are cheaper than buying them in local shops. Does that make us guilty of tax avoidance if we continue to buy from the internet? Of course it doesn’t. The GST exempt status for any goods under £400 is due to the cost that customs would incur for collecting such a small amount of GST (they only collect £12.00 for goods to the value of £400.00).
A good majority of UK internet sellers don’t take VAT of their prices – and it still works out cheaper than buying the goods in Jersey with only a 3% goods tax!
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Try living in a country which charges 33-35% tax AND 25% equvialent to GST then you might have something to say.
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Broken election promises which had been made by this rotten cabal.
Shame on you, the 8.
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Big Bean you still haven’t grasped the situation I presume you pay under the 20 means 20 regulations for tax as do I? Are you happy with others paying 1-2% because they have a better relationship with the tax man?
I am saying that if it is made a level playing field then this is fair to all, or are some more equal than others? I take it from this you don’t worry about morals or ethics unless they adversely affect you?
If this is the case then this explains why things are getting worse and worse globally as too many greedy self serving people are messing it up for everyone as well as the environment.
Gary if the super rich over here paid 20% tax we wouldn’t need GST is this too difficult for you to understand?
If people want to leave because they have to more pay tax thats down to them. You cannot force people to stay here who are only interested in pounds, shillings and pence. In reality do you want these sorts here anyway, as they will have no interest in being a proper part of the community like the rest?
I can’t see what is difficult about paying 20% tax? Others are making such a big deal about this defending the undefendable as far as I am concerned.
If tax revenues go down you have less to spend but you have less people to spend it on don’t you? Also the rich invariably push house prices well above what they should be. So less of them will benefit those struggling to get on the proerty ladder. Also local prices will have to come down as local businesses will be forced to realign their prices due to a lot less money around. This will also benefit everyone. So there are also positives from all this as well.
We all know there are far too many people over here so from an ecological and environmental point of view this will be a big benefit for the island, if the population fell to a more realistic level. The deomgraphic time bomb is going to hit us regardless of how many people we import as everyone is aging together. By increasing the population we are increasing our problems with regard to everything from housing to tax returns, to social needs etc.
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Adrian
I think AI @ 35 has answered your points most eloquently, I concur completely with him.
Also you have answered your own question “VAT (dressed up as import costs)”They are import costs not VAT, I don’t know how much you do import but the costs are extremely high across our bit of water. One 20foot flat trailer is aproximatly £1500, depending how bulky your goods are that can really add to the price. Some shops do add on the carriage at a level similar to VAT but then you can always shop elsewhere if you think you are being ripped off.
I am still waiting for you to justify your doing exactly what you are telling others not to do because its unethical “tax avoidance” (is this your raw nerve ?)
You really must keep track of your posts, to contradict oneself the way you keep doing really detracts from the impact of your views.
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ALI i got the £150 gst rebate as i don,t pay income tax or get suppliments on my pension,i refuse to go cap in hand,to me its like begging,but the rebate form was sent to us as they know who pays income tax or not. it paid one third of my electric bill.its no big deal when you compare this to the high cost of living. some of you here should try living on a basic pension and see how far your money goes.we used to go out once a week for a pub lunch now even that is out the window as their prices haved soared in recent months.
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Here is the List of the Votes for GST ON food, don’t vote them in again.
Senator Stuart Syvret
POUR
Senator Terence Augustine Le Sueur
CONTRE
Senator Paul Francis Routier
CONTRE
Senator Philip Francis Cyril Ozouf
CONTRE
Senator Terence John Le Main
CONTRE
Senator Ben Edward Shenton
NOT PRESENT
Senator Frederick Ellyer Cohen
CONTRE
Senator James Leslie Perchard
CONTRE
Senator Alan Breckon
EN DEFAUT
Senator Sarah Craig Ferguson
CONTRE
Senator Alan John Henry Maclean
CONTRE
Senator Bryan Ian Le Marquand
POUR
Connétable Kenneth Priaulx Vibert
CONTRE
Connétable Alan Simon Crowcroft
POUR
Connétable John Le Sueur Gallichan
CONTRE
Connétable Daniel Joseph Murphy
CONTRE
Connétable Michael Keith Jackson
CONTRE
Connétable Silvanus Arthur Yates
CONTRE
Connétable Graeme Frank Butcher
CONTRE
Connétable Peter Frederick Maurice Hanning
CONTRE
Connétable Leonard Norman
CONTRE
Connétable John Martin Refault
CONTRE
Connétable Deidre Wendy Mezbourian
POUR
Connétable Juliette Gallichan
CONTRE
Deputy Robert Charles Duhamel
CONTRE
Deputy Frederick John Hill, B.E.M.
CONTRE
Deputy Roy George Le Hérissier
POUR
Deputy John Benjamin Fox
CONTRE
Deputy Judith Ann Martin
POUR
Deputy Geoffrey Peter Southern
POUR
Deputy James Gordon Reed
CONTRE
Deputy Carolyn Fiona Labey
POUR
Deputy Collin Hedley Egré
POUR
Deputy Jacqueline Ann Hilton
POUR
Deputy Paul Vincent Francis Le Claire
POUR
Deputy John Alexander Nicholas Le Fondré
CONTRE
Deputy Anne Enid Pryke
CONTRE
Deputy Sean Power
CONTRE
Deputy Shona Pitman
POUR
Deputy Kevin Charles Lewis
CONTRE
Deputy Ian Joseph Gorst
POUR
Deputy Philip John Rondel
POUR
Deputy Montfort Tadier
POUR
Deputy Angela Elizabeth Jeune
CONTRE
Deputy Daniel John Arabin Wimberley
POUR
Deputy Trevor Mark Pitman
POUR
Deputy Anne Teresa Dupre
CONTRE
Deputy Edward James Noel
CONTRE
Deputy Tracey Anne Vallois
POUR
Deputy Michael Roderick Higgins
POUR
Deputy Andrew Kenneth Francis Green M.B.E.
POUR
Deputy Deborah Jane De Sousa
EXCUSED ATTENDANCE
Deputy Jeremy Martin Maçon
POUR
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“Answer me this mad foetus if you are able. Would you prefer the rich to pay 20% tax and to not pay GST? Or are you happy to be paying GST knowing that certain people could easily be paying more than £80,000 in tax?”
I would prefer you to pay £600m in tax and the rest of us to pay nothing, Adrian.
But in the real world, I think everyone should contribute and I think GST, being based on consumption and difficult to avoid, is a very moral tax. The fact that every other country in the world charges GST perhaps indicates that, rather than the whole world other than you being immoral, your sums don’t add up.
If it was possible to fund a society by having a few rich people pay tax for everyone, trust me, someone would be doing it.
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Thats what I like about you mad foetus you can’t answer a basic question.
PJG can you answer this question do you think everyone should pay 20 means 20 or are some more equal than others? I have no problems with people making use of laws to minimise their tax if they are applied equally to one and all. You haven’t yet understood this.
As per GST everyone will be entitled to use the same laws in the same way, there is no extra allowance for being richer than someone else unlike in the tax laws over here. Everyone is allowed £400 worth of goods GST free, the rich for example don’t get £1M worth do they? Maybe you now get my point.
As per buying things online as I have said before I can buy things online and save on GST the same as anyone else.
Competition is meant to bring prices down locally however we have no competition locally do we? If the government can’t be bothered to enforce proper regulations as regards pricing over here you can’t really blame others for voting with their feet can you?
How much have you bought on line by the way or are you quite happy to be paying a tax that wasn’t needed?
By the way PJG there is no way that everything into Jersey conveniently costs 17.5% to import and you know it. Yet again the government has let us down on this ridicule state of affairs. Can you image off shore islands in Scotland paying 17.5% on top of already vatted prices?
It is good to see that people have the ability to read posts when they want to.
By the way mad foetus it is possible to fund a country on rich’s people taxes, if they aren’t allowed to slip through the net. Governments allow this so you must blame them yet again for going with the rich and big business.
I am amazed that not many can see the nonsense that is capitalism and the way things are run by the rich for the rich. Is it any wonder things are collapsing around peoples’ heads when this is the case?
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I think we have to have a tax on some things in order to plug the hole left after we stopped taxing the finance industry. However, some things we really should not be taxing, and food is one of those. But what really winds me up is the broken election promises made by Constable Refault & Routier and the others to vote against GST on food. What possible trust can they expect from the public ? None is the answer, for they have shown their colours for what they truly are.
Angry Tony
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bella, I’m well aware that there are honest people out there who have worked in the past and now have pensions, and I understand the problems.
I was focussing on a group of people who rubbed it in that they do nothing for a living, are of working age, aren’t interested in working, and got this £150 for GST rebates and spent it all in town on themselves. The rebate was to help with other things, like pay for bills (now there’s GST on them) not for drink and other such.
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if you want to pay VAT and GST together shop in one of the large uk shops, their the ones pretendinig VAT is freight, not the locally run businesses.
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“I am amazed that not many can see the nonsense that is capitalism and the way things are run by the rich for the rich.”
That’s where you are wrong. It is run by the rich for the people who aspire to better themselves, not, as you would prefer, by the self-satisfied for the self-righteous. That experiment failed.
But come one, pray tell. name the countries that survive solely on a few rich people paying all the tax revenues?
Ah yes, of course, “if they aren’t allowed to slip through the net”.
And if I had some eggs I could have some ham and eggs if I had some ham.
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GST at 3% is fine with me as part of a blend of taxes – the money has to be paid by someone. It brings in to the tax net both visitors and those otherwise self-sufficient but without a taxable income whilst leaving the bulk of tax to come from those earning. Anyone on the breadline can be compensated by the social.
Frankly though what I would prefer to see forming part of the required states revenues is capital gains on property being taxed as income. That would certainly make the greedy property speculators and buy-to-let investors pause for thought ! The consequent reduction in prices would be a benefit for all making a life in the island. As in the UK you could exempt your primary dwelling from this it is just those buying investments properties that would pay tax.
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Why is nobody supporting Adrian’s plea to include the super rich in the 20 means 20 system.
Nobody is being excused GST on the grounds that it didn’t exist when they decided to live in Jersey.
If these people won’t pay 20% let them go back to paying 40% or whatever they escaped by living in Jersey.
Yes, they might go somewhere more havenly. That should free up places for people who truly want
to live in Jersey and still have plenty of taxable income.
I am not going to argue any more with fools who admire the current system whilst complaining that they are or will be hard done by.
Adrian may feel hard done by but at least he wants the system changed to something more fair.
By the way, Adrian, congrats on extricating yourself from the internet buying gaffe.
As you now point out, that is a loophole for everyone to take advantage of.
Not like 20 doesn’t have to mean 20 if you are super rich.
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Maybe if the proposition had been simply to exempt all food it would have succeeded. It was not. It was to try to copy the complex and costly rules devised by the UK Government for their VAT food exemptions which is simply madness.
Had this proposition be accepted what would have happened? Land tax is fine but we are not rezoning that many fields and this would be passed on to the first time buyers. A carbon tax – that will put up electricity and heating. Increase GST on other goods seems the logical answer. The Isle of Man went down this road and signed up to the UK VAT system currently at 15 %.
Fortunately we still have sufficient politicians with the competence and integrity to do their job, to look at each proposition and ALL the facts and not just the media hype and make the best choice for the future wellbeing of all the people of the Island.
Please keep GST simple so that it stays at 3%.
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Stepping aside from the current debate, I think Jersey has missed the boat on VAT / GST – Let me explain….
For the past 20 years or so, UK stores have got away with charging UK prices which reflect VAT. During this time, the States have been powerless to act, but in needing to raise revene, they have effectively frozen personal tax allowances over this period, thus bringing in many more families on low incomes into the income tax net! In addition, duties on road fuel, drink and tobacco have been increased substantially, contributing to the islands rate of inflation, and possibly the down turn in Tourism.
Now the States have a requirement to raise revenue, and having run out of options, they have late in the day been forced to introduce a unilateral sales tax.
Had the States introduced a sales tax from the early 90′s such as UK VAT with exemptions on food and childrens clothes, this would have sent a strong message to the High Street on pricing policies. Persoanl Tax Allowances could have continued to be increased significantly, keeping families on lower income out of the income tax net.
Contrast that with the situation we have now. Most working families pay income tax, and GST on everything they purchase localy. The UK retailers continue to do nicely out of Jersey, even boasting that they are absorbing the local GST !
I accept that any change is fiscal policy is contentious, but I do believe that if Jersey had sought to ‘balance’ the collection of taxes between Income Tax and VAT/GST back in the early 90′s, the situation we now face could be much fairer, and thouse on low incomes only paying tax on items that they chose to buy.
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Adrian, your understanding of the EU only seems to consider the good aspects.
The UK spends so much money each year with every man and their dog taking frankly ridiculous issues to the Human Rights Court. All this has done is mean that the taxpayer now has to pay more for criminals, even had to compensate Abu Hamza, oh, and criminal children get holidays!
The EU is bad, bad, bad, bad… there are elements that are good but society end up paying so much for so little and usually for stuff they totally disagree with.
I want my taxes going, as much as possible, on issues the majority of the people of this land agree with, not on what politicians that aren’t even from this country dictate!
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And Adrian, being from an ‘off-shore’ Scottish island, you are lucky if a courier will even deliver. Which makes life interesting as the only things available on the island are basic groceries, no gadgets to buy here. If they do deliver, you get charged a horrific delivery fee that outweighs the cost of you going over to the mainland and picking it up from a city shop somewhere. Of course, if you do that from this island you have a 6-hour round trip sail, minimum 5-hour round trip drive, and an overnight stay in a hotel (two nights in Winter or mid-week). And that’s only for Inner Hebridean islands, double the sail and the drive time for the Outer Hebrides!
Oh, and costs are higher than in Jersey for many items. Fuel is minimum 20p higher per litre than in mainland UK (then there’s the difference to Jersey again) yet you need to drive to get anywhere. On the smaller islands (like mine) there is no competition at all, none, kapoot, zip, zero! VAT is irrelevant cause it is swamped by all the other costs.
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Leah you are correct ref the EU there are down sides, but what would be the best for the working class in Jersey?
1.To stay as it is exposed to a lack of protection in many fields over here working in a business increasingly shunned by many in the world the resultant shutdown of which would collapse the economy. Extemely high prices for basic food stuffs, off island travel silly prices etc etc. The rich obviously could relocate almost at the touch of a button to another place, leaving the rest to face the music.
2.To go into the EU so that the indigenous population could move freely in Europe. There would be proper human rights and associated laws to protect workers from unscrupulous employers, an outside body to monitor the local government and what it did. No more tax avoidance and no worry if the local one and only business was shut down as we would get EU help to rebuild into a more globally accepted business centre?
As per the rich it is a no brainer the EU is very, very bad, because they might have to pay the same tax as everyone else and we can’t have that in a fair and just world can we?
What do you think a bit of a hard choice isn’t it?
Sorry but GST shouldn’t have been entertained we have been led down the path of spiralling prices becuase of this.
The easiest and least affecting to everyone would have been to take the ceiling off of social security contributions so everyone paid 6.3% regardless of income and to bring the rich in line with the rest of us. This would have needed no extra staff and caused no hassle to business like GST has. However because certain people might have been upset we choice the much more punishing and job costly approach. Where is the common sense when we are all concerned with cutting down on red tape?
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From the comments it appears that many advocate that we should copy the UK – pay 15% on all goods including children’s snacks but exempt food items including caviar! Copy UK human rights so that criminals can run free whilst the remainder of the population lock their doors and are scared to go outside. That we should subsidise a few select UK retailers to set up in Jersey at the risk of closing our smaller local shops. That once the likes of Tesco get a monopoly they will continue to charge very low prices. That all those loosing their jobs will, after they have been subjected to a UK style vetting procedure get UK level unemployment benefit. I assume that this will be paid for by increasing local income tax to UK levels, VAT on domestic fuel, death duty and capital gains tax just like the UK. The latter should get rid of all the rich immigrants so loads of empty mansions. Of course the loss of the rich will result in the closure of the garages, garden firms, swimming pool maintenance and all the other industries that make the cream of their profits in servicing these unwanted individuals adding further to our unemployment and probably even higher taxes than in the UK. Maybe we should copy the UK and become a tax haven by creating a “non domicile” rule so that the rich are exempt tax.
This idea of a new Jersey scares me. Jersey will become populated by just a few rich people who are prepared to pay the taxes whilst the rest of us will be reduced to surfs begging for their favour. No chance for our kids studying hard at school a getting a well paid job. I assume they will take advantage of their new human rights, whatever that enables them to do. Our hospital will close as will the schools, old age pensions and benefits will be reduced to the poverty level just like the UK.
In the meantime I will happily pay my 3% GST and try not to waste food. I will not stoop to avoiding tax by shopping online but will support local business. I will sleep soundly at night knowing that I have played my part and that thanks to my tax the hospital will stay open, kids will receive an education and the old will receive their pension. Jersey is not perfect and we are all entitled to our little moans. But compared to the rest of the world Jersey is a great place to live and for those who doubt this just go and live in the UK.
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Adrian – if you get your way you will not need to worry about any social security ceiling as nobody will be earning anything like enough to pay it. What is the UK Social Security for us peasants -11% or more? Plus all the other taxes they are subject to. Join the EU will give locals the chance to move to Europe but without money and no jobs what good is this. Open your eyes because the world outside of Jersey is not all roses and if as you advocate we throw our rattle out of the pram we will not get it back – some other jurisdiction will just nick it.
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Adrian #47
No its not difficult for me to understand what I was asking (which you didn’t answer) was, is it ethical that these rich people are here? you have mentioned numerous times that they shouldn’t be, if you stand by this then you can’t use them to cure the GST issue, either its wrong that they are here and they should go or its ok but they should pay 20 means 20. If you say its wrong that they are here but well they are so they should pay 20 means 20 then you are as unethical as the many people you accuse of such on here? answer please…..
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Just a thought,
If we were part of the EU would we be able to impose housing laws? I can tell you that everytime Guernsey has been taken to the European court (and yes I know they have the same status as us) they have lost. Could you imagine the floodgates opening, we can’t have it both ways and I think being part of the EU would be a big mistake
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Adrian’s position has been exposed. He believes that
1) The finance industry is unethical yet he is happy to live in a place almost entirely funded by the industry
2) He believes tax avoidance is unethical and yet admits to doing it himself with internet purchases
3) He believes in equality as long as others pay more tax but not him
And now he wants Jersey in the EU so that the rich will pay more taxes! Priceless.
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Gary whoever is here should pay the same rate of tax shouldn’t they? Yes you are right these people have come over here to avoid taxes but where do you draw the line reference people moving from one place to another? Lets face it everyone is an economic migrant to some degree or other. The only way to stop this would to be stop people moving elsewhere, do you think people would wear that?
In this case how do you get around this issue? Surely if they are here they should contribute the same as the rest or do you compound this issue by allowing them to avoid their new communities tax structure as well?
If as everyone keeps saying in the government that taxing the rich at 20 means 20 will drive them away then your moral issue you have raised is then rectified isn’t it? Would you not say this has been achieved in the fairest manner possible under the circumstances?
Sanity unfortunately your 3% will not go very far nor will the rest. Soon it will be increased to at least 10% then where will you be? Maybe in economic problems like more and more people will be however those earning more than £38,000 will not pay 6.3% but proportionally less and less till it becomes almost negligible. Why should someone on £80,000 pay the same social security contributions as someone on @£40,000?
Maybe if we are in a user pays world now, like the government keep preaching, it is time to introduce school fees so that parents paid for their childrens’ education? I paid for mine so why can’t everyone else do the same? This would cut taxation down quite a bit wouldn’t it? This surely is fair to everyone especially those who don’t have children?
As per tax surely everyone in Jersey should be expected to pay 20 means 20? If someone can’t be bothered to pay 20% they can go elsewhere can’t they?
Jersey will go down the route you discribe if things carry on as they are, as the rich due to their unwillingness to shoulder a more even burden will force the plebs as some call the lower orders to pay more and more. This is the only way it can go, especially if more and more rich people flock here. Lay the demographic time bomb over this with the States doomed policies to suck in ever increasing numbers of workers to cover the age discrepancies and this will exasibate the situation further.
I myself don’t think people should be able to manipulate the system but I have no control over what the government decides. I think it made a mistake going down that road however how does one correct it now? Maybe it is about time for world wide inititives to set proper regulations over tax and how it affects the global economy etc? We can’t sustain things as they are thats for sure.
As per the EU we are either in or out, this half way house is no good to anyone except the select few. Yes there are problems within the EU and yes there are problems being outside the EU. What the Channel Islands need to decide is whether they want to be one of the few small fish in a with a few massive sharks? The world is now solidifying into four or five super trading blocks, those outside of these will be leaving themselves open to the good will of these super neigbours. Any small insignificant spots on the map who try and upset the balance are more than likely to be squashed.
As far as I can see it, the UK will end up being forced to tow the line with reference to finance and the City of London, and it satelights like the Channel Islands, to remain within a greater Europe, or it will be forced to take the unimaginable step of leaving the EU and all that that would entail. You takes your choice and act accordingly.
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To Sanity (comment 64)”Jersey is a great place to live and for those who doubt it go and live in the UK” Well I did go and live in the UK three years ago (after all my life from birth onwards in Jersey)I can say that I am very happy here,my standard of living is far better than it was in Jersey and I have no complaints.I wish some people in Jersey would not assume that the entire UK is an unpleasant inner-city.Where I live the people are friendly,it is safe and the community spirit is excellent.If you are happy with your life in Jersey then good for you but I feel sorry for those who are wanting to leave because of the cost of living-not helped by GST-and the struggle that they face in trying to keep their heads above water.
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70 Julie….I agree.
I’m Jersey born and bred and cannot wait to leave the island I once called home.
I am on a decent wage and have no kids or liabilities and yet I cannot foresee anytime soon where I may be able to step on the property ladder….I’m certainly not paying £500k for a pathetic 3 bed terraced house when my hard earned pounds can buy me a palace in comparison elsewhere.
All I have to do is convinve my fiancee to return to her homeland in South Africa and I’m gone
It’s just a shame that so many “locals” feel they have no other choice but to leave
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Adrian, much as it is the point of this thread, I was not specifically targeting GST with my EU complaints. The UKs EU status has created more problems than it has solved and caused the UK taxpayer to pay for both killers and terrorists. Jersey is lucky in that it can view the mess that is the UK being part of the EU and learn from it. It is too late for the UK. Despite the fact that had a referendum taken place the UK would most likely not have become part of the EU in the first place!
As for GST. Well there are poor people and there are poor people. There are poor people in the UK who get all sorts of benefits but seem to manage to have more expendible income (at the expense of the taxpayer mind) than a hard-working citizen like myself. GST on food to me seems relatively fair. It means that everyone contributes (since everyone needs to eat) but those that choose more luxury food items (and can afford them) pay that little bit more tax because of it. I feel for those that are genuinely poor but many of us that work are struggling to make ends meet without taxpayer’s assistance and until Government’s fully recognise this issue to be as critical as it really is then I would rather everyone was taxed than ‘everyone but those on benefits’.
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Julie #70, so true. I encounter this attitude towards the UK loads. And it makes me laugh.
I love the sea, it is such a big part of my life and therefore my quality of life is better in Jersey than living in a city. But not everyone has that love of the sea, and some people may well find their quality of life is much improved in the UK (be it a city or otherwise). Some people love the pace of the city, the noise (I have to admit I loved the noise of New York) and the opportunity.
Were my man’s employment abilities applicable to my homeland then I would stay there till I died without question, it is an island not much smaller than Jersey and the quality of life there is astounding. No crime, no Police, totally fresh air, no light pollution or noise pollution, the kids are just totally fun and have the ability to mix with people of all ages hence they don’t play up like some Jersey kids do.
Jersey is definitely my second choice, I chose a man over my homeland. Not all of the UK is bad. Plenty of my friends have been to Jersey and they would choose a city in Scotland anyday.
We all want and need different things. Thankfully!
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Mad foetus.
corrections to:-
1. this isn’t a good state of affairs and people need to speak up on this. No I am not happy with this and neither should anyone who has any morals or ethics.
2. GST is a morally bankrupt tax however everyone can use the internet to buy up to £400 worth of goods. Therefore everyone treated the same. As I have said before I can buy stuff off of the internet if I so wish and then I won’t get charged to GST on it, just like you and the richest person in Jersey can if they so want. This is fair and above board to all. No one gets preferential treatment because of the size of their wallet.
3. I believe in 20 means 20 for everyone but you don’t. You believe in allowing certain groups to select their own tax regime. So much for an all inclusive society.
I can only draw the conclusion from the above that you probably work in finance or are rich yourself, don’t care about others as long as you get your money and you support the socio-economic divide that has replaced the good old class structure in Britain. Maybe we should doff our caps to these people? What do you think?
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Adrian,
My understanding is that around 100 people in Jersey have special tax treatment that they negotiated with the tax authorities. They were all looking to relocate to a low tax jurisdiction. The authorities took the view that the Island would benefit from having these people, who pay on average £80k a year in tax, who have business interests and are expected to spend significant amounts in the local economy.
It’s 100 people, they all pay much more tax than you and if we changed the arrangements they would either sue, leave or both.
And I do work in the finance industry. But then I am local and looking to provide for my family. i didn’t realise I was taking part in a class war.
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Jersey has an income tax structure that allows a family man with 3 Kids to earn £20,000 pa and pay hardly any income tax.
A single man in the same job pays a lot more on the same earnings.
This is immoral and unethical as the 2 do the same amount of work, get paid the same but are taxed differently because one puts a strain on society and the other perhaps has a medical problem ?
Is it ethical and moral for the man who has spent his life drinking and womanising his life savings away to lye in a bed in an old peoples home alongside a man who has had his house sold so he can enjoy the same.
I assume HIE exempt people are to be considered lesser human beings as they pay less social insurance than the rest of us.
Our Social Security is immoral and unethical, Why should the waster who spends his life unemployed drinking and breeding have his lifestyle,health and pension supported by the hardworking.
You raging socialists really need to wake up and realise the human race needs to be competitive or it will stagnate into a state such as you advocate where the only way out would be to cull the excess of humanity that the land could not sustain. Perhaps you selfless socialists would be happy to commit suicide at the age of 35 to maintain this utopia .
For the human race to maintain its competitiveness we must have the haves and the have not’s,( or the gots and cant be bothered to gets)it must be appreciated we need something to aspire to or not become, its called incentive to better oneself.
Why would anyone want to work in this dream island, work his butt of to pay for the rest of the wasters to live the lives of Reilly.
You socialists may relish this future.
Not me I think its immoral and unethical to live parasitically off the backs of those who are prepared to go out and make something of themselves.
Its not immoral or unethical to be rich, but envy, now there’s a different soap box.
Indirect taxation such as income tax surely is immoral and unethical, the harder you work, the more responsibility you take on the more you are taxed .
GST now there’s an ethical tax, Everyone pays it at the same rate, We can all use the internet to partake in £400 worth of tax avoidance. We don’t even have to pay it if we don’t want to. All we have to do is live in hole in the ground eat rats and drink from puddles ( as in the socialist utopian island mention above).
I think capitalism is much more ethical than this morally bankrupt socialism. It will keep humanity striving forward towards the rewards of an infinite future.
Bit extreme this moralising and ethicalising, still it makes me feel good to preach to all you lesser beings out there, and mini essays that are nothing more than me spouting off make me feel wonderful also.
Seriose now !
We in Jersey have a pretty fair tax system, it copes reasonably well with our diverse population.
There will always be extremes but the compromise we have “don’t work too bad”.
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PJG you can keep your Enron’s, Madoff’s, rotten banks, sub prime loans, raiding of pension funds by companies to waste on other projects. Money is a joke and the joke’s on you I’m afraid. You work for tokens and that’s it. Those in charge control everything and if they want to collapse the banking system they will. End of.
If people can’t see things going down the tubes morally, ethically, environmentally etc thats their problem. Why do you think we have all these problems in the world today then? Is it because everyone is caring and considerate, or because most are trying to stitch others up for 30 pieces of silver? Wake up to reality before it is too late.
This has nothing to do with socialism. This is a put down used by those brinkered into the capitalist ideal of bettering oneself. In reality this is a lie to all but the lucky few. Why play a game where the odds are so staked against you? Haven’t people got any common sense?
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GST on food is a regressive tax. I think most people would have a problem with it on that basis. The complexities and costs of exempting it over here would, however, be horrendous. I agree with early postings that targeted income relief for those effected must be the way to go. That and more competition but you need to tell Senator Maclean that last one.
Given that lots of the old certainties are being re-examined and changed by governments in this secular level financial crisis, perhaps our government should do the same. In the UK, the Conservative party are saying they are not planning to reverse the increase in the top tax rate to 45% that Labour has announced. They’ve reasoned that everybody needs to do their bit in these difficult times. Ok “20% means 20%” has gone in this direction over here, but how about introducing a top rate here of say 25% on earnings over X ( you name the figure).
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“In reality this is a lie to all but the lucky few. Why play a game where the odds are so staked against you? Haven’t people got any common sense?”
Is this your way of saying that you are a loser?
Seriously, the big issue for me, and the one that G20 fudged, is how one reconciles economic growth with preserving the environment. The answer, obviously, is that you can’t, and people need to be refocus on achieving a better quality of life, rather than simply more possessions.
But that has nothing to do with the finance industry and anyone that is opposed to consumption should surely be opposed to GST. There is, after all, no tax on home grown veggies or fish you catch yourself. And the thrifty are rewarded at the expense of the profligate. Surely that’s a good thing?
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It’s all irrelevant as we will pretty soon be faced with hugh taxes. As soon as Brown and Obama outlaw our dirty tax system, our oh so great financial industry will be left in tatters, the only way our oligarchies will be able to afford to pay the sponging dossers and over paid States workers, will be to tax everyone and everything.
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Adrian,
I understand what you are trying to say as regard our 1(1)k residents however you are missing the point, they already pay more tax than most people, they applied to live here and we (Being Jersey) agreed a tax amount per annum, without that tax us mere mortals would have to pay more tax be it income or GST.
This may not be right, but we wanted them to come here (The government even employs someone to assist them in Nigel Philpott) so we can all benefit from their wealth. Yes its less than 20 means 20 but it has to be attractive to entice them here.
They are not a drain on society as they buy houses normal people can’t afford and quite often they give lots to charity. They spend a lot of their wealth on Island so local businesses benefit and the ones that have offices and businessses employ local people too so again Jersey wins.
You shouldn’t focus on just the tax receipts but the whole picture and the benefits as a whole.
I wonder how many people would be unemployed if 100 wealthy families left, how much spending would go elsewhere, how many charities would lose out?
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mad foetus from an earlier post by myself.
I cannot make it any simpler than this.
Capitalism = Consumerism = Unsustainability.
Finance oils the wheels of Capitalism.
(No mention of other negative issues with finance)
I am opposed to consumerism as it is environmentally unsound and a waste of money. I grow as much as I can and feed myself from the sea. These resources are free and GST free as well. Why waste money on rubbish imports causing huge carbon footprints to line someone else’s pockets? The whole system is a joke and if people can’t see it thats their problem. The government wastes money on useless items like brass trees etc whilst Joe Public pays for an MRI scanner. The elderly are left to die of cold in their houses so that the rich and the spongers can have a better life at the expense of the rest. Finance feeds consumerism and capitalism which kills the planet eventually. However yes in the mean time some people in Jersey and other such places get well more than they ever would in a real job. Good for them but at what cost? These are my honest views on things people can think what they like. This is reality as I see it.
You can make any assumptions about me you want. However I can assure you capitalism isn’t here for the plebs benefit.
Gary as per 1.1k’s I did not ask them here. I did not give them permission to pay very little tax in real terms. I would prefer a proper contribution to tax from them maybe more like £100M. If they are unhappy, or throw the dummy out of the pram, well they have the option to go elsewhere don’t they? As regards sueing maybe we should sue for GST then? All this talk of sueing is a joke, as we all know nothing stays the same and promises aren’t worth the paper they are written on are they?
These people drive up house prices with their open cheque book approach. This snowballs along the line to everyone else. They give money to charity so you say. Does it equal lost income tax? If not they are getting something no one else gets. Businesses employ staff for one reason only to profit from them. This is an unequal partnership as far as I am concerned. They therefore gain more than they give.
You look on the upside of having rich people however as we all know every coin has two sides.
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Adrian,
YOu really really hate successful people, I can’t believe how much you loathe people who have done well!
If we follow your thoughts through to conclusion you would shut all shops as they are only there to make a profit, get rid of all wealthy non local people (that our government invited here, who by the way we elected in, so take some responsibility man)
No one would work as we only go to work to make money and you consider that immoral! Adrian its 2009 not 1009, understand that we live and have always lived in a world based on trade, and people will always be either winners or losers in that trade, I am pleased that you can grow your own vegetables, however for many today its not even an option given the way we live and thehouses that are built.
I didn’t mention sueing anyone so not sure if that was mean’t for someone else!
and how does a wealthy immigrant buying a £5m house effect our house prices please let me know! Unless of course it would have been worth £4.5m and you were thinking about one!
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We are talking about 3%. 30p on a £100 shopping bill. Are ppl seriously saying this is a big deal?
I totally understand the huge increases imposed by the shops being unreasonable – but don’t think they will reduce their prices if the States were to take the 3% off. Prices would only come down by 3%. A good decision by the States in my view.
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Make that £3 on a £100 bill.
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OK adrian,
We elect you master of the world. using your ethics and morals we establish a world order.
you instruct us all to start to grow, fish or hunt our own food, forage for our firewood. have unprotected sex during the dark hours (nothing else to do, no electricity for computers).
There will be no evil finance industry, you will have outlawed barter in case someone profited by a carrot. You can tax us all a bag of firewood and a potatoes to keep you going because as the available land mass of the world will not be able to support such a civilisation you will be too busy killing off the surplus humanity to suply yourself.
Then of course I am sure you would be democratic and allow us a vote.
I don’t think you would last long Adrian, do you ?
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Gary I have already stated before the more sucessful a person becomes would mean a benefit in my type of society as they would pay more tax, not less like we have now. They would be willing to pay 20 means 20 and would have a sense of duty and care to others.
I equate this capitalist system to the following model for ease of explanation:-
Big black holes with many smaller black holes around them and then stars, planets, moons, space debris etc etc.
Most people are the debris swept up and controlled by others. Moons are a bit more successfull and less in numbers than the debris. Then planets are again more successfull but less in number than moons. Stars (less in number than the planets)are the high fliers striving to achieve and become a success. The small black holes are the very successfull ones making loads of money and finally the big black holes are the top of the pile.
So we have the debris being controlled by everything else, the moons controlled by the planets the stars controlling the planets, and the black holes controlling all the visible stuff.
What happens in this system? Well things go along nicely until some time in the future the small black holes start sucking in the visible stuff as it comes closer and closer to them. Eventually all visible stuff is consumed by said black holes until the biggest black hole wins by sucking everything else into it.
The is my analysis of capitalism. Eventually a winner takes all, everything else is destroyed in the race to make a profit. The aim is to sell stuff and make a profit however most is rubbish and ends up in landfills which then poison and pollute the planet making it uninhabitable for future generations of humans and and animals. However for a short time everyone appears to be good.
As per property prices. We all know supply dictates prices as does the ability to pay a given price. As Jersey has few properties compared to lots of people growing daily in numbers the price will go up. However Jersey has far more multimillionaire’s per square mile than most places on the planet. This means that they further exasibate the situation by paying more than they should for property as they CAN and do to get what they want.
This is how I see the whole system a big ponzi scheme guarenteed to destroy the planet in time. Others are free to participate in this destruction but should have the brains to be aware of what awaits them, or if they are lucky, their decendents in the future.
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PJG you have fallen into the capitalistic class trap of the master/slave relationship which we have at present. I am not the master of anyone or anything and neither would I want to be. I leave this to the megalomaniacs. As the Dead Kennedys quite nicely put it “you will work hard for a bowl of rice a day with a gun stuck in your back” This is what it is all about survival and exploitation nothing more.
I have said things as I see them. I believe a lack of correct morals and ethics leads down the slippery slope to massive problems ref the world economic situation as of present. I don’t think anyone can argue agaist this point.
What is wrong with as many as possible growing some veg? Even a flat with a with a small balcony can have veg grown on it. I would encourage this not only to help cut your bills, but because it is healthier to grow your own and it is environmentally a good thing to do. It also makes people more aware of reality in the real world. Neon wombs are all very well but they are virtual reality as far as I am concerned. People are becoming more and more divorced from nature this is very bad as it leads to excess and abuse.
Also as per fishing what is wrong with catching a few fresh fish to eat? You then learn about nature again. You have to kill and gut the fish which makes you more aware that a piece of meat doesn’t just magically appear in the butcher’s shop. You have been responsible for the consequences of your actions. You have caught, killed and gutted said animal. Buying one’s meat from a butcher is not taking responsibility for one’s own actions as far as I am concerned as you have got someone else to do the dirty work. This I believe shows a lack of respect to the animal that has died to feed you.
Yes there are ethical questions about eating animals maybe vegetarians are following the proper path?
As per the finance industry it is up to people to see the consequences of it. It is not all good and it is not all bad. However surely decisions should be made as to the correct way forward with all of this? Constantly changing laws to my mind means it can’t be totally ethical as change would not be required would it?
I have concerns on profit as it tends towards excess. Surely in an enlightened world all this would be done away with? What is wrong with people working for the collective good as opposed to oneself? Surely you must admit that one person only needs so much? How can one person need say a billion pounds? What is the point in said person having all this money when it will inevitably sit in a bank vault somewhere?
You have a valid point reference the population. This is where things went wrong as far as I am concerned. Once hunter gatherers gave way to the good old farmers we were locked in to the never ending cycle of trade. All this has done is enable the population levels to go above what they should be for sustainability, hence we are where we are. Malthus predicts all successful species end up outgrowing their available food supplies. We have only exasibated this situation by using intensive farming practices to enable a population boom to occur which has served the capitalist consumer society so well. More people equals more profit and more things etc etc.
This population bubble can only pop at some stage with the resultant chaos so generated as people strive to survive, taking all means to do so even if it means killing others to do so.
As per democratic this is a nice thing to aspire to, but we are still some way off. Can you really say any country in the world is truely democratic because I can’t. Even the good old USA goes in for extra-ordinary renditions in foreign countries to circumvent their own rules etc, etc. Not a good way to treat people is it? Especially if they are innocent.
You are right I wouldn’t get elected because the capitalists and their consumer driven supporters wouldn’t have it would they? They much prefer to carry on regardless and get every last penny out of the system before things collapse and worry about the resultant problems when they arise.
As per the money systems I think you will find that they are mostly imaginary and don’t even exist save as binary digits on banks computers’ somewhere. Yes this whole lot is a bit of a farce is it not? Lucky(almost)everyone thinks this is a good way to live.
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Adrian, you clearly have very strong views (as is your right) can I suggest that you run in the next elections, then if your ideas are widely accepted you would be voted in and could actually do something about the issues that you are so passionate about.
We all come on here and have our say but your views are by far the most aggressive and you should channel that aggression where it can be used as opposed to exchanging words with me and others
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Gary it is not aimed at you rest assured. It is just that I get sick and tired of the ways things are done over here. Those in need are ignored.
I see people with very little yet they then get subjected to another 3% because the government won’t get a grip and tax people properly. This is immoral as far as I am concerned and I can’t believe anyone in their right mind would condone this sort of behaviour.
Even taking the cap of off social security can’t be done as they don’t want to upset those with the most. Maybe when a few more of the elderly die from hypothermia someone might listen? However by then it will be too late for some won’t it?
As far as I am concerned anyone who supports the CoM doesn’t care about the needy. Sorry but there you go.
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