Disagreeing with someone does not mean a conspiracy
Thursday 16th April 2009, 3:00PM BST.
From Richard Farnham.
I WRITE in response to Nellie Maçon’s letter in the JEP of 11 April, in particular to her assertion that ‘they’ (whoever ‘they’ might be) tried ‘to silence me personally for opposing them at the Senatorial hustings’.
I attended two Senatorial hustings last autumn, the first in Trinity and the second in St Helier. In the Town Hall I was unfortunate enough to find myself in the row behind Mrs Maçon, who constantly shouted down and interrupted the sitting Senatorial candidates.
How ironic that someone who purports to have been the subject of attempts to silence her would behave like this in a forum where every candidate has the equal right to be heard.
Asking my friend who this very vocal woman was, I was told that she was the mother of one of the candidates and that this had generally been her behaviour throughout the hustings.
After further outbursts from Mrs Macon, I leant across and said: ‘Excuse me, please be quiet. We don’t heckle your son, please don’t heckle the other candidates.’
At the end of the evening Mrs Maçon marched up, not to me but to my friend and shouted at her, including the line: ‘I will not be bullied by you. Don’t you dare speak to me like that again.’
In her letter, Mrs Macon states: ‘As a rule I never give in to bullies’, which seems to suggest that she feels she has, on more than one occasion, been the subject of bullying. Her shockingly aggressive bullying of my friend at the hustings reminded me that, on occasion, those who claim to be the subject of bullying are actually the perpetrators.
Which leads me on to Senator Syvret. Mrs Maçon suggests that Senator Syvret has ‘the courage to voice opinions contrary to prominent States Members and those in the higher echelons of society’. Mrs Maçon must have a seriously warped idea of the concept of courage.
On an entry on his blog last week, Senator Syvret said: ‘Come to sunny Jersey! The North Korea of the English Channel.’
Amnesty International refers to North Korea as one of the world’s most brutal states where death camps, forced labour, torture, starvation, rape, murder and capital punishment (sometimes for the most trivial of crimes) are commonplace. It is truly wicked that an educated person, especially a member of the States of Jersey, should liken Jersey to North Korea.
Senator Syvret’s entries on his blog are consistently histrionic and self-righteous. They are also incredibly rude, ignorant and disrespectful of anyone who doesn’t agree with him.
His rantings, both in content and tone, suggest that he firmly believes himself to be better advised and more intelligent than anyone else. In his own mind, is he so supremely brilliant that his purported sidelining in the States must be the result of a conspiracy comprising anyone and everyone ‘in authority’?
Thank goodness those ‘prominent States Members’ (also duly elected by the people of Jersey) think and behave differently.
The good news for the vast majority of us Jersey folk is that history proves that no injustice lasts for ever. Senator Syvret’s cruel behaviour will eventually end, at least in the States. I find it heartening to hear that some voters who helped to elect him in 2005 say they will not do so again.
Our behaviour, in particular how we treat others, has consequences. The Senator’s behaviour, to use one of his quotes, is consigning him ‘to the dustbin of history’, where he firmly belongs.
Mrs Macon and Senator Syvret, just because some disagree with their aggressive tactics, must not assume that there is a conspiracy against them. Perhaps they are simply wrong.
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Confronting lies, deceit and the distortion of the facts is not aggression – it’s standing up for the truth and does take a lot of courage.
As for Senator Syvret’s arrest – I don’t necessarily always agree with what Senator Syvret says, however no-one in their right mind can condone a police search of someone’s property without a legal search warrant and how you can believe this is democratic is beyond me.
Unfortunately injustice lasts too long when you’re on the reciving end but perhaps in 3 years we might be a few steps closer to stamping some of it out. There was certainly a lot of disappointment at the results of the last senatorial elections so there’s hope yet.
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This letter speaks for a lot of people.
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Agreed Nellie Macon, I was going to write a response to today’s letter but I decided against it, since I’ve written about three letters to the JEP in the last three weeks.I think it would be too much for the irrational people to bear.
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James (2), indeed it does.
And whilst on the subject of ineffective politicians, can someone please tell me what Mrs Macon’s son, I can’t even remember his name right now he has been so anonymous, has done since being elected.
…Aside the embarrassing episode with his mother’s email of course.
Not sure he is worth 40 odd grand of my hard earned cash.
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100% accurate. These so called “do-gooders” do nothing. The sooner Syvret is out the better. He does nothing constructive for the people of Jersey and how some people can follow him truely beggars belief.
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In responce to Big Bean. I think his name is Jerry but it is his mother who seems to pulling his strings so Puppet would be more appropriate. As for her comments regarding silly syvrets arrest, let the authorities get on with their job and when all facts are know then one can judge if procedures were followed rather than start up all this propaganda that syvret has done in the past.Try to be a little more prudent dear !
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Nellie Macon – i don’t see where the writer said anything about Senator Syvret’s arrest. Anyway, on his blog it says he was asked to attend at the police station for an interview, only for his response to the police to be ‘You’ll never take me alive copper!’. So the Police should have done us all a favour last week and given him two hours notice that they were coming for him.
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Nellie – as I’ve stated before on this website you appear to be under the misapprehension that the majority of Islanders are unhappy with last year’s election results despite the fact that the successful candidates were democratically elected by the majority of voters!
Granted, in some districts candidates (e.g. your son) only got in with 24% of votes cast which is hardly a ringing endorsement but I accept that they were still democratically elected.
Do not fool yourself into thinking that if voter turnout was higher the results would be any different. I work in a small office with 5 other people and prior to the elections we all had the same thoughts on who were the best candidates. For one reason or another I was the only one who voted, despite this 5 of the 6 senatorial candidates I voted for were successful. Had the others in my office voted there would have been even more votes cast for the 5 successful candidates.
Richard Farnham – best letter I have read in a long time. Agree almost 100% – my only quibble would be your reference to Syvret as an ‘educated person’ (I believe he left school at 15 to become a chippie) but I’m splitting hairs!
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I attended a couple of hustings and Mrs Macon was constantly heckling candidates through both.
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Lets hope that this is now a turn in the right direction. The minority have been heard of late lately and it is obvious that the majority do not agree with their approach to running this Island.
They are simply not clever enough. Stuart Syvret will by then be forgotton.
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I agree with Richard Farnham, this is the opinon of the majority of people I speak to. Stuart Syvret has done nothing for the reputation of Jersey apart from drag it through the mud for his own self political gain.
I dont think Nelie relises but she is damaging the reputation of her own son by speaking out in such an aggressive manner or even just opening her mouth. If she truly wants to support him then maybe she should let him do all the talking and gain respect from his own achievements. I was not pleased to hear that Deputy Macon was elected but only time will tell if he was worth the voters time.
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Finally some one talking sense! Excellent letter!
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Deputy Macon is a decent chap.
His mother is destroying his career before it has even started.
She should keep her mouth shut in future.
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Having followed ALL of the hustings very closely I am fully aware of Mrs Macon’s behaviour throughout the hustings. The constant sniggering and barracking made during speeches of the candidates that she did not like was quite disgusting. Although I did not vote for Mike Vibert, witnessing Mrs Macon’s rude behaviour at what should be a proffesional event was very disturbing. And of course, nobody dare question the ability of her golden boy.
Deputy Macon was, despite his mothers claims, a puppet. Well pointed out Kate. For example, the speach at St Peters hustings was written by his mother – and before the JEP cut my comment in case of slander, I promise this information came straight from Deputy Macon’s mouth. One of the few things during the hustings it would appear actually did!
I would like to thank Mr Farnham for his letter, which is accurate, honest and well written. I am glad to see that I am not at all alone in my opinions of the Macon’s.
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Spot on Mr Farnham, whilst I have sympathy for the paranoid, I do hope that Senator Syvret at least does not seek re-election. He is not the first overtly aggressive politician in recent years to lose the plot after playing the role of injured arbiter of all that is good, whilst obstructing the work of the other, more serious, elected.
Mrs Macon is probably harmless enough. She is not the first, and certainly won’t be the last, domineering mother of an ineffective son.
Sorry to be so unkind, but our government is a serious matter and we should not permit a few loose canons to damage our States’ reputation.
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We have to realise that nowadays recieved behaviour is learned from soap operas and reality TV shows.
Eventually the majority of people will be badly behaved.
Then, logically, they will wish to be represented by those they feel allied to.
I had great hopes for a new order in Jersey.
They were always going to have a struggle, just as Norman Le Brocq did, with the media likely to be pro establishment.
All these own goals must be a great disappointment to voters who were hoping to wave goodbye to the old guard.
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God bless you all! Finally a thread where I agree with the majority! Let’s stand up to the vocal, but totally witless, troublemakers!
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I read Syvret’s blog tonight and this letter writer has got his persona spot on. Some other internet forums are being more open now which is good. The followers of this rubbish do nothing for the Island and its time people started to see them for what they really are.
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How can Stuart Syvret compare North Korea with Jersey on an open blog on the Net and claim he is doing things in the best interest of the Island? Is this work really worth £43,000.00 a year of tax payers money?
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Re: “It is truly wicked that an educated person, especially a member of the States of Jersey, should liken Jersey to North Korea.”
You are ignoring the context and interpreting his rhetoric literally. Do you think that he is also suggesting that the people of Jersey are of Asiatic stock and eat dogs?
No – it was an angry, hyperbolic headline on his blog pointing out that the way in which he was arrested and detained without a warrant was redolent of a dictatorship, which is a fair and valid point.
To call his rhetoric wicked while failing to recognise the wickedness he was subject to is slightly bizarre.
I also don’t like the way in which Senator Syvret sometimes indiscriminately disparages other States members as a group, and I wince at some of his abusive language, but I separate that from the content of his invective, which is typically well-evidenced, just, and rational.
His main contention seems to be that Jersey would benefit from more open, accountable government and institutions, which would improve its reputation with the outside world.
Which do you think is most likely to damage Jersey’s reputation abroad? A blog headline likening it to Korea, or its police force arresting and detaining the island’s senior politician without a warrant, accessing his constituents’ correspondence (which should be protected by parliamentary privilege), taking his private possessions without providing an inventory, and then nobody in the island’s judiciary or police commenting other than to say ‘a male, 43, has been arrested’?
Are you not annoyed that his arrest made the UK daily newspapers and was reported around the world?
Senator Syvret has been right about many things over the years, but he has been frustrated and sat-upon by what he refers to as ‘the oligarchy’. Remember the scientific report he commissioned into the dumping of toxic ash at the reclamation site? The ex-Senator Don Filleul commented: “Oh, that was always just a scare put about by Stuart Syvret. It was just something he was making political capital out of.”
Really?
I guess 18 years in opposition, being derided by your more powerful opponents and suspended from the house for speaking the truth would be enough to curdle anyone’s spirits and provoke them to anger.
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well done Mr Farnham a superbly well written letter and one that finally speaks for the majority
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jezza gag your mum she is doing you no favours
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Well said Rob Kent.
More balanced and fair in your summary than the regular gang of Syvret haters on here who appear to suffer from the very affliction with which they claim Syvret suffers.
In their view, Syvret sees conspiracies and cover-ups in every corner, likewise, whatever Syvret says or does is automatically considered wrong simply because it is Syvret.
Is paranoia contagious?
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Oh Rob Kent………..PLEASE! Of course Mr Farnham interpreted his rhetoric literally because that is what Senator Syvret said!
Jersey is not a Police State and justice will prevail. The ins and outs of his arrest, why it happened etc will all be made available in due course. Senator Syvret is the architect of all that is starting to happen to him now. He is abusive, aggressive, ignorant and petulant. The fact that he has achieved very little to date is a sad indicator of his intelligence, common sense and abilities….including the (lack of) ability of getting on with people and swaying opinions. Sorry Rob Kent, you are in the minority here. Middle Jersey is at long last starting to speak.
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Rob Kent
How extremely perceptive you are, and how accurately you have explained things, you would think any fool could understand the situation, but, perhaps not, I agree with you completely, but then we might as well be speaking a different language to the ‘Others’
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So heartening to read Mr Farnham’s letter which has the inadequacies of the Macons and SS summed up so succinctly. The many responses in support certainly suggest a turning tide; one that should before long wash away all the stuff and nonsense being done to ruin the international reputation of our island by these distasteful, ill informed and at at times, certainly in respect of SS wholly inaccurate propaganda merchants!
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Personally I think the SSS supporters have only one intention of bringing this Island down. But fear not, they won’t win and are outnumbered and the decent Islanders will stick together and win very soon!
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Re “Jersey is not a Police State and justice will prevail.” (Betty, 24)
Well, we all know that Jersey is not a ‘Police State’ but that doesn’t mean either that justice will prevail nor that the police won’t act unlawfully.
Miscarriages of justice, police corruption, and judicial cover-ups happen in otherwise well-run, democratic states (such as the US, UK and just about every other democracy).
That is why everybody needs to be vigilant, not just civil liberty organisations, such as Liberty, but opposition politicians and citizens.
I’m sorry, but I definitely do not share your blind faith in the benevolence of power. Everyone knows the truism ‘power corrupts’. Fallible human beings are corruptible, which is why you need checks and constraints on them when they get power.
It’s a shame that this whole debate has become tied up with the persona of Stuart Syvret. To listen to his critics, you could be forgiven for thinking that if he disappeared, everything would be wonderful and rosy in the garden of Jersey: no Waterfront, no incinerator overspend, no HdlG inquiry, no toxic ash leaching out, no anything else that might be embarrassing to the island.
It’s a nice fantasy, but untrue. Now that we have a collection of Jersey blogs saying pretty much the same thing as Syvret’s, what are you going to do – get rid of all of them?
And, as one contributor above pointed out, Syvret’s blog is polite compared to the right-wing ones in America.
Do you really believe, honestly, that ‘the ins and outs of his arrest, why it happened etc will all be made available in due course’? Do you really really believe that, because I don’t.
Look at it this way – Syvret’s arrest itself was cloaked in secrecy. The police didn’t comment on the day but then complained that people and the JEP were speculating. The AG says he didn’t ‘instigate it’ but do you believe he didn’t know?
But I am at one with you in hoping it does come out and it does go to court. Because one thing that interests me about Syvret’s blog is that he has gone public with accusations of serious criminal behaviour against a number of named individuals, many of whom are still working in their jobs in Jersey.
And, curiously, not one of them has either factually rebutted or legally challenged the information still available on his blog.
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There is a lot wrong with Jersey but unfortunately whilst we have SS and the other witless politicians chasing conspiracies that don’t exist these will never be resolved. At the last election with so many of what were considered to be the old establishment gone I though we might see some change. We have certainly seen that. We now have politicians who consider themselves above the Law and use the States chamber to circumvent the courts. They have no apparent loyalty to the Island or its people, actively trying to sabotage and close down our principle industry with no regard for the resulting hardship this will cause. They call themselves democracy but cannot accept a democratic decision and use spin to try to justify their actions. They criticise from the sidelines but offer nothing constructive to replace what they seek to sabotage and destroy.
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Rob Kent
You should know it is virtually impossible to prove the non existence of something.
You basically have faith in everything Syvret says yet we have no actual proof worthy of a court of law just supposition and hearsay.
Syvret has concerns over ash however then wants to build a park on land which probably has pollution because of the previous town gas production there.
Amongst the polluatants are heavy metals and ferrocyanides.
The cost of the clean up is unknown but watch the costs escalate!
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Re Ade, “You basically have faith in everything Syvret says yet we have no actual proof worthy of a court of law just supposition and hearsay.”
Actually I don’t have faith in anything anyone says, let alone Stuart Syvret. I don’t take anything he says on faith, and I personally have no evidence for or against the allegations and criticisms he makes – that’s his job.
But you are reinforcing his own criticism: that too many things never arrive in court to be considered on their evidence. He has stated several times that he is perfectly happy to defend everything he says in court and that he has the evidence to back it up.
It’s just weird that no-one has taken him up on that. It’s also strange that the authorities in Jersey – who presumably pay PR people – never come out with a reasonable explanation as to why they took the decisions they did (cf his recent publication of the police report into mysterious hospital deaths).
He may be wrong, he may be right. But to ignore everything he says because you don’t like him or the way he says it is sort of ignoring the point, because you then have to start doing the same for other people who say the same thing, like Lenny Harper.
When people who are on the inside of the story and are privy to the evidence make statements like that, it is a lot more powerful than when no-nothings like you and me make it on some ‘speak your brains’ site.
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Rob Kent – I really do believe that the ins and outs of his arrest will be made available in due course. And i really do believe the AG didn’t know the date and time of SS’s ‘arrest’ in advance. Don’t forget Senator Syvret is the man who e-mailed the Police to say ‘You’ll never take me alive copper”. I mean, honestly, what does he expect after saying that??? And going back to the North Korea comment….Senator Syvret is a politician, it is unforgivable that he said that, even in ‘anger’. And who cares if his blog is polite compared to right wing ones in America……..he is a politician, and he should know and act better. But he doesn’t. He is on the way down and out, we’ve reached a tipping point now. And Linda – what do you mean ‘any fool’??? Careful, don’t become the biggest fool.
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Well said Rob Kent – Mr Farnham’s companion threatened me with “Remember what we’ll do to your son!” – I believe my reply was very well controlled in the circumstances – most mothers would have given her a real mouthful – if not worse!
Also, as we had no opportunity to contest candidate’s statements directly at the hustings – how are the public to protest at complete untruths?
As for writing Jeremy’s speeches – there is a big difference between “typing” them and compiling them – please get your facts right!
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40 grand is too much for a 21 year old puppet, this letter speaks for many reasonable people who understand that those living here are very lucky indeed. Perhap if Nellie is so convinced that the property search was illegal she should take it up legally, or maybe, like most other outbursts, what she is saying is not based on fact.
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Betty,
Don’t you worry about me becoming the biggest fool for wanting investigations done into child abuse, corporate manslaughter, illegal justice systems, cover ups and lies etc. I’d rather be the fool for that, than the fool who was a party to all that and perpetuated its continuation.
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Linda – i agree with you very much re ‘corporate manslaughter’. Yes, Senator Syvret is correct there, i hope that is the end ‘result’ and i hope justice is done for the O’Rourke family. I’m afraid i don’t know enough about Haut de la Garenne/child abuse to comment and i don’t know what you mean by illegal justice systems. Your original comment (25) was very much a la Syvret ie all those who don’t agree with you are fools. Very unhelpful language.
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“I really do believe that the ins and outs of his arrest will be made available in due course. And i really do believe the AG didn’t know the date and time of SS’s ‘arrest’ in advance.”
I am interested in what makes you believe this Betty? Evidence, faith or simply because you want to?
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I would just like assurance that this is not going to set a precendent, therefore in the interests of our civil liberties I look forward to a proper invstigation of this matter. If this search (sans warrant) is legal, then we need to ensure it becomes illegal and pronto!
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Nioleux – the answer is faith. I’ve never met the AG in my life, i don’t know any Police officers, but i have faith, especially here in Jersey, that the truth will out in the end. And i don’t believe for one minute that the AG would lie when he says he knew nothing about it.
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Nellie 38
Its bleeding heart do gooders banging on about excessive civil liberties and human rights that allow child abusers and others guilty criminals to go free. What about the civil liberties and human rights of the victims, the law is already tilted in the direction of the law breaker. there are enough safeguards to protect the guilty.
PPaCE is fair , read it.
Give the police credit, they are not a corrupt bunch of thugs waiting in the bushes to beat up passing politicians, they actually care about the community. If your little boy were a victim of abuse would you go to SS or would you call the police.
If you don’t give the police the tools to do the job the only people who will be in jail are those who have been caught literally with their trousers down.
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I completely agree with this letter. At the moment we appear to have this group of eight politicians who are aiming to cause maximum disruption to the smooth running of the island. Personally, I hope that this group is reduced at the next elections, not increased. Otherwise, Jersey could have serious problems.
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I have read the PPCE law. Very badly drafted law, particularly the bit relevant to this debate.
I wonder if you would feel the same PJG if it was used on you.
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Betty,
So, you agree with the ‘corporate manslaughter’ bit, well that’s a start, however, how the ‘independant investigation’ which I quote ‘has NO disciplinary remit and will NOT consider the acts and omissions of individuals’ (capitals are mine) will fare in bringing anyone to justice, is beyond me.
With regard to Haut De La Garenne, do you really believe that 160 people would make up out of thin air, the accusations that they had been abused whilst there?
With regard to illegal justice systems, do you really believe that it should be on the say so of ONE man, as to whether or not a serious crime with Police evidence to prosecute, should be dropped?
If you have any doubt with regards to these questions, you owe it to yourself, and the Island as a whole to investigate, or at least to have an open mind regarding the things Stuart Syvret is questioning on our behalf.
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Hey there Nellie have you ever heard of the word confidentially. There is a lot going on by the professionals who wouldn’t dream of consulting in you before the job is done. When the truth comes out you like the rest of us will know. The police know what they are doing.
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Re Betty “i have faith, especially here in Jersey, that the truth will out in the end. And i don’t believe for one minute that the AG would lie when he says he knew nothing about it.”
Betty, your faith is touching. If only politicians and the police were faithful to believers like you, the world wouldn’t need critics like me.
Did you see the police kill an innocent man at the G20 demonstration and then lie about it? Did you hear that they killed another innocent man, Jean Charles de Menezes, on the underground, and then lied about it?
Your senior police are recruited from the UK. In Jersey you have less constraints on the law than there are in the UK, so why do you believe they are any more ethical or moral? Just because they are in Jersey?
There are many aspects of the Jersey political system (along with the nepotism inherent in all small, closed communities) that are more likely to give rise to corruption and cover-ups.
Although Senator Syvret’s arrest was an outrageous abuse of police power – seemingly designed to intimidate him, and possibly to get access to his private data – it will be a very good thing if it comes to court, especially if it reaches a higher court in the UK.
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Nioleux 42
If it were used on me and I were guilty, I could complain bitterly in an attempt to get off on a technicality.
If I were innocent, so what, I would not be charged, and I would have helped the police in their enquiries.
I am prepared to sacrifice some of my perceived “umam rites” if it helps stop this abuse.
Who would you go to if your child was abused ?
Would you like them to be investigating with one hand tied behind their back, because someone’s feelings may be hurt.
We must all do our bit to stop crime, sometimes it may be inconvenient.
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PJG 46
I am very surprised to hear that you, as an innocent person, would be happy for the police to walk into your house uninvited and without a warrant, delve into all your personal belongings, take away whatever they saw fit, fail to provide you with a list of what they had taken and refuse to give you a date on which they would return them.
Would you also view it as an inconvenience for the police to beat you up to try to get a confession from you, despite your innocence? Helping with enquiries?
This is not, as you put it, about someone’s feelings being hurt here. It is not even about Syvret. This is about the protection of your fundamental human right not to have the State interfere with your privacy unless the law specifically and reasonably permits.
I agree that the police should have the relevant tools to enable them to operate effectively but those tools should only be used reasonably and lawfully.
Ironically, in this case, the police did have the relevant tools to search. It simply required a police officer to pop in to see a judge and obtain a warrant.
Why they did not bother to get one is a big question that I hope we get an answer to.
The PPCE Law, in my opinion, is not a ‘tool’ for the police to use to circumvent other laws which provide specific search powers.
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Seriously people, SS is the best person for this to have happened to. If the police have in any way done anything wrong he is the one person who will ensure that it is brought to light. This will allow us all to see the unlawful arrest for what it is and the whole legal process that was used in his “unlawful” arrest will need to be restructured.
However……
If the police have done their job properly, kept a list of items they have taken (standard procedure?), taken photo’s of the property before and after the search (standard procedure?) and dotted all the i’s and crossed all the t’s then SS will not be successful in suing them as he has stated he will. If this is the case we will see that SS is nothing but a whining trouble maker who will cry conspiracy to cover his own errors.
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Nioleux 47
What a load of hysterics being voiced here.
SS broke the law as far as Data Protection is concerned, Fact. That’s obvious to anyone who reads his daily blurt.
He was arrested for that! Prior to the arrest he made some pretty suspect statements “you will never take me alive copper”, also he has an obvious persecution complex, again read his blog. By these acts he has bought his sanity into question, If the police ignored this and SS had slit his wrists I have no doubt you would be chastising them for not using art 29.
Also he has publicly stated he has more information that he will drip feed to the media. More innocent people will to vilified and named. What is he Judge jury and executioner. He has no thought for the human rights of those he exposes?”( they have not been to court yet and we still work to a system where one is innocent until proved guilty).
His grasp of right and wrong is seriously lacking, he makes laws for others but thinks he is above them.PPaCE was enacted in part by him.
The police no doubt searched his home and him in an attempt to prevent more innocent people being named . To prevent more investigations being ruined by his inept unlawful publications.
You say,
Would you also view it as an inconvenience for the police to beat you up to try to get a confession from you, despite your innocence? Helping with enquiries?
Er,, where is this allowed for by PPaCE ? I must have missed that bit.
PPaCE does not allow police to walk into my house on a whim. They have to have a reasonable belief that I have committed an offence, enough of a belief to arrest me at least. a reasonable belief that will be upheld in court or the evidence they find will be non permissible. This search may also turn up evidence that will prove my innocence, why should I disapprove unless I have something to hide.
What we need is a balance between the protection of the individual human rights of the innocent, that cannot be used as a shield by the guilty.
In my opinion PPaCE fits the bill pretty close.
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Michael 48
Well said, I agree completely.
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Nioleux 47 – spot on. The police had 10 days in which to obtain a search warrant – the question is, why didn’t they?
We really have to be careful with precedents being set which can then be used against innocent people.
Do you know everyone that enters your home? What if one of these is a potential criminal and the police decide to pounce on him as he leaves your property? Can the police then enter your home, ransack it and take away what they want without a search warrrant? Surely you can’t be happy with this prospect? This is the precedent that is being set here.
The tried and tested issuing of a search warrant imposed checks and restraints on any possible abuses of searches of private property and quite rightly so. Forget about Senator Syvret for a moment and just consider this happening to you and your family and you might feel quite differently.
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PJG, amidst your rant and multitudinous assumptions and presumptions, bought on no doubt by your obvious dislike of a certain person, you have sadly missed the entire point of my post.
The law provides powers, (including the power to use reasonable force – hence my reference to potential for abuse of that power) These powers must be used appropriately, lawfully and reasonably.
This question is not about the content of the Senator’s blog, but whether the police are using their powers properly or somehow abusing them.
It is not at all helpful to personalise the wider issue so as to avoid dealing with it.
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All you people banging about PPCE do you not realised it was merely codification of common law and the police could have acted in this way previously.
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Not so Ade.
Under the common law, where statute provided a power of search by application for the grant of a warrant to do so, the provisions of the statute must be adhered to.
This means that if the arrest was for a Data Protection offence, the statutory provision requiring a warrant would take precedent over any common law provisions.
In short, the police could not have acted in this way previously.
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Nioleux
Try reading what I posted instead of putting your own spin.
I said PPCE was codification of previous common law and the right to search of residence after arrest has alwways been allowed
I am not so presumptious to assume that the only cause of action was under the DP Law
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The power for police to search without a warrant, and confiscate, under Data Protection law, is unacceptable in almost all first world countries and most of the others as well. Those countries where it is acceptable would include China, Iran, Burma, North Korea, and Jersey.
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I too, sat two rows behind Nellie in one of the country hustings. I found her rude, obnoxious and totally without regard for people wanting to put their points across.
If Nellie has such an interest in free speech, then perhaps she should sit further back and save the sighs, groans and catcalls for home!
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I note that the original poster seems to have gatecrashed the St Helier senatorial husting despite polite requests that people attended hustings in their own parish – something that he himself already had done. Unabashed at his rudeness, he then tried to influence the manner in which the meeting was conducted. As a St Helier voter who attended the meeting I did heckle, mainly when we were told that Jersey was immune to the recession, and that the Harcourt deal was fair and above board. My reactions and those of most of the audience were spontaneous and sincere. The meeting was well handled by the Connetable and never became unruly. To me, that was democracy working fairly.
Where unfairness came into play was the distribution of the hustings, for with their great media coverage they probably had considerable influence on how people voted. Trinity for example has 3% of the population and had its own husting, St Helier has 30% of the population and had one, at which I suspect there were many interlopers who arrived determined to influence the conduct of the meeting. They clapped enthusiatically for some candidates and heckled their hecklers. All these biases I expect had a significant impact on the outcome of the elections. If Jersey wishes for a proper representative democracy in future such unfair influences should be removed from the election.
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Gary. Can I assume from your last post(56) that you have been to China, Iran, Burma and North Korea?
I have been to 3 of the 4, and I can assure you that there are no comparisons between those countries and Jersey, and anyone who truly believes that there are is living in a fantasy world.
I’d be interested in hearing about your experiences in these countries for you to arrive at your conclusion.
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Nioleux
You asked “whether the police are using their powers properly or somehow abusing them”.
I tried to give you my opinion that they were not by using the SS event as an example, If you read the letter that started this thread, quite a legitimate example I thought, Probably not welcome by SS disciples, to which you obviously concur, but quite relevant to this discussion.
My last sentence surely sums up my opinion. I will reproduce it for your benefit
What we need is a balance between the protection of the individual human rights of the innocent, that cannot be used as a shield by the guilty.
Its my opinion that PPaCE achieves this reasonably well.
Its only my opinion, I respect your right to disagree.
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Sorry Ade I disagree.
Had you merely remarked that the police previously had a power to search on arrest under the common law I would have agreed with you.
However, you made it case specific when you posted ‘the police could have acted in this way previously.’ They could not have in this case.
Stautory provisions would have overridden the common law. That is not spin, that is fact.
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Dec – i have no scientific evidence for this, but my own feeling is that heckling is linked to IQ levels……..those with lower IQ levels shout the loudest. They are incapable of swaying arguments or being heard any other way. There is no place for heckling in a democracy.
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Fully support Richard Farnham’s letter. Well said!
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Great letter Mr Farnham. You’ve summed up may people’s feelings towards the like od SS and Mrs Macon.
SS is supposed to act in the best interests of Jersey as a whole.
Syvret’s rants (whether or not they should be taken literally) are clearly inaccurate and damaging. To compare Jersey to North Korea is ridiculous and massively out of proportion however you look at it. Such an unjustified exageration can only be damaging to Jersey.
Just because SS says he has the evidence to back up his claims (whether that be in relation to his arrest or his other consipracy theories), doesn’t mean its true.
Syvret has never once published his “evidence”. Why not? If he were as righteous as some people on here suggest, surely he would publish the “evidence” regardless of the consequences?
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As a non-Jerseyman (but fellow Channel Islander) I have to point out how damaging these incidents are to the perception of Jersey. I speak regularly with people in other jurisdictions during the course of my working day, and it’s incredible how many of them make reference to the Haut de la Garenne/Stuart Syvret/Jersey system issues. I have to say that the vast majority sympathise with SS and believe that the political/legal system is deeply flawed.
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I’ve had an unbelievable response to this letter -letters and phone calls etc,every single one being in full support. Thanks also to everyone who has commented on this thread. Two personal replies if i may
Nellie Macon – I was with my companion the whole evening and i did not hear her say “Remember what we’ll do to your son!”. I also do not know for what reason she would have said that. I’ll ask her next time i see her. Are you sure you have the right person?
Dec – i did not try to ‘influence the manner the meeting was conducted’ at all. I went along to the meeting to LISTEN to what the candidates had to say. Re ‘interlopers’, my estimate was that between 30%-35% of the Trinity audience were from outside the Parish. There were two candidates in particular i wanted to question (and could not get around to doing so in Trinity), so i went to the Town Hall hustings as my job is St Helier based and brings me into contact with the residents of the Parish, so i do have a ‘link’ with the Parish. Interestingly, i chatted to several JDA members at the Town Hall, and two of them said they had been to every single hustings meeting and had enjoyed every minute! But i don’t think these ‘interlopers’ as you call them did influence the outcome of the hustings or the elections,as the vast majority of voters i know did not attend any hustings meetings. I entirely agree with you, though, regarding the hustings set up in St Helier: yes, why can’t there be a Senatorial hustings in each St Helier district? Let’s hope that happens in 2011
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Actually, Big Bean, I travelled in Iran during the Shah days, and again since. I have also spent several months in China, including three in Tibet, and I have visited Burma. I don’t believe that any of us travelling Beans will have managed to get into North Korea.
The point that I am making, as is Senator Syvret, is that on this matter, where such unlimited powers would appear to have been given to the police, Jersey does indeed fall into line with those States.
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Re North Korea / Jersey.
Having just read the actual article posted on Syvret’s blog which draws a comparison between the two jurisdictions I believe that it is only fair to point out (as there seems to be an awful lot of hyberbole surrounding this) that the comparison is limited to his belief that the Jersey authorities were trying to hack into, corrupt or by some other method, bring down his blog.
It really goes no further than that.
As it is not beyond the pale to suggest that internet censorship of this type is common in North Korea, I can see why he drew that comparison.
Perhaps some people on this forum are shooting off because it is convenient to attack the man rather than consider what he was trying to say.
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Free speech is bilateral. Richard Farnham’s letter may be labored but his course is true.
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Welcome to the Jungle,
there is an old tale that he who shouts loudest at the market sells the most. Whereas he who sits back and says nothing sells little.
Are you suggesting that rather than SS shouting he should sit back and wait for the truth to be exposed all by itself?
Are you aware of Freedom of Speech?
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Gary, thank you for your post. I would have thought that someone who has travelled as extensively as you would have known better, unless of course there are people who have been imprisoned, executed and/or tortured in Jersey that I am not aware of.
Comparing someone who has been arrested and had his house searched because he has broken the law to the attrocities that take place everyday in other countries is quite frankly ridiculous.
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Gary
Are you seriously sugesting the SoJ Police have “unlimited powers” similar to North Korean police.
Now if you were comparing NK powers to those of Jersey Customs and Excise I may stretch as far as not laughing, but the powers of our police, sorry I just fell over.
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Big Bean, it may not be convenient for you to take notice of other posts but I would urge you to read post 67, or better still, read the relevant blog entry.
The Jersey/Korean comparison was limited to the Senator’s belief that the state was attemting to censor his blog. Nothing more.
There was no reference in the actual blog posting to local authorities executing and/or torturing people in Jersey – although I have to admit that I do know of people being imprisoned here.
The dramatics and exaggerations are a little boring now.
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Mr Farnham, you were standing right next to her. She was referring to her companion on the other side’s threats to myself and my family at the previous hustings. Why don’t you ask her to reply under her own name on this website and clear up this matter?
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As for selective memory Mr Farnham – you were sitting right across the aisle from me so I didn’t have to “march” anywhere to hear your companion’s threats – all I did was stand up and she let fly!
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Jerseyman/boyatheart – what about those who are the rudest, most disrespectful and aggressive at the marketplace, what happens to them? No-one buys their produce, they upset everyone and ultimately leave the market, that’s what happens to them!
And Big Bean – i LOVE your posts, you clever and honest little thing, you.
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So, am I understanding? Jersey hustings should be conducted like North Korean political meetings.
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Excellent letter Richard !
Vive La Tourelle !
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Big Bean, if you have spoken with any persons opposing the State in which they live, you should know that one of the most important tools of any oppressive government is its State Police. I can assure you that those people that I have spoken to could not agree with you, a Police that seems to answer to its political masters and not to its people is a very intimidating and dangerous beast.
We might not execute our political enemies in Jersey, but how can we condone the persecution and bullying of them if we want to be accepted as part of the free world?
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I don’t think the Police had a lot of options. Senator Syvret openly published the fact that he intended to commit an offence and publish the confidential reports he had taken before challenging the Police to arrest him. If only two officers had attended and he had carried out his threat that they would not take him alive then those now criticising this aspect would be asking why more officers had not attended. I agree that I would not like the Police turning up, arresting me and searching my home but lets face it this whole event was orchestrated as a publicity stunt and should therefore be treated as such.
As for the references to Zimbabwe this is an insult to those who really do get tortured and killed for their beliefs and Senator Syvret should be made to apologise for such remarks.
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I cant be bothered to quote different comments but I would like to add that i find it strange how when one minster breaks the data protection act nothing happens but then when SS does its all guns blazing. I for one, put a note on his blog saying how i thought it disgraceful that he should name someone, and i still do, but i am beginning to understand why as it has brought into the spotlight why good ole TLM can breach data protection and get away with it but the one outspoken critic of the states of jersey cannot.
And with regards to having faith in the police well i am sorry but if i were religious i would have faith in god, buddah, allah etc but from what i have heard in the past and in the last few years plus the mail on sundays Lenny interview. I most certainly do not have faith in the police, or to be more to the point, i have faith in the police doing their duty but not the judiciary carrying out prosecutions. Expecially when not in the publics/states brotherhoods interests.
And finaly in my rant, regarding communist countries, i have been to a few and apart from a nice flag their methods of bringing their country to their way of thinking beggars belief. Would reccomend the killing fields by Dith Pran if anyone wants an idea of the lengths they will go to.
However, I think SS may have been simply referring to the Jersey Way in that if you dissagree then life will be made difficult for you over the course of a politicians time in office.
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Mrs Macon, you really should try to bite your tongue a tad more often. Your behaviour does nothing for the reputation of your son, who possibly could be a fine politician given time to adjust. I too have witnessed your outbursts at hustings, and from my viewpoint, not too much there to be proud of.
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Gary.
One thing I agree with you is that there is a considerable amount of bullying within the States. However I suspect that we might disagree on just who exactly is the bully!
As for censorship, well, there are some people speaking out against the state on this very site. Why is this site not shut down!
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Sorry Mrs Macon, but it is a case of ‘mistaken identity’ on your part. I have briefly spoken to my friend this evening, she categorically denies ever saying such things to you – in fact, ever speaking to you at all, let alone making any threats. Her husband is not involved in politics in any way, she is interested in local politics, but quiet as a doormouse and, honestly, i do believe her as there is simply no reason why she would want or need to threaten you or your son.
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Deputy Jeremy Macon,has had time enough to get his feet under the table..what exactly is he doing do you think,I believe he is busy but on what…………..?
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Judging from some of the above comments that have been posted on this forum it is easy to see that where passion so often clouds reason, it might be safe for one to assume that in order for anyone to know whether or not their principles, values and creeds may be perceived and held as true, rational and consistent, most people, like it or not, will either need a rational philosophy of sorts or some fundamental religious belief based upon faith in a Divine Power and Authority. The only choice one has in the matter is that the understanding of their philosophy, faith or creed is something that is clearly defined by way of a conscious disciplined process of sound examination and careful deliberation, or whether their general understanding is simply something that has been left to chance, by subconsciously gathering a pile of second hand conclusions, unsupportable generalisations, chartless whims, half-truths and hollow slogans, all of which, appear to have been randomly and emotionally bundled together into what can only end up as an ever growing burden of crippling self doubt for those holding them – none of which can offer any validity to the clear objective purpose of the discussion – so let’s try to lift it up to a more wholesome level of reasoned, rather than emotive, debate.
Whether or not one likes or agrees with what the Senator has to say, as people of good will, we should all be prepared to stand together and defend his right to say it. The issue, as stated before, is not about Senator Syvret, his philosophy, political leanings, his unpleasant manners or necessarily about his actual arrested. The issue that should concern everyone is the Statute/Law and the way in which it was written, enacted and then executed upon the Senator (or anyone else for that matter) during his arrest and search. What is currently at stake, concerns everyone’s Civil Liberties, and the very fact that our liberties are under attack by being stealthily dismantled from within and then advanced by States Members who have, on a regular basis, failed to protect our freedoms while sleepily enacting dozens of new and unnecessary Statutes and Laws through the Assembly without ever thoroughly considering their consequences.
Either gone, severely curtailed or greatly diminished under the pretext of fighting terrorism, crime or any other overrated excuse employed to frighten people, is the freedom from Arbitrary Arrest, the full Right to Silence, Protection against forced Self Incrimination, Presumption of Innocence, Rights in Custody, Double Jeopardy, the right to be free from any Unreasonable Search and Seizure, Security of Property, the right to know the Evidence and Accusations made against the person or human being, the right to full Privacy, Privacy in Communications, the undermining of the Confidentiality in Medical Records, the Confidentially of Financial Records. Further diminished and or severely curtailed is the right to Free Speech, Free Self Expression and any form of Expression that causes neither injury, harm nor loss to another, Freedoms from Unwarranted Surveillance, Association, Peaceful Protest and Free Movement. Finally, if history repeats itself and the EU dictatorship under German influence gets its way via the Lisbon Treaty, we will soon loose the right to Habeas Corpus and a Trial By Jury of our peers – so marvel not that there may be some who still wish to retain the right to responsibly own and bare arms!
For the benefit of PJF (49) and those who constantly come up with this same tired argument, let me say that no-one should be the least bit interested in what you or your associates understand and consider to be “reasonable” – The word ‘Reasonable’ has broad interpretive parameters and as such, is wide open to judicial abuse, especially when it is solely employed by senior, MATRIX trained, police officers in the procurement of a warrant. Therefore, every citizen and human being on this dear Island, should be able to safely rest in the knowledge that any “Search and or Seizure” carried out by the police becomes totally “Unreasonable” when the Warrant for that search and seizure has been issued WITHOUT first providing evidence to show “Probable Cause“ – nothing less! Only upon evidence showing “Probable Cause” does such an action become “reasonable”. As this may not be the way in which the law is currently understood in Island today, then changes should immediately be enacted to claw back the many Freedoms that our States Members have so brutally discarded over the past ten years. A free society threatens no one. Thank you.
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Jerseybull. Yawn.
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I fully endorse your post Jersey Bull. Well put.
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Jersey Bull
Nice to see such a well thought out and objective point of view on this debate.
The only thing which a free speaking inquisitive society and strong opposition threaten is the status quo of the ruling elite…
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Jersey bull
Long winded”, it even sounds idealic! but have you considered what a charter that would be for murderers paedophiles, DP offenders, etc to hide under. have you considered how many innocent victims will carry on suffering or dyeing while police wait patiently to obtain cast iron proof of guilt before arrest, search and questioning, in fact what would be the point they would have enough evidence for charge anyway.
Being arrested is not proof of guilt, we still have all the safeguards of our justice system to come after this.
Reasonable, is surely enough at this stage of an investigation. Our police force is not corrupt were it so I might agree with you.
My thoughts are for the rights of protection for the victims, yours appear more for the rights of the offender.
All very well harping on about human rights and what may happen, we not only need to bring offenders to book we also need to stop them before they commit a second or multiple offences
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So I march up to a perfect stranger and accuse her of threatening me?
Sounds very likely to me.
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If disagreeing with someone doesn’t mean a conspiracy then surely agreeing with someone could led to a conspiracy, expecially if they decide to keep it a secret for others?
This appears to be yet another establishment supporter trying desperately to rubbish certain things that are upsetting those in charge, in my opinion.
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We all say things in jest, or through flippancy, and I’m sure we all use exaggerations that are quite obviously exaggerations to emphasise one tiny point. Yes, some people exaggerate more than others, but can we just use some common sense when we hear such statements. I find the North Korea comment highly distasteful but if I was unsure (and cared enough about) what was meant I would ask, that’s the only way to actually find out after all.
There are times when reading into something too much just isn’t helpful.
As for the other debate, regardless of what the two people involved say, none of us can know what actually took place unless we were there. Even if we were there we wouldn’t know the history that preceded it, so this surely isn’t really the place for such personal discussion. More importantly, what people see and hear is not only selective (usually due to their likes or dislikes of the people involved), it is altered by the observer’s perception (due to personal history, mood at the time…) so someone can be telling the ‘truth’ and it still be different to someone else’s ‘truth’.
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Oh dear Nellie, you are surely becoming your own worst enemy.
“So I march up to a perfect stranger and accuse her of threatening me?
Sounds very likely to me.”
Well, you wrote it and it would seem to bear out other comments on here.
For goodness sake, and that of your son – who will unavoidably be associated with you – learn to press the stop and think button before engaging mouth.
There is also no real need to cosy up to posters
with an endless stream of “Spot on”s. These people already know that they are right. An endorsement from Nellie might just devalue them in the current climate.
…and please don’t jump straight on the keyboard to me, unless it’s to say thanks for the advice!
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Nellie Macon – i say this in the nicest way possible, i do admire you posting openly on these sites and i’m sure you in your own way want the best for your family and Jersey, but you are a laughing stock. You’re very famous – the chattering classes talk about you at dinner parties, but sadly for the wrong reasons. I imagine you as a pantomime dame, larger than life and always heckling and shouting. We all look forward to your pantomime at the 2011 hustings!
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I’m looking forward to the next hustings where I can sit in front of Mrs Macon and hear people shout…. “she’s behind you!”
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