Tough message for unruly youths
Thursday 23rd April 2009, 2:59PM BST.
Youth Court chairman Bridget Shaw
THE Youth Court sent a strong message to unruly youths yesterday – behave or face hefty fines.
There was also a warning to parents who failed to control their offspring, as the court fined parents whose 13-year-old son was convicted of riding a motorcycle.
The tough caution came following many weeks of trouble caused by youths in St Helier and elsewhere in the Island.
And yesterday it was reported that the Youth Court was struggling to clear a backlog of cases, which ranged from vandalism and violence to other kinds of antisocial behaviour.
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Laws need to be brought into place where youths recognise they cannot break the law with impunity. Probation is not a big enough deterrent, I know this because I work with children and they just laugh about it and are not in the least bit concerned as it doesn’t impact at this time on them in a way that they are concerned about. Some parents to some degree are responsible, but this is not always the case and fining them could compound the situation at home. What is needed are clear and appropriate punishments for antisocial behaviour, with the ability to enforce compliance. E.g. Proper secure units where the staff have the power to make them go to their rooms, perhaps a form of boot camp or similar to teach discipline, where they have to attend. ASBOs do not work either and infact have the opposite effect of what was intended; in the UK they have become a street status symbol, boosting street cred and is even being used on items directed at the youth market such as mopeds etc. There needs to be a complete overhaul of the legal system with regards to minors before society loses complete control.
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How in the world will this make things any better if children dont listen to their parents either!
These ‘untouchables’ know their parent cant control them and know the law dont bother either! why punish the parents when the children are doing the crimes!
This is not the answer at all, we need to treat the children just like we would adults and lock them up !
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Who wants to holiday in a place where you can not even control the young ones. for gods sake bring back some of your old values and let the police police the island as it did 20 to 30 years ago when things like this were just unheard of in the lovely island of Jersey.
yours Jay. Doe.
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Bring back National Service. (Seriously)
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There is one thing that youths hate more than anything and thats being humiliated.
Perhaps the threat of public humiliation in some way would be a good deterrent, like picking up chewing gum from the streets in a bright pink jumpsuit.
It was a form of punishment at my school when I was a kid (minus pink jumpsuit of course):-)
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Well said BS Deluxe
make the little B****gers a laughing stock and then take them home in a police van so the neighbours know as well
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same old miss understandings. the courts offer nothing in the way of solutions, an expensive waste of time. as for the solutions, experts know what is required but it takes money to implement.
as for the rest of us who are so judgemental, children only emulate what the wider society demonstrate. now what does that tell you?
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I agree with pretty much all of the above. I do agree with Kirsty about the parents except to say that it is only in some cases that the parents knowing won’t help the matter. There will be cases where the parents have simply been a bit neglectful of their duties, where they themselves will be embarrassed to realise what their child has been up to, and in those cases it is best to give the parents the chance to do some proper attentive parenting and see if that solves the matter.
These kids are not all going to be from ‘bad’ homes with parents that beat them, some will be from wealthy homes with parents who simply buy their affection rather than discipline them. Those parents need to be made to realise what affect their neglect is having on the whole of society, they also need to be made to pay for any damage caused.
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A jolly good thrashing is what they need to reach them some respect. Did me no harm when I was a kid. To much namby pamby molicoddling is the problem these days
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4. James, I agree completely. Hefty fines? 2.99 for swearing at a police officer and 5.99 for beating up an old lady.
Small fines do not work. Look at the number of people speeding and driving on mobiles.
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Jersey must be one of the safest places in the world to live in, yet there are 13 Police forces for a population of around 90,000 people. All those bored coppers cruising the streets at night looking for trouble – it doesn’t surprise me that there are so many young people going through the courts. Creating more laws will only create more criminals – what these young people need are opportunities, not threats. As the truly inspirational Camila Batmangelidh of Kids Company says, “LOVE IS ALL IT TAKES”.
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I am amazed this can happen in an island with a police force compared to North Korea where they can search you and your house then lock you up for 7 hours whenever they feel like it.
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Karen, they have opportunities, some are just too spoilt to realise it, others are too lazy… what happened to creativity? What happened to making things happen for yourself? It’s what the rest of us did.
And more laws creating more criminals is kind of obvious, but more laws don’t create more bad people, it just changes them from being bad, anti-social people to criminals (by definition). It’s semantics. What we need is to teach people respect, and parents should lead the way in that from the day their child is born.
Why take up opportunities when TV tells them there are easier ways to make a fortune, like becoming famous for being an idiot?
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Hefty fines! What a load of rubbish. Its true we need secure units, public humiliation and national service is a good idea (just ask anybody who has had to do it!) it could be used not only as a punishment but at the same time an achievement any young person completing could be very proud of.
Let’s face it, we all got into trouble and caused a nuisance when we were younger and regret it now. It just seems current punishments (if any) seem to fuel the fire.
I think zero tolerance is the way forward but at the same time, we need to ensure that when they finally come to their senses and grow up that these juvenile convictions don’t stand in the way of their future.
You should be held accountable for your actions no matter what your age. But when you’re older, it should be put down as childish stupidity not great the crime of centuary.
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A system of restorative justice is the only way forward. People who have broken the law need to do something positive – to help put right the wrong that they have caused. Fines are a waste of time…and will do nothing to help young people understand that their behaviour is socially unacceptable. Facing up to what they have done and then, doing something to put it right, is the one thing that may help these young people get back on the right path and become a responsible citizen.
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What the hell is a “fine” going to do to them? IT’s not them having to pay the fine it’s their parents who probably can’t control their own kids in any case.
Put them all on community service litter duty or painting council buildings.
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The concept of fining is a questionable one,it instills the wrong values,i.e if you can pay..you can do what you like…as witnessed recently new Bentley owner on a yellow line being booked said to the the warden…”please yourself I can afford it ..you’ll never afford one of those….
what message is sent fining kids, many who are already in debt and expect the parents to cough up..? community service has to be earned off
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Community service is the way to go. Being seen cleaning parks etc is the humiliation needed. Fines are paid by the care free parents, not the kids.
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Storm in a tea cup – as per usual. String together a few cases of kids messing around and you get this sort of hysteria.
Kids these days are no worse than 10, 20, 30 or 40 years ago. Just the JEP ‘making’ news on a quiet day.
Let’s review the actual crime statistics over the past 5 – 10 years rather than respond to a recent spate.
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Unfortunately there are a considerable number of adults who simply arent fit to be parents and naturally we have these cosequences.
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17, that’s so true. I would only have fining if fines were say ‘a percentage of overall wealth’. Otherwise it is silly. Even just parking costs help bring about a two-tier society where the rich get to drive more than the poor. There needs to be some other system that is not JUST money-related.
Public humiliation, Liz’s suggestion of restorative justice (good thinking there), or incarceration (where appropriate) seem to be the only thing that affects everyone equally.
However, this also requires that if a case comes to court that lawyers are court-appointed and that the wealthy cannot just buy a better-connected lawyer! This is the only method for allowing a fair trial. The current system whereby rich people so often get off because of who their lawyer is, well it’s frankly sickening.
Anyway, last night outside Checkers in St Ouens 2 young children were blowing extremely loud whistles constantly for over an hour. Now that seems like nothing much, but if you were in that shop you know how extremely irritating it was, and I can’t imagine how the staff put up with it. Had I been working in that shop they would have been marched home to their parents and their parents would have been yelled at. Now these may be ‘nice’ kids, but where were their parents? They were possibly 6 and 11, out in the dark around 9.30pm with no adult in sight.
It’s neglect.
My parents would never have let me get away with continually annoying other human beings, be it through noise or actions. I was taught to respect other human beings and to take their needs and rights into account. Why are these kids’ parents not teaching them that prolonged extreme noise can send people into a rage? Had I worked on that shop and it been a hard day already I know just how raging that constant noise would have made me.
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#19 Simon, I’d be really surprised if statistics weren’t up, but even then people are less inclined to phone in now because the Police are so busy, and I guess there is apathy about what can really be done. Zero Tolerance has been proven in the UK to work, never mind that all zero tolerance means is the law actually being enforced!
#14 Stuart, I didn’t! And I’m not just saying that, I had a fun childhood but the fact is that you don’t have to break the law or be irresponsible to do that. Plenty of kids in Jersey seem to manage to enjoy their lives without annoying the rest of us, so it’s clear that these troublemakers could also.
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An Obituary was printed in the Times newspaper – not such a joke and makes you think.
“Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, ‘Common Sense’, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as: Knowing when to come in out of the rain; Why the early bird gets the worm; Life isn’t always fair; and maybe it was my fault.
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don’t spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended
from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children.
It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an Aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.
Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.
Common Sense took a beating when you couldn’t defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.
Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife, Discretion, by his daughter, Responsibility, and by his son, Reason.
He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;I Know My Rights;I Want It Now;Someone Else Is To Blame
I’m A Victim. Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.
If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing.
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If you had marched the children home and yelled at their parents, you would be the one ending up at the police station. Don’t assume the law is on your side.
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Bring back the stocks!! A couple well placed stocks, perhaps in front of the States building, with offenders each receiving an hour to experience the disapproval of the assembled masses. I bet you wouldn’t see a single repeat offender.
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Expat2, I’ve heard that one so many times, but never enough either!
Common sense is long gone in our legal system. And even though Jersey isn’t part of the EU, it does tend to follow the UK (which is). Personally I think the EU has done a heck of a lot of harm when it comes to law and order.
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Leah
I would be very interested to know what the EU has got to do with law and order. Whilst they can be justly held responsible for straightening our cucumbers, getting rid of the knobbly bits and stopping our sausages being sold bright pink and fluorescing. I am really at a total loss when it comes to the behaviour of our youths.
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Expat2, I don’t know why the Times even wasted column inches on “Common Sense”.
It is one of the most over hyped nonsenses of all time and usually means little more than “the way I (and anyone I agree with) do things.
It is very subjective and on a par with “Right thinking people”.
I first started questioning the validity of common sense when a woman who worked with me kept bleating on about it whilst almost continually doing stupid things.
The really amusing thing was that it was the only idea the Tories could come up with at the last General Election for a slogan. It lost them the Election. So much for common sense!
Never mind, Cameron is going to bring back sunshine this time.
Will anyone really deal with unruly youths?
That should be a vote winner – when it is achieved rather than promised.
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Boris, unfortunately it is the EU that are always decreeing the new ways of treating people to ensure that their human rights are not breached. The UK never say no! And bowing down to the EU is why prisoners can now get compensation, even though the taxpayer already pays to keep them and any money they get should go to their victims.
It is the EU that have caused the lessening of sentences for certain crimes. And it is also them who started up all this giving young troublemakers holidays! They are an insane bunch of people who obviously live in a bubble of total security and have no idea how the lives of us ordinary folk are made hell by these troublemakers.
The EU are not totally to blame, the UK could have some guts and say no to them, but they rarely do.
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Expat2 – I received a copy of that by e-mail a while back. So true.
Youths misbehaving is the sign of a failed society. Failure to provide proper housing, so kids are kicked out at night with nothing to do and nowhere to go because living in a flat is not ideal for family life. Failure to realise that, thanks to the do-gooders, society now has no values – and failure to realise that HR and similar legislation has made criminals and miscreants untouchable. Some posts have advocated humiliation – sadly, HR legislation outlaws that as well as many other suitable measures.
In the past, if someone was kicking your car, you’d give him a good belt – a good deterrent. Now, if you even touch the person, it’s YOU who will be charged, whilst the perpetrator’s offence will be ignored. The signal that sends to potential trouble makers is that you can do what you like with impunity.
Only when we return to the ‘common sense’ of decades ago, will we make progress. Until then, most laws only apply to the law-abiding – and are therefore useless.
Look at it this way, if you’re getting your head kicked in in town, HR legislation won’t give you much protection. However, when (if) your assailant gets arrested, there’s several pages of HR benefits that will apply to him (or her).
Fines or any of the other initiatives won’t work. This is a complex problem involving housing, leisure activities, parental responsibility and much more, which means, due to the dysfunctionality of our ministerial government, it will never be resolved.
By the way, how many of you believe the ministerial system is better than the old committee system?
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Leah
It is a common mistake to think that European Human Rights law has anything to do with the EU. Please note that the European Court of Human Rights has not ever been part of the EU and is completely separate as is the European Convention on Human Rights.
The EU has the European Court of Justice which is completely different and deals with community issues such as how long is your banana
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Boris, I know the distinction I just use it because I know that other people make the mistake and the European Convention of Human Rights is a long phrase, I have however made the distinction in previous posts.
In society the EU now ‘means’ anything where Europe (on mass) dictates what all of Europe should be doing.
That’s the way in which I use it and that’s the way my post relates to it. The UK bows down now to whatever ‘Europe’ wants, often forgetting that as a tiny little island the situation in the UK is totally different to that of most other European countries.
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Gerard, these would be the same laws that make people unequal also. Minorities are now more equal than the rest of society. Why we need all these laws protecting minorities is beyond me because an attack on someone is an attack and affects that person the same regardless of the prejudice behind the attack.
I want a law that simply says that ALL (at the time) law-abiding human beings deserve respect, and should be free of verbal, mental or physical abuse. Enforce that law and there wouldn’t be a problem. This would allow for anyone actively breaking the law to be restrained without the restrainer having to worry about being persecuted for it.
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Storm in a teacup guy is right. Lets be honest the kids arent that unruly!!! The strongest words I would use for most of the things you read about in the JEP would be ‘little scamps’ ie. blocking off a road with a bench………thats pretty funny even to some adults.
The fact is Jersy kids arent that bad. Theres no knife crime, no gun crime. Ive just eturned from living in London whilst at university and I would hear gunshots on a nightly basis and see 11 yr olds with knifes at football games.
If everyone stopped calling them ‘untouchables’ and unruly thered be no problem. problem solved.
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Leah
Sorry but that argument is risible sophistry; using that logic you might as well blame Venezuela for dropping the atomic bombs on Japan on the basis that it is in the Americas.
The EU is an internationally recognised political entity whether you like it or not ’society’ (whatever that is) does not see Europe and the EU as the same thing.
The ECtHR was created primarily to protect the rights of those in Eastern Europe after WWII when it was occupied by the USSR (also European up as far as the Urals) which is not a member of the EU.
The UK and now Jersey has signed up to the convention and if you read it these rights might even be something that you would want to benefit from. Just as people who shout power to the people want power to be handed to those who shout power to the people.
Those who do not have their rights impinged and are not oppressed have little interest in protecting them.
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Peter Hood.
Tell that to the guy who had the living daylights kicked out of him a little while back.
How refreshing for him to learn from his hospital bed that he was only put there by ‘little scamps’ committing acts of tomfoolery and high jinx.
And whilst blocking off a road can be pretty funny if that is all it was, after all, many a night I walked home wearing a traffic cone as a hat in my younger days, there’s a difference to larking about and causing £60,000 worth of damage for the sheer sake of it.
And if you think for one minute that some of these kids aren’t carrying knives on them, then you are about as naieve as one can get.
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Peter Hood wrote:
“Ive just eturned(sic) from living in London whilst at university and I would hear gunshots on a nightly basis”
Come on Peter, where about in London was this? I’d love to know, I’ll go and check it out.
Are you sure you weren’t hearing idiots loosing off fireworks at midnight because it was someones birthday or perhaps cars backfiring.
I know there are firearms incidents from time to time but “nightly basis” – pull the other one.
You would have run home to Jersey by now if it had been that bad!
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Public Flogging, National Service yes but don’t waste money on secure units make the consequences a serious deterrent. Do not lumber yourselves with useless rehab centres for the scum on your Island. Bring the parents before the courts too and fine them!! For goodness sake will the sensible people on Jersey stand for election and remove the do gooders and wishy washy socialists.
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Dress them up in pink tights and tutus, link them together in a chain gang, and make them sweep the gutters.
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Leah, here you go again damning the ‘EU’ – your made up force that you believe oppresses Jersey and the UK and invents laws purely just to offend you and allow children to run riot.
Your constant ranting about how bad youths are today throughout the weblogs is appaling behaviour from someone who should no better. Have you ever personally been attacked by hoards of youths or subject to the behaviour you rave on about? from recollection you have not.
The reality is children do no more than adults, in fact adults are even worse – look at Hitler and what he did.
Children have more rights now and I say ABOUT TIME. For years children have been abused and treated appalingly by so called ‘adults’. If you had your way children would be birched and thrown in jail. I say power to the children!
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