Public sector pay is frozen
Tuesday 28th April 2009, 3:00PM BST.
PUBLIC sector workers have been told that they will not be offered a pay increase this year.
The news was broken to representatives of all pay groups by States chief executive Bill Ogley at a meeting yesterday.
The workforce representatives were also told that there would be no redundancies. But Mr Ogley qualified this by saying that guarantees could not be given, although the workers were told that there was no intention to reduce job numbers or cut services.
Chief Minister Terry Le Sueur (pictured) said: ‘It is reflective of the economic circumstances and a prudent move at this time.’
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No resignations over the lost incinerator millions yet they’re happy to freeze all pay. Hardly fair. Le Sueur’s position has become untenable, but he lacks the decency to walk. I’m dreading moving back to this circus in a few months.
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Well hopefully the CoM will keep their end of the bargain and keep inflation down to 0% then! Unfortuantely I don’t think they will, so most will end up even poorer yet again. If the workers are very lucky they might even be allowed to keep their jobs!
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A sensible decision particularly if it avoids any (compulsory) redundancies for the moment. Well done.
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The inflation figures were out just a week ago at 2.1% this is therefore not a pay freeze but in effect a pay cut. The states members themselves always seem to get their rise though, dosen’t seem intirely fair! It was only a few years ago that they voted themselves a 7% rise and awarded the manual workers just 3%!!
Also always wondered why the May inflatin figures are always well below those released in December!!!
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One assumes that all food/service prices will be frozen as well
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i knew it uk just has to sneeze and we get a cold.have they put a freeze on electricity,food,rent etc?if not why not? its all one-sided,they take take take and give nothing back.remember terry,s words there is no recession in jersey?
hands up all who believed him
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I think this should be seen as the opening bid by the State’s side and a little negotiating should see them secure 1 – 2%.
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Well that’ll help the economy then.
No rise no spending…doh!…..
And therefore more companies going down the drain and therefore more Taxpayers money to bail them out.
Oh dear……….
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I fully agree with the decision providing the Statesmembers are not taking a pay rise either.
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It seems rather unfair on long-serving States workers to be told pay freeze when GST is still adding 2% to RPI and the States workforce is still expanding. Good management techniques suggests recruitment freeze comes first, then second cut out duplication, before finally freezing pay as a last resort. This amounts to a pay cut in real inflation adjusted terms for all States workers. I am self-employed and not by the States!
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No surprises here, inevitable given the current climate. Most of us will be worse off in real terms, tighten the belt!
Still so long as there are no redundancies it places states workers in a better position that the private sector employees facing an uncertain future.
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Ministers blow our money on all sorts of folies de grandeur,and the working man can go whistle…? while his utility bills and food go through, the roof is there ever a more disgusting spectacle than fat incompetent cats telling the the poorer to tighten their belts…and they wonder why others clearly see their elitist ways and name them morally bankrupt……..it is fair and legitimate for those responsible to be made to pay back the “Euro” scandal shortfall to give to the workers who after all only want cost of living to try to stand still,Bill Ogley already earns more than the Prime minister ,so no hardship for him and his ilk.why are we putting up with this dictatorial garbage,it would serve them right if the workers blocked the ports till fairness was acknowledged like the French.
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I think it is a brave decision and the right one. For everyone who moans about the “spineless” States Members, I commend them on making a difficult decision that hasn’t been based on the Electorate base (and number of votes likely to garner in the next elections.
Most are facing pay cuts, reduced hours or the very real threat of redundancy so a pay freeze isn’t the end of the world in the current climate.
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lets see if the states members follow suit!
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This is just another twist of the knife in to the working person. When was the last payrise that the majority of states workers received above the inflation rate……… i can’t remember.
its a case of im allright mate so tough.
Instead of freezing the pay and not offering a pay rize let Mr le Sueur and co look in to some of the high rollers within the states wo are not needed. Is it not time to get rid of some of the pen pushers who are on high money and delegate work and get back to the proper working way of one boss one deputy and lets say 20 workers for example. instead of 6 bosses 10 deputies and 2 workers.
does that scenario ring any bells it does to me………
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In the private sector pay has been frozen or cut and thousands of jobs are going. Yet the public sector seem to think they should not have any job cuts and want pay rises as well. Why don’t they live in the same world as the rest of us!
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Good public workers are way over paid for the service that we get , am not getting a pay increase ,why should they i ask !!!!!!!!
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OK fine – As long as you freeze the 20 means 20 phasing out of tax allowances.
You can’t have it both ways Mr Le Sueur.
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I am not a States employee but, will not be getting a pay rise either. However, what about all those receiving massive handouts from benefits etc. Will they be stopped any further increases? In fact review them all carefully, reduce those found in excess, and save some of the money gushing out in waste.
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It will be interesting to see if Terry le Sueur and Bill Ogley have the bottle to face down threatened industrial action or an actual strike.
The States have always bought peace in the past but there was always plenty of money in the kitty so it was an easy and safe option.
For the first time since the late fifties it looks like our politicians might have to start earning their money by making hard choices.
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Why no the job cuts ? Its the States out of control spending and asscociated growth thats driven GST and 20 means 20 for all of us. TLS needs to wake up and cut out the fat.
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#6 Bella
The probable reason is that price controls tend to increase redundancies and reduce workers’ pay by not reflecting commercial reality. For example, electricity prices have gone up in response to the price of electricity generation going up, largely through the increase in oil price a year ago. Companies can either choose to make a loss or reduce overheads, prime among them being employees salaries.
Incidentally, about things being one-sided, I notice you mention price controls but not wage controls!
#8 Richard
Your argument assumes that people will spend any rise. In fact, with so much debt around and property prices falling, people are likely to pay off their mortgages and/or unsecured debts. With unemployment increasing, even those without debt are likely to save for a rainy day.
Also, which companies have been bailed out?
#15 typical
I agree completely. By reforming the public sector, taxpayers save money and public sector employees doing good work could be paid more. Everyone wins!
#18 Jersey Taxpayer
If you’re affected negatively by 20 means 20, it means you are a standard rate taxpayer and therefore relatively well off (believe it or not!)
Those less well off, who pay the marginal rate of tax, are having their allowances increased and therefore paying less tax.
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its a shame that its the workers on the ground at the sharp end of work on lower wages that miss out , the top brass can absorb not getting a cost of living easily.
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Unfortuantley it tends to be the workers who loss out everytime. I can never remember getting a payrise as cost of living doesn’t count in my book.
Unfortunately workers don’t band together enough and are thus an easy target for the upper echelions to do as they want with.
Rule by division is the easiest way to control the masses to the benefit of the few.
Another point 6,654 people and their families have a half decent standard of living over here compared to those at the mercy of the private sector. What happens if most of these don’t pay tax anymore on reduced wages? Who will make up the short fall? It won’t be the private sector that’s for sure. Also as these people are paying taxes they are paying towards their own wages are they not?
Michael Neal what do you classify as a break even wage over here for a family of four? £10,000, £20,000, £30,000, £40,000 or more?
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A sensible move to freeze pay as this is what will happen in the private sector.
However the states need to save the taxpayers more money and how they could do this is to reduce sickness benefit and also redundancy payments as this is costing the taxpayers millions.
Terry/ Phil you must act now, if not then give the job to someone who understands the numbers.
Did you know states employees can be sick on full pay for 6 montns a year!
Did you also not that after 2 years service all employees would receive 2 years pay if made redundant! Putting this into context no states employee has anything to worry about!!
We never here much about this in the papers do we.
Please feel free to comment on this one.
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Yes I work for the States and no I don’t disagree just because it effects me. However I would like to know how the States intend in the future to employ professional healthcare workers. As nurses we have not yet even had our pay increase agreed from June 2008 let alone anything for this year. As consumers we are taken advantage of on the highstreet with “shipping costs” on products topped up with GST. When 20 means 20 is introduced my tax and social security rate will be around 2% higher then tax and NI in England. And finally, there is no way I could ever afford to buy my own house here, so instead live in hospital accommodation which is cold, draughty and mouldy. There is only so much that living by the beach is worth, NHS all is forgiven……….
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Tom wrote:
“In the private sector pay has been frozen or cut and thousands of jobs are going. Yet the public sector seem to think they should not have any job cuts and want pay rises as well. Why don’t they live in the same world as the rest of us!”
As, in the eyes of many islanders, the private sector (this time) were the architects of our downfall surely there is not much wrong with them now enjoying their just desserts!
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Michael Neal #22. totally agree about public sector reform. The public sector includes some very large departments and like large departments in private business there are always those that get away with not pulling their weight but still getting paid. The fact is that in most departments you could probably take a vote as to who exactly these people are and get a unanimous result, yet still the people that employed them don’t see it.
It does work out as a pay cut and that is a shame, and the States must surely not take a rise themselves after making that decision. However, I do believe it is the right decision in the current circumstances.
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Well done Mr Ogley!!
Why should the Public Sector continue to get pay awards when the profitable part of the economy “the Private Sector” is suffering in the global downturn… Many organisations are quietly lowering staffing levels from the Private Sector.
Looking at tax receipts will Jersey be able to support long term unemployed numbers rising from both sectors whilst their main industry is squeezed by factors outside of the Island.
Some difficult choices and one time only choices are coming Mr Le Sueur best of luck!!
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Tony why attack other workers getting half decent conditions? If we take this approach all will end up working for 50p an hour as I am sure some Albanians will work for that amount. What then for the rest of the workers over here?
As per sick benefit don’t touch this it has already been halved for a married man who now is only getting a single allowance. You try living on that with a family to support over here.
Redundancy payments are there to protect workers from getting the boot. It needs to be implimented in the private sector to give workers some protection from unscrupulous bosses.
As I have said before cost of living is needed every year to maintain one’s starting conditions. Why are most happy to have their wages cut every year regardless of how the company is performing or regardless of economic conditions or regardless how they are preforming themselves? Companies love inflation as it means they can cut their major costs every year as wages account for up to 60% of running costs. Amazingly people who account for this 60% are happy to take the rough end of the stick every year.
Say someone has a major illness what happens then? Are they just dumped and told to claim welfare? 6 months isn’t a long time when someone has a serious incidence of cancer.
If people aren’t interested in others why don’t we just stop income tax and let everyone sort their own affairs out? Everyone can then pay for whatever they need. Schools could be privatised as could everything else then the user could pay couldn’t they? If people are too selfish to care about others they should be prepared to look after themselves and not expect help themselves. Maybe it is a case of I expect to get things but I am not prepared for anyone else to get anything?
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I think we have more to worry about than this at the moment. Lets hope this “swine” flu dosent get out of hand or the only food left on the shelves may be put up to 9% GST. Lord knows where being exploited in every other scenario.
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I would like to clarify that states workers are not entitled to 6 months sick pay in every 12 months as Tony intimates above, after 12 weeks they go into half pay then after another 12 weeks no pay, and the sickness is calculated over a 12 month cycle so if they returned to work at went on the sick soon after they go back into no pay or half pay, just for the record!!
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I believe there are too many people on this planet and something has to give. This is the sad reality of over population I am afraid. Diseases whether manmade or natural will take their toll.
We have also virtually destroyed the effectiveness of anti-biotics now due to over use. What happens when the last one doesn’t work properly anymore?
Food will end up in short supply sooner or later anyway. it is only a matter of time. Then what happens?
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#23
Its not an arguement! Its an observation and comment………..
Bail out? Well Woolworths PLC for one (1)…next..?
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Brian, thanks for your response, but I notice everyone has keep rather quite about the redundancy payments for States workers.
How can the taxpayers afford to pay for these benefits, when jobs are being lost in the private sector. No private business could afford these payments, and not many could afford 12 weeks sickness at full pay, and another 12 at half pay.
Reducing both these extravagent benefits to something sensible would save the island millions each years
I suppose I should apply to join the comfortable club.
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Statutory redundancy pay is all that should be given as the chances of actually being made redundant in the public sector are negligible compared with the private sector most of whom would only be entitled to that. This is our i.e the taxpayers money – STOP pouring it down the drain – if the statutory redundancy entitlement is sufficient / good enough for a private worker it must also be for a states worker. These double standards stink – the States pension arrangements the taxpayer is financing are even more sickening.
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Tony it is your opinion that employers can’t absorb these costs. I suggest everyone try and improve their lot and not be envious of other workers with better conditions, as all you will end up doing is dragging everyone back into the Victorian era, when the employers did what they wanted without fear of sanction!
In my opinion businesses have a responsibility to their employees and shouldn’t be able to use and abuse them. As I have said before if there were no workers those who make their comfortable lifestyles from the workers would themselves be having to do a hard day’s graft. Is it any wonder those at the top don’t want the apple cart upset?
I myself believe the whole system needs a good hard look at and things need to change for the better. These type of practices are not doing the majority much good at all.
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Al 36. How do you know the perks in the private sector are good enough? I think they fall a long way short of anything I would classify as decent. Maybe compared to the Victorian era they are good? However compared to the UK of today they are not.
These double standards exist because businesses over here can get away with more than they can in the UK. Who is responsible for this? The States. Who runs the states? A large number are businessmen. Can anyone see the correlation yet and why things are as they are?
Yes the tax payer employs these workers as you say, however, they pay taxes so are partially financing themselves anyway. If you take family members not working for the states these are also helping their own family get better pay and conditions. I would have no qualms paying taxes to see that my children had good secure jobs with an indexed linked pension thats for sure.
Also as they get half decent wages they are in the tax bracket, put them in the private sector on the miserly wages this sector often pays and there would be a further short fall in taxes for the rest of us tax payers to pay for.
You are quite right about double standards but you are barking up the wrong tree I’m afraid. Point the finger at those responsible and get it sorted out.
Maybe you expect no pension and to work till you drop? In a decent society pensions should be paid to enable the workers to have a holiday from work before they slip their mortal coil. This is the least big business and the government should do in exchange for 40-50 years hard work from the majority, or do these groups expect something for nothing?
As for being looked after in old age and having to sell your house because you were frugal and made sacrfices to be independent of the state, don’t get me started on that one. My advice would be in the present set up, don’t bother let the state look after you, why bother when you could lose your house through no fault of your own? The others who didn’t bother or have hidden their assets can get looked after almost for free.
Fair? You must be joking.
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“those who make their comfortable lifestyles from the workers would themselves be having to do a hard day’s graft”
I know a few business owners (albeit smaller businesses with mostly less than 10 employees) and I have to say that most work seven days a week for up to 18 hours a day. I don’t think I personally know one business owner who doesn’t do a hard day’s graft.
You must meet some strange people Adrian?
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#21 Adrian: ‘What happens if most of these don’t pay tax anymore on reduced wages’
Their wages are paid for by tax revenues? Even taking benefits subsequently claimed into account, if you cut public sector headcount this will cut costs.
‘Michael Neal what do you classify as a break even wage over here for a family of four? £10,000, £20,000, £30,000, £40,000 or more?’
It depends on the family. Do they shop at the Coop or M&S? Do they buy their kids the latest fashions or shop at car boot sales? Do they have quallies? The cost of living in Jersey is higher than in the UK (particularly for food and rents) but for a family with four children the tax take is lower. Not sure whether this creates a net gain or loss. Again, whether it’s a gain or loss probably depends on the family.
#34 Richard
Woolworths plc wasn’t bailed out, its staff were.
*
Re redundancy payments, my understanding is that the reason the statutory notice period is relatively generous in Jersey is in lieu of redundancy payments.
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#40
“my understanding is that the reason the statutory notice period is relatively generous in Jersey is in lieu of redundancy payments.”
Employer: “Sorry, old son, I’m going to have to let you go. The good news is that you will carry on working in a strained atmosphere for longer than you would outside Jersey. The bad news is that you won’t get any redundancy money”
Let’s see now who is going to be the first of the hard nosed/hearted to write in and say “Yerbut he gets more time to look for another job”. My bets are on ***,**** and *** ****** !
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Carolyn I am not talking about the small fish. The people you describe do work hard but they have fallen into the trap of working in their own business to maximise profits you get people in to do it for you leaving your time spare for other things. This is what rich tend to do.
These are the people I am refering to.
Michael In yout honest opinion how much is required to survive over here for a family of two adults and two children who don’t waste their money on the usual rubbish?
Lets say their mortgage is £250,000 which is quite low in today’s world of inflated house prices.
Or if you prefer they rent a place.
As per States employees you cut all 6,654 just as an example. Most now work in the private sector and some are on welfare as they can’t get a job.
However most wages fall below the tax band so the island has lost the tax completely from nearly all of those States workers that were paying tax previously what happens next?
Is there a nett gain or a net loss? I believe there would be a nett loss taking all factors into account what do you think?
As per others tax going towards these workers wages as I have said before these people have family members who work elsewhere in the private sector and do pay some tax but are happy for their tax money to be spent on their family member’s wages in the States.
As you can see things are not as black and white as some people on here make out.
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I’m just wandering if that money is going to be used to pay for senior states’ members’ miscalculation? Also I’m hoping that the state members themselves won’t be getting any pay rise as that would be just fair…
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well i think that when people are loseing there jobs all around us i wondered if anyone has seen Obama’s latest comments on changeing the tax rules regarding offshore places and companies it will surely affect us here ? then the state workers might start to feel that there lucky to have a job instead of demanding more money every year !
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Carolyn, I’m with you there. The business owners I know work extremely hard, and silly hours, and they muck in at absolutely every level of the work, nothing is beneath them. They also treat their staff exceptionally well on a pay and personal level. These are all businesses of the size you mention though.
In larger businesses, the kind where the business owner is ‘absent’ and most daily decisions are made by someone who is not even playing with their own money, I have witnessed ridiculous treatment of staff by those in management positions, never mind an extreme level of slacking off or the acceptance of praise for something they had no part in while passing the buck for the errors that were entirely their own. When these managers have the ear of the business owner and other staff don’t there is nothing you can do but walk. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was these kind of people that Adrian was meaning. They are often well-paid, totally under-skilled and have schmoozed or trodden their way to the top.
I guess Will Hutton summed it up recently when he pointed out that many very-well qualified and experienced financial advisors were selling products that they themselves did not even understand. Were it not for the mess they made of the economy it would seem utterly bizarre that such a thing could happen but people get away with a lot in business, particularly big business.
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Tony #35… I am a States employee and i can assure you that 26 years service i would not get anywhere near 2 years pay as redundancy. Perhaps you have got your info mixed up with what was an early retirement scheme some years ago.
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This is a class war that is being won hands down by the rich. Get the middle class to squabble amongst themselves over trivia such as private/public, promote the myth that riches are earned by innovative entrepreneurial activity, see the poor as getting their just desserts, and project the few pence in the pound taxes of the wealthy as as an act of optional beneficence. What next? Presumably a heist on pension funds.
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Well done Dec you have seen through their disguise and their motives as far as I am concerned.
As per pension funds, what pension funds? We can’t have people retiring when the wheels of capitalism need to be kept running can we? Someone needs to work to make big profits for big business and you know who don’t they?
Even charity can have hansome returns on any given investment.
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#42
Re the minimum wage a family can survive on, as you say things aren’t black and white. Do the family have quallies? If they don’t, this immediately doubles the rent they’ll pay. Is there mortgage a tracker, fixed rate or standard variable rate? Do they receive income support? There are simply too many variables.
Out of curiousity, what do you think the minimum is?
‘most wages [in the public sector] fall below the tax band’
I’d be grateful if you could explain how you’ve reached this conclusion.
However, ignoring the above, in order for a lower public sector headcount to lead to a net loss (in terms of cash), tax take lost + benefits paid would have to be greater than salary paid. I don’t belive this is the case, particularly if as you claim most public sector employees don’t pay any tax.
Re family members, perhaps they’d feel differently if their family wasn’t employed by an inefficient public sector!
#45
Agreed, though a business owner who appoints someone lousy to run it will suffer as the lousy appointee runs the business into the ground or at least doesn’t generate the profits the business could generate. However, I do accept that workers’ problems are more immediate.
#47: ‘promote the myth that riches are earned by innovative entrepreneurial activity’
Where else do riches come from?
#48: ‘Even charity can have hansome returns on any given investment.’
Not with the way stock markets are at the moment!
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The bit about wages falling below the tax band was in reference to these states employees getting new jobs in the private sector. As they would be on worse pay and conditions they may not be paying tax anymore. Also what about others who couldn’t get jobs or had to claim other benfits due to not have a better pais job in the public sector?
If all a family worked in a private sector except one who was employed by the States then their tax would more than pay the wages of their family member. This wouldn’t then be using other peoples’ taxes would it? What would be wrong in this scenerio? maybe these family members would prefer on of them to have adecent standard of living and also prefer not to have their money wasted on silly projects like steam clocks, brass trees, moving tourism up the road and back down again etc etc etc….
Lots of money can be made from munitions, running private armies, piracy, corrupt regimes, private monopolies, selling sub prime loans or any dubious financial products to a trusting public.
Charity work can led to more business as you are seen as a good egg. There are other rewards as well like a possible visit to Buckingham Palace.
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