Stab vests for honorary police
Thursday 14th May 2009, 3:00PM BST.
Centenier Edgar Wallis outside St Clement's Parish Hall (00685519)
STAB vests have been ordered for St Clement honorary police because of a surge in the number of youths carrying knives.
Centenier Edgar Wallis (59), who prosecutes young people in the Youth Court, has described youth crime in Jersey as ‘out of control’.
‘There are some children who carry knives,’ he said. ‘It’s very worrying. Someone could get killed. I really am concerned when I approach any youth now in case they produce a knife, and that’s not just me – that’s all my officers. Youth crime is out of control in Jersey.’
Centenier Wallis said that St Clement honorary police had the full support of their Constable, Len Norman, who has ordered stab vests for their safety.
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What a sad day.
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Sorry….remind me how many policeman have been stabbed in Jersey recently? Why not go the whole 9 yards and arm the honorary ploice with Tazers and shields. Is this another Jersey over-reaction!
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They need proper training instead of charging into situations unprepared and as though they are a law unto themselves.
If the centenier thinks that “Youth crime is out of control in Jersey” he needs to go on some sort of course to help him, in the UK.
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I’m sorry but I have to agree with Len Norman and Centenier Wallis. Only yesterday I saw a youth walking through St.Mary with a bazooka…
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I agree with Tommy, are we inner-city Manchester or something?
Another waste of taxpayers money!
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Believe him. My son was amongst a number of boys in Platinum last Friday who were threatened with being stabbed. This during the early opening for u18s.
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Tommy comment 2 – I disagree, why wait for someone to be stabbed before taking action. A prudent premptive move I say, the kids are totally out of control. Time was you could walk through town at anytime and not feel threatened, not any more.
Gangs of kids hanging around drinking and shouting abuse, lets take more action before someone gets hurt. This simply could not have happened when I was a kid, if I gave a copper any lip he’d give me a slap and if I told my dad he’d give me another.
What on earth do their parents think their kids are doing out til all hours?
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Tommy, if there is a risk there then why not counter it? If youths are carrying knifes over here now then why not give the police stab vests? Maybe they it will give them more confidence when handling unruly youths. It only takes one person to use the knife.
How many times have you seen a plane been blown up with liquid explosives? yet we still are not allowed to take liquids aboard a plane.
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While it is indeed a sad indictment that today youths have no respect for authority, the authorities themselves must shoulder some of the blame for this.
For all the flashy new powers the authorities have been given over the years there is one that has been quietly vanishing – the power of discretion.
If the police wish to reminisce over the ‘good old days’ and wonder why the parents no longer throw 100% support behind the copper who brings home the errant child, they need to bear in mind that this parent may have had the misfortune of recently being prosecuted by Robocop for, for instance, a minor speeding offence where friendly words of advice would have easily sufficed.
If the parents have experienced, what they consider to be, unfair or harsh treatment by an officer on perhaps the only occasion they have ever had cause to deal with them, is it really that surprising that they might suspect that the police might be doing the same to their son/daughter? The attitude percolates to the youth.
Behaviour breeds behaviour.
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Personally I think it is too little too late.
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I regard these comments by Mr.Wallis as utterly ridiculous. I am a young person in jersey and i have never heard about other young people carrying knives. The comment about Jersey’s youth being ‘out of control’is ridiculous. Yes young people do congregate in town and yes some of them drink but saying the situation is out of control is totally unfounded. Maybe you ought to have a semi-automatic rifle incase things get really bad. What alot of drivle.
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@2. None I think, but why wait until it happens bfore doing something about it. Prevention is better than reaction.
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#Tommy,don,t put ideas in their heads,they might just take it up
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The story is not true.
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Alex #11, you clearly don’t live in the centre of town.
It’s not an over-reaction, it’s not like the police are carrying guns to allow them to take the offensive, just protecting themselves against the day that some idiot decides to get overly balshy while carrying a knife.
But #9 is right about the power of discretion, the police need that. There was an incident in town on Friday night that involved a boy who although drunk or high was clearly in a state that he was a danger to himself. However the Police calmed the situation down and left the kids alone. They started up again within minutes of the Police leaving, things got loud and aggressive and the Police had to come back out. The boy should have been taken to the overnight cells in the first place and left there to calm down with any potential suicide aids removed from him. Alternatively, dragging him up to St Saviours may not have been the worst idea.
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George 10, what do you mean too little too late?
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Tommy (2) I completely agree with you. I understand that there are so called ‘gangs’ in Jersey but have there not always been? Certain kids who used to go to the under 18′s at the block were threated to be stabed. Its nothing new. How many people have ACUTUALLY been stabed? I think none. Maybe spend the money on arranging some sort of community service or punishment for these children caught carrying knives. All you do by handing out stab vests is send a message that we fear those youths. Would they attempt to stab an officer who was not wearing a vest? No as weve already seen, would they if officers were wearing a vest? More likely as they would see it as an attack not an attempted murder.
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Well it’s hardly the ghetto is it
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Jersey30 (16) “How many people have acutually (I think you probably mean ‘actually’) been stabed (stabbed?)” Quite a few, actually, if you were to follow the news at all. But the whole point of stab vests (Tommy 2 and others) is to prevent such tragedies happening. And the cost of a stab vest is far less than the cost (leave aside the emotional torment) of having a member of one’s family stabbed, while trying to help our community.
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17) but it seems to be heading that way ….
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It won’t be long before somebody gets stabbed to death in St Helier, so I don’t see a problem with this
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My husband was a honorary and the main reason he gave up was the behaviour of teens and pre teens that no one wanted to address. Many were violent and he encountered knives. I would not do this job without a stab vest. I suggest people who think all is well should join the honoraries in St Helier at 1 pm on Saturday/Sunday morning and see what it is like
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What’s the fuss ?
St Helier honoraries have been using them for at least 3 years
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Are we really living in a society where some people are critizing others for wanting to be safe in their work.
You can bet your bottom dollar that if an honory policeman was stabbed during the course of duty, the same people would be critizing the police for not taking the necessary precautions.
And for those of you who think that this is an over reaction, I know of 2 people who have been injured with knives in Jersey, and I have read of many cases where broken bottles/glasses were used. These vests don’t just protect against knives, but other weapons that are prevalent on our streets too.
I would however, like to echo the sentiment that it is only a small minority of mindless youths/adults who behave like this. The majority of youngsters do behave themselves.
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Sorry, Jerry (19) I didn’t realise my spelling was the issue of the article but if you would prefer to concentrate on that then I suggest you ‘mark’ every comment on thisisjersey and just skip the articles. Got the message though didn’t you….
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to ed 3. they are trained, get your facts straight. Furthermore do you fancy going out at the dead of night to tackle a group of drunk and drug fueled youths without protection? And remember the Honorary police do all this for free saving the taxpayer ie us a consderable sum of money. So rather than critisize why not try offering your services for free and for the good of the community!
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Its a shame but on balance they should have one.
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Why don’t they simply deal with the very few individuals who are capable of stabbing someone first!
I see these heroin addicts etc walking down king street everyday, they have a criminal record stemming back 15 years and yet they are living in states housing, claiming benefits and walking round the streets.
The law is not protecting the law abiding remainder of society but protecting the law breakers.
It’s a disgrace!
Has anyone walked through the park opposite the hospital lately?? I walked through with my young daughter, only to come across 15 alcoholics shouting abuse at people. One of them was naked running round the park in broad day light. The police arrived and did nothing but take down there names.
These people need to be kept of the streets, they are a danger to themselves aswell as the general public.
Something needs to be done and quick!
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I completely disagree with Jersey30 who appears to be living in “Jersey30” world. The stab vests are a deterrent and will not increase the number of incidents of attempted stabbings. We need to protect our voluntary police. I currently live in South Dublin and stab vests have been a huge success here. Its about time Jersey caught up!
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Surely under Health & Safety rules, all police officers, whether States Police or ‘hobby bobbies’ should wear body armour. The problem is with the turnover of officers in the Honorary Police, this could become expensive (these stab proof vests cost around £300 to £400 each and you aren’t supposed to share them or reissue old ones to new officers) – isn’t it time once again to look at an island wide Special Constabulary instead of 12 separate parsih police forces.
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Jambo (28) is right the police need to exercise a bit more ‘Zero Tolerance’ with regards to disorderly behaviour. Instead of trying to be ‘social workers’ and pat wrong doers on the head and take names and addresses, it would be better to arrest some of them and present them to the magistrate (Who will probably pat them on the head and let them off with some wishy, washy, ‘namby pamby’ sentence.)
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OMG!!! What is going on seriously!! Is there really the need for stab vests? I know the youths can seem intimidating at times but STAB VESTS c’mon!! If they see a officer witha stab vest on they are more than likely going to have a go, than if they seen one without – as jersey30 and tommy said – its an attack like throwing a punch – not an attempt at murder!! We aren’t in the mainland, its definately not a regular occurance but it is a huge over reaction to something that rarley happens!! I just can not get over how soft are police are!! Back in the day you respected the police! If you were bad you got a wallop from who ever it was you were bad to…the youths are laughing at the police coz they tread so softly softly…stab vests are just another way of saying that they have the power!! get a grip seriously! If your scarred of the kids dont be a voluntary! I work with troubled kids regularly, i have a no nonsense attitude and they repect me for it! If they are disrespectful of me, my colleagues, the other kids then they leave no questions asked! There is very rarely any trouble! STAB VESTS!!! I cant believe it!! really!!
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alps expat “George 10, what do you mean too little too late?”
I believe that too be a little jest in resoponse to comment #2.
Centenier George Le Cronier was stabbed to death in the 1840′s and is the only Jersey police officer ever to have been murdered.
For him the stab vest is a little late.
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I think we should protect our honorary police but the problems roots lie with society.
I am not saying we should beat our children but you cannot smack them raise your hand to them, schools are afraid of being prosecuted so do not even break up playground skirmishes instead opting to call the police.
Children are not afraid of anything as there is nothing to be afraid of, add to that boredom, a lack of ameneties, and you get trouble, and there is no point saying in our day we didn’t need places to go etc as the world is a different place now.
New York was once a terrible place, now with Zero tolerance its great, i for one have walked around in the mifddle of the night and have never felt threatened or in any kind of danger, we need disciplince and penalties to be brought in now, and we will only be penalising the “bad” kids as the good ones won’t get into trouble to be affected by the changes
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thanks nioleux
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(33) Nicoleux – best post I have seen for a while. Thanks!
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It is time we armed the Police on a full time basis (Honorary and States alike).
There is nothing like the threat of a gun being drawn and pointed at you to bring you to your senses!
Let’s stop pussy footing around with these thugs and give our Police the tools to do the job properly
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One point though, who has heard of the roving gangs of youths carrying knives in St Clements?
What we should do is fight fire with fire and give the honorary’s flamethrowers, they would like that being the desperate power hungry people they are, who wont be happy until we are all under their heels.
The police are a necessary evil, the honerarys are evil incarnate who receive joy out of making other people miserable (but legally doing it in the process(same build as taffic wardens)which makes then no better in my eyes than the criminals)
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sorry for the spelling errors
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What good is a stab vest if someone decides to stab you in the face???
Besides, if anyone did assault them with a knife and knowing todays pathetic justice system they offender will just get a slap on the wrist.
Perhaps a better safety measure for society is to scare them with much tougher and even harsh punishments. The police should have the powers to “stop & search” and if any offensive weapons are found then the full weight of the law should come down on them…regardless of age!
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Tricky 26
You say “do you fancy going out at the dead of night to tackle a group of drunk and drug fueled youths without protection? And remember the Honorary police do all this for free saving the taxpayer ie us a consderable sum of money”.
Purlease…..when do they do this???
Besides this is the responsibility of the police so what are we paying them to do if they aren’t doing it???
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@6 I could threaten to shoot you doesn’t mean it will happen, talk is as long as rope.. Jersey isn’t really South Central LA and I don’t have much evidence of such threats being carried through in the Island, do you?
@37, dude what Island do you live in? Armed voluntary police?! It’s the threat of poeple like you being able to vote that scares me more, string em up eh??
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Reference to earlier fatal stabbings of Jersey’s police, the situation mentioned by #33 was in resepct of an arrest of a lady of the night in Jersey’s Red Light district, rather than gangs of youths with knives !
Jersey was a different place back then !
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Tricky… I’m sure you’ve read ” signs of discontent ” which just verifies my point that some “part time parish police ” are not professional enough to do the job and they really do think they are a law unto themselves.
Although they do some worthwhile tasks ie directing traffic when required, helping out in emergencies ,Battle of Flowers etc. they are not trained well enough to perform as policemen.
While I’m at it 15-20mph spead limits are a good idea but after 9.00pm until maybe 6.00am they should be suspended which would leave the part timers more time to spend with their families or to do something else.
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When I was teaching in Birmingham it was known for staff to wear stab vests in some schools. I thought this was rather melodramatic until 19 year old threatened me with a knife. I disarmed him and in the struggle he sprained his wrist (the one holding the knife). A few days later the school told me there would be an enquiry into why the boy was injured after trying to threaten myself and others with a weapon. Although it was unlikely he would have actually used the knife, I did only what I had to do to ensure everyone’s safety including my own.
I’m aware that Jersey is much safer than major cities in the UK but given that stab vests could protect Centeniers from most forms of attack, this would seem to be prudent. Naturally anyone can possess a knife at any age(!) NJ.
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My tax bill is high enough thanks, if it saves a life get them the vest, but don’t get rid of them! a single states officers income is about 55k with a shift allowance, these guys cost us nothing. So some are not as well trained as others they still save me and you money every year. Also note that too much training leads to spending over 10 million on hunting coconut shells and the tooth fairy, the time team on ch4 could have done this for Jersey police for about 20 grand. Anyway as with any organisations or governments if you want to change things you need to join them and change things from the inside. You can moan about all news reports about the hobby bobby’s but at least they do something, what are you doing to change things? PS writing on the internet not using your own name does not count.
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Unfortunately this is the price we have to pay for our tolerant society. I think the price is too high. Stab vests and body armour are a barrier to good communication between the public and the police. It is a statement that we don’t trust you and consider you a threat so why should you trust us. It is a part of the problem and not a solution. We have a very small minority of trouble makers who always attract a large audience, giving the impression that the problem is wide spread. This very small minority should be taken out of society and given the help they need before they commit the serious crime and before they drag others down with them. And on the other side of the fence those in positions of authority, including politicians, have a duty to show respect, be polite regardless of the antagonism they may be subjected and to set an example for the rest of us to look up to and aspire. Unfortunately far too many in authority fail this test.
This is our Police force and it is unfortunate that on both sides of the fence that this is not the perception. Maybe as hinted above the over zealous enforcement of silly speed limits and a lack of respect and tolerance shown by the Police is a large part of the problem.
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I agree with comment (40) by ‘BS deluxe’ – this whole sorry affair has come out thanks to the Police’s hands being tied thanks to politcally-correct policing in the last couple of decades. A stop & search policy with harsh sentencing would stop the knife-carriers, end of story. For those that say that would infringe their civil rights, well people of this calibre have forfeited their rights when they chose to break the law.
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Jambo (28) I know just how you feel, I have to walk in the Parade Gardens every day, and watch as they fight, swear, urinate and vomit right outside the kids playground, all fuelled by handouts derived directly from our rates. Why oh why doesn’t the welfare committee stop giving them cash – which is then spent primarily on booze – and instead give them food vouchers which are non-redeemable for alcohol? Would this infringe their civil liberties? I suspect nobody on the welfare board has to go past Parade Gardens! They should stop their cash handouts and then maybe they’d sober up, get cleaned up, and get themselves a job. At the moment they’re loving it, free cash and a virtual licence to sit around in the park all day getting drunk…sounds good, maybe I’m in the wrong career!
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Tobias, I totally agree. Unfortunately they would sell vouchers to friends, family etc to get the cash for alcohol.
However, something needs to be done. Put their money straight into a States controlled bank account and make them have to get approval for everything they buy. Stop them spending money that could buy their kids decent food on alcohol.
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to 41 BS Deluxe.
Hon police are regularly called on to tackle youth incidents at night in their parish.
The cost point is also straightforward. The states police numbers take account of the numbers of Honorary officers in the Island. If the Hon police did not exist then states police numbers would have to increase to cover the many duties undertaken by the Hon police
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Tricky
I agree they may be asked to tackle incidents involving youths, but my point was to highlight your exaggeration that they do this “at the dead of night”. Literally speaking this would be the quietest time of night.
Besides if the laws were upheld properly in the first place there would be no need for honoraries to do this and risk their safety.
The law is an ass and there is no custodial or other deterrent for youths (or any other lawbreakers today).
If you feel the honoraries do as good a job as the full police force then please explain why we don’t just increase the honorary force and reduce full police numbers to save our coffers. It seems the real police are only concerned with crimes which can rake in an income through fines these days rather than dealing with the real problems on the streets.
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sorry Tricky (just a little more to add)…
Frankly I don’t care who upholds the law. The full police force or honorary police force.
I just want the law to be upheld and criminals held accountable for their actions and punished.
Simple as that.
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#52 BS Deluxe: “If you feel the honoraries do as good a job as the full police force then please explain why we don’t just increase the honorary force and reduce full police numbers to save our coffers.”
For the same reason that we have a paid police service in the first place – apathy – and because there aren’t enough people who give a damn willing to give up some of their time to volunteer as an Honorary and give something back to the community.
Instead we have ‘armchair’ coppers, who have never walked a beat, confronted an armed offender, or squared off against an abusive, violent drunk or drug crazed lunatic. Until, anyone has done at least one shift as a police officer (Honorary, or otherwise) I would suggest that your complete ignorance precludes you from taking part in any serious discussion of the matter.
The Parish, and Honorary, systems in this island are the best examples of democratic community govenment – with both politicians and police elected by members of the community and held to account by the same community.
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54 Steve C well said could not have put it better myself!
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SteveC
You don’t have to be an honorary or full time policeman to have “confronted an armed offender, or squared off against an abusive, violent drunk or drug crazed lunatic”. Innocent members of the publice deal with this quite frequently and often without an honorary or policeman in sight.
Presumably you are a police officer or honorary to be holding the local establishments in such high regard. Unfortunatley I and many others do not share your sentiments.
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56# BD Deluxe: “Presumably you are a police officer or honorary to be holding the local establishments in such high regard.”
Not yet, but with any luck I may be in the near future. My views are what they are because I see the value that service brings to the community – which spurs me to join and contribute. Not vice versa.
I have no intention of living my life on the island as a ‘spectator’; watching what goes on, whining about it, and doing nothing to affect positive change.
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SteveC
By your very own words and logic, doesn’t the fact that you have “not done one shift as a police officer mean that your complete ignorance precludes you from taking part in any serious discussion of the matter”? Aren’t you just another “armchair copper who has never walked a beat”?
The fact that cannot see the irony in your logic while merrily passing judgement on others makes you a perfect candidate for the boys in blue. Good luck!
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JohnP – I lived in St clements from the ages of 11 – 15 and had a knife to my throat 3 times by a group of kids a few years older than me. They were probably being intimidating and they had it in for me because i came from England and was obviously doing better than they were at school but still they hated everybody and had sharp knives to make people do what they wanted.
This was 8 years ago – I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if these kids at the time had mated and produced similar brats living on estates in st clements that do the same thing. I myself am terrified to go into town after 10pm on the weekend – i used to go clubbing and enjoy a pint but not anymore – i have kids climbing the scaffolding outside my house screaming abuse at anyone who will listen – when i call the police all they do is drive them home…
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Don’t worry Lucy, SteveC will soon be around to clean up the streets!!
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one thing i find about police wearing stab vests is that they look far less approachable than those who do not..
i think this relates to the necessity for improved community policing – more approachable police officers who know and are known by their community and realise when to hand out a slap on the wrist or a harsher deterrent as and when necessary..
providing police with tasers or guns, or increased stop and search powers would do nothing to improve police-community relations and they would no doubt deteriorate as a result..
as with any problem, we should not be concerned with the symptoms (i.e. the carrying of knives by teenagers) but instead we should be addressing what the source of this behaviour is amongst the youth of jersey..
by striving towards an improved, equal and all-inclusive society, we can reduce the incidence of such crimes and remove the perceived necessity of equipment such as these stab vests..
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There’s no knife crime in jersey. The chap who nearly died having been stabbed outside the Royal Yacht last year must have been making it up and his stab wounds were a figment of his imagination!
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#58 Foxtrot Oscar: “By your very own words and logic, doesn’t the fact that you have “not done one shift as a police officer…”
Ummm, I never said that I’d never done a shift as/with a Police Officer, or been involved in policing. I said that I wasn’t an Honorary. It would be a bit silly to signup to do a role that you have no experience of without investigating it first.
So no, there is no flaw in my logic – although one could now question your reasoning skills, having made such an assumption without any supporting evidence.
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SteveC
You did actually say that you were not a police officer or honorary.
“SteveC Posted
56# BD Deluxe: “Presumably you are a police officer or honorary to be holding the local establishments in such high regard.”
Not yet, but with any luck I may be in the near future. ”
Looks like supporting evidence to me SteveC.
Congratulations SteveC, you have just passed the Police Fact Bending Test. You will fly up the ranks.
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#64 Buster Gut: You totally missed the point o #63.
I did say that I wasn’t a police officer or honorary.
What I DIDN’T say, as suggested by Foxtrot Oscar, was that I’d never “done one shift as a police officer”, as that would be untrue as I have accompanied officers on numerous shifts in the past – and therefore have some first hand knowledge of the challenges they face.
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SteveC
So the police are prone to taking members of the public out on their shifts with them?!
And unless you ARE a police officer you could NOT have done a shift “as a police officer”…..that is impersonation and is highly illegal!
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My goodness, it’s taking them a while to work out your conundrum Steve!
And I thought that in Jersey everyone knew everything about everyone else…
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#66 BS Deluxe: “So the police are prone to taking members of the public out on their shifts with them?!”
Actually, I’m told that the Honoraries frequently do this with potential new recruits to give them a feeling for the job. I fact, I suspect that if you appeared at your local parish hall and explained your anti-police views, they’d happily take you out to observe their work – as an educational activity. I’d strongly advise it
It does, some times, amaze me how little ‘locals’ know abut ‘their’ island; its history, traditions, and practises. Perhaps we should start running citizenship courses?!
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