Lambs put down after dog attack
Tuesday 9th June 2009, 2:59PM BST.
Manx Loagthan sheep were brought to Jersey to graze the north coast.
TWO lambs from the flock of sheep grazing on the north coast were so badly savaged by a dog at the weekend that they had to be put down.
Shepherd Aaron Le Couteur, who visits the site daily, discovered the badly bitten lambs from the Manx Loagthan flock when he visited the National Trust land on Saturday morning.
It is believed the attack took place on Friday evening or early on Saturday morning.
Mr Le Couteur immediately called vet John Mather and following X-rays the decision was made to put them to sleep.
Trust lands manager Jon Horn said it was a tragic blow to the project.
Anyone with information should contact the police on 612612, Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555111, or Mr Le Couteur on 07797 740202.
See Tuesday’s JEP for full story.
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What happened to dogs having to be on a lead on the highways and not left to roam.
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How do these irresponsible dog owners live with themselves? I hope someone saw what happened & reports them
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Far too many dog owners are letting their dogs off the lead when they are not meant to.
These people should be reported and dealt with severely.
I am an animal lover and have pets but if an owner can’t keep their pet(s) under control they shouldn’t be allowed to keep them.
It’s terrible that these lambs were so badly savaged they had to be destroyed. What if those lambs had been a small child?
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These local dogs have probably never seen sheep and yes I agree that owners should have their dogs under control at all times but they are having their off road walks restricted all the time.
I am not defending the dog owners as I have had my horse chased on several occasions on the beach and even been chased up a lane by an irresponsible owner that’s dog was very lucky not to have been kicked while he was snapping at my horses heels.
Without wanting to open up the whole 4×4 can of worms again it is the same for horse riders. The new supposedly horse friendly gates that have popped up all over the countryside to enclose the sheep are not at all horse friendly. You can only open them in one direction & you have to quickly scoot through them before they swing shut & hit your horse on the bum causing him to shoot off or get injured due to being clobbered on the hock!
So before you race up doing 40mph behind a horse rider (or dog walker) on a green lane please be a little more patient until there is a suitable place for us to pull in as a lot of the ‘off road’ tracks & beaches for us are now either time restricted or fenced off so there is no alternative but to use the lanes as many of us have full time jobs & can only ride after 5pm.
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Now then, I’d be more worried about being gaffed by those horns than being bitten by some poor mutt whose lost his way home. Besides those sheep certainly don’t look like they got their qualies.
Everybody takes everything far too seriously!!
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Owners should be responsible enough to know that if there dogs cant be trusted with other animals off the lead then they need to be kept on the lead or taken for walks at a less popular time.
Everywhere seems to be sign posted to keep dogs on the lead but then its unfair on the well behaved dogs as they cant run etc and my dogs wont ‘relieve’ themselves whilst i have them on the lead. I dont think they should make it a ‘dogs on lead’ zone as were running out of places to let them off. If people dont live near the beach/dont have a car etc then its hard to find somewhere where they can let their dogs have some free time. Its the certain individuals that should be punished if there dogs are aggressive towards others. Its not the Dogs fault as its obviously the way they have been brought up.
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Thank you for your comments to date. The Trust very much appreciates your support on this. I read the comment regarding the difficulty in using the horse gates. We do appreciate that these can be tricky to use and we’d welcome speaking on this further with the horse riding community, so that we can find a way to make these more user friendly. If anyone wants to do this or to to discuss any other issue about the grazing project, please call the Trust office on 483193
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country girl, what was the purpose of your post, it wasn’t about you or horses, it was about sheep being killed by dogs
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Hi everyone,
PLEASE can we stop berating dog owners all the time (this could have been anyone, it may have even been a dog which was not with its owner for whatever reason don’t forget!)
I will continue to let my dog off his lead on the North Coast (one of our favourite walks where he can get the most exercise without people tutting, moaning and calling the honorary’s!), making sure he doesn’t walk to far ahead of me, and ensuring I have complete control on the rare occasion I meet other walkers etc.
I will continue to pick up my dog poo and walk for miles with it stinking in the bag because that’s what us RESPONSIBLE dog owners do. And, guess what, sometimes I tie it to a tree so I can collect it on my way back, which I always collect. So before you go mad about doo bags being left like this, they rarely get left there for more than an hour!
However to suggest, as people seem to be doing more and more, that there should almost be a complete ban on ‘dogs off leads’ is bloody ludicrous, and surely this could be deemed as cruelty to animals couldn’t it!?
As for country girl, my dog has chased a horse once on West Park, he wasn’t going to attack it or bite it, sometimes they just see movement and chase it (usually puppies) I think he was just jealous of it’s freedom. Looked a bit of a plonker when it outran him and he couldn’t see me cos he’d run almost all the way to St Aubin’s hahaha
Let’s start seeing dogs for the beautiful animals and companions they truly are. I’ve had my dog for two years and I’ve only ever come across a nasty dog twice in that two years, and both times the dogs were well controlled by their owners.
Yes I feel awful for these poor sheep, but in the UK they would have the added fear of foxes, let’s be glad they are free from that worry in Jersey.
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This aint good! I am a dog owner and i always take extra care when i’m out walking my dogs! I can remember two yrs ago when an elderly gentlemans dog was attacked by a dog of an irresponsable owner and also two baby swans were also attacked at a reservoir, whats going to be next a child? Sadly we get these dog owners that do not take extra care also leaving them to roam and foul everywhere! All dog owners cant be blamed because of the irresponsible few.
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The police aren’t interested when a dog bites a human. Compare and contrast.
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Unfortunately it was always a case of WHEN this is going to happen, never IF. Dogs are opportunists with no morals and some behaviours are hard wired to them. Yes, it is an owners responsibility to control their animals, but in areas such as Sorel more information could of been made clear that the animals there in the first place.
The notices are only placed on the gates allowing access to the said area. It is a bit of a hike until you come to some of them and realise what lays ahead. If the notices were placed in the car parks and other gates giving acess to the areas where the goats are, then this gives the opportunity to continue the walk or not. To be forewarned is to be prepared. Gates are always left open as well giving rise to the problem of sheep straying on to farming land and stray dogs doing same.
I have seen the sheep being chased by two large dogs and saw the result of the sheep stampeding up the stairs right in to two walkers. Where do the Trust stand legally if a walker is harmed by their sheep?
The normal hysterical cry of “it could of been a child/will be a child next” is an ignorant knee jerk reaction as anything with teeth will bite (apparently a childhood problem with me!) but socialisation plays a huge part in a dogs upbringing and there can be no comparison between a dog doing what it is bred to and savaging a child.
It is a lovely project in theory, but one I do not think that has been given much thought to in practice.
Cindy
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In Turkey the Anatolian Shepherd dog is left to live with the sheep (no human contact for days or weeks, he adopts the flock as his pack and defends it to the death from wolves etc, (he’s a big brave fearsome bugger).
Maybe that’s what we need here to protect this flock from normal dogs owned by sub standard humans.
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The gates are sprung loaded to close automatically. Any dog owner gaining access to the sheep area has ample time to read the sign and put their hounds on a lead.
If ignorantly decide to ignore that and then let their mutts run loose they deserve half an hour in some stocks in the Royal Square!
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Hi,
I agree with CM on this one, people seem to be targeting all dog owners. I do feel for the owner and the poor sheep, but I disagree with comments such as “Dogs are opportunists with no morals and some behaviours are hard wired to them.” I have a Springer Spaniel, and correct me if I’m wrong but he’s a gun dog and from a breeding line of working Springers. It took me 6mths of patient training but he is trained off the lead and wouldn’t chase any animal unless instructed to do so (which he never is), even when he’s off by himself he’ll ignore rabbits, birds etc.. all because I trained him not to chase as I did not get him for that purpose. The “Hard wired” behaviour isn’t there due to correct training. I admit there are a lot of folks out there that do have no experience with training a dog, but don’t group all of us into one category. I spent a lot of time training my dog so he could be trusted off the lead and enjoy his walks with out me wondering if he’ll run off, there are fewer and fewer places to let a dog run free and this is in a dogs nature. If I had to keep my dog on a lead at all times it would be cruel, and not much of a life for my poor dog.
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It is only a minority of owners who allow their dog(s) to foul the paths and beaches and fail to adequately control them when needed.
It is also not the dog that needs training, it’s the owners. Those that fail to respect the environment and other path/beach users, should not be allowed to keep their pets.
Most dog owners cope well with these situations, however the minority will always spoil it for the majority, unless these few owners learn to correctly control their animals.
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Maybe these stupid owners need to start adopting the procedures used by Cesar Milan – so effective!
There are no bad dogs just bad owners!
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Vegetarians look away now!!!!!!
Those who enjoy that succulent roast lamb and mint – take note…
Has anyone considered that the cute, cuddly darling little lambs roaming the fields (and perhaps the two little ones in question) are doomed to the slaughter house at around 3 to 5 months old?
Animals are hunted or slaughtered and eaten, either by humans or animals. So unless you are a vegetarian, please don’t berate a carnivore (in this case a dog) for doing what you condone, and what comes naturally (that is eating meat).
You might just buy your lamb off the supermarket shelf, but hey, remember, it wasn’t born in smartly packaged tubs – it was killed to satisfy your desires.
Finally – you wouldn’t be making such a fuss if a dog mauled and caused the euthanization of a bunny, rat, mouse, bird etc. etc.
So what’s the fuss….? Drop it!
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I’m sorry I can’t just leave this….
A while back there was a story on here about a cricketer who, in his day job, had ventured into someone’s courtyard (out in the country parishes can’t remember exactly where) and the dog who lived there knocked him over and gave him a bit of rough n tumble (it was a big dog)
The guy was quick to get his story (and his mug) in the JEP, but the poor dog was put down.
IN THE JEP RECENTLY THERE WAS AN ANIMAL SUPPLEMENT (I HOPE YOU REMEMBER IT)
AS A RESPONSIBLE DOG OWNER I READ IT! AND LO AND BEHOLD THERE WAS A BIG SECTION ON HOW TO TREAT AND ACT AROUND DOGS, STATING THAT DOGS ARE TERRITORIAL AND TELLING ADULTS AND CHILDREN THAT THEY SHOULD ACT RESPONSIBLY WHEN IN THE PRESENCE OF ANY DOG.
IT ALSO STATED THAT ONE SHOULD NOT ENTER INTO A DOGS TERRITORY IN THIS MANNER.
So now this poor poor family have to live without their beloved companion, all because some ignorant person decided he’d go round their property, then share his ‘awful’ story with the whole Island.
I am sickened. I’m sure the gentleman was frightened at the time, but he should have stood back later and seen it for what it really was.
I have had worse marks on my body from just playing with my dog! I would hope my dog would protect my house if someone were to trespass. Where does this decision leave ‘Guard Dogs’ nowadays? In fear that if they carry out their duties they will be put to sleep??
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Jay
put your dog into a situation whereby it has not had the opportunity to be socalised to human standard of what is acceptable behaviour and what is not and see how quickly it will revert to dog behaviour (ie: hard wired to chase) You are probably one of the people that believe working sheep dogs are brilliantly trained. They are but only to their own end as they fully expect to be able to kill the sheep at the end once secure in what ever area you have chosen to direct them to as the trainers have used what behaviour is hard wired into them to their benefit. Dogs do not have morals as they cannot distinguish between right and wrong, only what has upset their owner to provoke certain actions towards them to show their owners disaproval.
I am not arrogant enough to say my dogs will never chase, even though I have taught them not to as you can tell a child 1,000 times not to cross the road and the 1,001 time you are not looking off they go and get squashed.
Go to the headlands in question and see that not all gates with access to the areas occupied by the sheep have notices on. I did see today that bigger and more visable notices have been put up on more gates, but that is just closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, and there is still an absence of information in certain places that need covering.
The best way to think Jay is that not every one is as enlightened as you and put the hours of training with their dog. Not every one has access to sheep, cows, ducks etc to help teach their dog what is off limits according to human behaviour preferences. Many people walk in such areas to get away from the temptations of livestock to chase and the threat of confrontations betweens dogs and their “bad” owners. You should always be aware of exactly what you have on the end of the lead and that works both ways unfortunatly
To get the community to work with a project you need to make sure the information is out there so a choice of action is available and I am sorry, but it was not in this case. I said as much on the very day the sheep were released to the people so doing.
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I’m an animal lover, but although I like dogs I have cats instead mainly because my landlord won;t allow dogs.
However, has anyone considered that it may be a particular type of dog responsible for this…..I wouldn’t imagine a Chihuaha (?) or poodle doing something like this and there are plenty of other placid dog types too. If this was caused by a fighting dog then the owner is highly irresponsible and should be punished.
These dogs can be very dangerous and unpredictable and should ALWAYS be on a leash or at least muzzled.
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Dogs regularily exercised in the countryside should be trained off the lead from the start.I worry more about dogs always on the lead, whose owners have not trained them and therefore cannot trust them not to roam and to ignore sheep,cattle,domestic fowl, ducks, geese and horses. My working dog is trained to point and flush pheasant and rabbits. He ignores all else.He is never on a lead except when required by law on roads and public footpaths.Those dog owners that have not trained their dogs off the lead are at fault.
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Pluralist
That is great you have trained your dog to bring out its natural behaviour and be able to control it. Not everyone has the time, the facilities or knowledge to do so. Therefore, it is better to be proactive and not set your dog up to fail and keep it on the lead in areas of doubt. Many people do not have a recall over their dogs simply because they have not taught it one, but expect it to immediately come back at the sound of its name being called.
Dogs simply do not see things the way we do. You can come round the corner, be faced with a herd of sheep you are not expecting and be afraid, hence your heart rate goes up and you are sending out signals of fear in the form of body language and adrenalin and your dog can pick up on that and relate it to what is in front of it, be it a sheep or a kid coming round the corner on a bike and as 99.9% of animals are fight or flight, it will act accordingly depending on how quick you can take control of the situation again. I very much doubt this is the case in this awful attack, but I just want to put across that dogs are dogs with different acceptable behaviour according to them.
You are always going to get different levels of responsible ownership just as you get different levels of parental guidance.
It is such a shame that this had to happen to bring their presence to the public in such a negative way, when it could of been done in the first place positively and may have prevented it ever happening, though I doubt it
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I will not comment on the dog/owner debate and instead take a step back.
Why were these sheep, that are not native to the island, brouught here by the Trust?
These are grazers that will eat grass and fauna and have an impact on the environment. The Trust keeps saying it wants to keep the headlands natural and resist development then bring in such animals that by their nature will destry much of the plant life.
Does the Trust know how the presence of these animals might disturb birds that next in this area? Or any other wildlife that was naturally present?
What next…plant palm trees?
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Cindy Heys
I agree with where your coming from that not all dog owners take responsibility, but the point was that certain comments are putting all dog owners into the same irresponsible group. This group are the one’s who should not have a dog, also they are the ones that have no time, knowledge or facilities to train their pet correctly. I work full time have a very busy life but my dog is a priority in my life and a top responsibility, I also took the time to train him and spent many hours reading up on how to keep him, after all I am the one he relies on. I was trying to make the point that we are not all one in the same, most owners do keep our dogs responsibly. The owner of this dog is one of a few, but people seem happy to label every dog owner as irresponsible when really it is a minority that are responsible, otherwise there would be alot more articles reporting attacks by dogs which thankfully is a rarity.
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Cindy Heys
I agree with where your coming from that not all dog owners take responsibility, but the point was that certain comments are putting all dog owners into the same irresponsible group. This group are the one’s who should not have a dog, also they are the ones that have no time, knowledge or facilities to train thier pet correctly. I work full time have a very busy life but my dog is a priority in my life and a top responsibility, I also took the time to train him and spent many hours reading up on how to keep him, after all I am the one he relies on. I was trying to make the point that we are not all one in the same, most owners do keep our dogs responsibly. The owner of this dog is one of a few, but people seem happy to label every dog owner as irresponsible when really it is a minority that are responsible, otherwise there would be alot more articles reporting attacks by dogs which thankfully is a rarity.
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I am an animal lover and the question I would like answered is that why did the dog owner in question just leave the poor lambs in obvious pain without doing anything? Even an anonymous phone call to the States vet to say there were lambs dying on the cliffs would have been the humane thing to do so that they could have been put out of their misery.
This dog owner is typical of a lot of dog owners around now. They buy cute designer puppies that turn into big dogs then don’t give them adequate exercise or training. The dogs are not at fault as they are just doing what comes naturally. The owners however can’t even call themselves animal lovers if they leave livestock (not just the lambs, what about poultry left half dead as has happened to mine about 8 times in the past two years)so blame the horrible owners!!!
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Robert asks
“Why were these sheep, that are not native to the island, brouught here by the Trust?”
well, you never know, perhaps someone is taking Adrian’s advice and diversifying in case finance finally folds.
On the other if the sheep nibble away all the flora (didn’t know they ate fauna, Robert, perhaps the rabbits need to watch out) maybe there will soon be a justification for the land to be re-zoned for building.
I can see that happening not too far away where it is being destroyed by so called sport.
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All owners should teach their dogs to go to the down position immediately on command. This does not take long to teach, with the aid of a good trainer a normal dog should be OK in a weekend and proficient in a week, at this command.
Then whenever your dog goes to run in front of traffic or after other animals you just shout “down”, he goes down on his belly and you “proudly” walk up to him and put him on a lead until the danger etc is over.
If owners cant be bothered to put that much effort into owning a dog they should be banned from getting a licence.
Dogs have intelligence and they just love to be told what to do.
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I don’t have a problem with dogs or dog owners. I just have a problem with this particular owner who left these lambs to die.
Also, do people have to wheel out the old “and what if it had been a child” cliche? What about the poor lambs?? As far as I’m aware there aren’t any herds of wild children roaming the North Coast – they tend to accumulate and graze at Snow Hill don’t they?
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Well done Mr Fleming, finally a voice of reason with regard to the cliche!
My problem is also with the owner that left the lambs to suffer, should that be the case as it could of been a free running dog not under control of an owner.
Dogs should be taught control commands but it is not as easy as you have to have the right trainer, the right owner, the right circumstances and normal is only a word in the human dictionary.
I still feel the National Trust had done their research well as to the impact of this project, just not applied it with too much thought towards common sense in the area concerned.
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I would have thought that the dog should have been put down and its thoroughly careless owners brought before the Royal Court.
But that’s “not the Jersey Way”, is it?
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Magnolia Man
Why should the dog be put down?! Would you feel the same way if a ewe protecting her lamb attacked a walker and caused serious injury as they are perfectly capable of doing so, as is any mother with a baby?
It is all assumption and getting away from the fact that if provided with the correct and enough information no responsible owner would place their dog in a situation to fail, even if the fail part is a remote possibility due to training.
When you own a dog you are culpable for its actions. Unfortunately some owners refuse to accept thier dog is capable of any wrong.
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As a dog owner and animal lover I was very sad to hear that two lambs had to be PTS, they must have been terrified. However, as many of you have said it is also animal instinct to chase. My dog will leave anything I tell it to, whether it be chasing or sitting with food by his feet, 99.9% of the time.
I get up early to walk my dog as I am not allowed to take him on any beach after 10.30 (even if it is pouring with rain, the kids are in school or a beach which is so rocky it’s hardly used). I am not allowed to walk round the reseviour unless he is on a lead. I am not comfortable taking him to the woods on my own. So I am left like all other dogs owners with the cliff paths.
Take today for example, I was going back to the car and two ladies with a small child were just arriving. The young lad was trying to run up to my dog with his mother screaming at him not to as the dog might not be nice. Now I never allow my children to pat dogs unless they ask owners permission first but this mother nearly put the fear of god into her child and my dog is great with kids. It also completely confused my dog as he was by my side and was expecting to be patted but the child ended up screaming bad dog at him! This is not the first time this has happened. Two weeks ago I went to a different path where a bunch of nursery children threw stones at my dog!
After the throwing stone incident I took my dog and my friends dog up to where the sheep are and at the time I didn’t know they were there until I stopped and read the sign. I decided not to take the chance and turned round and headed back to the car with two very sad dogs as we hadn’t walked far. I had to do this mainly due to my friends dog being with me as a couple of days before he had chased a horse on the beach. Sorry horse owners but this was not his fault. When you get three horses running back and fore on a beach, with a young dog, what do you expect. He thought it was a game! So had I have taken him I’m sure that he would think it was great fun to chase the sheep. Why do you think we throw things for them, so they can chase them!!!!! It moves they chase.
Please can we dog owners have a couple of designated beaches to walk on and then if people with children etc want to go there they do so knowing that it is dog friendly. I for one am fed up of trying to avoid sheep, horses, children etc with very little choice of where I go.
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Jersey Girl, I’m really sorry to hear about your plight with ill-mannered, not to mention cruel children with your dog. Verbally abusing your dog for something it hasn’t even done is bad enough, but throwing stones at a dog – where do children get their ideas?? You should have reported the little darling nursery group to the JSPCA. My girlfriend and I would like to have a dog in the future, but given your experiences, I think we’ll stick with our cats (who for the record are a lot better company and more entertaining than people give them credit for).
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Dogs should not be kept on a lead. I have kept dogs for over 25 years. My dogs that were not forced to have a lead on got on with all animals, but I have noticed with my two recent dogs, when they see a sheep or cow or fox, they tend to pull and bark. Dogs should be allowed to mix with people and animals. How many children and even adults have been attacked by dogs since the lead law came in? This was very rare when dogs were allowed free to mix with people.
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