Bid to solve problem of drinkers in the park
Friday 12th June 2009, 2:58PM BST.
Parade Gardens
ST HELIER officials are to meet drinkers in Parade Gardens and voluntary organisations to address the problem of anti-social behaviour in the area.
Members of the St Helier Roads Committee agreed this week to invite people, including A Safer St Helier, street pastors, the town centre manager and the Redeeming Our Communities group to solve the problem of the drinkers in the park.
Families taking their children to the nearby playground have voiced concerns about how safe the area is for youngsters.
At the Roads Committee meeting this week, committee member the Rev Iain MacFirbhisigh said that St Helier was safe but that people had to work together to eradicate anti-social behaviour.
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the park crowd have been there for 20 odd years .
they were even there one wet day last week.
stood under a tree for shelter.
maybe they are going to get a club house to meet in, with a fridge full of beer no need for cash just show some i.d. and it will be deducted from income support.
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They were sheltering in the hospital doorway this morning with the 8% bavaria special at 0730!.
ID bracelets like Club Med what a great idea the States could then analyze the data and identify the peak time when ice cold beers are needed so minimising the waiting time for the customer.
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It is ilegal to consume alcohol in public, or is this rule only applied to night time.
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Round up all the drunks and drug users and put them in a cell for the night. This island is far too soft in dealing with antisocial problems.
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Round up all the drunks & drug users whatever age and put them in a cell for the night. This island is much too soft in dealing with antisocial behaviour.
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I have to pass them everyday, on the way to work and on the way back home again. Whilst I am all for the provision of a safety net to help people that have slipped down the ladder, I am not for paying my taxes to support their habit.
I have my own habits of drinking and smoking and I don’t expect the tax payers of Jersey to supplement my vices.
It’s not like they aren’t looked after well enough, they all look well fed, clean most of the time, always got a sun tan, don’t work, sit about in the parks and gardens of St Helier and always got ciggies and beer…
Actually whilst writing this it sounds that good that I think I might join them…
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Fear an over reaction,as you say they have been there for years are old hands,and while they may look a bit Motley,don’t smell like Chanel no 5. and sing a bit ,when have they actually attacked anyone…? I don’t recall them running riot and threatening western civilization as we know it, surely this is a vain cosmetic exercise,don’t hide them from your children,let them serve as an example of untreated illness….
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About time this issue was addressed.
Every day these people are getting plastered right outside the childrens playground and I think it’s disgraceful that it’s been allowed to continue so long. By mid-afternoon many of them are so drunk that they are fighting, swearing, shouting, urinating, all in full view of the children and public in general.
Why in gods name do the parish give these people CASH?! It really is simplicity itself to give them food vouchers, redeemable only for food – if they want alcohol, they can get their hair cut & get a job and earn it. Instead of giving their cash handouts to pay for rent in the shelter they simply sleep outside and use the money to get drunk.
Whilst this continues I don’t see the point even using ratepayers money to keep the park looking nice, may as well let the grass grow long and not replace the flowers – normal, decent folk cannot enjoy the grounds anyway as the hobos make this unfeasible and thus they are the only ones enjoying it.
Frankly I cannot see what good a bunch of pastors is going to do, there is a requirement here for action rather than bible-quotes and more of the ridiculous ‘homeless peoples choir’ etc.
Please, someone from the welfare board – take a walk through the gardens, any time on any day, and then see if it still seems acceptable to give cash to these people.
In the good old days we used to deport these troublemaking vermin, unfortunately the liberal crew have deemed that somehow we owe them the right to automatic handouts. I weep for the future.
Apologies for the rant but it gets my goat when I read that the Citizens Advice / Brook Centre etc will have no more cash from the government yet they are happy to continually fund these all-day-drinkers.
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Why has it taken 20 years to think of this?
I had brought this up eons ago……
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Could they not be used to encourage kids to lay off the alcohol… “start drinking young, this is what you’ll become”?
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These guys do not harm what so ever, how about sorting out the under 18s that are getting drunk down there instead!
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With all the money the States have squandered recently they could surely accommodate these people in the Royal Square with a permanent soup kitchen.
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Camelia (12) – they do have a permanent soup kitchen, it’s called the Lewis Street Shelter.
They are not allowed in if they are drunk; hence, they therefore choose to live on the streets.
No sympathy whatsoever.
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truthseeker(7) correct these guys and gals just sit about and look untidy.
and are a blot on the landscape for those wearing rose tinted spectacles.
as the gap between the haves and have nots gets wider i can only see the ranks swelling.
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Until they commit an offence leave them alone.
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Stop giving them handouts & they will become a problem – stealing to fund their habits.
Maybe a bit of care & understanding might help solve the issue.
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#12 Camelia,
Perhaps the States could build and display a statue for them. Seems like we haven’t had a new statue for far too long ..
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Is it any wonder people want to drop out of a society that espouses a “greed and get on at all costs even if you have to stitch others up” culture? Maybe their morals and ethics are troubled and they find it hard to face reality, so prefer to be drunk?
Others might laugh but I know some who prefer an altered state of reality to the real thing as they hate it so much. If the authorities are really interested in resolving these issues may I kindly suggest they get at the root causes and stop blaming alcohol?
They are free to waste their time and our money on barking up the wrong tree, if they so wish, as there is no one in a position to stop them.
My analysis is that since Jersey started its decline 20-30 years ago there have been growing numbers of alcoholics and drug users, as with suicides. Anyone spot the correlation between things getting worse and the rising figures yet? A decline in morals, ethics, a caring society and happiness will always result in a corresponding rise in drug abuse, alcohol abuse and the final sanction of suicide.
Encourage greed, self service, a lack of ethics and morals, and you set in motion a chain of events, that will go to the very core of society, and which will more likely than not, cause dramatic change or even revolution at some stage when enough drop out of regular society, as they realise it is bad for life and living.
When the States realise survival is not an aspiration and that a decent quality of life is what people want, then they might start to get somewhere. Until then we shall just see the numbers swelled with each reduction in our standard and quality of life over here. I predict a further rise when GST goes up to 5%.
Make a fairer society for all and things will improve, till then carry on as normal and let the have nots use the parks.
If the haves want to make comments about the have nots because they spoil their rose coloured view of the island, that is their perrogative. Help these people a bit more, not just monetarily but with compassion and they might not need the comfort of their Southern Comfort. Then as if by magic most if not all might find a better life is worth living, and may not need a public place to survive in.
These are my own views from many years of watching good old Jersey “evolve”.
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I always thought it was common knowledge that you don’t give cash to alcoholics, as the first thing they’ll do is go straight to the nearest off-licence.
Yet the parish is happy to give cash every week to a whole group of alcoholics. So it’s no surprise that by the early evening most of them can barely stand.
“A bit of care and understanding might solve the issue” – surely this is a joke?
What would help solve the problem, is stopping their cash and using food vouchers so if they want luxuries such as alcohol and cigarettes then the work-shy ethanol-worshippers can get off their benches and make themselves useful.
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Tobias,in what I suspect will be a waste of time,but just might help – Alcoholism is the Fourth biggest illness on the planet,not my opinion,The World Health Organisation…..Do you really think these guys want to live without the comfort of love Health,family and belonging…don’t you get it..? they don’t get invited to gala dinners and park their Mercs at the golf club.They only have their illness and each other….
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Adrian (18) – All I can say is hear hear! I agree with every word you have said, and people with such a shallow view of these poor misunderstood souls should maybe take some time out to understand what drove them there in the first place.
Not as black and white as some would care to believe.
There but for the grace of God go all of us.
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Tobias 13,if it was a member of your family would you have more compassion for them?Think these people should have to work for their benefits by doing voluntary work and filling in for parish workers when ill,there must be lots of jobs that need doing in every parish and could just give them the self esteem they need to motivate them to better things if they want to.
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Flymo 17,just thought if States could see kitchen in their back yard they would do something more positive about it.
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As per usual, the bleeding-heart liberals start with the “what if it was someone in your family” irrelevant comments.
Well, if it were someone in my family, I would be rather peeved at the parish giving them cash every week to fuel their addiction.
As alcoholism is apparently “the fourth biggest killer” then surely it is stupidity personified to give more cash to alcoholics (whether they be my family, your family, or even the Pope’s family!)
Just because they might say, “it’s to buy a cup of tea” – tea is the furthest thing from their wine-pickled minds.
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Perhaps the next person that thinks we need to show “care and understanding” to these people would like to take a five-year old child to the playground whilst the bench-dwellers fall over each other right outside, swearing and fighting and vomiting.
Take off those rose-tinted specs and see how different those “harmless, poor misunderstood souls” seem then.
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If all you bleeding hearts posting here picked one of the wasters up each, took them home and looked after them we would not have problem.
NO !
thought not
I have the greatest respect for the voluntary staff at the shelter who give so much in an attempt to look after these people, but even they have to sometimes ban a few individuals from their premises because they are violent and disruptive (note this those saying they are non violent ), these do end up in police cells when they have become so out of it they have defecated themselves and puked all over, and given diseases to those trying to help them. Maybe that the answer for those who have sunk so low even the charities refuse to help them.
I have had dealings with them during my voluntary work, and speak from experience. Some are “OK”, others have sunk so low there is no way out but a gutter littering slow death.
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Truthseeker – as you are so sympathetic to these wasters, maybe they can move in with you??
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Giving them vouchers is not the answer either as they sell them on and still buy the alcohol. Probably a better idea to pay the shelters direct.
When I was a child the parish used these people to sweep the roads and they didn’t get anything unless they did some work…….was this such a bad idea?
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Adrian #18
Had you considered the “growing numbers of alcoholics and drug users” etc might be simply down to the fact that we have a growing population? I bet if you extrapolate the number of alcoholics and drug users based on today’s population and that of the so called glory years 30 years ago I reckon you’d find no difference in the number of alcoholics and drug users per head of population.
Some people drink because they are lazy, some because they enjoy it, others because they are bored. Not all people drink because of the state of today’s society.
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Extraordinary how many comments here clearly have no real knowledge yet plenty of unkindness, you have to live with any conscience you have not yet killed off…how rewarding does it feel,once you’ve parked all the bravado and self kiddology…how does it feel ..really ?
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Alcoholism (like other forms of drug use) is often due to a lack of diagnosis of mild mental illness. Unforunately self-medication by alcohol is common place and people can become fully-blown alcoholics before anyone even bothers to suspect they may have an illness.
Of course there are some people who simply take the easy way out of life and work the system so they can live on benefits, but there will always be those who are genuinely ill and who the same system failed.
I know some young people who are already on their way to becoming alcoholics, who arediagnosed with mental illness but who simply are not getting the care needed to help them make a go of life. They have great potential and could be shown that mental illness does not have to stop you achieving but they need support not JUST medication, they need to know that they are worthwhile people and that they have a future, even if it requires medication for a lifetime. Somehow they are being led to believe that mental illness will stop them from achieving anything, and that couldn’t be further from the truth!
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Shame on those who have been so quick to condem.Behind every face there is a story and I hope those who have done nothing but condem ever fall on hard times. Yes there are those who are there through their own fault and as much as you try to help it will never be accepted. However there are many who are in this plight through no fault of their own. I used to work close by where many of these people lived everyday I would say good morning to them and give a smile which cost so little and always I would have a good morning back often with a smile.I never gave money but on occasion especially during the winter would give money to the local cafe in the area who would ensure they had a hot drink and a bacon roll now and then.As time went on I lisitened to some of their stories. One was heart rendering.All I can say is those who condem let us hope that you never fall on hard times. You may not think you will get that low but neither did many of those now who sit in the park with drink for comfort.
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For all of you who feel sorry for them ‘poor lost souls’, why bother?
They clearly dont have any respect for themselves so why should anyone else care about them?
They choose to get up, buy their drink and get wasted by lunchtime. No one forces them.
Its an absolute disgrace that they are allowed to ruin a beautiful spot in town, the only 1 I think of.
I never ever take my child to the Parade park, to play on the grass or picnic in the area and im not the only one,cos of those layabouts.
Those drunks are the only ones enjoying the area that WE tax payers pay to keep looking nice and tidy.
Its a disgrace!
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joker it is well known that to combat high levels of stress people resort to alcohol and drugs. Even allowing for an increased permanent resident population, which we have now, I strongly suspect we have more alcoholics and drug takers and suicides now than before, as a percentage of the population.
As a pointer why fence off all multi-storey car parks in Jersey? Why is it deemed necessary to do this when it wasn’t deemed necessary before? I believe the answer is that it doesn’t portray the government’s Life Enriching ethos in the correct light. Therefore I believe remove this highly visibility act and it takes the spotlight away from the real issues of stress, depression and despare over here that some feel.
I must admit I have never heard of someone becoming an alcoholic because they were lazy. This is new to me. I myself would say that the majority of alcoholics and drug takers are doing so to get away from reality as they don’t like it, or actually hate it. Can you honestly say that today’s society has much to offer people compared to 20-30 years ago?
20-30 years ago:-
a guarenteed job for most.
lower taxes.
a guarenteed old age pension.
a guarenteed work pension for most.
a promising future to look forward to.
no war on terror.
less stress.
more compassion and caring.
more free time.
more children with 2 parents.
less traffic.
more room.
less greed.
more pride in things.
more people who gave a damn.
lower crime.
no need to look your house up when going out.
no need to lock up an unattended car.
etc, etc.
No it is the oppsite of the above and getting worse all the time.
jambo why are these people wasters in your opinion?
If they prefer to be drunk why is this? Maybe it is because it makes them happy and helps them forget reality? If this is the reason for most being drunk this means they are sick of today’s society. If this is so this is a damning indictment of today’s world would you not agree?
Maybe if the government thought a bit more about people instead of big business things might stop going downhill?
I believe if people were genuinely happy they wouldn’t need to get drunk and that this is the real core of the matter. However to admit this the government would have to admit they had failed. Do you think they would ever do that? I believe therefore that it is better to pretend everything is hunky dorey even when it isn’t. This means you don’t have to address the real issues but can do window dressing to appear to be getting it sorted.
The answer is to change society for the better so that those who hate reality so much now won’t need the crutch of a drink in future to get by. Don’t treat the symptoms, treat the core issue which is society and modern work practices in my opinion.
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Truthseeker – it feels good. Are you one of the disciples?
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Everybody encounters problems in life, it’s how you deal with them that make you the person you are…hence you don’t see me sitting in a park drinking white lightening. Well, not since i was 15!
I have the motivation to get up and go to work and live my life the best i can.
People go out of their way to help them, providing free councelling, free shelters, including many unpaid volunteers…and what do these people do in response??? That’s right, they sit in the park and drink!!!
Bring back public hangings, that’s what i say!
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Jambo, you’re right that everyone encounters problems in life but you forget that everyone’s problems are unique.
When people I get to know find out all the things I’ve been through in my life they are amazed that I haven’t just thrown in the towel. Personally I have only actually met one person who has been through anything like the level of problems I have.
On the other hand I know people whose only actual ‘problems’ are feeling like they are too tired to get up for work, and they really mean it, but they fail to realise that staying up watching rubbish on TV till 4am is why they are so tired!
Honestly, what you deem a problem in your life could be something that doesn’t even cause a blip on the radar of problems for someone like me and what I know in my life!
I’m not one of these drinkers but I know that I easily could have gone that way, I have often wanted to throw in the towel and given everything I’ve been through (none of it my fault might I add) I know that no-one who knows me would judge me for it. I also know it could take just one more major life issue for me to decide I’ve had enough and take to drink or drugs to block it all out…
And I do have a supportive, loving family and a good network of friends, not everyone has that luxury.
It’s worth remembering that there but by the grace of God go you.
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Adrian
I believe the car parks were fenced off because of one family’s campaign to do so after the tragic death of their son/brother. There are still many more places to jump to your death so I’m not sure what your point is.
My “lazy” comment was a poor choice of words, I meant those that take the easy option being that alcohol is freely available and easier to get hold of these days. You have a wide choice of alcohol and many more places to obtain it from then you did 30 years ago. Perhaps it is more a reflection on the liberalisation on alcohol rather than the pressure of society itself.
Here we go again….
guarenteed job for most. – Err… still the case today.
lower taxes. – Lower levels of service for fewer people back then.
a guarenteed old age pension. – Still guaranteed last time I checked.
a guarenteed work pension for most. – Really?
a promising future to look forward to. – Still the same for most, don’t forget you’re the cynical one.
no war on terror. – Cold war instead which was far more of a threat to people in Jersey.
less stress. – People were as stressed back then, just a different type.
more compassion and caring. – Quantify?
more free time. - I have plenty thank you.
more children with 2 parents. – More people stuck in a loveless sometimes miserable marriages as it was frowned upon for a woman to leave their husband
less traffic. – Less people who owned a vehicle because they were less well off to own one.
more room. – Less things to do
less greed. – I think you’ll find we were in the market economy 30 years ago with the same model.
more pride in things. – Quantify
more people who gave a damn. – Quantify
lower crime. – Lower population.
no need to look your house up when going out. – Still don’t always lock mine now.
no need to lock up an unattended car. – You could still do that today.
So not that different when you think about it.
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I do have sympathy on those who’ve fallen on hard times. However, the rest of us are not to blame and should not have to listen to drunkards and drug addicts annoying innocent residents.
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Alcoholism is not an illness. Flu is an illness, mumps is an illness. Alcoholism is an self-induced addiction bought on by consuming too much alcohol. They “rack disciprine” to quote a phenomenally accurate Trey Parker and Matt Stone. The same way as weight can be lost through proper diet, exercise and discipline, and smoking can be abandoned through discipline, so alcoholism can be stopped by the precisely the same thing.
People who want to argue any different can try. But that’s the way it is. Simple as. It’s self induced, whether it’s bought on by another problem like depression is irrelevant, i refuse to class an alcoholic and a manic-depressant in the same category, because they can’t be.
The illness is justifiable, the consequences of the actions one takes to resolve it fall on their own heads.
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Well said, Jambo:
” People go out of their way to help them, providing free councelling, free shelters, including many unpaid volunteers…and what do these people do in response??? That’s right, they sit in the park and drink!!! ”
SPOT ON.
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Ignorance is bliss…
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Truthseaker 42
I am so glad your blissfull, but watch the units !
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‘Bliss’ is not working and spending your days sunbathing in the park whilst drinking white lightening with your friends!
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Given that I know a lot about manic depression (by the way, it’s not called that anymore) John I can assure you that an alcoholic and a manic depressive are sometimes one in the same!
Don’t get me wrong, I do not condone alcoholism, but there will always be people who do not realise they are mentally ill, who are failed by society (in getting a diagnosis) and who simply use alcohol where getting a diagnosis would have got them anti-depressants. I have seen people whose own family just continue to put up with their bizarre behaviour because they are either too ignorant about mental illness, too woosy or too scared to realise that something must be wrong and maybe it is time to call a doctor. Sometimes family can help with a diagnosis, other times they unwittingly prevent the person getting the help they desperately need.
The mind is a far more complex thing than people give it credit for and unfortunately alcohol can seem like a very good medicine (albeit a temporary one) for many mental illnesses.
And please note that by self-medication I am not meaning people that ‘drink to forget’, I am talking about people who drink because they know it helps block out the voices in their head, that it calms down their mania and makes them seem less weird in front of others, that it is the only thing that gives them the confidence to get out the door in the morning to keep their job. Of course, unfortunately, it gets out of hand, but when it seems to help it isn’t a surprise that this happens.
I detest alcoholism, but unpaid volunteers, while well meaning, are not the answer. Until alcoholics are given a full and thorough psychiatric assessment to find out if there is an undiagnosed mental illness everything else society does is fairly pointless! Some will just be people who can’t be bothered but I think you’d be surprised by how many have genuine mental illness, and possibly quite severe mental illness at that.
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Actually John, if you were having auditory and visual hallucinations (remember that you’ll be terrified and won’t talk to anyone about it because society are too ignorant to realise that hearing voices does not make you a killer) what would you do?
If you were going to permanently alienate all your friends and family because you were terrified of going out in crowds (remember most of the public are too ignorant of mental illness aor too selfish to persist with people who don’t seem to put in the effort) but a couple of drinks could help, what would you do?
You’re talking about mental illness as if it is rational and as if sufferers must know what is going on in their head… they don’t. I don’t doubt that not knowing why your mind is doing what it is doing, or even what it is doing must be utterly terrifying.
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Truthseeker, please clarify your comment
Do you mean that anyone here that disagrees with your view is ignorant? If so, that’s the height of arrogance and this comment is merely farcical.
Or by “ignorance” were you pertaining to the alcohol-fuddled brains of the bench-dwellers that are the subject of this discussion? They certainly do seem quite blissful, well at least when I pass in the mornings – by the evening when I return, they are no longer blissful but either aggressive-drunk or so inebriated that they cannot stand
And, in answer to your earlier question; it feels just dandy, thanks.
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I love the reactionary peasant mentality of the vox pop over here. Why we reintroduce work-houses for these dangers to society? That would do the trick wouldn’t it!
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Strange how such a short post can fire up such rabid prejudice, so once again for the hard of learning…Alcoholism is an illness…official.
Ignorance however appears to be chosen.
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My ex-friend handles is a bench-dwelling drunk. I have tried to help him so many times but he just goes back to his old ways, so i’ve given up!
Drink is not the answer handles! These people they need serious help…
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Truthseeker
Well said. I’ll admit that occasionally it occurs in people who are workshy and have been raised in a benefit culture and that’s just the lifestyle they see around them but there is mostly a serious reason (and often an undiagnosed illness) behind alcoholism.
And as someone who has had to go through withdrawal from prescribed, necessary medication, I know just how terrible withdrawal from any kind of drug can be and I can see why many people never fully achieve it. Maybe that’s why all the volunteers in the world will struggle to make any real difference without proper pyschological services being made available.
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My goodness, what this thread proves is how ignorant and un-charitable some of you Jersey folk are, I think Tobias takes the biscuit for extreme right wing propaganda.
How many of you would swap places with a homeless alcoholic? Do you really think their existence is that pleasurable?
I’d quite happily provide you with enough cash to get drunk for a month if you want to take part in an experiment whereby you live on the streets and do without all regular creature comforts. How does that sound?
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So, alcoholism is an illness, as recognised by the WHO. ok, fine. So tell me, what exactly would you prescribe to an alcholic in terms of medication?
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53. Why assume they need medication,Alcoholism is a three fold illness, a Physical allergy,now I grant you that is hard to get your head around,but they are actually allergic to alcohol as it triggers the compulsion to take more of the very thing that is causing the problem,A mental obsession kicks in, and they are spiritually bankrupt..the equivalent of a disappointment with themselves and life itself that is unimaginable. usual approaches fail,so a detoxification along with learning new life skills is what starts the road to recovery,so why don’t they all want it,most feel outside society,condemned anyway,and don’t know that recovery even exists,usually a recovered alcoholic has far more chance of reaching and helping,which is why Alcoholics Anonymous is the best hope, started by a stockbroker and a Doctor in 1934 remains the best way for anyone struggling,my hope is someone reading this may get help indirectly..though there is no free wi fi in the park , a laptop or the wherewithal to access our intellectual comments.
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Leah Holmes, Truthseaker.
You are both on the wrong track.
Its the antisocial, downright intimidating behaviour of the wasters, that this thread is all about.
We have psychiatric departments to deal with the genuinely sick, I make an assumption from her post that Leah is aware they do not do a bad job.
The legions of the lost can get drunk as often as they like for all I care, but why cant they do it where they will not cause offence or be seen or heard.
Parade gardens is a bit on display, and what mother wants her kids to play in the still warm vomit ?
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Ok so we’re all agreed that they need more help…in that case, back to my original (apparently exreme right-wing) comment – can we stop giving them CASH.
As per the excellent post by Nellie Macon, their shelter rent could be paid directly as it’s simply going from the Parish to the States, thereby negating any need for these people to have cash at all – they are fed and clothed at the shelter. Hence, no cash = no alcohol = they can begin to sober up and start looking for work and they will no longer bother decent folk.
Voila, everyone’s happy, problem solved.
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So much derogatory comment and so much bile in many of the comments published above.
No one, so far, has bothered to press for medical treatment to help Jersey’s alcoholics, whose numbers far, far exceed the denizens of Parade Gardens.
They are just the obvious alcoholics. There are doubtless hundreds more, quietly drinking themselves to death, in private homes all over the island.
Alcohol addiction affects many more people than the addict him or herself. Family members, friends and work colleagues must also be taken into the equation.
There is also the number of road deaths directly caused by the excessive consumption of alcohol to be considered as well.
But we rarely consider the wider picture here. It’s “not the Jersey Way”. The men and women drinking themselves to death in Parade Gardens cannot be told “There’s another boat in the morning”.
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Tobias I respect your moderated view and courage to say so,you are right, cash only exacerbates the situation,but if they were heroin addicts,then Methadone would be provided by the State, there is no such alcohol substitute available,and everyone is correct in saying it is neither pleasant or desirable to have drunk folks falling about the place,however they are human beings,somebody’s Dad ,brother,husband and yes they could be moved on, but like traffic bottlenecks,move it to one place ,it congregates somewhere else, every town and city has these people, it is unlikely we can sweep ours under the carpet any more than anywhere else , we can however refrain from demonisisng the people themselves.and be glad it’s not us.
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Truthseeker…Adolf Hitler was also a human being and could have been someones’ dad/brother/husband… however, I wouldn’t want him hanging around in the Parade Gardens either.
I also respect your view and if these drunks were just keeping to themselves (like the older ones tended to do) then I’d agree with you – they’d be harming nobody so each to their own, and if possible give them every opportunity for assistance with their addiction.
However, the new generation of all-day-drinkers in the park seem to have little respect for anyone around them and have no qualms about fighting and vomiting etc in full view of young children in the playground. I’ll admit that my view of these people is extremely negative and I make no apologies for this as it’s come about through them consistently earning my disrespect.
You did make a very good point in that we should not be demonising the individuals themselves as I suppose their ‘illness’ is the root cause of their anti-social behaviour. This further strengthens my argument that we should stop giving them cash and therefore remove the temptation…they might even thank us for that one day.
At the moment we have the ludicrous situation whereby the Parish gives them cash to pay rent at the Shelter…but how many off-licences do they go walk past before they get to the Shelter?! Surely it’s just common sense.
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Actually PJG, my point was not that they do a good job (Jersey quite clearly runs very low on psychological and psychiatric services). What I am saying is that the reason many people do not get the help they need in the first place is because of the ignorance of society. Then the same ignorant society has the cheek to moan when these people self-medicate for a genuine illness!
I believe some people do unwittingly choose the alcoholic lifestyle, maybe they were raised with it and it’s all they know. BUT, and it is a huge BUT, we cannot judge those who are genuinely ill (and this will be a large percentage of them) and simply didn’t get the help they needed or didn’t know they needed it! They were failed by the States, by the medical professon maybe, by their family and friends, possibly even by you and me.
I don’t think the behaviour of these alcoholics should be tolerated but neither do I think it is helped by the level of ignorance that has been seen on here.
So, you want to make a difference? Lobby the States to put far more funding into psychological services. Educate yourself and others on mental illness and help get rid of all the ridiculous myths that surround it. For instance, did you know that you are less likely to be harmed by someone with a mental illness? True! And yet if you listen to society they will always assume otherwise. Find out just how common hallucinations, self-harm, depression etc actually are and stop them being taboo subjects. God forbid that today’s society is passing the same ignorance onto their kids!
Educate yourselves, educate others, lobby the States and actively do something. All that’s happening here is that people are trying to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted. Hardly helpful.
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Tobias… it’s a great idea, but if they don’t have cash they’ll steal. If they can’t steal easily they’ll end up mugging people to get the money. It is an addiction so much as we like to think they have a choice, once they are addicted that rationality is gone and it is a need!
People have been known to legitimise stealing because they couldn’t afford to feed their children. An alcoholic NEEDS the alcohol, they’ll do whatever they need to to get it.
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Their shelter rent is paid direct to the shelter, in the form of Income Support.
Their rent is £90 odd a week, then the remainder of their I.S. is given to them in cash (I know this for a fact, I know people who live there).
Why they are given the extra money is beyond me, and this is what is wrong .They get fed, watered, have laundry facilities so what are they going to spend the money on.?? Yes, drink.
That money could be put towards providing more help for them, not so they can then go and spend it all on cheap booze and drink in the park all day long.
But, some of them dont want help. Some dont think they have a problem. And some are happy to go and sit in the park in the sunshine with their ‘mates’ drinking away all out tax payers money.
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62 Honey – Thank you for this information – that’s what’s so useful about these forums – not just reading other people’s views and expressing your own but also finding out the real facts.
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Self-medication? Brilliant! does this mean I can get a prescription from my doctor (remembering that these are free now) and use it as beer tokens in the pub?
Seriously, though, some of the people who are defending the drunks are the first to jump up and down about underage drinking – I think I actually saw one person comment at the start that we should sort them out first. How can you possibly expect the police to stop underage drinking in the streets when adults are sat in parks drinking all day? Not only does it set a bad example to kids but the alcoholics are actually drinking alcohol in the areas that we want our children to be in! This article isn’t about helping the alcoholics overcome their addiction/illness/laziness (however you think of them) it is about the fact that they spend all day in a public park and despite what some people are saying, they are a nuisance. This is one of the few areas in town that has a childrens playground built. Surely when this was put there the idea was not to have drunk and (often) abusive adults. Mothers will not want to take their children there, both because they will worry about the safety of their children and many will also not want to hear the sexual comments that ARE made by many of the intoxicated people that are there.
I am not saying we should disown or banish these people from the island, I have a drink problem myself. Not to the extent that we talk about but I know I drink too much for my health as a large number of adult males in Jersey do, but it IS wrong for a large group of adults to congregate and drink from as early as 7 in the morning in a public park. It removes the park from many others as a usable space whether it be down to fear or disgust. Public areas should never have this kind of restriction.
For those that defend – the people that meet are not pleasant to be around and make a walk through the park an unpleasant one. I am a smoker and to walk to work through the park and be harrassed by people for a cigarette whilst they sit there at half past eight with a beer in hand is both annoying and often threatening. I happen to think I can cope with thinhs like this and I don’t like the walk through there, so I dread to think how someone with less “arrogance” than myself would feel.
If the park were filled with heroin addicts leaving syringes everywhere there would be uproar from even people like truthseeker. So why do we allow drug users to do what they do just because the drug is legal?
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Cancer is an illness, alcohol is a choice.
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As per people disliking drunks yes it would be nice if no one got drunk but this isn’t going to happen. I am sure nearly everyone has got drunk at one time or another and many have vomited or wet themselves. It used to be seen as big to see how many pints one could down before passing out or puking up, presumably nothing has changed since I was youung? Society unfortunately has condoned this practice much as with smoking. As both are addictive is it any wonder some get hooked and can’t give up? If the government were truely concerned with our health and well being why allow such addictive substances to be consumed? Also why allow the conditions for the necessity to get drunk all the time to be present in peoples’ lives?
The government make lots of money through this legal drug as they do through smoking. Why do you think they allow it? It couldn’t be to do with tax revenues could it? So we are where we are because successive governments think it is acceptible to allow these practices due to their high tax returns even though inevitably there are those who end up dependent on these drugs, as well as associated deaths and illness.
So since it is legal why do people complain about it when they know that there is always a risk of addiction to these things? A bit daft isn’t it?
The most incredible thing is that youngsters are encouraged to drink and smoke so perpetuating this issue to the next generation. You think anyone with common sense would look at these issues and sort it out.
As per smoking this is even worse than drinking as it leads to many more deaths through passive smoke etc. How many have died due to others inconsideration over the years? I am so pleased that smoking is now banned in public as I can now at least go out to a restuarant on the odd occasion without being exposed to others bad habits, and associated risk of things like lung cancer.
As for syringes I expect to see a rise in these getting left around the place as more take up thehabit and become addicted. The reason is that as things go down hill further over here people will resort to other means to try and blot the nightmare that is modern day living as they see it out of their minds, by being drunk or high.
Think about it why get drunk, what is the point? The only point I can see is that people prefer to be in an altered state of reality. However stay that way for too long and you become addicted. Maybe modern society needs a good looking at and a major overhaul? Maybe make peoples lives more worth living and you might find other dependences fall away as these crutches are no longer required to cope in a better world?
The options to this is to carry on as we are or make things worse and exasibate the situation still further. Maybe when many more are incompasitated due to drink and drugs the government might wake up to these issues? Until then I don’t expect much action.
Since many perceive this situation as so bad why on earth do people do it? Would you in your right mind do this? If not why are others happy to do this to themselves? The cause needs addressing not the side effects. Until this is resolved don’t expect anything to get better, on the contrary expect it to get worse.
These are my own opinions on this issue from what I have observed of life so far, and it doesn’t bode well for the future.
Indeed it is a sad world we live in.
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You’ve got to love drunks L O L.
A man and his wife were woken by a loud banging on the door at 3:00 am.The man gets up and goes to the door where a drunken stranger is standing in the pouring rain asking for a push,
“Not a chance it’s three o’clock in the morning” the husband says angrily slamming the door and returning to bed
who was that ?,asks the wife
Just some drunk asking for a push.
Did you help him ?, she asks
No I did not, it’s 3:00 am and pouring down
Well you’ve got a short memory,can’t you remember last winter when we broke down and those two guys helped us ? shame on you being so mean, go and help.
sighing that sigh we all know so well he tumbles out of bed,throws on some clothes and runs out into the pouring rain,
he calls out into the dark,Hello are you still there…?
Yes, comes back the answer out of the pitch black night.
Do you still need a push…? asks the husband
now soaked through
Yes please comes back the reply
Well where are you asks the husband…?
Over here on the swing ..replies the drunk..!
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I do wish people would stop throwing around sarcastic comments such as “it’s not the Jersey way”.
This so called “Jersey Way” is pretty much the way of a lot of societies and not unique to the island so please think up a more creative expression if you want to disrespect the people of the island….who, by the way, also have a right to an opinion just like you!
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I do wonder how many of those on here that are moaning about these alcoholics also encourage others to drink.
And by ‘encourage’ I mean… when someone asks if you want a drink and you explain that you don’t take alcohol you get the following assumptions:
1. you’re a recovering alcoholic
2. you’re being polite, of COURSE you must drink, if they keep asking then eventually you’ll say yes, no matter how much it starts to annoy you
3. you’re pregnant
4. you think you’re superior to them
5. you’re one of those really dull people
6. you’re one of those ‘religious nuts’
What experience shows is that if in a drinking establishment you refuse a drink, you’re pretty much guaranteed to be left out of the group for the night, either because the drinkers are embarrassed at their guaranteed drunken behaviour or because they assume you’re dull, you’ll also be laughed at by at least a couple of people, mostly in the form of behind your back sniggering.
I know many people who choose not to drink. Having gigged in licensed premises throughout their early teens and having seen how the masses behave when inebriated they decided it wasn’t something they wanted to start. But the amount of ridicule and abuse (honestly) they get from seemingly normal, respectable people is quite frankly disgusting! Especially when you see the contrast in the behaviour of the two groups at the end of the night.
The same people that moan about alcoholics are the first ones to assume all sorts of idiotic nonsense about those that choose to not drink alcohol.
So for anyone wanting to go on about alcoholics, can you have a look at your behaviour over the years and honestly review how you treat people who don’t EVER drink alcohol… I didn’t drink for about 8 years (purely a dietary requirement for an illness) and I got no end of stick and juvenile comments for it, not even from my peers (teens/early 20s) but mostly from people aged 40+
Makes you think.
This article may not be about the causes of alcoholism but the arguments about alcoholics’ behaviour are completely pointless unless someone actually tackles the source of the problem.
Still, move them on, that’ll solve the problem I’m sure… they won’t just go somewhere else and have different people start moaning about them
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Well there seem to be a number of different views on causes of this matter and really very few solutions being suggested. However my experience of alchohol and drug addiction (Not personal,but observed during a wide ranging professional career both here and in various major cities in the UK and worldwide)is that while it is easy to write off individuals with these problems as “Self inflicted”, there are any number of causes which are possible to categorise only by knowing the case history of each individual.One thing is certain that in cases of addiction, chemical dependancy on the addicted substance be it drugs/alchohol/chemical substances/glue is present in some people and not others.In London a use was found for a large and wholly useless empty building, Centrepoint, which gave a whole new approach to the hostel issue. I wonder where in Jersey we have a large fairly isolated wellfound but blighted building that might provide immediate accomodation and facilities for a properly run drug and alchohol rehabilitation centre? Well now this is a real no-brainer but for those having difficulty it was in the news most of last year,had just been refurbished,and due to adverse press has been empty following the spending of in excess of £12mn by the States who at one point were going to demolish it!Round up the homeless, alchoholics and drug addicts re locate them under the supervision of properly trained medics and staff at yes, Haut la Garenne and fund it properly as a state of the art hostel and rehabilitation centre.that’s positive action to deal wiyh a problem. Run properly this could even make money for the States.
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nice post Adrian. It seems to be just expected of people to go drinking after work and weekends; many of the people in my workplace think nothing of spending over £100 at weekends alone, always on a mission to spend their money in the pursuit of some kind of happiness. Crazy city life I guess, have to cater for the ignorant masses. I too long for the old ways but they’re gone forever in Jersey
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