Under-age binge drinking
Saturday 18th July 2009, 3:00PM BST.
THE shocking state of under-age binge drinking in Jersey has been revealed.
On the first day of the school summer holidays, the police and Ambulance Service have issued a joint warning about the number of teenagers regularly drinking potentially lethal amounts of alcohol.
Among the recent cases are:
• An 11-year-old boy found unconscious just yards from a cliff in St Brelade after downing a bottle of vodka.
• A 13-year-old girl found semi-unconscious on the sand dunes at St Ouen wearing only her underwear after drinking so much she would have been four times the legal driving limit.
• A 16-year-old girl found on the brink of suffering hypothermia sitting on steps in the Marina with water up to her waist after a night drinking.
The two emergency services have appealed to parents to ensure they know where their children are during the holidays – a season renowned for an increase in youth crime.
Read the full story in the Jersey Evening Post. Click here for subscription details. Individual editions are also available online.
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And yet when we called the police to report underage drinkers at la collette flats last night no one was interested.
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It goes without saying that the way to prevent under age drinking is to deny youngsters access to alcohol. In the past the police had a licensing unit, consisting of six police constables and a sergeant, who targeted drink related crime and disorder. If licensees are caught seelling booze to youngsters, robust action needs to be taken, including the suspension or revocation of the licquor licence.
The way to catch licnesees selling alcohol to under age people is to conduct ‘test purchasing’, using under aged persons – under the supervision of the police – to try and purchase drink. The licensee then needs to be named and shamed. The facts then need to be reported to the Crown Offices, so consideration can be given to removing the licensee’s licquor licence.
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Sarah, that’s really concerning.
There is a desperate need for a blitz where every kid found drunk is returned home to their parents and the parents are made to take responsibility and are preferably forced to attend parenting classes. There will be plenty of parents who honestly think it can’t be their kid, those who are just turning a blind eye and those who simply don’t care. Every single one needs dealt with!
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Hardly shocking news….. is anyone actually shocked by this?
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sarah, that is quite alarming, mind you are the police to add social worker to their list of jobs?
this topic in various guises has been aired here before .
what is there out there for the youth of today, loads of youth clubs have been shut , pulled down and built on,never to be replaced,
many parents find themselves both working to pay for overpriced rents , and overpriced homes, and a high cost of living.
it would be great for someone who worked with young people to find out what was required these days , but when it comes to funding there will no doubt be no cash left in the pot
to fund much.
young people are the future of the island , but what is their future, where are their jobs,
and afforable homes, and the not so bad life that us older folk have enjoyed?
i am sure that someone at some time stated in the j.e.p. that there was a social time bomb in jersey waiting to explode, the clock is ticking.
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When will Jersey “wake up” & see the verge of catastrophe that is imminent in the not so distant future.
The air of discontentment can be cut with a knife the moment one steps out of the door.
Is it me? or have people lost any sense of respect and propiertary?
The island is a disgrace,has one of the highest divorce rates in Britain,one of the highest alchoholic rates per head & one of the highest rates of bowel disease in the country.
The weather is terrible! & theres nothing for children adults or famillies to do!
A broken society that encourages none integration of family life & disharmony & social discord.
Jersey is anti-everything apart from money.
How long before the place becomes a clockwork orange society???.
Nobody cares to do anything about this “miserable” place & therefore must come to terms with the future consequences of a society that didnt care and were responsible for the future fallout that will manifest.
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Seen kids that look about 11-12 steaming drunk during the afternoons around Havre De Pas bathing pool, walking around carrying cans in front of lifeguards.
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To all those who will self righteously Tut Tut…Teenagers for those of you who have forgotten,have anxt and are adjusting ,are immensely idealistic,hence their aligning themselves with various causes…remember “Ban the Bomb” and “Save the whales” now just look at what they have for leadership, scummy lieing cheating politicians, false celebrity,footballers on more a day than most earn for a year,theiving gambling bankers,polluting capitalists, corrupt government officials,heartless developers, environmental rape and terrorism,paedophiles, lazy overpaid civil servants milking the system, bent policemen, tax dodging toffs,and greed and power hungry self serving soulless individuals who seem to outwit the system and get away with it…and you want these kids to play the game you have laid down, and not just numb out and have fun and live for today…we, if we would lead, we must do so by EXAMPLE…think on, monkey see, monkey do.
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There paying taxes at a young age now. Maybe these taxes could be used on an extra bobby on the beat rather than behind a computer to catch them.
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It is illegal to sell alcohol to those underage but is it actually illegal for them to drink it? Can someone clarify this?
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OK the drinking is bad enough – really bad.
But re the examples in the article…. where were their friends to make sure they were safe??!!!
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to monkey magic at 6:
“theres nothing for children adults or famillies to do!”
oh yes there is:
heritage sites – local children get in for free!
Walks – the island is full of them. woods , beaches, cliff paths.
There are youth clubs in most areas, uniformed clubs such as beavers, cubs and brownies etc
sports clubs that cover most interests.
Swimming – we live on an island with plenty of sea!!
surfing
Fishing – a cheap hobby!
parks
art exhibitions
A lot of the above can be done at a reasonable price.
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I seem to recall in the 1990s there was a survey in Jersey that revealed that in ratio the population in the Island, drunk 50% more alcohol that the population of England and Wales. What was done to sort that out? Nothing. Like many other problems, the politicians have an ‘In Tray’, an ‘Out Tray’ and a ‘Too Difficult Tray’…..guess where the drink problem ended up. Maybe they need to look at the idea of imposing higher taxes on alcohol and use the money for education and enforcement.
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I know this might be a sensitive issue but what is needed is a properly funded drink and drugs rehabilitation unit set up somewhere away from immediate access to town or to pubs/bars and clubs. Whilst I am somewhat naive as to what facilities are already provided, it would appear that what facilities there are are centred on St Helier, where just about every other establishment is a bar/restaurant/off-licence/pub etc.
There have already been several articles and letters concerning the acute adult alchoholics who hang around the park outside the General Hospital, which is I suggest a combination of having the refuge for homeless individuals and various treatment clinics centred around that area.
What is needed is a large somewhat remote, recently refurbished property, properly funded and staffed by people of excellence where these issues can be dealt with in a proffesional manner by people who know what they are doing, working as a well regulated team.
And with all due respect to the Haut la Garenne care leavers (with whom I emphathise and whose members I would support as candidates for the Board of Governors of the Institution I am suggesting here because of their life experience) the building I am thinking would fit this requirement perfectly is Haut la Garenne.
It has already had an expensive refurbishment at public expence, and would be ideal for a treatment centre of excellence.And is in danger of being demolished, when it could serve a far more important role by being rehabilitated.
I know if I had an opportunity to amend a wrong done to me in my life, and help the young and vulnerable and those too addicted to help themselves, I would jump at a chance to see even a building about which I had bad memories utilised to better effect.
In fact in my life there is such a building, which is now a centre of excellence at what it does.I am not saying where, but it is proof that such action can achieve amazing results!
And as for ongoing funding, such an establishment should be properly funded to become a centre of treatment excellence which would then provide training for staff for other centres elsewhere. In other words a college of healthcare/drink and drug addiction treatment, and social wellfare for the homeless.
A Phoenix rising from the ashes!And somewhere the Island can start dealing with some of these pressing Social issues.
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I agree with ZBD but no doubt that would be ‘entrapment’ in this stupid ‘freedom’ world.
It’s how they get it which is the worry. They hang around town asking adults to buy it for them.They get nasty if people refuse.
If underage caught with it in public by the police they have to stop drinking and give it up. Must give their true name and address or be arrested if not beleived.
But then what? Parents don’t care and neither do the courts.
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I am a parent and in answer to Leah Holmes and all the rest who appear to just put the blame on the parents we are not all bad and we do try to keep tabs on our children. We set boundaries buy we do have to give them some freedom to try and show them that they have responsibilities and have to act in a way which is socially acceptable. However, we are not with them every minute that they are out and I don’t believe that your parents were in your pockets either. We have to try and trust and when that trust goes pear shaped then we can try and do something about it. I am not condoning kids behaviour because some of going over the top and I do not agree with underage drinking and I would stop my daughter immediately but we have to know!! I do not allow my daughter to come home by herself after a certain time and I will pick her up if it is late. Parenting is not easy and we also have to test the water to how far we can let them loose – so don’t blame all the parents. Yes I think a curfew should happen and parents should be told that after that time it is up to them to make arrangements for their children and if not and they are found out and about and drunk then taken home. Heard about warnings first!! Let’s try it. But again what is there for children and young people to do on this Island and which is a reasonable price – there is nothing! I am lucky because we are involved in sport and music which occupies time but please tell me what the other children do! Please set out the list of things that they can do that teenagers would like to do!!
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I’m suprised Dr. Gellar not made any comments on this subject yet.
I can fully understand 16 or 17 year olds drinking as I believe most of us at that age is curious. I was a late bloomer myself at the age of 17-18 as my parents have warned me what the effects are like. Where are they getting it and where do they even get the money to pay for it!
So I blame the parents of these children who drink at 11 years old. That is just madness!!
but who cares anyway. It’s not the first time and it wont be the last time this subject has been issued.
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Well no wonder this happening all the time no just now but the police are not interested as they haven’t got the units available to go and see what is happening, Snow Hill is just as bad, sadly the police over here are only interested in what funds they can bring in to the island in repect of targets per officer, now there needs to be some produces and maker checkers put around what is happening in Jersey as it isn’t a pleasant place to visit anymore as you have all these brats running riot and the police turning a blind eye to it…only recently something happened at the waterfront and police were not interested in finding the teenagers as it was going to take time, what needs to happen someone get a knife or something more serious to go wrong before the police raise to assist and being law and order to the island….Jersey police need to step up to the mark and get Jersey back to being a safe place to live and enjoy……
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Hear Hear Sarah H they are so not interested but yet there is nothing that we can do…again Police are not interested…..been there and done and got the same reponse as yourself …..
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Ive heard from very different folks who were on holiday in jersey and will never return,they thought st helier wasnt safe walking from one bar to another fighting from youths, litter etc ,and the mess of a waterfront that doesnt suit st helier,UGLY was the word.
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I’ve read all your posts and it seems you all have some fairly common sense and more novel solutions.
Naturally those of us who aren’t parents cannot appreciate the difficulties of raising a teenager however I believe we can reduce this problem significantly with a two pronged attack.
First we need to bear in mind that prevention is better than cure. This means (perhaps unsurprisingly) that we should make efforts to make sure children cannot obtain alcohol.
This means, as ZBD points out, strong policing and penalties of licensees to make sure that they rigorously enforce a “NO ID – NO SALE” policy (I never had to do this when I was younger but always brought my ID just in case). I’d also tentatively suggest more rigorous policing of people who buy alcohol for youngsters, which I think is the most common method for them to obtain alcohol besides stealing it.
Many of the shops in Birmingham where I used to live had secure areas for storing alcohol, special seals on bottle caps to prevent theft and store security. The only disadvantage of this is that the costs are shared amongst all customers but I would appreciate hearing anyone’s thoughts on this.
It would be a shame if this were to be necessary in my opinion, as it could lead to us following the UK in having security in Hotels and even Cinemas.
Second, as my friend Frank Castle pointed out in the “Beating Crime” section, we need to make sure that we have viable activities for youngsters of a Friday and Saturday night – the children go to the Marina and Snow Hill for example simply because they have nowhere else to go.
Under 18 nights at Liquid have proved very popular but we could go further by returning Fort Regent into a leisure centre for children. Parents would approve of this move because they would know where their children are and the centre could be staffed by States employees.
Although activities should be made available to them, I believe much of the time that they simply wish to sit down and talk, which isn’t really possible if you have a large group of friends on a Friday evening in a café and the bars are off limits.
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I would just point out before the denigraters get too carried away, that Jersey’s problem here is nowhere near as serious as in certain UK towns and cities.In the last year we have seen fatal knife attacks in London increase significantly, and what about events in Newquay recently? So let’s not have correspondants making out that visitors are leaving en masse because they don’t feel safe!It is true however that one disillusioned family can have a disproportionate effect, and what does not help is that teenagers when they let their hair down these days can appear quite threatening. Several things contribute to this, one of which is appearance which with tattoos, short US military style haircuts,and certain areas of the anatomy on display can be threatening at an impact level beyond that imagined by the teen concerned. I have a friend who is a middle aged consultant physician but his hobby is to dress up in Hell’s Angels leathers and ride around on a Harley, and I have mentioned to him that he should always be aware his appearance might alarm some people, so it’s not only teens who can have this image problem.Sadly parental advice is not going to be heeded here because this is about experimenting with image with the intention of pushing the limits.
The second thing is swearing and shouting at the top of one’s voice, and there exist laws to stop this which could be much more vigourously enforced and prehaps if there was some sort of on the spot cash fine payable that might bring it home to some such behaviour is not to be tolerated. The same for littering, spitting,and dropping chewing gum on the pavements. All this requires a police presence and I do not mean overkill with what looks like a paramilitary force being deployed!Obviously if there is a full scale riot going on then that is different, but I have already made the point about appearance and if you dress your police like combat troops you cannot complain when the response they get is instant belligerance! It is a difficult problem but it can be overcome by sensible balanced reaction, and it cannot on an island this size be difficult for our uniformed police to know where youngsters congregate to cause trouble and plan accordingly.
I still maintain however that a lack of affordable places to go and facilities to redirect youthful energy into more constructive activity is largely responsible here.
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As a resident of Havre Des Pas with a ‘sea view’ I regularly witness large groups of drunk children causing mayhem. I recently witnessed two police officers attempting to remove alcohol from a large group of mostly girls who were no older than 14 on a Tuesday (school) night. A girl in possession of a bottle screamed that it was only lemonade. The police managed (just) to separate her from the group remove the alcohol and detain her. As the police drove off one of the young girls chased after the police car screaming abuse and attempted to kick the car. As soon as the police had gone the children walked off laughing and swearing.
The scene was like something from a real crime TV show.
About 5 minutes later I witnessed a boy again in his young teens riding a BMX on the wrong side of the road. He was so drunk that he fell off has bike and was nearly run over by a passing taxi.
These events died down by 10pm. I was then woken up at 1:30am by a group of eastern Europeans screaming like animals and fighting in the middle of the road. The scene was so menacing that I dare not tell them to move on. One of them was absolutely off his head it was like witnessing an ugly mafia scene from a movie.
Why anyone would want to spend half a million on a 2 bedroom flat, opposite the new incinerator, with this level of public disorder on their doorstep is beyond me.
Put your name on the list for the Fort D’Auvergne development now!
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eric (20).
very sad to hear this , sadly its true.
you do not see this in france.
higher priced booze will not stop it .
in france if a bar is rowdy they are closed as a warning.
also shops who sell drink to under age should have alcohol sales suspended.
would someone from our goverment care to tell us through the media , what is to be done.
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Let them drink, they can suffer the consequences later in life. You will never stop this kind of thing its a world wide problem and will never be addressed anyway!
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Regarding Yogies comments.
How many times can you go to a heritage site???
Who wants to go for a walk in a force 7 gale???
What happened to a dry ski slope that was spoken of,or a whale & dolphin sanctury???
I cant see many children of five & upwards being interested in Lilly langtry & half a dozen cows.
Its “2009″ not 1949! like most of the halfwits seem to think over here.
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25. Sean – This is a worldwide prolbem – actually it isn’t. A couple of years ago I went to Prague and at 1am walked through the main square with my husband. passing several young people from 16 upwards, walking around quietly chatting and laughing. We then approached a hotdog stall which also sold lager and joined a group of youngsters there to have a drink – no menace, no fear, completely relaxed.
In Copenhagen you walk the streets at any time of the night / early morning, you never see anyone drunk (even in the bars) never see youngsters shouting or swearing in the streeets and definitely never behaving in an unruly manner. I don’t believe I ever saw a policeman in either city either, apart from directing the traffic.
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Yet again its te same story, And worst is that we keep hearing the police say we can’t do anything!Well the first rule of the police is to protect the public! Firstly under the age of 18 you are classified as a youth or child, at this age you are under the supervision of your parents or person in your legal guardianship. For the police to say they can’t do anything is breaking the number one rule! safety! The uk and jersey are the only places in europe with what are classified as drinking problems! why is this? well alcahol produces a very large ammount of tax, Catch a child shop lifting and they are taken to youth court. Catch a child drunk and there either told to move on, or in some cases dropped home. Parents in most cases don’t care and they are the number one cause of why the child has the attitude to alcohol, you will find most of the parents couldn’t care less where there kids are and are the main suppliers of the alcohol. Name and shame the parents!
its such a shame to see this is still happening, and it does need sorting out the quicker the better.
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At 27. Nellie Macon. It’s sounds like a Uk – Jersey Culture. I still blame the parents. It depends really what way you are raised that determines at way you behave later in life.
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You write about binge drinking like it’s a new thing. It’s been going on for years and will do for many more if those parents who don’t care about their kids aren’t brought to justice themselves. You can’t blame the kids for going out and getting bladdered, it wasn’t their fault they were born. The parents are at fault and if they dont’ care about their kids then they should be allowed to have them. Those kids deserve better.
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I am sorry to say that there is a propensity amongst Brits to cause trouble wherever the go in the world. It wasn’t always like this and I feel that this problem has only developed since we have become more liberal.
Not only do we have a high incidence of alcoholism and drink related problems, but we also have a higher rate of teenaged pregnancies than most countries in Europe.
Morality seems to be on the slippery slope and until H.M. Government, or as in Jersey’s case, the States, get to grips with the problem, things will only get worse.
How often do you see on Street Crime U.K. on the television, some drunken lout fighting with the police. Then when they give an update as to what happened to the offender, they tell you he was let off with words of advice. It is a complete nonsense.
It needs to be made clear to people, that if they over step the mark and they break the law they will be dealt with in a robust fashion. They shouldn’t be given a pat on the head and handed a lolipop, as so often seems to happen nowadays.
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I was at the forum wine bar on saturday night with my sisters. whilst smoking outside there were a group of lads drinking in the bus shelter opposite singing and shouting loudly and banging on the ‘glass’ of the bus shelter. A police car came past, stop, revered and a finger came out beckoning the lad. They spoke to him and then drove off.
Guess what
as soon as they were out of sight, the lads started up again singing and shouting and banging on the bus shelter. very intimidating to anyone walking past.
They were between 15 and 16 years old.
There needs to be more input in estates and known drinking areas of kids. We need police or honorarys down at harve de pas or the la collette estate, known places with kids drinking, yet we have told housing about underage drinking on the estates and all they say is to keep on at the police. the police cant be anywhere. It is the parents responsiblity. i am a parent as well and its my responsibility to make sure that my daughter isnt out binge drinkin when shes older and causing problems.
when your a parent you cant just blame everyone else for your child doing it, you have to do something yourself
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Doli Incapax, you may be a repsonsible parent in which case you should be equally upset that your children will be going to school with kids whose parents are NOT responsible, and their education may be affected by this. And if an 11-year old is unconscious drunk, the first people to blame ARE the parents.
I earned my parents trust as a kid, I proved that I could be trusted. No-one earns trust anymore, they just get given it for some reason. I found things to do, I didn’t expect society to hand it to me on a plate. I was into music, art, sport… all things that are available to kids today (even in Jersey) but they get stuck in front of a TV and computer at such a young age they never find out what else might interest them. Kids won’t always find out for themselves, they need parents to help show them.
Mind you, even among adults today you’ll find those that want society to give them things to do because they’ve grown up unable to go out and find things for themselves.
If the kids wants better facilities what on earth is stopping them getting out there and fundraising for it? Why do they think adults should just fix it all for them? I’ve said it before, I’m sure there are plenty of adults who would gladly lend a hand, and their time if some kids showed the initiative instead of just whining and expecting everything to be given to them.
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Yogie, you can’t expect an 11-year old to take care of another 11-year old. That is too much resopnsibility and if something serious were to happen that kid would have to live with the guilt. The only question for this one is where were the parents?
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Yogie get a grip ! what would you rather do ( actually bad example) “hey lads lets go to La Houge Bie on Friday night heard they got some wicked exhibitions” ! people like you make the island look pathetic !!!
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I have lived on the front at Havre de Pas for almost five years now. All through each summer crowds of teenagers congregate at the lido or in the booths by the Fort d’Auvergne. I am not so old that I would point the finger if they are 16/17 and having a few drinks but otherwise causing no trouble. Unfortunately screaming, shouting and paralytic is more common. Luckily my bedroom is not road facing so I can usually sleep uninterrupted but I am sure that many of my neighbours are not in such a fortunate position.
I posted on the story about the French students getting attacked that I rarely see a police presence despite these long-standing problems. I must now to be fair remark that I have definitely noticed an increase in policing in the area over the last fortnight and I mentioend that to my girlfriend just this weekend. A pleasant surprise and appreciated – lets hope it will work.
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Doesn’t surprise me. Jersey has always been like that. Mind you, as someone has already pointed out, there are some places in the UK that would have the Jersey kids running a mile.
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Whilst it is clear that the problem of under-age drinking can only really be effectively tackled in two ways, that is by stopping youths getting alcohol and demanding greater responsibility from the parents, are we not also missing another significant point?
Do the adults of this Island not also have a role to play in setting an example to kids? What kind of role models are those that stagger through the streets of St Helier on a Friday night, intoxicated?
The simple truth is that kids will want to binge-drink as long as they see adults doing it.
Let’s sort out the Island’s adult binge-drinking culture first, and maybe then the rest will follow. Whether this means raising taxes on alcohol or introducing tougher laws concerning drunken behaviour, ultimately something has to be done to improve the example set by adults concerning how to enjoy alcohol responsibly.
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Not often i agree with Leah, but she has a very valid point…..
Its the way children are brought up and what they are taught about respect and values….
As a kid growing up in Jsy a few years ago ( but not that many…) there was the same problem with underage drinking…..i would go out with mates and they would enjoy a good bit if underage drinking…I was no angel and would also join in to a degree….but at the back of my mind was always the thought of how my parents would react if i got in to any trouble or more to the point how dissapointed in me they would be….i was more scared of dissapointing my parents….
Its important to give kids the freedom to experiment and learn about growing up…but the values they learn from their parents is how they behave…
Funnily enough we are often complimented on how well our own kids now behave…..I hope we have installed the same values that we learnt from our parents…
So while the Police and Hons have a role to play…im sorry but for me it starts at home…passing the responsibility off for me is simply passing the buck…..
Unfortunately in todays society I am saddened by the lack of values and respect that seem to be prevalent in young people.
And no Im not that old…!!!
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Please stop blaming the police for evrything ,this issue starts at home not in the police brigade,is anyone actually aware of what a policeman has to do paperwork wise when he caughts a child drinking on our streets ?catch him ,be called names and what nome2)take him to the policestation and go paperwork 3)parents are called from the pub where they are drinking come to the policestation they get (maibe) a slap on the wrist 4 ) the kids know it ,the police know it ,tomorrow is another day ,why not do it again right ?Think being the police officer who just spent about 45 minutes doing a report ..for what a slap on the wrist ??Please DO WAKE UP folks
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I got asked by a girl who looked about 12 on friday evening at snowhill if i would go into the spar shop and get her a bottle of vodka and a packet of fags, when i said no she started shouting abuse at me.Had she been a lad i would have taught her a lesson by giving her a thick ear
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Reading quite a bit of comment concerning parental responsibility. I think that there is some pretty fanciful thinking going on here as to exactly what there is to go home to for some of these youngsters!
There is absolutely no doubt that the local uniformed police are mishandling this situation. For example: there is an eye witness account here of a youngster screaming abuse, chasing and kicking out at a police car, and yet the police just apparently drove off!Totally the wrong approach. If the young person concerned was so keen to join her friend then the police car should have stopped and she should have been given the opportunity! and no cosy, cushy nonsense, the full works with a full body search (By appropriate gender officers) followed by a night in the cells and an appearance before the Magistrate the following morning and definately no swearing and carrying on (Any swearing should result in being hosed down fully clothed in the cell with a cold fire hose!Military Police style sobering up technique!very effective. Or alternatively some time in a padded cell).
The same applies to the youths beating up on the bus shelter, which is an act of vandalism.I would suggest that the Magistrate in that case impose some suitable community activity such as clearing up vandalised areas under supervision,and a fine in direct proportion to the cost of repairing the damage caused.
As we are not part of the EEC, I do not see why our Courts cannot put their own interpretation as to how Human Rights legislation applies here in relation to minors (And adults too). I suspect this is yet another area where we have adopted hook,line and sinker European legislation that has come via the UK, without debate by our own elected representatives? any lawyers out there to cast some light on this issue?
Unfortunately a lot of this behaviour is also down to media input these days, and that is predominantly glorifying violence as a means of getting your own way.We should not be surprised when young persons who have no concept of the true effect of real violence resort to it with fatal results.
And I sympathise with Havre des Pas residents there are definately concentration points around that area where youngsters collect, but the key point you mention is the shelters that are there, which provide exactly that (From the weather)conclusive evidence that these youngsters need somewhere to go,that does not cost money, with proper facilities where they can interact constructively and the supervision is constructive not oppressive.
Having said all that, we should be very proud of the majority of our young people who are very fine citizens indeed, and in the majority can show some of us adults a thing or two.
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Surely if a 12 year old is out at night asking strangers to buy her drink Social Services should be involved as the child is being neglected. The parents should be in prison not the pub
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Mark Morrison (40)….unfortunately the police have to submit lots and lots of paperwork that has nothing to do with effective criminal justice. A lot of it is for the ‘bean counters’ with statistics etc. Forget the paperwork, the point is unruly youngsters and adults need to be brought to book and if they aren’t they will continue to behave in that fashion. I agree you can not blame the police for everything. Parents, guardians, the drinks trade (licensees etc.), the judiciary and politicians all have a part to play and they all need to sing from the same hymn book. At present that isn’t happening – everybody is blaming someone else.
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Overpopulated (43). How right you are – have a look at Article 9 of the Childrens (Jersey) Law 1969. If a person who is over the age of 16, has care custody or control of a child under the age of 16 and that person wilfully assaults, ill treats, ABANDONS or NEGLECTS that child, he / she is guilty of an offence.
I guess if a parent or guardian lets the child get away with drinking or taking drugs, or allow them to misbehave, it might be that they have abandoned or neglected that child.
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Squirrel (10) -
It is illegal to sell alcohol to anyone underage, illegal to buy it underage and illegal to buy it on the request of someone underage. If the parent buys it and leaves it hanging around or even gives the child alcohol, however, it is perfectly legal for the child to drink it.
Nathan Jordan (21) -
You referred to the under-18s nights in local clubs (I understand that both Liquid and Platinum run these). I am not sure whether these are as good an idea as they are advertised as. They do not sell alcohol on these nights but from my experience many of the teenagers have been drinking considerably beforehand, and as long as they can stand up when they reach the bouncers and don’t actually have any alcohol still with them they are allowed in. Allowing children to be in a setting which is irrevocably associated with adults getting drunk is going to automatically make them think that it is acceptable for them to do the same.
Personally I would suggest that more live music events are put on, especially by local teenagers in their bands, in places which are adequatedly supervised by adults. When I was a teenager we simply used to go to each others houses and watch films etc. most of the time rather than go out at night, and if we did we were always picked up by adults and so even if we had considered it we would not have been able to get drunk secretly. As with Leah, I earned the trust of my parents rather than being handed it on a plate.
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Raising the price of alcohol will do nothing more than encourage the usual whiners on these HYS to moan how expensive alcohol is and how it was never that expensive in the old days and it’s killing tourism blah blah blah. Increasing the price is the road to banning the substance all together. This is also not the solution as proved by lessons learned from US prohibition in the 30′s. In fact many sternly in favour and passing prohibition at the outset subsequently went on record to say they made a gross error and it leads to more harm than good.
The underlying issue here is pure and simple – it’s down to culture. The French for example are better at handling their drink (they do have their own alcohol problems BTW) because of the way they are brought up around drink and the type of establishments and drinks available to them. Here are the main contrasts in culture:-
The French introduce drinking to their children at a young age associating it with meal times and socialising and drinking small amounts throughout the day. There are no stringent rules about underage drinking and it is not seen as illegal or taboo by other adults. In Britain drinks are effectively locked away until you are 18 making the process of obtaining a drink an exciting challenge. They are not just locked away by law, but also by taboo. Not only this but drinking in the day is also seen as slightly taboo.
The French alcohol industry prides itself on producing mainly quality wines and beers etc which are designed to be savoured and enjoyed. Compare that to the UK industry where the majority of alcoholic beverages are designed to get you wasted as quick as possible whilst tasting like a sugary pop drink. There is no money anymore in UK industry producing quality ales… it’s all about the money these days – something the French aren’t that bothered in.
Finally, unless in Paris or another major French city, the French establishments are laid back and plain. Their hours are relatively relaxed as is their service – slow but proper service and limited non commercial drinks (no alcopops in sight!). In contrast UK establishments are brash – companies invest millions in fancy bars to get millions back through serving as many people as possible as quick as possible in a 4 hour window. All self service and a massive range of drinks. The industry is designed to get people to buy as much as possible as quickly as possible all mixed in with music and bad disco lighting.
So as you see our problems are not to do with age, policing, parenting or funding – they are to do with culture and the drinking industry. We’ve gone a long way down the road of alcohol consumerism. If people want change extra funding here or there will only fire fight the issue. You need decades of culture change reversing it back to the French way.
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If enough residents call the police to inform them of underage drinking in hot spots,etc…Maybe something will eventually be done, or shall we wait for a child to die from it?!
The parents must be held responsible, for their child’s actions, fine them heavily.
In saying that, they are more than likely to be found in the Pub themselves, drunk!!! or knocking each other around!
School introduce AA speakers in, to talk to the children, hear how drink has messed up their lives..etc..
“pass me that bottle of vino du collapso mother, remind me i still have homework to do! ” HIC!
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I live very close to a town pub with a small “Beer garden”
I dread the summer because from 1700-2100 on a weekday and all day on a Sunday there are kids from 5-15 hanging around in the road while their parents are drinking in the pub
I complained to the pub landlord about this and voiced my opinion about responsibility and was told I was not welcome any more in said establishment.
I wonder what the brewery advice is to landlords regarding drunken parents with kids and I can assure you these parents are drunk not just having a couple of drinks.
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Joker, I do think parents need to take very lightly the strictness of the laws on alcohol and choose to use their better judgement introducing alcohol to their children in the way you suggest. This is what my parents, and most of my friends’ parents did. There are areas of life where parents need to just do what they believe to be better for their children because their children’s wellbeing needs to come first.
My parents let me taste whatever they were drinking if I wanted to. I tasted wine and whisky (just a sip) at the age of 8 and not surprisingly decided I didn’t like them
My parents also took the time to explain the differences of how alcohol affects an adult’s brain compared to that of a childs’ brain so I knew there was good reason why adults could drink and children couldn’t and that it wasn’t just the Government trying to spoil kids’ fun!
I first had a full drink of alcohol at 14 but I had enough respect for my parents to be totally scared of getting drunk and disappointing them so it was just one drink as and when. I enjoyed the occasional drink until I was 16/17 at which point I would enjoy the odd night out with friends having a couple of drinks but never getting even remotely drunk or out of control. And my parents didn’t mind me having an occasional drink because I’d proven that I could do this without going too far. They preferred that to the really strict approach with its high failure rate.
The only benefit that serious drinking has is that some of my friends have never and will never touch alcohol because they’ve seen their parents drunk and were mortified.
I intentionally don’t drink alcopops in front of my nieces, so if they want to taste whatever I’m drinking (wine or whisky usually) I’ll let them have a sip. They never like it!
Follow the law strictly and we end up debating whether a 22-year old with total liver failure should be allowed a liver transplant (see yesterday’s national news).
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why not show these kids pictures of that 22 yr old who just died of liver failure in a London hospital. He started binge drinking at 13 and his jaundiced and bloated face before he died would shock some of these kids into thinking about what they are doing. Apparently the liver is much more susceptible to damage when
younger from alcohol.
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Did you all see Nick Owen on BBC 1 on the 21st July 09, with the Truth About Crime? Look how many incidents of violence were not reported to the police. I think they came up with the worrying statistic, that just 1 in 30 cases resulted in a conviction. It was obvious that alcohol was a major contributory factor in many assaults and it is clear that more needs to be done to ensure that alcohol abuse, by adults as well as minors, needs to be dealt with by the police. This can only be done with the efficient leadership from the States and the support of the Centeniers and Courts.
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I agree completely with Leah Holmes, as a kid i was offered the choice to try alcholhol (Most of which i found quite vile) but it gave me a healthy caution of alchohol in the future. Now that i am now 18 i just get drunk legally and enjoy it.
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ZBD, got it on iPlayer after you mentioned it (thanks). It was pretty interesting.
Is there a way that we can make kids realise that we are not trying to spoil their fun but in fact are trying to preserve their future? I know kids think they’re invincible and it is hard to make them think of the future but we need to do something because at this rate many of them will (needlessly) have no future and we are to blame for that.
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Oh come on, we all used to binge drink and throw stones at windows, get into the odd scrap, and steal the odd packet of sweets when we were kids. I think this is blown completely out of proportion by a bunch of decrepit old NIMBYS. Give the kids a break and let them live there lives to the full.
The next shock storyline, ‘Kid found eating sweets’
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Did anyone know that its illegal to be drunk on licenced propertys! Even though they are selling the alcohol.
I think if you look at the laws over here they need to be re looked at and amended, more so for the age we live in now and not 50 or 60 years ago! Things change as do attitudes towards things such as alcahol, drugs and driving. If the right laws are not in place you could punish properly. Its not the police its the laws they have to follow.
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Mr Schweetcakes
You raise an interesting point with which i agree…to a degree….
I refer to my earlier post…remember the early 80′s (when i was a lad and old shep was a pup…) for a 5 or 6 year period the Muratties saw some pretty fierce violence….remember King Street getting trashed and Woolies getting its windows smashed in….or the inter school fights..i remember certain roads where out of bounds and policed to ensure certain schools did not go down them ( and to allow the De La Salle boys safe routes home…!) giving away my loyalties….
Fast forward to today…the same incidents would be all over the news and subject to a lot more fierce criticism than events of today….
The media has a lot to do with how we perceive things…and results in a lot of incidents getting blown out of proportion…..or under the microscope….
However, what I do note today is the difference in attitude, respect and values that are displayed by many of our your inhabitants….
Again when i was young (er) we had more of a respect for our elders and also more conscious of how our parents would react if we got in to “trouble”…and also aware of stepping over the line…
I agree we should let our children “grow up” and learn for themselves…..and we can learn from our European cousins here.
But again i re-iterate…its the values they learn from their parents that are displayed in the way they behave….
Your children are a reflection of you, how they behave is a reflection of you….if only some parents would display this…….
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Mr.Schweetcakes (55) I think most people will disagree with you. We don’t mind people enjoying themselves, but not at the expense of everyone else. You don’t need to get ‘blitzed’ out of your skull and be agressive to other people to enjoy yourself.
James (56) Yes, Strange as it may seem it is an offence to be drunk, disorderly or quarrelsome on licensed premises. A licensee or his servant can ask you to leave if you behave in such a manner. If a licensee or his staff serve people who are drunk the bar staff and the manager commit an offence and the licquor licence could be revoked or suspended. The problem nowadays, is that the police and courts appear to take a soft stance with such offences.
To reiterate, the police need to look at ‘test purchasing’, were under 18 year olds, are supervised by the police to see if they can purchase alcohol from pubs and off licenses. This scheme is used by the police in conjunction with the Trading Standards Department in England and Wales and the newspapers often have accounts of how many licensees are caught out. Again convictions can result in the revocation or suspension of licquor licenses.
Restrict the amount of alcohol youngsters can get hold of and you will reduce the disorder on the streets.
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#55, I didn’t, I was perfectly capable of enjoying myself without ruining things for other people!
#56 James, that one is enforced at my local back home. In fact the pub runs incredibly well because the licensee is strict but fair. But the fact that all the customers are local and know each other helps. Still many Jersey bars will have regulars and some of the methods my local back home use to prevent trouble brewing could probably be implemented here.
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I waited patiently until my 18th birthday to go into a night club, and went in with a few friends to discover that, much to my irritation, there were girls 2 years younger than me who had got in, presumably using fake IDs because they looked vaguely old enough. I know that when I was at school certain of the younger girls used to ask older ones who looked similar to them if they could borrow their passports or driving licences and they often succeeded. I think bouncers should look more carefully at the identification offered, particularly if the person looks young. I would prefer to be turned away for not looking enough like my own photo and appearing too young than have the bars and clubs overrun with underage drinkers who haven’t learnt to control the amounts that they drink.
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Well Im glad there are so many little miss and mr perfects in Jersey, what boring childhoods you must have had, growing up like robots never crossing the line and experiencing danger and risk.
I can imagine you all at the age of 15 going out to the ‘roller disco’ and drinking Coke with your friends, being picked up by your mummy at 6.30, whereupon you went home had a bath and went to bed by 7.30 tucked in by your mummy- ready ‘bright and early’ to go and study at school the next day. Well that was back in the 70s / 80s. This is 2009.
No one seems to ask why do the kids do these idotic, and what seems to adults to be completely mad and deranged, things like the odd swig of Vodka or the odd fight. Its because they are normal children,living in 2009. You cannot compare them to your perfect childhoods – the reality is you were no saint yourselves – I bet you got drunk when you should not have , I bet you broke the odd law, what a bunch of Hypocrits!
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58 -
Making alcohol harder to buy is a short term solution, but kids will always find ways to get it…
What we need is to change culturally our attitude to acholol, instead of making it taboo and something you cannot do until your 18 (encouraging youngsters to find out what all the fuss is about before hand…)
Sharing with our kids that alcohol in the correct form can be used sociably and enjoyed.
I have no problems if one of my kids wants a glass of wine(watered down) with dinner or indeed wishes to taste(as others have pointed out in this thread)an alcoholic drink.
As i said previoulsy we have a lot to learn from our European cousins.
Banning alcohol or making it harder to get, will in my opinion not eradicate the problem, but will simply magnify as kids do not know how too handle so will use to excess….
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Jay(62)Having lived in Germany for a number of years I recognise that the European’s culture is different to ours. They also have legislation prohibiting drinking by people under a specified age, but they don’t suffer the drunkenness we experience in the British Isles nor the violence and anti social behaviour.
The police in many European countries are much more robust. I have seen the ‘Shutzpolizei’ in action in Berlin; they hit first and ask questions later – not that I would advocate dealing with youngsters like that – the point is they are more robust in the way they deal with anti social behaviour.
Education certainly has a part to play, but so does more effective policing and action by the courts.
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Mr Schweetcakes:
As it happens, I did not grow up in the 70s/80s, I wasn’t born until 1990! I know what it’s like to be a teenager in 2009 because I am one and I am still capable of drinking responsibly. Yes, I did drink before I was 18 but not to excess and I certainly never got into drunken fights in town, shouted abuse at strangers in the street or blacked out in a carpark as it seems is the norm for some teenagers.
However, just because I didn’t get drunk every night doesn’t mean I had a boring childhood – would you call an adult boring because they didn’t spend their life off their face? That said, you probably would if you can make such sweeping judgments about teenagers. If you couldn’t think of something more interesting and constructive to do with your time as a kid than getting drunk, smashing windows, shouting abuse, throwing up and forgetting what you did every night, I pity you.
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61 Schweetcakes
To a certain degree you may be right in what you are saying.
However, in my day we didn’t have cowards walking around with weapons and beating up girls. Why does the youth of today feel they can’t do anything on their own…..always in large groups, wearing hoodies to hide their faces?
Are they that scared and cowardly.
I for one would love a teen to start something with me unprovoked and I guarantee they won’t do it again to anyone else!
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Mr Schweetcakes (61) I grew up in Jersey in the 50s and 60s and had loads of fun building tree houses, climbing trees, fishing, swimming, boating….yes and I tried beer too when I was under age. There can’t be too many people on who make entries on this site, who haven’t committed a crime – yes me included. I have never used violence against another except in self defence and would rather avoid it.
My mother and father weren’t well off and I certainly didn’t have a privilaged upbringing, but they did impose standards discipline. That is something that is lacking nowadays together with respect, compassion and love….yes love.
I have served in H.M.Forces throughout the world and am fortunate enough to have had many wonderful experiences, but nothing compares with feeling love for fellow human beings, having respect for others and the love and respect of others.
That experience is not achieved through getting ‘smashed out of your skull’ on alcohol and committing unprovoked assaults.
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I started drinking at 15 in clubs and pubs and the first thing I noted about alcohol was… I had a limit!!! Over the years, I have found that I get myself to a merry line and then maintain it without crossing it, to drunk. I actually dislike being drunk, and the loss of control that it brings to me.
With society the way it is nowadays, when drunkeness = easiness (if you are female), it is just too dangerous!
I am currently a resident of Australia, but have not given up my love for my island, and I have to admit to really appreciating the way that Queensland runs it’s pubs and clubs. Basically, everyone gets ID’d on the door. If you have no ID, you don’t get in… and it matters not if you are 50 years old… no ID, no entry!! I am 30 now and if I have no ID, I don’t get in.
I am also a parent. I have two children. At the moment, they are far too young for things like clubbing, but, I hope that I would have the same relationship with them, as my mother had with me.
Yes, I clubbed at 15, but… my mother knew where I was, who I was with and, what time I would be home. We had a trust relationship that has helped me become the person (well adjusted and all kinds of great!!!) that I am today. Because of this, I was never roudy or stupid or a drunken child doing crazy things.
I think maybe if parents nowadays were as open as my mother was, they would find that their children would turn to them if they needed or wanted something rather than just do it themselves regardless.
Don’t get me wrong. My mum set boundaries, and if I broke them, I got grounded. And my mother ensured my punishment (which probably drove her nuts, but she did it anyway as it was in my best interests). I had a time limit as a start, a drink limit and all kinds of other limits that helped my mother set me free, whilst contain me at the same time.
My mum was of the opinion that she would rather know about (and limit) what I was doing, than me do it behind her back. Due to this, we had a very open and friendly relationship, with limits and dicipline when required.
I just hope that children now can be as responsible as I was about what they are doing as I was, and that parents can restrain and understand their children like my mum did.
My only hope for myself, is that I turn out to be just like my mum. Now, how many children can say that???
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Mr Schweetcakes…
I have to admit to being an 80′s child, and after the rollerdisco, I went to Sands/Splash. Again I was responsible and generally all kinds of great. Read previous post…
I can’t say I am a hypocrite, as I both got merry AND was responsible, but I have to ask… where were you?? Are you spouting on about the roller discos because you were there… drinking coke and being picked up by YOUR mommy at 6.30pm??? Therefore, you are making fun of everyone else, for doing the same thing you were???
Or, were you a wild child, drinking, smoking, doing drugs, beating up on old people and being one of the children we are now complaining about??
We (as parents, or, young responsible adults) are not trying to stop the youth of today having fun, all we are trying to do is moderate them somewhat and stop them from damaging themselves. All I can say is that I am glad my mother stopped me from becoming god only knows what due to her encouragement and belief in my good nature!
Basically, stop trying to tell the youth of today that is is fine to beat upon the olds, because they want to… that it is fine to get hammered, because they want to… that they can shag anyone they want… because they want to…
My mother instilled some values into me, and I stand by them today with my own children.
You cannot give children a free ride. They have to accept responsibility for their actions.
All I ask is that today’s youth, get over themselves and look at the bigger picture!!! We did it in the 80′s and 90′s… what is so different now??? Your problems are not so different!!!!
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