Constable ‘shocked’ by Rue de Funchal comments
Wednesday 5th August 2009, 2:58PM BST.
Constable Simon Crowcroft
THE Constable of St Helier, Simon Crowcroft, says that he was ‘moved almost to tears of shame’ by racist comments made by some of those who objected to the renaming of Rue de Funchal.
In his internet blog http://sthelier.blogspot.com Mr Crowcroft wrote that he was shocked by the racist objections raised by Islanders young and old.
He wrote: ‘What I find shocking about racism in Jersey in 2009 is the way it issues forth from the mouths of people whom I know well, or believed that I did, people with whom I associate, work, do business and socialise.
‘To hear racist attitudes spouting from 16-year-olds who have recently been granted the right to vote makes me wonder what our expensive education system is doing to inculcate tolerance, fairness and intelligence in our young people.’
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Yep I can see why old crows nest was shocked,I wasn’t aware of any racist views prior to the proposed renaming of James St.
It’s unheard of in the island, I mean it’s not like we have a 2 tier system favouring locals and penalising non nationals is it. Such a system would encourage racism as it would be inherant in the constitution.
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Is it actually “racist” to expect people to attempt to integrate and at least learn the language of the country they move to? Rather than just wilfully segregate themselves and not want to be a part of this society? Is it really “racist” to want work permits introduced like most other civilised countries?
If it is, then I guess you can class me as racist, although I never would have considered myself to be so. It could be argued that it is also racist to come to an English-speaking place and refuse to learn our language – ie, do they consider themselves above us?
However, I think the word “racism” is being thrown around here rather glibly, perhaps to try to shame anyone who dared to disagree with the road rename proposal, or anyone who considers that Jersey is already overpopulated and cannot keep letting everybody in.
No doubt this thread will soon be filled by people harping on about the “inbred, racist thick Jersey people” – kettle, pot, black, calling!
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I am the daughter of a portuguese family who have been here for approx 40 years. My family (native Portuguese)and I find the re-naming ridiculous!! The Portuguese community had NO say in the matter and if anyone bothered to talk to us – they would see that the majority of us are/were either unaware of the re-naming or find it stupid!!! If anything, it has promoted racism!!!
I agree with Tobias. Jersey, along with the united kingdom, is going PC crazy!!!
When my family first moved here, they had to abide by the rules and integrate etc and they did not expect anything less!!
Unfortunately, many foreigners have now taken on the attitude that this island should bend to their will but it is the island we have to blame, this also applies to other cultures in the UK also.
Is it not about being racist – it’s about keeping your own culture going!
Where has the English/jersey culture gone!? Because if you ask me, it’s pretty difficult to distinguish where / what it is now a days!
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I would like Mr Crowcroft to clarify what he thinks racism is? Having a personal view is part of the structure called democracy! unfortunatly the ones that spout political correctness dont actually know what is and isnt allowed! and as for me i understand why people are upset, you dont just change something for the minority it has to be done for the majority as goes with democracy. What is all this twinning and how do we benefit from it, answer is we dont its to make jersey look European, Were not and i don’t think ever will be. Europe has some of the most racist nations going. Im born in jersey with parents from the uk, Im glad of the life i have on this island, I pay a lot of tax and buy a lot of local produce. The one thing that gets my back up are the scroungers who come over here from all over and there are no questions asked. Families come over and get everything handed to them on a plate, medical, child benefit and housing let alone food allowences and fuel allowences. I know this as i do know some of these people who laugh and joke how there taking the island for a ride, im sorry to say this but most of them are madieran/portugese or from the uk. not all but a few. If something was done about this people would have more respect for politicians and the people coming over to work. I dont want to keep forking out for lazy people with a high tax and whenever you question this your classified as racist. Its not.
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I think it’s almost funny that the thing he finds most shocking about racism, is his own ignorance of it.
And with regards to the his wonderings on the expensive education system, and it’s role in efforts to ‘inculcate’ (pompous much?) tolerance, fairness and intelligence in our young people; maybe if he lead by example??
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You want to have to have a permit to come and work here in the UK then Tobias?
I’m sure we can change the rules.
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Tobias…..I completely agree with everyting you have said! I have friends who are portuguese, polish, spanish etc and i am english. I would not consider myself racist but like you say in your comment – if wanting to stop Jersey being overcrowded and asking for work permits is racist – then i am one to!! I still dont really see the point in changing the name?? Community relations are to do with the community you are in – not changing a street name, if things are to change then everyone needs to integrate willingly and it hasn’t happened for the last 30 years so why will it happen now!!
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What utter cobblers! When is Simon Crowcroft going to actually do something good in the States for a change? He knows the name change was a stupid idea so this is his way of changing the subject. Rate payers in St Helier must be dismayed by his approach to the real needs of the Parish and this was a waste of money and energy.
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How many percent of people in our prison are non local residents? I wouldn’t be surprised if this figure led to many people being racist.
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Sadly, I am not surprised about this article as I come across this quite a lot. I have been assaulted by young and older people few times because of my mediterranean looks, even though I am not Portuguese. I agree with Constable Crowcroft, that schools in Jersey should do lot more to eliminate racism among the islanders. However it also should be said that foreign people living in Jersey should make an effort to learn the language and the local culture.
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The Constable,A likeable bloke,but on this occasion,”I think he doth protest too much” not that two wrongs make a right,but Tobias above does make pertinent observations about Joining in.and in fairness a concerted effort to do so might yield rewards.
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Well said Tobias.
I guess Mr Scowcroft is just trying to score brownie points with the non-native population.
It is all well and good introducing diverse nationalities and cultures but it is NOT racist to want to keep your own heritage and traditions from disappearing. What happened to the Jersey French language?
Aside from social integration issues there are also legal and health & safety issues when people choose not to bother learning the native tongue of their host country. What other waste of money projects are there already in place for interpreters and the like I wonder.
I cannot imagine any sensible, civilised country who would think otherwise…..would they be racist too Mr scowcroft?
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This has nothing to do with racism whatsoever. All established islanders are sick of is an over populated island with the flood gates left wide open and our infrastructure ready to burst at the seams.
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Tobias
Since the beginning of time, man has moved in search of a better life…how do you think your ancestors got to Jersey?
No-one (for the moment) is stealing your air, there’s plenty for all, the immigrant is not an “Air Thief”.
As for Jersey being highly populated, that is a matter of opinion, immigrants boost the economy (look at Manhattan, one of the most highly populated areas in the world and also one of the richest).
You asked if it was being “racist” to expect people to attempt to integrate and at least learn the language of the country they move to…
No, it’s not racist, but it shows little understanding of the first-generation immigrant. These people come to work (and to work hard), in order to allow their children to have the opportunities they were denied.
Therefore, actually sitting down with a book after working more hours than “Big Ben”, is not as easy as it seems.
The result of the language barrier is poor integration (due to the immigrant’s fear of being misunderstood). This makes the host community withdraw from the new workforce and consider it as something alien.
The host community cannot be blamed but neither can the immigrants…I mean, would you try to intermingle with people who perceived you as “different”?
However, the number of immigrants will decrease naturally as the offer of work diminishes, so there will be no need to revert back to work permits, which fortunately, in Europe, belong to the past.
Jersey is a beautiful place that offers vast opportunities, but belongs only to those who truly love it…whatever their nationality.
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Tobias – I agree with your comment 2.I think it is simply ignorant to move to a new country and continue to speak only in your native language and make no attempt to integrate.When we were thinking of leaving Jersey for pastures new we ruled out France simply because we knew we wouldn’t be able to master the language well enough to integrate completely.Just to be able to order a meal or buy a loaf of bread was not good enough!
If it is racist to think the renaming of James Street to Rue de Funchal is daft then yes I must be a racist.Frankly I just think it is a complete waste of time.
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The true face of Jersey were racism and Discrimination go along well in one place.
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Using the “racist” accusation against people’s concerns regarding immigration and related topics is a well worn tactic of politicians when they want to put something out of the ball park to block legitimate discussion. Not to say that there weren’t some unpleasant comments on that thread but the vast majority were simply raising people’s legitimate concerns.
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Firstly, isn’t it the case that the Connetable has been rather intolerant of the views of those people who opposed the renaming of the raod?
Then there is the matter of the inherently divisive nature of what he has now achieved. Any reasonable person, let alone one with the liberal higher education enjoyed by Mr Crowcroft, would see that this unsophisticated grovelling to a community is something which was always bound to stir up trouble. Was that the objective? I think not but one must wonder at the naivety of the constable’s actions.
There is also the issue of what the portugeuse community might make of all this. Did anyone bother to canvass the portuguese view? That community must now bear the brunt of all this troublemaking. Furthermore, the renaming is hugely patronising and, bearing in mind the road in question, an equally large insult to a community which is held in considerable esteem.
Shame on all concerned.
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If that’s how you feel about the comments Simon, how do you think the Portugese community feels?
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cj (13) nice one.
which education system the non fee paying one subsidised by the tax payer or the fee paying one subsidised by the tax payer?
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I am so glad that i have moved away from Jersey.
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Well said “Born Warrior” I wish more people think like you, unfortunately his very sad in this day and age that some people look at the foreigners has a second class citizen.
But Once again this is Jersey were minds are small and egos too big for their heads.
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Perhaps if you stopped trying to win the Portugese vote then the rest of the island might take you seriously. Roll on party politics and the BNP
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only because the English language is the most spoken language in the world it does not give the right to anybody of criticizing of those who do not learn. because british go and live in many different countries and still keep on speaking english.
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Born Warrior
No sensible person is against immigration in a controlled form so please stop trying to preach your wisdom and accusing others of having “little understanding”.
Over-immigration boosts a lot of things not just the economy. It can boost crime, social unrest and division, ill-health and everything else that goes with an overstretched infrastructure.
Do you think Jersey should be another Manhattan with over 1.6 million people squeezed into 23 square miles?
Over-population isn’t just about not having enough room to fit everybody. It’s about having an infrastructure, economy or employment (amongst other things) that can support the population. Just look at the shanty towns of Sao Paulo or Townships of South Africa.
The question you have to ask is what about the economies of the countries these people are leaving? Or is it simply that some countries are bursting at the seams with their population and their people are spilling into other countries instead? Look at India and China.
Not everyone learns a language by just reading a book. Active integration and involvement with the local community is a good start to get passed the language barrier. I think you’ll find most people of any nationality are somewhat flattered and even respectful of someone who is trying to learn their own language. It shows a willingness to be involved and accepted.
I do have to disagree with your last comment. Where are these vast opportunities Jersey has to offer? Unless you have a spare £1/2 million in the bank then owning a property is a fading dream to most local and non-local residents. Diverse job opportunities are scarce unless you want to work in finance or…………..finance.
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All of this has nothing whatsoever to do with racism! Does the Constable think that by changing the name of a road (what was wrong with the original name?) will change things? And if so, how?
Poppycock! It is all about the heritage of the island and democracy. Just who was consulted or was the change done on a whim?
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I truly hope the word “racist” is dropped from this discussion, because Jersey’s home population (for the larger part)is warm and welcoming.
As far as I can see, what we have here are not “racist comments but “xenophobic comments”…and somewhere along the lines these two words, with wholly different meanings, have been used interchangeably.
Xenophobia is “a fear of strangers”, but the fear can be extended to people from other countries, cultures and religions, therefore, it is based on various aspects…and it is only a fear.
Racism is based solely on race and ancestry, which means there is a specific “target group”…and I hope and believe this is not the case.
The xenophobe is tormented by fear, the rascist is driven by hate.
Jersey is not a “cradle” of hate!
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I simply cannot believe all of this racist bilge over the renaming of a street that was named for a foreigner.
If we take it that the outrage is right then can we de-anglisize all of the other names in Jersey back to Jerriaise?
Personally I blame Queen Victoria.
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I think its more intolerence to these idiotic politicians than any other sort of hatred!
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The States have betrayed the local population in most of their recent policies. Decreasing housing qualification period, paying welfare handouts after 5 years, etc.
We never hear much about locals, always sob stories about immigrants.
Jersey people are being discriminated against, particularly over heathcare which is being swamped by new arrivals.
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Has anybody read Mr Crowcroft’s blog, as our lovely firewall won’t allow me access? Does he reveal what these racist comments were?
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This has just shown how out of touch Constable Crowcroft is with the people of Jersey. I agree that this racist slur is being used to draw attention away from the fact that this was a stupid idea, a waste of Rate Payers time and money and has no long term benefits.
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I´m Portuguese and live in Madeira Island!
Many UK Tourists visit all the years, the Island!
AND DON´T SPEAK PORTUGUESE, RIGHT?
SAD HISTORY from Channel Islands…
The people from UK and live in Madeira ( I HAVE MANY in my region ) they have THE SAME ???
NOT. Because in Madeira it´s NOT JERSEY!!!!!
Regards
Marco
Madeira Island – Portugal
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The re-naming of this street has got nothing to do with racism – rather it is yet one more step towards Jersey losing its unique identity. We have already lost much of the uniqueness of the Island through English place and street names and the awful modern architecture, not to mention piecemeal development.
Jersey has always had a mix of nationalities and this makes our culture that much richer so there is no problem with this, however when we start losing our Island identity then we have to start drawing a line.
Sorry Simon, I normally agree with you or can see where you’re coming from but not on this issue.
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http://www.dnoticias.pt/default.aspx?file_id=dn04010209060809
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The problem with the Constable is that he has been in the States for too long. He genuinely thinks “tolerance fairness and intelligence” exhibits itself in changing the name of a road in recognition of the “Madeiran community”.
Well, that’s rubbish. Tolerance and fairness means what you do in every day life. It doesn’t mean silly gestures that cost nothing and mean nothing.
And for what its worth, I don’t think the “Madeiran community” is a meaningful phrase, and I would be hard pushed to name one positive thing that the “Madeiran community” (or, for that matter, the “Scottish community”, the “St Ouen community” or any other community) has done for the island.
If we need to celebrate something lets name a road after a specific event or the deeds of a specific person (Minden and Pierson spring to mind). But a community? It’s just woolly thinking. Just because the voters don’t go “Baa!” doesn’t mean they are intolerant.
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Has Constable Crowcroft ever wondered how those that are jersey born, with jersey parents and jersey grandparents feel when they see printed in their passports that we have no right to work or reside within the EU – does he not think that this might add to the racism that appears in jersey?
As for the road name? it was fine the way it was… and no need to change it
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Marco
Hi Marco, hope all is well in Madeira,I didn’t understand what are you trying to say in your message, was it that people from the uk live in Madiera and dont speak the language too,
James
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Never have I lived anywhere so unwelcoming in the world as Jersey. There is massive resentment against everybody by a local population who feel like everybody else should work and pay for them to reminisce whilst they do nothing.
Where would the poor Jersey farmer be without the French, then the Portuguese and now the Polish workers? They certainly wouldn’t be working the fields themselves!
If the Jersey government chooses to allow people in to the Island, then we should not be second (or worse) class citizens.
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I am shocked by what I read here. Most of the comments have NOTHING to do with Mr Crowcroft’s concerns. Anybody bothered to read it? This is not about renaming a street or legitimate concerns to oppose it! It’s about racism! Racism is when you use alleged bad behaviour of some (real or imagined!) and extrapolate it to all members of a group that is distinguishable because of ethnicity, religion or other features. There is no distinction between racism, racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination (United Nations). Crowcroft cites a caller “You’ve had people most I would imagine were unemployed Portuguese while the locals are busy trying to work to support this island.” That caller’s remark is racism! It contradicts alleged superiority of one group against the alleged inferiority of another group in the context of ethnicity! Never mind that the statement is factually incorrect! Farming and the tourist industry would collapse without the foreign guest workers, for example! The very large majority is working had and significantly contributing to the island’s economy!
Some of the remarks here are racist too – not “just” xenophobia. # 2 Tobias and followers: You pretend that Crowcroft claimed that it is racist oppose those who “expect people to attempt to integrate and at least learn the language of the country they move to”. Crowcroft did not do that! Your attempt to discredit Crowcroft’s concerns is propaganda and defamation – Goebbels and Roland Freisler would have been very proud of you!
Another example – # 4 James writes: “are the scroungers who come over here from all over and there are no questions asked. Families come over and get everything handed to them on a plate, medical, child benefit and housing let alone food allowences and fuel allowences. I know this as i do know some of these people who laugh and joke how there taking the island for a ride, im sorry to say this but most of them are madieran/portugese or from the uk.” This is a myth! Nobody gets any support when arriving in Jersey! Even if it were so, the extrapolation to Portugese or Polish as a whole group is racism!
Interestingly, neither in this debate nor in any others, there is any appreciation for the guestworkers at all. Only negative. #3 Caz states “many foreigners have now taken on the attitude that this island should bend to their will but it is the island we have to blame” How do you know that? Where is the statistics? The data? I can easily contradict as I know many foreigners and NONE fits that inflammatory description! Being born to immigrants does not make you immune for racism!
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May be Crowcroft should spend less time being shocked about resistance to a change of street name and more time on the real issues facing St. Helier.
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Racism:- The belief that some races are inherently superior (physically, intellectually, or culturally) to others and therefore have a right to dominate them.
This isn’t racism it an observation by the general population that inherently politicians and parish officials are devoid of common sense and find it very easy to waste money when it’s not their own. If they want to name a street after Funchal why not pick a new road i.e down on the waterfront, rather than a road which already has a title, for which change will cause confusion and cost £1,000’s for the resident businesses and inhabitants to amend stationary and notify contact of the change.
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Firstly, isn’t it the case that the Connetable has been rather intolerant of the views of those people who opposed the renaming of the raod?
Then there is the matter of the inherently divisive nature of what he has now achieved. Any reasonable person, let alone one with the liberal higher education enjoyed by Mr Crowcroft, would see that this unsophisticated subordination of the local community is something which was always bound to stir up trouble. Was that the objective? I think not but one must wonder at the naivety of the constable’s actions.
There is also the issue of what the portugeuse community might make of all this. Did anyone bother to canvass the portuguese view? That community must now bear the brunt of all this troublemaking. Furthermore, the renaming is hugely patronising and, bearing in mind the road in question, an equally large insult to a community which is held in considerable esteem.
Shame on all concerned.
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Ok. So where do we put La Rue d’Edinburgh, La Rue de la Belfast and La Rue Dublin if we are to honour our immigrant population fairly? Better also have an Avenue de Beijing, Piece de Warsaw, Clos de Bangkok, etc.etc! On a serious note, Why change an established name anyway? The road and surrounding area needs tarting up, not simply re-branding. This is a backward step in my opinion and will do nothing to help immigrant intergration and may instead help to create (or even, dare I say, swell)an enclave in the middle of town.
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Regarding Pines comments “no 37″.
Whos fault is it that Jersey people cant work in the EU? Jerseys of course,not wanting to be part of the EU so that it can constantly breach human rights.So lets have none of that switching the sob story to suit oneself.
Im tired of that old pony,Jersey thinks its a law unto itself & expects special treatment while not playing by any rules & acting like its gods gift to the world.
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22 Dan
Well said, cannot comment on that, as for Marco’s comment I guess he was trying to say that there are lots of Brits living in Portugal and indeed elsewhere in Europe that don’t speak the language and make no attempt to integrate into local communities. After all English speaking communities are the worst ones for learning foreign languages. There is this misbelief that everybody is ought to speak English? Why …..
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24 “nelson only because the English language is the most spoken language in the world”
I think you’ll find that Mandarin Chinese is the language spoken by the greatest number of people in the world
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All Madeiran population, in Madeira Island read today in the ” Diário de
Notícias ” about this SAD question in Jersey.
Jersey are one “Xenophobia” GULAG ???
In XXI century, and many british THINK like DRAKE!!!!
So sad…
But in the future, i wope the people in Madeira OPEN this EYES to the British people…Because are ” racists ” whit European people!
I can´t imagine whi the other people in the world!!
It´s the SAME LONG BAD BRITISH HISTORY :
The “aborigenes ” in Austrália, the “Guetos” in Indía, and many parts of the World…
It is in the blod…
SHAME!
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james Posted August 6, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Marco
Hi Marco, hope all is well in Madeira,I didn’t understand what are you trying to say in your message, was it that people from the uk live in Madiera and dont speak the language too,
James
LIVE in Madeira ( not turists ) and NOT speak PORTUGUESE…
It´s the same quesion, or not?
But the people in Madeira, not cause any problem to the british community in Madeira…
But whit this ” Jersey case “, i dont now, if this situation change…
so Bad.
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BS Deluxe
“Uncontrolled immigration???”
…I never mentioned anything of the sort, what I said was:
“However, the number of immigrants will decrease naturally as the offer of work diminishes, so there will be no need to revert back to work permits, which fortunately, in Europe, belong to the past.”
You also took the words “little understanding” out of context, again what I said was:
“No, it’s not racist, but it shows little understanding of the FIRST-GENERATION IMMIGRANT…nothing to do with the economy or geopolitics, maybe you misread.
Furthermore, I do not wish to educate anyone, “Google” does an excellent job of that.
Although I must say I do have some understanding of the immigrants plight because…”Been there!”…”Done that!”
I emigrated many years ago (like your grandfather if I’m not mistaken) and had to learn a foreign language.
It didn’t take me long to learn, and do you know why?
Because I had the time and opportunity to study…it’s as easy as that.
Being able to speak the language allowed me to integrate with ease, and the only thing I have ever encountered abroad is hospitality and kindness.
Many past-generation, non-English speaking immigrants were schooled by hardships alone, and books and learning were for those with plenty of time and money.
In a nutshell…”No speak English, no can mix”…get it?
The new immigrants are well educated and learn English within a few months (if they don’t already speak it when they arrive), and thus integrate without any effort, so what is your problem with integration?
Are the new-immigrants taking top-tier jobs?
If the answer is “Yes”, then they are obviously more qualified/better suited to the positions than their Jersey counterparts.
No employer in his/her right mind would put their business at risk by putting an unsuitable person in a high position.
Are they pushing the price of houses up?
I don’t think so, most of them can’t even afford to think about buying a house (you must look elsewhere for the culprits).
Or are you referring to a specific community?
If so, be honest and name your “target”.
(please refer to 27).
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39 Non local
Change the record…..you know that is simply not true. Why do people like you always confuse a persons right to question unfair decisions with either racism or resentment.
I think you’ll find that a lot of local people feel they are being considered second class citizens themselves as you put it. Why do the locals not have a right to be upset in the same way immigrants are allowed and often encouraged if they feel they are being treated unfairly. Try and see an argument from both sides.
Michel 40
regarding your response to no.4….it happens. I have seen it first hand and it was a close friend of mine, a non-local couple who returned from europe after almost 10 years away; immediately given quallies back and within 2 months re-housed; given income support and “white goods” to furnish their new home all because they had kids. I’m local, but my partner isn’t although she’s been here for over 6 years, worked and paid taxes. She’s now redundant and cannot claim ANY income support or jobseekers allowance because I am still lucky to be in work. yet she still has to find a way to pay Social Security. This island stinks for everybody …. NOT JUST those who have moved here (unless you can work the system like the people in my story).
Please also note that James never mentioned Polish, you did, he mentioned “from the uk”. Does that make you racist?
You ask for stats, but anyone with a brain knows that stats are unreliable and can easily be doctored to suit a specific argument. If you looked (and believed) some ofthe police stats on crime then you’d feel a lot safer than you do in reality whilst walking through St Helier at 2am!
You ask of people to show appreciation to the “guestworkers”, but where is the appreciation for the hosts?? It goes both ways!
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What the Connetable cannot do apparently is to distinguish between alleged racism on the one hand – and total scorn for a failed attempt for cheap publicity.
Based on the precedent set by “Rue de Funchal”, can we now expect to see an “Avenue Pologne”, or a “Boulevarde des Ecosses”?
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I am bitterly disappointed in Mr Crowcroft. He has shown a complete lack of understanding with regards to the feelings of the majority of Jersey’s population. This is our island, and the Portuguese community have contributed greatly to it for many years, but to start naming streets in honour of them is a backward step. This has not brought the barriers of racism down, it has intensified them. What next? Krakow Avenue perhaps? It’s an absolute nonsense. Simon, you’ve made a terrible mistake, I hope you realise this
Jean
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What a thin veneer the notion of civilization really is,and a few small scratches reveal beneath the surface the sorry true nature of man,if you really want to get into this we could have an Avenue Auschwitz…or a Boulevard Bergen-Belsen, so as not to leave out the Poles and Germans among us.
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I find it very sad that, as usual, one small issue is all it takes for a minority of people to start coming out with the thinly veiled prejudice against anyone who is different from themselves. This island is for everyone who lives here and loves the island, is prepared to contribute and wants to treat everyone who lives here as equals, no matter where they come or how long they have been here.
I am, before i’m asked, Jersey born and bred and am proud of being so.
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I think Simon needs to address the problem with the excessive speed limit around St. Helier – 30 mph is excessive on any view.
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Marco… Brits living in Madeira should really show some respect to your island and learn Portugese. As for tourists, the absolute minimum should surely be hello, thank you, please, sorry… It really angers me that people are so rude (or lazy) that they will not bother to do this.
Mr Crowcroft will have to define racism. The definition has been butchered beyond belief and it gets in the way of tackling the problem. Most of what gets called racism nowadays is not, and that’s counterproductive. Even the definitions of race vary greatly. I tend to stick to the more visual epidermal/skeletal/muscular differences, other people take a much more nationality-based view.
I have been physically threatened just because of my skin colour, that is racism. Disliking someone who happens to be a different race to you is not NECESSARILY racism but people often jump to conclusions where race is the issue. No-one likes every single person that is the SAME race as them, why would they like every person that isn’t? Likewise for xenophobia.
The comments I’ve heard about the street signs were other nationalities being ‘neglected’ and the belief it was a political move and nothing to do with the residents (Portugese or otherwise). It is offensive that Jersey residents should be treated like idiots and not be given proper reasons for the choice of name, and offensive if any one community was used for cheap point scoring.
Cultures/religions/languages are different but people are very much the same and if you avoid someone due to any of these matters then you are probably missing out. Countries also have similarities in that you will find life much easier IN that land if you speak the language OF that land. It’s neither fair, nor financially viable to expect every country to cater equally for every single resident’s mother tongue (i.e. in government departments, hospitals, police, the education system etc) Since this could be hundreds of languages, I’d go as far as to say it’s impossible.
What is entirely possible is that when people make a land their home they make an effort to learn (just ONE) official language to a reasonable level such that they can deal with government bodies, emergency services, work colleagues, serve customers etc. fairly confidently. This not only shows respect but enables the person to have better employment opportunities, to better deal with their own finances, to mix with more people, handle emergencies, and can even prevent them being ripped off. Communication is key in life and for the other residents it can prevent misunderstandings (especially in the workplace) and can diffuse potential situations on the street. It is beneficial to everyone, but mostly for the person who want to make the land their home.
I have resisted making a complaint about a shop assistant who is consistently rude in case I was wrongly accused of being racist because English is not her first language. Well rudeness is rudeness and in this case is entirely unrelated to language issues, every staff member should be held to the same standards (regardless of nationality) so my mind is now made up and I will make a formal complaint.
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just because they change the name of the street for a Portuguese name people talk about racism since I know Jersey is an English island and has most of the streets names and places are French! so whats the point of this racism stuff?
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GTR, when you take both sides of the Jersey/EU situation it is ridiculously biased against Jersey. No country/nation should EVER be blackmailed into joining the EU if the citizens do not wish to… and you could say that is what the UK did to Jersey. It is the citizen’s country after all, such a major decision should require a referendum. Being born and raised in the UK I am appalled that my then Government did such a thing to this island!
For many joining the EU would be a very negative thing, surely the only thing worse is being forced to join it but in ‘one-direction’ only (as has happened to Jersey)!
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Marco, you will know that all Madeirans are not the same you must also know that all Brits are not the same. Of course, the situation is never going to be helped by newspapers, these types of stories will sell papers!
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I cannot believe the absolute bile being banded about. A lot of my friends who were born here have Portuguese parents. ALL of their parents learnt to speak English and are integrated into the community. In fact, when I would visit, they would speak English amongst themselves so that I wouldn’t feel left out. I think there is a perception that the Madeiran community don’t integrate. I don’t know where it comes from, but it is false.
I can honestly say I’ve witnessed my friends being spat at on the street or verbally abused because they look Portuguese. I never realised, but the word “porco” in Portuguese actually means “pig”. Despite that, I regularly heard it being used in their presence. They rarely complained, but maybe they should have said something, because I don’t even think some people truly understood what they were actually saying. I think integration means that BOTH SIDES have to make an effort. I know how intimidating it is to be walking past a group of people speaking a language you don’t understand. It brings up threatening feelings of suspicion, which is normal but unfortunately feeds into irrational fear and false perceptions. Most of the time it’s just cultural misunderstandings and nothing else.
As for the street name, who cares? The majority of street names are in jersiaise or English. Jersey’s culture or identity will not be threatened by this, because I suspect it was supposed to be a small gesture. I think that there is underlying tension in Jersey about the Portuguese community, and it doesn’t take much for it bubble up. Certain individuals use it as an excuse to have a dig. Of course, “they’re not being racist”. They’re just tired of the “bleeding-heart liberals shovelling political correctness and being a soft touch”. One of my friend’s dad had a full-time job, he also used to clean offices and then do bar work on Saturdays and sometimes work as a waitor during weeknights. (Yes he did pay social). Can you honestly put your hand on your heart and say that this man is a lazy good for nothing that is depriving Jersey of its culture or taking advantage of the le Jersey-borns? Jersey doesn’t even help its own, why on earth would it help others?
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no 51 BS Deluxe: a so they had residential qualifications after all despite having been away for 10 years.
Of course, racism is not solely against Portuegese or Polish but can (and indeed is) also targeted against UK nationals! That’s exactly what James did. I cited the Polish because they are heavy targets here and everywhere on this site where anybody has any grief. I could give you the statistics but, presto, you don’t accept statistics anyway.
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Haven’t you lot realised yet that ‘Marco’ is a classic wind-up?
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i totally agree with Fred ’44′
when will we have streets named after other parts of the world? we wouldnt want other nationalities to think we are being racist towards them would we??
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Michel 40
You are right…there is no distinction between racism, racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination (United Nations).
But I am convinced that what you interpret as “racist comments” are really “xenophobic comments”.
I am arachnophobic, so the first thing I shout out when I see a spider is “KILL IT! KILL IT!”
I don’t really want to see the thing “crushed” under the biggest shoe available, what I really want to say is “Stop my fear!”
And if you read between the lines, these people are crying out “Stop my fear!”
It’s a cry from the heart, they are afraid they (or their children/grandchildren) will be unable to find a job, buy a house or even follow the local customs. They are afraid that resources are running out and that infrastructures will burst at the seams.
Is that racist? No, it’s fear.
It is the fear the “politicians” must erase.
The people who are “angry” here, are the same people who would be the first to help you if you had a flat tyre or were stuck in a ditch…regardless of your “ethnic” group.
There is not one word in this thread that expresses real “race hate”…it’s more like race misunderstanding…
Maybe this thread will help the politicians to see what’s really going on “outside the office”, and get to grips with these problems.
By the way, fortunately my partner isn’t afraid of spiders, so they get picked up and put in the garden, where they live happily ever after…I hope we can too!
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Friend of Dorothy, I know people who have been here 2 decades and still have no English, and I do mean a level such that I would have thought to be virtually impossible but it seems it isn’t.
It will be the minority, but as with many situations the minority often cause the problems. This ‘racism’ issue isn’t really about any specific nationality at all it is just about two mindsets of people, those who integrate with other nationalities and those who don’t. I know Madeirans in the first category and they take issue with those in the second every bit as much as their non-Madeiran friends.
You’re lucky in only knowing people from the ‘majority’. Those of us that know people from the minority have genuine concerns about them intentionally segregating into little ghettos like has happened in many parts of the UK.
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I’m not at all surprised by the racist comments. Jersey is an island completely based on status and prejudice. This is why we have a quallies system, so we can create huge social divisions of a ‘them and us’ scenario. I am born & bred Jersey, and I strongly believe all qualification requirements should be scrapped.
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I ve been in jersey for a long time now and this doesn’t surprise me at all. Anything to do with portuguese, polish is the subject of this kind of commemts. It’s always been like that. People in jersey have this mentality about being better, knowing better bla bla – all rubbish. I don t care about the street name. I just wish people could handle the drink and in jersey that doesn’t happen. Every day it gets worse.
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I realy don t care what this island will b in the future or if there will b another street changing name.I DON T CARE.I m not local so just do my job and laugh at the things i see and listen from some of the jersey people.LOOK IN THE MIRROR PEOPLE.
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Leah, here you go again focusing on the problems of foreigners who don’t fully intergrate into British Culture. Equal too, if not greater than, are the problems of our fellow countrymen who go abroad and blatently do not intergrate. let alone the fact that in past history Britannia took over three quarters of the planet and enforced our language and culture onto millions innocent people and culture, destroying forever a huge variety of other peaceful cultures.
So instead of jumping on your ridiculously high horse look to your own culture first before slagging off others. Or would you rather hark back to the days fo Rule Britannia?
Surely as a Scot you should understand what it feels like to have your own country and culture ripped from under your feet by English superior colonialists!
I don’t mean to patronise you but you have consistantly put down decent and often peacefull foreigners who exercise their human right to maintain their own language and culture. Who are you to tell them what they should and should not do?
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I dont see what all the fuss is about, its a bridge between to obviously highlighted seperate communities and i dont see what wrong it can cause, people on this island lose track of whats important and constantly moan about the unimportant…. its these sorts of people that cause such divides in the first place, between portuguese and jersey, between young and old… wake up and read some books and see the world… its all quite sad for you people
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Michel
That is correct. The husband acquired them because although born in UK he was schooled here. Shortly after he got them he moved away with his wife and only just returned to have them handed back to him on a plate. This is not fair on those that have been working and living in this god forsaken island contributing to the econnomy and still haven’t acquired their quallies.
Jersey stinks.
I am local born and as much as I am completely indifferent to all nationalities (my fiancee is African…and I like everyone from all countries) what I cannot stand is this excuse for a government who do not listen to the majority (or even the minority) and make stupid decisions on what they perceive will be greatly appreciated….all this without asking anybody first.
As for the Dean suggesting this street name…..what on earth has it got to do with the church to get involved?
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….and in response to some comments who seem to think it is only the jersey person making racist comments…….get real.
On the football pitch I have seen more racist remarks between Polish and Portuguese players over the last couple of seasons than I have ever seen during the previous 20 between locals and other nationalities! Please do not presume it is always the natives who are hostile and racist. A lot of criminal gangs and the like either fight amongst each other or with other immigrants rather than with the natives….take a look at the many different criminal gangs there are in London now borders are open to anyone. How many of them are indigenous??
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human you seem to have a real problem understanding anything I say so best leave it at that. When I speak of foreigners I mean ANY foreigners (be it me abroad, a German in Australia, a South African in Russia) the fact that you assume racism or xenophobia into that speaks more of you than it does of me. Just because I am living in Jersey, in case you hadn’t noticed integration between nationalities is a worldwide problem.
And why even start with your Rule Britania nonsense, it just shows that you’re not reading… I don’t have a British heritage so while it doesn’t bother me being called British (it is on my passport after all) it doesn’t mean anything to me either and I can’t remotely relate to what some might term the ‘British culture’.
If and when your life is made more difficult because your colleagues expect you to do things for them (because they can’t understand the language), if and when you are treated like a ‘second-class immigrant’ by other immigrants then I guess maybe you’ll actually have a clue what’s going on in this world!
Since you’ve ignored most of what I’ve said in favour of drawing your own bizarre conclusions let me remind you that I haven’t been annoyed at anyone due to their race, language or culture, but only with those (of whatever nationality) who act like they are superior to their fellow Jersey residents by not making any effort to mix outside one specific nationality. If that’s not a superiority complex what is?
I don’t believe there is anyone in this world who honestly thinks that ghettoisation is a good thing? It’s a negative but it’s growing (due to some PC nonsense) and it will divide and ruin nations.
Still, if the day comes that you are not welcome in a specific part of Jersey because you are the wrong nationality then I don’t doubt you’ll understand then what I meant!
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I have read most of the comments here and agree with many as well as have some disagreements with others. That’s what makes us human and different. I have many great friends who are Portugese, Polish and English all living in Jersey and with whom we have had discussions about this type of thing (intergration).
My Portugese friends are extremely embarassed about the way the incoming generation of fellow countrymen feel that we owe them something even though it wasn’t them here during the war or just after helping us out, it wasn’t their parents who worked here so hard to help the Tourist industry to flourish and do so well. Sadly the ones who have upset almost the entire population of Jersey have no real connection but come here for an easy life and drag the good name of the “real Portugese settlers” down in to the gutter and beyond!
The same thing happened with the French farm workers after the war when the Portugese started to arrive. They wanted everything for nothing and to be paid well for not a lot of return. In comparison at that time the Portugese wanted to work hard to improve theirs and their families lives and standards of living. We have gone full circle and now we have the Polish coming in lets hope they can set a better example. Many of them come over do the work they intended and then have gone again.
Marco makes an interesting comment about intolerance because someone does not speak the language. I think it is highly insulting and very rude to go to a country let alone to live in a country and not be able to speak the language. I really want to go on holiday to Italy, but as yet I haven’t been as I can’t speak italian yet (although I am trying to learn so that I can go sometime soon) I also would like to go to Portugal but again I want to learn some portugese first. I will never be fluent in Languages but to even lear just a few sentences to speak on holiday shows I am interested and prepared to make the effort. Is it so much to ask that to live in a country you at least learn the language. If you cannot communicate you alienate yourself therefore you cannot blame anyone else. Do not expect your 7 year old child to do the work for you because they are in the education system. I have seen this happening when I used to help teach reading at a town based school!
Someone else has also commented about the difference between true racism and fear and you know what – they hit the nail on the head. I can even recognise certain aspects of that in myself. I am Jersey and yes I can trace my family back to before 1066 so don’t try and fob me off with the your ancestors didn’t come from here because mine did, however, there have been some imports along the way with out which there would be no Jersey as everyone would have died out but there was a time when people came here for a reason including working for a better life or marriage or other family relations not trying to get the best deal to do the least or no work. And don’t think this only applies to the european nations I know of 2 South African couples who are here for the exact same reason and say that once they have put their kids through school they will go home. BRING IN WORK PERMITS AND STOP THIS NONSENSE!!!!!
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Mr Crowcroft, we all know you read these threads. Have you got anything to say about these further comments?
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Mr S. In response to your own comment: “makes me wonder what our expensive education system is doing to inculcate tolerance, fairness and intelligence in our young people”.
Maybe they are learning from the actions and incompetemce of those who govern us.
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To his Reverence the Dean
Father, with all the respect in the world, next time you get a “Great Idea”, count to a MILLION and then forget it!
I hate to say this, but you have done more damage than good.
And Mr Crowcroft,
next time you wish to honour those who have helped Jersey to prosper and grow, take no risks and do it on a “To-whom-it-may-concern” basis!
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I agree completely with Simon Crowcroft.
The ingnorance shown by some of those posting comments is all too obvious as are their attempts to excuse their rascist views.
Those who talk about a refusal to integrate and learn to speak the local language might like to reflect on the fact that until the First World War the common every day languages for most of the locals in Jersey were French and Jersey French. How many of the English who moved to Jersey in the 19th Century
bothered to learn the local languages? How many of those who have posted comments would even understand the words on the First World War memorial in Broad Street?
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Wow what a lot of controversy on this issue.
I figure we all need to respect diversity – I don’t particulaly care where a person comes from, or about the colour of their skin. We are all citizens of planet earth and should do our best to get on with everyone – okay I might be accused of trying to over simplify the arguement, but it works for me.
Having said that, I can’t see the point in re-naming James Street and feel the Connetable would be better employed encouraging the cops to try to make the streets safer.
I think Mr. Crowcroft should engage his brain before coming up with crass ideas like re-naming a street.
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This really is not the Jersey Way, Simon made a big mistake and has opened a can of worms.
All racial tensions should be swept under the carpet.
What if a national newspaper printed an article about this?
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67 Beaumont
That’s the most sensible comment I’ve read so far, glad there are some Jersey born people that think that way.
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all this comments just show the reality of the jersey persons,it’s all fine if the non jersey person is serving you at your nearest restaurant but as soon someone give a steep forward it’s considered a insult to you.you know why mr Crowcroft react this way? because in his recent visit to madeira he was treated in a way that none of you will treat us”with respect and dignity”
learn with the others and dont think you are the centre of the world because the only thing you got good is the money not yourselfs
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39 Non local,
Where are you from and where have you lived?
You say you have never lived anywhere more ‘unwelcoming’ than Jersey. I have travelled around the world and would say that this Island is the most friendly and welcoming place I have ever been.
And will this stop at Rue de Funchal?
This is ridiculous. You cannot change a street name! Its named for a reason.
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Theoretical one for those who think I’m being racist.
Take the island of earthland, say ALL people originally from x-land only spoke x-ish, people from y-land only y-ish and people from z-land only z-ish… what do people think would happen long-term? Has anyone actually considered the long-term effects of this type of situation?
It’s x, y and z because people obviously attach their own emotions to the mention of any actual nationality! So be it.
So how do people think earthland would operate? What would happen with the Government? the education system? Where would the money come from for all the new public sector jobs that would be required? How would GP surgeries and hospitals operate? How would individuals interact? How would accidents be resolved? How would potential flare-ups be calmed?
My belief is that you would have complete and utter segregation of every single nationality with serious fights when accidents or flare-ups did occur. To me that is obvious, it is already happening in the UK, the US, Australia, probably in most countries. With that segregation would come suspicion, ignorance and resentment, followed closely by fear and hatred (let’s be fair, we cannot change the fact that we are human). Oh look, we’ve managed to create a racist/xenophobic land! How proud would we be?
On the other hand you can have people from x-land STILL speak x-ish, from y-land STILL speak y-ish… well you get the idea… they can all STILL celebrate their OWN distinct culture and festivals. On top of this they all choose to speak a bit of earth-ish, not the whole language, just how much they personally need to communicate effectively in their day to day dealings. Some may even speak Pigeon earth-ish. Now everyone on earthland can communicate with each other to some degree regardless of nationality. Everyone can actually learn about each other’s cultures. Earthland festivities can take influence from all the cultures whilst not neglecting its own history and culture.
The sad thing is that the first option automatically happens if it isn’t prevented, yet the second CAN be done, it CAN work. Unfortunately it only needs a minority of humans to not want to mix and it ceases to matter that the majority don’t give a hoot what nationality or race their neighbour is!
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#80..Dave so many problems in Jersey have been swept under the carpet the hump has reached Everest proportions!
With the percentage of “local” now well under 50% who determines what is the “Jersey Way”?
The Island needs to address how it has reached this “problem” with the Portuguese and other minority communities. Simply,it has come from economic reasons. Firstly, the French farmworkers in the 50″s were cheap labour.Following the efforts of De Gaulle in reviving the Normandy and Brittany regions,better paid jobs became abailable became available in France so the workforce declined.Some clever farmers discoverd a new source of cheap labour..Madeira..so in they came(on work permits at that time) but were sent home at the end of the season,hence no real difficulties arose. Then, Portugal joined the EC and their citizens obtained equal rights to work anywhere in the community. Part of our deal to remain “outside” the EC was that we had to give freedom of entry to all citizens of member countries.So,as their were plenty of jobs here,the Madeirans came in larger numbers,saw that the locals found it beneath their dignity to work on farms or in various other service industries(partly because the employers would not pay decent wages)and took over those sectors.They became quite wealthy and many have built family homes back in Madeira as a result of being here. The island,in the ongoing search for wealth, tolerated this “takeover” and bent over backwards to keep them happy as it knew it had become so reliant on this sector it reached a stage where it couldn’t survive without them if it wanted to continue its pursuit of profit at all costs.
Times change,jobs aren’t readily available for “locals” now so who to blame?? Easy,the “foreigners” who all seem to have work (maybe because they are still doing the jobs others wouldn’t think of doing?).
Street name change? When have local politicians ever considered what the “people” think? SC didn’t even ask the Portuguese about this!
The problems of “racism” in the island are far deeper than the comments prompted by this idiotic decision and will not go away while greed(paying as little as possible to get things done) continues to rule the roost.
PS. Has Madeira named a street after Jersey in recognition of the huge benefits its citizens have obtained from being here??
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Leah Holmes, you are again on your crusade against those who, as you allege, don’t speak English in Jersey. Even if that were true: what’s the problem? Why getting so fanatic about it? You are a demagogue in your attacking “Human” by saying “you assume racism or xenophobia into that speaks more of you than it does of me” You have written yourself in a section about racism. Why? Does your ranting (in a discussion on racism) about those who seem to disturb you so much by not speaking English say anything about racism? Your remarks to “Human” just show an incredible level of ignorance and arrogance.
You are an immigrant yourself. Have you forgotten that English displaced Jerriais and French. In fact, not only the language but also the culture. With the exception of street names, there is little trace of the the indigenous culture left. Same in India, Kenya, Southern Africa and so forth, where we enforced English. Well, but we have won the war (with the help of the US) and so all what we have done must be all right, even suppressing others after we fought for our freedom in WWII. “Human” is 100% spot on.
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Even if a British person like Jersey girl were able to trace their ancestors back to the Norman invasion of England, the only conclusion which they could draw from this is that they themselves were descended from foreigner invaders who settled in this island, who in turn were descended from Scandanavian immigrants as are all Teutonic peoples. This is a point I raise with members of the BNP who see white British people as “indigenous” to these shores, ignoring the melting pot of immigrants and invaders such as the Jutes, Danes, Normans, Vikings, Romans and Celts.
I do disagree with this name change but only because I see it as so much window dressing. It doesn’t strike at the heart of the problem as Constable Crowcroft is finding to his cost that Jersey people can be extremely narrow minded and xenophobic.
As a graduate in modern foreign languages I can tell you that it can take years to achieve full fluency. While you may be able to find examples of people who have come to this country with a low level of English, doesn’t that say more about the provision for learning foreign languages in their own country rather than the people themselves?
In addition to this, do we provide free English lessons to immigrants to Jersey as in the UK? If not, we can hardly complain if they are not as fluent as we would like, especially given that the nature of the work they do generally requires little spoken or written skills in our language.
My real objection to this seems to be on behalf of the Portuguese community, I read a very interesting comment from a girl from a Portuguese family above which mentions that there was no level of consultation with the community prior to this decision!
It’s almost as if we’re treating workers who come to Jersey like children saying, “Look, we like you! We even have a street named after you! Now run along,” no doubt while giving them a shiny fifty pence piece to buy themselves a bag of sweets.
Jersey’s problem is that it has a mindset about foreign people and cultures which dates back to somewhere in the nineteen fifties. We need to recognise the benefits of diversity and stop clinging to these old prejudices.
Frankly I view this kind of mindset like I view all white British people who come out with the same tired mantra of “Britain for the British” – it’s embarrassing, this is the 21st Century people!
NJ.
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( NJ 88)
You clearly dont shop in some of the places that I unfortunately have to. Your comment “especially given that the nature of the work they do generally requires little spoken or written skills in our language” amazes me.
Where else could you choose come to another country, and be employed in a shop but not be able to speak the local language or understand the currency. This is a fact.
I wouldn’t consider myself a racist, but could I go to France and get away with that ? Germany ? Anywhere where the language is different to your own ? NO – so why here ?
I have lots of friends born here that have Portuguese parents and even they are aghast that these are acceptable employment standards.
As for free english lessons, are you for real ?
What are you on about ?
The renaming of that road ?
Embarrassing. Hilgrove St. will always be French lane. It’ll be decades before Rue De Funchal will be used in everyday language, then no doubt, it will be renamed Rue de Krakow by someone else.
Groundhog Day anyone ?
Pathetic
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Aside from all the issues about racism on this matter, does it not appear to be the biggest waste of money in these troubled times? Surely everyone should be tightening their belts and trying not to throw money away, and instead use it in a more effective manner? It won’t be a matter of simply renaming the street. There will no doubt be a (considerable) cost involved in re-printing maps, street signs etc all for the sake of this pointless proposal.
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FFS….please stop talking about history and who (nearly everybody’s) immigrant ancestors are…..we all decsended from Africa apparently so every single person outside is an immigrant if you want to be that pedantic about it. Remember that it wasn’t just England exploring and enforcing their way of live on the world….Spain and Portugal were big contributors to this too. Just look at the Americas. Some of you people who spout on about historical facts all the time seem to neglect the argument about other nations doing exactly the same thing!
Let’s please talk about the present and how and why these issues are arising and affecting is NOW.
I agree with some extent to a point Leah is trying to make and that is language. When entering a new country you MUST adapt to the new language even if it is just to get by. There are many risks involved if you don’t…..such as reading road signs (No Entry for example), or warning signs, parking signs (or the private landowners and their clampers benefit)….the list goes on.
No-one is saying leave their culture at the doorstep when entering Jersey or even their language, but please do not make the lives of your hosts more difficult or even unsafe by not being able to communicate.
How would you like a foreign doctor to remove the wrong organ during surgery because of language problems???
Oh and to the earlier posters who mentioned about brits not segregating themselves in a foreign country. That may be true of places like Spain, but remember that they also do not get any help from the Spanish authorities and still have to pay their taxes. When work runs dry then they have to move elsewhere or return home. There are no benefits like the ones we give out to anyone who arrives on these shores.
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Just to make it clear that Rozel above is a different one!
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I am Portuguese and don’t see the point of Rue de Funchal, this is Jersey not Madeira!
It is true, when we come to this Island we should learn the language, we should try to socialise with all races, not just our own, and we should be thankful that over here we can have a life that we couldn’t in our own country, but it is also true that there are some racist people in Jersey. I have been personally attacked for being Portuguese, called ”Portuguese scum” told to ”go back to my third world country” and laughed at when I pronounced something wrong in English. I have also come across some Portuguese people who refuse to even learn the language and protest that every shop in Jersey must have Portuguese speaking staff to help them, and moan when they can’t get a job because their English is so poor and then demand that the States pay for them to stay home.
It was very hard for me when I arrived in Jersey 14 years ago, I can understand not getting nice jobs as my English was poor but I NEVER understood why us ”non locals” were forced to pay high rents for tiny rooms and shared toilets? Families sharing a double room? Why do that if not for the simple fact that immigrants were (and maybe still are) seen as ”inferior”?
I can see what both sides are saying, but I find it laughable how anyone can say Jersey is the most Welcoming place they know, you must ever never left the Island if you truly believe that.
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Kiwi
What complete nonsense you write. Who do you think named your country New Zealand? The locals?
How many street names in Jersey do you think have already been changed from the original French to English? At least this time we got to vote on it.
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This will never end and 4 me was just another excuse as usual to take it on the portuguese.We are not welcome here and we know that. Anything 2 to whith portuguese is bad in this island.But we are strong and here 2 stay..GET THAT?Hope so
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Rozel (not Aubin) read post 85. That should explain where I’m coming from… I’m looking at where behaviours lead. I posted that thread because I really would love to know what solution people with your opinion have for preventing situations like have happened in the UK.
The question is open to anyone of any nationality since other immigrants here in Jersey may have experienced similar ‘ghetto-isation’ in their country of birth. They may have experience of a method that actually worked, but being from the UK I can assure you the UK has yet to find it. The UK did what Jersey is doing (although not quite as severe) and things are getting seriously out of hand.
You’ve clearly not read much since (like human) you don’t realise I’m an immigrant in JERSEY! And no, I’m not English! I don’t even particularly like the English language. Incidentally, I have been treated as a ‘second-class immigrant’ by other immigrants cause apparently speaking English must mean the Jersey rules don’t apply to me (except they DO!)
As I’ve always said, there is fault on BOTH sides when it comes to integrating. Those who think it is just about the ‘locals’ are kidding themselves. Do they even realise that ‘locals’ have many nationalities? If we want an integrated society then the onus is on ALL of us, not just some. As always the majority of humans seem to realise their responsibility, the problems will be caused by the minority that dont!
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Fatima, as another ‘inferior immigrant’ I can totally see where you’re coming from.
I happen to have English as one of my first languages, but if it helps any I have been laughed at for MY pronounciation and have experienced a lot of anti-UK resentment, which obviously feels a bit personal when you are from the UK.
I sometimes wonder how many of the xenophobes are Jersey-born. I’ve witnessed Italians abuse the Madeirans, Madeirans abuse the Polish, Polish abuse the UK nationals. It’s everyone, but the most important thing is it all makes Jersey less welcoming.
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what a load of rubbish has been written on this subject i think its great we try to encourage a more diverse community,so if calling a simple street a different name gives us a more mediterranean feel that’s perfect. I am local have lots of friends from different countries, those on here who have written derogatory remarks about our fellow Europeans should hang their heads in shame, just think of all the soldiers of many different countries in Afghanistan putting their lives on the line for the freedom we have today.
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The more comments I read the more I realize that this is a “straight-across-the-table” struggle.
Ordinary folk from ALL the communities sitting down “Cenacolo” style at the same table, each one squabbling to get their “chunk” of the loaf…while the crafty bakers are laughing up their cuffs because they’ve got the keys to the “flour mill”!
So maybe we should put an end to all this disunity and stop squabbling amongst ourselves…and instead, take a long look at what’s going on down at the “mill”.
United we stand, divided we fall…right into the hands of the “crafty gang”.
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I had an interesting coversation with a german holiday maker in the pub last night and he spoke to me in his best english, So if a holiday makler can make the effort to speak in our local language why can,t our immigrant population?
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After reading all the racist comment here I have to say something. I think it’s time the so called locals got a wake up call, and saw how much immigrants, foreigners and so on… have contributed to the island!
What I say is this. I will arrange a boycott of all local-owned business by immigrants for a week. Maybe this will stop you from being racist!
In silence we can’t stay!
Stand up! Speak up! Racism, no thanks.
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After reading Mr. Crowcroft’s response to the renaming of St James street, what i find shocking is how a politacal decession which has clearly back fired and not had the response he was hoping for is then blamed on the education system, in short, its the teachers fault then is it Simon?
I agree with Caz No.3. He should read her comment.
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Lets get some facts right folks
1 )this is Jersey ,it has its own heritage ,let’s keep it that way
2) The portuguese community,the consulate,Madeira, NO ONE ,UNDERSTAND THIS !!NO ONE was approached with regards to this matter,its a private idea within ths states members NOT of portuguese origin.
3)I am one of the portuguese folks living in here who ALSO find this idea to be rather funny more than anything and i dont agree with it -but thats just my own personal point of view thats all
4)with regards to adapting to the language,its a different matter all together,There are Jersey BORN folks who have properties in Madeira and they can advise you that they DONT speak portuguese and they get on by just fine speaking in english,same as in Spain and evrywhere else,we dont MIND people who cannot speak the lingo its normal nowadays and we dont expect it either anywhere in the world (travel a bit and you will know this to be the case )in the same tune you cannot expect any class of immigrants to speak your language ,its just impossible and will never happen ,there are 6.913 languages in the world,english is just one,bear that in mind.
5 ) Diversity has to be respected,you respect mine i respect your’s ,thats the way we all live life and always will be
6)No matter what anyone says portuguese people and also the french helped shaped up Jersey its a fact ,nothing you can do about it.
Last and certanly not least ,all the Jersey born folks do realise that yourselves are immigrantes in your own way,Jersey was a french island not british.
Cheers and vive la Rue de Funchal LOL ;-}
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PS :Leah out of curiosity,,
Do you have an issue with people not speaking engish even though they have been here for about 20 years because they are stuck in a farm picking potatoes from 6 am until 8 pm evryday with other emigrantes who came from a rural background and they do this so that you can
1) not have to have your kids (for example ) doing that job and work those hours
2)put food on your table -the potatoes do come from somewhere ,hope you know that ??
Just out of curiosity really ,cheers
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I ,afer reading all this comments ,i have come to the conclusion that there are so many people in this island that have racism issues in relation to portuguese languange and culture…. although ,i have experience English people that were living in Madeira for more than 10 YEARS and they coldn’t even say a word in portuguese ,So i ask .WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT ???
About the name changing ,in my opinion i don’t agree with that ….this decision wasn’t the portuguese people decision … stop blaming them .
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Re 84: London, S Africa, Sydney & Hong Kong – all for over 2 years working in each. Sure there is always resentment in certain areas, but not so underlying as here. There are some really big chips on these locals shoulders!
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I’d like people to answer one simple question.
We know nobody was consulted about this.
Therefore: does anyone think this proposal would have been made if there was no prospect of the people making the decision having a jolly to Madeira (partly or wholly on expenses and/or with lots of freebies thrown in) as a result?
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