Green lane speed limits to increase?
Wednesday 5th August 2009, 3:00PM BST.
Deputy Daniel Wimberley
A JERSEY politician has proposed increasing speed limits in green lanes to 20 mph – but doing much more to enforce the limit and penalising those who break it.
Deputy Daniel Wimberley has written to the review group looking at Islandwide speed limits, welcoming the project and saying that many of his parishioners have called or written to him about the issue of speed.
He added said that raising the green lane speed limit from 15 mph to 20 mph would be sensible – but only if it was properly enforced.
He said that would allow the States to set up three easy and consistent speed bands: 20 mph for urban roads, village centres, near schools when pupils are around, and all narrow roads; 30 mph if there are frontages on one or both sides of the road; and 40 mph everywhere else.
• See Wednesday’s JEP for full story.
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You might as well leave them as they are, everyone drives at 20 anyway.Driving at 15 is an endurance test, nobody does it.
As for enforcement, we can’t even get the police to enforce the 30mph limit on the underpass where every day I’m overtaken by drivers doing 40 plus.
I think speed limits should be like the price on the back of a paperback book – reccommended but not obligatory.
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I personally live on a green lane and it enrages me that almost all cars, motorbikes, etc tare down the road and never adhere to the 15 mph limit. I myself adhere to it because I know how annoying it is when people do not! At the moment nobody enforces the 15mph – so why would someone enforce the 20mph? If I had my way I would REDUCE the speed limit even further to 5mph – that way people may actually reduce to 15mph as we had originally hoped!!
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I waiting with bated breath for the backlash from good old Mrs Rosemary Bead. You said you wanted a 20mph speed limit, but I bet you didn’t bargain on it being as a result of an increase in the speed limit. I bet she’s choking on her mid-afternoon country slice.
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The enforcement of speed limits on the island is risible.
I get regularly overtaken while driving along Victoria Avenue and the Five Mile Road at 40mph by cars doing much more than that.
Speed cameras and a bunch of clerks posting out the photos and instant fines, let’s say £5 for every mile over the limit would raise huge amounts and see the beginning of enforced speed limits.
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That’s one small step for a man, one giant leap for Rosemary Bead!
I was quite disappointed when I didn’t find a “Rosemary” comment…the lady is slipping.
Come on woman, don’t let them get away with this…
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Perhaps while Deputy Wimberley is addressing the speeding issues, he could also look at the problem hard core of White Van Men who invariably drive without their seat belts !!!!!
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Motorists are soft targets these days as a cash cow for various departments.
The standard of driving here is much better than the mainland and due to the very nature of our roads here and congestion, it’s much more difficult to speed on many of our roads.
The police have enough to do – just look at today’s headline about the importation of drugs – let them get on with being more productive in these areas. Let’s get real here drugs destroy many more lives than someone doing 20 miles in a 15 limit.
This whole affair smacks of a Big Brother encroachment prevalent in the UK – do you really want to go down that line here in Jersey? I most certainly don’t.
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I think this is a good idea provided the limits are properly enforced. Perhaps one hidden portable automatic speed camera with decent fines and multiple offences leading to loss of car or licence.
The revenue could go towards improving the bus service and schemes to get kids walking and cycling to school.
Speed limits on many roads are too high also, if people disagree try walking along some country roads.
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A friend of mine, who is a Hobbie Bobbie was doing a speedcheck in a Green Lane.
Over the period of 1hour they stopped 6 cars for Doing over 20mph, 5 of those stopped, lived in the lane!!
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Pip I agree, I cannot understand why we don’t have speed cameras given the governments appetite for extracting cash. They wouldn’t have to do any real police work, it’d be like shooting fish in a barrel.
I am daily overtaken on the avenue and underpass whilst driving at the legal limit, what happened to the motorcycle traffic cops who used to sit above the underpass?
The worst offenders seem to be women taking their kids to school with total disregard for their speed. I saw one doing her lippy whilst driving at over 40, I nearly spilt my coffee on the crossword.
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It seems ludicrous to have 15, 20, 30 and 40 mile limits on an Island the size of Jersey.
Scraping the green lanes for a 20 or 30 limit makes some sense.
HOWEVER 20 in urban areas is VERY slow and if we have 30 where there are “frontages” then this will effectively be 70% plus of the Islands roads
I do not condone speeding and 20 by schools does make sense and should be vigorously enforced but moving down to 30 is a step backwards…
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Pip you seem to have hit the nail on the head but missed the point?
Speeding enforcement is rarely about making the roads safer but about raising revenue.
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I am afraid that a 5mph speed limit won’t work for me. My speedo starts at 10!
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@Pip Clement: I don’t believe that speed cameras will ever be the solution in the island – it’ll take a week for everyone to find out where they are and program themselves to automatically slow down whenever they’re near. The only way I can see it working effectively is pointing cameras all over the place, which of course has massive financial/privacy implications.
On the main proposal, I think a higher, better enforced limit on green lanes is a fair compromise.
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I have just seen Deputy Wimberly being interviewed on last nights Channel Report and he talks of many fatalities on the roads. Could he please explain as I am aware of very few !
The recent ones reported involved three people being killed by being run over by their own vehicles. Another one in Grouville resulted in two fatalities due to the driver being drunk and speeding. There was also one in St Martins where a driver drove his elderly Volkswagen into a tree, killing himself and his passenger. Then there was the one outside the Hospital, where an elderly driver, with poor eye sight ran over a pedestrian who could not be bothered to use the near by pedestrian crossing !
Listening to Danniel Wimberly, one would be led to believe that every other day, somone going about their daily business, through no fault of their own gets killed ! The last fatality in such circumstances involved a motorists’ car getting T-Boned by a speeding States of Jersey Police car some 5 years ago !
I don’t believe a strictly enforced speed limit of 20 mph would have saved any of the above mentioned person’s lives.
THer will always be the occasional fatality due to someone’s inattention to put the hand brake on their car, or in a moment of madness, drive while drunk!
Daniel Wimberly’s proposals are basically about milking the motorist for extra cash. Pure and simple.
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I think the Americans have got it right – a guy was stopped doing 220mph in a 60 zone in a Bugatti Veyron and was fined $500 the maximum permissable fine. If caught again it would be $750.
Now that’s a deterrant for someone who spent £1,000,000 on a car! that’s a million pounds for the illiterate amongst us
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I visit jersey on hoilday alot. I try to follow the speed liments when I am thier but half of the time I don’t know what the speed liment is this has happened on the green lanes alot. so why not leave the speed liment as is but put up more speed liment sings.
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glad to hear it. driving a modern car at 15mph is hard to say the least,if you have any incline to go up, squirt of gas and you are flying along at 20 glued to the speedo instead of looking at the road.
farmer trev,do you think the 6 residents speeding campained to get the speed limit in the first place?
any taxi drivers out there who would care to post thier average daily speed i did hear that it was 17mph.
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“I waiting with bated breath for the backlash from good old Mrs Rosemary Bead.”
“I was quite disappointed when I didn’t find a “Rosemary” comment…the lady is slipping.
Come on woman, don’t let them get away with this… ”
Come on guys, give her a chance. She probably takes a lot longer than you lot do to get home!
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15mph lanes are frequently peppered with horse manure as is this blog….wake up folks we have gargantuan problems here to surmount.without getting sidelined with this irrelevant stuff.you won’t see who has their hand in your pockets while focusing on trivial pursuits.
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I think they should erect more of those signs which show a happy face or sad face depending on what speed you’re doing…..they certainly encourage me to drive slower…NOT!
I would like to know what happened to the sign they put up in Sion though….it only lasted a few weeks so where has it gone and why???
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Can someone please give the Deputy a part time job for Summer. This would keep him occupied , stop him roaming the streets of St Mary and prevent him jumping out in front of cars .
It is obvious he is missing being spoken down to by the all knowing Ministers, so he has to think of things to do to waste his days before it’s back to the ‘Big House’.
Also, has anyone ever spotted a person OR even a dog walking a 15mph ‘Green lane’ …. I only ever see cars. Perhaps when I drive in the West that walker is striding out somewhere in Grouville ….. I’ll never know !!!!
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There is no need to lower the speed limits. The underpass is prime example of and area where the speed limit is wrong. Most people do 40 through it, not because they like breaking the law, but simply because it is safe to do so.
Warren J, What is the problem with white van man driving with out his seat belt? If he has a crash then surely its his life at risk. Cant see an issue there.
Heavy fines and people loosing their licences aren’t the way to go. Tell me honestly that you have never sped, you’ve never been late, in a mood or just felt like. For every one person that deserves it, your going to hit 5 that don’t.
As a tradesman I spend a lot of time of the roads, the driving standard is appalling over here. Anyone that say its good obviously doesn’t do many miles. Nearly everyday I have to slam the brakes on when coming up to junctions because someone things they can just pull out in front. Indicating is and optional extra and don’t get me started on common sense.
Until all of the above is sorted don’t look at changing the speed limits.
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Not a single comment addressed safety, not even the article. Most of the lanes in question are very narrow and are sunken so that there are many blind corners. A collision at 15 vs. 20mph will have 80% more impact energy and so result in higher injury rates and fatalities.
Do not allow the opportunity for spped cameras as the revenue fromfines will just go into the States coffers for even more grandiose and poorly planned civic projects.
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As a frequent driver on the Island, I would say that 20 mph is a more sensible limit for the Green lanes, as well as many of the urban streets, provided there is effective enforcement.
There is obviously similar syndrome of drivers in Jersey, as in Britain, who will dangerously tailgate you when you are driving at the speed limit, and will overtake whenever the is the slightest chance to do so, however dangerous.
Perhaps we could learn something from the French, where I have a vast improvement in their driving standards over the last ten to fifteen years, probable because of their robust penalties for those that commit serious traffic offences, such as car confiscation.
Fot instance, last year when driving from St Nazaire to Calais, a distance of 405 miles in continuous rain and gales, keeping to their bad weather limit of 110 kph, on the “Peages”, I was overtaken by Dutch, Belgian, German and British drivers, but never by the French.
I rest my case! So I trust the French judiciary impose an appropriately severe sentence on that driver who caused all that carnage in Rennes.
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Some funny posts up there. Point is, the roads in Jersey don’t really allow much scope for serious speeding anyway.
Try being overtaken by a couple of high powered BMWs racing each other at 130mph on the M25. I know a few Jersey people who won’t drive over here because it freaks them out so much.
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Come on Wimbo…we want more out of you than this tosh……
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Ben = Quote “Point is, the roads in Jersey don’t really allow much scope for serious speeding anyway”
I challenge you to spend time on Route Orange, especially later in the evening to see where serious speed can be achieved !!!
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Before any of this Nanny State stuff get’s going, I should, as someone who has driven all my life on Jersey lanes and roads without major incident(And that’s as I have said elsewhere more years than I care to remember)like Deputy Wimberley to produce the all Island accident statistics that support his campaign for yet more regulation and expense for all in this regard?
I suspect that we will find that nearly all fatal accidents on our Island roads have been caused by stupidity, heart attacks or drugs/drink driving, and more importantly that the numbers statistically have not greatly increased over the last ten years or even twenty? If they have it will only be in proportion to the numbers of vehicles on our roads.If the opposite is the case it will certainly have nothing to do with ridiculously low speed limits!
As for driving in the Island’s lanes, there is a technique for doing this safely at speeds up to 40mph that involves maintaining your vehicle, knowing the dimensions of your vehicle to the millimeter, knowing the topography of the lanes,knowing the technique known to coach and lorry drivers as to how to get two vehicles to pass even if there does not appear to be room,(Basically by swinging vehicles around each other as they pass)and finally if all else fails being able to reverse your vehicle up to two hundred yards, preferably using only your wing mirrors.
I should like to propose that anyone unable to perform the above should have a man with a red flag assigned to them to walk in front whenever they take to the roads, and that those of us who can drive properly be allowed by Deputy Wimberley and his supporters to continue to do so without ridiculous legislation imposing arbitrary speed limits and signs to distract our attention from where it should be, on the road.
I do not include the 40 mph Island wide limit which is wholly satisfactory and also do not include those limits imposed outside schools and at various well know accident black spots.
The red flag scheme however would provide jobs after all.
But seriously it is time that these concerns were put in perspective and that qualified drivers were given the respect the overall accident record will show they deserve when put against the number of car journeys undertaken daily.
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Darren [18] I think this is because most drivers have the intelligence to slow down when navigation a blind corner. Your comment illustrates the very real danger that when speed limits are set at artificially low levels drivers subconsciously set their right foot to the required speed and then switch off. Most accidents are caused through lack of concentration or inappropriate driving rather than speeding. As you point out two cars meeting at 15mph on a blind corner will result in an accident.
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I THINK IT’S SHOCKING THAT KEITH CAN DRINK COFFEE AND DO THE CROSSWORD WHILST DRIVING! I HOPE YOU AT LEAST HOLD THE CROSSWORD ON THE STEERING WHEEL WITH CLOTHES PEGS?
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This sounds like an improvement (if any attempt is made at enforcement!) on current joke system. We live on a tiny lane in Grouville, barely wide enough for 1 car, with everyone blatting along at 40 whilst wide main road past Ransoms with middle white lines has 30 limit!
We’re on a blind corner and majority appear to think leaning on horn approaching it is sensible driving to warn other cars. Great if you’re wheeling the pram along – try to push it up the 6 foot bank when you hear the horn as you have seconds before a near death experience.
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Victory, Victory, Victory!
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31 Duncan “I THINK IT’S SHOCKING THAT KEITH CAN DRINK COFFEE AND DO THE CROSSWORD WHILST DRIVING! I HOPE YOU AT LEAST HOLD THE CROSSWORD ON THE STEERING WHEEL WITH CLOTHES PEGS?”
No room mate, I have my laptop on the steering wheel, btw 4 across – cheese made backwards – any ideas?
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UK Student. Think yourself lucky! I drive a Nissan Z240 and the spedo starts at 20! Oh yeah, driving through a dreen lane is like dicing with death… too fast n’upsetting the rude people that seem to think that because it’s a green lane the traffic can wait until the road is wide enough to pass them naturally or too fast and waiting for the powers that be to land on me with the full weight of the law… it’s just not worth it, maybe I’ll become a cyclist and just get in everyones way!
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I was astonished to see Deputy Wimberley driving his van on the BBC Jersey television news the other night without wearing a seatbelt. Surely as a states representative he should be setting an example or does he think he is above the law. I hope the Connetable of St Mary will be having a quite word with him.
Keith (10) Can you explain how it is possible for a woman (I don’t see the relevance of gender) taking her kids to school to speed. I walk past school traffic every day and for the most part it is either stationary or traveling at less than walking pace.
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well said nick#29 this deputy should stick to looking after his parish as i believe he did not go into the states on an island wide mandate.
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the max speed allowed is 40 mph 30mph for LGV as the breaking distance is greater. so how about upping the speed for motorcycles to 50 mph because they can stop quicker.
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Hobgoblin 36 “Keith (10) Can you explain how it is possible for a woman (I don’t see the relevance of gender) taking her kids to school to speed. I walk past school traffic every day and for the most part it is either stationary or traveling at less than walking pace”
Simple, unless the backlog of traffic is from her house to the school then she will likely use a major road to get to school, the avenue is favourite with women taking kids to school overtaking me everyday. I assume the gender relevance is due to the male partner having a job and not having the stressful task of taking the kids to school and picking them up ( some 6 hours later )
The key difference ( in my opinion ) is that men do speed but tend to be awake when doing so – ie driving is the most important thing that they are doing at that time ( not lippy, menu planning, deciding how to spend the intervening 6 hours before collecting kids )
Or would you have me believe that women never speed?
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Mick, you make a reasonable point but speed limits that are consistent across vehicle type are safer, not to mention less confusing.
Why doesn’t Jersey target proper speed signage first? One sign is actually directly above a hedge on the left and at the very point that a driver will be looking to the right aware that there is a junction there! It’s far from the only one.
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I don’t know Deputy Wimberley but from his performance so far we need more people to vote at election time! How much will it cost to replace the signs on all the green lanes? Just let the police release a press quote that they are to target drivers on green lanes and fine rather than warn drivers who do more than 20 on green lanes and the job is done. Repeat every month and actually fine a few if necessary.
The limits on the island are in my opinion good but the people who weave in and out of traffic doing 60mph plus on Victoria Avenue going to “Waves” cafe need Police attention. Just one point of reflection and this is not due I’m sure to the lack of car thefts on the island – car insurance on Jersey is a fraction of the UK price and due I’m sure is a reflection on how safe Jersey roads actually are at present. Now can we please have someone with good sense standing against Deputy Wimberley at the next election.
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Speeding is an antisocial act on a par with public drunkenness. The victims in the main are not injured but are intimidated enough to take defensive actions. Thus parents shepherd their children to and from school, and walkers and cyclists avoid the lanes. Like much antisocial behaviour the perpetrators consider they are blameless and bleittle the complainants.
People speed in cars because they get away with it. Every day boats enter and leave the harbours sticking to the strict speed limits aware of the severe and likely sanctions that await them should thay transgress. There is no campaign agaisnt the nanny harbour state, or claims that sailors handle their boats better at speed, nor suggestions that bobbing up and down in somebody’s excessive wake is harmless. Consideration for others makes for social behaviour.
A couple of years ago the Chief Constable stated that he wanted to run a campaign agaisnt speeding but was blocked by the Magistrates office who refused to provide the extra court time necessary to support the campaign. Perhaps that should be revisited.
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I would be interested to know if it is possible to be prosecuted for breaking the speed limit whilst running? I have regularly sprinted down Green Lanes at 20mph and am not sure if I have broken any law. Does anyone know the legal position?
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Maybe Rosemary Bead is right after all. Reduce the Island wide speed limit to a safe 20 mph so it does not matter if you hit something or somebody as you won’t cause much damage or harm. We can then scrap the seat belt law as these are do longer needed, legalise the use of mobile phones, computers televisions etc whilst driving as very little attention will be required for the latter. Maybe the new 20 mph electric cars will come equipped with coffee maker, book holder and steering wheel mounted keyboard so we can surf the net and make silly comments on this site whilst our cars are cruising at a safe 20 mph. Big rubber bumpers may be in order in case a tree jumps out as happens at such speeds.
The rules will also have to change to place the onus on pedestrians and cyclists to get out of the way of a slow moving vehicles, with liability for any accident being presumed on the former.
Or maybe common sense will prevail and a few additional and targeted police checks setup to remove the few antisocial drivers who being safely strapped into their ultra safe cars have no regard for the safety of others .
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Dec, in fairness to the majority of people who drive I’ve yet to meet one who has an issue with sensible speed limits.
Most human beings can safely, and do safely, self-regulate their driving speed to the surrounding area and road conditions. The AA and RAC will happily state this.
The minority are not ‘speeders’ only they are DANGEROUS drivers period and lowering speed limits will not stop THESE people, not ever. They will continue to cause fatalities.
So, why not take some ACTUAL preventative action. If someone causes an accident on this island that is purely their fault (no unforeseen contributory factors) then take their licence off them permanently. A driving licence is a privilege NOT a right. On this island such people have to be complete idiots, it cannot be easy to have an accident here unless you set out to do it!
Also, today I stood and waited for the green man, despite the quiet road, because there were two young mums with toddlers and babies next to me. However, one of them ran across the road while cars were pulling away from the previous set of lights, then the other pushed her pram out right in front of a car while ushering an older child to run… two cars did emergency stops and the woman just had time to back up onto the central crossing area, she then shouted at the older child for running off as if she had only run out with the pram to go after her! This was utter lies, she pushed her pram right in front of a car and the older child just followed her. So today a baby is unbelievably lucky to be alive despite the best efforts of its mother to neglect her duties!
If we are going to target drivers we must also target people like this. Heavy fines and/or other punishments for when pedestrians cause vehicular accidents. Accidents will drop drastically.
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Where is the victory Rose?
Wimbo is asking for the limit to be INCREASED from 15 mph to 20 mph.
Besides, nothing has been decided as yet!
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BS Deluxe (46)
I think the Rosemary Bead post is an Imposter!
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Sanity re. your first paragraph – why not? You can clearly think outside fo the box so why not action it as well or is that too much hard work and effort?
BS Deluxe, yes some lanes will be increased from 15 to 20mph, but a lot more 30mph will be reduced down to 20mph, my campaign is working – hence the ‘V’ for Victory, I will enjoy my country cake tonight, maybe a little whisky as well.
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When I lived in Jersey, my home was on a Green Lane and I found that 15 m.p.h. was about the right speed. I now live in a very rural part of the U.K. and the unclassified roads and ‘C’ roads near my home are about the same width as a Green Lane. Here though, the speed limit is 60 m.p.h.! Madness…..15 to 20 m.p.h. would be just fine.
Strangely on a wide ‘A’ road close to a school, the speed limit is 20 m.p.h. – even in the Summer holidays.
I think Leah Holmes is right, many of the problems are to with dangerous drivers. People who are compliant stick to speed limits, or near enough to those limits – dangerous drivers don’t give a damn.
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#42 could you please elaborate how speeding is an anticocial act. Could you please define ‘Speeding’ Is it exceeding a stated maximum speedlimit, regardless of if it is appropriate or not, or is it driving at an excessive speed that causes harm and distress to other road users ? I kinda think the latter. And as for comparisons with drunkeness, the mind boggles.
Last night, I met up with a couple of mates in town. Because I think that St Helier after dark is dangerous, mindful of the recent attacks, I took the view that I would rather drive, and stay on soft drinks, rather than getting beaten up on the way to the Taxi Rank !
At the end of the evening, because I was sober, I gave my mates a lift home. We all made it home in one piece. However, I have a feeling that I may have exceeded the 30mph limit at some point on the way home. Did I crash ? No ! Was anyone offended ? No. So what is the problem ?
My main concern when going out is being attacked in town by the islands low life. By driving sensibly, I am assured of protection from street crime, and I get home in one piece.
At the end of the day, I would rather run the risk of my car being damaged in a road accident, than geting beaten up by the low life of this island. My car is comprehensivley insured, and if it gets damaged, my insurers pick up the tab. My face, however, could get permanently scarred in a street fight, and the low life basically get away with it !
And by driving, I give the police easy pickings to earn some revenue.
However, in cases where accidents are caused by reckless driving, excessive speed, and pure stupidity, four figure fines and significant driving bans please.
PS I was in the wife’s car last night, so please send the ticket for her attention !
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1 and 4 Mr. Veerance and Mr. Clement
There is an issue with exactly how limits are enforced. The margin where there is no actual punishment, and the principle that the more you exceed the limit the more you have to cough up, both these ideas could be included in the law.
2 The other half
One person has phoned me on a similar tack. It will be interesting to see how this develops. Personally I now think that an enforceable 20 is better than a widely ignored 15. In practise, most of us slow at blind corners or when passing pedestrians etc. to 10 or less, I have noticed myself doing this.
6 Warren
This is being looked at – and action taken!
7&8 Angela and Annie
Not big brother – just making people’s lives better. Enforcement has to be in well-publicised “blitzes” to raise awareness. Yes the police have other things to do, but the accident record (2008 36 serious injuries, 400+ minor in juries) has to be reduced, and limits is part of the package.
11 Mr. Le Flem
Agree about the need for consistency and therefore fewer signs and an easier to remember system. By frontages, I meant continuous frontages. People living in isolated houses on main roads will (still) have the 40 limit outside their home and therefore will have to take serious measures to protect their children/animals from harm.
15 Warren
Not about milking the motorist for cash. Did not cross my mind, and I mean that. What it is about is safety and feeling safe, consistency, health effects, economic effects and signage. I said that last year there were 36 serious injuries and fatalities on Jersey’s roads (and 400+ minor injury accidents). Those are official figures and I used their categories. Speed is likely to be a factor. There should be research into the accidents in Jersey to establish causes. But the issue of quality of life and how people feel about the traffic going past their shoulders is sufficient reason for action.
22 Mr. Hibbs
Should walk around a bit more – then he would meet other walkers. On the “top road” in St. Mary, there is a steady stream of cyclists and walkers. And see #42
23 Someone
Agree that much driving here is thoughtless, and is saved from having severe consequences by the low speeds! People not indicating when they are going to leave roundabouts is my particular bug-bear, really dangerous for pedestrians.
27 Truthseeker
Incinerator Euro disaster coming up next. And the Annual Business Plan and the Constables in the States. But speed limits and enforcement are a big issue
32 Jonno
Precisely.
37 Mick
Speed limits and traffic are the number one local issue for St. Mary parishioners. That is why I have taken it up. BTW all deputies concern themselves with the whole island as well as their constituents. How can you separate the two?
41 Common sense
Part of the reason for moving to a 20 on all narrow lanes is that a lot of the signs could be disappeared. I take the point re insurance, but the issue of quality of life and how people feel about the traffic going past their shoulders cannot be set aside.
42 Dec
Thanks!! It is the invisible effects of too much traffic, and speeding traffic that are so often ignored and which I wanted to highlight.
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Ref:-51 What about wearing seatbelts too or are you immune from this law?
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As i had no say in you getting in the states you should not have any say in what goes on in any parish but your own ok
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Mick 53, that’s rather harsh.
It is the duty of all States memebers to make life more wretched for all of the parishes and not just the ones in their elected district.
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I’m sorry but Deputy Wimberley fails in his posting (51)to quantify exactly how many of the 36 fatalities and serious injuries he claims were caused by car accidents last year were one or the other?
How many were fatal? And if they were, how many were actually caused by speeding as opposed to stupidity by un-licenced drivers,drink/drugs or as is suspected in the recent sad case, heart attacks?
Similarly those accidents that resulted in serious injury? To give any credence to his argument for more anti motoring legislation the statistics need to be exact and meaningful, not spun to suit the argument!
I suspect that when analysed as suggested above very few fatalities were caused by speed alone as a factor, and the same is probably true with the serious injury cases!
Setting aside the argument that there is such a thing as a “Genuine Accident” caused by the unfortunate coming together of a number of unforseen circumstances, I still venture to suggest that when seen as a ratio to the number of vehicle journeys undertaken daily on the Island these serious accident numbers reflect very favourably on the ability of the majority of licensed trained drivers to regulate their own speed and control their own vehicle without “Busy body interference” and “Nannying” from the likes of Mrs Rosemary Bead and Deputy Wimberley!
I daresay that ultimately these people will get their way and we will all end up travelling in satellite controlled computerized vehicles until the day there’s a computer “Glitch” and then watch out!We have already seen some of the effects of that sort of thing with satnav in vehicles!
Just for the record whilst I do appreciate it is lovely to walk down country lanes with children on their bikes etc. the reason those lanes are tarmacked and kept up is because it is necessary for people to transport themselves and goods etc. about. Even in the much lauded “olden days” when there were less people but more pedestrians, they had to keep an eye out for the occasional horse drawn vehicle travelling fast!
There is a need for pedestrians to act responsibly and stay alert! Not always the case in town these days where they get far too used to pedestrian precincts and carry on the same when they reach a road!
And Rosemary I should go easy on the whiskey or you may run foul of my campaign to breathalise pedestrians!In the majority of accidents where pedestrians are involved the Law nearly always comes down against the driver, primarily because it is usually the driver who has third party insurance!
I recall once being actually nearly attacked by a passer bye in the UK because a LandRover Discovery I had ordered arrived with a full Bull bar on the front! “What would happen if you hit an old lady with that on the front” she yelled at me! Apart from pointing out that the vehicle weighed at least two tons and the effect would be much the same either way if I was stupid enough to drive at an old lady, I eventually lost my temper and told this ludicrous twit that at least with the bull bar the old dear would have something to cling on to that would stop her going under the vehicle until I could stop!That actually became a serious campaign!
Oh I did use the bull bar on the A3 on two occasions, once to help the police to coral some horses they were chasing down the dual carriageway, and once to drive a real live bull back into his field!The police in their little Panda car were very grateful on both occasions!
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#55 brilliant!
We need to stop assuming it is always the driver’s fault, but have harsher penalties when it is! And harsher penalties for lack of concentration, skipping lights (how ‘held up’ can you really be in Jersey?), tailgating, lane weaving, ‘cutting up’ other motorists…
Also, there should be large signs at the airport and the ferry terminal stating how Jersey’s roads are different to other countries (residents actually allow pedestrians across at zebra crossing etc), speed limit, filter in turn etc and a leaflet people can pick up if they want.
For speed limits, what about ‘changing’ speed limits. Electronic ones that can be set according to road conditions, weather etc and, more importantly, ones that let St Peter be 20mph during the day but 30-40mph at night?
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Deputy Wimberley needs to substantiate his claims that the islands roads are dangerous, rather than SPIN SPIN SPIN.
Vast improvements have been made over the years, as I have mentioned earlier, but this seems irrelevant to Deputy Wimberley who wishes to burden the motorist further. Where are the dangers ? I dont see them.
If you want to see danger, go to Guernsey with its narrow roads, and poor sight lines at junctions. Last time I was over there, everytime I went out in the hire car, there was an accident being cleared up, and bent cars being towed away.
The recent fatal accident over there involving a motorcyclist at a filter in turn junction, similar to our Beaumont Filter junction. One dead motorcyclist, and three very bent cars, including a Volvo Estate at a junction that we would approach in Jersey at less than 10 MPH
Deputy Wimberley our roads are very safe. Please come up with the credible evidence to prove they are not, or simply shut up !!!!!
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Warren 57
Spin is for deceiving people. I hope I don’t do that. If Warren wants credible evidence, here it is. There were 36 serious injury/fatal accidents in 2008 and over 400 minor injury accidents. I thought I had written that before, and indeed I had, in my post 51 above, in reply to Warren! Is this a dialogue or am I talking to myself? Do you think this is an acceptable level of maiming?
The roads clearly are dangerous. And BTW, the trend over the last 4 years (stats from TTS) is up, 2007 being the exception, (wonder why?)
Warren is however right, along with others like Nick 55, to query whether the adjustment of speed limits and the lowering of them in all urban areas and village centres would reduce accidents. If I were to rewrite my submission I would add a plea for proper analysis of accidents in Jersey and their causes. But then the review group would not finish by end September which is their intention.
But the main reason for the limits is actually the benefits for non-drivers. DEC 42 is absolutely right: “The victims in the main are not injured but are intimidated enough to take defensive actions. Thus parents shepherd their children to and from school, and walkers and cyclists avoid the lanes. Like much antisocial behaviour the perpetrators consider they are blameless and belittle the complainants.”
I want to improve the well-being of those who live in St. Mary. Surely they have as much right to quality of life as they walk to the playgroup with their child as the driver just “passing through”. In trying to see all sides of the situation. I am redressing the balance.
Nick 55 writes that pedestrians get “get far too used to pedestrian precincts” Exactly!! Whyever should we not walk freely and without fear? Sounds good to me.
Nick 55
“I still venture to suggest that when seen as a ratio to the number of vehicle journeys undertaken daily on the Island these serious accident numbers reflect very favourably . . . .”
I am not sure about this. Is the true basis of comparison a per mile basis? Or a per trip basis? Either way, I am not at all sure that Jersey is so lily white in this respect.
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Speed limits need to be enforced and in the U.K. they rely on static speed cameras and camera vans operated by non police staff.
There is a camera safety partnership run by local authorities in conjunction with the police. Offenders are given fixed penalty notices and points are put on their licence. Don’t forget that you are also supposed to notify your insurer which means your insurance will also cost more.
Whether we like it or not, there is a lot of empirical evidence that shows that speed is a major contributory factor in causing road traffic collisions and more needs to be done to reduce the number of accidents on the roads in Jersey.
There can’t be many contributors on this site who don’t speed – I am as guilty as anyone. I assure you however that the potential of a camera van being around the corner or knowing where static cameras are located makes you slow down.
With all the violent behaviour reported in the local media, it seems obvious that the local police can not deal with everything. They shouldn’t have to work harder, but just work smarter. That possibly means relinquishing some of their roles – such as some elements of speeding enforcement.
Why do you need a police officer to operate a camera van that films the offence? All the police need to do then, is serve a notice on the registered keeper to identify the driver and then report him / her for the offence disclosed.
This will help release officers to combat the reported increase in violence on the streets. It will also enable police cars to patrol around the Island to detect other forms of anti-social driving – like jumping red lights, crossing continuous white lines, driving over pedestrian crossings when people are crossing etc.
The States need to look at the idea of fixed penalty notices for speeding, to help reduce the amount of paperwork that police officers have to complete – again giving the potential to release officers to patrol the streets and do what the public want then to do.
Getting back to Deputy Wimberley’s suggestion –I do feel that increasing the limit on the green lanes to 20 m.p.h. wouldn’t be a problem. In any case people should drive to the prevailing conditions on the road. If there are pedestrians, horse riders or cyclists or whatever, they must slow down for reasons of road safety.
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Deputy Wimberley was seen driving on Channel Report crossing his hands on the steering wheel, amongst other things that would have caused him to fail a retest!
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Daniel Wimberley
Perhaps speed limits are not the actual issue here. Roads are only dangerous if the driver is.
A lot of accidents are either caused by younger people being wreckless or older people with medical/vision difficulties.
Perhaps there should be a restriction on how old the drivers should be on the road….maximum and minimum.
And whilst your at it maybe a compulsory medical for all drivers every couple of years or so to prove they are safe.
Failing those suggestions it may be a good idea to focus on the shoddy bus service. If you improved this then I’m sure more and more people would prefer to use it rather than pay exorbitant fuel and parking costs to get to work everyday.
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My simple quetion of Deputy Wimberley is to provide some background inforation to the official figures upon which he bases his proposals for lower speed limits. (Bit like asking your Trustees or Lawyer for an itemised bill !) Of the 36 fatal/serious accidents that occured in 2008, it should be relatively simple to give a breakdown of these figures into four groups as follows :-
How many are attributable to collisons of two or more vehicles where the respective drivers missinterpereted the others intentions where only the vehicle occupants sufffered injury?
How many occured as a result of a single vehicle being involved, such as driving into a wall through the drivers poor driving, again with just the vehicle occupants suffering injury?
How many people were injured or killed by being run over by their own vehicle, which they had parked without securing the hand brake and leaving in gear or park?
How many unconected persons (such as pedestrians, cyclists, horse riders etc) were injured as a result of a drivers actions ?
I believe that Deputy Wimberley’s intentions are that injuries/deaths caused by the fourth scenario are relevant.
Don’t get me wrong, I am all for improving driving standards, and for motorists to drive at a speed appropriate for the conditions, and thouse who are unable to show the necessary standards are fined / banned / forced to undergo further training etc. However, the proposals to reduce speed limits, which are then strictly enforced with a result that careful motorists find themselves on the wrong side of the law is not the way to imporve road safety. As has happend in the UK with camera enforcement, which is more to do with raising revenue than improving road safety, all this will do is destroy relationships between the law abiding members of society and the Police. (It is noted that the number of Police traffic patrols in the UK has reduced following the introduction of speed cameras, which has resulted in an increase in poor driving, uninsured motorists, drink drivers etc)
In responding to #55, Deputy Wimberley thinks it is fine for people to walk without fear ! Sorry, but there is a document called the Highway Code which encompasses ALL road users, and this includes motorists, cyclists, pedistrians, and horse riders, and we all have a duty to look out for one another. I speak as somone who walks, cycles, drives and also holds a motorcycle licence ( I don’t do horses !) No matter what form of transport that I am using, and that includes my own two legs, I strive to look where I am going, and ascertain the likely actions of others.
Finally, I was sorry to read about the 21 year old who drove his motorcycle into a wall in St Peters Valley, breaking both ankles. I presume that his accident will fall into the Serious Injury category, and while I dont know the facts of the accident, it is fair to say that he is not the first, and won’t be the last young lad to crash his bike. But his accident gets duly recorded amongst the stastistics.
Deputy Wimberley, please proivide comprehensive details to back up your proposals, which if accepted, could have far reaching implications on law enforcement and the future relationship between the public and police.
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ZBD, since the majority of dangerous drivers also speed (and often excessively), I can accept that will most likely be true. I would still like to see the cause of each accident being assessed properly, current bias is against the driver.
I don’t doubt that everyone genuinely wants to cut deaths on the road but that what we each see suggests to us the problems lie in different areas. I’ll reiterate that a scary number of near misses (and presumably, therefore, actual hits) are down to pedestrians, and not just drunk ones. I am desperate to see this section of society educated properly on how easily their carelessness could ruin the life of someone who was simply driving from A to B with their full attention on the road.
Like BS Deluxe, I am all for regular testing (every 5 years seems fair) with automatic medical assessment once drivers reach 60. A tougher driving test with skid control elements would not go amiss either (especially in Jersey).
I had to read through the DVLA’s guidance on medical conditions and driving allowances and I was stunned into silence (yes, ME
) as to what conditions people are allowed to drive with. I’ve got a limited licence in the UK. If I had ignored my symptoms (and many people do ignore them) I would be driving about quite the thing. Due to my knowledge of what the symptoms could mean I was thoroughly tested. Now, with successful treatment I am as or more safe behind the wheel (medically speaking) than any assumedly healthy person could possibly be, but my licence gets limited.
This treatment of drivers just discourages others from being honest with the relevant authorities and it can even stop people (who drive for a living) seeking medical help. It’s counterproductive.
Society will do well to stop the ‘driver attacks’ and start considering all aspects of road safety. I’m not keen on jaywalking laws but I would like to see the law coming down hard on pedestrians whose neglect would cause an accident were it not for some brilliant observation from nearby drivers. Especially when it is the good old ‘pushing the pram out into oncoming traffic’ situation!
Most of all we need to change the attitude that a driving licence is a right. There needs to be a limit on the number of times you can sit your test (with alternative methods for people who become extremely anxious when being tested). And I would prefer a system whereby everyone has to clock up a minimum number of hours driving experience over a full year before being able to sit their test. Crash courses (excuse the pun) are not a good idea.
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I note that Deputy Wimberley has taken issue with a few of the points I made in my previous posting, and also in response to Warren J and others, who like me had the reaction that the statistics on which the Deputy was basing his position were flawed in as much as they do not identify how many of the various categories of accident were directly caused by speeding?
As it is the serious accident/fatal accident category that is presumably most concerning, then I think what we were asking the Deputy was how many (Of the 36 accidents that are apparently in this category in 2008)were caused by excessive speeding by the driver, as opposed to other factors?
I believe I mentioned a recent sad case where the elderly driver is suspected to have had a sudden heart attack and died at the wheel (And before anyone starts on elderly drivers this could happen to a good driver of any age at anytime e.g. I was once met head on by a free wheeling Land Rover on the Petworth/Midhurst road in the UK. Fortunately I was driving a Saab with large rubber bumpers and was able to stop the vehicle fairly easily.Sadly dead behind the wheel was a young farmer,who must have literally just had time to pull the gear lever to neutral and thankfully was on a straight,flat bit of road, early when not many people were about)
Warren J mentions a motorcyclist who drove into a wall in St Peter’s valley, an accident not involving anyone else but making him a statistic, and which due to the age of the rider would automatically be assumed to be speeding by some, but could perhaps be attributed to any number of causes (Mud or oil on the road? A pothole or badly installed drain-cover? Tarmac melting in hot weather? a mechanical problem? reactive swerving to avoid a pedestrian or animal on the road? Ill judged legal speed in poor weather? Excessive, illegal speed?A blocked road drain causing retention of surface water on the road? Ice, black and white?Frost? Autumn leaves?) My point Deputy is that only one of the thirteen odd causes I have given for that one accident is illegal speeding!
I actually know nothing about that accident at all,and I hope the young person concerned has made a good recovery, and now has more experience as a motorbike rider that will help in the future.
Deputy Wimberley also makes the point that the published statistics do not serve his purpose! I would respectfully suggest therefore that before campaigning anymore on this issue and costing both the public and the motorist more unnecessary expense,worry and possible litigation, he takes issue with the department responsible for compiling these statistics to make them more relevant!
As for rubbishing my point about the 36 serious and or fatal accidents in 2008 reflecting well on motorists in general when compared to the number of road trips made daily in the Island(You will note I have not highlighted the fact that not all those 36 accidents were caused by excessive speeding!),to introduce some sort of arbitrary mileage issue is I would suggest an example of muddled thinking by the Deputy, as it is quite common for people to have serious and often fatal accidents in their own driveway! I recall reading just the other day about a UK man who sadly and unintentionally ran over his elderly wife in such circumstances.Mileage therefore has nothing to do with my statement but plenty to do with distorting the official fatal “Road accident” statistics!
As for pedestrians walking “Freely”, well yes I’m all for that (It would be so depressing if they were all in chains!) No seriously, I would extend this to all animals as well, but not in the middle of the main St Mary’s road without paying attention to passing traffic for whose use is after all why the road is there in the first place!
As farmers carry insurance for their animals, so I believe all pedestrians should have similar third party cover, which would stop this business of the driver in an accident being made the scapegoat simply because his insurance company is the only party able to pay for the pedestrian’s medical treatment and rehabilitation.
As far as country lanes are concerned, there is a case surely Deputy for persuading some farmers with fields alongside certain notoriously narrow lanes or accident black-spots, to allow a verge down the edge of their field for pedestrian use only (Such a facility granted on the basis that it is only access to the edge of the field for through passage by pedestrians and does not constitute any assumption of 3rd party liability by the landowner or the establishment of any rights of way or access entitlement)? Money for small signs indicating the existence of such pedestrian routing could be found from the speed sign budget!There’s your campaign Deputy! Farmers could be paid a small realistic annual fee for the upkeep of such a facility to make it worth their while and attractive to participate.Whether you include pedal cyclists in the scheme would be left to be decided on a location basis.
As for the “Without fear” statement, I would venture to suggest to the Deputy if that is to be a priority factor for spending Public monies and harassing legitimate road users then we are really on the road to bankruptsy! What about Agoraphobics,Claustrophobics,Hysterics,Hypochondriacs,and all the other “ics”, “Phobes” and syndrome sufferers who make up the pedestrian population? surely for all these people to progress through life “Without fear” (And I would add “Danger”Deputy just for good measure) the only answer is mass sedation in a nuclear bunker! Oh dear what do we do with the Claustrophobics?
Yours is a hard job Deputy and you deserve praise for your concern here, but it is a matter of focus.Don’t make your job more difficult by concentrating on the impractical, try and focus on steps that would really produce a result such as the one suggested above re farmers and their fields.After all how safe would we all be if as paying passengers boarding a commercial aircraft we insisted on wresting the controls from the pilot?Or on The Ferry, would we round Corbiere safely if the helmsman was grappling with passengers for control of the helm?
As we trust these trained professionals so should the pedestrian trust the “Trained” legitimate driver! I rest my case.
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Leah # 63. I think having a jay walking offence would be a good idea, as this would give the police a way of dealing with the drunken clowns who deliberately walk in front of traffic, when they leave the pubs and nightclubs at the end of their night out.
I suppose there is the offence of being drunk and disorderly, or obstructing the highway, but something specific for jay walking would be good – we shouldn’t just balme the motorists.
The same applies to Green Lanes; whilst they are designed for cyclists, pedestrians and horse riders, they must also use the road responsibly.
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Stop messing about with the speed limits. For crying out loud, raising the limit from 15 to 20 will only see cars doing at least 30 in a green lane thinking it’s OK as it’s “only just a bit over the speed limit”.
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