Passport to confusion
Monday 10th August 2009, 2:59PM BST.
From M Buckley.
I’M a Jersey woman and would like to know why Jersey people have to have British on their passport, yet if we try to get an insurance off the internet at a cheaper price, we can’t. Why? Because we are in Jersey.
It’s the same as things sold from newspapers and books which read ‘excluding the Channel Islands’.
If we have British on our passport, why can’t we have the same privileges as the people who are British?
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If you want the full “British” privileges then you should move to the UK and pay the full rate of tax there.
Although many items cost more here, especially since GST was introduced, our rate of income tax is still less and there are some other advantages.
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If Jersey individuals were willing to pay the £2k plus a family it costs UK households to be part of the EU, I’m sure this discrepancy would be quickly resolved.
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There’s always a boat – and several planes, too – in the morning.
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M Buckley, it’s not often reported but many British islands (like my home island) incur extra charges for deliveries and some companies simply will not deliver to them at all.
Anyway, if you were ‘fully British’ you’d be forced to be part of the EU, give me the hassles and extra charges stated in your letter anyday!
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Good letter there! and ain,t you just fed up with people saying there is always a boat/plane in the morning.. we are local dudes as well you know!!
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This is a gritty issue which needs investigating, M Buckley. There is a problem with differing legal systems (Insurance and banking)and also with certain service industries here in the Island which would be undermined by full competition via the internet.
The main problem is the size of the potential market here.For many mainland UK and International companies it just is not worth their while in turnover terms to adapt their systems (Mainly computer) to cater for our unique local laws and ways of doing things which differ from those in the UK and mainland Europe.
An example of this is in the personal loan market where you will find exclusion again, and the mortgage market if you are seeking to purchase a UK property on a mortgage whilst resident here.These latter markets have been severely cut back since money laundering regulations have come into force, and there is some argument that the rules imposed have become too restrictive here, unfortunately the local demand for these services is not sufficient to persuade mainland based loan companies and banks to go through the expense of complying with the new legislation, a factor which detractors of these Islands, who view us all as tax evading multi millionaires, positively revel in!(Hence some of the posted comments above)
The result is little competition in the Insurance and personal lending side of financial services.Even less with the merger of locally based loan companies and banks!
It is a case illustrated by the new approach to the “Non-domiciled” concession historically granted by the UK Inland Revenue.This concession was originally introduced to ease repatriation of individuals who worked ex UK for extended periods or those who immigrated to the UK who faced having to deal with increased costs and capital expenditure on for example houses.The concession however has become a key tax avoidance loophole for the extremely wealthy immigrant, which was (And still is) a huge advantage for the UK economy in attracting foreign inward investment.
Sadly however people who misunderstand the advantage to the UK economy of attracting wealthy foreign nationals to invest, believe that allowing these individuals concessions is loosing tax revenue for the UK! They quite forget that all these extremely wealthy people have to do is invest and live elsewhere!
The result is that the current UK Government as part of the lashing about seeking a scapegoat to blame for the current economic downturn has introduced a £30,000 payment to be paid to acquire “Non domicile” status, making this “at a stroke” a concession solely for the wealthy, when it was originally introduced to help those at the opposite end of the financial spectrum, who now get no concessions at all!
The effect on the UK economy of this ill thought through change will be potentially catastrophic.Firstly wealthy foreign nationals will now see that the UK Government can and will change their tax status overnight regardless of any prior compliance,and therefore go elsewhere, and the large number of repatriating expatriates at the opposite end of the scale, who are large investors in the UK housing market, will also seek pastures new.
How that helps the UK economy recover from a recession when the housing market and foreign investment in manufacturing are of major importance I am at a loss to explain?
Meanwhile back in Jersey we tread a fine line between loosing all local businesses to online competition, only to be ignored as an irrelevant market by those online businesses when that happens!A real life Catch 22 situation!
And to the Detractors, I think that is called a Pyrrhic victory, which you will regret if as UK tax payers you find yourself paying to support in full the inhabitants of your formerly self financing Crown Dependency!
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to islander/rob roy/magnolia man/leah holmes
if you read this article correctly m buckley is just asking why on the jersey passport it is stated we are british when obviously we are not as we are not entitled to british privileges ,so please read carefully before you make rash judgements on people
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Wayno: I am sorry but we are “British” as part of “Great Britain” and as such have full “British privileges” one of which is HM Government’s protection (Such as it is these days)when travelling in foreign countries(Presumably now classified as those outside the EEC).
What we are not, is a full part of the “United Kingdom”, as we are not a “Nation State” in our own right but a Crown Possession with ancient privileges granted before even Parliament was establish at Westminster in it’s present or indeed any form! And well before the “Union of Crowns”now so threatened by “Devolution”.
We are if you like an accident of history which is unique because of our long history of association with the UK countries.
It is our longevity that is why we are different from other more recently established offshore Crown Dependencies.We have been able to establish a financial independence over a much longer period than our rivals, and our geographic location is still very important unlike some of the more remote “Dependencies”.
It is often asked why the UK does not adopt the same attitude to it’s offshore areas as France has with theirs?
The answer is one of “Cost”
Our status here in the Island puts our well being very much in our own hands as opposed to having to be underpinned by the UK taxpayer in the form of grants and handouts.
It always amazes me that the very people who rabbit on about how shocking the wealth in this Island is (All that lost tax revenue) are in the main the same UK tax payers who, if we were not self supporting,would be responsible for supporting us as jobless dependents as is the case in say the Isle of Wight!
“Crown Dependencies”,as they are so fond of labeling us: “You can’t have it both ways”.
Well no, “They” can’t!
As for our status and relationship with the UK, it is only since EEC direct involvement in UK Government domestic matters that this relationship has suddenly been focused on and had to be written down on “Tablets of stone”.
Prior to that there was room to interpret the relationship on a problem by problem basis.
Your are therefore seeing the weakness of a written “Constitution”, a feature of “Republicanism” (Government by lawyer) and the reason why for example the USA cannot bring in an all State encompassing gun control law.
The beauty of the UK system of Government was flexibility, with the administrative machinery in place to treat every problem as individual and relative to it’s time and the values prevailing at that time.Updating only occurred where issues needed updating or re-consideration.
I suppose what I’m saying is that what we are seeing is Federalism by the “Back door”, put in place slowly and quietly by an ever multiplying army of unelected beaureaucrats.
When full”Devolution” takes place, the UK will be the thing of the past, as will the power of Parliament at Westminster and that of the new ones in Scotland/Wales and N.Ireland.
In the interim we are all being confused and unsettled by clashing rules which makes everyone dissatisfied and calling for “Change”.
Just what the back door Federalists want?
And “Crown Possessions”? Off with their heads!
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Wayno, it’s a letter not an article, I DID read it and I made a comment that stated that even when ‘fully British’ and living on what is part of Britain you still get ripped off sometimes…
No judgement was passed on the writer, just pointing out that Britain can even treat the fully British poorly so what is to be expected for Jersey.
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As a British born person (SW England), I filled out the “Britsh” renewel passport form & took it to the passport office & paid my £80. Expecting it to take 2-3 weeks (Newport,Wales in the nearest office) I was shocked & pleasantly surprised when 48 hrs later it arrived in my letterbox…..
However, it was a JERSEY passport !!!
I’ve only lived here for 3.5 yrs !!
Does anyone know if i’m now “a quali” & can I now raised £500,00 to buy a “first time buyer” house ??!?!?
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@8 Nick
How can we be part of Great Britain and not be in the UK when the UK’s offical name is The United Kingdom of Geat Britain and Northern Ireland.
Ergo, to be part of Great Britain ensues that you are part of the UK.
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Jersey is neither in the UK or Great Britain.
Great Britain is the geographical name for the island which is comprised of England, Wales and Scotland. The largest of the British Isles.
The name is commonly misused to mean the British sphere of influence.
According to what is left of the gold that hasn’t rubbed off my Jersey passport, Jersey is a British Island.
To, Get real Jersey!!
You do not need to live in Jersey to have a Jersey passport. Anyone qualified to hold a British passport can apply to renew it in Jersey
and will get a Jersey one.
Presumably if a Jersey one runs out and is renewed in England you will get one with a standard British format.
The Jersey passport has “European Union” printed on it, which I dislike. However, it rubs off fairly easily. Unfortunately the “Bailiwick of Jersey” rubs off as well if some
check in clerk sticks your baggage receipt on the passport – as they do.
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Flymo: You will note I said in my previous posting that we are: “Not a full part of the United Kingdom ” as we are not a “Nation State” in our own right.
We are however a “Crown Dependency”, I prefer the term “Crown Possession” that has been granted the right to self government with regard to internal affairs, primarily out of convenience originally due to our lack of importance and the cost of funding the Channel Islands when they were so exposed to invasion by what was throughout history a primary enemy State located a lot closer than mainland UK.
As a Crown Dependency (Possession) however, we do enjoy a special relationship with the UK and with the EEC (As a result) that is different to being totally excluded!
This is unfortunately a status that has been wholly misunderstood or rather left as a “Grey area” when it comes to setting down on “tablets of stone” precisely how it works!It is thus down to “Current interpretation” to decide how we are effected and the UK Government system has the Privy Council to allow for that flexibility. Unfortunately the bureaucrats in Brussels find such an arbitrary arrangement very frustrating and annoying,, as do the various UK based detractors of the Island’s self governing status.
The latter labour under the illusion that they somehow loose out financially by this arrangement, when in fact the opposite is very much the case, as the Islands attract inward foreign capital investors to the UK and as a result are self financing and if not would otherwise be dependent on the UK tax payer (Much like the Isle of Wight and the Scottish Western Isles) to fund their infrastructure.
The EEC however being an organisation hell bent on centralisation of funding and therefore total control over it’s members,and largely motivated by those who wish to see a Federal European Super State, finds this historical anomaly annoying, primarily because it allows the UK to maintain a financial independence in it’s historical relationships with the rest of the world, ex EEC, and that annoys the Federalists immensely!
It is the key which gives the UK it’s independent clout on the World stage and needs to be defended at all costs from those who would wish to see a Great Nation reduced to the level of a Region in a Federated Super State, a situation that the majority (Statistically)of UK nationals would consider neither a)Practical nor b)Desirable.
R B Bougourd: I am afraid your definition of Great Britain is not correct, and for all your rubbing out you are still a “British National” and because we have a relationship through the UK with the EEC you also have status in the EEC which, unless your parents and grandparents were all locally born, means you don’t need a work permit to work in EEC countries.Which I would have thought you would view as an advantage, even if you have no intention of ever doing so?
Get Real Jersey:depending on your viewpoint,but in your case sadly “Nationality” is nothing to do with “Residence”, and neither is a Passport.
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@13 Nick
I welcome your verbose reply. I do really
My point was your comment “…“British” as part of “Great Britain” ” leading onto not being in the UK.
The quote “crown possession” to be an apt one.
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Nick, I beg to differ.
That isn’t my definition of Great Britain. I was quoting THE definition of Great Britain which is the geographical name for the principal island of the British Isles (presumably icluding almost contigous islands such as Anglesey and the Isle of Wight) but not the Isle of Man.
The term “Britain” is now commonly used to Describe the UK which is properly called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and is a political rather than geographical term. Northern Ireland is of course not in Great Britain but in the adjacent Island of Ireland. Everyone clear now?
The Channel Islands do not fit in with either of the above definitions. They are British Islands but not geographically in the British Isles. Geographically they are Normano Breton offshore remnants. Nationality wise they are just plain “British” – not UK, not Great Britain. Still with me?
As Jersey is not itself in the EEC I see no reason why the Jersey passport needs to include the heading “European Union”.
This surely must be offensive to all those who have that clause in their passport.
A Jerseyman contemporary of mine, who sadly died, was deeply upset when that front cover was introduced and refused to renew his passport.
Perhaps it would be better, if the passport merely signifies nationality, for the word Jersey not to be on there at all. (Storm of protest awaited!)
Yes, in fact, I do have EEC rights in my Jersey passport but I am not that interested in working or living there. As it happens I haven’t been to any european country since Euros came along as I have since discovered good places to visit much further away where they speak English, drive on the left and don’t need Euros.
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