Teenage yobs ‘are in a small minority’
Thursday 27th August 2009, 3:00PM BST.
A VOTE of confidence in Jersey’s teenagers has been delivered by acting police chief David Warcup, who has revealed that a third of all incidents are caused by a handful of troublemakers.
After a series of recent headline-grabbing stories detailing horrific assaults allegedly committed by gangs of youths, acting police chief David Warcup urged Islanders to focus on the vast majority of well-behaved teenagers.
He said that a hard core of a dozen young criminals accounted for just under a third of all youth arrests.
New figures released as part of the force’s report for the first half of this year show that between January and June the 12 individuals were arrested 121 times. The total number of arrests was 424.
The alleged offenders, some as young as 14, were arrested for crimes including burglary, minor assaults, disorder and theft from cars.
• See Thursday’s JEP for full story.
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Well clearly simply arresting them & giving them a good talking too with much finger wagging is not working!!!
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Tell you what Mr Warcup, I’ll concentrate on the majority of well behaved teenagers – you concentrate your resources on the handful of ill behaved thugs striking terror into the hearts of decent people. After all if there are only 12 of them your well funded over resourced force should be able to deal with them.
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It seems that even increasing the number of police on the ground would only serve to increase the arrest tally of this bunch of recidivists.
Clearly the penalties imposed are not having a deterrent effect, so the States need to address that pronto.
The three strikes rule seems fair – you can’t say you weren’t warned, so off you go to La Moye for eighteen months or so.
Oh, and don’t give me that guff about their rights (etc.) – they have infringed the rights of others too many times.
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well Mr warcup- get it sorted now whilst there are only ” a handful of troublemakers” before it escalates as it surely will!
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Keith 2 – Exactly what i was going to write!
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It has always been the same.
Looking back to my youth when pupils were struck with rulers, slippers and worse, it was the same half dozen or so in the year that collected 90% of the punishments.
One or two of them have turned into good citizens since becoming adults, a couple are a bit on the fringes of society and two have had a few visits to La Moye.
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you cant let a few kids take over the island and make people scared. stop arresting the and just lock them up for a while. The problems faced by this gang are insignificant compared to what the main land has to deal with. you must stop them when you can before crimes escalate and numbers increase!
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I live in Royal Square. This Monday I was woken up at 4am by youths fighting, screaming, arguing, having a bong or whatever they do. I shouted out my window for them to be quiet (less politely) and I got a torrent of abuse back.
I then proceeded to call the police whom informed me “that’s just the youth of today”, to which I responded “that’s the youth of today outside my window!!!!!”.
If the police are not worried about unruly youths what hope do we have in keeping order?
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I would like to applaud Mr Warcup for his public recognition that the vast majority of the Island’s teenagers are decent kids. In all sectors of society there are small groups of troublemakers and law breakers – and it is with those groups that I wish him and his team the very best of luck in bringing them to account.
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Well done Mr Warcup for reminding us that there is a majority of decent teenagers, a factor demonstrated daily by news articles highlighting this charity swim or that walk,climb,row,run etc.
I don’t suppose I need to point out that he has walked right into it with his “Hardcore of twelve or so individuals” comment!
The three strikes and your out suggestion worked in New York, why not here?
As for punishment, there are several “clearing up” jobs around the Island that I am sure would be deterrent enough if properly supervised over a period of months!
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To Sniffydog (no 8)Are you saying that the police didn’t bother to come out and deal with these youths who were disturbing the peace at 4AM? If that is the case that is disgraceful.I doubt they were up to their eyes in work at that time of the day and as the police station is minutes away there is no excuse for their negligence.I am not one of thoses people who criticise the police at every opportunity but this sort of episode does not paint them in a good light.
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These kids have never known discipline and have no understanding of consequence, their parents are entirely responsible.
The solution is simple, line them up in Royal Square and give them and their parents 20 lashes with the cat. Further offenses will result in double the amount for offender and parent with an exponential rise for following offenses.
Of course the authorities don’t have the stones to implement a deterrant that works. Failing that I agree 3 strikes and your out is a fair system, give them 18 months in La Moye with the big boys.
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If the yobs are a smmll minority, why can’t the police force handle them?
No, the problem isn’t small and as usual, the police are unequal to the task in hand.
I suppose therefore, the REAL problem either lies with their ineptitude or worse still, insufficient legislation within which they have any power to act to subdue those that frankly could do with a short sharp shock.
Society has gone soft and until we take back our right to punish those whose behaviour demands it, the innocent victims of increasing violence on our streets will continue to suffer.
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Most of the citizens in Jersey are decent law abiding people. It is well known that the vast amount of crime and disorder is committed by a small number of people – this is always highlighted in the British Crime Survey.
I recently visited Jersey and had no fear of being assaulted, or being mugged.
I wouldn’t say the same about some of the towns where I live in Dyfed-Powys, statistically – according to Home Office studies – I live in one of the safest parts of the U.K.
Even though the policing in Jersey is far from perfect, they are better that the boys and girls in blue here, whose get up and go seems to have got up and gone.
That said, the States of Jersey Police mustn’t sit on their laurels. They still need to be very pro-active in combating crime and disorder on the Island.
I never thought I’d do this, but I must also extol the vitues of the Honorary police….for those of you that whinge about policing on the ‘Rock’, why not become a Hobby Bobby.
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Don’t blame the police they are only working within the laws and procedures that the government we elected allows them.
If you really want these yobs punished, lobby your elected states members let them know how peed off you are with the dozen or so that are cocking a snoop at society. They are the ones that can chang the laws and give the police and courts the power to the job.
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ZBD
Yes we are lucky in Jersey.
The average man/woman in the street does have the opertunity do something towards keeping the community safe instead of just whinging about its shortfalls.
The Honorary police has improved leaps and bounds since your day, extensive training and complaints procedure only being a couple of them.
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Unfortunately there is a limit to what the police can do to prevent repeated yobbish behaviour with a toothless court system behind them. Just continually arresting them is obviously not having any effect whatsoever.
What these youths need is a compulsory few months in a residential boot camp.
Something similar to the TV program Boot Camp where over a period of time, through a mixture of discipline, absolutely zero tolerance for wicked/bolshy behaviour and group/individual activities, a good number of the inmates actually end up appreciating their own abilities, and thereby gaining confidence in, and respect for themselves and thereby hopefully others.
This sort of “punishment” would surely have more chance of turning them around than a slap on the wrist or a spell in normal youth detention?
Unfortunately as is often the case with troublesome and rebellious teenagers, the underlying cause of their ridiculous behaviour is often going to be total parental incompetence. So if the discipline route is going to have any chance of success in the long term there will also need to be some work done in the form of behavioural counselling for the partents too.
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How is god’s name did you calculate your figures….I think if you sat down and worked your figures out correctly you might notice that “TEENAGE YOBS ARE OF AN EXTREMELY LARGE MINORITY” go back to the drawing board.
Police have no interest what so ever as to what these kids are up to and neither have their parents and one can’t blame the parents all the time its the company they keep……police are very few and far between you ring them and you are told we don’t have any free units at the moment….HELLO WHY ARE WE PAYING OUR TAXES AND KEEPING THEM IN WELL PAID JOBS. Get a decent government in to run the island and get all these YOBS OFF THE STREETS and punishing them for what they have done….YET AGAIN NAME AND SHAME PUT THEIR PICTURES ON THE LOCAL PAPER….life is tough enough beside having to deal with these YOBS of today……
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If they’re a small minority shouldn’t that make it all the easier to deal with them properly and put an end to the problem?
Although if a dozen account for one-third of the problem does that mean that two-thirds are carried out by a large number of people who just on occasion display their utter disrespect for the rest of society? It is less worrying that a handful commit one-third of the crimes than that a large number of people have enough disrespect to commit the other two-thirds!
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all i can hear at night out of my window in town is drunken screaming children, i had my car kicked in for the fourth time in 2 years in town last saturday night i really dont care what it looks like anymore, i will never buy a new car ever again here,none of my friends in england ever tell me they have have had their car kicked in, jersey life enchancing…….
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Although Mr Warcups comments may be commendable in highlighting it is only a minority it also raises the question…why can’t the minority be enforced to toe the line?
Perhaps we need to introduce electronic tagging for the repeat offenders and give them curfews.
Roseville street seems to be a notorious hotspot right now, but every week there seems to be another incident. Why? when this is a “known” hotspot!
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PJG #16. I welcome the improvements in the Honorary Police, but I still can’t get my head around the fact hobby bobbies have primacy over the professionals – that said the system wasn’t that bad and I mostly enjoyed a good working relationship with many Centeniers; but there were a few akward blighters “By cri’ eh!”
I wonder what they’d make of Centeniers in the Dyfed-Powys area, where I now live.
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Looking back at the article by Dolores Cowburn, she outlined that 12 individuals were arrested 121 times.
Given that the police are just part of the Criminal Justice System, surely the Centeniers, Probation Service, Law Officers and Courts also have some responsibility for what is going on. Why are these people continually being released to continue with their disorder or criminal activity?
Also, if there were 424 arrests between January to June, given that there are about 240 States Police officers, that works out at less than 2 arrests per officer.(Yes I know some of these will be pen pushers who don’t participate in policing). That either means that some officers have got time to twiddle their thumbs, or that crime in Jersey isn’t as bad as we all think.
I wonder how many arrests the Honorary Police made out of that total? (No I am not knocking the Hobby Bobbies, in my day they made arrests and helped me out when I was in trouble on the street).
The crime rate has certainly improved since when Bergerac was around; he had to investigate at least one murder a week.
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As we are now advised that it is only a small number of youths who cause problems, then its time to release the names of thouse who cause trouble, backed up by legislation that enables these trouble makers to be sent down for significant periods.
The public at large direct their frustration at the Police because they are toothless when it comes to dealing with these youths. Back up our police with the legislation to deal with these youths, and the problem would reduce significantly.
Ultimately, we could reduce the size of the Police Force and make other savings in the Judicial system when the message gets accross that bad behavious and vandalism has its consequenses.
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Just last night two thugs threw a bottle thru the shop window below my flat… i saw them but done nothing as i knew a police response would have been an hour later and the thugs had run off anyway……i still believe the minority is alot more.Alot of these responses here are from people who live in quieter areas or in the country…i live directly in the town centre and i see shocking or anti social behaviour every single night…..sometimes its better than watching tv!come spend a week at my place and see for yourselves folks….minority?
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and just five minutes later …yes five minutes later 3 young lads where climbing scaffold opposite looking for any opportunity to get up to no good.Think i can set up weekend rates at mine for thug watch weekends….can include breakfast!
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Thicko Mick- why not just introduce public hangings in the Royal Square and hang the teenagers and their parents and their grandparents/brothers/sisters/aunts/uncles/teachers and afterwards we could all form a Jersey branch of the Taliban party.
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I often wonder if these kids like deputy dog describes aren’t just bored, cue one of my old man speeches about us “making our own fun” back in the day…
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Deputy Dog # 25 & 26. You amaze me by not calling the cops, even if you think there would be slow response. By not reporting what you’d witnessed you give them no chance to solve youe problem.
If you don’t think their service is good enough, please complain to the Acting Chief Officer and if you don’t think he will sort the problem out, get in touch with the Police Complaints Authority, or the Home Affairs Minister…bang the drum, do something, but don’t let the ‘toe rags’ get away with it please.
How about filming these yobs and passing on the film to the ‘fuzz’ so there is a chance of identifying the culprits?……Aggggh!
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Deputy Dog, I’m also in the town centre. See it every night in the same places. Crack down on general public drunkenness and the other behaviour will follow.
Think about it, if all minor crime is cracked down on then every single crime stands out more. It’s like littering and graffiti, the cleaner an area is kept the less likely it is to be littered or have graffiti put on it. Kids, especially, are led by example and if that example is a tough line on crime then better behaviour will follow.
I’m amazed walking through town as early as 6pm to see young men taking their place on the town benches with a load of cans around them ready to drink (see Charing Cross). Maybe this is a cultural difference, maybe drinking in outside public places is perfectly acceptable in some places but it isn’t where I’m from and I have to say I’m glad. It looks messy and brings the tone of the area down somewhat. Drinking outdoors should be limited to festivals or seated areas just outside pubs.
Other night saw a bus pass by with some teenage girls on it drinking alcohol and yelling and singing loudly. Thought the bus was stopping to kick them off but presumably the bus driver was too scared to.
Can someone start teaching people to respect themselves and others?
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When I was a boy, prefects from the school would be out and about in town looking for defaulters.
Next morning your name would be read out at the end of assembly and it was straight to the headmaster’s study and guess whose side he took with cane at the ready!
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Leah Holmes # 30 makes some very interesting comments.
In effect she outlines what is known as the ‘Broken Window’ theory. Criminologists have determined that if the appearance of an area appears neglected, then people will conclude that nobody cares and so they no longer care.
To avoid this happening,I would again advocate the use of zero tolerance when it comes to disorder – for that to occur the police need to deploy sufficient resources on the street and an instruction to deal robustly with every offence they see including simple offences like people dropping litter.
Leah also illustrates that ‘drinking prohibition zones’ are commonplace in the U.K. It would be a good to introduce such a scheme in Jersey.
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Having just read my last submission, I outlined the ‘Broken Windows’ theory….. From a very recent vist to the Island, I saw most of Jersey looks well maintained, litter and graffiti free. Does this disprove the theory?
I guess the point Leah Holmes was getting at, was that more ‘pro active’ policing is needed, so wrong doers know if they put a foot wrong they will be dealt with robustly. I wholeheartedly agree.
Many young males have a propensity to be aggressive. Unless someone challenges them, their aggressiveness is highly likely to escalate into violent or disorderly behaviour.
The problem is in recent years there has been a lot of liberal thinking on this issue and so called ‘social engineering’, has led us to believe we should tolerate this sort of behaviour. They say it isn’t the offender’s fault etc., etc. Poppycock.
Doubtless it is just a minority that are causing the majority of the problems. However the Island’s authorities need to get off their backsides and sort it out – that’s what they are paid to do.
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well maybe if teenagers had something to do in jersey it wouldnt be that bad but all jersey thinks about spending money on is bloody stupids things like that frog in town whats that about what a waste on money!!!!!! it annoys me so much
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Ahh Shutupp all of u , you dont even know what your talking about, you all just say yeah lock them up cause that sounds like the best thing to say!! how about we lock all of use up theres adults that aint soo innocent and they should be setting a good example we dont hear anything about adults what the rate is and im pretty sure thats high.
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They’re not thugs, they’re kids trying to look for something to do! Do you not get it? Kids love to get chased by the police as they have nothing better to do due to the lack of facilities in jersey.
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Quite a lot is being said here about drink, but of far more relevance is the drug issue.
There has been far too much social acceptance of certain drugs and currently legal substances and the providers of these, whose primary target are the young and impressionable, particularly in what they regard as a “rich” person’s island.
For instance,I personally know the daughter of an American based UK scientist who was involved in evaluating cannabis and LSD for possible medical use by a large US Pharmaceutical Company back in the 1960′s. His resulting mental problems as a result of that, and the effect on his then family were pretty devastating.And yet it is argued today that cannabis, now of a strength far greater than available then, is relatively harmless!This despite documented cases of fatal attacks on people caused by bad reaction or hallucinations caused by the substance.It is no accident that Zulu Warriors for example carried a particularly virulent form of cannabis into battle.
The point is that there is an old saying which I believe goes “The Devil finds work for idle hands”.
The answer to this minority is to get them up and get them actively employed on something constructive and rewarding.
Admittedly not an easy task but such effort might reduce your dozen to a hardcore one or two, and would be far more constructive than locking them up with older more hard bitten individuals or worse allowing them to continue with their anti social carrying on.
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ZBD, I’d say you were right. The broken windows theory can hold for general public behaviour also from drunken-fuelled violence to being an inconsiderate neighbour.
As long as it is clear to you that you are in the minority you’re more likely to shape up, however, if you regularly witness loud, drunken yobs disturbing the peace and getting away with it there’s little to worry you about doing the same the next time you are out ‘enjoying’ yourself.
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There is a good set of stocks up at the castle, get them in them in front of their own peers, at let the rotten fruit fly, we could of course go back an get a birch branch and give them a good thrashing they deserve.
Personaly I feel that the day the laws took away the power of schools to give out punishment, was the day we lost control of our Teenagers.
Never did any permanment damage to me and I think that the majority of Adults today would feel the same way. Our local Bobby would do his tour of the village, and if anybody stepped out of line, you got a Thick ear and one to match from your parents when you got home. Kids now, know that the law can’t touch them!! It has to change for everyones sake.
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ZBD
so long as the “professionals” keep on calling the honorary police Hobby Bobbies the fallacy of gum booted farmers dealing biased justice over the farm gate will carry on. A lot has changed.
There is no longer a Centeniers association, there is now an honorary police association.
The final cost of HDLG would have been much higher had not the HP supplied 2 officer to assist with cordon duties for the whole time of the investigation, add up those man hours the HP supplied for nothing.
Centeniers prior to presenting the cases investigated by the SOJ in the magistrates court have to charge the alleged offender, the public would be surprised how often a Centenier has to refuse to charge due to poor investigation and paperwork. This basic check on the solidity of the police case by a separate agency, whose members are elected by the public is what helps to stop the Mr. loophole type acquittals so often heard of on the mainland.
The honorary police may be unpaid but they are not amateurs. Please stop perpetuating an erroneous stereotype.
Other than this I find your posts interesting and informative, keep up the good work.
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Stick them on a rough council estate in East London for a few weeks. See how tough they are then.
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Perhaps it is time to address the problem of why alcohol is so readily available and so cheap.
Might it not be a good idea to get rid of the cheap loss leading deals involving drink and reduce the hours it is for sale and the number of outlets, particularly in St Helier that sell it day and night.
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PJG # 40. Maybe you are right, my views are based on historical events and if things have changed, then that’s great.
I am horrified to hear you say that SoJP officers are getting their paperwork wrong, as firstly their Sergeants should have completed a quality check and then the Criminal Justice Unit personnel should have ensured there was sufficient evidence in the report and accompanying statements.
I think officers used to hate me, as I was always rejecting reports and demanding re-writes.
I apologise if I gave an ‘erroneous sterotype’ of the Honoray Police. I was recently on holiday in the Island and saw evidence that some of the old guard were still in existance.
Despite that and not wishing to patronise you, I have every reason to be thankful to a number of Honorary Officers who helped me on various occasions when I was struggling with violent persons.
There were however some Centeniers in the old days whose decision making was questionable to say the least. Some even thought they new better than the Crown Advocates / S.G. / A.G. and tried to reverse their decisions. If you say thats all stopped, then I’ll be a happy man, but you’ll forgive me for being a little sceptical.
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ZDB
Many thanks for your apology. “Hobby Bobby”, especially from serving and retired SoJP colleagues can be very disheartening to people who are after all, doing there bit.
Alas there are those who are “not so” competent in all walks of life (I have even heard of incompetent criminals)
For your info all new HP whatever rank, now receive foundation training from SoJP. Their many other training courses are normally run by the same instructors as used by SoJP, also Centeniers receive training from SoJP legal advisors (who are also on 24hr call to give advice).
The relationship between SoJP and the HP at the moment I believe is very good (respect both ways)
As far as violence is concerned, here is another relatively unknown fact. HP officers complete with body armour were standing side by side assisting Sojp,and arresting for public order offences during the so called football riots in Minden place during the last 2 world cups.
Yes they are unpaid but I repeat they are not amateurs
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ZBD
My apology to you for using your ZBD by mistake.
A copy paste error I am afraid.
And there’s me talking about paperwork errors
To all others #44 should be attributed to PJG
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PJG # 45…..I am ZBD (remember Doogle?), not ZDB as at # 44. To err is to be human, but it is not police (Honorary or States) policy!
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PJG, (the real #44)
Of course they are amateurs. By definition. They do it for the love of it. Don’t they??
The word doesn’t have to carry connotations of inexperience. Obviously you have a problem with it. Perhaps that is because you feel that amateur equates with ineptitude. In fact they might be very accomplished in some instances.
The fact that you might not like the term “amateur” is not a good enough reason for it not to be the most appropriate, which it surely is.
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R B Bougourd # 47. How right you are. It is a bit like the Territorial Army in comparison with the Regular Army. They have some excellent guys and girls, as do the Honorary Police. Nevertheless I believe there must be a recognition that in many areas of policing they can not have the same skills as the professionals.
Dolores Cowburn’s news item, that started this chian of contributions, was about juvenile disorder. I believe that the Honorary Police can make a big differnce in policing this type of behaviour, deploying their officers to known trouble spots to deter disorder on the streets and arrest trouble makers.
This is one aspect of the ‘Jersey Way’ that -bar a few tweaks here and there (which PJG say has already occurred) – I wouldn’t like to see disappear from the Island.
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R B Bougourd
They do it to make the island a better/safer place for the benefit of all, you included.
Do they love being abused verbally by people using the word amateur in its disproving sense ? (from the Cambridge dictionary “Amateur” “#2 DISAPPROVING someone who lacks skill in what they do:”) I think not.
I think you will find unpaid “professional” is more appropriate
(again from Cambridge
“professional” related to work that needs special training or education”)
“The fact that you might not like the term is not a good enough reason for it not to be the most appropriate, which it surely is”.
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PJG # 49….maybe we can agree; many Honorary Police Officers do a good job, in a professional way. We shouldn’t get bogged down in semantics.
The important point is that the majority are not inept in what they do and so far as I know, everyone in the role is well intentioned.
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ZBD
I agree, there are many aspects of policing that are just not appropriate for the Honorary police.
Conducting investigations being only one.
Youth crime though, is one area where it is appropriate. The ability to deal with young offenders (perhaps not the dirty dozen) at parish hall without going down the road of magistrates court and giving them criminal records for the rest of their life.The majority of our youth are worth the effort to try and save before they join the ranks of the 12 who this thread is about.
Charging, an activity reserved for Centeniers. Surely a separate agency, elected by the public reviewing evidence before this important step cant be bad. One must remember after this step a suspect cannot be further questioned on the subject. One only has to look at when a Centenier refused to charge in the HdLG investigation recently, even though Mr Harper was telling him and the media there was more than enough evidence. In light of the complete lack of evidence Det Supt Mick Gradwell has revealed, I think the island was saved by that particular Centenier from that embarrassment, and the suspect CAN STILL be further questioned if necessary.
And of coarse financial. How much would GST increase were all the jobs carried out by the Honorary police done by paid professionals. Would the likes of the Battle of Flowers and air display survive if the organisers had to pay the real cost of policing such events.
Yes we need the Paid professional SoJP, But the island would be a poorer place were it not for the unpaid “professional” HP.
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ZBD #50
I Agree
A sensible way to close this particular side thread, especialy your final paragraph.
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amazing every body wondering about the youth today and talking about the youth back then there is no difference then and know .
the problem is the system they go on about making a difference for the next generation but they will be the same as the generation before …. all the system are interested in is spending money on the island with worthless statues what is the point of them it cost the tax payers thousands and thousand of pounds and very expensive steam clock that was build back to front thousands of pound what a waste …….know what is there for the younger generation to do in this island nothing totally nothing to do in this island that’s why they drink and cause trouble instead of spending money on statues why not concentrate on spending money on the younger generation like putting all those thousands of pounds how about forte regent doing nothing why not build things for them to do so they have some where to go and take them of the streets all the island is interested in is keeping there pockets full and making the island look good and they are forgetting about the younger generation ..
(SHADOW)
(SHADOW)
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