Workers rally on pay freeze
Tuesday 8th September 2009, 3:00PM BST.
Show of hands: About 1,000 public sector workers were at Fort Regent for last night’s meeting. Picture by David Ferguson (00783043)
ABOUT 1,000 public sector workers turned up at a mass meeting last night to vent their anger and protest against the States-imposed pay freeze.
Teachers, nurses, firefighters, civil servants and manual workers were among those who turned up at Fort Regent for the meeting called by unions and staff associations. In their hundreds, they supported a vote of no confidence in their employer.
Unite union local official Nick Corbel, who chaired the meeting, said afterwards that he was very pleased with the turn-out and the strong support received.
He said that the representatives would now meet again and decide on their next move, adding that it was now clear that the various groups would stand together in their dealings with the States.
During the meeting St Helier Deputy Paul Le Claire vowed to take a proposal to the States to overturn the decision to impose the pay freeze. He said that he would be seeking the support of other States Members for a change in attitude that would at least allow unions and staff associations to negotiate on behalf of their members.
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Does anybody here heard about recession? Profitable companies are reducing headcount, so black-hole-States have to introduce drastic measures. I can happily swap for £25k pa cosy job with countless side benefits!
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Unfortunately I find it difficult to be sympathetic to the cause of ths States workers as many people in the private sector are getting no pay rises, some are accepting pay cuts and/or a reduction in hours and some people are being laid off. There a re a number of benefits for states workers not enjoyed in the private sector.
If states workers get there way then it will be people like me in the private sector that will be paying for it so please excuse me if I am a little lacking in support.
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I am sure that the many private sector employees that have been made redundant, had their hours cut or have had a pay reduction would welcome a pay freeze. I work in the private sector and have recently been told that my pay will be frozen for the next twelve months – the first time in over a decade. However at this moment in time, I would rather this than be made redundant.
States workers are well paid and have a security of tenure not enjoyed by private sector employees. They should really appreciate their good fortune and get on with their jobs instead of complaining and threatening industrial action.
Purse strings are being tightened across the board. This is just a fact of life for the moment.
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Not like you to court popular opinion Mr Le Claire. A vote of no confidence in their employer – they’re employed by the state, what are they gonna do find another employer? careful you might end up in the same boat as the rest of us and have to work harder for less money not just a pay freeze.
When will these people wake up, there’s a recession on they are lucky to have jobs. my wife has lost her job and is unemployed, I’m delivering Pizza in a 2nd job to make the rent. You do not exist in isolation, as for arranging a meeting to ask public sector workers if they are happy with a pay freeze – it’s a bit like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas.
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The most significant point of divide between the Council of Millionaires and the States employees was made obvious at lasty evening’s meetingf when Senator Le Marquand stated that he had taken a £75,000 cut in pay to become a States member and that the £1,000 pay award that he and other States Members had received this year meant nothing to him! This island is indeed governed by the rich who have no idea what it is like to exist on a small salary / income. Shame on you Senator Le Marquand!
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100% behind you Nigel
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The states workers need to get real! Its tough out there at what they are facing now is just the reality the rest of us have got used to over the last 12 months. No doubt they will hold us all to ransom if they do not get their own way and we will end up paying for it. Public sypmathy will not be with them especially as the vast majority of states workers still enjoy benefits the rest of us only dream about. Final wage pensions for example
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Most of us have choices in life. I suggest States employees should be offered the choice of a pay freeze, a reduction in pay or redundancies. The States (us) do not owe these employees a living, indeed, some of these employees should be asking themselves what they can do for our Island in these difficult times. Get real. When The Island is doing well we all prosper but when it is not doing so well everyone must pull in the reins-THIS INCLUDES THE INCREDIBLY PRIVILEGED STATES EMPLOYEES.
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They should feel privileged to have a job. I have lost nearly half of my clients for my business because of this recession. It’s scary times. I would love to be able to have one of their cushy little numbers!
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Many of the States workers were at the time happy to have a pay freeze with the condition that the States would not make staff redundant but introduce a natural wastage program and other saving methods.
But as you have all seen a month or so a go Health started threatning jobs and cuts soon after the pay freeze went ahead and the States are still (quietly) threatning jobs.
The States have known about the credit crunch since last year yet have not introduced a natural wastage program of staff. They are still importing more and more people into the island and not giving the local job market a chance.
So while it is right to have a pay freeze in a time where money is tight it is also the responsability of the States to stop employing new staff from the UK and then threaten to make the local work force redundant.
Believe it or not Jersey does have an employable workforce.
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Why did le claire give away his £1000 pay rise and not hand it back to the treasury? He has effectivly given away OUR money as WE pay his wages.
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I don’t work for the states. However I know a couple of paramedics, a doctor and firemen. The doctor works hideous hours at a lower rate than in the UK. The paramedic earns less than the admin staff in the office. The firemen earn abut £27k per year. Now tell me you still feel the same! Generalised comments and observations have no room in these negotiations; some areas of the states pay disgracefully high; some are just a disgrace to the courageous and quite amazing people who do the roles.
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Public sector employees should get real about this serious recession. This is no time to make pay demands, unless those in that publically funded sector want to embark on a sad lottery of redundancy with no future and no prospects.For all the trumped up bravado, in yesterday’s Fort Regent meeting,those public sector employees should take a deep breath and accept reality.Opinion dictates that there is no sympathy for such “demands”, when all are affected across this island.
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It’s all good and well going on about the Private sector and their lack of annual increase, but we shouldn’t forget the “massive” bonuses a lot of them get on top of their basic salary! – Recession or not, they’re salaries are head and shoulders above the States salaries!
A lot of Private sector workers who are making these comments are forgetting, without these States workers, they’re “cushy” little lives could become a lot more complex with, for example a reduction in Nurses, Paramedics and Firefighters etc!
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To states worker;-
1) Only a very few private sector workers get massive bonuses, most earn about the same as the public sector for the same or more hours of work
2) Wholesale reduction of basis emergancy and healthcare cover is not as far as I was aware being suggested
30 Generally pay levels and job security is much higher in the public sector as demonstrated by numerous comparisons
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Thank you Banker (12)! As a states employee it is often quite upsetting to read negative comments from the quite frankly poorly informed general public. Before working for the states I worked in finance where I enjoyed a much better pension scheme than I currently do, along with a private health scheme, dental, and other bonuses which my employer paid for. Working for the states my pension is costing me more and the pay out when I retire won’t be enough to survive on. If I get sick I have no private scheme to rely on to pay doctors bills or get treatment sooner via private care. I also rely heavily on overtime to be able to afford to “have a life” beyond paying my mortgage and bills (if you can call it having a life by the time you’ve worked a 50+ hour week). With the reduction in overtime the states are forcing (ie by effectively reducing services if a colleague is sick rather than covering their work via overtime) and the fact that tax reliefs are being reduced, I have effectively taken a substantial pay cut over the last year. I feel these factors are not reflected in Mr le Suer’s survey of public sector earnings either! I suspect that tax returns only are looked at and the fact that overtime has been worked and shift allowance (compensation for the antisocial hours we work) does not get taken into account when it helps the treasury’s argument that we are already well paid! That all said I do still love my job!
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I’m sure they all do a good job but there’s not going to be much general sympathy for this at the moment.
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The trouble with unions is they drag all their members down to the lowest common denominator.
Pay is negotiated for the job a person is employed to do, not for how well they do it.
If you drive a fork lift truck, it make no difference to wages if your the best fork truck driver in the island or a knuckle dragging clock watcher.
So, do the near do wells buck up, or do the good ones say why should I work so hard for the same remuneration as him.
Its human nature isn’t it.
Kick out collective bargaining and pay the individual what they are worth. We would end up with a public service fit for purpose, probably cheaper as there would be less hangers on and the employees would probably get higher pay.
Everyone’s a winner except those that don’t want to work hard.
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It’s quite simple. Private sector workers, unhappy with your pay? Join a union and fight for it.
Happy to roll over? You’re problem.
get a voice, don’t moan at the poorly paid.
maybe you could ask why your company is having to cut your pay or whatever?
something to do with the bankers maybe?
Support the public workers, they have facilitated your life beyond value by turning up to work. YOU should be GRATEFUL to them for doing a job you are obviously too indoctrinated in your pathetic right wing tabloidese to take.
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16 Dishearterned….no different in the private sector at the moment as all the perks you refer to have long since gone!
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14 States Worker – isn’t your name a contradiction in terms? ie how many people work in states jobs – about half of them.
Banker – you are of course right, there are some exceptional people working in essential services positions for the states, most however are of the 6 men looking into a manhole variety ie what’s green and sleeps 6 – a states portacabin.
As for comment 16 disheartened, there are very few jobs in finance that give the benefits you name, they are options to purchase in many companies, others have some ( but not all ) of the benefits and some have none. Conversely the final salary pension scheme you have is available to no new employees.
As for reducing services and cancelling overtime when a colleague is sick, I’ve never had overtime, I am expected to pick up the slack and to this end I have often worked late or weekends. With the current recession half of my department has been made redundant or left and we’ve had to pick up the slack and maintain service levels, there were 3 in my team, now only me doing the same amount of work.
Welcome to the real world.
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Banker (12)
I note you comments on generalisations however this is a forum for peoples views not in depth studies.
My wife works for the states and if you think that you know some badly off states employees have a thought for those who have been employed by the states for 10 years in same job but only on a temporary contract which is re-negotiated every year (every term in the case of my wife). There is no pension, no holiday pay, no rights! In order to keep states employee numbers down this is how they fiddle the books as these people don’t count!
I still stand by my ‘general’ comments.
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I am not a States worker – but I say hats off to the combined States workers for standing up for justice – Well done all!
It is heartening to see people actively standing up the rights of the working people and those making negative comments and constantly moaning about the private sector laying off staff, etc instead they should get behind them and unite against injustices and bad money wasting decisions by many of our politicians, which are the root cause of many of the problems in the private sector too.
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I am a private sector worker and my partner is a States worker. A lot of the time workmates of his are dossing around, with several employees at his workplace that are always off sick (believe me they are not sick-just workshy!) and they get fully paid for this behaviour. They have to have so many employees to cover the sickness, which leaves many with not a full day’s work to do.
If the States worked on ridding themselves of those who are getting paid for doing practically nothing, then the decent workers would be kept more productive and happy, there would be more money available for everyone else and everyone would be happy.
I have no healthcare, no pay for sickness, no pay rise this year and for the foreseeable and absolutely no perks to my job except my monthly salary, which I am grateful for.
If Paul Le Claire was to think twice about his ridiculous gesture he would have seen (as per 12.MICK) that he is wantonly giving away OUR money and flashing it in our faces, no doubt of the impression that no-one can moan or be against it because it went to charity.
WELL I’m sorry but with job losses and cuts etc aplenty, charity really should begin at home right now. He should have given the money back to be put to better use on the public’s behalf. And States workers should just knuckle down with the rest of us, also if the States want to help, they can do away with GST and do EVERYONE in the Island a favour, not just one sector.
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#Disheartened i,m right beside you.
most of these comment made are of no help to any-one.
I,ve said it before and I,ll say it again working class people are their own worse enemy they should all stick together instead of bickering with each other.
look to the french,they have the guts lacking in jersey by all sticking together.
Why should they accept a pay freeze as everything has risen rapidly in this last year from rents to food and fuel just about everything.
why don,t they put a freeze on all these price risers and only then start talking.
Keep the faith disheartened and don,t let them bully you into submission.
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I would pay those doing the work i.e. the workers more and get rid of multiple layers of expensive management. Cut the top end down to the bone and you would free up plenty of money to pay for the needed jobs on the front line like nurses etc. Simple really.
I would say to those not happy in the private sector get a states job if you think they have such an easy ride. Try being a dustman or a nurse and doing something useful for your community instead of working in finance.
Why is it so many work in finance? It can’t be anything to do with earning good money, no physical work, working in an airconditioned office out of the rain and cold, geting bonuses, getting to wear a suit and looking down on those who do the hard graft can it?
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Whilst it is true that the higher States grades get a good salary – those at the lower/middle levels often do not and if you compare the private sector salaries for e.g secretarial staff, the salaries are well below the private sector.
A fair solution would be to limit any pay rise to those at/below the average salary ie circa £30K – those at the top don’t need it whilst those at the middle/bottom are struggling like the rest of us.
When you consider that we are 28 nurses short and waiting lists at the hospital are getting much longer – it’s time for something to be done about it.
Yes they should be grateful to have a job but they still have bills to pay and prices have risen drastically in the past year.
Instead of wasting money on resurfacing the cycle track and other unnecessary projects, the money would be better spent supporting the people of Jersey.
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20 Tricky – ok fair comment though I’m sure your 6-figure salary directors and mid/higher management levels probably do still find a way to enjoy those benefits.
What, in my opinion anyway, is at the heart of the states employees problem is that the states employment board has (illegally according to a politician that did turn up to the meeting) removed our unions right to collective bargaining via the pay freeze. I’m sure that private sector workers on the whole are still able to approach their employer as individuals and negotiate for higher pay where they are worth more (I know at least one friend who does this). All public sector workers are asking for is the 2% which had already been budgeted for by the states which is in line with inflation figures.
Given that there has been so much wastage of taxpayers money by the states recently (incinerator anyone?), wouldn’t the money be better in our wage packets where we can then spend it (enhancing the job security of those who work where we shop) and be taxed on it? What good is it doing sitting in a bank account right now earning next to no interest?
Also, don’t forget that comparisons and statistics can be used to prove absolutely anything those that compile them want to prove…
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21 Fat Bob – firstly, as I stated, those were benefits which were enjoyed within the last 5 years when I was in finance. Secondly, relate my comment about overtime to nursing/prison/etc etc and it is actually the general public who are being harmed when there is no overtime cover for someone who goes sick as you can’t just “pick up the slack” in many public sector jobs. With regards to your team I’m sure you were offered voluntary redundancy. If you don’t like it (and you sound as though you don’t enjoy your job) then perhaps you could apply to work for the states too and experience it first hand for yourself!
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Adrian
I normally like to read your posts (except the ones that go on for pages at a time), but your description of a finance job environment is highly inaccurate.
Air conditioning? If it worked it would be great, but more people get ill from re-circulating the germs than anything else. Then in summer it is stuffy and in winter it’s freezing cold.
Not all pay is good. Some are on peanuts and others stupid wages for seemingly doing nothing….a bit like the public sector.
No paid overtime, however, time in lieu is granted if no one else is off work.
No physical work (unless carting archive boxes around the office) but the mental strain and associated stress can be intolerable.
Not everyone gets bonuses.
Not everyone wears suits. Personally I prefer our policu of business casual because I hate ties and suits unless going to a wedding.
Looking down on the hard grafters? What planet are you on? If you really knew how the “real” workers in finance (not higher management) get through their days dealing with ignorant, arrogant and plain rude investors who like to talk how they please because it is their money and threaten your job if mistakes are made then you may change your opinion.
Instead of believing everything you hear (or make up) please get your facts right.
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No one outside the treasury can give an opinion about the pay freeze because we are not privy to states detail spending priority. We will continue to argue amongst each other until we have total accountability. The status quo exists of course by design.
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Might as well talk about the trusts that are theoretically controlled from within the island.
The main function of the highly paid staff are to pick the faxes from London etc off the machine and pretend that the investment ideas came from within the island.
A lot of the local finance and legal business is the local braves doing the leg work for the chiefs abroad!
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By reading the comments on this article i get the impression that no one is happy in their work!
You are all moaning that you all do not get peaks or its not that it is pictured!
My advice….Stop moaning or change jobs and if you want a pay rise ASK!
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Simple plan to avoid distruption in lala land (Jersey) in case of a strike by the barmy left.
If the socialist left within the public sector want to strike then employ some of the tens of thousands unemployed in the UK or mainland Europe qualified to do their work. You could probably reduce the wages even further thus saving more public money and really giving these public employees jobs for life bunch some competition. Ah strikes a thing of the past.
If they strike transfer their reduced pay and perks to the new workforce. If they come back they accept the lower package simple!
It’s simply market conditions, supply and demand!
If you’re unhappy with your life, place of work, employer, salary…. Change it! But dont except sympathy from the ruling right and ordinary taxpayers to pay for it when they too are being forced to tighten belts etc. Private school fees are expensive you know!
There is a reason why some rule and some do manual work..its called a class system coupled with breeding,education, luck and hard work.
For the record we are in a shifting global economy and we are all going to have to accept lower standards of living and salaries as the control of the global economy moves from West to East and the demographic fundementally shifts forever! Get used to it!
For example:-
In London a daily rate for a first class .net programer used to be (before the crunch) 1400 GBP per day. Its now around 680 GBP. I can get get the same services in India and numerous other countries including the USA for 1200 GBP per month!! It’s happening in a high end sector with fewer people so get ready for it happening in a big way in the manual worker section of the economy.
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Nurses, Firefighters, Ambulance drivers, Manual workers and the rest of them, yeah they don’t need a payrise what have they ever done for us ! it’s the bankers, Finance industry and all the other private industries that have turned this island into a dump that deserve the money. Get a grip these people are the one’s who keep the island moving !
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Looks like Ted(34) is upper class or in general stuck up, if private school is so expensive send them to a state’s school unless you don’t want them mixing with the riff raff
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B.S.Deluxe I know there are hard workers in finance just as there are in the States jobs and any other job type, just as there are dossers as well.
I was putting a different view of how others might view finance workers thats all. No disrespect to you as it appears you work in finance from your post.
As per aircon it should be banned to increase productivity.
As per overtime managers don’t get it as they are on a salary but workers who are on a wage should get it. This is one of the differences between management and the workers. Any worker who works unpaid overtime is, in my view, being taken for a ride. As per time in lieu you well know most don’t get what they are owed.
This is the problem with private workforces they are easy to take advantage of. They should be demanding what they are entitled to get not trying to pull others down to their levels. This isn’t progress this is regression to the Victorian age as far as I am concerned.
Yes there is mental strain and stress as well in other so called menial jobs.
Finance has a reputation for paying bonuses, unfortunately due to financial mistakes many have now been withdrawn.
I know not all finance people wear suits but many do and quite a few do look down on other groups of workers for some reason.
I find it surprising when one group of workers will attack another group of workers because they may have better pay and conditions.
All they are doing is helping those in charge bring all workers down to the lowest common denominator. Why give those in charge extra help to knock other workers down a peg or two? All workers should band together for mutual protection and support, as with numbers comes strength, to face a common threat to pay and conditions across the board.
Make no mistake divisions in anything is bad and leads to a loss for all involved.
I haven’t had to work in finance and I never would want to. As far as I am concerned it is the lubricant of the capitalist system which enables a select few to control the rest. It is about time for a change me thinks to a fairer system of mutual benefit for all.
Ted I am sure if you tried Chad they would probably do it for 50p a day for you. Thats the thing about globalisation, it cuts the price you have to pay for things, and it also makes your job more likely to outsourcing to either an overseas country, or cheaper labour in your own back yard. Its good to be able to move around isn’t it?
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Let’s just be honest. For an island of 90,000 people we have a bloated public sector. Is it just a Keynesian pump prime exercise but on a permanent basis? I make no comment on the standard of work these people do. I work in the private sector and see partners and managing directors of our big trust companies and the like over here who wouldn’t even get training contracts on the mainland.
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Well done to the firefighters at L’Etacq yesterday! Well done guys.
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Let’s hope we have a politician with the guts to stand up at he next election and propose real reform of he bloated, overpaid public sector.
1) An immediate end to final salary pension schemes
2) An immediate end to overtime for anyone earning over £30,000 a year
3) An immediate end to the overtime practices that lead to people systematically earning overtime (the figures there are horrendous)
4) A systematic review of what can be outsourced: no reason why private contractors can’t arrange rubbish disposal, park maintenance, beach cleaning, car parks etc
5) Further consideration of whether we could have a private hospital, the last proposal having been rejected without consideration by the now discredited previous Health fuhrer
6) Impose a pay freeze on any civil servant (i.e. pen pusher rather than teacher, nurse, frontline person etc) who has been in the States for more than 5 years. Let’s get these people to see the pressures normal people face in the real world.
People should realise that a job in the States isn’t a job for life, with perks, at the expense of the ordinary taxpayer.
Jersey expects an end to the bullying that the unions have subjected the Island to over the past 30 years. They should do what the private sector does – put up or shut up.
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Are these the same States workers who are being guaranteed a final salary pension plan – when I retired from working in the private sector my pension had been hit by two falls in shares and the pension I receive is very very poor. Why do private sector workers and retired tax payers having to subsidise the states workers who regardless of how bad they are at their jobs never seem to get the sack?
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Mad foetus (40) – would you seriously have nurses who according to the job adverts are on £33k salaries work extra shifts (and I’m talking 8-12 hour shifts) and not receive overtime payment for these extra shifts despite the impact on their health, family lives, social lives, life expectancy, etc?? I pick on nurses but this could also be applied to firefighters (well done to the boys who attended at st Ouen yesterday by the way, I hope those who were injured serving your island make a speedy and full recovery and are not disheartened in returning to work after reading the fictitiously based comments which are made in most of these postings), ambulance personnel, police, hospital security staff, and many others. A lot of overtime is worked within various departments due to under-staffing. This needs to be addressed as well as the pay issues.
As for outsourcing of public services – they are publicly funded for a reason (because they are essential). Do you seriously believe that private companies will be more cost effective in running these? Look at the NHS and the outsourcing there which is contributing to its failing. Do you not think that jobs will be strung out for longer than really necessary by companies who get paid by the day for the service they provide? No better than the so called lazy states workers don’t you think?
And what do you think a private hospital would achieve? Other than alienating the health service from those on the lowest incomes who would not be able to afford private care. Only recently did someone die alone and undiscovered for weeks having not been to the doctor in many years because of the financial problems they had in even being able to afford to pay rent. For those who can afford it there is a shiny ward on the top floor of the hospital offering private care as well as various private clinics dotted around the island.
I have already talked about the pension scheme and all I’ll add is that newer employees get a smaller fraction than previously when it comes to their retirement (we also contribute the same percentage of our salaries each month as the older guys who will get a larger percentage!). It is already being addressed. However, like I’ve said, by the time I retire I’ll need to have stashed a hell of a lot of pound notes under the mattress to be able to afford to survive coz my pension won’t be paying out enough!
I would like further definition of the “normal people” you refer to and the “pressures” that they face in the “real world”. Having worked in the private sector myself and transferred to the public sector I can tell you it don’t get more “real” than what us public sector employees face matey! There were plenty of public sector jobs advertised in the JEP on Thursday so I’d say to anyone who thinks the public sector is so cushy why not apply for one of those jobs yourself!
And before anyone tries to say “if you don’t like it apply for a private sector job” – been there done it and am fully aware of the mental stress there and the unpaid overtime which is often expected of staff. Decided I didn’t like going to work to make the rich richer, stressing over issues which at the end of the day really don’t matter in the world and that I’d have greater job satisfaction by serving the public! I do!
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mad foetus
How will that help the public? The private sector seeks only profit. It is unaccountable. Current public sector workers applying for jobs in new private replacements will get worse pay and conditions.
This is the crux of this ideology. The infrastructure that gives society the platform it needs to generate wealth is treated with such disdain by those that can afford to live comfortably that they forget its importance to them.
Whilst they want to get richer, the only way they know is to take money of others and dress that basic fact in disproven theory. Instead of a public body, its bosses democratically elected (whether any good or not), Jersey will be run by the multinats with no loyalty to the public. The public will have no say. The very same people who advocate this right wing direction are those that will profit the most, and who are well connected enough to lobby hard and use a friendly media to spread misinformation about the public sector.
The economic problems were caused by the finance industry’s greed. Here we have a classic case, as with the bank’s bonuses being huger than ever due to taxpayer cash, of the grabbing hand.
What you advocate, mad foetus, is a widening of the wealth gap, more power given to fewer unelected persons and a collapse in the already feeble moral in the lower paid, faced with more uncertainty and a bigger relative tax burden than present.
Commercial enterprise delivering infrastructure services can work with strict SLAs and decent employment law, but unfortunately that’s always viewed as state intervention.
Tax the rich.
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A final salary based pension scheme is just one of many options for pensions and it happens to be the one that was selected by the states as an employer. Private sector workers get over it please! It is wise for everyone – public and private sector workers alike – to have a fall-back plan and as well as the pension scheme offered by their employer try saving and maybe investing in bonds or property or something that will give u a little extra income in your retirement. And don’t forget – hindsight is a wonderful thing! I doubt that if the clock could be turned back the states would go for a final salary based scheme again!
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‘The firemen earn abut £27k per year.’
Not a bad salary. I’d take that!
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The alternatives the twisted right wing want to force the public sector to swallow only exist to make the bankers rich now at the expense of your security then. The top 1% of high earners in the UK take £10B in tax payer subsidies on their pension. The total pot for 100% is £47B. You tell me how that situation is justified and in the same breath they want to take away our future.
The lies are disseminated by vested interests to make the poor poorer and those that run the immoral schemes richer. It’s blatant and absolute theft and an abominable distortion of the value of work and life.
I agree that the higher end of the civil service is over egged, but that is also the fault of the greed of the private sector. If the bosses weren’t paid so much then the competition the public sector is forced to enter is essential to get the supposed quality.
The people that lead the calls to abolish the last piece of security those that were born after the war, who paid punitive taxes on the promise that they would be looked after when they stopped working, are those that stand to profit.
They are the most unpatriotic, evil sociopaths – inciting genocide through theft in the developing world, causing untold poverty all over the world – and here you have the ideologically blind lapdogs in cosy self centred Jersey daring to ruin further the chances of the majority.
Then you wonder why the standard of living is dropping, why there is so much ‘under-the-service’ disgust for each other and why our children are failing.
Blind pathetic ignorance believing an execrable religion.
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PJG # 18 makes some interesting points. I am an retired States employee and I must agree that some people get paid for what they are supposed to do and not what they actually achieve.
Workers and their managers (including top bosses)may be more motivated if they were paid for results, rather then time spent at work…there are some who spend eight hours at work and do nothing and those who spend a few hours at work and achieve a lot.
Unfortunately ‘perfomance management’ is a dirty phrase and if managers start asking awkward questions about the quantity or quality of some people’s efforts, workers often claim they are being bullied.
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I’ve worked for the States twice – once a holiday job as a manual worker, the second time as a senior civil servant. I left the second post for a role in the public sector and a 50% pay rise.
I remember working on the dustbin round. There were five of us in a van, the driver, the foreman and three in the back. There was only one door in the back so the foreman’s job was to decide who sat next to the door while the driver went between bins and the foreman and other 2 in the back sat down all day. If it rained, union terms was that we wouldn’t get out of the cab. It was time and a half on Saturday and double time on Sunday.
When Adrian says that workers in the public sector will get a worse deal in the private sector, what he means is that the taxpayer gets a bad deal at the moment. Well, I don’t think that’s right. I think the taxpayer has a right to expect value for money. And I don’t think we get it at the moment.
Disheartened sums up the paucity of his argument with the quote:
“Do you not think that jobs will be strung out for longer than really necessary by companies who get paid by the day for the service they provide?”
What sort of idiot would engage someone on a daily or hourly rate to complete a task (yes, I know, the States procurement department). You go out to tender, agree a fixed fee and an agreed service level. Then someone is incentivised to bid at a low level to get the job and perform it efficiently so they can get paid more.
And it shouldn’t be multinationals winning these jobs – it would be Jersey companies made up of the best staff from the existing States departments, who would be doing a job in a competitive environment where they were incentivised to do better.
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I’m afraid Arnald shows how some people have completely lost the plot.
He says “The top 1% of high earners in the UK take £10B in tax payer subsidies on their pension.” As a matter of fact, they don’t TAKE any subsidy at all. It is their money. The benefit they get is that they are not taxed on their pension contributions. It is the government that TAKES money from the high earners.
We need to get away from this crazy idea that the government should own and control everything and be in thrall to the unions.
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mad foetus
You see. We are talking the real world here.
That over a quarter of the theoretical tax take on a transfer of capital came from the top 1% speaks volumes enough.
The system is rotten. Every day stories are emerging from ongoing investigations of the crass greed of the top 1%. Forming a direct relationship with the Crown Dependencies, the accountancy and banking advise, encourage and make watertight morally dubious financial black holes.
That top 1% has, by majority, has created the worst possible disaster.
Of course a balance must be struck, the private sector is our human expression, but the relationship between the two must be mutually beneficial. That stat clearly rubbishes all notions of it.
You are defending a discredited ideology, a second rate delusion.
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Do your research before you comment Ben(45)! and what do you do? maybe your a secretary on £35k per year!
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Oi! #45 whoever you are. You’re not me. Get another name.
Ben
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Arnald,
What one earth are you gibbering about: “the theoretical tax take on a transfer of capital”? In other words, how much tax we could theoretically get if we charged something that we currently don’t.
What if I turned the argument on its head and said “over 90% of the theoretical tax take on carbonated drinks would come from the clinically obese: this shows how the obese have destroyed our society…”
The truth is, the reasn the West is in such a mess is because people have lived beyond their means and the banks were foolish enough to fund it. So you had unemployed people in the US being given mortgages they could never repay. But you also have a credit card culture in the UK, with people on average wages buying designer clothes, satellite TVs, DVDs and gaming systems. And it has all ultimately been funded by Chinese and Middle Eastern investors, buying government bonds.
But it is no more the fault of banks than it is the fault of those people who live on credit.
Which brings us back to the subject of this thread, and the lesson must surely be: live within your means. And in the current circumstances, that means pay restraint for the public sector.
My parents worked hard until retirement. They never bought a VCR or DVD player, they didn’t go on foreign holidays, they looked after their modest cars, they didn’t eat out or get takeaways, they didn’t spend £1.70 on a coffee or £2.50 on a sandwich ever. They spent what they could afford and made sure they saved whenever they could. If everybody followed that example, we wouldn’t be in the mess we are today.
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If they strike, sack them. Why should the people of Jersey be held to ransom by greedy civil servants. It is time to stand up to this stupidity once and for all and with the numbers currently out of work, the States will not have any trouble finding replacements.
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I really wish people would do their research on subjects before commenting on something they frankly know nothing about, you know who you are… or do you? the states workers, many of whom are now on income support do an amazing job, largly unnoticed by the corporate fat cats who exist purely to make the rich richer. let’s not forget the crux of the problem and the reason for the states workers rally, what the council of ministers and the SEB have done is ILLEGAL!!!! they one again have failed to pay a cost of living, therefore it is a pay cut, yes there is a recession but this is an ongoing trend not a one off because of the credit crunch. the reduction in services, from the annoying, bins not emptied enough to serious, reduction in fire, ambulance, nurses, teachers. we take these all for granted but when you need them and they don’t arrive who will you blame…. it’s time to oust the greedy council of ministers, so stop voting for them and vote in the ones with a bit of moral decency. get behind our workers because once they’re gone, we’ll realise what an amazing job they all do
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Mad Foetus, what a sad indictment,your parents never had a video/dvd, holidays,never had a takeaway or a meal out or a coffee…and you hold this up as something desirable as a way of life…what a righteous victim mentality that is almost Dickensian,grateful for small mercies etc, Rich mans schmooze= more for me ,less for you Ha Ha,poor old Mum and Dad bought the Govt. propaganda hook line and sinker…authored by those who lived high on the hog….the same people who would now have us all eating out of the dustbins while they swan around in the new Mercs….come the change brothers the worm is turning and no longer willing to doff it’s cap.
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Perhaps if the States of Jersey would like to show some insight into the recession and stop increasing States Rentals (2.5% rise announced earlier this month) then a pay freeze would be more acceptable to all.
I am no economist and nor is the finance minister. We saw a horrendous £7 million overspend by the Treasury Department and yet no accountability. Who pays the cost? The frontline staff of the States…
Remember the States of Jersey reduced the millionaires contributions to the states from 250k a year to 110k, which was suppose to encourage more millionaires to flock to Jersey however this didn’t happen.. Perhaps we should return the amount to 250k…
For simple reasons of economics I support the States employees…
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‘Do your research before you comment Ben(45)! and what do you do? maybe your a secretary on £35k per year!’
I was commenting on someone else’s post and yes I I would take 27K if that is what firemen get and if I were a secretary on 35K, why would I make some comment about taking a job 8K less! I would love to be paid 35K to be a secretary.
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It’s the time old case of six of one, half a dozen of the other. It should be done on a case by case basis. Yes the private sector is tightening its belt and the states should do the same, I just think they should look at other costs (i.e the farce that is our airport), before saying the firemen, doctors and teachers etc are not worth an additional couple of grand.
That said, I fully agree that there are a lot states workers who enjoy employment when actually doing very little and effectively having a job for life, or until the money runs out.
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Heh. ok. It looks like there are two Bens on here. I’ll change my name. Oh and erm…, no. I’m not a secretary.
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“Mad Foetus, what a sad indictment,your parents never had a video/dvd, holidays,never had a takeaway or a meal out or a coffee…and you hold this up as something desirable as a way of life…”
Truthseeker,
They bought their own house instead and had a decent pension. Choices, choices. But nobody is entitled to a standard of living that they cannot afford. And the West cannot afford its current standard of living – if it could, then, by definition, it wouldn’t be borrowing trillions off the Chinese.
When it comes to pay back the debt, it will be done by raising retirement ages to 75 and ending compulsory education at 14: all so you could buy coffee and DVDs. That’s social justice for you.
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This subject has certainly got everyone going.
I would suggest that sometimes the states workers get the blame for the mistakes of their masters!
The one statistic that is meaningful here is that the infrastructure cost of Jersey is significantly higher here than in Jersey. This clearly doesn’t mean that they pay there workers far less but they do spend less per head than we do. An analysis of this might shed more light on our spending.
It is also interesting to read recently that it is the lower paid workers who are being paid more in relation to the private sector and the higher graded workers who come out lower by comparison. Who worked that one out?
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Like some have said before some states workers do jobs that no one in thier right mind would openly volunteer for , for example fianance workers earning in the higher 50k plus are complaining that states workers have it better but thats because the jobs they do have to be done. Firemen , police officers , doctors , nurses, the list goes on. Ive never heard of a banker in jersey who puts his life at risk to do his or her job or a banker who goes into the office in the early hours of the morning to deal with drunk and violent accountents lol.
yes there examples from one extreme you might say and i apreciate that private secter workers are at more risk and yes we are in a recesion and so some states workers will have to have a reality check but my point remaines that we have to look out for our emergency services and our public services workers.
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