Island lawyers ‘costliest in world’
Thursday 24th September 2009, 3:00PM BST.
HOURLY rates charged by Jersey lawyers are ‘the most expensive on the planet’, according to a survey published this week.
On average, the rates levied by Jersey firms – with partners charged between £475 and £525 an hour – made them more costly than those of top City of London firms, says the survey.
However, the Jersey Law Society argues that the claim is not justified and says that the ‘average’ figure was not relevant to the market here because of the wide variation between the types of work done by Jersey law firms.
The president of the Jersey Law Society, Advocate Charles Thacker, said that without having more detail about the research methods it was ‘not possible to accept’ the accuracy of the figures quoted.
Read the full story in the Jersey Evening Post. Click here for subscription details. Individual editions are also available online.
I had legal aid, which involved me meeting someone for about 20 minutes to discuss the issue at hand.
The only other thing they did for me was a 30 second conversation in court.
Cost: £800.00
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As much as we all hate lawyers, I’m not convinced this survey gives a fair picture. I don’t know what the ‘average’ is based on, but I do know of at least a couple of firms where the most expensive partners are charged at around £350, so a lot less than the band mentioned in the article. London lawyers can be well over £500. Also a lot gets written off and firms don’t get any fees for the majority of legal aid they do.
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“Island lawyers ‘are costliest in world’”
So are the dentists, doctors, houses, food, everything in fact except wages for the working man. Welcome to the world of bend over and say aaaahh.
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With the amount of Bentleys they drive around in this is no surprise.
Had cause to use one last year to confirm something I knew but had to get “legal” confirmation,the cost was £250.00 for a 20 minute meeting & research would have been all of 10 minutes as that is how long it took me to discover the same answer.
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What’s the big deal?
Jersey lawyers are no different to anything else on this island – scandalous prices for a service no better than anywhere else
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Why,oh why, do we keep on about costs, everybody resident on this Island knows that food, fuel, vehicles, travel, building materials etc etc etc are more expensive than anywhere else so why should we be surprised that lawyers’ fees are now included, roll on retirement then I can sod off and live frugally on a desert island somewhere!!!
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Well, what a surprise that the only people that are surprised by this are the lawyers themselves.
Anyone who has bought a house or undertaken any legal transaction already knew this one, and it didn’t require a survey.
The real question is what happens now. Will our politicians just look the other way, let this issue pass and a sigh of relief will drift out from the legal profession, or, will our competition authority make a move now to restrict and structure legal fees?
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Why is this not a shock, this is the same as everything on this very very expensive Island.
This Island is over run by greed.
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‘Mogit’ must mean ‘complacency’ in some language or other.
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Keith comment 3 “So are the dentists, doctors, houses, food, everything in fact except wages for the working man”
Don’t get me started on dentists, how can it cost £600 for a crown that takes half an hour. They take the p*** on a grand scale. Doctors I don’t mind as at least you get seen before you are dead, usually the same day by someone whose first language is English.
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I had 2 jobs with lawyers here in Jersey who then refused to pay me and told me they would give me the run around in court if i tried taking them to court,no wonder they are so rich.The system was used and abused by these two lawyers names witheld but really the truth is why?, it was wrong.
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More than most earn in a week for one hour, about right. This is Jersey after all.
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Much as it pains me to say it there are various things which should qualify this report,:-
1)The lawyers on this Island are amongst the most highly trained in Great Britain.
2)They are responsible for the Legal reputation of what is in effect a small State in it’s own right from a legal prospective.
3)They,of necessity, have to be competent in a wide range of legal activity and be knowledgeable on legal matters in a wide range of other jurisdictions.
4) They are responsible for generating and subsequently retaining the majority of business in a leading and successful offshore financial center.
5)Not all fees billed at published rates are collected, and a lot are renegotiated or written off subsequent to billing.
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Is the JEP running short of news? Lawyers have been ripping off since before the bible, monks were a close second.
I well remember a story fr the days of my childhood in the Eastern parishes,it went like this:-
A resident went along to his neighboring advocate asking him if he could demand payment for two chickens killed by a person’s dog. The advocate told him that he would be well within his rights to make such a demand. Well sir, said the resident, it was your dog that killed my chickens; so at four shillings each you owe me eight shillings. Ah yes , said the advocate, but you owe me two guineas for the advice.
The legal robbers of snake street (Hill Street, formerly La Rue De Trois Pigeons) it must be remembered have short arms but deep pockets.
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moggit(6)your lucky you can leave with a plan for your retirement.
i belive i will be overcharged till my death, and the cost of cremation is going up isnt it?
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We dont know who or what survey was done.Would the president of the law society allow a more detailed survey?I would doubt it.Could the president give us a cost to expect for each type of legal service and if this industry is regulated in relation to fees and how many firms have been checked to see that this does not happen.
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Just look at the price charged for conveyancing.
A basic small terraced house(as originally built and re-sold many times)situated on a modern estate – OVER £2000!
Considering this ‘service’ consists in the main, of standard form filling & perhaps a site visit, it must take at least an hour (oh, & 2 phone calls) so £525 per hour seems pretty cheap! Doesn’t it?
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13 Nick..those rationalisations offer cold comfort to anyone who can not avail themselves of affordable legal representation,which is why so many miscarriages of justice happen…someone owes me 1k it costs 2k to recover…..no doesn’t wash mate.and legal aid here is simply not available in many cases as even before you’ve explained the problem you can be told you’ll have to arrive for the interview and pay £500 up front…I can supply proof if you wish,Legal Aid…but Sir I have no money……..Ah well.
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Comment 10 (Thicko Micko). Absolutely agree. Neither get me started on Dentists. Lets wait for a survey then I’ll rant on about being charged an extortionate amount for a small denture which I actually remove prior to eating!!
Sorry, must go – I’m beginning to get angry!!
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Time to break the monopoly hold that Jersey lawyers have enjoyed to the cost of islanders.It is wrong that they charge more per hour than the best in the City of London.
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‘Much as it pains me to say it there are various things which should qualify this report,:-
1)The lawyers on this Island are amongst the most highly trained in Great Britain.
2)They are responsible for the Legal reputation of what is in effect a small State in it’s own right from a legal prospective.
3)They,of necessity, have to be competent in a wide range of legal activity and be knowledgeable on legal matters in a wide range of other jurisdictions.
4) They are responsible for generating and subsequently retaining the majority of business in a leading and successful offshore financial center.
5)Not all fees billed at published rates are collected, and a lot are renegotiated or written off subsequent to billing.’
You are having a laugh!
How do you explain the fact that Slaughter and May or another leading London firm is bought in as consultants over the Limited Liability Partnership Law or any other tricky issue.
I know a lot of Jersey lawyers and there are more 2:2′s from respectable red brick universities than 1st class degrees from Oxbridge among their number!
A charitable description of the average Jersey lawyer is a provincial solicitor that has struck lucky.
Few London firms would even look at them if Jersey finance went down the pan and they had to seek employment elsewhere!
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Sorry Nick (13) but I must take issue with you there:
1. Are they really – what about Guernsey/London based lawyers?
2. I wouldn’t say that the legal reputation of the island is in such good help at the moment.
3. I’ve never known a local lawywer who will give legal advice on any other jurisdiction than Jersey.
4. Ask any Trust Company and they will say that the cost of legal fees in Jersey (for them and their clients)is one of the biggest barriers to growing their businesses and attracting new business to Jersey.
5. Most fees that are demanded are collected, although with charges so high, there does seem room for negotiation!
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Could this be why none of then want to challenge the system ?
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hey Phil catch up the scale fee of 1% for buying or selling a house went out of the window over a year ago because of the competition law and if you have recently paid 1% then that’s your fault for not picking up the phone and getting a few quotes.
Also did you see in the JEP the other day about the Jersey lawyer who has a castle in Scotland, well that’s not cheap to run and no doubt he also has a multimillion pound property here in Jersey as well not to mention several expensive cars in the garage and you can’t have all that by charging £50 per hour now can you!!!
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This is great news and we should all be pleased.
Law firms are one of the key bringers of wealth to the Island. The vast majority of their clients are from overseas. So the more that they can charge without driving clients away the better. It is bringing wealth into the Island far more efficiently with a far smaller impact than tourism or agriculture.
Two other points to remember. Firstly, most lawyers do not charge by the hour: other than in litigation you can negotiate a fixed fee in advance. Secondly, lawyers fees cover all of their expenses: not just secretaries, cleaners etc but LEGAL AID which is not publicly funded.
In other words, the Islands get a great deal from lawyers and should celebrate the fact that they are so successful.
A good news story we can all celebrate.
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Adrian
I understand that to be a lawyer one has many years of study and the responsibility that goes with the job is high.
But your comments do put their remuneration in perspective.
They are a greedy bunch of ……….. who charge what they like because for the work they do it is a legal requirement to use one.
a state approved scale of charges is necessary.
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I guess Nick (posting 13) is a lawyer and could shed some more light on the fact that, in essence, the legal profession appears to be the most parasitic, inefficient and self perpetuating industry known to man.
1. Firstly it drafts laws (meant to be written in clear and unambiguous language) that is normally couched in language that is unintelligible to the common man, or indeed well educated), who has to comply with it even though they may not even know of its existence.
2. These laws that are often contradictory ( e.g. Jersey Social Security law deems you to be self employed automatically after a period of 3 months, but you cannot work as a self employed person unless you register under the Regulation of Undertakings)
3. The advice they give is only an opinion and they have at best an overall success rate no better than the toss of a coin (there is always a winning side and a losing side)
4. Win or lose the Jersey lawyer makes his/her fortune (if the medical profession had this level of success there would be public outcry …followed no doubt by a bunch of lawyers promising to get huge amounts of compensation for the victims of incompetence and negligence)
5. They argue and bicker in court over the semantics and interpretation of the law that has been drafted by their own profession (remember it is meant to be clear and unambiguous) and the clients pay for this privilege.
6. To top it all if you use a lawyer and lose, you can always appeal and make the legal profession even richer.
If an organism in nature behaves in this manner, feeding of its host and rapidly propagating its own species, it would be referred to as a parasite.
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Ridiculous. City of London lawyers in specialised areas of finance / restructuring charge themseves out at £750 an hour plus. Even these days.
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I have found it necessary to seek legal assistance a number of times over recent years. I don’t bother to employ the services of a “regular” law firm as they all give the same advice – “plead guilty and accept whatever sentence is handed down”!
They then send you a massive fee account; it is a public disgarce and has been for far too long. A classic “Emperor’s new clothes” scenario – everyone knows that it is crazy but nothing is done about it.
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I was talking to the senior partner of a LEEDS law firm this summer who employers 100 lawyers/solicertors. He told me that his firm do not like to use Jersey lawyers if they can help it because they were the most expensive he had ever known. In fact the word “greddy” was used.
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31 Andy –
I think you’ve summed the problem up, even your friend uses the term “greddy” which is meaningless to us non-lawyers.
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DIY
I needed to take someone to petty debts – and did it DIY – go and speak to the greffe at the magistates court they will give the you all the advice you need for DIY style – it cost £27.50 and all you really need is a bit of common sense !!
My ‘defendant’ hired a lawyer to try and put me off – I still won the case even with all his learned abilities !!
Even if it’s not petty debts copies of the Laws can be purchased by anyone and you can indeed ‘represent yourself in court’
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DIY
All copies of Law can be purchased from the States Greffe. Go and talk to the Greffe at the Magistrates court and they will give you advice on the best course of action and the legal requirements needed !
I recently took someone to court representing myself and even though they had hired a Lawyer I still won my case – all you need is some guts and some common sense !!
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A reason (not the only one) for the higher fees is that Jersey law firms are compelled to support a legal aid system which does millions of pounds of free work each year for the poor and disadvantaged people in Jersey.
It is a fact that the provision of legal aid, according to the European Convention on Human Rights, is a burden that is imposed on ‘The State’ and not on private businesses. The States (and by proxy us guys the tax payers) do not want to fund it. Why? because it will cost us millions each year, that’s why.
So, each law firm has its own department for handling legal aid cases. This costs a lot of money and it has to be paid for somehow. The simple way is to charge a slightly higher rate to cover the cost.
If you were a plumber and you were being forced (yes, forced), by the States, to fix poor people’s leaky pipes for nothing, no matter what the cost, all year round, taking up valuable time and resources that could be earning your business money, how would you deal with it? You would probably employ a couple of specialist leak fixers and then charge a few bob more to your paying clients in order to pay their wages etc. Or go out of business.
When I start seeing mandatory ‘Dental Aid’,'Doctor Aid’ or ‘Optician Aid’ being introduced to force (yes, force) these ultra expensive services to do free essential work for the poor or disadvantaged in our community, like the legal profession do, I will start to agree with the critisisms.
Until then, I will smile through my blackened, gapped teeth and salute, with my good arm of course, those who do stuff for nought for those who have nought.
Even if they get paid well to do it.
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Why is everyone surprised? We have the highest paid civil sevrvants in the world, police fireman, nurses teachers, senior officers all earn more than their UK counterparts who all get taxed more.
I’d be interested to see which Jersey resident has ever been charged £525 per hour. Those rates are applied to commercial work for multinationals and what alot of the socialist contributors to this column fail to recognise is that the greater the earnings the greater the tax income for the public and the less they have to pay to keep the excessive civil servants in jobs and pensions for life.
Another thing, why should we give lawyers credit for doing alot of legal aid work for free. It’s an absolute privilege being compelled to go up to the prison or police cells to interview rapists and drug dealers and not be able to charge them a penny for your work.
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PJP – it’s not a legal requirement to use a lawyer (execpt for one area) so please get your facts right. If your charged with a criminal offence, or want a divorce or want to make a will you’re not obliged to use a lawyer. The only exception is conveyancing because quite rightly the Court doesn’t believe that numpties of the kind posting comments on this site would know how convey a property properly.
I saw a brand new Audi Q7 parked on a States Housing Estate and that basically says it all – alot of whinging civil servants scrounging off the public complaining about lawyers fees but they can all afford the latest car.
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The report is from a man who does not and has never has liked Jersey lawyers.
It is unbalanced purgamentum crapus.
Yes they charge a lot but no different to other similar jurisdictions
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mike,, i hope your comment was a joke! haha
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We shouldn’t forget that a majority of lawyers in the Island can’t practice law in Jersey because they haven’t passed their Jersey Law exams. So they aren’t actually going to be helping any of us in the near future. So Nick’s ‘pro bono/legal aid’ arrgument doesn’t apply to most.
Of course they can do a lot of work on capital markets, synthetic structures, securitisation etc etc.. all good stuff which er, caused the credit crunch.
They come here, get experience, bolster their CV and then either move on or make equity partner and grow rich on their drawings.
@ (11) Da Povey, yes I’ve heard from other trades similar stories on more than one occasion. Sad but true
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Flighty 32
Definitely the most useful comment on the thread!
GCHq 37
…”Yes they charge a lot but no different to other similar jurisdictions”
This is the “Novus ordo seclorum”
And “Annuit cœptis”…and “HE” is God, so the price must be right!
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They only have to charge so much cause the taxi’s to get them home charge more!
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the only thing that is cheap and in plentiful supply in jersey is verbal manure
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The last time I needed a lawyer, I used one in Southampton. The costs of legal work in Jersey is nothing short of a disgrace.
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J-Cat,
You are entirely wrong. The number of lawyers is irrelevant: the legal aid chits are divided among qualified advocates and it is their FIRMS that cover the cost.
Plain fact is the States have been passing the multi-million pound cost of legal aid on to advocates. If anyone can think of another business that has to hire entire teams of specialists to do a non-core activity for the public at no cost, feel free. Otherwise, congratulate lawyers on doing a great job for the Island and move on.
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“the ‘average’ figure was not relevant to the market here ”
Does this mean the Average house prices are wrong, the Average wages are wrong, the average cost of living are wrong?
seems to me that Advocate Charles Thacker is trying to justify the costs.
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Flighty, totally agree. I know someone who was recently taken to court (completely unjustifiably) by someone else. He had hired a lawyer, she was supposedly one of the best in her field, but from the letters she wrote I would seriously question the level of her education, my friend decided to represent himself. He won.
Remember also that if you are a member of some kind of professional association that there may be someone within the association, who is not a lawyer but who has a lot of experience of similar cases going to court, who would be willing to represent you or will at least be able to give you advice from their knowledge of cases against other members of the association.
I would always suggest asking around first and going to a lawyer last (unless you know you are guilty) as they are seriously overpriced and are not all as intelligent as you might expect.
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It would help the public greatly if the legal service was rejigged so that a States provided service (costing only a minimal amount) met with both parties and decided if there was actually any evidence to allow a case to proceed to the petty debts court. I am aware that Jersey has a (fantastic) mediation option but you simply should not be allowed to take anyone to the petty debts court without both parties being assessed for evidence first!
I’m self-employed and I was once taken to court by someone for a small amount of money that I did not owe. They were allowed to take me to court without even producing one piece of evidence. These people have since been the subject of a police investigation for their behaviour.
It doesn’t matter that I could easily have won in court, as it was a lot cheaper for me to pay up and use that day to work, than it would have been to take the day off to go to court or to pay a lawyer to represent me! Even if they were ordered to repay my costs I know that I would never have seen a penny from that company and I would have ended up worse off! I know others that have been in the same situation and it is a massive flaw in the legal system that this can occur.
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@44 Mad F
I know how legal aid works.
You miss my point – all those non Jersey Qualified don’t count, so don’t cost the Firm and certainly don’t benefit us Jersey Folk from a pro bono perspective.
Another interesting fact is the way large numbers of lawyers here fail to complete enough CPD to meet the UK Law Society’s own professional standards. But wait, they can get round this by pointing out they aren’t practising UK law in the UK (forget the moral compass or value of professional development,they are acting within the rules so it’s OK!). So we have swathes of lawyers who aren’t qualified to practise in this jurisdiction and who swiftly point out they don’t do any ‘UK Law’ either. Kind of makes you scratch your head and ask what is it they are doing…?
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@Steve Drummer 36.
Please explain what the connection is between seeing a brand new audi on a housing estate and over paid civil servants.
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Also.. for those who are interested..
Interestingly enough a text message will stand up as evidence in court !
You can give a contact phone number any name you want but you can’t edit the number from which the text message came !
Watch what you text !!
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O.K. all you legal eagles..what happens to some poor bloke who needs his day in court but is actually skint……ie it is no good giving him a bill as he can not pay it… ..what happens please…………?
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The only reason the average is higher in Jersey is because of the industry. Much of the financial work is costlier than other practice areas, such as criminal and family law.
But anyway, it pays for the porsche!
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Big bean – the point is that the tax payer (there is a statistic out there to the effect that something like 80% of the tax take is paid by 10% of the population) is through the taxes subsidising the rental for States accommodation. Tenants are effectively saying, we can’t afford the rent so please let us pay less than the market rate. Same argument with the assisted house scheme where the States (tax payer) funds about 25% of the cost. Strange how they can’t afford to pay the public the propoer rent yet can afford to splash out on a £40k car.
Lawyers as employers have unlimited liability. They stand to lose their homes if they get sued by a multinational for a mistake on a billion dollar deal which the insurance wont cover. A Jersey civil servant on the other hand is given a job for life. Taxpayers must fund his 2/3rds final salary pension until he dies (no one in the private sector has a pension that generous). Unlike many hundreds of people working in the private sector he probably doesn’t lose any sleep at night wondering if he’s going to be made redundant. If he is worried then he and his mates can just go out on strike and ruin people’s lives.
When I see the sort of useless comments from people moaning about lawyers it grates me that people can be so ignorant. Why doesn’t someone ask the comptroller of income tax to say what the effect would be on the Island’s economy of Ogiers, Mourants, Bedells and Careys all closed down. If people had to pay 45% tax to make up the shortfall we’d start at last to see some proper cost cutting exercises starting with the overinflated civil service. There are so many scams in the civil service it’s a disgrace but not as much of a disgrace as the politicians’ failure to tackle and deal with this massive overhead.
Average cost of a lawyer for local work – I’d say £250 to £300 per hour. About 4 times the hourly charge out rate for a Jacksons car mechanic as our Audi Q7 owner will soon find out.
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A little late as away in Italy but here are some cold facts :
1) The Jersey Law Society has 302 registered and qualified acting advocates and sollicitors. That is a ratio of 1 for every 280 of the island’s inhabitants, men, women and children. This does not include trainees, purely British or other Nationals able to practice in other jurisdictions, but working in Jersey.
2)The “Oath of Office of Sollicitors of the Royal Court” clearly states “Vous vous contenterez de gages et salaires raisonables et assisterez aux veuves, pauvres et orpheli
ns.”, which means …you will content yourselves with REASONABLE pledges and salaries and help widows, the poor and orphans. Remember that you are NOT obliged to have legal representation except in a few circumstances.
3) A sigfificant number of Jersey advocates are currently out of work. This is because vast quantities of funds, previously invested in Jersey, have moved with the tightening of legislation and norms to reduce money laundering. This means that Partners and established associates are having to fall back on Common and Criminal Law matters, thus pushing out junior and less experienced advocates. The whole structure is now “top-heavy” and will have to “adapt”, “restructure” “rationalise” or whatever other euphemism you care to use, as have the Finance and other industries to cope with the shrinking business.
The Oath gives the Bailiff and other Crown Officers the final word on the subject of fees, legal aid etc. Perhaps it would be useful for the Bailiff to make an official comment as to what he deems to be “GAGES ET SALAIRES RAISONABLES” !!
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#52 “But anyway, it pays for the porsche! ”
Just goes to show, money can buy you lots of things but it can’t buy you taste
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Know a few people that have got divorced the last few years and they were telling me their legal fees were between £25-45,000. Thought they were telling porkies, but looking at these prices now not so sure.
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Steve Drummer.
As a civil servant, I take offence at being labelled a scrounger when I pay: tax, school fees, private health care, and mortgage. Please advise on where I may be scrounging unless of course you are referring to my wage, which even us evil civil servants are entitled to earn a living.
Aside my audacity to draw a wage at the end of the month, I am still totally lost regarding your post and fail to see the connections you are making. Unless you have arrived at the assumption that all civil servants drive audi’s and live on housing estates.
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You have to ask if the Jersy lawyers are indeed getting such sums an hour then exactly what work do the undertake and for whom which keeps 42 law forms and circa 400 lawyers in business.
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I think those of you who suspect I am a lawyer might be interested to know that I am not, but I just felt I ought to state the case “For”, as our lawyers are a vital part of our finance industry and any denigration of their abilities could backfire on those employed in that industry, as they provide the infrastructure that industry is based on, for all the criticism levelled, just and unjust.
And for those who expound the virtues of UK lawyers, I am actually one of those rare creatures who privately sued a leading and well known firm of London Solicitors, whose senior partner at the time was the UK Attorney General,over fees and won!
Representing myself as well!
Such was the novelty of the experience that the senior’ish partner who eventually took my action seriously enough to actually attend and mount a defense in front of the Recorder at the Central Courts in the Strand nearly required medical assistance.
The joke did rebound on me in the end however as it was subsequently decided on appeal that my case should have been against the individual solicitor who did the so called “Work” rather than the partnership, who by the time of the appeal were his “former” employers!
As he was then out of work I did not pursue the matter.
It was worth it just for the look of horror on that firm’s partner’s face when the Recorder found against him, having steadfastly all through the extremely technical defense insisted on consulting case law books and then explaining to me in detail the counter arguement before rejecting the proposed precedent argument pointedly as irrelevant!
Spike Milligan came to mind as I watched this performance unfold, an image aided by the full wig!
Incidentally I did learn this for my money, if you dispute a UK legal Bill the firm concerned will seek to get you to have it “Taxed” by the Law Society!A strange term which involves their submitting their time sheets and bill for vetting (Read: Rubber Stamping) by the Society who then actually stamp it as fair and in accordance with standard charges! This then prevents you as the Plaintiff raising any further objection through legal channels!
Or taking the correct route of complaint of referring it to the Solicitor’s Complaints Bureau.
At the time of my action, one organisation operated from grand offices in London, the other (And I kid you not!)from a temporary Portakabin in a Milton Keynes Council carpark!
No prizes for guessing which was which!
Sadly we all wrongly believe that the Law like Navigation is an exact science, when in fact neither is the case!
To quote Lewis Carroll:
“In my youth, said the Sage,
I took up The Law,
And argued the case with my wife!
And the muscular strength this gave to my jaw,
Has lasted the rest of my Life!”
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48 J-Cat, you’re right but the non-locally qualified staff are not partners and do not get generally get charged out at the highest rates.
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Big Bean. There are obviously some civil servants who tax payers are more than happy to fund – namely those who are employed to carry out a job that needs to be done. However, Jersey’s civil service is tarnished with the reputation of protectionism and forcing the public to carry on paying for civil servants when there is no need for their employment. I cycled around St. Catherines two months ago at about 6:45 in the morning. There was a PSD lorry parked up in the car park with the “boys” enjoying a cup of tea. My guess is that their union has told the States that to empty the public bins around the East coast takes 4 hours whereas the job could be done in 1 hour. Then there’s the usual fiasco with overtime. My understanding is the various civil servants are contractually entitled to undertake overtime work (at time and half or double) even if there is no need work wise for the overtime.
The taxpayers in the private sector are collectively being well and truly short changed by the burden and cheating schemes of the civil service.
If a civil servant is paid by taxpayers for being in a job for which there is absolutely no need, it is little comfort that the tax payer gets a small rebate in terms of the civil servant paying tax. The tax payer in the private sector stills has to pay taxes and social security so that there is enough in the pot to pay this civil servant a 2/3rds final salary pension for the rest of his life once he’s retired from a job for which there was no need in the first place.
My guess Big Bean is that you sleep very well at night knowing that your employer can never fire you and that your home is safe and that when you retire, the tax payers from the private sector (including those awful lawyers) will continue to pay for your and the all the thousands of other civil servantsretirements.
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Im a lawyer, it took me seven years to qualify, at great personal expense.
The funny thing is if you want to try and change our price structures, which I believe are generally fair, you will need to instruct someone with legal knowledge to change it!
I charge £250 an hour if you need me.
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51….still no one has answered it…amazing that I find……ask Lawyers a straight question…..no answer so far….?
go on scroll back up to 51 and give us an honest answer…
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I think I’m going to start going to my GP every week now, regardless of whether there’s anything wrong with me or not, as it’s an absolute bargain to see them comparatively. Even if it’s just for lovely chin-wag.
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Truthseeker (51). There is no straight answer.
Depends why he needs his day in Court. If he wants to sue his electrician for a bill for £800 or so, he can go along to the Petty Debts (small claims) Court where he will be given all the information he needs to commence proceedings and sue as a litigant in person (no representation).
Apart from buying or selling a property, any person has the right to represent themselves in Court – they do not need a lawyer – that applies to poeple charged with murder, rape or ciouples divorcing, making wills, wanting tio sue their neighbours etc.
If his day in Court is because he’s been charged with a criminal offence then if he’s skint a lawyer will “voluntarily” (they’re basicially obliged through the oath they take each year) act for him for nothing assuming that he wants legal representation. In England the tax payer pays for the lawyer to provide the free representation. In Jersey the tax payer generally pays nothing for the majority of legal aid cases.
Your turn now Truthseeker: What if I’m skint but I want to use Naish Waddington Architects to design a building for me, or what if I’m skint but want cosmetic surgery to look like Brad Pit. What if I’m skint but want a firm of accountants to deal with my tax returns. What if I’m skint but would rather shop at M & S than the co-op? Like anything, you cut your cloth according to your means. If you can’t afford it you do without. People seem to think that they have a fundamental right to have access to a lawyer? Why?
Fortunately for most people in the Island charged with a criminal offence, Jersey lawyers agree that they do have a right and provide their services free of charge including paying rent and salaries for the office and staff necessary to provide that service. In some cases the clients are required to make a contribution to those services if they can afford it and what’s wrong with that?
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Steve Drummer. I sleep very well, knowing that I work hard to earn my wage and knowing that I do a good job.
I also sleep very well despite knowing that I pay more than a £1200 per month towards social security, for services that I have rarely used, tax, for services I rarely use and my pension, which despite what people think, we pay a huge sum each month towards, it’s not just a freebie.
I have worked out that by the time I retire I would have paid almost £250,000 into my pension over my career. Should I die 1 year after retirement, most of that money will stay with the states. Can you say the same?
I still fail to see the connection between the audi on the housing estate comment by the way, but don’t bother answering. I wont lose any sleep over it.
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We should really be focusing on what Jersey lawyer’s do and why.
Justice is a process, and whatever the outcome, its efficacy is determined by the fairness, honesty and aboveall “decency” of that process.
As a result of the oath which Jersey lawyers take each year, law firms are obliged to defend the underprivileged “free of charge” (or at a moderate price) thus their work is unquestionably “for the public good.”
So let them charge exorbitant hourly rates to those who have the money to pay, as long as they provide “free independent legal advice” to those who are not in such a fortunate position.
As for the Porsche, I agree with Leah 55.
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Big Bean. People in the private sector work hard to earn their wage and do a good job but because their jobs aren’t guaranteed by the States, many do lose sleep about their job security. Watch this space because my guess is that we will see some redundancies between now and Christmas. Less people employed in the private sector = less tax take by the public = more tax on the private sector.
When I retire, the States will pay me something like £110 per week pension. By the time I do retire I will have paid something in excess of £1m in tax to the comptroller. Of course if you live beyond your first year of retirement, then you may rest comfortable in the knowledge that the public (and especially professionals in the private sector) will have to pay higher taxes and more social security and take a cut in their living standards to ensure that you and the thousands of other retired civil servants in Jesrey can continue to enjoy your 2/3rds final salary pensions.
If someone living in subsidised states accommodation can afford a luxury car, then my view (call me uncaring if you want) is that I would rather see them making a bit more of a contribution towards the rent before the States apply my tax to house them. I would prefer to see my tax spent on people who are needy. Someone who can afford a brand new Audi should not be subsidised by tax payers.
Take a poll amongst employees in the private sector and ask them whether they would prefer to work in the public sector on the basis that the pay would be the same and they could retire after 25/30 years with a 2/3rds final salary.
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Mad Lawyer, good for you studying for 7 years to become a lawyer. Did anybody force you to? Was it a completely selfless sacrifice in an unholy desire to help people with no regard to the potential money on offer at the end of your studies?
You say your price structures are fair, but how are these charges arrived at and as compared to what? Other Lawyers? Are you charged for any services within the course of your work that you then pass onto your clients, or are they paying purely for your time? If the latter is the case, then surely these high charges are purely to fund yours and your Partners’ wages. If that’s the case, then you could pluck any figure you want out of the air couldn’t you?
A few years ago, my girlfriend and I bought a house, the conveyancing for which was taken care of by my best friend. He gave us a good discount, but the costs involved were still extortionate. I asked him, in the nicest possible way, why they charge so much and he replied that they just do, especially because all Lawyers do and house buyers/sellers don’t have any choice but to use them. He’s had a bit of shock recently, as he’s actually had to quote for business in the current climate. He doesn’t know what’s hit him – oh, I know what it is – the real world.
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Steve Drummer
I am PJG not PJP
Even one area “conveyancing” makes my statement ” for the work they do it is a legal requirement to use one “fact.
If you are a lawyer, I for one will not be using your services, I would require a lawyer that is accurate not one that makes the “numpty” mistakes in your posts, especially when it could be the clients name !
Your arrogance towards states workers is astounding, when was the last time you stood ankle deep in S*** because someone who does not understand drains blocked the main sewer by dumping his chip fat down the bog. How much per hour would you think that jobs worth.
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Bob Fleming – Im from a working class family. I would rather earn £250 an hour than answer you blog.
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I get fed up with the argument from lawyers and doctors that they studied for x number of years.
When we CHOOSE to study for that length of time we benefit from it, usually in above average salaries (if we choose to do that type of work). However, it does not mean that our salaries should be unbounded. We are not doing it out of the goodness of our hearts and purely because we love serving the public, we are doing it because it interests us and, for some people, simply because of the salary it will bring.
Salaries in many fields have got utterly ridiculous and all that is happening is that the divide between the haves and the have nots is getting bigger. This is not beneficial to society as a whole and it is time we realised that.
We are creating a legacy for future generations where if our child is not as capable as us, or simply is not interested in the same subjects, then we are condemning them to a salary that will probably be pitifully low relative to what they do.
#65, your latter arguments do not hold up. The things you mention are luxuries. At the moment we have a system where someone can choose to take you to court having created a petty debt, and you have to give up your time (and your money if you are self-employed) to defend yourself. Regardless of your innocence it DOES end up costing you, and there is something seriously wrong with a system that allows that. Even if you win and the person who created the petty debt is told to pay your costs, if they have no money then they can’t! So you end up worse off. If you do find yourself in this bizarre situation (as I did back in Scotland) then there is a need to have free representation, such that when you are found completely innocent all the costs are recouped from the other party, including the money you would have earned had you been working rather than been in court!
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Bob Flemming: “are they paying purely for your time”? Err..yes. When a builder carries out work his bill is normally split into parts and labour. When a plumber carries out work he normally charges for parts and labour. When a lawyer carries out work his bill is split into disbursements and fees. The level of fees is based (in the same way as a builder/garage/or plumber will calculate on (a) covering his overheads such staff, premises, equipment, software licences, heating etc; and (b) what he tries to earn. On that basis a lawyer, plumber, mechanic, or builder can all charge what they want for their time. Whether people choose to pay for that time is another matter. Unlike electricity, gas, water, incinerator, crematorium, car servicing under warranty, post etc., I don’t have a choice which supplier to use or what they will cost. For conveyancing the public has a choice of over 20 providers who all guarantee the purchaser’s title to the property (unlike in the UK where the government provides the guarantee).
PJG. You failed to state that the only requirement to use a lawyer was for conveyancing. Thank you for correcting my typos. My objection to States workers extends only to those who are being kept on in work and receiving a generous wage package and retirement benefit at the taxpayer’s expense when in truth there is no need for their employment in the public sector.
The rate for clearing drains? No idea but presumably whatever the going market rate is. If you don’t like what you’re doing then change jobs but if you work in the States I but you wouldn’t change over to the private sector.
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Mad Lawyer; what’s coming from a working class family got to do with anything? Let me get my string quartet started up while you wheel out your next cliche. I believe your response is “not answering the question” in your field of work.
Steve Drummer; there may be 20 conveyancing providers in the island, but at one time there was so much work for them that they all overcharged, which effectively creates a monopoly.
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Sadly, the posts of Mad Lawyer are a perfect example of why we hold his profession in such low regard. I certainly don’t need to spend £250 an hour to find this out
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Drumner. You clearly have a poor perception of people who work for the states.
Whilst I agree, (like every industry) there are some bad and lazy incompetent states workers, I think you will find the majority are hard working and conscientious.
If there were no states workers, then I am wondering how this island would run, unless of course you believe that it is not necessary to have teachers, nurses, fireman etc etc. and I find your comments and attitude towards these people in those professions insulting and offensive.
I bet you would be the first to moan should your children need urgent medical care and there were no paramedics or no hospital staff to care for them, or if your house was on fire and there was no service to put it out. I could go on!
I do agree on one thing though. If someone is living in subsidised housing and/or recieving benefits, then there is something very wrong if they can afford a luxury car. However, perhaps the car belonged to a visitor not a resident.
I still fail to see what someone living on a housing estate owning an audi has to do with being a civil servant though!
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no. 53 You quote that you are paying tax for states tennents housing! I am a states tennant and pay tax myself, also the states charge a fair rent, which is fair, I am not subsidised, you are just looking at the market rate that greedy land lords charge, just like greedy lawyers, a 1 bedroom non qualified £1500.00 per month! that is ludecrouis! I bet that is more than your mortgage. also you say about states workers pensions, they earn those pensions as they all work hard and earn their money through hard work, not billing people £300+ an hour! they would work a whole week for £300.00 and work right up to the retirement age, unlike lawyers that could probably retire at 50.
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As with all business pricing this whole matter of fee level is dependent on supply and demand!
In a market with increasing competition fees and charges,just like all prices become “Negotiable”.
However, there is an old saying “You get what you pay for” so the argument then moves on to how do you assess whether your lawyer is value for money?
The fee scales mentioned by some above are presumably worked out with some reference to the actual costs of running a legal practice?
However there is a need for a better, and independent, watchdog or Ombudsman to deal with disputes and complaints.There is no reason why this official body should not include in it’s employee ranks,lawyers of appropriate experience i.e. those who have run or worked in a legal practice?
Either way Lewis Carroll had it right I think as even with the Ombudsman you don’t get away from lawyers!
However I’m not sure where some of you have been if comments about GP’s and the medical profession’s charging is anything to go by?
As for divorce,there is a cartoon on the wall of a legal firm here in Jersey showing a farmer and his wife arguing over ownership of a cow, one is pulling it’s horns, the other it’s tail, whilst sitting on stools in the middle are two lawyers milking it! You have been warned.
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Thought this joke might be relevant to this thread
Lawyer: “Judge, I wish to appeal my client’s case on the basis of newly discovered evidence.”
Judge: “And what is the nature of the new evidence?”
Lawyer: “Judge, I discovered that my client still has £500 left.”
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Big Bean: Please, have the courtesy to read what I have actually said. As a taxpayer in the private sector I have no issue with civil servants who I pay through my taxes to perform a necesary service for the benefit of the public. Teachers, fireman, nurses, doctors, lawyers, judges, road cleaners, refuse collectors etc.
Where I do have an issue is being forced to provide them with jobs for life; being forced to provide them with retirement packages which are hugely expensive and which are simply no longer available in the private sector because of the cost; being forced to allow overtime scams; being forced to pay for people to be paid for jobs for which there is no necessity.
Historically, the retirement package was generous to compensate for the discrepency between public sector pay and private sector pay. Now, with many States’ wages at parity with the private sector (and in some cases much better) why is it fair that tax payers should continue pay for this?
If you take the States’ pensions deficit into account, there is no “rainy day” fund – the Island is in deficit pure and simple. One of the greates drags on public spending is the number of civil servants and the cost of those civil servants which cost the tax payer funds until the civil servant dies. No one is going to fund me, yet interest on my savings will be taxed in my retirement and a large chunk of that will go ensure that retired civil servants can continue to enjoy their retirement safe in the knolwedge that their income is guaranteed.
In some sectors (the Police for example), the age of retirement is so low that they will retire at 50 having worked 30 years (it might even be 25) and the taxpayer will fund their 2/3rds final salary index linked until they die. In other words, they work for 30 years and continue being paid for another 35 years or so. Money spent on pensions is money diverted from paying for medicine, schools, hospitals, doctors, etc.
In the private sector, we don’t have that cushion. I would take a 50% drop in my salary to retire at 50 and be guaranteed 2/3rds indexed linked for the rest of my life.
One day, a politician will have the courage to stand up against this waste of public money.
Ask your politician to find out from Comproller of Income tax what the total tax take is from legal partnerships operating in the Island (tax paid by the partnerships, the partners and the employees and social security contributions) and then you will see the size of their contribution to Island’s tax take.
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Bob Fleming, I will spend some of my time and money answering your question after all. The following is the approximate cost of training a a solicitor in England:-
A-Levels – £10,000 – £20,000
Degree – £20,000 – £30,000
LPC – £15,000
PSC – £5,000
Training contract – £33,000 (minimum)
It costs on average £93,000 to get a solicitor qualified. No funding comes from the government, if you are lucky enough to have a firm sponsor you then you may get some of your fees paid by the firm. But most law students fund all of the above up to the training contract stage themselves. This takes on average of 7 years, of studying a great deal and spending a lot of free time helping charities, working for free in law firms e.t.c.
Once a solicitor is qualified he is required to carry out ongoing learning, which can cost up to £5,000 per year. Once a solicitor is qualified it is only the beginning and it takes years of experience, usually, before he properly knows his game.
As well as the training costs of the training lawyers, the firm has to pay for profesional indemnity insurance, rates, taxes, electricity, premises, and other numerous expenses plus staff.
Coming from a working class family has a lot to do with it, because the majority of lawyers are from wealthy families with contacts and who have money to invest in the individuals. With little help available to trainnee lawyers from any body, often the trainnee lawyers, like I once was, have to take out massive loans and virtually bankrupt themselves to qualify.
Of the £250 I charge for my services, I may take home, if im lucky £30 – £40 of it after paying out all of the above.
We also provide free services to the less well off. I have no qualms whatsoever in charging my current fee.
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Whatever a lawyer at the bigger firms charges, he has to cover:
1) rent
legal aid
2) insurance
3) support staff (secretaries, HR, compliance, marketing, knowledge management, IT, accounts etc)
4) study leave for junior staff
5) rates and taxes
6) cleaners
7) commercial subscriptions
9) London marketing
etc etc
The top rates are charged to corporate clients. If you are a Jersey resident with a property, family or contractual support you should go to one of the many small firms who have much smaller overheads.
But the crux is that if a firm bills £350 per hour, the chances are the partner is taking home less than 20% of that.
Only the full equity partners at the very big firms are earning anywhere near the amount you might believe from the £500 ph headline figure. The figures are not dissimilar to the UK.
Go to Legal Week website and look at the profit figures of UK firms: partners earn anything between £50,000 per year (at big regional firms like Blake Lapthorn) to £1m plus at a very few select magic circle firms.
I am confident figures at Jersey law firms are not too far away from that.
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Bob Flemming, the charge out rate has to account for the cost of running a practice, all overheads including signifcant support staff wages and the biggest of all single expenses – the insurance premium.
You moan about the cost of conveyancing, yet an estate agent will charge you more than a lawyer for doing much less. Lawyers fees have to take account of risk and generally lawyers advise on high value transactions therefore exposing themselves to higher liability than many other professions – whether its a few hundred thousand pound conveyance, a sale of business or securing a loan to a bank. If the lawyer gets it wrong, its client can recover his losses from the lawyer. You pay for expertise but also to protect yourself.
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Before we all get worked up, has it occurred to anyone that the respective posts under the name “mad lawyer” are either tongue in cheek or mischief making?
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Mad Lawyer; thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I’m not trying to prove any point here – I really was just curious about why it costs so much to see a Lawyer.
I agree that coming from a working class background is a disadvantage in trying to qualify, but I don’t agree that we should feel sorry for you, as you knew exactly what you were getting yourself into when you undertook the task. Your A-levels were seriously expensive by the way.
Goon; I agree that Estate Agents are too expensive as well.
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Bob Fleming, no problem. Just one further point with regard to an issue you seem to have made up. Where in my blogs above have I asked people to feel sorry for me? Perhaps my tone was slightly downhearted, or the intonation led you to believe I was looking for pity? Well, to confirm, I do not nor will I ever expect people to feel sorry for me.
I am currently campaigning to get the process of and the costs of legal training reviewed so it is more accessible to less well off candidates. There is a competition in The Times at present along these lines. Perhaps if the cost of training lawyers were less prohibitive to the general populace then legal fees would be overall be less. Just a thought.
P.s. My est. for A-levels (£10,000 to £20,000) was keeping in food, paying rent e.t.c. for the 2 years it takes to do A-levels. It could be more or less depending on whether you have support from family or other during the period.
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I think Mad Lawyer is serious, although possibly some of her arguements are a bit flawed. The key points, in my view, are that:
(a) the biggest fees are, in general, paid by those who can afford them (or at least, have been able to up to now) ie the big financial institutions and trusts
(b) in effect, part of that fee goes to fund the legal aid system, which does very great work and ensures that those who need legal representation (say if they’ve been charged with a criminal offence and need defending – innocent until proven guilty after all) can get the help they need
(c) the UK legal aid system is in a complete mess, partly because it is funded by the Gov’t, and it is (probably) completely unique (apart from Guernsey maybe) for a system offering public benefit to be funded privately by law firms
(d) on the whole, Jersey civil servants are paid considerably more than their UK counterparts, and their pensions (if they are 2/3 of final salary as quoted) are better too. Part of this is explained by a historically higher cost of living in Jersey, but perhaps not all of it.
(e) The top salary of the top civil servant in Jersey is higher than that of the Cabinet Secretary, the most senior civil servant in the UK, who has 57 million people to worry about, not 86,000.
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the audi Q7 owner has worked out he or she will never afford a home of their own, no matter how hard they work , and have purchased on hp and good safe car to take the kids about , do the shopping, maybe a trip to a campsite in france to show the kids there is a world out there.
and keep it for ten years or so.
as for the cost of servicing , there a many independant mechanics out there who can do the work at a fraction of the cost of jacksons.
maybe mr drummer you would like to see states tenants drive clapped out death traps and dress in sacking.
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Let the Jersey tax payers cover the cost of legal aid in Jersey and the hourly rates of our local lawyers might be less than they are.
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Steve Drummer #60
It is people like you who give people like me a bad name. Small wonder we have a tarnished reputation – if you’ve heard it from someone you know it must be true; eh?
Maybe you missed the announcement of redundancies in the Public Sector recently,is that a job for life?
The TTS/PSD lorry in qustion could have been there for a number of reasons; the “boys” could have been taking their first break since much earlier, maybe even a breakdown – who knows? The point is that you didn’t bother to find out, think the worst, and propagate your ill-feeling.
Again; you are mistaken about overtime – especially where minimum periods need to be worked for free before a claim is made. Different pay groups have different arrangements but double-time is rare and time+1/4 is a more likely rate.
Why not get some answers from the Communications Unit before they get closed down?
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No-one can get a 2/3 final salary anymore; it was phased out a while ago, although there are still some claiming it who were part of the old scheme. It went to 1/2, and for new entrants is now even lower.
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Ya they are very costly, but to be frank they are well experience….
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David Brown #88 – totally agree with you, whats to say the owner of the Audi isnt paying full (Fair) rent as well!!!
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