Seven sites proposed for housing
Saturday 26th September 2009, 2:59PM BST.
One of the proposed sites is a field next to Haute Vallée School
SEVEN sites are being put forward for rezoning because the built-up area will not be able to supply Jersey’s housing demands over the next ten years.
Plans to build 200 to 250 houses on two green fields and five areas that are either glasshouse sites or brownfield sites – land that has been built on before – have been proposed in the draft Island Plan.
The plan, which will form the Island’s Planning policy for the next ten years, was released to the public today and identifies the following sites for development:
• De La Mare Nurseries, Grouville.
• Cooke’s Rose Farm, a glasshouse field in St Lawrence.
• Samarès Nurseries, St Clement.
• Longueville Nurseries, St Saviour.
• A glasshouse field in Rue des Cosnets, St Ouen.
• A green field next to Haute Vallée School, St Helier.
• A green field in Verte Rue, St Peter.
Environment Minister Freddie Cohen said that even if seven sites were rezoned, the Island would still not meet the anticipated demands for affordable homes.
• News focus in Monday’s Jersey Evening Post
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250 new homes, but not for the likes of us, I think we have all got the message by now Freddie, which is if you don’t work in finance/banking, sod off we are not interested in supporting you or your family, fair statement i’d say !!!!!
Thanx for laying it on the line so succinctly.
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Thank goodness for once they are looking outside St Helier. St Helier is a crime hub waiting to explode if development continues at the current rate. I am getting out asap.
Still, not allowing the finance companies to be spread out was utter idiocy on the part of the States. In this day and age of electronic communication there is no need for all the finance companies to be in one place. And if they were to be in one place then the best place for it would have been close to the airport.
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Is this government totally mad? Has it got no sense of proportion?
If this government continues to authorise building on green field sites the island will be completely covered in concrete within 100 years.
Do we really want to bequeath such an awful legacy to our heirs and successors?
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Mogit.
I worked in Finance once and while there loads of people i knew in other jobs were earning far more than me. Carpenters, builders, architects, shop owners, mechanics, and on and on. Not everyone in Finance falls under the richlist umbrella that you portray.
However, i do understand that housing is only affordable to those on a very high salary or joint income but you should not put all finance workers under the same umbrella. do you honestly think someone in finance on 20k a year can afford a house just because they work in the finance industry. I certainly hope not.
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its a start, none to be sold on a buy to let at all, and not sold on for ten years.
lets hope they are affordable , and not rabbit hutches , that you struggle to get wardrobes into the bedrooms.
what does the public think is a affordable price?
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- Increase years till residancy can be gained.
and
- reduce immigration.
That should sort the problem and stop the need to rezone. So simple.
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I appeal to the conscience of every states member..STOP.just stop this madness NOW..the infra structure is creaking as it is……the place is being ruined and the quality of life is being seriously eroded….have you no kids or grand kids ..? what is the matter with you……………?
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The cart has, once again, been put well in front of the horse. The re-zoning of these sites, without the States negotiating the purchase price beforehand, is the first major contributor to the inflated costs of new housing in Jersey.
EXAMPLE: The land-owner of a large field with derelict greenhouses, which would normally be countryside or green zone, would be fortunate to get £100,000. The re-zoning now makes it worth £2-million because the land is available on the open market AND the States have left the provision of vital housing to private developers. Now lets suggest that the field can accommodate 25 houses – at £2-million this equates to £80,000 per house, before any buidling work has commenced. If the States employed a negotiated purchase rate of, say 3 x current market value, then the land could be purchased at £300,000 – equating to £12,000 per house. The difference of £68,000 means that a £450,000 first time buyer house is now £382,000 and the developer still makes the same profit on the project.
There are fairly obvious further savings to be made, such as the States actually being the developer and having the building work put out to contract. Contractor profit margin is lower than a developer margin and there’s a big chunk of change clawed back from the selling price.
LESSON: Don’t blame the private developers – they’re operating within the current framework provided by the States. It’s up to the States to change the method by which essential housing is provided, and quite frankly I cannot see what the difficulty is.
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Magnolia Man wrote
“If this government continues to authorise building on green field sites the island will be completely covered in concrete within 100 years.
Do we really want to bequeath such an awful legacy to our heirs and successors?”
Ah yes,eh. But just think how many more heirs and succssors will be able to enjoy living in such a rich community!
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This is the sad but inevitable consequence of our collective reliance on the ‘Finance Industry’ and a belated acceptance that the failed 1948 Housing Law will not and cannot make the limited land area of Jersey be spread ever move thinly.
We need a repeal of the 1948 Housing Law and new industries to replace the horticulture which is about to be buried under all the new houses.
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And when they are built by Dandara and can’t sell the States will use them for shared equity schemes to maintain the high prices.
I do hope these plots of land are taxed for capital gains as the field/ ex greenhouse obviously becomes massively more valuable over night when planning permission is given.
These sites must be sold at brown field rates plus a small premium and not as housing sites where we know they become worth millions just because Freddie decides to re-zone them.
Maybe the greenhouse at the bottom of my aunts garden can be re-zoned for housing and I can make a mint aswell.
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NO, NO, NO, NO.
Is no-one going to stop Senator Cohen’s mad rush to turn Jersey into Hong Kong?
What happened to the Island Plan that Senator Cohen promised to adhere to?
Why do we have to wait 2 1/2 more long years to get this man out?
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4)jp – I was recently privy to a conversation between a local company and a member of the finance industry,the comment was, when referring to the £1million turnover of this company,I can put one youngster in the finance industry who will generate ten times more income than your company with it’s nine employees, eight less pensions to pay at the end of the day !!!
As far as I am concerned that lays it on the line for all manual business’ in the island.
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Has some one gone “stark raving mad”?
Just look at Saturday’s J E P ‘move the port to La Collette…so 800 homes can be built where Elizabeth terminal is…Fuel Farm to go offshore…’ they did not mention the new incinerator having to be moved, I suppose that’s a plus!
What would be the cost of moving the port and fuel farm? How long will it take to build the ‘new island’ to take the Fuel Farm, as all the other ‘islands/islets’ are protected because they are in the RAMSAR area.
E. le Goff
St Helier.
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The east if full to bursting.
More in St Ouens, St Mary, St Lawrence.
Oh no, thats where the elite live isnt it, never be allowed to build there.
St Saviour wont have any green areas for us to breathe in soon.
Who makes these plans and where the heck are our Deputies in these areas?
Time to emigrate.
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De la Mare site… thanks for creating another village! its’s not gorey or fauvic, should we call it the mare?
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Part of the problem is that more & more people now live on their own these days, this is partially driving the need for more housing. Yes, we need to control population figures, but this isn’t the sole issue. It would be interesting to know how many properties are being occupied by 1 person compared to 25 years back.
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The rate that Jersey is going, there will be no attractive places to make this a beautiful Island anymore. The Island will just be over priced houses and buildings to house financial corporations.
What kind of tourist is going to want to come here?
If they want more crime from youths and future generations of adults, they are going the right way about it!
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Nellie
Hong Kong has a population density of 6,500 persons per square kilometre whereas Jersey’s population density is under 800 persons per square kilometre (which is, incidentally, less than Guernsey).
Let’s have some perspective please and less scaremongering.
For Jersey to be ‘turning into’ Hong Kong we would need a population of nearly 800,000 in which case you would have every right to be concerned.
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More re-zoning!!! Are they conveniently ignoring all the other sites that have already been approved for development and nothing has happended to them, as well as the other sites currently pending with the planning department.
I read a recent report that the world will soon not have enough agricultural land to support the population because it is being build on, this will be the fate of Jersey, no local agriculture or green fields only miles of estates full of ugly, unafordable cloned boxes the developers laughingly call “Houses”.
Get a grip on reality Freddie, listen to the people who voted you in and can vote you out of power, “affordable” housing on this island is a thing of the past!
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Mogit, you shouldn’t believe everything you hear.
It amazes me how people bang on about a lack of affordable homes, and in the same breath criticise proposals for homes to be built.
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Mogit 13.
not sure i understand what you are trying to say, the person was talking about a youngster generating income for the company and not the youngster being on a huge wage so you have lost me as to how that compares to portraying all finance workers as rich.
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If new homes must be built please built some that can be rented out to local people at a reasonable rent. Not ever one can afford the rents that the finance pay the landlords, not all local can get states housing> I known because even thought I am 61 born and lived all my life in Jersey but recently had to retire and leave my home land because I can not find a property to rent at a reasonable price.
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Funny how a lot of these glasshouse sites are being rezoned. Glasshouses are deemed as temporary structures that should be returned to agriculture/re built once they reached the end of their usable life. It just so happens that most of the owners of these sites now see a big retirement pot.
Agriculture is doing ok and there are a few diverse horticultural enterprises now in Jersey. Surely it would be better to offer these sites to those existing businesses first to see if they could make better use of them rather than creating more housing.
I can think of at least 4 businesses who if offered these sites would seriously think about taking them on for horticultural use.
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‘Hong Kong has a population density of 6,500 persons per square kilometre whereas Jersey’s population density is under 800 persons per square kilometre (which is, incidentally, less than Guernsey).’
Jersey could never remotely reach anything like the population density of Hong Kong without a massive engineering undertaking.
Hong Kong imports electricity and fresh water from the Chinese mainland and exports sewage etc.
It is effectively an offshore city embedded in the Chinese mainland’s infrastructure.
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Clearly there will be far fewer plant nurseries around in the next ten years. But isn’t this whole issue of creating more housing stock,an outdated policy, which we had been told was to sustain future economic growth to pay for states spending on pensions and health care for our growing aged population? The problem though is that the more you build, the more it creates demand on the future economic internal infrastruture in everything from drains to more schools, pensions and social security.Thence, a never ending spiral of more housing demand. With the fact that low tax regimes around the world face possible sanctions,such as global corporation tax, surely it is a time to concentrate on that threat, which would destroy Jersey’s economy at a stroke and not blindly push ahead with a disastrous policy of expanding our future population with yet more housing, when some politicians in the UK have privately said that they give Jersey less than ten years as an independent fiscal authority outside the EU. What then ?
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More homes on a field near Haute Vallee school- brilliant idea.Queens Road will be at a standstill for even more hours of the day than it is already.I am so glad I now live in England instead of at La Pouquelaye where I lived for 25 years!
In response to David Brown (comment 5)Unless you can afford almost a million for a house a rabbit hutch is all you can expect in Jersey and no you cannot expect to get a wardrobe in to the bedrooms or a dining table in to the “living space”And many years ago I was slapped down by an estate agent who informed me when I criticised the non-existent gardens on a new development that “nobody wants gardens anymore”Really?
As I have said before my husband and I chose to leave and it was a good decision for us but I feel sorry for young couples who would like to raise a family in Jersey and cannot afford their own home or can only afford a cramped little house with no garden or outlook.
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There is no point moaning now about losing greenfield sites, proposals were brought to develop the waterfront with a series of high rise buildings which would have prevented (Or at least slowed down the need for greenfield sites) and it would have been in St Helier so traffic would be less of an issue.
It seems we never want anything that is proposed, we have to face the fact that the global population is growing and we only have a limited land mass, and I believe building up is better than building out………..clearly I am in the minority!
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I’m with Julie#27
I lived in Quennevais for 22 years, but due to total disillusionment with Jersey we moved to England in March 2007. It’s the best decision we ever made. For all those people who get increasingly angry at Jersey’s housing problem – stop moaning!! We all have choices in life, if living in an affordable house with a garden and rooms big enough for cupboards is so important, just leave for goodness sake. There is a life away from jersey you know, and to be totally honest, I would highly recommend it too!
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T B M. You’ve missed Nellie’s point by a mile….either that or you are just an establishment lacky …..either way JERSEY needs to stop this rape and pillage….NOW
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Interesting comments on the housing issue. Go to http://consult.gov.je where you can read and leave comments for the planning dept on the actual draft Plan document….
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We’re told by the States that we need to build more houses, despite having flats that are not selling. Of course, many of these ‘houses’ need to be more flats! One of the fastest growing concerns is the antisocial behaviour of neighbours in flats, a matter on which the States will have to start taking a VERY tough line as failure to do so is already costing the Health Department money.
We already have an ageing population. The ‘solutions’ that are suggested are usually increased immigration or encouraging people to have children. On the surface these ideas might seem fine, but I know many people who, like me, believe they simply postpone the biggest problem while causing even more problems.
Unless our society is willing to take drastic measures and make real sacrifices then our ‘solutions’ will simply create an even larger problem for generations to come, generations that will also be ageing (as medical advances will, most likely, continue). What if their chosen solutions are also immigration and having children?
Populations have regions within which they can be very fragile, the States seem to assume that the solution is always growth, which leads me to assume that there is not one mathematician amongst them.
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TBM reply 19.
I am afraid your figures on population are incorrect. 48 sq. miles is = to 77.24k which is roughly the size of Jerseys area. The population around 90K if you divide 90,000 by 77.24 you do not get 800 people the figure is 1,165.
More meaningfull, I suggest is that France has 7 people per sq.Mile. USA has 6 peop.sq Mile England 381 per Sq Mile and Jersey approx. 2000.
Pip Clement is also spot on, Hong Kong is not an island and is plugged well and truly into a massive land base with services and structure,
As someone said, and for me it is true. Jersey’s beauty is being raped by developers helped by weak Government.
Davey
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NO, NO, NO, NO, NO! This has to stop somewhere or it’ll be another 7 sites, then another, and before you know it this place will look like Guernsey. This HAS to stop. It CANNOT go on!
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#33 Davey, you’re right. I don’t normally comment when some idiot from finance harps on about how Jersey could be like Hong Kong or Monaco (it has happened in comments on other articles). Should they realise that these places are connected to gigantic land masses then they would realise their error I’m sure.
There is a complete failure to realise that there are other islands with similar populations, similar sizes of land, and similar lengths of travel to the ‘mainland’, where people live perfectly happily. Places where crime is lower, pollution is lower and the quality of life is better. Places with a much greater feel of community about them (something that is related to crime levels). Of course the lack of opportunity to earn a 6-figure salary might horrify some people but I consider life to be more important than money.
Furthering my earlier comment on flat. We had the annual meeting for our block of flats last night and it is clear that there is a high level of discontent among people currently living in flats due to bad neighbours, bad design, bad build quality and bad location! And by location I don’t mean the overall area I mean the exact positioning of the building relative to roads, car parks etc.
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“Gary
It seems we never want anything that is proposed, we have to face the fact that the global population is growing and we only have a limited land mass, and I believe building up is better than building out………..clearly I am in the minority!”
Gary, two simple words for you that would save both landmass and money, no need to build anywhere new; POPULATION CONTROL.
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I am so glad I left the island!
I have never read so many incredibly short sighted comments in my life.
I would love to know how many people that have passed judgement, a: have jobs, b: have a brain, c: understand the world outside Jersey, d: understand the concept of an ageing population….just to start with!!
Anyway at least I am one less person to worry about. I sold my place to a couple which means I have aided the housing situation….right??
J
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edwin le goff(14)the reclamation site is quite full now, i was amazed as to how it looks now.
rumour had it that it was only the first phase.
new deep water berths, and a place for large cruise liners,all container traffic down there and more marinas.
all tidal moorings and the port as we know it now recliamed and houses on the land .
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So where would you all like your children and grandchildren to live?
Forget inward migration
We are living longer, and births are higher than deaths, answer on a apostcard please
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“So where would you all like your children and grandchildren to live?
Forget inward migration”
Now I realise what the word “insular” means.
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I say let them build!
As soon as someone mentions ‘new’ or ‘development’ in Jersey everyone clams up, panicks, and thinks the Island is going to be ruined and everyones house prices will fall.
Cohen’s a decent bloke, and not the bad man some people on here paint him to be.
The reality is the population of the earth is increasing, population is increasing in Jersey. Unless you want to ban sex then unfortunately Jersey has to keep building.
Its only an old brownfield site and some fields anyway – who cares. Does anyone actually go there? I think not.
So, stop moaning you bunch of NIMBYS and be positive and instead of saying no, no, no say build, build, build!
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We can’t build houses on any of these sites unless we also put businesses out there! Soon no-one will be able to afford to drive to work but there won’t be a good enough bus service to take them either.
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I don’t blame Freddie Cohen, I blame medical advancements. Keeping 80 year-olds alive is a waste of taxpayers money and causes problems in the long run. If we all died younger, there wouldn’t be a need to keep raping green fields
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Here we go again. More multi millionaires created by the stroke of a planner’s pen. You can bet your hat that some of these schemes will already form the subject of covert planning agreements, which means that objection is a waste of time and due process has been frustrated.
It has been said elsewhere that the system is open to abuse. Doesn’t this bear out that view?
So called “Brownfield sites” provide a means to obtain development permission by stealth. A greenhouse today [which is reversible development anyway] paves the way for a nice, profitable housing development tomorrow………and so it goes on……..and on……..and on……
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I don’t know if Carly at 43 is serious in her comment regarding elderly people but I am sure that many will find it somewhat offensive.
Her view is reminiscent of one of the more notorious policies exercised by the Nazis during the dark years of the holocaust.
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@42 Leah
It is the law of supply and demand. If people are now living on a new estate and want a bus service, the providor will see that there is a demand and will supply a service. The people get a service and the providor gets custom\profit.
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#46, Flymo, that’s great in principle, but it doesn’t stop the fact that buses cannot always be used. Having businesses spread out across the island would be preferable for me. When I move I will be moving my place of work with me, but not everyone has that option.
#37 James, is it possible that you are the one that doesn’t understand the problem? Do you understand that there are no ‘cures’ to an ageing population? Steps we take to help the situation now could simply aggravate the problems faced by generations to come.
While I disagree with the sentiment of Carly’s post (#43) one aspect of what she says is true. Medical advancements will continue and we will cure many of the conditions that currently kill people, needless to say that those people will simply die later of something else. While it’s not wrong to do this we would be naive to think that medical advances are not exacerbating the population problem. My Gran was ‘unfortunate’ in that she was very healthy apart from constant pain from arthritis. She lived to 88 but would gladly have died younger having considered herself to have lived a good life. Instead she suffered extreme pain for years, years she would happily have not seen. It’s fine to live on as long as your quality of life is good but many live on after the time they would gladly have ceased to be.
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Hi Flymo,
There is no supply and demand.
The States of Jersey has a contract with Connex to provide a certain level of service for an agreed fee.
If 10,000 commuters decided tomorrow that they were going to abandon their cars and take to the bus they would be left at the bus stop.
Jersey may like to portray itself as the home of free market capitalism but it is a very restrictive place at the end of the day!
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According to the JEP, lenders are requiring 40% deposits against lending for mortgages. As the average cost of houses is at least 400,000 how many people have 160,000 in the bank for the deposit, let alone the income to pay the mortgage?
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Some people are lucky enough to have parents that have bought a house in the island say 20 years ago.
They have huge amounts of equity in the house so they can help their children out by borrowing against their own home for the deposit so that the children can buy.
Island society is turning in to a grim two class system. If your parents are not part of the ‘magic circle’ your chance of joining is very small.
You are likely to remain poor, live in rented and if you are really unlucky substandard accommodation.
The strange thing is that some of the correspondents on here support this system despite the fact that it excludes them from any chance of a decent life!
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