‘Name and shame criminals from 16’
Monday 19th October 2009, 2:59PM BST.
Senator Ben Shenton
TEENAGERS aged 16 and above who are persistent offenders should be named and shamed, according to Senator Ben Shenton.
In two weeks’ time, the States are to debate Deputy Trevor Pitman’s idea that criminals aged 12 and over should be identified in media reports.
Presently, the identity of anyone appearing in the Island’s courts under the age of 18 is granted anonymity.
But Senator Shenton thinks that Deputy Pitman’s proposition goes too far and instead has lodged an amendment to set the youngest identification age as 16.
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Never mind naming and shaming them we need a deterrant, how about 20 lashes for a start. Anyone remember the 18 year old English thug who went on the rampage in Singapore and got 40 lashes?
Punish these yobs appropriately, they would probably consider being named and shamed a status symbol much like an asbo.
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I believe 16 is a fair age! You are old enough to know what is right and wrong and if you can make the decision to continue to reoffend then you should be big enough to face the embarressment of everyone knowing who you are! I agree that sometimes this gives the minority a “cool” status but for most, the humiliation of having everyone “know what you did” is a good deterant! If kids continue to reoffend then they know they can keep getting away with things and not facing the full punishment of their actions! Being named in the paper is humiliating but if it is going to be in the paper…make sure its in BIG BOLD print so no one can miss it!!!
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Politicians who persistently make mistakes should be named and shamed as well.
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If you’re old enough to have done something bad enough that it warrants a court appearance, you’re old enough to have your name in the paper!
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When I was a lad, a few strokes of the birch would have done the trick.
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When will the authorities in Jersey realise that the only way to stop the downward spiral of crime is to remember that we have given the vote and sexual lifestyle choices at 16. Therefore, these people must be named/shamed and treated with due severity of law, not the namby-pamby system that we allow at the moment.
A prime example is the recently reported rape attack, name this person and make damn sure he is put on a sex offenders register.
I don’t like much about America but agree with their philosophy that if you’ve done the crime you do the time irrespective of age!
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Old enough to vote
old enough to be named
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I agree i believe, especially in the case of this ‘gang’ of 15 and 16 year olds that they have caused enough damage and mayhem between them that they need to be named so that we can be made aware of who these people are and what they are capable. It may also help them realise that they cannot get away with these types of actions even if they are ‘underage’. I agree with Jaime that at the age of 16 it is possible to make sensible decisions about your behaviour without the aid of parents telling you exactly what you can and cannot morally do. I am undecided whether it should be necessary to name 12 year olds, at this point i feel these children, and they are most definitely children at this age are possibly not capable of understanding the full ramifications of what they are committing. In this case it should be down to the parents of these youth offenders to properly educate ones child to help direct their moral compass. Therefore i feel it would be advantageous if it were possible to ‘name and shame’ 16 year olds, possibly extending to 15 year olds also.
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Yes Minister,
1) Negligently expose these youngsters to a system which fails to stop abuse, with no outside strutiny of the system untill HDG;
2) Sit back and let judges hand out sentences which hardly prevent them from re-offending;
3) Fail to offer abused children any proper help
4) Name and shame them and ruin the rags of life they have left forever.
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16years old seems like the right age to have to accept responsibility for your mistakes; but I’d go further and say that from 12years old you get, say, two opportunities to benefit from anonymity, keep offending and you lose the right.
The Parish Hall system also needs to be either done away with or amended(a harder option IMO) so that is doesn’t only benefit the guilty as it does now.
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I agree with Trevor Pitman, 12 and over should be named, shamed and punished. When I was at primary school I knew right from wrong and that is earlier than 12. Are you telling me that kids today are so repressed they don’t know this until they are old enough to leave school, work and vote.
They have sex, drink and take drugs well before 16 so why can’t they be punished. They KNOW what they are doing and laughing in the face of law and order.
A 15 yr old rapist and now these thugs 15 & 16. Kids know right from wrong at an early age….how pathetic to think they don’t know this until they are 16.
More excuses to prevent tackling the problem.
ZERO TOLERANCE is needed now!
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naming and shaming is not a new concept, we used to do it for drunks. The deterent did not work then and the latter did nothing for rehibilitation.
The idea of naming and shaming is a knee jurk re- action born out of frustration. Most profesionals understand that a criminal becomes one through his or her life experiences and this point is often missed. Therefore when a child is convicted does society accept their responsibility for producing criinals. Remeber every child was a babe in arms, what was it that turned him into a thug. This my friends needs some deep thinking not shallow reaction.
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Teenagers who are capable of damaging property, stealing cars, driving while twice over the limit and brutally attacking people, don’t know what shame is!
Therefore, I can’t see what will be gained by printing their names in the paper.
I fear that “showcasing” these villains and publicizing their criminal acts may even increase their importance and firmly establish them as gang leaders.
This “NAME and FAME” method might even strengthen the “gang system”, and serve as a powerful “recruiting-tool” for gangs to increase their rank and file.
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Born Warrior # 13 & gino risoli # 12, I couldn’t agree with you more, I have said this many times in these columns about this issue, it will, as you have put it, name and fame them.
All one has to do is speak to friends etc that live such places as London and ask them their opinion will do about naming and shaming.
Yes these thugs and the gangs that roam our streets, parks, beaches do know right from wrong. We will always have a minority of “children” that will cause problems, this has been going on all over the world for hundreds of years and irrespective of the punishments they could receive.
Is this no different to their so called adult role models that appear under the court listings in the JEP, drunk, DIC, fighting to name but a few – no one seems to comment too much about this behaviour!
I am a firm believer that children have been given too much freedom and power with an attitude of we are the untouchables!
Give some power back to our teachers – who can give out punishments at school, not physical, but verbal without the fear that the teacher will get in trouble or a barrage of abuse from an angered child or parent because someone to dare tell off their little tyrant!
Let’s have a VISIBLE police presence in town for after school/weekends so they can deal with situations of bad behaviour as it happens. Along with school prefects from the different schools where they can tell the large groups to behave, writing down there names of the so called yobs and reporting this back to the school where appropriate measure can be taken and the child explaining him/herself to the head.
For heaven’s sake, are the school heads not ashamed that the children in their school uniforms representing there school are bringing shame on the school as a whole? Bring back detention after school or on a Saturday when it is the child who will miss out on seeing their friends and taking a stance that this behaviour is not acceptable.
Part of the problem though is journalism, the internet etc. It has highlighted and told the world about a few cases of “child crime” and blown it out of all proportion. it is a very small minority that are causing problems such as these, but all children are tarred with the same brush. Very little is mentioned about the good things children do.
A minority of parents need to be accountable to, they do not give a damn what their children are doing or where there are at all hours of the day or night. It is far too common place these days for the parents to take the easy road when their child does something wrong with an attitude of never mind, don’t do it again, now do you want a new mobile phone, game for your punishment.
Parents need to start parenting, it is a full time job in itself you cannot switch off being a parent when you want.
We were all children once, some of us made minor mistakes, but for the majority of us, we have turned out to be upstanding parents and people, with this attitude of some who have commented on this article, we should have all been named and shamed will probable lead to further problems later in life.
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IT WILL NOT WORK
As many are saying here it will only be a badge for the minority of the little XXXXs to wear in front of their peers. It will elevate them to a level where they will be revered by the immature younger members of their gangs
At the moment they cock a snoop at our week justice system, They laugh at the coppers who catch them. they use foul language in front of our magistrates who are trying them, they ignore the staff who have no way of punishing them at the institutions they are sent to, they have no respect for anyone or anything except their own enjoyment.
This is NOT the majority of our youth, its a very SMALL minority, we need to get tough with this cancer before it spreads to the decent youngsters.
J Lamborrari 10
Our Parish hall system works extremely well. many are the kids who have mended their ways after a first clash with authority (they are the ones you don’t hear about), they have been put back on the straight and narrow without the criminal record that could ruin the rest of their lives (no university, restricted foreign travel, etc). Lets not throw the baby out in the bathwater The yobs we are talking about here number no more than 30 according to the police.
We need to target this rotten core and make their treatment a deterrent to the rest.
I suggest an institution on the lines of a Borstal, a regime backed up by the use of corporal punishment. Where this minority are treated as the scum they have become, love and understanding has failed them, hopefully fear of returning to such an institution will have the desired affect.
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Gino # 12. You make some interesting points that shouldn’t be ignored. What you have illustrated is nature – v – nurture and yes maybe society has a part to play in the way these youngsters have behaved.
The nature versus nurture debates concern the relative importance of an individual’s innate qualities (“nature”, i.e. nativism, or innatism) versus personal experiences (“nurture”, i.e. empiricism or behaviorism) in determining or causing individual differences in physical and behavioral traits.
The view that humans acquire all or almost all their behavioral traits from “nurture” is known as tabula rasa (“blank slate”). This question was once considered to be an appropriate division of developmental influences, but since both types of factors are known to play such interacting roles in development, many modern psychologists consider the question naive – representing an outdated state of knowledge.[1][2][3][4][5] Psychologist Donald Hebb is said to have once answered a journalist’s question of “which, nature or nurture, contributes more to personality?” by asking in response, “which contributes more to the area of a rectangle, its length or its width?”[
I feel the majority of youngsters are well behaved and do not get into trouble. This may be due to the way they were brougt up with good role models etc., etc.
We can not just ignore the bad behaviour of the youngsters highlighted in this article, this should be sorted out be the Courts and then either the Probation Service or H.M. Prison. I doubt if they are named or shamed that it will make much difference, thay will probably like the idea of being infamous.
Maybe we should put some of these fellows in a boxing ring to see how they’d cope with someone of their own size and strength, with the ability to fight back – lets see how brave they are then.
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Bring back the BIRCH!
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Name and shame them and also name their sad excuses for parents.
I have no sympathy for these feral scum.
I was serving my country in a war zone when I was one year older than these wastes of skin.
I come from an area in the UK that had a lot less going for it than Jersey does yet I decided to do something with my life, why can they do the same?
Because as a society we pander to these youths and look for reasons why the poor darlings have turned out this way. What a load of bollocks. Make them accept responsibility for their crimes and make sure the punsihment suits the crime. An adult offence deserves an adult sentence.
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Maybe he forgets that the recent alleged rapist is only 15!
Of course, if everyone under the age of 16 that committed a crime was dealt with in such a way that the public were completely safe from them then no naming would be required, but this is not the case. A 12-year old may not be able to decide on the morality of tax evasion but they are old enough to know that violence, sexual assaults and criminal damage are wrong.
By all means don’t name a 12-year old for shoplifting, unless they prove to be a persistent offender in this area (in which case shops need to be able to bar them), but name them for more serious crimes because they will get out of jail at some point (if they go in the first place) and we (the law abiding taxpayers that pick up the tab for these losers bad choices) have a right to know who we need to watch more carefully and who we need to keep our friends and family away from.
As has recently been made clear in the press by many prominent names, the justice system needs to get back to prioritising the public and their safety. Criminals (even including 8-year olds) made their choices, we made ours, WE deserve safety and wellbeing, THEY deserve suitable punishment.
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If certain kids are willing to act outside the accepted laws of society then being named the in the JEP, something a normal member of society wouldn’t want, shouldn’t really be a bother to them? If you’re willing to steal a Porsche or put a scaffold pole through a window then I would assume having your name printed in a daily newspaper would be the last of your concerns?
Naming these kids will primarily impact their future employment potential which won’t actually be that useful for the rest of us. Unless Jersey introduces capital punishment, which I’m pretty sure wont happen, we’ll be stuck with these idiots for at least another 40 years as they struggle to be integrated into society and most probably turn to more serious forms of their current activities to get by.
All parents across the island need to be held responsible for the upbringing of their children until they are of an age where they can fend for themselves. Come down hard on the parents of these troublemakers and they will soon fall in line. Don’t, however, name and shame a misdirected child that in 20 years will be an adult and a much greater problem for all of us.
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How about getting these young offenders to pay for their crimes though work in the community.
I’m sure the citizens who have been wronged by the criminal actions of a few can find them some unpaid work such as painting, cleaning etc to do.
If not, then the States should be able to find something for them.
Make sure it is hard enough that they will think twice before commiting another criminal act.
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Gino’s entry at # 12 should not be ignored as he is pointing out the nature versus nurture debate. This concerns the relative importance of an individual’s innate qualities versus personal experiences in determining or causing individual differences in behaviour
The problem now is how to we prevent further problems occurring. I doubt if the offenders highlighted in the above news item, were named and shamed, that they’d worry much – they’d probably be pleased to be infamous.
Robust action needs to be taken by the Courts, but then the probation service needs to look at ways of preventing similar behaviour by these individuals once they are released from H.M.Prison.
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When a child is constantly in trouble with the authorities it is obvious to me that the parent(s) for one reason or another no longer has control of the child. The State then needs to take this controlling role and hence the responsibility for the child and their actions. Horse and stable door comes to mind here!
I saw a wonderful documentary a few months ago where youngsters were taken out of their local environment and given a chance away from peer pressure to overcome their insecurities.
I know that in days gone the Constable of the country parishes would get troublesome children in his area to come and work on his farm. In many instances the child was turned around because they were given (supervised) responsibilities and hence developed self-esteem. Without a child having respect for themself they will not respect others or property. We in Jersey need to give the delinquents the chance to experience and gain self respect so they don’t just have to follow the crowd.
This is a great opportunity for the Constables of the country parishes to resurrect their past successful actions of giving placements and opportunities for these children to work on a farm; learn responsibility and hence gain self-respect.
What might initially be seen as a punishment could lead to a reduction in “animal” behaviour from the youths of today.
Respects for others needs respect for self. Respect for self is gained through responsibility
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I believe that if you are old enough to commit an adult crime them you are old enough to be named
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Simply put these offenders in bright orange overalls with their crime written on their backs and make them clean gum off pavements in the middle of town.
I doubt they would be in a hurry to re-offend.
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I would just like to say that the law does not allow parents to discipline their child, several weeks ago a friend of mine was called as his son was in trouble at the weighbridge, he drove down their but his under age son was drunk and refused to go home, he tried to physically move him into the car but was told by the police that if he did so and his son resisited he could be done for assault, so he had no option but to leave his drunken teenager or risk being charged…….the world has gone mad
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#23 Paul, we couldn’t do that anymore cause all adults are presumed peadophiles until… Well there isn’t really any until, you either prove the authorities right and go to jail or you die simply having lived a life where you didn’t do anything to harm a child, of course had you lived a week longer there would still be the assumption that you might harm a child.
#21 and 21, I agree with many things you say. Naming and shaming will work for some but we would have to be able to trust the courts to discern if it might make the overall situation worse. However, naming alone is important for society since we are not properly protected. We need to have the right to be able to protect ourselves and that is aided by knowing who to be extra-vigilant around. WE are the ones that should matter most.
In all situations the criminal should pay back society. Be it through community service (my prefered option) or purely financially, jail alone is not enough frankly.
There was an interesting documentary on recently from a youth detention centre in the States where sentences were less relevant and kids actually worked their way through levels proving that they were suitable for release. It wasn’t a softly-softly approach, the slightest disobedience and they immediately dropped down the levels, and if you were told to do something there was no argument. It required consistently obeying authority and cosistently being calm, collected and productive, over a long period of time! The return was getting an education and maintaining better contact with families. The system certainly seemed like one that should be considered for all forms of prison, juvenile or adult.
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@ PJG #15
J Lamborrari 10
“…Our Parish hall system works extremely well. many are the kids who have mended their ways after a first clash with authority…”
Any system that offers the guilty a chance to ‘get off’, while forcing the innocent into having a record of being charged(thus effecting their later lives) is *not* working well.
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Keith, there was an American teenager a couple of years ago in Singapore who got the lash for spitting in public. I felt that a bit harsh for that behaviour but fines for spitting might work. It could also be the first step in the “broken window” approach to policing whereby if you crack down on low level behaviour, you cut off more serious offences.
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The point that i was trying to make is that society has a mindset of judgement and does not take responsibility for what happens. When we teach children that recyling is a good idea then build an incinerator to burn everything, children get confused. When children watch people starving to death in other countries, children get confused. When children hear that some old people die because they cannot afford electricity to heat there rooms, children get confused. When we prefer war to settle our differences, children get confused. When we do not enough to stop climate change, children get confused. Shall l go on.
What children observe is that society does not care and that we live in a survival of the fittest era. Children simply emulate what they see not what they are told.Nothing exists seperate from anything. No its a case of the king is wearing no clothes but no one is saying.
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J Lamborrari #28
“Any system that offers the guilty a chance to ‘get off’, while forcing the innocent into having a record of being charged(thus effecting their later lives) is *not* working well”
I fail to understand where you are coming from !
Who is guilty and getting off with it ?
And who is “forcing the innocent into having a record of being charged” ?
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25 Jub………..I couldn’t agree more!! Talk about humiliation!! I doubt any yougster would want to re-offend after the pure embarressment of their mates seeing them in scraping cr*p of the high street!! They’d definately get a cool staus after that!! NOT!!!
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Leah Holmes #27
An interesting idea, no fixed term to the punishment, only release if one responds to the program.
BUT
what do you do if they are persistently violent and uncooperative while on the program, give them a life sentence. Like all of this type of program a degree of cooperation is necessary to make it work ?
I still firmly believe that in these minority of yobs the only thing they will understand is the fear of pain, “corporal punishment” administered under strict control.
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If certain kids are willing to act outside the accepted laws of society then being named the in the JEP, something a normal member of society wouldn’t want, shouldn’t really be a bother to them? If you’re willing to steal a Porsche or put a scaffold pole through a window then I would assume having your name printed in a daily newspaper will be the last of your concerns?
Naming these kids will primarily impact their future employment potential which won’t actually be that useful for the rest of us. Unless Jersey introduces capital punishment, which I’m pretty sure wont happen, we’ll be stuck with these idiots for at least another 40 years as they struggle to be integrated into society and most probably turn to more serious forms of their current activities to get by.
All parents across the island need to be held responsible for the upbringing of their children until they are of an age where they can fend for themselves. Come down hard on the parents of these troublemakers and they will soon fall in line. Don’t, however, name and shame a misdirected child that in 20 years will be an adult and a much greater problem for all of us.
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26 Gary – Your friend is part of the problem. He quite clearly cannot control his own child and leaves him there drunk as someone elses problem.
I’ve never heard such tosh, is his son the man of the house now? What example has his father set to him? Pathetic.
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Put the kids and the parents picture in the JEP center pages for all to see, with there names of course. Im sure the name and fame attitude will soon dissapear when the parents cant walk down the street without people saying, “there the couple who can’t bring up a child properly”! Remember this the law is there to protect the victim not protect the thug that had disregard for there victim. People getting beaten by groups of kids, allegedr rape by a 15 year old, whats gong on! people cant say the states are doing something about it because from what i can see there not. You also have to remember a lot of these problems are not even brought to light and are kept very hush hush.
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Naming and shaming the chidren will not solve this problem.
This is a knee jerk reaction. Whats next public hanging, public stoning? To hell with it lets hang, draw and quarter the children and stand around laughing whilst they die.
I really want to know what the European Court of Human Rights has to say on this, it is a blatent breach of Human Rights and Im surprised at the ignorance / arrogance of Shenton for even suggesting this proposturous idea.
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Sir, I totally agree with Deputy Pitman, name and shame those who break the law the way these youngsters did will be a good move, But I also say that because of all the ‘ do gooders ‘ out there, that have pressed government to stop parents chastising our children is at the grass roots of the vandalism problems that society has inherited these days, {Please don’t get me wrong here, I do NOT condone bashing seven bells of hell out children,) but mild chastisement at a young age used to be enough to control them, kids these days know that parents aren’t allowed to chastise them any more, so these kids can now do what they want, say what they want, to any one that they want, knowing full well that all they will get is a slap on the wrist. Name and shame them at 12, lock then up for the maximum time allowed, take all privileges away whilst inside prison, let them serve the time in the old way, not in the modern prison hotels they have now.
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Football pitch upon gas place carpark give the kids something to do.
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gino risoli 30
The assumption that we must always provide motives for criminal behaviour, is in itself a motive for crime. Being allowed to blame someone else diminishes the responsibility of the perpertrator of any criminal act. And, let’s be honest, if incoherence and social “unfairness” were truly to blame for juvenile delinquency, then the majority of teenagers would be affected, and that is not the case.
For some teenagers criminal activity is a way of life, a full-time role, even
a “profession”.
I’m not talking about mischievous teenagers who make the odd mistake…I’m talking about “little villains” who commit serious crimes (as mentioned in the article).
This type of deviant behaviour occurs when the bond between the individual and society is weak. But this weakness cannot be blamed on the “confusion” caused by bad example, as in most cases, these individuals don’t have the slightest idea of what is going on around them.
A more plausible reason is that they are free from attachments, aspirations and moral beliefs…a “detachment” which began in the cradle.
Their unmotivated viciousness is the result of this “detachment”, and if they are to be saved from themselves (and innocents are to be saved from them), they must be duly punished and reconciled with society…and the younger they are when the reconciliation process starts, the greater the possibility of its success.
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@ PJG #31
I don’t want to stray too far off-topic; but because a Centenier can’t make a judgement of innocence, a person claiming to be innocent has to sent to court; in doing so he’s charged and that charge is on his record, and must be declared to insurers/employers etc. if asked.
A guilty person can admit guilt and be sanctioned with no charge.
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After their name has been in the paper then what??
They will be escorted to Greenfields, which is in a way is a holiday camp for some…
When i was younger i had friends that would be remanded up to Greenfields quite frequently, they didn’t mind, and it was better than at their own homes e.g. having a playstation and arguing with their parents a lot.
Or even if they had been remanded up to La Moye it’s basically the same story. They know they will be fed, have a bed to sleep in, have friends always there etc…
And these “friends” who have always been in and out of greenfields/ la moye are in la moye now. That just shows that they want to be up there, when they are let out they will go on a week/ a few days bender rob a store or a house or something and then just be put back up there. There is no justice in this island.
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The recent article in the JEP (19.10.09) with regards the naming and shaming of teenage criminals is long over due. I fully support Senator Shenton and Deputy Trevor Pitman in bringing forward a proposition to name repeat offenders. More parental education is vital if we are to stop this new wave of teenage offenders. I must say at this point that it is not fair to tar all teenagers with the same brush, because they are not all the same. The vast majority of them are hard working at school and enjoy their leisure time just as we did as kids. As always it’s a small minority that attract the most attention, and it’s these offenders that I’m talking about.
It has been documented on more than one occasion that these teenagers have become “The Untouchables” and regularly commit offences in the knowledge that nothing of any consequence will be done about their bad behaviour.
It is time that the States of Jersey made it very clear to these teenage terrors once and for all that violent and anti social behaviour will not be tolerated and will be met with the full force of the law.
And yes that means locking them up if it will protect decent law abiding members of the public from verbal and physical assault from these young thugs.
Even if it means changing and creating new laws to deal with these “Untouchables” it is time that our government stopped shunning its responsibility to the public of Jersey and dealt with these offenders with the tough hand that this situation needs, and not the softly approach that I feel has been the cause of this current situation.
A perfect example is the present case of two teenage boys who escaped a prison sentence after brutally attacking a man last Christmas and then went on to commit a string of offences around the Island.
In the case of an habitual offender Jersey should be introducing laws that exist in countries across the world.
Habitual Offender laws are statutes enacted by various governments worldwide in which enhanced and exemplary punishments are awarded to repeat offenders. They are designed to counter criminal recidivism by physical incapacitation via imprisonment. The nature, scope and type of these statutes vary.
Several state governments in the United States have passed laws which require the state courts to hand down a mandatory and extended period of incarceration to persons who have been convicted of a serious criminal offence on three or more separate occasions. I fully agree with this principle.
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james e # 36, lets hope you never have to go to court for something, DIC, drunk, no TV licence etc. Your attitude to this would work so for you and your parents then?
Are adults deterred from committing a crime? They know when they go through the court system that they will be named in the JEP, yet they still commit the crime, is this not naming and shaming, has this worked and do we not see repeat offender on this section of the JEP time after time?
100’s of years ago, if you were caught stealing, your hand was chopped off, did this put off the thieves, no they still carried on stealing despite knowing the consequences.
The majority of parents bring their children up very well, set boundaries etc, yet some children still manage to get into trouble despite all of the parents best efforts, do these “good caring parents” need punished to?
It is a minority that cause problems, no different to when we were all children and no different to when our children will have their own children, there will always be a few bad eggs.
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Darren,
I think you are missing the point, or do you think that all criminals come from poor families with no morals, his son like many many others had got drunk whilst under age he went to pick him up as soon as he found out (this was circa 9.30pm) and was told by the police if he didn’t leave he would be arrested!
The world has gone mad, do you know that if a fight breaks out in a secondary school play ground the teachers call the police as they could be charged if they touch the boys (or girls) who are fighting, there is no discipline because we live in a society that is over protective, if you raise your hand to anyone you can be charged, if you try and lock your child in the house he can call the police and have you charged……..like I said the world has gone mad!
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I think we need to allow some discipline in our homes without fear of the police knocking the door, teachers should be able to man handle children if the situation dictates, in the news the other day (UK) a 70+ yr old woman was charged with sticking her pointed finger into a teenagers chest, she was taken to court and fined, why did she do it, because he was throwing stones at her windows and trying to intimidate her, he got nothing she got fined….enough said!
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#33 unfortunately they fall into the adult system if they fail to secure release, but the system does seem to be working fairly well.
Some adults in today’s jail will never have had to respond to authority, will never have been shown proper behaviour and received appropriate punishment, and the current system doesn’t appear to teach this in any way. Yet, to succeed outside jail these people will need to respect authority of some sort.
There will be those who will always be a danger to society, if the only answer is to keep them locked up for life (even if they are a teenager) then I don’t have a major problem with that since the law-abiding citizens welfare should come first.
Would be good if we could get in early (i.e. from birth) teaching proper parenting, stopping junkies and alcoholics from having children until they stay clean, and also find a way to encourage and help kids find their talent, but I doubt we’ll see that in my lifetime.
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#38 Maverick
By ‘chastising’ children, I assume what you actually mean is ‘hitting’ them?
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#46 Leah: ‘There will be those who will always be a danger to society, if the only answer is to keep them locked up for life (even if they are a teenager) then I don’t have a major problem with that since the law-abiding citizens welfare should come first.’
I have a problem with locking someone up just in case they commit another crime. How would you decide whether someone will always be a danger? What about habeus corpus?
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J Lamborrari 41
You are wrong in all 3 cases.
First, in that it is central to the topic that in many of these cases the Parish Hall enquiry is the first taste of justice youngsters experience, the way this is handled can have a lasting effect on youngsters, as I have stated before many is the time youngsters are put back on the straight and narrow at Parish Hall stage, its when it fails we start to see the likes of these yobs appear.
Secondly,
A Centenier can make a judgement of innocence.
A Centenier “before” charging must first satisfy him/herself that the accusation passes the evidential test and then that it passes the public interest test. If it does not he/she will refuse to charge, this results in the person receiving no record ( found innocent according to the evidence presented ? ).
What you are getting confused about is, “AFTER ” first charging a person, not before, (this is not a plea bargain)A Centenier can only deal with the case (fine / sanction, etc) if the person admits the crime, if they do not the case must be sent to court for a magistrate to rule. The Centenier has made a judgment of innocence or guilt prior to charge, the not guilty plea going to court is to stop the Centenier being judge jury and executioner.
Using your logic a magistrate cannot make a judgment because it could be overruled by an appeal court.
Thirdly
A guilty person cannot admit guilt and be sanctioned with no charge
A Centeniers sanctions are controlled by AG directives and statute. There is also the so called article 89 which sets out circumstances where a Centenier “after charging” has no option but to send the person to court.
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PC, What would you do to put kids off getting into crime and the parents taking no responsibility for there kids actions? Its a pass the buck society where everyone blames someone else for whats happened, this does’t find a solution for the problem, I was a teenager once, as we all were, and i had the attitude i don’t care! but i would have been really upset if my parents were brought into something i had done and that would have put me off doing it again. my parents would have given me a hiding! responsibility, manners and life starts at home not on the streets.
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#26 sounds like he needed to do the disciplining long before now. It starts in the cradle (well it should anyway!)
Your specific story sounds like one of those situations where a sensible policeman would have used some discretion, ‘turned a blind eye’ and backed up the father (as long as the father used force simply to manouvere rather than to strike the child).
Would they rather the drunk child had stayed out, wandered onto the road and been killed by a car?
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#18 Well said, specifically the punishment fitting the crime. Age has far less to do with it than our justice system makes out, serious crime, serious punishment (regardless of age).
#44 I’m not sure you read the same post by Darren as I did. Unless there are some extreme circumstances surrounding your friend’s child’s behaviour then something went wrong years ago. You suggest that plenty of 15-year olds get drunk underage, actually lots and lots of 15-year olds don’t so why is it that they don’t? There is no more for them to do than there is for these other brats? As for bringing money into it, kids of rich people are often less disciplined than kids of poor people. Money can’t buy you class or values.
It’s excuses these days, excuses, excuses and more excuses. It’s never the parents’ fault or the child’s fault… except it actually is! The sooner we realise that the better.
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Naming & shaming is no deterrent as most of these youths, their friends & associates all know who is involved.
I think most people are missing the point of why are these youths getting into so much trouble, is it because they don’t know any better, have no regard to the law because they know that they can push it to the extreme or just the fact that they are bored.
Personally I think it is the latter as there is very little for them to do, especially in the evenings & weekends.
May be we should be think about spending some time visiting the schools & talking to all age groups to find out what interests them & if it is possible to start a programme involving these kind of activities which would keep them active, happy & out of trouble.
I know that the good old States of Jersey would find some excuse like cost to put hold to any such project but if you way the cost of investigating the crimes committed, court hearings & punishment supervision I think that it could almost pay for its self, anyway if was to fail it would be for the lack of trying, so when you here all the complaints stating ‘they did because there is nothing for them to do’, we can turn round & say we tried, they were not interested so it’s their fault not societies, also if the States were to turn round & say we have no money for such a thing a fair response could be do we really need a town park at the moment because if nothing is done to prevent youth boredom it would just end being vandalised & we just go through the whole vicious circle again.
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James e
The majority of kids are polite, well behaved and do not get in to trouble that warrant the intervention of the police or courts. The majority of parents do care and bring up their kids very well, it is a minority you are looking at, 30 or so children out of 1000′s. A small minority of parents don’t care either, aren’t they worse yet their children behave better than they do. The majority of parents do take responsibility for their children’s actions when they have done something wrong make amends with the people they have wronged.
What would do with our adult population that behave in the same way, drunk, fighting vandalism stealing, some of whom are the same ages as you and me?
I like you, would get a good hiding by my father if I done something wrong when I was a child, I learnt that “bad manners or behaviour” was not acceptable. Yet I knew of another child punished in the same way who constantly was in trouble – the hidings didn’t work from him, and he today is still going through the courts at 40 + years old.
Yes everyone is passing the buck, yourself included – you blame the parents. It is not always the parents fault; it is the child that has caused the problem and no one else.
I agree stricter punishments should be allowed to be given both by parents and the courts (if it has to go that far) – but again there will always be a minority that will always be in trouble no matter what sentence or punishment is given. What do you do with them? Still name and shame them as this has clearly worked.
Everyone seems to think that the problem is caused by a majority of children; I think a little research on the statistics might help.
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@PJG #50
“…You are wrong in all 3 cases…”
Firstly; This thread was not about the PHE system specifically.
Secondly;
“…A Centenier can make a judgement of innocence.
A Centenier “before” charging must first satisfy him/herself that the accusation passes the evidential test and then that it passes the public interest test… …found innocent according to the evidence presented ?….”
The decision of whether he is likely to make a successful with the evidence before him is not a judgement of innocence, it’s purely a judgement of the evidence.
From ‘The Jersey Law Review, February 2004, EVALUATING THE ROLE OF THE PARISH HALL ENQUIRY – Peter Raynor and Helen Miles’
“…The Centenier is required to adjudicate upon the facts of each case and decide whether or not it is in the public interest to prosecute the offender… …If the attendee does not agree that the facts of the case are an accurate representation of the incident, the Centenier is required to remand the case to the Magistrate’s Court for trial. The Centenier is not empowered to decide guilt…”
If I’m confused than I’m in good company with the authors of the above report, and the Centeniers I’ve spoken to on this very subject and the Lawyers I’ve spoken to… or could it be that you’re confused??
“…Using your logic a magistrate cannot make a judgment because it could be overruled by an appeal court…”
How on earth do you get to that assumption from what I’ve said??
Thirdly;
“…A guilty person cannot admit guilt and be sanctioned with no charge…”
What I meant by a charge, was a publicly recorded charge, or a criminal charge; one that might be required to be declared on a job application, visa or insurance forms etc.
Think of two people accused by a SoJ Police Officer of not having car insurance;
The first didn’t buy it to save money – he admits this and the Centenier sanctions him with ‘words of advice’.
The second pleads innocent, and offers paperwork to prove it; the Centenier can’t make a judgement of guilt/innocence and has the Officer’s testimony as evidence; so he charges the man to court; the court finds him innocent, but he still has a charge to declare on every insurance form and job application.
That is NOT a fair system.
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Drive past a certain remand home every day with my kids. Always standing outside smoking and chatting are a group of kids in designer clothes. My kids ask “why don’t those kids go to school” My reply is “because they are being punished”. Yeah right.
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I think we should take a tip from the americans and make them walk up and down the precinct on several saturday mornings with a sandwich board stating ‘i am a thief/vandal’ etc.
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The vast majority of law abiding public want these untouchables locked up and dealt with as harshly as possible. Why on earth do the powers that be just ignore the majorities feelings.
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J Lamborrari #50
Firstly. It was you at #10 who said “The Parish Hall system needs to be either done away with or amended (a harder option IMO) so that is doesn’t only benefit the guilty as it does now.” I took that as inferring these yobs we are talking about were the guilty that were benefiting.
Second
In your post # 41 “a Centenier can’t make a judgement of innocence”
In your post # 56 “The Centenier is not empowered to decide guilt”
Two completely different things, which one do you mean?
The Centenier is not empowered to decide guilt for the reasons I said in #50 to stop the Centenier being judge jury and executioner, You could probably view the magistrates court as an appeal court for PHE, The Centenier after reading statements, listening to the accused, who is under caution, and has then made the decision that there is enough evidence to prove the charge, he/she MUST THEN charge the accused. If the accused does not agree they can proceed to court to prove innocence or they can admit guilt and at the discretion of the Centenier receive PHE fine / sanction, OR STILL BE SENT TO COURT. Any Centenier who says to an accused after being charged, “if you admit guilt “I will give you a written caution but if you say you did not commit the crime I will take you to court” Is acting beyond his/her remit and would be taken to task by the AG.This is not a bargaining session, someone who admits guilt will not be uncharged just for that reason. But the Centenier IS empowered to not charge in the first place if the evidential or/and public interest test is not passed, because they have been accused by a police officer is immaterial.
Thereby if a car driver who has not produced his insurance to the police station after receiving an RT1 is requested to attend PHE (note requested one is not summoned to attend PHE one can completely bypass the PHE system if preferred) accused of driving without insurance (this is a common occurrence, ask your Centenier chums) At PHE the driver produces a valid insurance certificate for the dates required. The Centenier will mark the case for no further action quoting that the driver is innocent of the accusation, certificate seen. The driver receives no record of being charged with driving without insurance, he has not been charged!.
Thereby making your statement,
“The second pleads innocent, and offers paperwork to prove it; the Centenier can’t make a judgement of guilt/innocence and has the Officer’s testimony as evidence; so he charges the man to court; the court finds him innocent, but he still has a charge to declare on every insurance form and job application.” A load of tosh!
A Centenier who took drivers to court charged with no insurance who were obviously insured would soon feel the lash of the magistrates tongue.
I don’t think Peter Raynor and Helen Miles are confused I think you are quoting them out of context, and confusing yourself.
Thirdly, speak to your Centenier chums, a Centenier AFTER charging with no insurance, according to article 89 “MUST” commit the case to the magistrate court.
Your confusion is a common one; it’s all to do with the time line. First accusation, second charge, they have different rules governing them.
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What I’d like to know is why Senator Le Marquand isn’t doing anything about youth crime since this was a big item on his mandate – so far there has been absolutely no action from him whatsoever!
Was he just after the prestige of being the Home Affairs Minister and is now happily resting on his laurels?
The very least he could do is show his support for Deputy Pitman’s proposition and then maybe the “old boys club” would take heed for a change.
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@ PJG #60
“…Two completely different things, which one do you mean?…”
They are not completely different, the Centenier can’t judge somebody guilty or innocent, he can only decide whether there is enough evidence to be able to prove a case. If he decides there is then the person has to either accept guilt, and be dealt with by way of sanction or ‘charged’ and sent to court, or he pleads innocence and there is no option but to proceed to court.
“…Thereby if a car driver who has not produced his insurance to the police station after receiving an RT1 is requested to attend PHE… …accused of driving without insurance… …At PHE the driver produces a valid insurance certificate for the dates required. The Centenier will mark the case for no further action quoting that the driver is innocent of the accusation, certificate seen. The driver receives no record of being charged with driving without insurance, he has not been charged!…”
I wish I had you as my lawyer, you could have explained this to the Police, the Centenier, the lawyers and finally the magistrate when the opposite happen to me recently.
“…Thirdly, speak to your Centenier chums, a Centenier AFTER charging with no insurance, according to article 89 “MUST” commit the case to the magistrate court…”
Again I wish you’d explain this to the Centeniers etc. who disagree with you: since my run in with them when they all got it wrong and charged me when I said I was innocent because they were confused and didn’t understand it as well as you do that they could find me innocent. A friend of mine was correctly accused of failing to have insurance, she accepted guilt and got a sanction at the PHE without being charged and sent to court.
I was innocent, yet have a charge I must declare; she was guilty and does not.
Us arguing over our understanding the fine technicalities of what is meant by ‘charge’ is pointless, as even amongst the Police, lawyer and centeniers there is a difference of opinion. This proves my point that the system needs re-thinking, as it can’t be fair if not applied uniformly.
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Nellie Macon
Why should Senator Le Marquand suport Deputy Pitman’s proposition if he like a lot of others dont think it will work ?
Perhaps you should talk to his mummy and get her to make him toe the JDA line
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If you are old enough to commit a crime intentionally then you are old enough to be punished
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63. PJG
If you were at the hustings you would have heard Senator Le Marquand state on at least 12 occasions that he was going to sort out youth crime. A couple of months ago he again made the headlines with the same statement. The question I am asking is “What is he doing about it?”
At least Deputy Pitman is doing what he said he was going to do as part of his election pledges and that was to take action with regards to the youth of Jersey.
Obviously naming and shaming isn’t a magic pill that is going to resolve this situation but if it deters even a few that will be a few less to bother everyone else!
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j Lamborrari
Firstly did you produce a valid insurance certificate at Parish hall before being formally charged, some don’t attend PHE and appear surprised when they are then summoned to court through the post. If not, then the Centenier was correct to take you to court.
Even so I have heard of charges like this where innocence can be proved immediately by a piece of evidence (valid insurance certificate ) “being withdrawn”( again no charge, no record) on presentation of the evidence, at the front door of the court so to speak.
Your friend. If she attended Parish hall and the evidence proved she was without insurance she could only receive a sanction, written caution, deferred decision, etc before being formally charged. (a repeat of the caution and words similar to I am formally charging you with,blah blah blah.)if the public interest test was not passed.
Remember a Centenier can refuse to charge even if the accused is insisting on being charged!
Only after formal charge can the Centenier decide to fine instead of going to court, but as I said before “no insurances” is governed by article 89, A Centenier cannot fine for this offence, it MUST go to court, guilt admitted or not !
I hope this helps to allay the fears stated in your post # “only benefit the guilty as it does now.”
If you have been treated differently from what I have said above, you have been wronged
and should you still feel hard done by as far as your PHE was concerned you can always complain to the Police complaints dept, the committee des Chefs du Police or indeed the AG.
The PHE system (and Centeniers )is not perfect but what is the alternative, Fixed penalty notices where you have no choice but to go to court to prove your innocence, the . The Howard league for penal reform had high praise for the system, and indeed said the UK could benefit from a similar body.
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Nellie Macon 61.
The teenagers in question (and their gangs/followers) have serious issues with society, therefore, cannot be treated as “normal” individuals who understand shame.
I believe that this “NAME and FAME” approach is very dangerous (as I mentioned at 3), and will increase “Gang Pride” and trigger off a “Beat that!” attitude amongst gang members.
Furthermore, no matter how hard I look, I cannot see what will be gained from “threatening” to put the names of these “disturbed” teenagers in the paper…or maybe I can…could it be that someone is looking for votes?
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Nellie Macon #65
“The question I am asking is “What is he doing about it?”"
He is doing what he was voted in for, To make a decition on the facts. Not to make a knee jerk reaction to what some think is a poorly thought out proposition, by a bunch of left wingers who have clubbed together because none are thought to be a good enough voice for an island mandate !
“Obviously naming and shaming isn’t a magic pill that is going to resolve this situation but if it deters even a few that will be a few less to bother everyone else!”
But what if it becomes a badge of honour and increases the problem !
And lets be real here, If you want to know who are the dastardly 30, “ASK ANY SCHOOLCHILD” !
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I thought everyone pretty much knows who they are anyway. It took me about six months of living in Jersey and a couple of run-ins with them to work out who they were. Its not a big place.
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I have never heard so much nonsense written in this forum. There is no excuse for a person feeling bored whether young or old. Voluntary work with those less fortunate members of society would be a good start. Boredom is a form of selfishness that’s all.
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@ PJG #66
“…The PHE system is not perfect…”
Clearly, as none of the system as you describe it worked and or was understood in the way you do by any of the police officers, centeniers or their legal advisors. So a system that is so completely either misunderstood, or corrupted as the PHE is less than worthless in my opinion.
The last three PHEs I know about through close friends or myself have all been handled in ways that do not match you description of proceedings.
“… but what is the alternative, Fixed penalty notices where you have no choice but to go to court to prove your innocence…”
A far better system that that currently in operation(note: ‘in operation’ not on paper). I had no choice but to go to court under the present system.
As far as making complaints; not everybody has the resources to do so. I don’t, but I made a complaint weeks ago anyway; to date it has seemingly been ignored.
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68 – PJG – Senator Le Marquand has done nothing to counteract the problem with some of our youth – whether he supports Deputy Pitman or not – he still has done nothing and he’s had ample time to set something in motion.
As for naming and shaming being ineffectual – living opposite a housing estate that has its bouts of youth disturbance you would be amazed at how worried some of these youngsters get once you know who they are and where they live – part of their bravado is due to their anonomity but once they lose that then some of them slink off away from the crowd if you name them – so don’t think this proposition is going to be totally ineffectual – not all the troublemakers are hardcore – a lot of them are hangers on and will be put off by this stance if it gets passed. There are still those amongst them that don’t want their parents knowing what they get up to.
Deputy Pitman is well informed regarding youth behaviour, having been a youth worker and I have certainly had my share of experience with problem youngsters since I moved into this area too and I believe this will deter some of them. We have to start somewhere with tackling this problem and this is as good a place as any.
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#70 Well said Ann!
I’d add laziness in there also.
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J Lamborrari #71
If you attended a PHE accused of not having insurance, then attended at the requested evening, saw the duty Centenier, and produced an insurance certificate valid for the vehicle, driver and dates required, only an idiot would have sent you to court.
If “Ordered” to PHQ to produce this document within 7 days and you did not, you would have been requested to attend a PHE accused by the SOJP of driving without insurance. If you produced said valid certificate at PHE you should not have been charged with driving without insurance, You could have been charged with failing to produce the document within 7 days (a separate offence, but still a charge for your record). If you failed to attend the PHE when requested the accusation would have been referred to court where a Centenier would have prosecuted you for driving without insurance. You have not said at what stage in these proceedings you “did” produce the documents, if the first time was in the magistrates court, then the Centenier was correct in charging you, you would have had plenty of time to obey the orders of the police officer, and had only been wasting everybody’s time.
“I had no choice but to go to court under the present system.”
I cannot understand why, if you produced the documents at PHQ why you were requested to PHE in the first place ? Or why if you produced the documents at the PHQ you were charged and warned for court.
If you failed at these two chances you had to prove your innocence, you would have been the engineer or your own problem, what do you expect?
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Nellie Macon #72
These youths you are talking about on your housing estate are probably not the 30 or so scum who we are talking about (I “have” had dealings with them,some of their parents are even scared of them)), If as you say “you would be amazed at how worried some of these youngsters get once you know who they are and where they live”
Get one or two of the hard core there wearing their Name and Shame badges the ones you are talking about will realise its nothing to worry about. The 30 then becomes 60,so on and so forth.
Its a knee jerk reaction from a politician who has not properly thought it out.
Senator Le Marquand has had a lot of dealings with these scum and will, I am sure back any proposition that stands a chance of actually succeeding. At the moment I assume he, like a lot of posters on this site, do not think it will succeed.
Now, if Pitman, your son and co really want to do something about it ( a real vote winner this one)how about a proposition to bring back controlled corporal punishment.
NO thought not.
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