Schools ‘failing problem pupils’
Wednesday 28th October 2009, 3:00PM GMT.
Education Minister James Reed may be recalled to give evidence to the panel
SECONDARY school head teachers could be forced to explain why problem pupils and their parents are being ‘badly failed’ by the system.
This week it has been claimed in a Scrutiny panel hearing that the suspension policy of schools in the Island is ‘flawed’ and now the panel wants to hear from head teachers directly.
And if they refuse to attend the public hearing they could be subpoenaed by the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny sub-panel. The JEP has also learned that Education Minister James Reed and his director Mario Lundy could be recalled to give evidence to the panel.
Last week both the minister and his director attended the Scrutiny hearing to give their views about the suspension policy. They admitted that there was a breakdown in communication between schools and parents when students were suspended but said that the new draft policy would improve the situation.
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Sounds Like another attempt by the failed politicians who make up scruitny to take over the running of the Island. Hope someone puts them back in their box wherre they belong!
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They are being failed by the system that was implemented by the States!!!
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How are the teachers to blame for problem children, surely that’s the parents responsibility.
If you bring your kids up properly they won’t be “problem children”.
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This is yet another case of passing the blame from perants to schools and back again. Good morals and respect for others should be taught by the perants, there is nothing more to conclude.
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All lines of communication are open – the telephone was invented a very long time ago.
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#3 Sure enough Keith. If this is anything like in the UK the teachers will get all the blame and they will just be told they are responsible for these kids (no matter how bad their behaviour).
This will ‘hide’ the problem nicely enough for the States, but will result in the well-behaved kids having even more of their education disrupted.
How about teachers AND the police meet with the parents of these difficult pupils and MAKE them realise that their child is their responsibility and that their child will amount to nothing if they don’t start parenting it properly. Force them to homeschool if their child is suspended from school.
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What a load of rubbish.
Give some powers back to the teachers, it is the childs fault if they misbehave in school and no-one elses.
Our teachers do a wonderful job, hence the excellent GCSE & A level results we get in Jersey.
Makes you wonder why they bother to continue teaching with this atitude that these so called know-it-alls report!!!!
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PJ – I totally agree that in 99% of cases our teachers do, indeed, do a great job. The fact is that the system may very well be failing many of them too. As I have already said, we do not want to see situations where the education of 29 students in a classroom is suffering because of one disruptive pupil. But equally as important we do not want to see instances – and I have learnt of a number already – where a ‘disruptive’ pupil is actually a young person with learning and/or medical problems that have not been picked up as they should. We need to look beyond symptoms to what is actually causing such behaviour. We also need to look in depth at the issues of parents – where they aren’t doing enough and where they are not getting enough support from department and States. As for Tricky – actually it is simply called doing the job Scrutiny is meant to do. Where anything in all of this is failing we need to identify this and make recommendations to try and put it right.
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Yeas give teachers power to restore order. My son goes to a secondary school where 90% of the kids are well behaved and are there to learn. Every day their lessons are disrupted by unruly pupils and they can miss most of the lesson whilst order has to be restored. Punish these people and put them all in another school with some serious discipline. I feel so sorry for teachers, it must be the most stressfull job going, especially with no power to control these kids.
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Instead of secondary school head teachers being forced to explain why they are failing problematical students, should it not be the problematical kids being forced to explain why they are disrupting the education for 95% of students who want to learn, and their parents being forced to explain what they are going to do to support the schools in trying to change this?
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to Dep Pitman, if the cap fits…sadly scrutiny do not underrstand the difference between idenifying failings and making recommendations and dreaming up policy suggestions to foist on the council of ministers which they were not good enough to be asked to join! Eg depositors compensation scheme……. trying to find imaginary faults in our education system which do not really exist to justify their existance
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There are students placed in all state secondary schools who through no fault of their own cannot access the day-to-day curriculum. This maybe because of learning and/or behavioural problems. There are major issues in all state schools with reading ages, numeracy levels, support for students lack of English, ADHD, Aspergers, the list goes on. Money has been cut back for secondary education in ‘efficiency savings’ by the States for several years now and alot of support these students used to get to help them manage mainstream education has been cut back. This idea that GCSE results are above the norm in the UK is such a red herring. If you are going to add private schools into the mix, where an awful lot more money is sloshing around, smaller class sizes and an entry exam to sit before you can get a place, it’s not suprising that our results as an island look good on paper. If you looked at the state secondaries by themselves, this would paint a different picture. The vast majority of teachers in these secondary schools are doing the very best they can with the students they teach, but the town schools in particular have to deal with so many difficulties beyond what the States seem to be willing to recognise. I’m glad that these issues are finally airising, but the answers are not easy and there is no magic cure. Speaking to teachers, parents, headteachers is certainly a good start. They are the only ones who actually understand what is going on.
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@tricky
If the state secondary system is so good why are 40% of students privately educated in Jersey.
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Primary schools are the same.
Kids not getting the education they deserve because of 1 unruly child.
This is a fact.
The teachers cannot do a thing because of the nanny state.
There are children with huge problems which stem from home not getting help. The other kids in class then do not learn due to the teachers time being taken for the duration of the lesson trying to keep order because of one kid.
Get policies changed now.
@ Deputy Pitman, this has been known for years, stop talking about it and get it done. Good to see some politicans on here using their own names and trying to answer questions though.
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Well done Trevor Pitman for getting involved on here…..politics is ALL about being in contact with the electorate….doesn’t it just stink that the last thing some of our representatives want is people contact…..we need properly representing by proper people.
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#12 well said.
However, many of these issues could be picked up by attentive parents before a child even reaches school, and certainly during primary school years. Maybe if we could take away more of the stigma around learning difficulties parents would feel more able to discuss their concerns with family and friends, or vice versa? Society is keen now to integrate kids with learning disabilities into mainstream education. I am all for that but ONLY if it actually IS the best provision of education for the child. If we do a thorough study and realise that it is hampering the kids’ education then I think ultimately their education has to come first.
There is at least one school in Scotland that has a learning disabily unit which is kind of like a separate school except it shares grounds with the mainstream school and joins in most social classes/activities (like sports, crafts, outings etc) where the kids are considered able to do so. This way they get the social aspect of mixing with kids in the mainstream school but without their own specialist education being hampered.
As for language difficulties, I hate to say it but there simply isn’t enough money to cater for every language. Maybe Jersey needs a mini-international school where kids new to the English language go to learn English intensively before they go into general education, thus not disrupting the other kids’ education. Once in the mainstream school they could get some extra support to catch up (since they would have English now it would mean they could get the support from the teacher of that subject). Not ideal but better than the current situation surely?
In reality it is maybe time to make parents realise that if they are going to move somewhere with a different language they owe it to their kids to make learning that language a priority, so that their kids’ education is affected as little as possible. Regardless of folk’s views on people coming into the island learning English, this is about the kids and knowing the language is clearly the best thing for their education.
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Tricky – Shame you are so shy you have to hide your real name. I’m afraid you clearly know very little about the Scrutiny process – you aren’t one of those ‘successful’ politicians who became Ministers or Assitants, are you? If you cannot recognise that even on the evidence so far there are quite clear failings within the system then you reall must be living on another planet. Even the Minister has already acknowledged this. But hey…why not show us all how it should be done and stand for election?
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Most of these unruly kids are just downright bad it has nothing whatsoever to do with medical conditions as somer people suggest. Restore discipline and respect now before we sink to the levels of UK inner city schools.
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Dep Pitman.. Sorry to disappoint I am just an ordinary elector with no axe to grind other than the good goverment of the Island.
As far the scrutiny process is concerned I know what I see and hear….
Watch out though you may find me standing next time
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Dave 14. Yes 40 % of kids are educated privately in Jersey. That does not mean the private schools don’t have their share of nightmare kids, it’s just it’s kept quiet in fear of upsetting fee paying parents.
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Deputy Trevor Pitman #17
Having a little trouble with criticism are we ?
Try standing on your own and not as a one of a set. Maybe then “you” will be considered one of those ’successful’ politicians”.
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Unruly pupils should be removed from the classroom. Why should all students suffer a lesser education because the teachers are spending all their time giving attention to idiots.
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PJG No. 21. Oh dear, so now politicians should not work together. Strange how just about every successful democracy in the world has political parties, isn’t it. You really should stand for election PJG – I’m sure you would go far within our ‘Tax, WAste & Overspend’ Establishment ‘Party’. If only more people worked together then the quicker some of these problems becoming evident within the educattion system, as just one example, can be put right. As for criticism, I am happy to take it as the truth is that you really can’t win in this job as you can’t keep everybody happy in every situation. You might also notice that unlike you I am happy to come on here without hiding my identity. What have you got to hide?
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#22 Our education and justice system have become far too entrenched in the issue of helping those who cause the trouble. They have completely forgotten that their duty is to ALL, including the majority!
When I was at school the move was to help the less able pupils, unfortunately this was done at the detriment of the more able pupils, in the end we were left to educate ourselves as the lessons were slowed down to the rate that we suffered from severe boredom.
We do have a duty to help the trouble makers and less able kids but this must be done in a way that does not harm the education of the majority.
If a kid’s behaviour in school is criminal then we owe it to them to involve the Police and drive home to them AND their parents the path that they are heading down.
No excuses!
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Deputy Trevor Pitman 23.
Granted, you decided to express an opinion, propose your thoughts and take the heat.
And with that, all the “cowardly” moniker users must now scramble away and delete their posts in shame!
I, like many of the responders on this thread, choose to use a moniker. However, I also choose to speak and respond to comments in a civil manner (and not in the easily- vexed tone you adopt).
A name does not build a relationship bridge, nor does it build opinions or ideas.
Agreement with someone’s opinion does not create a bond, nor does it create the foundations of positive change.
So there is no real need for those who wish to put forward intelligent viewpoints and thoughtful discussion to undersign their comments.
Come to think about it….you enjoy a certain celebrity and yet you choose to use your own name, so maybe you could be accused of seeking attention and looking for approval…you see, it works both ways!
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Deputy Pitman asks what anonymous contributors to this forum have to hide.
Well, the data protection commissioner has recently expressed concern at the ease with which historic comments made via the internet can be subsequently dredged up and used against the person who placed the message. That misuse of information [which will often be covert] might extend from the matter of employment opportunities to things like the granting of a visa.
Things like data protection, rehabilitation of offenders and other little matters like that tend to fall by the wayside once a message appears on a public web forum. A search engine can often establish what messages have been placed by whom and there seems to be no time limit on what remains in the public internet domain. As technology advances, the state of affairs can only get worse [or better if you are an employment, immigration or intelligence agent].
That is why most people would prefer to assume a nom de plume.
If one is brave enough to be politician, one would imagine that one has realised that it is one’s job to display one’s views. Fortunately, we mere mortals and serfs are under no such obligation.
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Dear Born Warrior at No. 25. In taking the decision to stand for election I have to say that I never thought about it having any link to ‘celebrity’ though I do take your point. I would say, however, that if that was a person’s motivation for standing for election he or she would have to have a real streak of sado-masochism because it regularly isn’t a pleasant experience when you are only trying to do your best as you see an issue, yet you get slaughtered any way. My issue is really with those who conceal their identity while happily taking a pop at people, often spinnning complete falsehoods (and I’m not accusing anyone here of that), thus denying those who are attacked any chance of adequately challenging such comments. Possibly my view on this arise from formerly being a professional youth worker where an aspect of the work often involves supporting young people to ‘own’ their views and take responsibility for them. I also do find it strange that if one writes a letter to the newspaper you have to give a name and address to prove the comments are from a real person; yet on the web, and we know this happens, the same person can write under countless fake IDs by simply setting up multiple e-mail accounts. Clown Advocate at No. 26 – being ‘brave’ to be a politician…you are probably quite right in many instances, though equally possibly you are also being a bit too kind. I often think that you have to be slightly mad. I guess that at least in an island like Jersey politicians – whatever their left, right, centre political persuasion – are very lucky that at least they don’t have to run the risk of being shot for their commitment to their ideals such as is the case in some areas of the world.
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I do think that you have to have courage to be a politician in Jersey, perhaps more so that in a lot of places because of the intense scrutiny and proximity to the electorate. The latter is of course a double edged thing because it does, in theory at least, assist community democracy.
I remember congratulating a candidate, who went on not to secure a seat, some years ago for having the courage of his convictions. So far as I was concerned, the fact that he stood at all was more important in many ways than the matter of whether he got in or not.
Returning to the present matter, any scrutiny is very important, particularly now that the island suffers from the ministerial system. Any check on that form of absolute power must be robustly maintained and defended.
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I think the following explains things rather well and why things are going from bad to worse. Rather apt if I say so myself:-
An Obituary printed in the London Times
Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.
He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:
- Knowing when to come in out of the rain;
- Why the early bird gets the worm;
- Life isn’t always fair;
- and maybe it was my fault.
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don’t spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).
His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.
Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.
Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn’t defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.
Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement. Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife, Discretion, by his daughter, Responsibility, and by his son, Reason.
He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, I Want It Now, Someone Else Is To Blame, and I’m A Victim
Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing
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There is one very important word missing in this discussion, and that is ‘childreading’.
Teachers do not have time to “read” each child separately, as they are too busy teaching.
Therefore, parents must learn to “read” and understand their children, and teach them to examine and make amends for their bad behaviour and wrongdoings. This is called ‘creating a a conscience’ and is the first step towards a child’s moral development. Teachers cannot be expected to advise and discipline children who lack self-reflection and respect for others.
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Adrian 29.
Very sad but very true. Thank you for sharing.
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No. 29 Common sense was a dear old soul but I’m not so sure about his descendants.
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Deputy Trevor Pitman 27.
The use of the word “celebrity” was not intended as ‘star-system fame’ but as ‘renown’.
And I am quite sure that no-one enters politics for “celebrity”, as we all know, people enter politics for money…it’s a job.
Hopefully, amongst those who take on this job, there are some who do things for the good of the community. However, they should not expect thanks… because it is what they are paid for.
P.S. Thanks for the “Dear”
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Born Warrior at No. 33. I was being polite with the ‘dear’ (replied to too many letters lately) no disrespect intended. As for people entering politics for money, I’m not sure. A cynic might well suggest that some may well enter it to boost their business contacts etc. Maybe some do so for nothing more than money. Personally (and I don’t ask or expect any brownie points for this) I took a pay cut and moved from a career that I had worked long and hard at which also had a decent pension for one with none: so money was definitely not the motivation for me. My final decision was based heavily on wanting to be in a positiion where I could hopefully have the opportunity to do more to tackle the issues – particularly community/youth/social justice related issues – that I felt desperately needed more pushing to the fore.
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Your motivations are honourable, and I’m sure what you say is true. But would you have left your well-paid job if politicians were paid the minimum rate? I believe it will be £6.20 per hour if the 2% pay increase is agreed to…
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Deputy Trevor Pitman #23
Work together, a good idea!
Band together with a common manifesto so as to stifle individuals owning and acting on their own thoughts, NO !
You are paid by us to govern and be seen to govern, for you to post on this site anonymously would be counter productive to those goals.
Because some have valid reasons, unknown to you why they need anonymity it is arrogant of you, to say least, to infer they have something to hide and that their views are in someway inferior.
Establishment party! That old chestnut.
Unlike those tied to the thinking of the JDA some of our politicians have evolved “independently” into like minded thinkers, They unlike whipped party members can vote anyway they think best for the people of jersey without attracting the wrath of unelected paid up members of their club.
You say “just about every successful democracy in the world has political parties”
Yes so do Zimbabwe, Iran and Ruanda, even the old USSR did not do too well under their communist party, or do you think they did ?
IMO Jerseys population is too small for party politics and the polarisation they attract.
And as for
“I’m sure you would go far within our ‘Tax, WAste & Overspend’ Establishment ‘Party’”
That little bit of petulance from a member of the states of jersey I will treat with the contempt it deserves.
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An interesting point regarding politicians and the minimum wage.
Not very long ago at all, States members were not paid at all and there was never any shortage of candidates then.
I am sure that some must have done it for business contacts. One can think of a few names [present company not included by the way] but perhaps the less said on that particular matter the better.
It is uusual and remarkable to be sharing this forum with a politician. Apart from a time a short while ago where I think a member was on [not under his full name of course] I think this has to be a first!
It would be interesting to see who follows Deputy Pitman’s “grass roots” example. And no, I am not a voter in Deputy Pitman’s district, nor do I have any other political interest!
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Clown Advocate 37
There is a long list of States members who have contributed to this site under their own names. Simon Crowcroft being one that springs to mind who has contributed on many subjects.
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PJG
“There is a long list of States members who have contributed to this site under their own names.”
Who are they?
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PJG said re Dep Pitman:
” it is arrogant of you,”
And then we all benefit from a long winded and rambling lecture.
Who indeed is arrogant?
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#35 Good idea for a charity drive “minimum wage day” all pay over the minimum wage (that day) given to charity.
Anyway, back to the topic and #7 hits the nail on the head. When it comes to these reports the teachers’ opinions never come into it. What a waste of a fanastic resource!
I have yet to see a report on any aspect of education or healthcare that comes up with anything that the people on the ground haven’t been saying (loudly) for years, sometimes even decades. Of course the result of these kind of reports is always contradictory to what you hear on the ground since reports almost always suggest what is effectively just hiding the problem rather than actually dealing with it. Dealing with it would require too much work for managers and other penpushers, where hiding it just heaps more problems on the frontline staff!
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Remove the unruly children from the classroom – I definately agree with this. I didn’t go to school over here….I was an unruly child and at the first sign of anyone in our classes being disruptive, we were removed and had to sit at a desk outside the classroom where everyone could see. We still had to do the work, and if we didn’t it was followed with suspension and then expulsion. My mother was summoned to the headmaster more times than I care to mention. It definately didn’t do me any harm and didn’t take too long for me to ‘learn my lesson’ (sorry for the pun!)
15 years on I look back and see that the teachers I hated at the time did only the right thing by removing me. But then again – and in the UK – they had a lot more power to act.
Bring back the wooden ruler across the knuckles I say!
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Gus
My apologies if I appeared arrogant.
My intention was to give understanding why some on this site use monikers.
and as for a “lecture”,again my apologies if it appeared so, if you read post #23 you will see I was merely trying to answer points raised by the Deputy.
(are you a member the JDA ?)
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Queen’s Council Flat #38
OK you caught me out, I did exaggerate.
Not a long list, but dep Pitman is not the first.
.
From memory.
definitely,
Simon Crowcroft,
Stuart Syvret,
and what’s his name who told Stuart Syvret where to go,
Not too sure but think con Jackson and maybe Geoff southern and Wimberley.
And of coarse our regular link to a states member Nellie Macon
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