Cocaine widely used in clubs
Saturday 31st October 2009, 3:00PM GMT.
Michael Gafoor, director of the Alcohol and Drugs Service
A SECRET survey in which swabs were used in pub and nightclub toilets has worried officials that cocaine use in the Island is worse than thought.
Although the results have not yet been officially revealed, spot checks by members of the Home Affairs department are expected to show that the class A drug is ‘widely used’, especially among men aged between 26 and 40.
Swabs were taken from toilet cisterns in some licensed premises during the operation and the results have prompted a call for Jersey to introduce a cocaine campaign to raise awareness about the dangers of using the drug.
It is understood that the campaign could involve asking pubs and clubs to slope the back of their toilets to stop people using a flat surface to snort the drug.
Speaking to the JEP about the survey, which also involved interviews with around 100 Islanders, Michael Gafoor, director of the Alcohol and Drugs Service, said: ‘This survey represents a snapshot of cocaine use in Jersey. It indicates that the drug is widely used recreationally, especially by men aged 26–40.’
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This is worrying, we should of course change the shape of all toilet cisterns to prevent people from using this drug. I recently found my teenage son huddled with a group of people outside a pub, thank God he was only smoking a cigarette, I can’t tell you how releived I felt. I am perfectly happy for him to risk a 50% chance of contracting cancer but if he was taking drugs!!!
I’m not sure this proposal goes far enough, perhaps we should invert pint glasses to prevent alocholism, and remove smokers into rehabilition centres – or is it only those drugs from which we don’t receive revenue that are of concern.
Just say no, unless it’s government sanctioned in which case say, mine’s double and a packet of fags with it.
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In the 1990s the police used to link up with the door supervisors and search people as they entered the night clubs. This was a condition of entry to the premises and if people declined to be searched they weren’t allowed admission.
Also the Jersey Nightclub Accociation used to employ a private security company to be at the entrance with a passive search dog that would search people as they entered nightclubs. Also an another search dog used to check the interior of the premises, to ensure nobody had stashed drugs inside.
Both of these procedures resulted in many arrests or deterred people taking drugs onto the premises.
I wondered if they do this nowadays. If traces of cocaine are found in the loos, then I guess someone isn’t doing their job properly.
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It’s about time they stopped the drugs getting into the Island and stopped warning drug users of the dangerous batches of heroin on the streets. How much does it cost the health service to supply drug users with methadone, needles etc? As a smoker, i wouldn’t mind being supplied with fags from the health service and I’m sure drinkers would like supplied with drink. Why do drug addicts get namby pambied and treated like sick people when all they are are addicts just like me and my fags?
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Cocaine? Jersey? Young men? – OMG!
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“It is understood that the campaign could involve asking pubs and clubs to slope the back of their toilets to stop people using a flat surface to snort the drug.”
This is a ridiculous idea. Not only will it breed defiance, resentment and ridicule among drug users, but it will not stop drug use.
Does this gentleman really think that people will be deterred from using on that occasion because of the shape of a toilet cistern? Has he not heard of pocket sized mirrors, notebooks and other flat items?
Where will the money come from to effect these alterations? Is a toilet modification grant to be proposed next?
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All Jersey bank notes should be made of stiff plastic so they cannot be rolled up and used to sniff cocaine.
The fact that will no longer work in cash machines or fit in your wallet or purse is a mere side issue!
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Tell us something we don´t know!
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5.Clown Advocate, you are right, sloped cisterns alone won’t stop users taking the drug if they are determined to do so. But it does send out a message of intent by the licensed premises.
It’s about making it as difficult as possible to take the drug in your pub/club. Gravelled surface, taking the locks off the doors, removing the top of cubicle partitions, they all do the same thing. Or spray WD40 on the cistern, they don’t seem to like that much!!!
It’s more an exercise in damage limitation rather than trying to eradicate the problem, which is a much bigger and complicated issue.
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I’ve twice been offered Cocaine in the toilets of two town pubs. Anyone who thinks it isn’t a serious problem are fooling themselves. However, far more worrying than that, last summer I was offered Rohypnol in a Jersey nightclub
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How about sloping car seats to deter drink driving?
or sloping rooftops to deter burglars? Oh, hang on, roof tops already slope, don’t they?
how about a sloping bar to discourage excessive drinking?
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Wow – how cool sniffing a substance that, as it is illegal, you have no idea what it actually is – off a toilet cistern. I think I will stick to my glass on red in more plesant surroundings.
The War on Drugs is a total disaster in all countries, unfortunately legalisation can only happen if many countries – say all of the EU agree to do so to prevent everyone flocking to the legalising state. It will have to happen sometime as the drug trade is one of the most lucrative business there is and causes violence worldwide.
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Living in the Channel Islands, I can understand why a lot of people need to resort to out of body/mind experiences in their private lives.
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I live in the Channel Islands and really can’t understand why some people feel the need to get off their faces.
Maybe if they got on and did something constructive with their lives instead of sitting around whinging about how bad a hand they have been dealt, then perhaps they would get their highs in a more natural way.
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Sloped cistern lids…
I would have thought that the coating of urine would have stopped most people.
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As if they were not aware of this going on!!!!! They just can’t be bothered dealing with the problem full stop……Drugs are rife here but the police only do so much…..
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Refuse free hospital treatment to the addicts. let them die in the street as an advert for not using drugs. After all it would be their own free choice to go that way. I am sure the smell of rotting flesh would put most off starting the substance abuse.
More severe penalties for users , If there was not a market for the stuff the suppliers would not have a trade.
If a second hand shop was fencing stolen goods the law would be crawling all over them with harsher penalties than the thieves themselves would get, why, because they are making the crime worthwhile.
The same with drug suppliers and users, its the users that are making the trade attractive, HIT THEM HARD and it may go away.
At the moment the harder we make it for the dealers to get drugs into the island the higher the price on the street becomes. The higher the street price the more attractive it becomes to smuggle in. Its a war that we are defeating ourselves with own goals.
This may seem radical but.
We are not winning the war at the moment are we ?
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pjg; your comment is not so much radical as inhamane and unsavoury.
Anyone who believes that drug addicts choose to live in a particular way must be largely ignorant of the reality of what is a complex medical, social and psychological problem.
One would imagine that your comment regarding users choosing to perish in the streets is something which is intended to arouse comment and one would hope that no right thinking person would truly hold such a view.
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Slope the toilets? That’;s the moist ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Anyone who has had their eyes open to movies other than Alice in Wonderland during the last 40 years will realize that anything from car keys to credit cards will do the trick
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If thats what these guys want to do then so be it. Who am i or the government to tell people what they should and shouldn’t do, There is more of a problem with drunks for me to worry about. People are always going to do these things and its a waste of time trying to stop it because you can’t. Education and getting people out of poverty are a better way of spending the money rather than wasting time and nothing improving. Look at Curtis Warren, the only reason he wanted to hit Jersey is due to the massive amounts of money to be made. Jersey is one of the most expensive places in the western world to buy drugs. This is not condoning drug use but you have to look at facts, More and more money is being plowed into drug enforcment and where are we now? in a worse place than when the drug stratergy started in 1950 America, more people are taking the things and it will get worse. Smoking kills and so does alcohol yet people still do it, worse thing the Government sell it for tax! Makes no sense! Also have these people got nothing better to do than swab toilets! Governments still think Jail is the best way to sort these things out, Education, understanding and an open mind are the best ways to deal with these issues!
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Don’t snort coke. That’s naughty!
Drink lots of alcohol. We approve of that!
Our laws on this are hypocritical and as such they undermine our legal system.
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Big ben #18
They freely chose to take it in the first place, even though its illegal. Or are you saying they were ignorant of the chances of becoming addicted.
I am sorry but its the bleeding hearts who are looking after the users who are the cause of this industry. We need a deterrent to stop more people becoming addicted, and we want the trade to be uneconomical for the dealers to bring it into the island.
If the price is to be “inhumane and unsavoury” so be it. I want to protect the innocent not give succour to those who are financially encouraging the importation of substances that will be encouraging more youngsters on the slippery path
I look forward to hearing your solution
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Michael Gafoor.Head of Drug and Alcohol…..give me a break..!how many thousands a year are we paying this man to come up with such a ludicrous proposal that were it not pitiful would be laughable..sloping toilet cisterns
wait..hang on we could patent and sell this strategy to the World Health Organisation and save the planet from the scourge of the flat bog..who employs these guys…?
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I think someone on this column reads the telegraph
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The war on drugs is a myth….. the powers that be have no interest in stopping the drug trade…. I know it. If the drug trade was stopped completely just think about how much funding the Police would fail to get, how much funding the Customs Dept would fail to get, how many States Depts would cease to exist……..
Belive me, no matter WHAT the powers that be say, the very, very last thing they want to stop is the drugs trade.
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Start giving proper sentences to suppliers and users. A person caught speeding gets harsher treatment in our courts
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The solution: All drugs should be legalised and licenced. Goodness knows how it would be properly done, but I am sure that all the very intelligent consultants which cost this island a fortune could come up with something better than sloping toilets!
Legalisation, although problematic, must be better than the “war on drugs” which has surely and markedly failed and the black market which continues to thrive and benefits only organised crime.
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I can understand the difficulty protecting large international borders from drug trafficking…..but Jersey is an island…..and only 9 x 5 miles??!
There are 2 ways in and out…..air or sea.
How difficult can this be for the SoJ police force to control?
The simple fact of the matter is there is no incentive for them to eradicate it (and they could if they wanted to), there is more money in fining speeders. Besides perhaps it is the drug of choice for some of our more illustrious residents…and why upset them when a few grammes of charlie go down well with a few bottles of Crystal!??
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Have they swabbed the toilets in the states building and if noy WHY not?
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Small scale smuggling is almost impossible to control.
Fly to London, buy 2 – 30g of cocaine.
Pack it in to a condom, heat seal it in to a plastic pack and put it in to a bottle of shampoo.
Fly back to Jersey, no drug detecting dog can detect it so walk through customs with impunity.
Enjoy your Charlie party!
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BS Deluxe (# 28.) Jersey Customs and not the SoJP have the remit to prevent the importation of drugs into the island and as Pip Clement (# 30) rightly points out, it is fairly easy to smuggle in ‘illegal substances’. I do however think a drugs detection dog has got a good chance of detecting such offences at the airport and sea ports.
They way I think drugs are brought in is via the small inlets and coves on the north east coast. It must be easy to hire a boat and do a run from France after collecting a consignment from the Netherlands.
The police do need to be pro active on the street, doing stop and search excercises at the entrance to pubs and clubs.
I don’t think Ivor Biggin’s views ( # 25) on police funding are right; detecting drug abuse is just a small part of policing. I also think if the authorities could, they would stamp out drug abuse because of the harm and impact it has on the economy.
As for Right Wing Not (# 27), if you legalise drugs you’ll be opening a can of worms with other issues linked to health and mental illnesses. Also there would be a bigger issue with people driving and operating machinery under the influence of drugs….not a good idea.
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In response to Blue Knight #31.
Have a look at the Nordic countries policies on drugs…… have a look at the recent experiment carried out in the North East & Bedfordshire. Legalising drugs, if you really want to erradicate the ‘problem’, is the first step. Instantly this dissolves the ‘black’ market, dealers and such, and the crime associated with the drug trade. Secondly, it can be monitored and controlled, no more deaths from poor ‘product’, and thirdly…. taxed. This, in my view, would be the first step in dealing with the problem.
Of course, getting back to my original point, this will NEVER happen. It is becomming widely known if you care to look, that the drugs trade is a HUGE source of income for many Government’s to run ‘black’ projects…. and has been for some time, a source of income that doesn’t have to made public or declared, therefore doesn’t exist……. and the things that can be done with money that doesn’t exist, in themselves becomme project’s or operation’s that don’t exist. What people should do is look at the much, much bigger picture…….. If you for one minute think that a group of people with huge funding that have a remit, that ultimately would see them out of a job if they achieved their stated goals, will persue those goals to a successful end then you are sorely misguided.
Menatl health and illness? Dare I mention tobacco and alchol, even prescription drugs? Oh, State sponsored drug addiction is nothing new………….. believe me, there is NO political or business interest in having a healthy, vibrant population.
As a closing point, I would like to challenge people’s stereotypical view of a drug ‘dealer’, at least in this fair Isle. Pip Clement’s remark is not wide of the mark, a LOT of ‘business’ men flying back and forth between the UK and Europe would be well worth a ‘tug’ in my view……. but, these are just my views.
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Floodlit football pitch upon gasplace carpark give the kids something to do.
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#22 PJ
You don’t have to be a ‘bleeding heart’ to find your comments appalling.
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Blue Knight,
These ideas have been tried and havent worked. there was a massive crack down in the 90s and as the uk goverment said it hasn’t worked as have America most of Europe and africa. If you want a stop search policy in the evenings in town then i believe that if you are drunk in town or drunk in a licensed premises you should then be arrested and told you have to spend the night in a cell, As we all are aware being drunk in licensed premises is illegal too! But they choose to ignore this even though all the trouble in town is drink related.(proven). But you can’t be hypocritical were becoming more aware of the dangers! Ask the states pathology lab how many people die a year of drug related deaths, then compare that with the ammount who die due to drink related deaths. You will be shocked, the only drugs that kill over here are alcohol, fags over a very long time, 20 to 50 years of smoking and heroine.
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Now to some who have contributed to this thread, pay attention now, and write out one hundred times -
“Recreational drug use is NOT addiction”
“Recreational drug use is NOT addiction”
“Recreational drug use is NOT addiction” etc.
And just in case this does not get through to you, think upon
“Drinking and enjoying wine does not make me an alcoholic or lead me to becoming an alcoholic”.
Have you understood yet?
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If customs or the police cannot manage the drug problem then legalise it like alcohol …. just think of the taxable revenue the States could earn ! Perhaps it could be put towards a rehab program ?!
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James e # 35. I don’t believe that in recent years the cops have been as pro active as they might have been in stop and search operations.
I agree with you however on the subject of drunkenes on licensed premises. It is an offence to be drunk on licensed premises and it is an offence for a licensee or his servant to serve alcohol to anyone, or allow them to remain on licensed premises if they are intoxicated.
In the 1990 the cops regularly visited pubs and clubs and ejected drunks and reported licensees who permitted drunkeness on their premises.
I also concede that many more people die from alcohol and smoking related illnesses than from drugs.That is possibly because more people drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes, than take drugs. There is however I believe empirical evidence that some drugs cause psychosis and other mental illnesses. Also I am told smoking cannabis is more harmful to the lungs than just tobacco.
Ivor Biggin # 32. Does your cynicism hold no bounds? I think we will agree to disagree.
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If the states won’t eradicate it then the only option is to legalise it.
Likes others have mentioned it may help raise tax revenue, but also (like Amsterdam) it may create a new type of tourism.
Imagine all the coffee shops that would open…..the odd “space” cookie with our cuppa’s may help to de-stress us all too…..and everyone will stop moaning about every single thing
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Well said Mr Stomach Ache.
There is far too much ignorance and bigotry surrounding the matter of drug use.
In years to come, we will no doubt look back and see how ridiculous it all is. Like prohibition was in America. And that didn’t work either, did it
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Wow. People advocating ‘legalise it, control it, tax it’.
As society/policy has shown around the world, this is the most effective way to deal with the array of ‘vices’ that apparently blight the earth.
Prohibition doesn’t work. It never will. (Feel free to research why certain substances have or haven’t been criminalised over the years. For your health or someone’s profit?).
We all enjoy altering our state of mind in some way. We enjoy it just a little too much to give it up. (I’m an adrenaline junkie, I’m a chocoholic, I’m a stoner).
This is a very pertinent debate at a time when scientific expertise is facing up to political posturing in the UK…
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Michael Neal #33
What I find appalling is the fact that youngsters are being led down this horrific road to addiction by their peers, not by some ogre of a drug dealer who is only supplying their demand. We are fighting a losing battle against the wrong sector. If people did not smoke or drink there would be no tobacconists or pubs. Look at how the percentage of people smoking has dropped recently, how much do you think this has to do with the “appalling” pictures of blackened lungs being shown around and the poor souls talking on TV about how they are dying from tobacco related cancer.
If anyone takes an illegal drug, even once, it contributes to untold human suffering not only to their self but to any other who gets caught up in the evil, and we look on and say “don’t worry we will look after you when it goes Teats up” IMO we are contributing to the problem in that it only makes it less worrying to take the first step.
The idea of making drugs legal IMO is good one, a new approach that may work. One only has to look at alcohol and tobacco and think how bad that could be without the controls legalisation brings. Only problem is unless its worldwide the good intentions will be doomed to fail through outside misuse.
So Michael Neal, I stand by my comments, if you are appalled take a walk through London’s subways in the early morning and look at what these substances do, Then you will understand what appalled really means, can you think of a better deterrent to youngsters starting this suicide than what I have “appallingly” advocated ?
If not then return to your insulated box and read fiction if the facts upset you so.
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Stomach-Ache #35 Tim Leary’s brother #39.
Being so learned in the matter, can you pass on to me a mere mortal when a
First drag of splif
becomes
recreational use
becomes
addiction
becomes
horrible death ?
You could save a lot of lives with this information
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OK so Mike Gafoor is just doing his job but the article and the attempt to dress up this research into something substantive is utterly ridiculous. We dont know who the survey was aimed at or the numbers involved but my guess would be that, get this, it is existing clients of the D&A service who, by demographic breakdown, amount to less then 5% of the total population.
I am a very occasional recreational drug user who has lived in Jersey most my life but I know the scene well and I am very confident about stating that Cocaine is not currently a big or destructive influence on our society and that this feature just smacks of another civil servant trying to get some extra money for the empire.
If you want to tackle the social problems associated with the two most destructive drugs in Jersey, namely herion and alcholol, then the COM needs to start drafting in some social policies aimed at bringing those members of society that have drifted away back in from the margins. And you could start by sacking Gafoor and putting his salary towards some proper research. Sheesh!
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Slope the toilet cisterns? Not really the most cost-effective way of solving the problem in these times of recession. Do what a lot of places in the UK do who also suffer from this problem. Wipe Olive oil on top of the toilet cisterns. The oil disolves the drugs….dissolved drugs = no drug= no problem.
Or…search everyone on entry to the premesis.
Simples.
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PJG #42.
Keep a sense of perspective, and allow any prejudgement you have to be put to one side for a moment, or perhaps even longer.
For by extension of your argument, when does the hand that reaches for a single chocolate biscuit, then lead to the whole packet of biscuits being consumed?
To be then followed by the consumption of another packet of biscuits. And another packet.
With the inevitable outcome of obesity.
Yes, it can happen, and sometimes does happen. Though not to all biscuit eaters. In fact, most biscuit consumers are occasional and moderate in their consumption.
As I originally wrote, make the distinction between recreational drug use and addiction.
They are not the same things.
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PJG,
Recreational use is when a user only smokes a spliff at a party or at a friends house, even if its one or two a night its classified as recreational use.
You can’t become addicted to cannabis in its form unlike alcohol where it becomes a physical addiction, you can have a mental addiction to the drug where if it makes you feel relaxed and chilled out and you enjoy that, Its the same as Coffee, people drink it for the hit it gives you in the morning and the feeling of well being. I know a lot of people who smoke then give up without any physical or mental problems, only one thing happends, a couple of nights after giving up you might have a restless sleep
To my knowledge there hasn’t been a death of a human as a result of smoking Cannabis, that doesn’t include driving under the influence, even death this way is very rare.
There has been a report that a horse in a field in America ate a whole Cannabis plant and died through shock. Animals are afected differently to the chemicals THC (spaced out chemical) and CBD (relaxing chemical) in the plant. One thing to remember is Hops they use for making beer is the same family of plant as Cannabis! look it up its interesting its under hops Sativa.
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PJG, please keep your comments coming. They are absolutely hilarious!
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Nonetheless, it is interesting to see that there are some people out there who still cling to the cliche that drugs are wrong and drug dealers are evil scum. I thought it was only politicians who believed this trite nonsense these days.
When I was at school (in Jersey) in the late 1980s we were doing acid and ecstasy as well as smoking regular spliffs. Most of us grew out of it. A few didn’t and ended up killing themselves but if it hadn’t been heroin (as it ended up being with them) it would have been alcohol. A proportion of young males are always going to self-destruct and to blame drugs would be to blame an inevitable tragedy on a coinciental factor.
The problem with drugs is that they are very pleasant provided you can control your habits. That’s why people take them. And that’s why the argument that drugs are wrong and evil and horrid is counterproductive – because anyone who takes drugs can see that it is a lie.
Must say, the foetus doesn’t go much further than a nip of sloe gin in the bath these days, but each to their own. It’s perhaps a generational thing – and it is not clear to many people under the age of say 45 why drugs should be illegal and why Jersey should pay for the services of Mr Gafoor (the” Gaffer”).
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#41 PJG
I don’t understand how most of this post relates to what I said.
You want a society where we let drug users die in the streets. I don’t and I make no apologies for this. I don’t pretend to know the solution to the drug problem, hence why my post was brief, but I know what solutions I find unacceptable. I find it particularly appalling that these views are being espoused by someone who, according to other posts, is or was an honorary policeman.
Incidentally, my previous job in the UK brought me into regular contact with inner city drug users for more than four years. Please don’t assume that people who disagree with you live in an ‘insulated box’. You don’t have a monopoly on experience.
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Stomach Ache # 35….You keep repeating yourself….keep taking the tablets, taking the tablets.
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Michael Neal #49
Where we disagree is I believe the user is as much, if not more to blame for the drugs problem than the dealer, they are not victims and I unlike you am prepared to use unpalatable methods if it changes things.
The humane care given by us to these people is part of the encouragement the young receive to experiment with drugs, by giving the message, don’t worry, try the drug, if goes wrong we will save you.
I firmly believe the removal of this safety net that masks the wretches drug users become will stop a lot of future deaths and ruined lives.
Please advise me where I have stated I am or were a policeman or woman, honorary or states ? not just an observer/friend of one.
Stomach-Ache #45 james e 46
The dealers are out there to make money. they have been attracted to this island by the high profits to be made from our relatively, disposable income rich society.
Habitual use of cannabis brings with it a tolerance to the drug. The man who sold you the spliff you took to the party will be only too pleased to get you something stronger. Just like your baker will sell you a black forest gateaux when the biscuits fail to satisfy you any more.
If you lie down with dogs you get flees.
The Larkine #47
anything to please the easily amused.
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As someone who works on the drugs and alcohol field, I find this posts very interesting and would like to see more discussions like this on Jersey sites. However I have to say that I am appalled by the comments of PJG. Yes we live in a free society so we can say what we believe in… so I say that is very sad that we still have people who believe on what he is saying! It would be interesting (probably scary) to know what you do for a living!
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#51 PJG
Once again, most of your post is irrelevant to what I said and you make sweeping assumptions about what I think. Where we disagree is that you want to let drug users die in the streets. I don’t.
Re your being an honorary policeman, this is based on posts 50, 60 74 and 75 of the following thread:
http://www.thisisjersey.com/2009/10/19/name-and-shame-criminals-from-16/
In these posts, you describe in detail the process of parish hall inquiries and the criteria centeniers use when referring cases to the courts. Indeed, in post 75, you state that you ‘have had dealings with’ the poorly behaved young people under discussion.
This post, coupled with your frequent advice to posters who criticise the honorary police to join them, led me to believe you were an honorary policeman. My sincerest apologies if you are not.
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Me #52
And your cure for the problem is ?
I believe drug addiction is self imposed, they are not victims, do you ?
Or are you happy in your job tending to these selfish people so they can go out and take some more drugs so you don’t become one of the great unemployed as mentioned by Ivor Biggin #31.
I am appalled by the lack of compassion shown by some on this site towards our future generations rights to make “informed” decisions on things such as this that may ruin their lives.
Lets be honest here, appalling and inhumane as many think it may be (I don’t relish the thought of what we may see either, I just hope the deterrent would be strong enough for it to be short term)to withdraw the money spent on keeping the self inflicted addicts alive and spending that on educating youth on the realities of what happens to them if they take drugs IMO should work, you know save lives. Or do you disagree with that ?
What difference does it make what I do for a living. My thoughts are for the real victims of this evil trade. Those not yet taking the stuff who are being fed disinformation.
I have had close relations to 2 users 1 became an addict and later died the other quit when the realisation of what happened to the first set in, she was lucky she was only on the first step of the slope, a couple of spliffs and the occasional snort at parties.
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PJG
The problems in society caused by drug dependency are a natural progression from the attitude you display. Treat people like scum and they will be.
It is the illegality that gives the frisson – the idea of counter-culture is still very attractive.
Because of your daily mailisms the kids doing the research chems and dope-u-likes are still hiding in the corners not telling folk what they’re up to, and so are in danger of abusing something they’re too scared to talk about.
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Number 51 (PJG again)
“The man who sold you the spliff you took to the party will be only too pleased to get you something stronger. Just like your baker will sell you a black forest gateaux when the biscuits fail to satisfy you any more.”
I like black forest gateaux [sic]. Does that make me a cake addict or just a user?
If you eat black forest gateaux [sic] where it will it lead? Bakers lying deceased in the street as you would like to see?
What does PJG stand for? If it is “please just go” perhaps that would be appropriate in the circumstances
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Lets face it, anyone who takes cocaine is an absolute tosser. Whilst on the drug they are self absorbed, boring, offer pish patter, have zero loyalty to friends and end up requiring hand holding when their egos reach their zeniths. i.e. bunch of losers.
Any recreational druggies what to disagree with that…
so how to help these fellow islanders kick the habit of being a bunch of losers. I agree with talethebuscuit and big bean and would do more. If you can get a majority of people who dont particularly associate with drugs then users become an insignificant minority, and as one of the kicks of the drug is ego massage, there would be one less kick to take from it.
I think the best leverage from a enforcement is to massively fine any pub/club found with individuals who are in possession of cocaine or are found to have cocaine on their sloped-or-normal cisterns. If clubs are found to continue to allow people in who take the drug, then close them down. The owners are the best people to hit as they are the ones who offer the best enforcement. Individuals should face a £2000 minium fine for first offence if caught with the drug.
I seriously think drug takers dont think they’re doing any harm. Cocaine is one of the most insipid drugs. In Tijuana, Mexico 5000 people a year are murdered over the drug. In Columbia 25000 are kidnapped, upto 7000 murdered each year. Follow the chain and the numbers get bigger, many more lives are ruined because of it.
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Arnald #55
As per usual you have completely missed my point.
I do not wish to vilify anybody.
I just want people to be informed and responsible for their own actions.
Perhaps my suggested methods seem a little heartless, but you don’t make an omelette without breaking eggs.
As I keep repeating we are losing the battle against drugs, otherwise sensible, good, people are dying horrible deaths.
If anyone has the solution to the problem that does not use the methods suggested by me, then please make them known. I would much prefer a more humane solution, IF it works.
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I believe as a normal human being you cant stop the flow of drugs, If you look at egyptian writings the people were eating lotus flower and it was a trade they sold throughout Africa and the Middle East, if you look at the Myans and the Aztecs they were all taking drugs from Cocoa leaves, DMT, Cannabis to Alcohol.
What I am trying to say is for as long as we have roamed the earth people have used drugs in one form or another, its been a part of all cultures to take one thing or another. The sad thing is people think there is a easy way to stop the flow of the drug trade, there isn’t one will be stopped and another will pop up in there place.
The problem is the authorities and there strong stance on imposing jail sentences, this does the opposite of what it’s supposed to do it makes drugs expensive, this in turn makes it more and more appealing to sell, even if you get 4 years for dealing people will still do it, as seen in America and there harsh policies drug dealing has gone through the roof even when they get out of prison they get back into dealing as they now have a criminal record, no job and make good money from what they know best.
There is no easy option apart from decriminalisation! this puts the ball in the court of the Goverment or as here the states. There will be tax to be made to fill the black holes we seem to have at social, as in Amsteram there main trade is Cannabis and makes hundreds of millions every year, The drugs sold will be proper drugs and not as dealers sell fake drugs that do kill, therefore making it safer for the people who want to take drugs, they dont have to see a dealer as this will stop people being in some cases forced to buy other drugs that are worse, for example you have a guy that goes to a dealer to buy as said before a spliff and ending up being forced to buy heroine by threat from the dealer.
Every other option has been tried and the real fact is they haven’t worked. Another example is in Dubai and thiland, its the death penalty for dealing drugs and lots of people still do it and make money goverments could be making to put into other things. Change is a good thing. Look at spain, Calafornia, Holland, Switserland and see how there doing.
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It should be no role of government to tell an adult what he can and cannot consume save where he clearly causes significant harm to society in doing so.
That would limit illegal drugs pretty much to heroin, crystal meth and crack.
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Did prohibition work..no would you get a licence for Alcohol if you’d just invented it now..No.what is our biggest social problem here now….Booze…however Booze dealers are regulated,taxed and quality controlled. either way man will play with mood alterers legal or otherwise, decriminalising it takes the street gangsters out of the picture….but there is no cure….it’s personal risk.seems ridiculous to spend millions of public money trying to stop something that has been around since Moses.in the U.K.between 2000/4… 570 people died from cocaine..200,000 from Booze and half a million from cigarettes…what’s your poison.
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I have been user of cocaine and ecstasy for many years. Probably using it 3 or 4 nights a week. But I’m growing out of it. I have different priorities now, but I do still use them when I fancy a blast.
One reason I don’t use it quite so much is the quality is so unpredictable. Pills containing horse wormer or weed killer, Cocaine containing local anesthetic, worming powder or glucose.
I remember seeing a report of someone being arrested and the coke they had only had 2% cocaine. I’d be more worried about what it’s cut with.
Dealers are their own worst enemies, in attempt to maximise their profit they cut the coke until it’s almost unrecognisable. But I wouldn’t go back to someone who had done that and Jersey is a limited market.
The latest fashion is for legal drugs, such as Mephedrone or as it’s otherwise known Plant Food. It’s effects are almost the same as proper Ecstasy. As far as I know, at the moment, it’s perfectly legal and can be ordered over the net. It’s relatvely new and is described as a “research chemical”, which means it’s long term effects are unknown.
There seem to be more problems associated with so called Legal Highs, people suffering from psychosis and heart problems.
Perhaps, a better approach would be to ban the legal highs and decriminalise Cannabis, Ecstasy and Cocaine. Maybe they should use Mr Gafoor’s department to offer a service where the various drugs could be tested, rather than waiting to for someone to die before they put an alert out in the newspaper saying there’s strong batch of heroine or a rogue batch of pills going about.
Scaremongering doesn’t work I know a lot of well educated middle class people who take Ecstasy and Cocaine. Deals generally aren’t done by 20 somethings wearing hoodies in dark alleys, again another piece of misinformation put out by the press.
I’ve tried most drugs including heroin, but it’s not my thing, I didn’t like that “monged out” feling I can see why people take it offers an escape from the stresses and strains of the world. It is regarded as dirty drug amongst “recreational drug” takers and dealers are regarded as scum.
I don’t believe Ecstasy and Cocaine are addictive. I believe that when people with addictive personalities take it, they keep taking it until it runs out, but they don’t go “cold turkey” when it does run out. They usually have a spliff and go to bed.
That’s another thing, the myth that is put out by the press and the Government that cannabis leads to harder drugs. Is just that a myth. I know people who just do cannabis and nothing else or like me I just do Class A and no cannabis. I don’t regard myself as a cannabis user, because I don’t smoke tobacco, thst stuff will kill you ! I have smoked cannabis on occaision, but again I don’t like that “monged out” feeling.
I thought I’d voice my point of view as a reasonably well educated, middle class recreational drug user. Generally, we grow out of the desire to do drugs, maybe only trying them very occaisionally and instead of persecuting your average user the powers should concentrate on providing a service to determine if the stuff is good or not, before people die from it.
Perhaps some of that £400k they spent dealing with legal highs would have been better spent on providing such a service.
I know this will stir things up but I found it quite refreshing to hear such a converstion from Jersey people, who are generally so old fashioned and anti-drugs.
Be Safe !
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From what has been said here my suggested, let the users pay for the consequences of their own actions, appears to be a little extreme for most, “OK” it was only a suggestion after all.
BUT I think we all agree what we have at the moment is sadly lacking.
What do we do ?
IMO the least unpalatable (and probably only)other suggestion, that stands any chance of succeeding appears to be the “lets legalise drugs” suggestion.
Then as with alcohol we can put controls on at what age you can take the different drugs, how much you can take and still drive ( invent a drugaliser), where you can buy it, what’s a reasonable profit, the competition authority could make sure its done fairly.
Being “spaced and disorderly” or “jacked up and incapable” could appear on our charge sheets, or how about causing death by driving while on a come down.
We could tax it, but would have to be careful we did not price ourselves out of the market. after all most drugs can be bought for 25% of our street price in Liverpool (we would not want smugglers bringing in inferior drugs cheaper than our state approved prices and of inferior quality).
Probably the tax we collected would not be enough to pay for the education and medical care it would cost us for the inflated population of users we would attract. Its not like alcohol where the majority of our neighbouring countries have a similar stance, we would be the drugs capital of Europe, even Holland where some drugs are still illegal would pale into insignificance alongside our free thinking island.
HMM, difficult problem isn’t it.
Maybe we are just better off bumbling along as we are now ? paying for our addicts to die in the privacy and comfort of our overstretched hospitals, keep the problem hidden.
But most of all lets not use these inevitable deaths to dissuade our youth not to start in the first place.
Spannered #62
Brave post,
I think you are looking through rose tinted glasses, but thanks for an interesting perspective.
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The Larkine #56
Your wit is astounding !(again)
Perhaps if you used your obvious(?)intelligence to think up a solution to a problem that leaves horrible deaths in its wake you would be of more use than just taking pops.
A correction to your post. Its not the baker who dies, he gets your money and lives happily ever after.
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PJG,
It’s not complex at all. The reason why drugs are so popular is twofold.
Firstly, they are great fun most of the time (although if you lose control it ends in tears, and if you haven’t grown out of them by your 30s I wonder about your mental state).
Secondly, the profit margins are huge. Weed used to go for £160 an ounce back in the day. i don’t know what the price is now. But cannabis is a rampant plant – in a warm spot it grows like crazy. A single large greenhouse in St Clement could produce tens of kilos a week.
Let’s say there are 5,000 regular users of cannabis in jersey, spending £20 a week on their habit. That is £5m a year and those figures are conservative: we would get drug tourists. Sell it at the current price and it would be virtually all profit for the state. It would pay for a lot of rehab. It would also stop people getting in touch with dealers who might also have harder stuff to sell.
There could be extremely severe penalties for anyone found with non-regulated cannabis. That would largely stop the demand for imported stuff, even if it was cheaper than the taxed version.
A lot of people end up on heroin because they cannot get cannabis. This is particularly the case in prisons, where every crackdown on cannabis (smelly, bulky) leads to an increase in heroin usage (small, clean).
I would personally legalise everything but I can see the argument with starting at dope and seeing how that goes.
As for comments about stopping people driving under the influence of drugs: people already do it and it is already an offence.
The war on drugs was lost in the 1960s: since then virtually every western society has had access to the drugs it wants. The challenge now is to minimise the risks (and costs) they pose to our children and our society. And also, though the current “drugs are evil” policy prevents this by being palpably untrue – to reduce the demand for drugs.
The current system benefits organised crime and nobody else.
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Thinking through my friends I think almost all of them have tried cannabis and a few have tried cocaine, speed and ecstasy.
Assuming that they are typical middle Jersey and that the average States member is similar I would guess that quite a States members have had the odd toke.
Not that one of them will admit it!
On balance I would say that the ones with the worst health problems from their habit are the heavy smokers and drinkers of which sadly there are quite a few.
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PJG I am sorry, I was having a laugh and perhaps I should not have done so. Your expressed views are, however, somewhat ususual, to put it kindly.
The only long term solution to drug use, abuse and addiction [there is a difference between all three] is legalisation.
Yes, it will be difficult, but at least it would be licenced, the drugs would be of pharmaceutical grade and the taxes raised could be used to police the system and to treat addiction.
What would be the benefits? Well, the drugs culture would, overnight, lose a lot of its rebellious, cool image. And then there would be the obvious blow to organised crime.
Any prohibition brings a thriving black market. That is the result of any underground activity. At the moment, the matter is swept under the carpet. That approach has been proved not to work and never well. Why not ask someone qualified in the field to do a consultation? I would imagine that Professor Knutt (I hope I have spelt that correctly) would be a good choice.
Best wishes to all!
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Legalise cocaine and source itfromgovtcontrolled plants and you may take out the chain of violence and murder going back to Mexico and Colombia. I think the problem is that most countries would have to adopt the same approach to decimate the illegal markets. Jersey has a very bad problem with self medication, the drink problem here is as bad as Scotland. Given that, I’m in two minds whether legalisation would help. It may just encourage more people on this rock to seek oblivion from the daily grind in a different way.
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I quite agree with 67, legalisation is the only way forward. However, I don’t think Jersey would be able to do this without the lead being given by the UK and possibly the rest of the EU.
Otherwise we might have even more people flooding here to get their supplies!
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PJG, have a read of the following article
“The evidence from Portugal since 2001 is that decriminalisation of drug use and possession has benefits and no harmful side-effects”
which can be found at
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14309861
It may present you with a perspective that allows for a more reasoned discussion.
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The Larkine # 67, had me thinking there was some merit in his suggestions, but I think if you legalise drugs, you could be opening up Pandora’s Box.
I have recently been speaking to a lady friend who is a Social Worker in the U.K., she told me how she had been to visit a child and that the mother, a supposed ex-heroin addict, wouldn’t let her in the house to look at the child.(She did get to see the child in the end) She told me that the mother looked very ill and was just skin and bone. She added she looked far older than her 30 years and even suggested she looked like she was twice her age – That is potentially what you will see on a regular basis, if you legalise drugs.
As for your arguement that drugs will lose their ‘cool’ image if legalised ; alcohol and cigarettes are legal, yet people still abuse these supposed pleasures.
Finally with regards to Professor David Nutt’s views on the harm drugs cause, I didn’t recall him saying drugs should be legalised, just reclassified.
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PJG, I’m wondering if it was the way your point was put across that was the real issue?
I see a day when we will have no option but to resort to making people pay if their need for medical treatment is self-inflicted. We are struggling to afford treating people who have done nothing to induce their illnesses and it would take a very inhumane person to suggest that such people should continue to suffer while treatment is handed out free to those who have chosen to abuse a substance (legal or otherwise).
Of course, this scenario relies on us being much better at diagnosing mental illness since a lot of people with mental illness self-medicate. I do believe there are people out there who would think twice about their consumption if they were going to have to pay for any treatment required.
I do not believe that the Government have the right response towards drugs, however, for those who are very pro-drugs please go spend a night in A&E (yes, even in Jersey). Please do not kid yourself that it will never be you, even if you are a recreational user a simple change in circumstances could alter that. I’m not saying “don’t do it”, just be very aware of why you are using and if you ever find yourself feeling like you need it then please have a rethink. I believe it’s less likely to happen to you if you are open to the fact that it could and, therefore, are open to spotting the signs that your use is no longer recreational.
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PJG: I can’t believe that people like you exist in the world.. How inhumane
Ok drugs are illegal and people know what they are getting themselves into.
What about Cigarettes and Alcohol, how many people die of lung cancer, liver failure etc a year and the money spent on hospital fees and operation to try and keep these people a live. Ohhhh but that’s OK because it’s legal.. But people who take illegal drugs should be left to rot. Being an addict is an illness no matter what your addicted too. It’s dealing with why they are an addict in the 1st place that we need to focus on.
Every one is entitled to their own opinion but some things are better left unsaid in your case.
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Professor Nutt should be considered as a consultant not because of any views he might hold regarding classification, but because he knows what he is talking about.
Blue Knight; can you see the distinction? That is where the problem lies. A lot of people cannot see the subtleties in discussions concerning drug use.
Your story regarding the social worker is what would be regarded as anecdotal evidence. It would not carry much weight unless properly investigated and documented.
Alcohol and cigarettes have never had the same image as illicit drugs. They have also never been legal. Blue Kinight; can you see the difference here as well?
It is probably fair to say that Jersey would not wish to act before the UK and, possibly, the EU. It has unhesitatingly done so with so-called legal highs though. The “Island authorities” also, apparently, wanted to do so with domestic human rights in 1992 but was discouraged from doing so [Jersey Law Review, February 2000 at 14] ahead of the UK.
No one would argue that legalistaion would not prove to be a difficult undertaking. The alternative, though, reminds one rather of King Canute denying that the tide is coming in and clinging stubbornly to his rock of ill reason while the sea carries on regardless!
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People who use drugs can become ill because of all the unknown agents with which illicit supplies of drugs are mixed in order to maximise profits for the dealers.
The fact that supplies are unregulated, black market items is a very large part of the problem and poses a substantial risk to public health.
If recreational drugs were legalised, the quality of what is taken by users would be supervised and regulated.
The matter of possible legalisation is perhaps most obstructed at a political level. Given the generally conservative and reactionary nature of local politics, it is unlikely that a majority of members would have the courage to bring about the required legislation.
One or two courageous, independent figures spring to mind but it is, unfortunately, likely that a draft paper on the issue would be quickly blocked or marginalised by the establishment. Any member who dared to introduce a bill would not receive the support of his peers and would in all likelihood attract unwarranted adverse comment.
For similar reasons, it is unlikely that any consultant would be appointed, in case his views did not advocate manitaining prohibition. Professor Nutt would certainly not be on any short list, given his ability to form an independent and informed view rather than just saying what the united kingdom government would have liked him to!
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#73 Michaela: ‘Being an addict is an illness no matter what your addicted too.’
While critical of PJG’s views, I’m not sure I agree with this either.
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# 74 the Larkine. I am sure the account about the ex-heroin user was accurate and I doubt that many of the submissions on this site can be supported by ‘investigated and documented’ evidence.
If you have come into contact with those who use drugs, as I did in the past, you must agree that many look ill and like ‘skin and bones’, with palid skin. I doubt very much that drugs do anyone any good.
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Taking drugs on an habitual basis [legal or illegal] does not do anyone any good. It is facile to suggest that the reverse might be the case. Blue Knight, can you see this?
Prohibition makes a bad situation worse.
Anecdotal evidence is just that. The fact that a lot of it is on threads like this does not any more weight to the anecdotal, unevidenced account which you have put.
Blue Knight, please have regard to the benefits of supervised, controlled, drug use. I am sure that this much must be clear to any reasonable person.
Best wishes to all.
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* 77; Blue Knght; interesting logic- what you say is true because, although it is unsupported, lots of other posts are unsupported as well so your post must be correct.
I am sure we have all heard of someone whose uncle’s second cousin’s best friend’s milkman’s wife’s neice twice removed on the maternal side knew someone who jumped out of a window after drinking a cup of tea out of the wrong side of the cup.
It doesn’t mean though that it is anything more than anecdotal though, does it?
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