We must support the war, says Lieut-Gov
Saturday 7th November 2009, 2:59PM GMT.
The Lieutenant-Governor, pictured in his office at Government House
JERSEY’S Lieutenant-Governor has called for Islanders to support the war in Afghanistan and warned that losing the conflict would ‘condemn our children to decades of terrorism’.
In his Remembrance Day message, Lieutenant-General Andrew Ridgway said that Islanders should be prepared to see more ‘Union Flag-draped coffins’ returning to the UK, but should not lose support for troops fighting the Taliban.
Gen Ridgway said: ‘Some describe the conflict in Afghanistan as an unwinnable war.
‘Rather it is a war we cannot and must not lose, unless we wish to condemn our children’s and grandchildren’s generations to decades of terrorism and strife.
‘This really is the defining conflict of our age and the time has come for us to show the resilience and fortitude for which our forebears were once so famous.’
The Remembrance Day service and parade is at the Cenotaph at 10.30 am tomorrow, with the two minutes’ silence at 11 am.
Read the full story in the Jersey Evening Post. Click here for subscription details. Individual editions are also available online.
2012 CYCLE SLAM
Dallaglio Flintoff 2012 Cycle Slam
Read Graeme Le Saux's daily blogs
Greece-London Marathon on a Bike
The Dallaglio Flintoff 2012 Cycle Slam
Travel
To, from and around the Island
Airport Arrivals/Departures
Harbours Arrivals/Departures
Bus Information/Timetables
This is Jersey
Jersey Evening Post
Useful links
Oh come on. Even though most people supported the initial reasons for going over to Afghanistan (9/11 & Al Quaeda) , I think people agree that we now need a much more nuanced and open discussion of the reasons our forces remain over there and whether there are better ways to ensure domestic security than these comments. Our armed forces deserve no less. Many think is simply ungovernable.
Report abuse
I have no intention of supporting the war. It only causes more problems than it can possibly solve.
It incites British Muslims to possible violence in support of their fellow Muslims there.
Before it started the Taliban were keeping the growth of opium poppies down but have now allowed the trade in them to increase.
We were told that the purpose of going in to Aghanistan was to capture or kill Bin Laden. That has been a dismal failure.
The only people to benefit have been those who manufacture the weapons that are used there.
Report abuse
Have we learnt nothing since the sixties, we send our troops into supposed war zones for nothing more than political gain, this particular “war” has been orchestrated by the US with it’s UK lapdog doing exactly what it has been told to do, how presumptuous of US/UK to assume they know what is right for the rest of the world!!!
Report abuse
Terrorism can’t be stopped, all the wars going to do is create more hatred towards “the west”. The problem our children face is climate change and food shortages.
Report abuse
while having respect for our armed forces, who are doing their duty, its not the first time that our troops have been there, back in the 1800s , there was a similar bin laden character, a hill tribe chief, who was never caught , millions was spent, how much that would be today , i would hate to guess.
the russians gave up and left.
there cannot be much left of this country, its being carpet bombed, and now looks to be the worst place on earth.
i agree with with tom(1) the place is ungovernable, and is the modern day vietnam.
Report abuse
…not quite right Mr Ridgway; our children and generations thereafter are already ‘condemned to decades of terrorism and strife’ winning the war in Afghanistan would do little to resolve that. Those terrorist factions that rise out of Afghanistan are but one of the many and varied terrorist organisations that curse the world we live in. Its not just about Muslim extremism you know!
Report abuse
Andrew Ridgway said that Islanders should be prepared to see more ‘Union Flag-draped coffins’ returning to the UK
What a disgraceful comment, that the British soldiers fighting the Taliban are the bravest of the brave is in know doubt, however they have been constantly let down by there goverment in terms of equipment helecopters, body armour, troop carriers that give protection to the troops {not soft bellied land rovers}
Bring all British troops home, strengen the borders of the UK, and protect your citizen at home do not let British soldiers die to support a currupt goverment such as Afganistan has
Report abuse
What a facile remark the Lieutenant Governor has made. British service men and women have no place in Afghanistan, fighting America’s wars, and the sooner they are brought home the better.
Sitting up there, in the comfort of Government House with his lady wife, waited on hand and foot, kowtowed to by everyone, does NOT qualify the Lieutenant Governor to tell Jersey folk how to think or what to do.
The sooner this anachronistic residue of a long-gone Empire learns this, the better it will be for Britain and for the Channel Islands.
The sooner Gordon Brown, and the rest of the UK Government pull out of an unwinnable war, the happier the people of the British Isles will be.
Report abuse
Pro Bono Publico…I could not agree more, to blindly waste lives and money on an unwinable conflict,those who know their history will know you cant treat many tribes as though they were one..even those who live there do not know or define who the Taliban and al Qaeda are..just like no one knew who the Viet cong really were,soldiers one day, villagers the next.warmongers and military types always fawn after the “Cause” which in all honesty is only the perpetuation of their way of life …and why we should pay for his extravagant lifestyle at government house has always galled me..a hideous example of the excesses of a class system which needs to go this is 2009.
Report abuse
I heartily endorse the comments made by ‘Pro Bono Publico’ and other contributors before him (or her). The Lieutenant Governor’s remarks were completely tactless, ill thought out, and do not reflect the views of the majority of the public – here or in the United Kingdom.
General Ridgeway has completely misread the feelings of the public and should apologise.
Meanwhile, British troops in Afghanistan are still hampered in their work by a shortage of the correct equipment for that theatre of war. Men and women serving there still have to shell out from their own money to buy boots whose soles do not melt in the desert heat. They are issued with insufficient quantities of body armour, and what body armour they do get does not match up to that handed out to the American forces.
Our boys are still going on patrol in vehicles that were suited for the battles of Northern Ireland, but which are useless against the improvised explosive devices laid by the Taliban.
General Ridgeley would have done better to devote his efforts to interceding with the Whitehall wallahs to correct all these criminal shortcomings.
I know of what I write; I have lost a grandson in Helmand Province. He was blown up, together with his mates, while having to go out on patrol in a LandRover.
The Lieutenant Governor’s remarks did not make me, or my grieving son and his wife, feel any better nor will they motivate us to support this ill-conceived conflict any further.
Report abuse
We are being asked to support a war that has no clear, achievable objectives. Where is the get out clause? What does winning this war entail?
The invasion of Iraq was undertaken because of non-existent weapons of mass distruction. This crazy war fuelled the growth of terrorist groups.
Without clearly defined objectives in Afghanistan we are fighting a war that can never be won. What sort of festering mess will we leave behind when we eventually pull out and what is an acceptable cost.
Report abuse
Oh, remember when Afghanistan was the “good war?” Of course, if we listened to the left, we’d assume that Islamic fundamentalism never existed before 9/11, that the Islamists weren’t responsible for the chain of events that led to Afghanistan’s invasion and that Afghanistan is being “carpet bombed”. Still, one cannot expect lucidity from that side of the spectrum.
Looking forward to the trial and imprisonment of treasonous 1968ers and their ideological children. And, of course, Gordo Brown, for failing to properly support British forces with decent equipment and spending the country into bankruptcy.
Report abuse
One, two, three what are we fighting for, don’t ask me I don’t give a damn, next stop Afghanistan. Five, six, seven open up the pearly gates, aint no time to wonder why whoopie were all gonna die.
Sound familiar – it’s the sixties again, same old BS.
Report abuse
The illegal war in Iraq caused a 100 times more innocent deaths then all of 9/11. Bin Laden had little to do with Iraq and we fought that country on a false pretence. Had the Americans conentraded on Afghanistan we may have stood a chance. The American people did not deserve 9/11 but their chosen people made a mess of the region before and after. Britian should not have been part of the organised terror in Iraq. Whether we pull out of Afghanistan we should now spend resouces on law enforcement, visa fraud and border control.
Report abuse
Mr Ridgeway..if the shoe were on the other foot you would not like it.. in fact none of the UK would or US.. leave these countries alone.
Report abuse
Magnolia Man 10.
If I believed in god, I would say “God bless you and your family”, and something like “God protect our boys in Afghanistan and bring them home safely”. But I don’t believe in god, so the only thing I can say is that your story touched my heart, and I’m very sad for you, your family and all those families who lost their loved ones in this unwinnable war.
Report abuse
I believe the majority of the British public are against this war as they have been against the invasion of Iraq. I would withdraw all British troops immediately. They aren’t even properly equiped for this type of warfare, the British government can’t even do that for them.
phil in answer to your question if the west carries on down this route I can see Iran being invaded next and all of us sucked into another World War. This one will be the Muslim world versus the west.
Report abuse
Let me get this right An unelected drain on the tax payer is telling us we must support an illegal war. I think this man should leave our island now and put on his fancy dress and lead the boys in this war from the frontline
Report abuse
One of the great films of all times is “The Fog of War”, in which Robert McNamara, JFK’s Secretary of State for Defence and in some ways the author of the Vietnam war, looks back at his life.
The problem with Vietnam was that the Americans thought they were dealing with an idealogical struggle against Communism, whereas in fact, they were in the middle of a civil war. And it seems to me that is where we are with Afghanistan. Of course the Taliban were nasty, and no doubt they were plotting against America and were in part responsible for 9/11. But now, its a civil war. The country is divided along tribal lines and there is no justice, or rule of law. Corruption is endemic and it is hard to see what “success” would look like.
There may be valid reasons for remaining there, and the fact that politicians of all hues seem to agree that fighting is Afghanistan is worthwhile suggests some reasons exist: nobody has explained them to me.
Report abuse
I wonder if the Lieutenant General will bother to comment on, refute, or otherwise publicly react to the opinions shown here?
His failure to do so will be an indicator of whether or not he cares for the people of the Crown Dependency he has been sent to “govern”.
Or perhaps His Excellency only communicates with the “great and the good” of Jersey society?
Let’s wait and see, shall we?
Report abuse
Yeah I will go and fight in a war and lend my support to a war I do not want have never voted for have no power to vote for and after I have been injured I am not covered by the NHS or if I am my children and wife are not covered.
I do not and will not support this war.
I am not one of the “We”.
Report abuse
You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:
We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.
For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!
from R.K.
Report abuse
@12 – Hmmm
An island of nonsense in an ocean of reason.
@10 – Magnolia Man,
I can only echo the sentiments of Born Warrior.
Report abuse
What else do you expect from a military man but to support conflict? Even if it’s a war that can’t be won against a nebulous enemy that can come as go as it pleases over borders into neighbouring countries, regroup and recruit ad infinitum.
Didn’t the US learn anything from Vietnam?
Report abuse
Magnolia Man – words will not change anything, but my heart goes out to you and your family over your loss. I can well imagine the anger and despair you feel over the Lieutenant Governor’s remarks.
We are sending seriously under resourced young men into an out of control country in the name of fighting terrorism.
As others have commented this will be an unwinnable war, terrorism will NOT go away in this day and age. Bring back these sons and brothers, husbands and fathers to fight a more worthwhile cause.
Report abuse
An island of sanity in an ocean of moronic, revisionist lunacy, you mean, unless you consider regurgitating 1960s pop song lyrics and massive falsehoods like “carpet bombing” and “illegal wars” as reasonable.
Only little old Gerzee could produce something as ridiculously simple as “if the shoe were on the other foot you would not like it.. in fact none of the UK would or US.. leave these countries alone.”
Withdrawing from Afghanistan today means invading Pakistan tomorrow. The refusal to see the wider political context is cretinous at best and dangerous at worst.
Report abuse
I know lets just disband our military.
We can then spend the money saved on changing our infrastructure to suit the Islamic fundamentalist state we are bound to become when the terrorists have their way. With our expertise at spending money we could have minarets of world class on the waterfront, and a special wing at the hospital to remove right hands “humanely”
And don’t think they will leave us alone just because we keep ourselves to ourselves.
These fanatics will keep going until we all live as “they think” we should.
Please note I have said FANATICS although an agnostic bordering on atheist myself, I have no truck with the religion of others whatever it may be, so long as it is not thrust upon me.
Yes ,Lieutenant-General Andrew Ridgway
we should support the war in Afghanistan and yes we should remember that losing the conflict would ‘condemn our children to decades of terrorism’.
Report abuse
Soldiers do not join the army to defend the borders of their country; they join to go off and fight wars as far away as possible. War is just lethal foreign policy and is by its very nature political.
As for Afghanistan, it will always be ungovernable but that is not the point we are not fighting in Afghanistan for the benefit of it’s people and whether or not they have a nice cosy democracy is neither here nor there.
Afghanistan borders Pakistan and on the Pakistani side the border region is semi-autonomous and tribal. Even without the intervention of Afghan radicals it is difficult enough to police.
The reason for being in Afghanistan is to prevent, or at least minimise the destabilisation of Pakistan which is a nuclear power with an atomic bomb.
Next door to Pakistan is India which has fought frequent wars with Pakistan and also has nuclear weapons.
If India feels threatened by a radical Islamic Pakistan with nuclear weapons then they might well use their nuclear weapons first on Pakistan; if they don’t we might. The world cannot afford to have nuclear weapons in the hands of the Taliban and would wipe Pakistan and millions of its people from the face of the earth to prevent it. Think what that will do to Islamic sentiment across the world; given our multicultural society (in the UK not Jersey) what effect will that have on the streets of Britain and the rest of Europe.
Like it or not it is time people put two and two together and thought a little more about the consequences of bugging out of Afghanistan instead of this constant short sighted whinging.
Our troops are fighting and dying or being maimed for life trying to keep the genie in the bottle, just remember if he gets out there is no putting him back.
Try for once giving some support to our troops in the job they are doing and stop telling them they are suffering for nothing.
Report abuse
Although I think Gen. Ridgway could have stated views more tactfully, I cannot see any alternative to British troops remaining in Afghanistan, for some time to come.
Whilst I can fully understand the feelings of those who have lost sons, daughters, family members, and friends, I am afraid it would be a big mistake, especially now that the Pakistanis are engaged in a major offensive against the Taliban in the Swat Valley, at considerable cost to themselves, in suffering retaliatory terrorist bombing against soft targets , such as schools, markets, mosques, etc.
If we were to leave now, Pakistani Taliban, along with Al Quaida and other Jihadis would simply slip into Afghanistan with impunity, giving them a base the conduct their terrorist campaign against Britain and the West.
Don’t forget the 9/11 World Trade Center and earlier bombings occurred before there were any British and other Western troops in either Iraq or Afghanistan, and that the prime reason for removing the Taliban government in Afghanistan, was because they were providing them with safe bases, from which to attack the western countries.
Consequently to withdraw from this region now would give great comfort to the enemy; sending all the wrong messages to the Pakistan Government, its people, which may well lead to a Taliban/AlQuaida take over of that country, whilst giving them access to their nuclear arsenal.
The best we civilians can do on the home front is to maintain extra vigilance to guard against radicalised Moslem fanatics in the UK, who may commit acts of terrorism, report suspicions to the police, whilst making clear our support for the service men and women on the Afghan front line.
I for one would not object to paying more taxes as long as we could be assured that any such additional revenue would go towards improved equipment for our troops, along with improved care for the casualties.
No one wants to keep our troops exposed to such danger a minute longer than is necessary for the Afghans to develop their own security forces., but it is better to fight them over there, than over here.
Report abuse
move all our troops out and nuke the whole area. problem sorted.
or is that a bit too extreme?
Report abuse
Boris has written that “Soldiers do not join the army to defend the borders of their country”.
Really? And who DOES ‘defend the borders of their country’, Boris?
Is it the pixies, perhaps? Or should we just trust in a “line in the sand” and try to outstare the oncoming invaders?
Boris, as far as I am concerned, lives in cloud cuckoo land.
Report abuse
There is absolutely no way I will support this war…..it’s not our conflict, it’s the USA’s.
I will, however, support our brave troops in all their endeavours.
What was the famous WWI saying “Lions led by donkeys”…..perhaps the government and military authorities/dignatories should show their support first by properly equiping our boys and girls to do the job!
Report abuse
I think we should support our troops, afterall it wasnt them that made the decissions on where they would be deployed they just want do do a job to help us all.
It is not there fault that in many cases they become cannon fodder for politicians and big business, oil and arms manufacturing, that is governments doing.
We must support our troops in whatever situation they have been placed because one day they might actually be on our shores defending our island/country. Dont support wars is fine and personally i dont but dont blame the troops blame the governments. Support the troops and dont support the govermnment if it is your want not show support.
Report abuse
(26)hmm, are you saying that it was a figment of my imagination, that i watched great lumps of ordinance being shoved out of a hercules type air craft on to the afghan hillside anumber of years ago.
(29) expat bill, i agree.
there has being a lot of speculation on how long the troops will be there, from 5 to 20 years(bbc radio 4)over the course of this year.
another thing if find strange,
is that the moment the uk had paid the last payment to america, for the 2nd world war loan and debit free, next thing the uk are fighting alongside america all over the place.
Report abuse
Magnolia Man
perhaps my post was a little long to take in all at once; so let me break it down into tiny little chunks, tabloid style. war is an instrument of foreign policy simple. if you have to fight wars on your own borders you have failed as things are getting rather desperate. the further away you fight your wars and dictate foreign events the less likely the civilian population of our country is to get hurt. perhaps that ought to make sense now? try reading it all again and you might understand the gist of the issues and not pick on single comments. as for living in cloud cookoo land; does St Helier count?
Report abuse
The military is in Afghanistan because of the British government. They have no choice in the matter, they have to do as they are told even if the choice is mistaken. They are also the ones who suffer the consequences of bad decisions.
How do you think public opinion is going to fare if a big suicide bombing suceeds and say 50-100 western troops are killed in one go?
Boris as far as I am concerned the genie is out of the bottle, let us hope he isn’t on a street somewhere in Britain soon.
I do find your arguments to be a bit odd Boris.
What about all the civilian deaths in Afghanistan don’t they count in your book?
War is not a picnic just because it is fought overseas you know, real people like you and I are dying every day in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Report abuse
And which was the last war you fought in, Boris?
Come back and pontificate when you have some tangible experience of the subject, and not just what you may or may not have overheard in a saloon bar.
Report abuse
if the shoe were on the other foot well how many muslims have you spoken to recently that actually come from these areas and have witnessed the other side of the scale? Typical western greed..hmmm??
Report abuse
USA is the agressor,they started it and cant finish it just like all the other wars they have started and not finished. They only won world war 2 by dropping a couple of nukes. Time to bring our brit boys home and for the UK to tell the USA where to go.
Report abuse
I wish I could be convinced of the imperative to fight the war in Afghanistan, and I suspect a few mothers fathers and children of those brought home dead or maimed will feel the same. I spent 37 years in the military and feel I learned enough about the difference between right and wrong use of military action to know that our presence in Afghanistan, as it was in Iraq, is futile.
Report abuse
Okay, so Boris is in favour of the long-standing American doctrine.
However history has shown time and time again that this does not work.
Nobody has won a war in Afganistan for hundreds of years. This will not change.
Israel has nuclear weapons.
So the best solution would be to:
1. Stop the military manouvers in Iraq and Afghanistan to reduce the huge loss of civilian life.
2. Call the Israelis to meet their UN resolutions.
3. Remove nuclear arms through peaceful negotiation.
Continued prosecution of unsupportable wars will lead the “West” into a downward spiral of wasted opportunities and increased marginalisation of muslims and an inevitable increase in terrorism.
No sane or rational person would want this but then again goverments are not usually either, especially when arms contracts or oil comes into play.
Report abuse
Voice of Reason and others
I suppose if you are talking about the ‘Domino Effect’ which was the reason for American involvement in Vietnam then yes I am in favour of long-standing American Doctrine.
One could even argue perversely that despite losing the war American involvement did limit communist expansion in Asia to former French Indo China, whether that was good or bad depends on your politics.
Pakistan is already fighting a war against insurgents in the Swat Valley and if we pull out of Afghanistan this will make the situation worse for the Pakistan government; if you watch the news they are already suffering suicide bombings in their major cities.
If we pull out of Afghanistan then the major focus of Islamic extremism will move to Pakistan and its government is not strong enough to resist the pressure over the medium term.
If India goes to war with Pakistan on the basis of combating Islamic fundamentalists this may well spill over to the streets of the UK as we have significant populations from each country who still strongly identify with their country of origin.
The partition of India in 1948 saw over two million people killed in inter communal violence, there is no love lost between those countries and any way could degenerate into a bloodbath over there and a tad messy in the UK.
I would reiterate that we are far better off fighting our wars as far away as possible from our home territory. 9/11, 7/7 and the Madrid Bombings testify to what happens when terrorists bring the battle to us instead of the other way around (I was caught up in the latter so believe me it is no fun).
If this is to be a debate about whether or not our troops should be fighting and dying in Afghanistan or elsewhere; then cheap shots about ‘living in cloud cuckoo land’ and not having served my country when that contributor has no idea who I am or what I have done, does not do justice to the lives lost and those maimed in pursuit of a government policy to which I personally can see no alternative.
Whether or not they are properly equipped for the job is another argument and no matter which government is in power the armed forces have always been the best trained and worst equipped army; unless people want to pay higher taxes this is never going to change.
As for whether or not civilian casualties in Afghanistan matter to me, well yes they do in an abstract humane sort of way; but what concerns me more is the safety of my country and my family and the constant parade of Union Flag draped coffins through Wooten Bassett, which moves me to tears every time I watch it on the news.
Yes it would be great if we could pull out of the rest of the world, disband the army, put flowers in our hair and listen to the grass grow, maybe even stand in a field and pretend to be a tree, but life (and death) aint like that.
Personally I can cope with contributors being insulting but it would be far more interesting (and do justice to the gravity of the situation) if those whose postings appear to stop short of reasoned argument, engaged their grey matter and put forward some more coherent arguments for their point of view. Lets face it you might even have a point.
Report abuse
USA has always been the agresser,and blair his mere puppet.
Every other european country turned down their request to go to war in iraq.
usa brainwashed its citizens big time and even suggested these other eu countries were cowards.
no they had more sense than blair.
We are at a much greater risk than ever before by blair,s actions.
Blair & bush should have been charged for the mass murder of innocent citizens.
They should pull out now as this could be another Vietnam.
Report abuse
Boris has assured us that he “can cope with contributors being insulting”.
Has he stopped to ask himself why his fellow contributors are, as he says, being “insulting”?
His theories and his over-prolix explanations of those hypotheses are all very well, but they cut no ice at all with people who have had first-hand experience of war and its consequences.
Meanwhile, getting back to the original point of this correspondence, has anyone heard or read any refutation, conformation or any other sort of comment or reaction from His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor?
No, I thought not.
Report abuse
magnolia man
your first hand experience of war is to say the least tragic and I can only empathise. however it does not give you the right to tabloidise complex issues to the exclusion of all other strands of opinion. I hope that was short enough for you.
Report abuse
For what its worth, I think Boris’s contributions are very enlightening and worthwhile: I just wish that our leaders were making the same argument.
I think the real difficulty in Afghanistan is knowing what victory would look like. It may be that victory is, as Boris suggests, no more than stopping Pakistan descending into chaos.
Report abuse
To JERSEY’S Lieutenant-Governor
After almost a decade of war against the Islamist Mujahideen, the Soviets were forced to pack up and leave what was, and still is, considered their very own “Vietnam”.
They didn’t leave because they weren’t brave enough to continue, they left because they couldn’t find the enemy. And the same scenario faces NATO troops today.
Our brave troops are fighting a lop-sided war against an invisible enemy.
Our brave troops are fighting a ruthless enemy who wears civilian clothes and straps explosives to women and children and sends them to their deaths.
Our brave troops are fighting an enemy who routinely plants booby traps and leaves car bombs near markets.
Our brave troops are fighting an enemy who cleverly avoids man-to-man combat, because the enemy knows they will be ‘taken out’ in minutes if they come under pelting fire from Apache helicopters.
Our brave troops are fighting a remote-control war, where the enemy sits watching his goats until a NATO patrol approaches, then he presses a button and blows the life out of brave young men…and then returns to watching his goats.
So please, please tell me how we can win.
Report abuse
Well said Boris
People who say
“I have no intention of supporting the war. It only causes more problems than it can possibly solve”
have not looked properly at the long term ramifications of the west standing by and watching the middle east “sorting themselves out”.
A lot of the people who live in these areas are still only educated in the local mosque by the imams interpretation of the Koran. To many of them the sanctity of human life has yet to become a way to live, life is cheap, sometimes even their own.
The use of an atomic weapon by the west would require such a provocation I do not think it would even be an option for today’s western politicians, even if their counties were being overrun.
However as you have pointed out the use of these weapons in the middle east is a real and ever present threat and its impact on us must never be underestimated.
Had Iraq had a nuclear arsenal it would have been used without hesitation during the war I am just relieved that Bush stepped in before that happened (Sadam may not YET have had nuclear weapons, but it was not for lack of want, They were coming and lets not forget the Kurds who were gassed, men women and children.
I am proud that British troops were part of that, and the Afghanistan operation that is making the world a safer place.
Man now has the technology to destroy himself someone has to stop those to who extermination of the human race is acceptable collateral damage in their view of gods will.
Don’t worry about the insults its usually a lack of an answer that promotes its use.
Report abuse
I wonder if Boris lives or has lived in Jersey at any point in his life.
If he had, he would know about the Nazi occupation of the islands.
This might not have happened if the soldiers of Jersey and Guernsey had been permitted to “defend the borders of their country”.
But Boris does not concern himself with matters that happened in our midst; he immerses himself in ‘weltpolitik’ only.
Report abuse
Thanks 46 and 48. No. 49 I do live in Jersey and I have vaguely heard of the Second World War and the German occupation of the Channel Islands. However I would not have thought the Jersey Militia would have stood much chance against what was then a victorious German army and Jersey would have suffered more civilian casualties than it did. in any event what if anything has that got to do with whether or not our troops should be fighting in Afghanistan
Report abuse
#10 Magnolia Man, sorry to hear about your Grandson. You should not have the pain compounded by this man’s words. I don’t support the war but I certainly support our troops.
Report abuse
Another six coffins, containing the mangled remains of six British soldiers, arrived at Wootton Bassett today.
I do hope His Excellency, our Lieutenant Governor, took notice.
Report abuse
It might have escaped the Lieutenant Governor’s notice that the torn and mangled bodies of six British soldiers were flown to RAF Lyneham this morning.
The names of the occupants of the military coffins are:
WO1 Chant, 40, from east London,
Sgt Telford, 37, from Grimsby, Lincolnshire,
Guardsman Major, 18, from Cleethorpes, Lincolnshire,
Territorial Army volunteer Cpl Boote, 22, from Birkenhead, Merseyside,
Cpl Webster-Smith, 24, of Brackley, Northamptonshire,
Sergeant Philip Scott, of Edinburgh.
All of these fallen soldiers have left wives and partners, and young children.
I just thought His Excellency would like to have these facts brought to his attention.
His prophecies of last week continue to come to pass.
Report abuse
mad foetus “I think the real difficulty in Afghanistan is knowing what victory would look like.”
It has the smell of Vietnam about it to me. Should we give it another 10 years or 20 years just in case?
Report abuse
Boris;
No insults, from me, as I agree with most of your comments in messages #28, #35 & #42, an excellent analysis.
Although I often disagree with US government policies, especially the Bush administration, it is futile to keep blaming the Americans.
I realise that appearing to back the corrupt Karzai government makes it look like a repeat of the Vietnam situation, but there are important differences, most important we are fighting radicalised fanatical insurgents, prepared to carry out suicide attacks, not only within Afghanistan and Pakistan, but anywhere else in the World against Western targets. A situation far more dangerous than any presented by the Vietnam war.
The Taliban, Al Qaida, and other jihadis, would only regard any withdrawal at this time as weakness, on the part of the what they regard as the “soft” West. From history, we all now what appeasement to Hitler and the Nazi’s over Czechoslovakia, and Munich in 1938 led to . Germany was still so ill-prepared for war at that time, that many of the German High Command were almost “wetting their pants” in case Britain, in particular, along with France and the Soviet Union intervened with force, that Hitler would almost certainly backed down, and probably avoided WW2, as well as Jersey having to endure 5 years hardship of Nazi occupation.
Tragic though the conflict is, and feel my spirits sink every time another death is announced, the alternatives are so much worse, in the long term.
Report abuse
Why oh why should our troops be there at all?Many nations have tried to” westernise” Afghanistan,the country is tribal and has been for hundreds of years but still western governments are trying to impose their control,its their country, their religion ,their lands let them take control and remove our troops from the killing fields.
Report abuse
I think the capitalist west smells money there myself rather than fighting a bunch of clever tribesmen. The west is no doubt after their natural resources also and eager to build a Mc Donalds in the centre of Kabul
Report abuse
No comment needed.
Read Boris’ post no 28…..
With sense, reason and understanding like this are you not standing for election on the Isle of Jersey? Very good post!
Shame the rest is littered with sentimental tripe from “tick bubble encased Islanders”
Report abuse
Expat Bill
So true and so, so, sad
Report abuse
Less than 9 months ago The Taliban / Al Qaida were 9 miles away from taking control of Pakistan and all the nuclear weapons that they now have, look at the wider picture rather than what is being fed to promote sales of the tabloid press.
Report abuse
harvo 58.
You just don’t get it, do you?
We are not talking about the reasons for the war (all very honourable), we are talking about the impossibility to win, and the fact that we are told to accept the deaths of young men who are ill-equipped to fight an invisible enemy.
This is not WWII, the Taliban do not respect the Geneva Convention (most of them don’t even know where Geneva is. The Taliban wear women’s burkhas and target civilians with car bombs then hide in public places or jump on a bus to get away.
Is that a war? No, it’s a lop-sided game of “hide and seek” involving our troops, who fight with honour, and the Taliban, who wear burkhas and use civilians as shields.
Report abuse
Born Warrior # 61. It definately is a war; albeit an unconventional terrorist war.
If we are to defeat the Taliban, it will possibly be through the use of guile by Speacial Forces and not conventional means.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the war, our guys and girls are there and need our support.
Instead of bickering over stupid things at home, we should all put pressure on H.M. Government to give our troops what they need to finish their job.”Give us the tools and we will do the job.”
If we don’t take the war to the terrorists, they will bring the war to us.
Report abuse
The Taliban simply cannot be defeated in the way we’ve been trying so far. The only hope is to provide an alternative way of life to the youngsters in that area, a peaceful solution that will appeal to them far more than being coerced into fighting the ‘infidels’.
You have to get the population there to reject the Taliban themselves, it’s the only way.
Report abuse
‘Fiat Justitia’ 62.
Call the hostilities whatever you like.
But the truth is there are just not enough troops in Afghanistan to even start a real war against the Taliban. And even if NATO sends the troops America is asking for, the occupying forces will only total 120,000 (one-fifth of the real requirements for a country the size of Afghanistan).
And can we be sure that by sending more troops we will definitely rid the country of the Taliban? For all we know, it might even increase opposition to the soldiers, as Afghan daily-life becomes increasingly disrupted by searches and patrols.
So maybe instead we should fill the place with hospitals, schools and everything else we can offer in the hope that the friendly villagers, who by night turn into insurgents, will stop attacking our troops.
But whatever we do, it will not keep terrorism from our doors, because the terrorists are already here on our streets.
The four terrorists who carried out the 7/7 London bomb attacks were British citizens.
The terrorist who drove the car bomb into the main terminal at Glasgow airport was an NHS doctor.
The Terrorist who failed to blow up an Italian Army barracks lived in Milan with his Italian wife and two children.
The terrorist army major who went on a shooting spree at Fort Hood, killing and wounding his comrades, was born in the US.
So can you explain what you mean by: “If we don’t take the war to the terrorists, they will bring the war to us”…
Report abuse
60 Bean. Do you really think the Pakistani’s would have left “War ready” primed missiles available for use….no they would have disabled or used them first…..scaremongering.nonsense.
“Don’t panic Mr Mainwearing.!Right Jones, steady now…
Report abuse
truthseeker #65
in #9 you praise Pro Bono Public #8 who says
“What a facile remark the Lieutenant Governor has made. British service men and women have no place in Afghanistan, fighting America’s wars, and the sooner they are brought home the better.”
Then in #65 you say
Do you really think the Pakistani’s would have left “War ready” primed missiles available for use….no they would have disabled or “USED” them first”
Are you saying you don’t care if a WW3 a nuclear war starts from that area
Me thinks Truthseaker speaks with forked tongue !
Report abuse
Obviously keeping weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of rogue groups or States is a major preoccupation of many countries’ foreign policy. However it was a false bogeyman in Iraq and probably is also in Pakistan. (That is not to deny that the Pakistan India nuclear stand off is the most immediately dangerous situation on our planet.) As the Iraq invasion was driven by big oil so is the Afghan war, with the aim being for the US oil companies to build and secure a pipeline from Kazakhstan to the Indian Ocean. It is harder to motivate the populous of countries to fight for such blatant commercial ventures rather than for scarier WMD stories. So we’re being suckered again.
Report abuse
Well done Dec for seeing the bigger picture.
The invasion of Iraq was wrong. If it wasn’t can anyone tell me where the weapons of mass destruction went? Either they were there, or they didn’t exist, which is it? Which country bordering Iraq has these weapons of mass destruction if they do exist and have been moved?
PJG I believe a good way to start WW3 is to keep going down this road and then invade Iran as well. They are a very bad state aren’t they? According to whom? Ah yes the west who don’t like them. Why not just alienate all the muslims while you’re at it? If they all rose up and attacked the west I believe the west would have a new Crusade to fight.
Afghanistan and Pakistan, and even Iran, if they are controlled by the west will enable a pipeline to reach the Indian Ocean. This will help them bypass Russia who at present control a large volume of the wests (EU) power supply.
The west already controls the Iraqi oilfields why not add a few more oil states while you’re at it?
These are my views on this situation. I don’t believe in the reds under the bed scenerio, sorry I meant to say terrorists under the bed scenerio.
I suggest people watch THE POWER OF NIGHTMARES made by the BBC.
By the way what are peoples views on paying £47M in bonuses to civil service clerks in the MoD?
Is this where a government should be spending hard earned cash when people haven’t got enough kit to fight the war in Afghanistan? Sorry but this is beyond a joke in my book.
Report abuse
PJG.I did not say I preferred anything……
Report abuse
So much lack of clarity. So many mixed messages.
President Obama is at present refraining from bolstering troop numbers contrary to the wishes of his generals.
The problem is that the allied armed forces are being used to prop up an Afghan government that is both illegitimate and corrupt.
Presumably General Ridgway would encourage us to oppose the present position taken by the President of the USA and to support the preferred army policy of increasing troop deployments.
Sorry General, but I think you need to tighten up your argument for war before telling us that we should support it. Gung ho platitudes
are insufficient.
Report abuse
No, let’s keep this thread focused on His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor’s tactless assertion that “Islanders should be prepared to see more ‘Union Flag-draped coffins’ returning to the UK”.
General Ridgway will rue the day he dropped that particular clanger.
Report abuse
“Presumably General Ridgway would encourage us to oppose the present position taken by the President of the USA and to support the preferred army policy of increasing troop deployments.”
I do. Anything’s better than the dumb idea of abandoning Afghanistan for the Taliban (lol “national liberation,” what an awful joke and dangerous fallacy). Remember the last time the political leader overrode his Generals because he thought he knew best and their advice was rubbish?
Report abuse
Soldiers do not join the army to defend the borders of their country; they join to go off and fight wars as far away as possible.
They also do not go to war so that the USA can build a pipe line near the border with pakistan so Russian gas can be piped south, to fill rich oil/gas Companies, investors pockets.
Tommy is not there to max profits for a few….
They are also fed up with not having the back up from their Blier Government.
Report abuse
I am not really sure what the LG has actually said wrong. We, the UK are fighting a war in Afghanistan and troops are being killed every day. This is not going to stop anytime soon and we have to accept this regardless of our feelings, as to whether or not we should be there.
There for we need to be aware that we are going to see an endless stream of coffins comeing back through Wooton Bassett until the war ends. What do you expect him to tell you al that it isnt going to happen anymore. I am not really sure what he was expected to say about the war in Afghanistan.
Report abuse
Unfortunatly ex-tommy, soldiers volunteer to join the forces, and the government of the day elected by the people of the UK send them where ever they see fit and to fight wars as part of the foreign policy of the day.
Go back over history and the majority of wars fought by the British Army have been about trade and making the rich of the country even richer. We even fought a war in China to force the Chinese to accept opium from British drug dealers.
It is not up to the forces to dictate whom and where they fight and for what reason. In the words of Aflred Lord Tennyson ‘Theirs not to reason why thiers but to do and die’. Read in context you can see this is a dig at the cheapness of a soldier’s life.So not much has changed.
Unfortunatly it does not sound so great when it is our loved ones that are doing and dying and getting their bits blown off.
Report abuse
It is a painful thing to me to see men die not only the forces involved in conflict but the tens of thousands of poor civilians gunned down and blown up. I believe that the young men and women of all the allied forces are putting there life on the line but i dont believe this is for freedom. It was the most highly decorated US soldier ever that said WAR IS A RACKET in the book of this title a very small short book he higlights insane war profits for the friends of government the poor treatment of soldiers and the fact that its the poor and underclass that fights while the sons of influence are paraded as men of courage and honour, while the might even join the army they are kept out of harms way. To understand this war in any way we need a good understanding of the last few wars not what you are told on TV. Yes hitler, sadam and the like are evil men but if you take a real sober look at the powers that be, in the UK and the US you will find many a war criminal and i am not talking about abuse of prisoners. Look into who backed hitler sadam the taliban the IRA, On that point i am glad we didnt nuke the Irish even though Ireland was there homeland and very few people spoke out (for fear for there lives). I see the people of Iraq Iran and the others to be put through the grinder like the Irish until the point of snap, Then a child who has lost his mother or sister to sum druged up soldier ( this is given to keep his thinking out the way ) will take his life and a few of our boys as well.
It is sad.
WHY DO THEY ALWAYS SEND THE POOR.
War is a racket is on amazon for £5 its a very good book from a man who is very intrested in freedom for all men.
Report abuse
Boris try “War is a racket” there is some one on google video reading part of it and the book can be bought on amazon for a fiver this book was written by the US most decorated General and is clear and to the point the video is accurate also.
Report abuse
WAR IS A RACKET
By Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC[Retired]
As paul says get this book and it will open your eyes.
HOW TO STOP WARS?
The Major General basically said that the first to be conscripted to fight in any war should be those running capital, industry and labour. By this he meant the directors and the high-powered executives of all companies that make profit from war time as well as bankers, speculators and politicians.
How many wars would be fought if these policies were implemented do you think? I would venture the answer either zero or very very few.
Anyone got any better ideas to keep the peace?
Report abuse
JERSEY’S Lieutenant-Governor has called for Islanders to support the war in Afghanistan and warned that losing the conflict would ‘condemn our children to decades of terrorism’.
Our children are already condemed to years of terrorism after the effect of 2 illegal wars and as Jersey is supposed to be a democratic society (ha ha) support for this alleged war cannot be demanded.
Report abuse
Man, what were we thinking when we elected this guy…… oh wait…. my mistake.
Report abuse
I’ve done Two tours of Iraq,Afghanistan and the Balkans and I’m a Reservist!!With the current climate with the work situation looks like I’m gong back to Afghanistan to earn a living for my family to survive in Jersey.The Politicians never looked after the troops when they got back.shame on them.Since I’ve been back from Afghanistan I’ve applied for numerous jobs to work for the states but not one interview.One job was for a mobile cleaner/Labourer,didn’t even get a letter back, Looks like I’m not even fit enough to clean Jersey toilets,but to fight a war on global terrorism,no dramas there.
Report abuse
Lieutenant governor; a UK representative and appointee.
Speaks for the UK.
Jersey; nothing to do with the UK.
Lieutenant Governor; nothing to do with Jersey.
Lieutenant Governor’s opinion; irrelevant.
Report abuse
Pehaps there is a need to concider the basic facts.
British troops went into Afganistain in 2001, after the 9/11 outrage, in support of the United States, an act of solidarity for an old and valuable ally which had been attacked by a vicious terrorist organisation which had gained sanctuary from a corrupt, barbaric, fundamentalist regime in Afghanistan.
The UK Government went in to help clear this nest of vipers and, largely, succeeded. British troops also brought down the government of Afghanistan, which would have toppled anyway. Had we left then, the country would doubtless have reverted to its barbaric, anarchic state, with small islands of something approaching urban civilisation, in appearance if not fact.
But, in a moment of collective hubris, the UK –thought it could impose on this wild, ungovernable land.
Bribed by billions of dollars and the promise of many more, the peoples of Afghanistan went through the motions of an election, which resembled but was not a democratic process, and selected a corrupt tribal leader, from a choice of other corrupt tribal leaders and warlords. He then did what any self-respecting, corrupt tribal leader would do – milked the system to enrich himself, his tribe members, his allies, enemies and cronies.
Not even attempting governance or development, this allowed the country to revert to its usual state of anarchy and tribal warfare, compounded by a low-grade civil war which has been ongoing for so many decades that no one can rightly work out when it started, or even care enough to find out.
Faced with what the UK took to be the progressive collapse of the system the uk Govenmentof the day thought it had installed – but had not – the then prime minister, decided to reinforce failure, by deploying a small, ill-equipped contingent of troops, charged with undertaking a task for which they were ill-prepared and which, in any case was difficult to achieve.
However today failure is not an option and terrorism must not be allowed to fester in Afganistain. British and US troops need public,ministerial and logistic support – not illinformed comment.
Lest we all forget the facts – terrorism is an evil that must be distroyed, which is why British troops are fighting in Afganistain.
Report abuse
“War is a racket”
So,So true.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_EXqJ8f-0
Report abuse
Peter Troy “a vicious terrorist organisation which had gained sanctuary from a corrupt, barbaric, fundamentalist regime in Afghanistan.”
Wasn’t this the same group that was supplied by the west with training, money, and arms to defeat the “illegal” Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980′s?
disabled ex-Tommy has posted a link to youtube maybe Peter Troy would like to view it and give his comments since he seems to be in possession of all the facts?
Report abuse
“Wasn’t this the same group that was supplied by the west with training, money, and arms to defeat the “illegal” Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980’s?”
Which naturally means we are in absolutely no way able to defeat them either militarily or politically. Brilliant. Gordon should hire you.
War is a Racket and The Power of Nightmares. Maybe I’ll watch them when I find my tinfoil hat.
Report abuse
Hmm I was making the point that this is self inflicted isn’t it? Just like with Saddam Hussein.
Another unfortunate fact.
Report abuse
The Lieutenant Governor is intitled to his own personal views on this so-called war but he has no right to tell me or anyone else what we should think and do!
He is in a cushy job living in a big house at our expense and should not try to lord it over us like some higher authority!
He may know about war (he’s got enough experience of it!) but i know what i think and would never dream of telling others to think the same as me.
Report abuse
The coffin containing the remains of the late Rifleman Philip Allen, of 2nd Battalion The Rifles, arrived back in the UK today.
I mention this because His Excellency, the Lieutenant Governor, has commanded that “that Islanders should be prepared to see more ‘Union Flag-draped coffins’ returning to the UK”.
I mention this also just in case Lieutenant General Ridgway might have forgotten making that asinine remark.
Because we certainly have not.
Report abuse
Magnolia Man
Not quite sure what your point is; it appears he was proved right.
Report abuse