‘Gas guzzlers’ are target of tax plan
Thursday 12th November 2009, 2:59PM GMT.
Senator Le Main, an owner of an E-Type Jaguar himself, is calling for drivers to pay their way on bigger cars
MOTORISTS driving large ‘gas guzzlers’ could be forced to pay hundreds of pounds a year under new pollution taxes.
Senator Terry Le Main has drawn up a plan to raise £5 million under a scheme that penalises drivers based on car engine size.
The money raised would be used to fund a Hoppa bus service in town which, he said, would encourage Islanders out of their cars.
But Senator Le Main was criticised by the Environment Scrutiny panel yesterday after he admitted that his proposal, which is an amendment to Senator Philip Ozouf’s green taxes proposal, was ‘a bit woolly’.
Panel chairman Deputy Phil Rondel questioned the figures in his proposal and asked why the scheme was based on engine size rather than carbon emissions.
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But drivers of thirstier cars are already paying more tax because they use more fuel, what now they will be taxed twice.
It won’t work as a deterrant it will just raise revenue which I suppose is Tezza’s point. I’m not against taxing the rich, on the contrary I think they should be taxed more but thirsty cars are already taxed excessively as most of the cost of petrol is tax.
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Ask anyone in London would they want public transport improved? they’ll all answer yes. Then ask them why? So they can drive about easier.
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Motorists driving large ‘gas guzzlers’ are forced to pay to pay more already.
They do a lot less MPG than grannies buzz box, every gallon used is tax money to the states.
Its a price those who enjoy driving have always paid.
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Surely it should just be on consumption (as it is already) ie adding to fuel charges.
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Come on Terence you must know by now that it is only politically correct to speak in the sense of carbon emissions ! maybe you should remind those sceptics to your proposals that the larger the engine the higher the carbon emissions This would include buses and lorries of course. Push this one forwards as it is viable in terms of lowering emissions in every sense.
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Don’t ‘gas guzzlers’, by definition, buy more fuel and therefore pay more in taxes anyway?
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That’s fine by me I am happy to contribute towards making Jersey a greener place.
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Shall those with large sized engines travelling from the West, park at Sand Street and then hop on the hoppa-bus …
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You would have thought that as a car dealer by trade old Tezza would have known that my 2 year old 2.5 litre car, serviced every year, running on good tyres and generally well maintained, probably throws out far less muck into the atmosphere than a boy racers ancient 1.4 litre Vauxhall Nova dripping with Halfords accessories being ragged around the Island.
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Great idea but should be based on emissions not engine size.
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If this moves helps to discourage the use of superfluous 4×4′s and similar vehicles that take up too much room on the island’s narrow roads then so be it.
Who in Jersey needs – as opposed to wants, which is a different thing – a private car with more than 1000 cc engine capacity?
However, what Jersey really needs is a public transport system that reaches all parts of this tiny island. Then there would be one less excuse for self-drive cars clogging up the roads of Jersey.
At present, Connex will only send its buses on the profitable routes, ignoring places like the Mount Bingham estates, with their large concentrations of elderly residents.
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This is ridiculous.
I have a large engine car but it does 500 miles a year in the summer…
The tax on usage is already in place – 80% of the petrol price goes in tax – so the more you use, the more you pay.. Simple.
Get a life Terry.
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There is some sense in the proposal,assuming the engine size is set at ,say,2 litres.
A large number of vehicles with engines above this size are driven by our wealthier citizens,many of whom are on “all expenses paid” remunerations,have several cars including the infamous SUV’s etc and can be seen in many private car parks.A fair number of our politicians also have these type of vehicles. As they use more fuel they pollute more and should pay more accordingly.Any increase in taxes will have a minimal impact on them as they will merely get an increase in their “expenses” to pay for it!
Setting the engine limit at a lower level will have a much greater impact as it will affect those who have to live in the real world where you have to pay for things yourself.
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Does this include all the agricultural vehicles, public transport vehicles and no doubt all the gas guzzlers used by the C.O.M.? instead of ripping more money out of people already highly taxed why not provide incentives that encourage people to do the right thing, or maybe spend less on waste of time projects that cost the earth and benefit no one !
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#12 Well said. There is an assumption that all of us 4WD drivers are using these cars superfluously (I don’t own the car, but it’s the only one I have access to in Jersey), that our journeys are the result of laziness and that we have no concern for the environment. What a load of utter naive codswallop. I use a 4WD in Jersey but most of the time it sits idle. At the most I’ll do maybe 20 miles a week!
A lot of people assume when they see a 4WD that it is on a needless journey or a journey that could be done in a normal hatchback. How do they know where that car has come from or where it is going? They don’t!
And as I’ve said before, we don’t all just drive in Jersey, we do actually leave the island occasionally. Nor can we all afford a car for all seasons!
Find a way to tax needless journeys and stop just penalising honest, decent, hard-working citizens!
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The problem is not the car but the fuel and carbon footprint.
Tax to problem; the fuel!
Look above we are all talking common sense.
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By my count half the posts on this forum agree with me – PSG, James may – like the shirt BTW, Stan Still – you don’t get around much, Steve and Bob.
We already pay through the nose as we use more fuel – another of Terry’s well thought out plans.
We will remember come election time!
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I have had to read this article a few times, because I cannot believe the tripe comming from a Senator who I though generally supported the working man ! He criticises thouse on a limited budget for driving an old car and seems to think that everyone can afford to buy a new economical car.
Some families need a large car for their 3 or 4 children. Is the Senator hoping to force islanders to all buy a small car. Sorry Terry, I am not driving my family at 80 mph along a French motorway in a biscuit tin. And please can he define a Gas Guzzler ? Is it a Range Rover, or a 2 litre Audi A4 ?
And it is often the poorer members of society who have the less efficient cars because they cannot afford a new Toyota Prius or Honda Insight, and very oftern, a used ‘larger’ car offers very good value for money.
Sorry Terry, with comments like that, it is time for the electorate to decide on your future. I certainly could not vote for someone who ultimately could put my family at risk of injury in an inadequate tim box !
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In a place like Jersey with narrow roads, these big gas guzzling 4 by 4s are just wrong for the vast majority of owners and very anti-social. A study came out a while back and linked ownership of them to certain psychological inadequacies which they try to address by driving an urban tank. Tax on CO2 as well as at the petrol pump is the way to go.
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Isn’t a tax on engine size unfair to diesel engine drivers, or will there be a different scale for diesels?
(Diesels are generally less powerful than an equivalent size petrol engine, but use maybe 2/3 of the fuel, and generate a lot less C02)
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I think this is totally unfair. I have a sports car but I use it socially once or twice a week. I get the bus to work and back every day
So why should I be taxed the same as someone who drives a ‘gas guzzler’ every day?
Further, surely it should be based on cardbon emissions and not on the size of the engine. Modern cars have new technologies that considerably reduce their carbon emissions (so to tax on the size of the engine is unjustified)
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Re: Keith.
“We will remember come election time!, all too true.
Terry Le Main is a wily politician who is seeking divert attention away from his failed housing policy.
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Terry le main is a fool if he thinks that this is a good idea. Has this guy not got a clue…
I have 2 cars a classic 6ltr V8 which i use about once a month for a couple of hours and a 2 ltr car that I use more frequently for transporting things and to get me around. Where possible I will cycle to work or run. If i have to pay hundreds of pounds a year more to be able to own these cars then I will need to justify this more and most likley will drive them more often.
Rather then taking the classic out once a month it will probably be once a week.
Surley the best way to prevent motorists from driving is to increase fuel charges thus convincing people to stay out of their cars not make them pay wether they use them or not..
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So we all become boring go out buy and drive Smart Cars.
What difference do you think that would make to Jerseys carbon emissions ?
Compared to the emissions we produce with goods transport. busses, taxis (I have yet to see a Smart as a taxi ?)boats, aircraft, coal fires.
To quote a popular analogy, its a piss in the ocean.
And as for 4x4s blocking up lanes, its the useless drivers that do that, not the cars and from my experience its the compact drivers who cant reverse that’s why they bought a small car in the mistaken thought it would be easier to drive with their lesser driving skills.
I once had to reverse a HGV over a 100mtrs because the driver of a Fiat 500 told me she was not too good at reversing.
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#19 We could just come up with a way to tax the “psychological inadequacies”.
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Terry if you want to increase tax then do it directly by an increase in income tax possibly by introducing a higher rate. this is the only fair way. However what you should be doing is finding ways to reduce taxes this is the real challange for our politicians, are they up to it!
I don’t agree in principle with taxing “luxury” items which makes them only affordable by the rich.
If the population want green policies then legislate for them you are sure to be re elected. You could introduce Carbon Rationing and each individual could have ration coupons just like the War Years. This would be fair as every person would then have the same allowance and a free choice as to how it is used.
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Would the ‘eco-tax’ apply to the gas guzzling gin palaces moored at the marina or to States vehicles such as PSD lorries.
Or would it be just be for private vehicles owned by Mr & Mrs Joe Public?
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I am guessing that this is to go towards pollution. What I think the reality will be is that we will pay the states and they will spend the money on something else that we don’t need. If they wanted to help with the pollution, then surely they should have gone with Daniel Wimberley’s proposition for the incinerator.
Yet another plan to take more money off us…
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Hear Hear Matt 21. I have a 2.8i petrol estate which I use for going to France, travelling to various spots for walking my dog and my fella plays golf at weekends. Other than that I cycle to work everyday, my daughter walks to school and my fella rides to work everyday on his scooter. I even walk to and from town from my St Saviour home.
Why does Terry want to tax me?
Claire Jones your comment is bordering on ridiculous. Who are you to cast psychological aspersions on 4×4 drivers? I don’t even have one and I find your comment offensive.
What sort of car would you drive if you had a couple of large dogs? A horse trailer to pull or a boat perhaps? Ignorance my dear, ignorance..perhaps spiked with a smidgen of the green eyed monster?
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At last a chelsea tractor tax. May make them think twice and buy a sensible car
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Claires letter at no 19 hits the nail right on the head.
From what i have witnessed her claim about certain individuals driving “ridiculous” cars over here example “Ronge Rovaires” and the like may indeed be linked to psychological inadequacies or “little man” syndrome.
There are some rather “odd” characters who need to prove there worth which is obviously lacking in a lot of areas not just mentally.
While i appreciate the need of huge 4×4 monstrosoties on the farm for pulling horse trailers etc the need for them to drop off the kids at school and charge down green lanes is indeed a cause for concern.
I myself will leave the island as soon as possible due to a nut allergy!
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It is almost certain that we will face fuel rationing within a decade or two.
This rationing will either be by prices that only the really wealthy will be able to afford eg several pounds per litre or by the goverment issuing the 21st century equivalent of coupons.
Most industry anlysts are of the opinion that maximum possible output per day is around the 85 – 95m barrels mark and demand from China etc is rising inexorably.
A world poulation of 8 billion with most of us driving around?
Possible, but we are going to have to do it in very small cars indeed!
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I am sure there are a lot of reasons for enforcing a Gas Guzzerling tax but it needs to be fair. I like many get incensed when I see a mother with one child in a Blacked out Range rover Sports doing the school run. However I think the issue here is the way we use our cars.
We have a 2.7 D Disco that is used occasionally on Jersey roads but mainly for long continental trips, A classic 3.2 that gets used on the odd dry Sunday afternoon and a little old Mini 1.0 L that we both commute to work in on a daily basis from an area that is nowhere near a bus route. To tax us heavily on vehicles that we use occasionally is wrong. For thoughts of you who feel the solution is just to have the one car; well we would probably chose the Disco for its practicality this brings me back full circle to the large Blacked Range Rover Sports.
People who can afford the big cars will just pay the tax making the around town 1 hour car park slots even more elitist. No, the thing to do to ease Island congestion and pollution is; Bring in a over 3 years yearly £30 MOT to clear a lot of the older cars with unchecked high carbon emissions obviously taking into consideration vintage vehicles (over 25 years) like they do in the UK. Reduce 1 hour Public car park space sizes with bollards and planters so they can only accommodate ‘smaller’ vehicles and increase restricted access areas around town by using time constrains and height/width barriers like they do in most European cities. Most of all try encourage parents to share school runs through fuel allowance schemes -the amount of cars I see with one parent and one child staggers me. The funny thing is in the school holidays Jersey seems to turn back to normality with the only hold up being the occasional tractor, I wonder whether they will come under the scrutiny of the gas guzzerling Tax.
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CO2 is what plants breath and give off Oxygen for us and the animals.
Global Warming was also happening on Saturn at the same time as with the rest of the planets as well, and it has now stoped and is cooling again as it is here on earth.
Old Shell BP and the crew are in bed with the politians and laughing all the way to the bank Al Gore.He has made billions yes real billions from his investments in CO2 trading and fake enviromental stuff. They use fake green issue’s and fake activists making some green claim, then they make a noise that it will hurt the bottom line claim its false science so that the little people think its big oil killing the planet and there children. In comes the honest polititian taking on the just cause. They grunt and complain but accept that it would be good if we could have green fuel but it will take time and it might not be good for the people but yes we must save the planet. Next minute the are there on TV green green green every thing is going to be ok the oil people are on board the polititians are on board it is going to cost you more but the planet is safe. But Al and crew were there at the start it all fake and coming to Jersey. Bring back the Electric Suzuki’s they had i Jersey years ago (no the didnt break and were way to efficient) i can today convert any petrol car to run on Hydrogen yes at greater efficiecy than fuel cells as could any mechanic and its output would be water and a engine that would last into the millions of miles. This is in the best intrests of man in that CO2 is safe but the other stuff out the exhaust is not so good, so water out is very safe. This is not the H20 systems found on the net it is hydrogen from a tank and air from outside. I am not against being eco friendly but the eco these gits push is fake get them to stop polluting the rivers and air with the real poisons, And paying money to Al to fly in his 5 jets wont work anyway dont just tax things make them last a washing machine a car a fridge can be made to last hundreds of years but then you wouldnt buy a new one if you are real about being green think on.
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I have a sports car but as I’m out of the island most of the time, it only gets used once a week. I f its a “green” tax then surely I should be taxed for the fuel that I use.
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Ludicrous if this is based on engine size alone! My 4wd 300bhp+ turboed car was only 2lt but on a good day I got 20 mpg out of it if I was careful
Base it on use and emissions please .. personally I’d have everyones mileage recorded annually (declare it like income to the tax man!) and use a formula to calculate liability: such as, TAX = (Emmissions – BaseEmmissions) * MilesPerAnnum^Capacity * Rate
Where BaseEmmissions is that of a Prius or whatever the benchmark is, Capacity is engine size in litres and rate is a politically motivated scaling factor! Simples …
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Electric cars are the simple way for the Jersey commute, and keep you long distance car at home for the UK and Europe. Or hire a car for the off island trips if convenient and this might sort Condor out as well. Real Green not Tax.
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another winner of an idea from the head of the now disgraced housing department. i have a 2.5 l renault van that won a green award for low emissions and only use it occaisionally at the weekends. i cycle to work.
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#30 Treehugger
‘At last a chelsea tractor tax. May make them think twice and buy a sensible car’
I have a sensible car, it is sensible for the job I need it to do.
I have a 3 litre diesel 4×4 which I use to tow a 1.5 ton trailer several times a week!
A SMART CAR JUST AIN’T UP TO THE JOB NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU AND ALL THE OTHER TOWNINES BLEAT ON ABOUT THEM!!!!!
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#24 Couldn’t agree more!
I’ve never been blocked by 4WD on Jersey roads, but boy have I had to hang about while someone tries to park a roller skate in a parking space that could easily take a bus.
Last week I was stuck for 5 miles behind a man in a tiny car who assumed that whenever the white line in the centre of the road disappeared it meant that he had to wait and give priority to oncoming traffic! So I sat and sat and sat, numerous times, as every time the white line disappeared (and it did regularly) we stopped and waited till there was no traffic coming in the other directon before we proceeded. Being ‘rush hour’ at one point we waited for 23 cars to drive past. Of course, there was enough plenty of width for us to keep driving at 30 (even 40) and for these oncoming cars to drive pass by on their side of the road, but he couldn’t see that somehow!
If someone is that incapable on the road then they should not hold a driving licence.
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Regarding Clares comment at 29.
Touch of the green eyed monster???
What,over someone whos got themselves into debt for a 4×4 that they cant afford? Hardly worthy of anything to envy is it.
I know of a foreign kitchen porter who has one of these Jeep things,his girlfreinds having to help him with the repayments. “Nothing” wrong with that of course, but hardly anything to be envious about is it.
It will be interesting to see how many of these truck things are repossessed when the redundencies start kicking off.
Not everyone “cares” to impress as theres some of us who have no inadequecies and are happy pleasing ourselves and not,aspiring to care what other sados think;-)
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The whole emissions argument is fundamentally flawed. The amount of co2 pumped into the atmosphere during the production of a vehicle far outweighs the relatively small amount of greenhouse gas generated in its life, regardless of how eco-friendly the car is.
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If the states and the senator really want to reduce carbon emissions perhaps they should think GIVE, GIVE, GIVE instead of TAKE, TAKE, TAKE.
Perhaps if they gave free / reduced fee parking to green Vehicles and low emission / electric cars, while also offered Free Bus service, people would use them more and cut emissions?
If the bus was Free, yes it would cost more but it wouldn’t be seen as such a burden as it would be a proper service that people could see the value in. Even if it was just the main routes?
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Tax and more tax, oh yes lets supplement that with some more tax.
Lets have some grown up policy to tackle these problems.
If they cant, vote them out at the next election.
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“Would the ‘eco-tax’ apply to the gas guzzling gin palaces moored at the marina?”
Owners and/or operators of the GGGPs pay no tax for their fuel, nor are taxes payable on aviation fuel either.
The rationale behind this enormous, gaping, chasm of a loophole in the island’s tax system is similar to the zero tax on banking companies: Jersey does not wish to offend or scare off yacht owners or aviators.
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Re #39 from best4x4xfar
Now then, what makes me think you also use the ‘nom de plume’ of Spartacus?
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What on earth is Terry Le Main playing at. I would of thought that he would have been far to busy running the Housing department to come up with “woolly” schemes such as this. Or is this a smoke screen to divert our attention from the problems at housing.
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Per capita, Jersey must be one of the biggest producers of greenhouse gases in the world. But its not cars that are the problem, its cows. And we subsidise them.
Couldn’t make it up.
Lets get them methane machines out of the fields and recycle them into burgerform.
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I’d like to know how Terry “clueless” Le Main has come up with the figure of 5 million.
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So Senator Le Main wants to tax the motorist up to the handsome figure of £5Million for driving petrol guzzling cars…then has a picture taken of him standing next to his E-type jaguar! His proposals are an amendment to Senator Ozoufs green taxes proposals, or dare I say “tax us till we have nothing left” proposals.
He goes on to say that he knows it’s “a bit woolly” and that scientifically proven ways of measuring pollution from cars are “hugely complicated”.
Ok I’m going to help you out here a bit Senator because I happen to be a fully qualified motor vehicle technician and know exactly how a car works.
The car you own is one of the most polluting cars ever made. It has no catalytic converter was made with a 3.8 litre engine and was increased to 4.2 litres in October 1964. It has a fuel consumption of 21.3 miles per imperial gallon (13.3 L/100 km; 17.7 mpg-US).
New cars such as the Honda insight and Toyota Prius are hybrid cars. They have a battery incorporated into the car and assist the petrol engine which helps in reducing carbon emissions. They are state of the art vehicles so pollute less.
There is no comparison between the heavy carbon foot print of your E-type jaguar to that of a modern car. The comments that were made in the Jersey Evening Post (12.11.09) were irresponsible and ill thought out.
He blames… and I quote “I am trying to encourage big cars off the road. There are a lot of poor people running rubbish on the roads. And if you want a big car you should have to pay tax on it”
This statement is absolutely insulting to people. Is Senator Le Main saying that unless you are rich you shouldn’t be driving a big car?
What exactly does he define as a big car? And least he forgets people with “big” cars are already paying their fair share in road tax that was put on the fuel years ago.
I was once told… “Think about what you are going to say before you say it”…
I think the whole point of me writing this article is to highlight the fact that policy is once again being made on the “hoof” if you will pardon the pun.
This is a perfect example of one hoof not knowing what the other “hoof” is doing. Senator Le Main if you will let me explain….
Constable Jackson is already in the process of consulting the public with his “nothing new” transport policy. So if you give him a call or email him here I’m sure he will let you take part in it.
Senator Le Main stated that he felt we weren’t doing enough for the environment, so this is his idea in how to improve it….tax the public some more because the states will not stop spending. And drive his E-type to his private car parking space in town that we as the tax payer are paying for.
As Senator Le Main is minister for housing he can make the biggest impact on our environment and improve it by stopping the mass immigration that is destroying our countryside (see Island plan)
He has consistently voted in the states to increase the islands population and in the next breath wants to improve the environment.
The proposals that you are so intent on inflicting on the tax paying public of Jersey are ill thought out and have only one thought behind them…to raise revenue that takes money out of the Islands hard working publics pockets.
Enough said.
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I agree with no.33. It is not necessariy the type of vehicles driven but more the way that they are used. The States need to think about how to encourage a healthier generation, giving free mandatory bicycle efficiency classes to all children on the island. Some schools are working hard on trying to enocurage walking to school. One parent and one child cars twice a day is crazy. Sadly, the culture of walking to school or car sharing has changed because, these days both parents in a family work. (A necessity these days because a loaf of bread can cost as much as £2.35!!! If parents are having to travel to work in the car then they figure that they may as well take their child to school on the way into town. Roll on the idea of fuel vouchers to encourage car sharng.
Close town to cars and make it a pedestrian and bicycle friendly town. Bring on park and ride! Having previously lived in London, why not sort out some rickshaw taxis too and a town tram. Come on Jersey – we could really set a good example – but NOT through taxing lager cars – ridiculous.
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Mmmm. I don’t drive a gas guzzler but boy is it a vote winner! If you argue against you’re anti Environment or arrogant or a nasty wealthy person…same the world over when it comes to raise an easy buck.
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GTR is an obvious Chevrolet Matiz or Honda Jazz driver lol.. that’s IF we’re casting aspersions!!!! hahahahahahahaha not everyone who drives a 4×4 can’t afford them!
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Alan Jones talks to Lord Monckton, British climate change sceptic, who says the Copenhagen treaty is about creating a world government.
nice
http://2gb.com.au/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=4998
.net bye the way
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About time. Driving ‘status’ cars when the world is running out of oil, the scarce natural resource on which all our lives depend, is ignorant. Shame on our politicians for not leading by example. They are pathetic, self serving wannabe’s. They should ban status, gas guzzler’s and name anyone in public office who drives one. It is criminal. I look down on them with utter contempt. I challenge the JEP to list all our politicians and the cars they drive.
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Roy Travert #50
E type or Honda insight and Toyota Prius.
Which one would you prefer to drive ?
If its the latter 2, get a life.
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Roy Travert #50
“I happen to be a fully qualified motor vehicle technician and know exactly how a car works”
Would you like to comment then on how the short up and down hills, lots of braking, no
long rundowns to charge accumulator of Jersey motoring make the Toyota pious (spelling mistake intended) suitable for jersey motoring ?
Also have you looked at the depreciation of these plastic boxs, no way could I afford that sort of motoring costs, computer control system normally goes down on a 3 to 5 year old model and makes it uneconomical to repair, so gets scrapped, very eco friendly.
Now take the E type not only is it a gorgeous car to look at, fantastic to drive (ever tried one)It is now worth more than it was when bought new, its at least 30 years old. Now take the emissions to manafacture a car, Jag x 1, Tojo x 6.
Back to my previous post which one would you prefer ?
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Regarding clares comment about me driving a Cheverolet matiz or Honda Jazz.
Well “no” i dont have either of these cars, but theres nothing wrong with a Honda jazz as its one of the most reliable cars around and very practical for most fammilies in Jersey.
I did however travel across europe in a Toyota 1.3 vvti which kept up with everything and managed 110mph which was fast enough for me. You certainly dont need a 2.8 engine to go abroad,thats slightly dim witted.
As for myself,i would never cast psycholocical asspersions, especially as you said you walked to town from your St Saviours home.
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We are already paying double taxation on fuel – impot duty and GST on top. Why not get rid of all the stealth taxes. How much do things really cost today if all the hidden duties and taxes were removed ?
That would make for an interesting article Mr. Editor.
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I think it is a great idea to get more people using public transport. Personally I have 240bhp sports car that does 20mpg. I don’t mind if I have to pay a road tax of £400 plus per year – it’s peanuts to me. More people off the road will mean that I will be able to get about much quicker & sit in less traffic. Well worth the extra fee.
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Said as Seen, I completely agree with you. I’m head of a big offshore trust operation and as you can imagine my time is money. Just so much congestion caused by the masses going about their business and let’s get them on the buses or better still off the roads completely. Everyday when I drive solo in my Porsche 911 into town,I am sick of the congestion caused near Five Oaks roundabout by the “Sans-Culottes” in their cheap cars. Don’t they know I’ve got important and lucrative work to do?
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so we want diesels exempt ,classic cars exempt. what about boat fuel . i dont mean your joe bloggs with 18ft fishing for the table i mean the tax dodge gin palaces in the marinas.what about taxing company cars . your not going to tell me that with the amount of aston martins over here people went in and paid cash for them . high rollers get company cars we could only dream of
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Yeah! and i have a 330 bhp fiat punto with energy induction and Ricardo seats because im so rich and sucksesfull,unfortunately though i live in a bedsit with a candle to cook on.
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#55 How many assumptions must you be making every day if you assume every 4WD that passes is a ‘status car’? Never mind how horrible life must be when you’re constantly feeling such contempt!
That’s really sad frankly. I drive a 4WD, it’s the only car I have access to in Jersey (I can’t afford to buy my own, a friend lets me borrow theirs). And yes, it is used on land that a non 4WD could simply not go on!
It’s not a status car, and frankly it never would be for me. If it’s not a Maserati or a Koenigsegg then it barely registers on my radar, I’ve spent too much time around Ferraris, TVRs, Aston Martins etc.
It has lower emissions than many smaller cars, it has enough room for everything I need to carry when I go abroad (camping gear etc.) We can’t all afford to pay for hotels but we do ALL deserve holidays.
This is a great new tax plan cause once again it follows the simple ‘get the poor off the roads and leave it clear for the rich’ policy that the States are so desperate to implement.
I’m pretty sure that by forcing poor people off the road the States must be breaking at least one human rights law. Still, if the roads are only for the rich then the States can all get about much quicker.
The sooner everyone wakes up to this bunch of elitist, money-obsessed, idiots the better.
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Somone has mentioned the Gin Palaces in the marina – These boats consume 30 gallons per hour or in car terms, ONE MILE TO THE GALLON !!!!! Tax their fuel !
Also, what about thouse residents with large houses with heated swimming pools? They should be charged an environmental levy. (The data is readilly available from the Parish Rates Returns)
If the environment is that sick, tax aviation fuel at similar rates to road fuel. This would quadruple an airlines fuel bill, with teh effect that flying would then only be available for the very rich.
Terry has really lost the plot on this one. He needs to define Gas Guzzlers. I have spent the day running errands delivering stuff, and ferrying people arround in my estate car. I could not have managed what I have done today in a Citroen C1 or similar !
At the day, environmental taxes don’t affect me. I don’t have to pay rent, and my mortgage is a pittance. Pitty the next generation starting out and servicing a large mortgage while raising a family.
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#29 (Clare) ‘I have a 2.8i petrol estate which I use for …travelling to various spots for walking my dog’
A double whammy….
Nice one Clare. Good to see the green credentials on show. Do you know dogs are significantly more damaging to the planet than SUVs?
Read more at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ethicalman/2009/11/time_to_eat_the_pets.html
For those of you who have already woken up and ‘smelt the bacon’ (so to speak) regarding the ludicrously high carbon pawprints of dogs and don’t want to read the full BBC article, here is the link they give to a recipe for dog stew……
http://wolf.ok.ac.kr/~annyg/english/e5.htm
Simples…
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When Terry pays for his parking, like we all have to, I MIGHT pay more attention.
If Alan Breckon had won the Chief Minister vote, we would all be in good shape and heading in the right direction, an Island run with a heart and soul, for the good of those who live here.
Under the CoM which sadly Terry is a clan member, this Island continues to be run by bankers.
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Magnolia Man you are so fickle. Moaning about companies not paying tax, and boat owners not paying tax on their fuel. On another story you are supporting taking down JT in favour of Companies who don’t pay Jersey Tax. You should be a politician!
You want the right to choose your telco, well I want the right to drive the car of my choice, and pay the tax via the fueI use.
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#62 pickles: ‘what about taxing company cars . your not going to tell me that with the amount of aston martins over here people went in and paid cash for them . high rollers get company cars we could only dream of’
In fact, a company car is taxed as a benefit in kind on the employee who is provided with it.
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Red Herring ..or what….this overspending….immigration allowing Government just want more tax quids off us…they couldn’t give a monkeys about emissions or engines….just more of your dosh….think about it.
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#68 George
I’m afraid you’re wrong. C&W, Airtel will pay tax in Jersey at 20 per cent because they’re utility compamnies.
Incidentally, if you ask questions in a thread, why not check the thread to see whether someone has answered it? Please see post 53:
http://www.thisisjersey.com/2009/11/12/80-jobs-to-go-at-jersey-telecom/#comment-48445
Perhaps it is you who should be a politician?!
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GTR I may be dim-witted dear, but I am having a lot of fun whilst being so. Some people just enjoy driving. I don’t see anything wrong with that. As for comments made further down about the dog producing CO2, well I mean, how far do you want to go with this… what do you want me to do exactly..eat my dog so I can reduce my carbon footprint.
GTR, u sound like a complete BOF
TBH if they tax bigger engines, I will pay the tax. I don’t have to. I want to.
Bring it on Le Main! Stop all these fools from whinging on and on and on! Hopefully they will be happy to feel ‘Holier Than Thou’ whilst seated in their Prius’ etc. Fair play.
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If the Sen. is really introducing this as a ‘green’ tax he should be calling for it to be included on marine/agricultural/aviation/heating fuel too, or at least justifying why he is not.
I don’t disagree with a tax on polluters, but it has to be a fair tax, and what he’s proposed it seems isn’t.
Also, the idea that this tax is to be used to fund a specific service, the ‘Hoppa’, is daft; St Helier, the town, is about a mile across there is no need for a bus service design to encourage the ‘lazy’ out of their cars for such short distances.
All that said, I do think there’s a case to be made to get inappropriate vehicles off the road, but use an argument directly to achieve this, don’t try and jump on the coattails of environmentalism.
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Now we can see why the states housing is in such a bad shape, Terry has confused himself thinking he works for transport and technical! If these guys got on with the job there supposed to be doing maybe just maybe states rental would be a better place to live!
As stated before people who use more fuel pay more tax, This is just another hairbrained effort by some states members to get more money out of us in a stealth like way, I know Jersey is burning a big hole in the ozone layer with our power station, millions of cars and our industries oh and don’t forget all the plastic bags we use. Its terrible! Maybe we should look at the way China or India or even America do hings, they can build what they like and produce as much CO2 they like. Dont ever believe the (were going green) effort by these countries at no tax expense, The bigger they expand in the next ten years they will have doubled the quota for CO2 emmissions they have signed up to reduce! Blame Jersey it makes TAX yet an island this size will have no impact on the green issue (Fact)! We are being treated like idiots, How can you penalise people with tax and let most of the world get away with it! In other words were paying so China can build more coal fired power plants!
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James Knight,
Hi
You are correct with the diesel motor using less fuel than a petrol car, problem is its not just the carbon emissions, its the size of the particle dust that comes out of the engine, From what i can remember its called DD114 which is the same size and has a simmilar effect to asbestos! Diesel cars are called dirty engines, thats why diesel over 5 years went from being 40p a litre to over £1.00. Its a false market and even car makers have stopped putting Diesel is greener in there sales advertising!
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I have a 4×4 and a moped. I either walk to work in town or use the moped and I use my 4×4 rarely apart from when I take it off the island. It is totally unfair for people like myself to have to pay a high tax just to own the vehicle which contributes very little to any pollution over here. We should pay tax on the fuel, the more you use the more you pay, this is the only fair way to tax vehicles.
(oh and by the way I may be only 5 ft 6 but the car is not a shopping wagon and I can actually drive it in 4w drive and know the width of it!!!)
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I think we should make motoring far more expensive, meaning only those that can afford to taxes drive.
This would mean that poor people get forced off the road leaving more room for my big car.
About time we got back to motoring being pleasurable and the preserve of the wealthy. There are far too many people driving little cars cluttering up the place.
Much like flying used to be – let’s make that more expensive as well.
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Jeremy the point is there are far too many large vehicles being driven by people. If they were all small then you would get more on the road at one time. You would be able to drive along the narrower roads without being forced to reverse due to someone driving too large a vehicle for them to manage it properly.
A way to sort this out would be to tax all vehicles above a certain size per mile of road driven and to exempt the smaller vehicles. If this didn’t have the desired effect then employ my cunning plan of banning vehicles over a certain length from using the main roads as much as possible so forcing them into congestion bottle necks up narrow country lanes whilst making it easier to get around in a smaller vehicle on the main roads.
If people don’t mind paying money maybe the cost of incurring another 30-60 mins in a traffic jam both ways everyday might focus their minds a bit more? You never know some might still be there when it was time to go home.
It would also improve their driving skills especially reversing into and out of muddy field entrances. Another added benefit would be that these vehicles would need to be cleaned more often leading to either people being kept fit cleaning them or aiding the local economy by taking them in to get them cleaned. Also the increased number of scratches and biffs would help the local garages keep afloat in these hard times.
What do you think Jeremy?
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Im was wondering what a BOF is clare, then i realised you were refering to my “balls of fire”.
I guess thats why ive got a stunning chick on my arm.
Guess it beats going around in an old
Ford capri 2.8i ripping up the council estate tarmacadam.
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Will this include Condor with their huge plumes of thick black smoke that belows out and then hangs over the sea
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#75, My Diesel car has a particle trap. Do Jersey buses?
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4×4 bean You must be the one exception that proves the rule….I assume you do not drive with a mobile glued to your ear either,taking no notice of other road users either
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I have a big thirsty car that uses fuel quicker than a cruise liner!!
But I l walk to work, walk our daughter to nursery and spend a maximum of £10 per week on fuel.
This tax idea is fundamentally flawed as I am sure my carbon footprint for the short amount of pleasure I get from my weekly drive is less than most of the commuters who drive there environmentally friendly cars.
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For James Knight and anyone interested
This is regarding diesel polution, here is site that might help understand DD-114s and why diesel has gone from being once known as a green fuel to a dirty fuel, it is actually worse for your body than you think. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleListURL&_method=list&_ArticleListID=1096808642&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=56d77803230b36da077aa12822aea331, in response to your question, if when you start the car from cold and there is smoke it is the minute particles of dust passing through the filter. Filters unfortunatly can not clean the smaller particles out of the fumes, there that small! Also the filter needs to be changed on a six month period to make it efficient and as clean as possible. If you see a Jersey bus with smoke coming out of the exhaust then you have your answer. Petrol cars only smoke when there is a problem with the engine.
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8 out of 10 dogs 66.
Mother nature created dogs but she didn’t create cars!
Therefore, she obviously made room for our pets in her plans. However, I doubt if she expected her favourite species “humans” to fill the planet with ‘air-polluting’ cars and trash!
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Tricky, no I don’t drive with a mobile stuck to my ear as this annoys me intensely, whatever size vehicle someone is driving.
Unfortunately I frequently have to reverse my big 4×4 into fields etc to make way for the little cars who think they are driving buses and take up the whole road, so it just shows that it is skill and not size that matters!!!
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How are gas guzzlers to be defined?
We recently changed our mini for a 4×4. The mini did 26 to the gallon the 4×4 does 25 to the gallon.
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As said a number of times improve the bus service I have a 4 x4 as I have two kids and three times a week pick up another two kids re school lifts. I afraid people carries are just as bad for the environment , so stop making this a crusade against 4×4 If we were able to put our children on the school bus then I would be happier to use a smaller car , however all children going to primary schools are not supposed to catch the school bus . Surely if the buses are going straight to the schools younger children should be able to take them !!! It would reduce the traffic by a large percentage I know a number of people who would be interested.
Also isn’t traffic just going to get worse and worse if we have no form of population control ? More and more houses are being built and there are alot of people having more than two children surely we have to implement something to control the island s population growth ?
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Who has the right to cast judgement on another persons possesions without giving a realistic and founded arguement first. I own multiple cars for multiple occasions and live too far from town to walk with no public transport getting me into town before I am due to start work at 6:45. We all hate being stuck in a traffic jam but that’s life, why do we presume that we are above a spot of traffic!
I used to live in both Australia and Los Angeles and I would have a two hour commute both in the morning and the evening in traffic that by reading most peoples comments above would be beyond you’re comprehension!
I don’t blame anyone for having a 4×4, they are safe and when driven around at Jersey speeds you will find surprisingly economic, unlike the little cars screaming down the Avenue trying to overtake each other that I see EVERY evening going home because they are somehow more pressed to get home than the rest of the populus! I am not saying that big is better than small for ecomony or the environment but its how you use it that makes the biggest difference. I personally only use my 4×4 for towing my trailer which with another car on it weighs nearly two tons, so by law a small car cannot tow this weight!
I do however believe that I should pay for my apparently naughty pleasures according to how much I use them, mileage is irrelevant as while I am stuck in traffic whatever car I am in is definately using more juice than a smart car so the only fair way is to increase tax on fuel and punish those of us who use more of it!
Finally electric cars only work in the perfect environment, petrol cars are only around 40% efficient however unless the power to charge your milk float is coming from a nuclear source then this means that to develop the same amount of energy to transport you from A to B as a petrol car the electric one is actually using more power as ‘old fashion’ power stations only dream of being 40% efficient! This is not even mentioning the fact that to put your expensive milk float together parts are manuafactured all over the world and then shipped to a central place in Japan to be assembled and then it is shipped to the UK then to Jersey! It would take you nearly 30 years of ‘efficient’ motoring to counteract the damage that this initial shipping did!
Before people get on the high horses know the facts and if you don’t believe me look them up! They are not hidden! If you are going to shout about a cause you should do us all the justice of knowing what you are talking about. Oh, and how about coming up with a good idea to help get the gas guzzlers off the road instead of just complaining about it, I presume you all took part in the recent States of Jersey public transport survey on their website!!! Well I would hope so with such strong views!
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Some people’s attitude towards drivers really is getting insane.
If we want to discuss environmental concerns then more 20mph limits is BAD for the environment. That’s fact.
If we want to discuss injuries to cyclists and pedestrians then 20mph limits is not the way to deal with that matter either. A few points that need made:
1) If we want less accidents then we need politicians with the b***s to stop bad drivers from driving. Actually BAN people who have proven themselves to be an outright danger (check Pier Road and the Avenue and you’ll find them all). You can have a whole island of 10mph limits and you will still get bad drivers and people that are a danger on the road! These plans penalise perfectly safe drivers but do NOTHING to stop the ones causing the problem.
2) The majority of drivers drive at a suitable speed for the road and conditions even if that means driving BELOW the speed limit of that road. This is specifically the case when passing concealed junctions. Start being tougher on people that don’t! They are much more dangerous than someone doing 35mph in a stretch of road with good visibility that happens to be a 30mph area.
3) I want someone to give us the truthful figures around responsibility for pedestrian v vehicle and bike v vehicle accidents. I am very observant when driving on the road and it is clear to me that the vast majority of pedestrians and cyclists have little (if any) idea of the rules of the road or of what their own responsibility is when using the road. The highway code is NOT just for car drivers, it is also for cyclists and pedestrians. Too many pedestrians and cyclists make themselves completely invisible on the road, too many behave irresponsibly (whether drunk or not), and too manyhave no regard for their own safety.
It is time that EVERYone takes responsibility for their behaviour when using the road. Start coming down hard on pedestrians and cyclists that are not visible at night. Come down hard on those that do not behave responsibly while on the road. The road is a shared resource and it is time we were all held accountable for our bad behaviour on it.
The States need to leave the majority of drivers alone and start tackling the real causes of the problem. Of course they won’t, because then they (and the Police) ACTUALLY have to work! Much easier to set up cameras etc and just penalise safe drivers who happen to be a little over the limit. That’s how much they really care about their constituents I guess!
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Great News, I am not a 4×4 fiend and that must have the biggest and best better then next door, so happy days on an island that is 42 square miles, the question is why? I know because you can! Well start thinking about others and being greedy materialistic like some previous members of the gov. Incidentally, if I wanted I could own the guzzlers paradise too! My children’s children will thank me.
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States, just get your house in order and stop taxing us on every luxury, you’re distroying this Island, start with controling expediture in PSD, Education and the hospital, time you had someone looking at what they are blowing our money on, its cheaper to live in central London now.
)
Get rid of half of those who work in states departments, they wouldn’t know a days work if it slapped them in the face and while we are at it get rid of the Unions, they are the other half of the problem. lets get tax down!!
Roy Travert for Senator.
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Leah Holmes #90
WOW,That broke the soapbox, I am in complete agreement.
I AM ASTOUNDED
Someone has actually got the audacity to tell people they have some responsibility towards their own as well as others safety.
Bet that’s one in the eye for all those health and safety leach lawyers out there.
I especially like the bit about the need to drive below the speed limit should the conditions require (drive WITH due care and attention to other road users)Please visit this site.
http://www.jerseylaw.je/Law/display.aspx?url=lawsinforce%2fconsolidated%2f25%2f25.550_RoadTrafficLaw1956_RevisedEdition_1January2008.htm#Toc191788472
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Have you seen the state of the Jeresy roads lately – you need a 4X4 just to get from A to B without wrecking your suspension.
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Its all a CON stop believing the fake science its you choice and your money there are 10′S of thousands of scientists not working for Oil companies with real green credentials that are having none of it.
Probably one of Britain’s best know Dr David Bellamy says its fake and is very upset the BBC and other mainstream media just keep quiet about it and other real green issues.
If you don’t like 4buy4′s that is not the point and if there are enough people against them then ask for something to be done about it.
This as many have said is a TAX scam on a global scale. If you want to be free you better start looking into stuff as this is just one aspect of fake science and global corruption.
STOP TALKING AND START THINKING for the sake of Your self and your great grand children. I used to believe a lot of the media but you need to think on and support free speech and uncontrolled press
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So, for those of you who think we should get a Prius or similar, just bear in mind these cars are more damaging to the environment, not from being driven but from production. The materials used in these cars are extracted from the earth, shipped half way round the world for processing, once processed shipped half way back around the world for manufacturing, then shipped all over the world to the car manufacturers. Not only are all these ships contributing badly to emissions, but the material production adds to it to, so whilst on paper these cars look great and GREEN, they are far from it.
I drive V8 car, it’s not a 4×4, has almost 500bhp and I love it. I don’t have it to make up for inadequacies, I have it because I love driving, speed and whilst I am young enough and able enough to do so shall enjoy every moment I get behind the wheel.
Sort out the school runs would be a great start, and yes, restrict parking and car types allowed in the town centre by all means, wouldn’t bother me.
Tax on petrol is the best way, it’s in place and works and those that use their car more, or have less economical cas, will pay more, The User Pays is the best way ahead.
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I have to agree with #95 that environmental taxes are just a con and part of a global Tax Scam. The media is often very selective as to what it reports on this issue, but unfortunately joe public gets taken in and believes that the world is domed.
Back in the 1970′s it was thought that Oil would run out in ten years, and this was used as an excuse back then to raise prices. Well of course oil has not run out, usuers of oil have become more fuel efficient but the excuse to extract cash by way of base price or taxes continues.
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George #67
I always see Senator Le Main getting on /off the bus at Snow Hill when The States are sitting.
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I understand if ppl NEED bigger cars/trucks but i dont understand the ‘I want’ ppl. those familys with 1 child decide they need a bigger car and buy a massive 4×4, which are off road cars (or where in the old days) the only time these 4×4′s see off road is when they park on the pavement to pick the child up from school. Most of these massive cars/gas eating cars are a status symbols of look at me and my expensive car ppl. Thats fine if u want to look like that but you are helping to distroy the earth for everyone else and in all fairness i agree with the tax to a certin degree. they have raised taxes on airline over the last few years so y not cars? some ppl really care about carbon footprints etc.. and in this day and age its all about discourging carbon emissions and trying to save the planet.
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95 and 97 Hallelujah….could it be that some people in the island are waking up to what is being done and not misdirected by lies…nearly spilt my coffee in joy at seeing truth acknowledged……Thank you, my cockles felt the warmth…perhaps there is hope.
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I sometimes see the Man At The Top parking his big 4WD Lexus in his private space at the States Building and think that he’s setting a great example. If it’s good enough for him…..
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First things first the ignorants who chose to post comments here need to get a clue. If everyone on the island drove a 4×4 from tomorrow onwards, the comparative increase in c02 emissions on a global scale would be immeasurable. You can have an issue with people who drive 4x4s (or any of the other cute terms you funny bunch have come up with for them) for one reason and one reason alone – you do not like it or hold an OPINION of them.
Don’t for a second think you can hide behind the guise of being ‘environmentally concious’ because if you actually looked at the raw numbers and facts you would see for yourself just how little impact us Humans and our cars have on global c02 output.
Instead you chose to be led like a sheep by the Government herders who conjure up this illusion that you and your heroic hybrid actions make any damn difference. If you want to be ‘environmentally aware’ then more power to you, go for it. But keep it to yourself, those of us who can think and read for ourselves do not need to have fingers pointed at us like we are committing the heinous of crimes imaginable.
As for the tax, I do not even need to echo the blatant flaws in their criteria already stated, ridiculous. As stupid as a question it may be do the States actually have any expert advisers with half a brain cell for matters like these. Someone who will turn around and state the obvious for them akin to “You do realise that engine capacity has an extremely loose and rather laughable correlation to emissions when looking at it from a tax perspective, and poor maintenance of a 1.0 litre rot box with a shafted catalytic converter, running lean and leaking oil into the cylinders is likely to have far greater emissions than even some engines of two times the capacity”
This should of been thrown out for revision in the first instance. You tax based on usage, or is this a trend we are likely to see in other areas? Screw 20/20, let uss tax everyone 5 grand – that ought to do it! By the looks of it that proposal is mighty sound to the kinds of people coming up with this emissions taxing. Gets a green light on the States of Jersey Taxation software.
- Input Required Funds
- Input arbitrary taxation criteria
- Press Start
*some crunching later*
Out pops the above taxation proposal.
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Agreed with most of the statements against this tax. Unless they can come up with some hardcore facts (there isn’t any) they should not be allowed to come up with arbitrary numbers pulled out of a hat, that’s the best analogy I think you could tie with what they have just done.
In I’ll outright refuse to pay and carry on driving. It’s not right they can just introduce tax on something that has not been proven to cause harmful effects to our planet.
In the late 70′s early 80′s wasn’t it the same? Then we seemed to forget about it and here we are again, except the media buzz call it “warming” instead of “cooling”.
No doubt schools are indoctrinating kids to believe all this bile.
First they’d need classify each individual car on mileage (actual mileage) and emissions (not emissions at idle like most manufacturers do to make it seem low). An old car is more likely to be worse in that dept than a newer more powerful car. A simple blanket tax on engine capacity is outright stupidity and daylight robbery.
Even then, who’s to say we don’t have our cars remapped for a more fuel efficient option? I know I do.
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It is looking almost certain that a deal will be signed in Copenhagen that will reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 2020.
The UK will be a signatory and as they hold responsibilty for Jersey’s foreign affairs it will mean that we will have effectively signed as well.
A memo will be sent from London to the top men and women over here headed ‘Green taxes – You will do the following’.
A few months later the CoM and the Constables will be mobilised to force the Green Bill through the States.
End of story!
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