Turn the problem upside down
Thursday 12th November 2009, 3:00PM GMT.
From Basil Lelliott.
I SEE the dispute over who should, and who shouldn’t, be entitled to sit on the benches of the States Chamber has reared its head again, a problem that seems unsolvable. Senators out? Constables out?
Too many States Members? Round and round we go again, and it’s the parish Deputies that seem to shout the loudest.
Well, I was always taught: if there is a problem you cannot solve, turn it upside down, and look at it from another angle. So, let’s take a look.
Senators: Islandwide vote = a good thing.
Constables: Parish-wide vote = a good thing.
Deputies: An insignificant number of votes from, in some cases, a small parish, or an even smaller district from a parish. Leaving most Islanders without a vote in their election = a bad thing.
Even the title Deputy, for a people’s representative, sounds wrong; it suggests someone acting under the guidance of a headman. So terminate the position of Deputies.
Now, Senators’ Islandwide vote = a good thing. Problem. If you increase the number of Senators there will not be enough room at the hustings to accommodate all the candidates. Answer: Cut the Island into two – east and west. Six eastern parishes with 15 Senators and six western parishes with 15 Senators. A total of 30 Senators whom thousands could vote for, unlike Deputies whom only hundreds of electors can vote for.
The Constables: Parish-wide vote = a good thing. They represent the feelings of the people of the parish and should be upholding the traditions and culture of the Island. After all, if you like the Island enough to live here, you hardly want to change it too much.
I believe that with the Deputies gone, the Constables’ elections would become more attractive, with a larger amount of people coming forward to stand for that position.
So we are now in the position of 15 eastern Senators and 15 western Senators. A total of 30 Senators plus 12 Constables = 42 States Members. Now you could either cut the remaining seats, thus gaining a saving in money, or have the remaining number of Members stand in all-Island elections, in order to be in a position to gain a ministerial seat. From which the States Members themselves could choose who to elect into high office.
Of course I submit this knowing it’s not the ideal answer, but I think it’s closer to democracy than we have now. Whether it gets considered by those in power or not depends how much they pay lip service to the meaning of the word democracy.
If they need any help in understanding the meaning of the word, it is: ‘Government in which the supreme power is held by the people.’
The Queen's Diamond Jubilee
JEP Jubilee Editions
Saturday 2 June: Guide to Celebrations
Wednesday 6 June: Souvenir of Events
View The Queen in Jersey supplement
Travel
To, from and around the Island
Airport Arrivals/Departures
Harbours Arrivals/Departures
Bus Information/Timetables
This is Jersey
Jersey Evening Post
Useful links
Good idea
But how would Geoff and his JDA cronies manage to get elected without exploiting small pockets of left wingers in bedsit land ?
Open up their voter base to a more represented cross section of population and they would be dead in water.
Again what a good idea.
Report abuse
Good Idea basically there are two many members you need the constables as they are closer to the people and and essential to the community spirit.
I need to be convinced why we need the Deputies therefore saving money.
Report abuse
What has been forgotten that Jersey is an island with an area of 45 square miles and a population of less than 90,000 souls.
What has not been mentioned is that defence and foreign affairs do not fall within the purview of the island’s administration.
What has also conveniently been ignored is that Jersey is smaller than most English towns in its size and in its population, too.
Let us rid ourselves of all the pomp and flummery. We most definitely do not need what really amounts to nothing more than a “county council” with 53 members.
I could also suggest that we do not need a supreme leader with an archaic title who is not elected but who takes up his office through a system of “Buggin’s turn”. Our Supreme Leader comes from a single profession on the island to the total exclusion of everyone else.
A potential island supremo has no chance if he (never “she”) does not need a horsehair wig and a silk gown as part of the tools of his trade.
Exeter in Devon is a local authority of a similar size and population to Jersey, and it manages very well indeed.
It also manages to balance its books, too.
Report abuse
While Udupi’s comments have hit the nail on the head, particularly in relation to the titular head of the Island’s government, he/she could also have cited another UK local authority with characteristics similar to our own: the Isle of Wight.
Population: 132,000. Number of legislators: 40
By comparison, Jersey has a population of less than 100,000. Number of legislators: 53.
Can anyone (and this includes States Assembly members of any grade; please do not be shy_ explain why Jersey needs a legislature of 53 men and women?
Can anyone explain why a Church of England incumbent has the right to sit in the States Assembly?
Can anyone explain why the so-called Law Officers sit in the States Assembly? By definition, they are employees of the States, so how can they legislate as well?
Can anyone explain why twelve Constables (who really are simply the equivalents of Parish Council chairmen if we give them a modern title) get two bites of the legislative cherry?
Let’s leave the qustion of the anachronistic and risible Honorary Police out of the question altogether. Why do we have to pay tax for the SoJP AND all those part-time, self-important Keystone Cops as well?
These questions call for answers. Anyone can join the debate, and as I wrote earlier members of the States Assembly will be particularly welcome.
Report abuse
I suggested something similar at the time of the debates on reform of the States. I divided the island into 3 – West, Central (Trinity & St. Helier)and East. There is roughly the same number of electorate in each district, and each district is a mix of urban and rural. There was some interest, but not enough for the States Members involved to put it forward.
Report abuse
Pro Bono Publico #4
“Let’s leave the qustion of the anachronistic and risible Honorary Police out of the question altogether. Why do we have to pay tax for the SoJP AND all those part-time, self-important Keystone Cops as well?”
If you would like to rephrase your insulting comments to ones more fitting of an educated person, I would be only too pleased to relieve your ignorance.
Report abuse
PBP in answer to your question
Jersey doesn’t need 53 states members.
The CoE person needs removing he shouldn’t be in a political chamber. He is unelected. This wouldn’t happen in a democracy.
The Law Officers shouldn’t be there. They are unelected anyway. This wouldn’t happen in a democracy.
The Constables shouldn’t be in the states as they are responsible for their parishes and should stay there. They also skew the popular vote to the right and thus act against change.
As per HP’s this were from times before the Police existed. Should they still be around now? Is 13 police forces too much for 45 square miles?
One perceived problem with the HP’s is one of favouritism. For example would a HP officer prosecute a member of their own family when they turned up at the scene of an accident if they could blame the other party?
Report abuse
Adrian
“One perceived problem with the HP’s is one of favouritism. For example would a HP officer prosecute a member of their own family when they turned up at the scene of an accident if they could blame the other party?”
In this situation, procedure dictates the officer pass the investigation/prosecution over to another officer who would not have a conflict of interests. If the HP officer were one of the drivers it would be passed onto the SoJP to investigate.
Could your “perceptions” not also apply if it were a SoJP officer who was related to the offender.
Methinks you need to stand up when talking, you are muffled.
Please research before casting such nasturtiums.
We are lucky in Jersey we have 2 police forces the SoJP and the HP, 2 separate agencies who also police each other.
Report abuse
In response to PJG (no. 6), who doubtless has a vested interest:
I stick by my description of the “Honorary” Police.
The organisation is anachronistic given that Jersey maintains a paid, professional police force – like every other jurisdiction.
The “Honorary” Police are rather like drone bees in a hive: one of them, at best, has any tangible purpose in life.
At best, the institution is a springboard for people trying to get into local politics.
We are well into the 21st century, PJG. Is it not time that we rid ourselves of superfluous flummery?
Report abuse
Pro Bono Publico #9
Thank you for your “opinion”, faulted as it may be.
Without being too long winded the Honorary polices main function is prosecution not investigation that’s the main function of SoJP.
To rid us of the honorary police, and pass on their functions to the SoJP would need an increase of millions in taxes and rates per year.
Do you have a vested interest in that?
About me you say “who doubtless has a vested interest”
I repeat for your particular attention. To make assumptions makes an ASS out of U not ME
Report abuse
PJG, whose almost devout support of the Honorary Police convinces me more and more that he is a member of that organisation. Nevertheless, there is nothing wrong in that; quite the contrary.
However, when he stoutly declares that “We are lucky in Jersey we have 2 police forces the SoJP and the HP, he loses contact with reality.
Just why does a population of +/- 90,000 people, living on an island with an area of 45 square miles need two police forces? PJG does not bother to explain why “we are lucky” in that respect.
Two police forces operating on the same “patch” are unheard of anywhere else in the world.
As for “2 separate agencies who also police each other”, this is absurd. They do nothing of the sort. The truth is that this cosy symbiosis (or scratching each other’s back) ties in neatly with “the Jersey way” of doing things
HM Inspector of Constabulary audits the activities of the States of Jersey Police periodically. This organisation is independent of “vested interests”. The trouble is that no audit of our local police force(s) has been undertaken for some years.
But somehow I do not think PJG would be interested in a root and branch audit of the necessity for two police foces.
Report abuse
Udupi #11
We agree, “there is nothing wrong with that”.
You are easily convinced ref your assumption on me though.
for you a short explanation of why “We are lucky !”
The list of money savings to the community are an extremely long list, too long to mention all here. From the extra lawyers who would have to be hired to prosecute in the magistrates court to retainers that would have to be paid to special constables who would only if ever be used in an major disaster. Would we still have Jersey live, Battle of flowers, Air display etc if the organisers had to pay the SoJP hourly rate for policing their events ? To import officers from UK just in case would be prohibitively expensive. Who would enforce the curfews imposed by our courts. Our Parish hall system is respected world wide for its benefit to the community, especially our youth.
What more do you want for nothing, BLOOD, and just in case you do, are you aware an Honorary officer “has” died during the execution his duty ?
Not too sure what you mean by the same patch. HP are primarily prosecution and support SoJP in routine policing. HP “DO NOT” investigate.
Two or more police forces operate in many countries, as in Jersey they overlap for the good of the public. Even UK has many agencies MI 5 CI 5 etc America CIA, FBI,State police, to state just a few.
To answer your worries about who polices who.
Any complaints against an Honorary officer are investigated by the SoJP Jersey Police and referred to, “The Jersey Police Complaints Authority” this is an independent organisation set up by the States of Jersey under the Police (Complaints and Discipline) (Jersey) Law 1999. Its members are appointed by the States for a period of 3 years – their services are purely voluntary. The role of the Authority is to oversee, monitor and supervise the investigation by the States Police of certain complaints made by members of the public against States of Jersey police officers and “Honorary police officers”. The Authority’s responsibilities are to ensure that the investigations that it supervises are carried out in an impartial, thorough and meticulous manner.”
Hope that puts your mind to rest.
As I have said before, I too was once ignorant of the varied and vast amount of work the HP do.
I took the time and effort to find out what they
actually do do.
The HP is not a secret society they are very open in all they do. A visit to http://www.jerseyhonorarypolice.org/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=2&MMN_position=1:1
can be very educational.
Report abuse
Re: Legislation
The Constables are elected as Parish administrators, not legislators; get them out the States for starters, and then let’s consider whether one island of 90,000 people needs to be split into 12 grossly unequal administrative districts anyway.
The Deputies represent tiny groups of people, yet vote on island-wide issues; when was the last time any law was debated in the States that effected only one district? Get rid of them from the States.
There isn’t a God, so why is he represented by an unelected member.
The assembly should be one class with an island-wide mandate, somewhere between 30-50 members with 5year terms of office.
Re: The Police
The problem is not that there is two Police forces(actually there’s 13!); the problem is the standard of Policing.
My experience of the HP is that they are massively inconsistent to how they operate; it’s all very well PJG knowing how the HP operate on paper, but they do not work like that in practice.
It’s a fact that depending on who you are you will receive different treatment from certain Centeniers; this cause extreme resentment and distrust of the HP. It may not be that the Centeniers are in anyway dishonest, just not competent; either way it’s not a good or fair system, and it needs to be done away with.
Some of the same criticisms could be raised against the SoJ force too, but they at least are more directly accountable. The HP is seen as an old boys club, with complaints difficult to make.
Report abuse
J Lamborrari you say at #10
Some of the same criticisms could be raised against the SoJ force too, but they at least are more directly accountable. The HP is seen as an old boys club, with complaints difficult to make.
I hope my post at #12 allays some of you concerns that the HP is not as accountable as the SoJP, The “The Jersey Police Complaints Authority IS an independent body.
Also some say look at the magistrates court, depending on the magistrate “you will receive different treatment”
This is a common misconception by the offender, Sanctions differ depending on the degree of severity committed under the particular offence and indeed on the attitude of the offender, are they remorseful etc.
Two DICs talking in the pub will always say “justice is who you know. I know someone who got caught drinking more ( everybody says they were just over the limit) than me and they had a lesser sentence , when really its justice “trying” to fit the crime AND the offender.
You are right, human error can be a worry, But is that not so in all walks of life ?
Report abuse
@ PJG
“…I hope my post at #12 allays some of you concerns…”
It doesn’t; like I said, it’s all very well working on paper, but in practice it’s very different.
“…Two or more police forces operate in many countries, as in Jersey they overlap for the good of the public. Even UK has many agencies MI 5 CI 5 etc America CIA, FBI,State police, to state just a few…”
You can’t seriously compare an island of 90,000 people with any one state in the US!
And if you’re going to include CI5 as a UK force you’ll want to include Le Bureau des Étrangers, as both are fictitious TV entities I believe!
Report abuse
J Lamborrari #15
Glad someone noticed CI5 I was beginning to think the worst. If you really think there is only one police force in the UK visit, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UK_Police_forces.
We have the Jersey Police Complaints Authority. Even if the HP were disbanded this would still be your recourse to a complaint against SoJP. If its unfair what exactly do you want? Are you prepared to accept the inevitable loss of prestige events and the increase in rates and taxes if this disbanding were to happen?
It really is a shame that you have allowed the questionable experience of one insurance matter to sour your opinion of the HP. Have you thought about using the Jersey Police Complaints Authority. Then “IF” as you say “they do not work like that in practice” you will have done something for the protection of others instead of just making noise.
Of coarse alternately you could always employ the talents of Stuart Syvret, he’s not doing much at the mo.
Report abuse
PJG said somewhere in one of his numerous postings: “the Honorary polices main function is prosecution not investigation that’s the main function of SoJP”
Leaving PJG’s elementary spelling error and his
bad grammar aside, I had always thought that prosecution is best left to experts.
After all, that is why the Jersey taxpayers are compelled to pay salaries to the Attorney-General, the Solicitor-General, the Batonnier, the Vicomte, and all their numerous assistants. On top of that is the professionally trained police force.
At least those learned men and women are professionals – unlike the amateur Honorary Police force.
Let’s face it; there is no logical justification for the continued existence of this self-serving anachronism. The sooner it is abolished on this island, the more money will be available for worthwhile, up to date, projects.
And PJG, just what have you added to the sum total of this debate by suggesting “of coarse alternately you could always employ the talents of Stuart Syvret, he’s not doing much at the mo”.
Yet another simple spelling error, but PJG’s entire argument is one huge mistake.
Report abuse
J Lamborrari stated in comment 13 that “there isn’t a God, so why is he represented by an unelected member”.
I wonder if the Son of God would be allowed to reside permanently in Jersey? He certainly would not qualify as a 1.1.(k)under the island’s present government.
Report abuse
Dear PJG
You stated in #12 “the list of money savings to the community are an extremely long list, too long to mention all here”.
On the contrary, we would be very interested to know of this “list of money savings to the community”.
Please do not be bashful, and do not take such a craven attitude as to hide behind an excuse of “too long to mention here”.
“The extra lawyers who would have to be hired to prosecute in the magistrates court to retainers that would have to be paid to special constables who would only if ever be used in an major disaster” makes no sense at all.
What “extra lawyers”? We have dozens of qualified advocates already on the States payroll. They include the Crown Officers and all their deputies, whose salaries you and I are already paying.
I would love to know more about the “retainers that would have to be paid to special constables”. Is not the Honorary Police just that – “honorary”?
Why would we need “special constables” if there is an island-wide paid police force already? Alternatively, are we to assume that all the deposed “honoraries” would sidle into the paid police when the parochial forces are abolished?
As for your bathetic (look it up) question “What more do you want for nothing, BLOOD, and just in case you do, are you aware an Honorary officer “has” died during the execution his duty” I want nothing for nothing.
Get used to the fact that the Honorary Police have no place in a modern Jersey, and while I regret any unnecessary loss of life in any occupation, it would be useful for you to tell us who this person was, and the circumstances of his demise.
Your assertions about duplication of police forces in other jurisdictions are patently preposterous and absurd. As another contributor has already pointed out “CI5″ is a fictional institution. I really thought you could do better than that, PJG!
You contradict yourself regarding who polices whom.
In your post #8 you wrote “We are lucky in Jersey we have 2 police forces the SoJP and the HP, 2 separate agencies who also police each other”.
However, in your post #12 you tell us about the Jersey Police Complaints Authority. Which is it: the “2 separate agencies who also police each other”, or the Complaints Authority? Make your mind up, please.
Finally, it is only YOU who suggests that the Honorary Police is a “secret society”; no one – apart from you – has even mentioned that.
PJG, overall, you are not really the best public relations person for the Honorary Police, are you?
Report abuse
PJG (number 10) told me “I repeat for your particular attention. To make assumptions makes an ASS out of U not ME”
Notwithstanding his admonition, PJG has made rather a lot of assumptions himself, making rather an ass of himself.
To list but a few:
Message no. 1: “But how would Geoff and his JDA cronies manage to get elected without exploiting small pockets of left wingers in bedsit land ?”
PJG doubtless knows which voters voted for Deputy Southern. How he knows this remains a mystery. Nevertheless, the Honorary Police could investigate it.
Message no.6 – again from the all-knowing PJG – is unadulterated rudeness.
He wrote, “If you would like to rephrase your insulting comments to ones more fitting of an educated person, I would be only too pleased to relieve your ignorance”.
Now then, PJG. That may be the way you and your Honorary Police buddies talk, but it does not cut any ice here.
Other correspondents have amply dealt with the remarks expressed in PJG’s message 8, so we will not embarrass PJG any further.
Message 10: PJG then went on to ask me:
“To rid us of the honorary police, and pass on their functions to the SoJP would need an increase of millions in taxes and rates per year.
Do you have a vested interest in that?”
No, it won’t, PJG, and no, I haven’t. Do you?
Message 14: PJG wrote, “The HP is seen as an old boys club, with complaints difficult to make”.
For once PJG is dead on the money! Yes, the Honorary Police is “seen as an old boys club”.
PJG’s snide comment (in message 16) telling another correspondent “of coarse alternately you could always employ the talents of Stuart Syvret, he’s not doing much at the mo” belittles Stuart Syvret’s public work over the last 19 years.
It was also a cowardly, underhand, and snivelling thing to say.
PJG’s stalwart championing of the Honorary Police has done absolutely nothing to enhance the reputations of any of the 12 parish forces.
Which is a great pity.
Report abuse
Deputy Tadier, speaking in the States Assembly on Wednesday 4 November 2009, said:
“We know that historically, in Jersey we can learn from the past, we only need to look at the case of the beast of Jersey, where because of the incestuous nature, when it came to giving his fingerprints into the police, he did not have to give his fingerprints because he knew a member of the Honorary Police, and he was allowed to roam free for the best part of a decade, when he could have been caught”.
The reference in Hansard is 2.1.16 for those who may wish to check.
It reminds me of the old adage that “there is no smoke without fire”.
Report abuse
PC 49 (ret.)
“I had always thought that prosecution is best left to experts.”
Does one have to be paid to be an expert ? a simple mistake to make even for you, a spelling monitor.
“Let’s face it; there is no logical justification for the continued existence of this self-serving anachronism. The sooner it is abolished on this island, the more money will be available for worthwhile, up to date, projects.”
Please explain how one can dispose of a group of unpaid prosecutors’ (which is what Centeniers do in the magistrates court) and replace them with extremely highly paid lawyers and save money ?
Please explain how the likes of the Battle of flowers, Jersey live, battle of Britain air display, Jersey marathon, Remembrance day poppy appeal, Sea cadets gun pull, Jersey Veterans day, Liberation Day celebrations, Santa’s parish visits, The many parades of marching bands and schoolchildren, To name but a few would be cheaper to organise without the time donated by HP officers. Would the SoJP have enough manpower to fill the gap without more recruitment ?
Would you like to comment on the suitability of having a highly trained SoJP officer directing traffic while the likes of drug dealers go undetected. ?
You appear to have an axe to grind please get to your point. If it because you think the HP are untrained you are wrong, The SoJP and their legal advisers now train the HP.
Udupi
““The extra lawyers who would have to be hired to prosecute in the magistrates court to retainers that would have to be paid to special constables who would only if ever be used in an major disaster” makes no sense at all.”
Who do you think will do these jobs if the HP were disbanded, the fairies ?
“However, in your post #12 you tell us about the Jersey Police Complaints Authority. Which is it: the “2 separate agencies who also police each other”, or the Complaints Authority? Make your mind up, please.”
IF you take the time to read my post you will find it quite simple really. A complaint against an HP officer is investigated by the SoJP under the scrutiny of the independent Jersey Police Complaints Authority
“Please do not be bashful, and do not take such a craven attitude as to hide behind an excuse of “too long to mention here”.”
I am not hiding behind anything, the list really is too long to mention here. I don’t know if you live in the island but if you do just think of any Island community event you have ever seen or heard of that needs policing and the HP are probably there selflessly giving their time.
“PJG, overall, you are not really the best public relations person for the Honorary Police, are you?”
In your opinion probably not.
In my opinion a better one than you.
A question to both of you.
Why have neither of you mentioned the Parish hall system, a system that is respected and envied worldwide. Perhaps its because you have seen the working of one that could explain your animosity towards the HP.
Report abuse
Pro Bono Publico #20
You start by saying
“Let’s leave the qustion (be careful the spelling monitor is about) of the anachronistic and risible Honorary Police out of the question altogether. Why do we have to pay tax for the SoJP AND all those part-time, self-important Keystone Cops as well?”
Then you say
“These questions call for answers. Anyone can join the debate, and as I wrote earlier members of the States Assembly will be particularly welcome.”
Then you say
“Message no.6 – again from the all-knowing PJG – is unadulterated rudeness.”
You really must learn to do unto others as you would have done to you.
So now, how about some facts to back up your views instead of just unsubstantiated dribble and whinnying on about what others are saying.
“It was also a cowardly, underhand, and snivelling thing to say”
Does this not accurately describe your comment” risible, self-important Keystone Cops”
Report abuse
@18 – Magnolia Man… come come we all know it would be 1.1(m) ….consent to a recognised religious body seeking to purchase or contract lease residential property….
Report abuse
4.Pro Bono Publico..what a beautiful post…accurate and to the point…and you did in fairness say “leaving out the H.P.” if what you suggest were implemented in a proper States Reform which I believe is desperately needed, what a far superior chance we would have of actually having democracy..I find it terribly disturbing that folks here seem to not mind that their fundamental rights are being eroded and that a Govt that claims to be a democracy is in fact not and is bogus to the core claiming on the world stage that it is..your example of church ,bods and other assorted NON elected individuals pulling strings ,affecting outcomes and manipulating both Government and the law ..is insidious and corrosive in a society that would like to consider itself modern and civilized…I utterly support what you say and would vote for you in a trice.
Report abuse
PC 49 (ret.)#17
you say “I had always thought that prosecution is best left to experts.”
Does one have to be paid to be an expert ?
Then you say “Let’s face it; there is no logical justification for the continued existence of this self-serving anachronism. The sooner it is abolished on this island, the more money will be available for worthwhile, up to date, projects.”
Please explain how one can dispose of a group of unpaid prosecutors’ (which is what Centeniers do in the magistrates court) and replace them with extremely highly paid lawyers and save money ?
Please explain how the likes of the Battle of flowers, Jersey live, battle of Britain air display, Jersey marathon, Remembrance day poppy appeal, Sea cadets gun pull, Jersey Veterans day, Liberation Day celebrations, Santa’s parish visits, The many parades of marching bands and schoolchildren, To name but a few would be cheaper to organise without the time donated by HP officers?
Would you also like to comment on the suitability of having a highly trained SoJP officer directing traffic while the likes of drug dealers go undetected. ?
You appear to think HP are untrained, you are wrong, The SoJP and their legal advisers now train the HP.
Report abuse
PC 49 (ret.)#21
If you must quote Deputy Tadier please quote all, not just the out of an context bit that suits your personal view of a debate
Deputy M. Tadier:when questioned on the accuracy of his statement as alluded to by PC 49 (ret.)answered
I can only go from what I have been told – anecdotal evidence. I know that whoever it was that took the fingerprints, or who failed to take the fingerprints of the beast of Jersey at the time, would have been whoever it was. I was told that it was an Honorary Police Officer. But the point remains, and first of all, this is not an attack on the Honorary Service. It is simply, I gave that example to elucidate the fact that there are bad apples and that people do tend to cover things up, and that things do not always come out. In clarification, I am simply speaking from stories that I have been told. If it was not an Honorary Police, if it was a States of Jersey Police person, then I am willing to retract that, but I am simply going from the stories I have been told from friends and family.
It reminds you of the old adage that “there is no smoke without fire
It reminds me of the justice dealt out to the Birmingham 6
Report abuse
Let us try (yet again) to remove the sands of self-satisfaction from PJG’s eyes.
1. PJG wrote, “You really must learn to do unto others as you would have done to you”.
That is meaningless in the context of this debate.
2. PJG wrote, “So now, how about some facts to back up your views instead of just unsubstantiated dribble and whinnying on about what others are saying”
I, and Udupi, and Pro Bono Publico, and Dot, and Adrian, and J Lamborrari, and J.Cat, and truthseeker have been expressing our opinions, in exactly the same way as you have, PJG. No more and no less.
Your problem, PJG, is that none of us agrees with you.
3. PJG asked me “Please explain how one can dispose of a group of unpaid prosecutors’ (which is what Centeniers do in the magistrates court) and replace them with extremely highly paid lawyers and save money?”
Simple. You send them a letter, explaining that their services are no longer required, and that the Island is going to rely on **trained** and **qualified** lawyers in future.
If we do not, the States of Jersey may find itself having to pay yet more legal fees in defending appeals to the European Court of Human Rights on the grounds of improper and unsafe prosecutions initiated by unqualified legally unqualified, amateur, Centeniers.
4. PJG then asked, “Please explain how the likes of the Battle of flowers, Jersey live, battle of Britain air display, Jersey marathon, Remembrance day poppy appeal, Sea cadets gun pull, Jersey Veterans day, Liberation Day celebrations, Santa’s parish visits”
Forty-three police forces in England and Wales manage to control all manner of public events without assistance from hobby bobbies. It is not beyond the wit of the Chief Officer of the SoJP to do the same – using professional and **trained** police officers.
5. PJG then asked, “Would you also like to comment on the suitability of having a highly trained SoJP officer directing traffic while the likes of drug dealers go undetected. ?”
You know, PJG, the last time I looked as I drove up Rouge Bouillon, I could have sworn I saw more than one SoJP officer. In fact, according to http://www.jersey.police.uk, “States of Jersey Police is a small but busy Force with around 240 Police officers. We serve 90,000 Islanders. The Force motto is ‘Making Jersey Safer.’ This is a commitment that States of Jersey Police take seriously. The people of Jersey expect our officers to prevent crime and disorder and bring offenders to justice. If the unexpected happens, they look to us to provide a swift and effective response at any time of day or night, 365 days a year”.
6. PJG concludes by telling us, “You appear to think HP are untrained, you are wrong, The SoJP and their legal advisers now train the HP”.
The operative word in that statement is “now”. This is just as well, because the Honorary Police, throughout the island, cannot be taken seriously.
——
PJG has taken great pains throughout this discussion to deny any direct connection with the Honorary Police. Somehow, this has the ring of St Peter thrice denying his connection with Christ.
I served with the Metropolitan Police for 30 years before retiring. Unlike PJG, I have had hands-on, day-to-day, experience of “the job”.
Unlike PJG, I know what I am talking about.
Report abuse
PC 49 (ret.)#28
1. in your opinion
2. Again in your opinion
3. Facts to back up this imaganitive scenario please
4. You fail to answer the question, “at what extra cost” for questionable improvement.
5. Again,You fail to answer the question, “at what extra cost” for questionable improvement.
You say “they look to us to provide a swift and effective response”
Am I to take your comments as an example of the views of a serving SoJP officer ?
6.Yes now ? your problem with that is ?
you conclude
“I served with the Metropolitan Police for 30 years before retiring. Unlike PJG, I have had hands-on, day-to-day, experience of “the job”.” (“retiring” does that mean you have made a mistake, god forbid, about the” we” bit in 5)
On the whole a fine upstanding police force.
But before asking for the disbandment of a police force that has been faithfully serving the people of Jersey for over 700 years. I think your righteous condemnation would be better aimed at following “facts” that happened during your watch ?
BENT COPPERS
The inside story of a secret unit that has worked under cover to expose corruption in the Metropolitan Police since the early 1990s.
Shocked by the extent of corruption within its ranks, Scotland Yard set up a new anti-corruption unit in the early 1990s. Its members had to operate in conditions of unprecedented secrecy and they became known as the ‘Ghost Squad’.
Bent Coppers really did believe they were untouchable: they stole cash and property, fitted-up innocent people and sold secret information to cripple court cases. Many of the bent coppers are now in jail or awaiting trial but the battle against corruption is not over.
In a landmark ruling in the law of libel, the Court of Appeal has unanimously ruled that journalist Graeme McLagan acted responsibly when he researched and wrote his book Bent Coppers: The inside story of Scotland Yard’s battle against police corruption.
HP are unpaid, need I say more ?
you say “Unlike PJG, I know what I am talking about”
hmm, do you ?
Report abuse
you say “Unlike PJG, I know what I am talking about”
hmm, do you ?
Yes.
Report abuse
Who is this annoying fusspot who hides behind the pseudonym of ‘PJG’?
He reminds me of an elderly Jack Russell terrier: always snapping around other people’s ankles.
Report abuse
PJG must be running out of steam.
He is really scraping the bottom of the barrel by attempting to divert attention from the Jersey Honorary Police to the peccadillos of a force far away.
We are not in London, we are not in the 1960s. We are in curruption-ridden Jersey in the 21st century.
Unlike PJG, we are not caught in a cosy timewarp. Unlike PJG, we have moved on.
Report abuse
PC 49 (ret.)
One expects acuracy not ego from a police officer, how about
IMO yes
Report abuse
I stick by my earlier response; nothing more, and nothing less.
Report abuse