Drive to end home abuse
Tuesday 24th November 2009, 3:00PM GMT.
The Bailiff talks to Mike Cutland and Lorna Kearney Picture: DAVID FERGUSON (00838777)
THE Bailiff last night called on every Islander to help protect women and children from the evil of domestic abuse.
Speaking at the launch at the Opera House of the Jersey Domestic Violence Forum’s 2009 Campaign Behind Closed Doors, Michael Birt said that people should encourage women victims of violence or abuse to come forward and speak to those who can help them.
If these vulnerable women did not seek help, he added, the abuse would continue. These women could not be adequately protected and the abuser would not be held to account if that abuse continued without being revealed, he said.
‘The effect on children of witnessing domestic violence is extremely damaging, but in reality no steps can be taken to help these children and address any problems which they may be facing if the existence of the violence has not been discovered,’ said Mr Birt.
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I’m wholely supportive of this campaign , but it’s suggestive that men aren’t / cannot be victims of domestic abuse…. should we not be more inclusive??
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The Bailiff is behind the times. The abuse most rarely reported nowadays is that of men by women.
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Perhaps Mr Birt should have a word with the police force first and ask that they start taking domestic abuse seriously!
I have personal experiences where a family member suffered physical abuse by their partner and the police force did nothing.
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Eh! But what if it is not in the public interest then surely there is no point in them coming forward!
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Why did the forum have to be conducted behind closed doors?
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There must be a conflict here. How on earth can he sit as a judge when he is patron of the forum and is making such extra-judicial public statements?
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well if you treat people like animals and force them to live in a two tier society, in cramped unqualified accommodation what do you expect duh!
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What about the known problem of abuse against males?
The slant of this presentation is laughably and unfortunately unsophisticated and sexist and rather detracts from what should be a mature and intelligent forum.
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Immigrant@7
Regardless of how poor the conditions are that some people live in, it is no excuse to beat the living daylights out of your wife/girlfriend/husband etc.
And if you believe that domestic violence only affects those in poor soccial living then you are very, very misinformed.
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Immigrant – we locals are so bored about immigrants moaning about accommodation – it is pretty expensive for locals as well.
Immigrants are not forced to come here – there are plenty of jobs in London and people can rent/buy whatever property they can afford.
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If you go to Australia and start moaning, you tend to get short shrift from the locals, rightly so.
Australia is big and well policed so far as immigration is concerned. Jersey is small and very poorly controlled. Furthermore, people who come here either want to change the place [like the colonialists tried to do in Africa and elsewhere] or think that the place owes them a living. Either way, there seems to be an awful lot of complaint from incomers who arrive here by choice.
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I am a newcomer to Jersey and have to say that I love it here.
And the thing that does my head in more than anything is people in general moaning about EVERYTHING. That includes newcomers and those born here.
When I moved over, my father in law told me a simple Jersey saying that sums this up:
“If you don’t like it, there’s a boat in the morning!”
Now, not saying we should not speak out when something is wrong, but people will find a way to complain about every single little thing – and I think that’s what put people off of Jersey the most.
Oh, and I have to admire the way that every post on this website somehow always turns into a go at Jersey Immigrant population.
Let’s get back to the issue at hand – DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.
It is wrong whether you are male or female, immigrant or local. The point thr Bailif made is a very good one – if you see someone is being abused, do not stand by and let it happen! The victim may not always have the strength or courage to come forward, so we must help to protect them, by speaking out. The abusers should know they cannot get away with it. And if you know someone in that situation, sometimes just lending an ear can help them get the courage to speak out for themselves.
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Jane # 3 In the 1990s the Police used to have a very robust Domestic Violence Policy and provided that there was sufficient evidence the police would always arrest and seek to prosecute the offender.
Is the information you have anecdotal, or do you have positive proof the cops did nothing? Often victims decline to support a prosecution and are reluctant to give a witness statement, which makes it difficult, though not always impossible to pursue a positive course of action.
If you are concerned, get in touch with the Detective Inspector in charge of the family Protection Team to find out the current policy. If you feel the police acted inapproapriately, complain to the Professional Standards Department.
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Anna G, you have managed to turn the matter on its head. well done.
This forum did not, as you say provide an example of something which,
“somehow always turns into a go at Jersey Immigrant population.”
Rather, the first stone was cast by an immigrant having a pop at the island. It is quite simple, don’t stay if it is so awful! If you are put off Jersey by the people of the island, why put up with it? Sounds like a whingeing pom to me.
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The matter of a judge being a member of a particular interest group and sitting on relevant cases brings to mind the case of Lord Hoffman [a member of amnesty international] sitting on the General Pinochet case. That case collapsed because of Hoffman’s undisclosed interest. Lord Hoffman should not have sat at all, whether his interest was disclosed or otherwise.
Even if there is no actual bias, there is an omnipresent risk of an appearance of the same and the concomitant prospect of a successful appeal in any given case.
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What a missed opportunity…he could have said.learning from the criticism of cover ups and secrecy at various childrens homes…we have learned the lesson that openness is the best way forward and now advocate the same principles in helping expose domestic violence.the people would have warmed to the honesty and humility…
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#11 Pommy: ‘Furthermore, people who come here either want to change the place [like the colonialists tried to do in Africa and elsewhere] or think that the place owes them a living.’
In fact, in my experience it is far more common for locals to feel that Jersey ‘owes them a living’. This is well known by employers, who are therefore more likely to employ someone from outside the island.
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Michael Neal, as you say, “in your experience”.
As for the locals, it is their island. Maybe they are entitled to expect something more than the clear discrimination which they routinely encounter in the workplace.
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# 15. Herr Bunker – the law lords may have been right re Hoffman, but that is not to say a judge should never be involved in an interest group or be a patron for a certain cause. Judges put their names to this sort of thing all the time – and so they should.
It does not place Birt in position of conflict or make him incapable of impartiality per se. The potential would only arise in a domestic abuse case, when presumably the DB could sit instead.
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Cool Vibe (no.14)
Well done, you have completely missed my point.
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Whatever at @19. Read the post to which you refer. It said ;
“Even if there is no actual bias, there is an omnipresent risk of an appearance of the same and the concomitant prospect of a successful appeal in any given case.”
The words “given case” amply indicated that what is meant is indeed relevant cases, not all cases as you seem to think. What you suggest [that a judge cannot sit on any case at all]would of course be quite unworkable!
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#18 Freddo
The fact that you talk about ‘clear discrimination’ against locals that they ‘routinely encounter’ suggests that I am far from the only one with this experience.
Perhaps the discrimination at least some locals encounter is actually a recognition that they are less likely to as motivated as their non-local counterparts? Stereotypes can have at least some basis in fact.
It is easier to believe that ‘they’ are out to get me than it is to acknowledge my own shortcomings and address them.
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I take it that Michael Neal would not wish to be considered for any position on an equality commission! With his views, it would seem that membership of an extreme right wing party might be more appropriate.
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Michael Neal at *22
Incidentally, my previous job in the UK brought me into regular contact with inner city drug users for more than three days. Please don’t assume that people who disagree with you live in an ‘insulated box’. You don’t have a monopoly on experience.
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#23 Nick
I suggested that the local population are more likely to hold a particular attitude to work than non-locals. I also acknowledged that this was based on nothing more than personal experience. While I agree that this view is essentially unprovable, it does not make it untrue.
Finally, I’m unsure how you have reached the conclusion that I am right wing and a supporter of inequality.
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#24 Smithy
Perhaps you’d like to use the actual quotation?
‘Incidentally, my previous job in the UK brought me into regular contact with inner city drug users for more than four years. Please don’t assume that people who disagree with you live in an ‘insulated box’. You don’t have a monopoly on experience.’
Perhaps you could expain why you amended my post? Perhaps you could also point out where I claim to have a monopoly on experience, particularly in light of my comments in #25, which was posted prior to your comment being moderated.
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Michael Neal #25
I am glad you qualify “was based on nothing more than personal experience”
In my job I am regularly employing people, and in MY experience you are 100% wrong. I want long term employees who appreciate a good job with a good caring employer. This I find more prevalent in a local labour market who have families and friends in the area (I do not just mean Jersey born) who are seeking employment.
You say
While I agree that this view is essentially unprovable, it does not make it untrue.
It also does not make it true and there for would be safer to be viewed with distrust.
You also say, but without the qualifying rider,
This is well known by employers
perhaps an IMO would be appropriate ?
Smithy# 24
Thank you I was going to say that, as I too think Michael Neal has a selective if not short memory.
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#27 PJG
Since I wasn’t comparing Jersey employees as a group with any other country’s employees, I don’t think you’ve understood my point.
Re ‘well known among employers’, IMO is not appropriate. I deal with many local businesses and at least a dozen of their senior managers have over the years said this.
The latest example was a senior manager at an multinational bank with a local branch, who said that his local employees arrived just before nine and left just after five while non-locals were willing to work longer hours. This is necessary to cover people who have left but not been replaced due to the current climate.
He said that when there were redundancies – and there would be – it would be the locals who would go first. He knew from past experience elsewhere that this would cause trouble because more locals would be made redundant than non-locals. However, he said this was based on work ethic. It’s just that more non-locals have a better work ethic than locals.
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Mr Neal at number 28:
That is pure fiction and betrays a total lack of understanding of racial awareness and how diversity works.
You have the right to believe whatever you want. We have the right to point out the factual errors you have made and that underpin your beliefs.
Incidentally, perhaps you’d like to share your evidence on your anecdotal hocus pocus with us? We all know someone whose monkey’s uncle’s brother’s sister’s cousin [twice removed] on the milkman’s side worked with a local who, horror of horrors, worked his contracted hours. It doesn’t mean it happened though.
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Micheal Neal:
“It’s just that more non-locals have a better work ethic than locals.”
And you wonder why some posting here think that you are right wing and a supporter of inequality.
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Mr Michael Neal. There can be no doubt that your expressed views are something which will be deeply offensive to very many decent, hardworking, jersey men and women.
It is obvious that your experience within the workplace has shaped what seems to be a somewhat jaundiced and bigoted standpoint.
Please have regard to the unsavoury tenor of what you put and perhaps think about keeping such opinions to yourself while you remain in the island.
We all know that j category licences are frequently abused and that a great many local applicants fail to secure posts, for no good reason, which are filled from outside the island. Please do not compound the aggravation felt by displaced locals by airing such singularly unpleasant views.
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#29 Har hoom?
‘That is pure fiction and betrays a total lack of understanding of racial awareness and how diversity works.’
Does it? Perhaps you could explain why.
‘You have the right to believe whatever you want.’
Phew! Thank goodness for that.
‘We have the right to point out the factual errors you have made and that underpin your beliefs.’
Perhaps you could provide a list of these factual errors?
‘Incidentally, perhaps you’d like to share your evidence on your anecdotal hocus pocus with us? We all know someone whose monkey’s uncle’s brother’s sister’s cousin [twice removed] on the milkman’s side worked with a local who, horror of horrors, worked his contracted hours. It doesn’t mean it happened though.’
Sincee you appear to be calling me a liar here, I will comment no further.
#30 Jonathan: ‘And you wonder why some posting here think that you are right wing and a supporter of inequality.’
I do. Perhaps you could explain why?
#31 Philp Pirrip
‘There can be no doubt that your expressed views are something which will be deeply offensive to very many decent, hardworking, jersey men and women.’
Not many decent, hardworking ones. Only those to whom it applies.
‘It is obvious that your experience within the workplace has shaped what seems to be a somewhat jaundiced and bigoted standpoint.’
Perhaps. Or maybe I am just describing what I see.
‘Please have regard to the unsavoury tenor of what you put and perhaps think about keeping such opinions to yourself while you remain in the island.’
From the comment ‘while you remain in the island’, I gather you might think I’m from elsewhere. If this is the case, I am local but I have spent many years living and working in the UK.
‘We all know that j category licences are frequently abused and that a great many local applicants fail to secure posts, for no good reason, which are filled from outside the island.’
Perhaps. But why are J cats abused in this way? There are big advantages to employing locals so why doesn’t it happen as often as it should? My belief is that it is partly due to the attitude of some locals already discussed.
‘Please do not compound the aggravation felt by displaced locals by airing such singularly unpleasant views.’
Re ‘displaced locals’, some will have been treated unfairly. However, please see #22 paragraph 3.
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#7 What a bizarre comment. There is an equal amount of abuse going on across all aspects of society. Thankfully we are not all daft enough to believe that everyone living in cramped accommodation does so because they are forced to. Some CHOOSE to.
And yes, I AM an immigrant and I AM unqualified… however, I have a good education behind me, a good job (I made sure I had it BEFORE I came here) and good accommodation! I’m getting sick fed up of all this poor immigrant talk, if I was local with only the skills to do a low-paid job then I would also be living in poor accommodation, as some locals I know are.
The problem here is largely how people are being raised. We need people to be raised KNOWing about these types of men and women. We need them to know that the first hit or the first serious verbal abuse is the point to walk.
And you may consider that you are walking and will have nothing, but it IS better than staying. You WON’T get anything if you stay, you won’t be able to build up a nest egg or anything like that, you will become so insecure and so dependent that you will just be stuck there.
The SOONER you get out the EASIER it is.
We need to be raising our kids with awareness of the issue and awareness that no-one is allowed to hit them or put them down and that they are worthy of better.
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So Michael Neal now says of local people that there are: “Not many decent, hardworking ones.”
Oh dear.
And he doesn’t know why he sounds like he might lean right of centre [to put it kindly]. Well, you can only explain to those who have the ability to understand.
It is indeed easier to believe that ‘they’ are out to get him than it is to acknowledge his own shortcomings and address them.
Incidentally, my previous job in the UK brought me into regular contact with employment discrimination for more than five years.
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I love the way Michael Neal keeps digging himself in deeper. I would quit while I am behind if I were you, Michael.
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Why does M Neal think that everyone who posts on this thread and other posts owes him an explanation? Guess what? They don’t.
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Mr Neal said in response to a post:
“‘Incidentally, perhaps you’d like to share your evidence on your anecdotal hocus pocus with us? We all know someone whose monkey’s uncle’s brother’s sister’s cousin [twice removed] on the milkman’s side worked with a local who, horror of horrors, worked his contracted hours. It doesn’t mean it happened though.’
Sincee (sic) you appear to be calling me a liar here, I will comment no further. ”
The reason why he comments no further is surely because he has no evidence. As I believe has been said elsewhere, anecdotal submissions carry little, if any, weight.
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M Neal said that “My belief is that it is partly due to the attitude of some locals already discussed.”
I have read all the posts with great interest and diligence. Nothing has been discussed regarding that point. All that appears in the foregoing is a narrow minded and repeated
slight on the jerseyman by Mr Neal.
A man in the pub told me that he had a friend of a friend whose sister knew someone with a cousin who told him that a man had told him that he read somewhere that some people arrive at work on time and leave on time. He can’t actually remember where this was or who the people involved were, sorry.
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#34 Chocoholic
‘So Michael Neal now says of local people that there are: “Not many decent, hardworking ones.”
Oh dear.’
You might like to re-read what I wrote.
#36 Lilly Savage
Why don’t they owe me an explanation? Just kidding…
#37 King’s Evidence
Please see post #28 paragraph 2.
The nature of evidence depends on what it is you are trying to establish. If I want to know how many ratepayers live in St Helier, there are records that show this. Evidence for other things such as peoples’ attitudes is necessarily more flimsy. However, I’ve already acknowledged this in #25: ‘While I agree that this view is essentially unprovable…’
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Any pandering to a racial stereotype is something which is likely to be offensive, particularly when it is directed against an indigenous populace. Only a person of unsophisticated and weak intellect would indulge in such a thing. I wonder where our friend above {and you know who you are!} would be if an armed conflict were to come about? Would he turn “fifth columnist”?
Incidentally, my previous job in Bethnal Green in England brought me into regular contact with diversity matters for more than four years.
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Chap at *39
‘While I agree that this view is essentially unprovable…’
Yes. And untenable too.
Incidentally, my previous job in the UK brought me into regular contact with an inner city statistics unit for more than three days.
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As you say, debate is healthy. Unfortunately, many posters (you know who you are!) post on this website without having the faintest idea what they’re talking about. Some of the comments above in relation to jersey employment show this, eg ‘the over use of sterotypes…can lead to inflamatory social disease’. Fortunately, 85 per cent of Jersey people are tolerant despite all the misinformation.
This is a public forum. Uncorrected ‘facts’ are read and repeated. Posters should remember this.
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The latest example was a senior manager at an multinational bank with a local branch, who said that his non-local employees arrived just after nine and left just before five while locals were willing to work longer hours. This is necessary to cover people who have left but not been replaced due to the current climate.
Don’t know if it is true but it might be. Difficult to say, really.
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Michael Neal fails to realise that he is trusting the word of an employer. An employer who may have had one bad experience (or a handful) and stereotype from that! Someone with an obvious bias will continue to see what they want to see and this is no doubt obvious to the employees in question who may (rightly) respond by doing less and less work! ONLY if this employer treats EVERYone absolutely the same will he be able to discover the error of his ways.
Anyway, is the issue not domestic abuse? Something that my Madeiran friends believe to be a bigger problem within their own culture than it is within Jersey as a whole. We’ve had staff who we know were working long hours JUST to avoid going home to their abusive partner… that might give some people cause for thought!
Of course, until the law is amended (for clear cut cases of domestic abuse) we still rely on the victim proceeding with charges… this is the real issue I believe. And frankly it is one that can only be solved by the next generation not getting into abusive relationships in the first place. Once in it can be unbelievably hard to get out.
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I’ve read all of the above post’s and can anyone tell me what they have to do with domestic violence?
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Mick *45, very well said. The forum became derailed by someone [no names because he seems to be compelled to compound initial offence by repeating it and let us hope that the unpleasant chapter is now closed] who decided for some reason to attack the local workforce.
Back to domesic abuse, yes, very good that the matter is being publicised. Of course, it should be added that it is something which cuts across both genders and all social strata.
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# 21. Simon. Perhaps I can make my post easier for you to understand. It should be pretty clear that I was agreeing with #15 and only commenting that despite the risk of apparent bias as identified by #15, the Bailiff should still be free to get invloved as a patron of this cause.
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Whatever at 47; please accept my apologies. I think I did misunderstand your post.
Best wishes.
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Instead of all your anti/pro jersey person twaddle why not donate the price of a round of drinks this xmas to the womans refuge and help them a little bit?
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Fantastic idea about donating the price of a round of drinks. Let us not forget the other charities while we are at it.
Incidentally, my previous job in the UK brought me into regular contact with a women’s refuge charity for more than four years.
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If it is correct as Michael has commented that “locals” have a poorer work ethic than “non-locals” I would suggest it is down to the employment and housing restrictions in place rather than any intrinsic difference between them. Many “locals” are only first or second generation in any event. If you grow up knowing you will have your quallies, that many posts are only open to people resident here for five years and that factoring in relocation costs and the good chance a “non-local” might not settle in Jersey and so it is cheaper to employ a “local” then it is probably human nature that many, but certainly not all, will feel they do not have to go the extra mile. By contrast if you have upped sticks to come to Jersey and hopefully make a better life for yourself and your family then holding on to your job and getting ahead will be for many (not all) a real priority.
None of that is racist given that “locals” are from a multitude of “races” and I cannot see that it is either right or left wing merely an observation, true or not, on perceived working attitudes in a small island .
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Al, don’t start all that pernicious nonsence again. This forum is about domestic abuse. Don’t cause trouble for the sake of it, please.
Making discriminatory remarks about any people must be wrong.
Let’s now support the worthy cause that is supposed to form the subject of this thread.
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Al, you could argue that racial stereotyps are based upon perceptions. There is also a right wing bias in those who seek to exploit those perceptions.
A funny little man in the last war who had a small black moustache exploited public perception and perception. Would you wish to see the results of that again?
I think not.
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AL * 51. Let’s stop this unwarranted attack on the local workforce as Mick above suggests. Think of the good that all that negative energy could do for charity.
Are you going to donate?
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Commentator at number 51, can we end this bigotry please and get back to the real issue, that of domestic abuse.
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52 / 53 / 54 / 55 If you re-read my post I wasn’t offering a view on whether or not Michael was correct in his assertion just how even if he is correct it is possibly a by-product of the rules in place in Jersey and not because “locals” whoever they may be are inherently somehow worse than “non-locals”.
As I said this has nothing to do with race as those who would be classed as “locals” come from a whole panoply of races (French, Jersey, Irish, English, Scottish, Portuguese etc etc etc) just the same as the “non-locals” do.
But agreed this is all completely off-point to the story which relates obviously to a very worthy cause. No one should be subjected to violence. Unfortunately judging from the scenes in St. Helier every weekend violence seems far too prevalent. I can’t help thinking that is because four out of five times when an offender is actually taken to court for a grave and criminal assault in Jersey they get a slap on the wrist (i.e. community service) rather than a few months in prison.
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Al, either way, your comments [misinformed as they may be] are not relevant to this thread
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Al:
If you admit that your post is off point, then why post it!!?
It is inflammatory to attempt to deny that Jersey people exist. I think you must know that. If you don’t, you do now! I would like to see what would happen if you tried to spout that kind of nonsence in Scotland!
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