How to entice the tourists?
Saturday 28th November 2009, 3:00PM GMT.
Jersey's heritage is just one of the many aspects of the Island that could be marketed. Mont Orgueil is pictured bathed in winter sunshine late in the day. Picture by Matthew Hotton (00830070)
FRESH ideas to entice holidaymakers to Jersey are being sought from Islanders who work in the tourism industry.
The politician in charge of tourism, Economic Development Minister Alan Maclean, is to set up a panel of volunteers to advise Jersey Tourism on future marketing campaigns.
Senator Maclean is looking for six marketing experts from a wide range of the Island’s tourism spectrum, from hotelier to tour operator, to make up the panel.
‘It will be an advisory group which we hope will come up with ways in which the Island should be more effectively marketed,’ said Senator Maclean. ‘It will be an invaluable group in terms of devising marketing campaigns that are going to maintain our share of the tourism market and, we hope, increase it.’
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Here we go again – too little too late !!!
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No let me think. Two weeks in Spain or 4 days in Jersey? A bit of a no brainer really…
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It’s all about the weather…. I went to the zoo in the summer and gave up after 15 minutes of torrential rain. How about building a huge glass dome over the island and marketing it as centerparcs jersey. Or do a buy one get one free promotion on shoes or something like that…
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@ Mogit #1
“…too little too late !!!…”
I agree what is proposed is/will be too little; but I don’t think it’s too late for the tourist industry, it just needs more than thinking up a better campaign slogan.
@ simon says #3
The dome doesn’t need to be huge, just in the right place, and covering the right facilities, but I *do* think the idea of a ‘weather proof’ draw to the island could ‘save’ tourism as an industry and be hugely beneficial to the island as a whole. I know the location, but the States do not have the vision/balls to build it.
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There are many people keen on digital photography and Jersey is the ideal location for photographic shoots. How about photography weeks, coastal, flora and fauna etc. We have many expert photographers in the Island who may be willing to take courses or perhaps we could encourage a well known photographer to come over
to the Island. Perhaps the Jersey Photographic Club could also be involved.
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As a regular visitor to your Island over the past 15 years, it is not hard to see why there has been a severe decline in your tourism, due to:-
1) the number of Hotels which have been closed and only replaced by Hotels charging exhorbitant rates.
2) A decline in visitor attractions, especially when I see that there are plans to build on the site of Living Legend!
3) The high cost of getting to the Island in the First place!!
My perception is that the Island has/is chasing the Financial Industry Business to the detriment of the Tourist Trade, which in today’s climate is a very risky and ill conceived strategy!!! To place ‘your eggs into one basket’ never works!
In recent years Jersey Tourism has survived mainly on the back of the Bergerac TV Series, but this is now declining as the program recedes into memories and Tourism needs a massive boost by some similar program or project.
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I believe Jersey Tourism has always liased with hoteliers and tour operators about marketing and tourism in general.
So, what is new here?
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am looking to travel to Jersey in Jan, so far 2 nights in a hotel plus flight is £350.00
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The establishment really don’t give a monkies. In the 25 plus years I’ve been resident, Tourism has died. Its too late to wake up and smell the coffee. It is deceased its an ex-industry, gone to meet its maker, pushing up the daisies. This place is no longer a viable holiday destination. What do people want on their hols? That is the question Tourism should be asking, in fact where and why do the Tourism people go? That may give an insight to what is lacking here.
It boils down to value for money. £350 for 2 nights is not value for money. Its too expensive to get here, so much for ‘budget’ airlines! Eating and drinking is now more expensive than central London, I was in the capital not so long ago, 3 bottles of beers cost £6 ish, same round here nearly 9 earth pounds. Says it all really.
People are voting with their feet and going to better locations. Jersey is a wonderful place, it does have much to offer, but the industry needs to bring the place up to date, diversify, and most importantly come up with an identity to market and target.
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@ Sarah #8
“…am looking to travel to Jersey in Jan, so far 2 nights in a hotel plus flight is £350.00…”
First site I tried via Google got me flights from the UK and a hotel for 2nights for £154; that’s without any shopping around.
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We used to do a fair bit of living history work with costumed interpretation of some of the fortifications of the island. Until we got told to stop. Sad as the tourists loved it.
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Over the past twelve years I visited Jers at least once a year for holidays, normally 1-2 weeks duration. Due to the following reasons my visits have been drastically reduced to 1-2 days at a time.
1. High costs of getting to the island especially sea crossings with car.
2. Many hotels due not seem to value the holiday guests and devote their attention to corporate guests.
3. Generally the impression giving to us of late is that we are not so welcome.
4.Yob culture is very noticeable and offputting.(we would normally visit Jers to escape this)
5.My car damaged by local drunken yobs during my last visit.
6.Jersey prices are very expensive for most products, even prior to introduction of GST.
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Quite agree with 12 – St Helier is now quite unpleasant in the evening – due to ‘yobs’. Bearing in mind most of our visitors are of the older generation (those with the paid for houses, pensions and no borrowing, so they can afford holidays) they are likely to be put off walking around what used to be a nice built up area.
Many locals rarely go out in town for this reason prefering locations such as St Brelade and St Aubin
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We live in a different world now. Personally, I think tourism in Jersey will never recover. For starters, the internet has created a mentality of the world being a smaller place, people want to travel to more exotic or exciting destinations. However, the major problem with Jersey is the cost. Flights and hotels are just far too expensive. Families will never come here again, it’s a destination for retired folk, or couples wanting a dirty weekend. Also, there’s too many people living here now, when you go on holiday, you want to escape to somewhere relaxing, something Jersey is not anymore. It goes without saying I blame the States. If we want to go down the route as advertising ourselves as ‘reassuringly expensive’ (just like Stella Artois does), we should have made the Waterfront development the envy of Europe, including a much maligned Casino. Jersey could have become something akin to Monte Carlo. Instead we have a Waterfront which is a disgrace and an embarrassment, it’s far more scenic standing in Hastings or Bognor Regis
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We have fantastic island and a range of accommodation from campsites and b & b’s to luxury 4 and 5 star hotels. A massive investment has taken place over the last few years from the hoteliers at the higher end of the market to both improve leisure and corporate facilities.
Corporate facilities not only service the on island companies but also bring delegates from every corner of the planet and although some hotels are more purposeful for this market, the ones that are more focused on leisure guests are kept ticking over by weekday conferences or business visitors coming over to meet with their Jersey counterparts.
It is never too late and investment and marketing is going on all the time by tourism and the individual hoteliers.
Rather than write off something that you know little or nothing about, show a little support instead of blasting Senator Maclean for trying to build the industry up.
As an island and holiday destination we have much to offer and every island resident should be proud to shout it from the rooftops rather than take every opportunity to moan about the beautiful location they choose to live in.
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I think we need to realise Jersey is way behind in the adult entertainment area.
No casino, no gentleman’s clubs, no all night clubbing.
Even people of 60 now have the sex pistols as a fond memory, come on get up to date.
Sailing, climbing, surfing, language schools, sea food, walking, diving schools, sky diving, learning to fly, and even sunbathing in-between.
Activity based holidays in other languages than English and conferences with adult entertainment at a good price.
Jersey is an exotic destination to those outside of Europe.
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An artificial reef to produce better quality and more consistent waves will be a winner, with tourists and locals alike
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Legalise drugs.
Build artificial reef off St Ouen’s bay for guaranteed surf all year round.
Ban fishing with nets or long lines in Jersey water to attract leisure fisherman.
Make Jersey an organic Island.
Use green taxes to encourage electric and LPG cars: make Jersey the cleanest Island in Europe.
Ban any new building outside of St Helier.
Casino.
Lap dancing club.
Proper support for Jersey Live (e.g. camping facilities).
None of it costs much – it just needs imagination and an end to the Methodist dictatorship.
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Darren makes some very good points. Jersey does not feel as relaxing as it did even just 18 months ago. He also hits on the building site issue, nowhere appeals to people when it is a building site, it doesn’t matter what else the place has going for it!
As someone else pointed out bits of Jersey are really beautiful, and there are young and old people alike who simply like to go somewhere that looks good. Some people also like the feel of being on an island, the somewhat fake feeling of being remote can make for a far more relaxing holiday, and some islands abroad are too big to give that feeling. Of course the States insist on trying to ruin the look and feel as much as possible.
As for travelling from the UK, the cheapest I have ever managed to get from one major city in Britain is £177 return, that is enough to put off family coming for long weekends. You need to be going for a week to make £177 seem like good value and obviously a week off work is less easy to come by than a long weekend.
While cost is probably one of the main factors it’s worth remembering that other things can put people off making a return visit. One experience of unpleasantness can really ruin a place. While I don’t believe shops and restaurants can bring people to the island, they certainly have the ability to put people off coming back. Many Jersey shops and restaurants need to get through to their staff about friendliness and smiling. They don’t cost anything and they can make a big difference.
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The £177 was just the flight prices, no accommodation!
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Create a motor race or yacht race of international reputation. Perhaps the redbull air race. Maybe the finance sector would like to sponsor?
Create a new indoor visitor attraction like Cornwall’s Eden projet or an Aquarium or Ski slope & Ice rink?
Casino?
artificial reef for surfing?
Turn St Aubins bay into water sports marina?
Bridge from France (no more relying on the money grabbing airlines)?
Definately PROTECT our coast, it is the only thing left that makes tourists visit!
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The powers that be put all our eggs in the finance basket,and are now backpaddling..it will never again be like it was,however if filming is encouraged here,a new series,coupled with event and sport led tourism..it is still a wonderful location,but won’t if we build stupidly all over and destroy what is natural and quaint…a la Cohen style, if that speight of concrete obscenities stops then maybe just maybe we could expand this buisness again, for nature style and quality never go out of fashion and are always desirable…are you listening Freddie…?
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Darren 14.
RE: Jersey could have become something akin to Monte Carlo.
You’ve obviously never been to Monte Carlo!
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23, yup. Known as “a sunny place for shady people”. Somwhere so avaricious it makes Jersey look like a VSO recruiting centre.
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I suspect that the recent announcement of gambling review and new controls could be the precursor to the introduction of a casino.
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Claire Stephens 24.
Jersey is known as the “SHADY place for shady people”…and people (shady and sunny) follow the sun…and it’s just a breath away from St Tropez, Cannes and Nice…aaahhh!
Not that I’ve anything against Guernsey and Sark but….
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J Lamborrari @ 4
I fear that your comment highlights both the superficial and underlying problem with Jersey Tourism and their ‘tourist’ strategy.
1. The main stream bucket, spade and sun holiday maker has departed for good. Elsewhere the sun is both cheaper and better . A CenterParc is great fun, but can be built cheaper on an industrial wasteland and the people will still come.
2. The tourist industry is dead as a the Monty Python parrot. Look at Jersey Airport arrivals; you are as likely to see a business person and their laptop, as a tourist with a family.
Sue Baudains @ 5
Totally agree, but we cannot build a whole tourist industry on culure. A sad truth.
Mad foetus @18
Your ideas read like a manifesto for the Raving Loony Party.
Maybe not such a bad thing, it was the Raving Loony Party who first proposed dog passports.
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Leah I regularly get return flights to London for £100 or less. You can get a return flight to Liverpool for £36 if you book ahead. Seems like you have been getting ripped off for years!
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I visit Jersey once every three or four weeks for a long weekend, and occasionally for a full week.
At first, I would stay in an hotel, but since making friends in Jersey, I am invited to stay with them.
There is absolutely no pleasure in going out at night in St Helier. Your main town is infested (yes, infested) with teenyboppers with nowhere to go, so they congregate near the bus station, or in Liberty Square.
Crime against the person if rife in St Helier, judging by reports in this newspaper. No one – least of all a visitor to Jersey – wishes to expose him/herself to physical danger.
What is left of your tourism and hospitality industry seems hell-bent on squeezing every last penny piece from visitors’ pockets. Prices in your restaurants are much higher than comparable establishments in the U.K. In fact, the very name of the “Tennerfest” has now become palpably fraudulent; this autumn it was difficult to find a restaurant that actually served a meal for £10. That is pure, unmitigated, deceit.
What Jersey does still have is the physical beauty of its natural features. However, as an island population, you seem set on destroying your lovely scenery and covering it over with as much concrete, brick and tile as possible.
The politics of a holiday destination are not usually of concern to a visitor. However, the alleged breaches of human rights law and the child abuse scandal have done much to deter simple, but honest and upstanding, folk from going to Jersey. They equate what they read in the UK press and see on television with apartheid in South Africa, or worse.
Come on Jersey! Buck up your ideas, clean up your collective act. Spend tourist advertising money wisely: I can say, with my hand on my heart, that I have not seen a single television spot advertising Jersey tourism in three years.
There is always plenty of “black” news, though, and this put people off visiting. On the other hand, perhaps you really do not want visitors at all.
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#28 I live further north than that! None of the ‘cheap’ airlines cover Glasgow anymore, and the direct flights have been withdrawn so its a stopover at Gate 55 now. Flybe do flights via London but once you add up the costs BA are always cheaper!
And last time I checked Glasgow was considered a major city in the UK. It even won a poll putting it second only to London for shopping and sightseeing in the UK. It SHOULD be (relatively) cheaper than going to Liverpool, allowing an adjustment for extra fuel.
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#18 It’s not JUST to be a place for tourists you know, some of us have to live here too!
Making it good for tourists is not to be at the expense of the quality of life of those that live here.
I still believe that cost is the biggest factor. I had family visit recently and they loved the place, however they were able to get free accommodation! And they were people in their 20s, not pensioners. While there may not be many big tourist attractions, Jersey actually has a lot of unusual things going on. There are all sorts of things on pavements, carved into walls etc that give you an idea of the history of the island. These are things that you simply don’t get elsewhere and that can intrigue people to find out more.
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Price unfortunately has all but killed tourism. The states haven’t realised this basic economic fact yet from what I can see, even though they have been told about it enough times.
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Tourist want value for money.Period. They will put up with bad weather and not-so-great places if its good value.Weston Super Mare is a run down resort yet 30,000 people (MCN Oct 09) visit every October for a weekend of usually heavy rain to watch motorcycle beach racing . 100,000+ people visit a farm in Pilton, A.K.A. Glastonbury, again usually in the rain.These events bring millions of pounds to the local economy. Think outside the box and get an event people follow fanatically and let the organisers have the help they need. Combine that in a package with cheap accommodation and travel here. The money would be recouped in the tourist pounds and Jersey may be seen the world over if the event is good enough for TV coverage.Jersey has better weather than the UK and can be a great place to visit.What Jersey needs is a Premier Lodge or Holiday Inn Express type of accommodation, £50 a night or less, sleeps four and is well equiped.Team that with a CHEAP way of getting here and something to do when here ! Jersey has plenty to offer but also needs to big up its natural attractions.(21 Shush, you should be head of tourism ) As for Jersey Live it should relocate to St Ouen`s.(a)there is camping sites there already and space to allow temporary camping (b) easily made into a one way system (c) would make a great backdrop to a televised event especially with the beaches,surfing and sunsets (d)plenty of space (f) close to the airport. Think outside the box, just because its been held in Trinity doesn`t mean it has to be.
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Visited your very beautiful island last summer. I was dissapointed over the very expensive hotels as well as restaurants and shopping.Airfare too high!
In Sweden we think this island is good for cyceling but I found it dangerous.
You should promote the very nice beaches more and windsurfing. So many people around EU don’t even know where Jersey is.
But I love the island and and all the flowers.
Good luck!
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#34 It’s only really dangerous for rather invisible cyclists. Jersey should go down the line of making it mandatoty for cyclists to wear helmets, have lights on the back and front of their bike and to wear reflective clothing. France has brought in the reflective clothing law and it’s clear just how much more visible cyclists are when wearing suitable clothing. These ideas are easy, cheap and are bound to make cyclists more visible.
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Why stop at a lap dancing club M.F.?
We should set up a world leading, legalised, adult leisure industry to rival Amsterdam and Bangkok.
It’s a time honoured way of providing wallet relief – just about the only one not already boasted about by Jersey entrepreneurs.
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The problems are staring everyone, including Senator McLean, in the face.
1. Rediculous cost to get here
2. Rediculous cost when you are here
3. Lack of attractions to compete with other destinations.
Deal with it Senator. Less talk – more direct action to address those three.
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Wurzel (33) Using St Ouens Beach as a backdrop to Jersey Live is an excelent idea something I know has been successfully tried and tested at pentire beach in Newquay, Cornwall for many years.
Aha, There are a number of very talented people I would reccommend for head of tourism,
but first I would suggest it is privatized. Eveyone else in tourism is running a business, trying to make money, something that Jersey Tourism should be more aware of.
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Leah,
Fly to Liverpool (£32 return) then get train (£30 return train) to Glasgow. Total: £62. Simples
p.s. I thought you lived in Jersey, after all you talk like one?
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Leah Holms
You may want to try this site when booking flights.skyscanner.net
Indirect return flights to Glasgow £86.
Deo 5th Jan ret 11 jan 2010.
Probably a bit more with baggage and credit card charges, but a lot less than your £180.
http://www.skyscanner.net/flights/jer/glas/january-2010/january-2010/cheapest-flights-per-month-to-glasgow-from-jersey-in-january-2010.html
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As a former resident of the Island and now an annual visitor, I believe Jersey has priced themselves out of the market as far as family holidays are concerned. My family,( 2 adults, 2 children) flying from Scotland, priced a week in Jersey ( Flight and B&B) only to find it was cheaper to fly to Turkey all inclusive for 2 weeks
Guess where we went…
The reason I am an annual visitor is that I have family on the Island and the only cost to us is our flights… BA all the way!!!
To socialise in Jersey is so much more expensive than in Glasgow, where variety and competition aid to to keep the prices down.
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I hope ANYONE at Tourism has had the time to read these statements. Sadly as is common, ‘the Jersey way’ no-one will. They should take heed at the comments and suggestions. Bucket and spade in out the window, Tourists demand a much more sophisticated holiday experience now.
At the moment Jersey cannot supply the market requirements.
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stop flybe charging so much for flights here!
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Would Mr Alan Wicker-Basket (#42) be so kind as to clarify his statement “Bucket and spade in out the window”?
Does Mr W-B prefer his bucket and spade in (or out) of the window? This is an important point for Jersey Tourism to ponder over during the long, dark, evenings.
Or has Jersey Tourism thrown its toys out of the pram?
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I think he is trying to say tourism are up a creek without a paddle.
Flying bananas might look nice but they aren’t good sellers for holidays. Neither are kitch phrases like Life Enriching.
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Certainly sir, I was trying to typo the ‘Bucket and spade’ holiday is certainly out of the window, and most likely down the swanny. Sitting on the fence with both ears to the ground and not beating about the bush I feel tourism should ponder on why they are shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
Probably. I hope that clarifies the situation as I see it.
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Easy?..shop elsewhere! hot sunny destinations at a fraction of the cost. Jersey is dead in all aspects. …At it,s own greed
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Jersey has all sorts of festivals celebrating our diversified cultures, beer festivals, food festivals etc but i cannot think of a purely “Jersey” festival (certainly not one of any interest at least)
How about a week long “Jersey” festival akin to Oktoberfest? It could include selling purely local produce, local food/cuisine, local beer, local music, local entertainment, etc etc
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“How about a week long “Jersey” festival akin to Oktoberfest? It could include selling purely local produce, local food/cuisine, local beer, local music, local entertainment, etc etc ”
Now, that is an excellent idea!
Let’s call it the “Tennerfest”. We can then squeeze the very last farthing from the grockles’ pockets.
We can pretend that “a good, two-course, meal for £10″ really means “a poor to mediocre, two-course meal for £17.50 plus 15% service charge and GST on top of that”.
After all, they’re only visitors: they are rich and can afford to be ripped off.
After all, they will never come back again.
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Magnolia Man thanks Mr Alan Ticker-Tasket for his prompt, courteous and greatly enlightening response to his earlier query.
One may but hope that our elected “leaders” in the House of Fun in the Royal Square will be blessed with comprehension and wisdom in their deliberations and searches for at least ONE single tourist to visit our shores in 2010.
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Albert
I’d hardly call the tennerfest a festival!
Besides, it would be for locals too not just tourists…..don’t forget we live here and want to be entertained as well.
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Well said, Albert Salmon.
I always have a good laugh when the the Tennerfest ads come out. What amazes me is how many start getting excited as the time for it comes around. Life in Jersey must be dull.
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It’s usually the woman who chooses the holiday destination, so it’s the ladies Jersey has to attract.
A light drama series (shot mainly on location) which portrays the destinies of 3 or 4 women with luxury lifestyles and the people they meet daily (characters people can identify with) would stimulate curiosity and interest in the island (Bergerac did). And if cleverly organized, could be used as a showcase for Jersey’s hotels, shops, golf clubs, health spas, etc.
Women are always interested in the lives, clothes and hairstyles of their heroines and share in their moral and emotional dramas (cheating spouses, divorce, raising children, medical issues, etc.). So a Sex and the City style plot (but without the sex bit…because after all “This is Jersey”) just might put Jersey back on the ‘Holiday map’…I said “just might!”
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53 Born Warrior suggested a female-oriented, Jersey-based soap opera to attract tourists to the Island.
Would this be along the lines of the female-oriented, Spain-based soap opera designed to attract tourists to that country?
What was its name now? Oh yes, ‘Eldorado’.
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“Life in Jersey must be dull”.
It is.
Mind-numbingly, soul-crushingly dull. Its utter provinciality is what makes flyBE’s business here profitable: people need to get away to retain their sanity. It’s either that, or the need to resort to alcohol abuse to make life bearable.
Jersey’s intrinsic dullness is a major reason for the absence of tourists evere returning to the Island.
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Hundreds of children are due to take part in a candlelight procession through St Helier later as part of the annual Fete de Noue celebrations.
The aim of the festive event, which runs through to 20 December, is to encourage tourists from overseas.
Craft markets, late night shopping, guided walks and classic films are among a number of events being staged to attract visitors.
Youngsters are set to parade from All Saints Church to St James at 1800 GMT.
I recently acquired a “Whats On” book from a local hotel just to see what would be on if I was on holiday here right now. The schedule consists mainly of walks, ghost walks etc but over all pretty naff.
I don’t know what is happening in say St Malo at the moment, but I bet there is more to do in the month of December than here.
Tourism is dead here and the Hotel I acquired this information from was reasonably empty
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Chancre 54
I don’t know if Spain has a soap or even if it needs one, but St Tropez does and so does Capri, two of my favourite haunts. The story lines are of little consequence, but they’ve both brought in boat loads of tourists…because women like soaps.
The Jersey one could have stunning women, cheating spouses (mmmm…maybe that’s just that bit too real), good looking youths (to attract the teenagers) and, especially for the kiddies, a really intelligent dog…and Jersey could call it “REX and the City!”…original eh!
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I’ve very often been visiting your island as a “round the corner” North Breton , I really admired your way of living which I considered being rather “cool” though hardworking, your ( seemingly) sense of solidarity , your will to succeed ,your overall optimism and confidence , but last time I nearly felt “lost”, watching people hurrying apparently faster than parisians (oct.2005), now I wonder how it will be next time (I now live in Arras in Pas de Calais) but I’m sure loads of French people would be highly pleased to discover such a “different” island so close to them.
besides if you could add a “hit attraction” it would be a big plus…
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some years ago an ad agency put on parisian metro walls a photograph showing this small breton house pressed between 2 big pink granite blocks (Plougrescant on the North Coast of Cote d’Armor department).Thereafter began a rush of parisians towards Brittany which hasn’t faded yet.
Just try doing likewise with Jersey sceneries !
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I know one person in Tourism who was so fed up with the St Aubin’s fete, which was hugely successful because thousands of locals attended. That, coupled with the attendant inadequate lavatory, eating and drinking facilities, was the reason (or so he said) that Jersey Tourism was not going to put money into it again!
Jersey Tourism does nothing for the benefit of locals – that would be the job of Jersey Heritage (of doubtful reputation) or of our local culture groups.
Tourism exists purely to identify new markets and attract more visitors to Jersey. This is pretty much what is says on the tin, so let’s not spin off into benefits for locals; any such benefits are incidental to the task (as they should be).
Jersey Tourism should concentrate instead on why we bother having a tourism department at all since it is plain enough that tourism to this island is dead, gone , defunct, shuffled from this area, no longer with us.
Take the Tourism budget, divide it between four airlines, and instruct them to deliver “free” flights or £1 flights to Jersey. That, I am afraid, is the only option available, other than standing around Gatwick giving away free tickets.
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We visited Jersey a number of times, which we thoroughly enjoyed, until we began to realise that you don’t like, want or welcome tourists to your safe little bolt hole. We won’t trouble you again, we’ll stick to Cornwall, where we are welcomed year after year. Good luck
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61. roy morris.
sorry to here you had a bad time in jersey.
i wish you would say more of what you found wrong, then we could try to make mends.
a while ago, we had a article on a couple of chaps who wanted to bring the redbull race here, and the public made a host suggestions .
i did post on here , that maybe we should get someone up to jersey airport , and the boats , to get some information from our departing tourists , as to how their stay was.
untill we do something like this we may as well stab a broom into the office ceiling looking for the answer.
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