A blatant attempt to censor debate?
Wednesday 2nd December 2009, 3:00PM GMT.
From Deputy Geoff Southern.
I AM writing about the latest moves to make the States more ‘efficient’. At first glance this seems a reasonable measure, but closer examination reveals a blatant attempt by some ministers, and others (Senators Ozouf, Perchard and Shenton), who might be expected to know better, to stifle the healthy democratic increase in activity on the part of elected progressive politicians in the States.
No doubt they would refer to these progressive members, new and old, as ‘the opposition’ to the conservative establishment view. By picking on the length and content of speeches, as a populist starting point, these members, now backed by Privileges and Procedures, have established a bridgehead behind which other more noxious limits to backbenchers’ rights are proposed.
There is no doubt that backbenchers have become more active over recent years. The number of propositions lodged by backbenchers has risen to 51 in 2008 from 29 in 2006. The quality and quantity of questions, the basic means of holding ministers to account, continues to rise.
This is a healthy position. We are seeing the development of an effective and organised political dynamic in the assembly.
Equally, there is no doubt that life for ministers is becoming more difficult. Ministers’ propositions have been heavily amended or on occasion defeated. Misleading ministerial statements are challenged. Shoddy and partial reports are given short shrift by members and referred back.
Increasingly high quality, well researched work is brought to the States from the backbenches. Question time has become a real challenge. Again, this is a healthy position.
Some ministers, and one in particular, object to this. They would like to see a return to the old days when a minister just had to turn up on the day to get a proposition through. Intense lobbying behind closed doors had been done to ensure the right result.
The constables could be relied on to vote the ‘right’ way. The ministers’ request to ‘trust me, I have the Island’s best interests at heart’ went unchallenged. It was business as usual.
I use the word ‘business’ deliberately, because this is the business model of politics. It is Jersey plc.
The boss says: ‘I have decided, now go and do it’. The boss will not tolerate any argument, nor it seems do some ministers. The problem is that business is not democratic, whereas government is.
Some ministers do not wish to hear the contrary arguments, no matter how well put, and certainly not at length. Like children, they clap their hands to their ears and stamp their feet in the hope that the argument will go away.
Let’s talk turkey here and name names. This fuss has been brought to a head by the arrival of the new Deputy of St Mary, Daniel Wimberley, an elected member who has a comprehensive knowledge of green issues. He is an undoubted asset to the Chamber.
In the perhaps naive view, shared by many, that decisions should be based on research, fact and evidence, he has attempted to condense his lifelong studies into two speeches on the incinerator and on population.
That he failed to do this in under ten minutes (say) or whatever limits are proposed, should not start us on a set of radical changes.
He will learn, as many members have, that it is largely unproductive to speak for more than 20 minutes. Such skills must be learned; they cannot be imposed.
If we are naming names, then can anyone tell me the relevance of any of the contributions of Senator Terry (the good people of Jersey) Le Main to further the debate or, for that matter, what added value Deputy Ben (in a previous life) Fox contributes. At least his speeches are mercifully short.
Beware, members, if we start censoring the content of speeches, who knows what will be banned. Any attempt to censor will be to the detriment of our democracy.
As to increasing lodging periods for backbenchers’ propositions from the current two weeks, if the minister with his dozens of managers of this and directors of that cannot respond within two weeks, they are not worth their titles. What happened to their efficiency?
This proposal makes rapid response to urgent issues (Woolworths workers, etc) impossible and the backbenchers’ task of representing constituents more difficult. Will it be one rule for us and another for them?
Only last week the Chief Minister, no less, amended his own amendment ‘on the hoof’ in the Chamber. Would that have been allowed for a backbencher? Almost certainly not. Proposals to vet propositions – how, and by whom, one has to ask – are obvious forms of control and censorship.
Further proposals to limit the number of amendments and propositions that a private member can bring are a fundamental attack on members’ ability to represent their constituents.
They will be fiercely opposed by all democratically aware members of the States and many of the voting public.
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When is he going to turn the record over?
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I should like to caution Deputy Southern against his bullying ways. Surely comments about those Ministers mentioned can cause stress, sickness and depression. I know that Senator Perchard would never stoop to… Oh… Hang on.. (and I wait for that comment to be censored…)
As it is, the concern raised here by Deputy Southern is a very important one. What we see from the proposals of ‘The In Crowd’ is a curtailment of democracy. I’m not going to copy/paste his letter – just go and read again – properly, this time, Matt! What we see here is an establishment slowley stiffling dissent… And as for the amendment to the data protection law….
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I am surprised that Senator Shenton is supportive of restricting the rights of members to speak. This is so anti-democratic.
I am not a JDA voter but I agree with Deputy Southern on this.
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Deputy Southern is an absolute windbag as are half the other States members. If they spent less time gassing and more time getting on with the job in hand maybe more people would be interested in politics.
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Perhaps if Deputy Southern were not a failed Senator, who immediately ran back to bedsit land when his bid to get an island mandate failed I would not think this blatant attempt to sully Senators was only sour grapes.
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I am in absolute agreement with Deputy Southern on this one and I too am surprised to learn that Senator Shenton is in agreement with this blatant attempt to oppress those who appear to hold differing views to the Establishment,this would be totally undemocratic.
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Democracy what’s that?
It is good to see the right wing mentality sticking the boot in yet again on a left of centre states member.
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Well said Geoff.
#4 – The States needs more people with integrity who are strong enough to hold their values in the face of opposition and challenge the establishment time and time again – I recognise a man who is well informed, well researched and has integrity – I’m glad he’s there, check his voting record here: (http://www.thisisjersey.com/election/senators/st-helier/)
#5 – I assume you mean St. Helier when you say bedsit land, well lucky for those people who can afford to live anywhere else in Jersey these days, most can’t, what an elitist comment – we here in bedsit land know where out political ideology lies, that’s why Geoff Southern came in 3rd in the 2008 Senatorial election results in St. Helier. (http://www.thisisjersey.com/election/senators/st-helier/)
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Mungo’s Revenge #8
My thanks for pointing out so accurately Geoff’s failure to get an all island mandate as a Senator, because failure it was.
Elitist, not me, I live in St Helier #2 and can talk from the experience of having this opinionated left wing loser represent me.
He ran back to bedsitland because he knows there is a larger congregation of those that receive from the state rather than those that give in the area and Geoff’s politics is all about giving away and nothing about generating wealth for Island.
When he realises we must accumulate wealth before we can increase benefits I will vote for him, but I don’t think that will ever happen.
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Adrian says “It is good to see the right wing mentality sticking the boot in yet again on a left of centre states member. ”
Am I the only one offended by his implication that left of centre people are unable to make a point clearly and succinctly? Surely just because you are a lefty doesn’t mean you are windbag who is obessed with the sound of their on voice?
And as to limiting the number of amendments a person makes, why not do it this way. Let the person propose as many amendments as they want, on the basis that each one is taken in the order they choose and once one is rejected, all the rest are rejected. That stops people talking at length about proposals that have no chance of being adopted.
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“Perhaps if Deputy Southern were not a failed Senator, who immediately ran back to bedsit land when his bid to get an island mandate failed I would not think this blatant attempt to sully Senators was only sour grapes. ”
It matters not whether Southern is exhibiting sour grapes.
The points he raises are completely valid and point to troublesome times for democracy on this island, which clearly you failed to notice in your eagerness to drag the debate down to being one of mere personality issues.
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Silvia – I think the point being made was that although there be some grounds to support Southern’s assertions, you ought to take what he says with a pinch of salt due to his sour grapes.
Restricting the time of speeches and the number of amendments that a member can make to a proposition seems to be a sensible way to ensure that members try to get it right the first time.
These limits are used by many democratic governments (see Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc).
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silvia #11
Perhaps you missed these bits “blatant attempt by some ministers, and others (Senators Ozouf, Perchard and Shenton), who might be expected to know better”
The constables could be relied on to vote the ‘right’ way
The boss says: ‘I have decided, now go and do it
Like children, they clap their hands to their ears and stamp their feet in the hope that the argument will go away
what added value Deputy Ben (in a previous life) Fox contributes. At least his speeches are mercifully short.
These are the points I was commenting on.
Sour grapes do matter in the States if they cloud the issue. One does not expect petulance of this kind from a Senator even a failed one, yes he shouts for democracy, but read between the insults he only wants a democracy that suits him.
You should read his letter again. He is one who is dragging “the debate down to being one of mere personality issues”.
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Constituents? Failed Senators? Departments? Government? Speeches?
Come on! we’re talking 9 miles by 5 miles. Some UK farmers have lower pastures bigger than the entire Jersey landmass. Stop taking yourselves so seriously!!! Become part of Hampshire!! it’s simple!!!
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Geoff is right again on this one………
The desire to stifle honesty and openess in this island is a dark stain on it’s character, that is leaching around the world ,thank God for the internet. If You have nothing to hide,nor hidden agendas..then there would be nothing to worry about would there,thought the brown nosed establishment sycophants would shudder at the thought as light shining in dark corners is a s welcome to them as it is to Dracula.
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I would suggest that the blatant attack on freedom of speech has come from the deputy and his cronies who have repeatedly misused this privilege. Such restriction have never been necessary in the past but having listened to the States debates on the radio certainly agree that something needs to be done to stop such antics. Whilst three hour speeches may get a lot of press coverage and publicity for some failed cause, the repeated use of such tactics have seriously compromised the democratic decision making process of our Government
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