Health care ‘tourists’ are targeting us, States told
Wednesday 9th December 2009, 2:59PM GMT.
Assistant Health Minister Eddie Noel
THE number of people coming to the Island to abuse the health system, at a high cost to taxpayers, is believed to be increasing, the Assistant Health Minister said yesterday.
Some cases of what is known as health tourism are believed to involve Jersey residents who bring their elderly, sick relatives to live with them in the Island, so that when necessary they can be moved into nursing homes here.
It is those patients who can leave taxpayers covering their bill of up to £80,000 a year, while other health tourists come to live in the Island to take advantage of hospital surgery or drug therapy which can cost up to £50,000 per person a year – again at the Island’s expense.
Assistant Health Minister Eddie Noel revealed the figures in the States yesterday, in answer to questions from Deputy Roy Le Hérissier and others. He acknowledged that there was currently a loophole in the system which made this abuse possible.
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I thought Social Sec benefits only phased in after you’d worked here for a certain length of time – doesn’t that include non-emergency hospital treatment? If that’s changed, change it back – quick & easy solution.
NB Could they tell us how they manage to get treatment here at all? I have a relative in their 80s who’s lived – and paid tax – here for 40 years and has been waiting over 4 months for an emergency operation. Of course, she’s been ‘invited’ to go private – with the same surgeon.
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How hard can it be to prevent this, limit hospital treatment to those who can prove they have lived int he island and contributed for a minimum period. My friend who has lived here and paid tax & social forover 20 years is not entitled to free flights to the UK for essential medical treatment but people are coming here to have babies and receive free treatment.
Shut the door and cherry pick those we want in the island, it would stop it dead.
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So which nursing homes cost 80k a year for a place?
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This is something that needs to be stamped on with both feet and people repatriated where nescessary, it is an unnacceptable burden to those who contribute,the message should go out that there is no free lunch and those in transgression weeded out..Charity begins at home.
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So now immigrants are getting up to £80,000 a year for treatment from the Jersey tax payer. All fine and dandy for some but this really is beyond a joke. I would ask why the CoM haven’t taken the necessary steps to stop this?
How much money has been wasted on people who weren’t entitled to treatment and who like JAB’s elderly relative has been inconvenienced due to this?
JAB I would be speaking to people in the CoM to sort this out if I were you, especially now you know others are getting treated ahead of your relative, and have paid nothing in. In my opinion this is unscrupulous and I view these sorts as free loaders.
I would look into this, find out who wasn’t entitled to this treatment and send the bill to either them or their families. It is this sort of thing that has made it harder to balance the books and contributed to the introduction of GST over here.
What other little loopholes such as this are being exploited over here?
It would be very interesting to know what nationalities are up to this.
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Why on earth would any foreigner in his right mind want to come to Jersey for medical treatment?
Almost any UK hospital offers far better facilities than the Gloucester Street charnel house. There are superlative hospitals and clinics in France, Holland, Germany or Switzerland.
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Why cannot this be stopped – I don’t care if it takes armed guards outside the hospital.
JUST DO IT
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@ J-Cat #3
Most of them, it’s not unusual to pay around £2,000 a week.
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Maybe this is the reason i,ve had to wait nearly 6 months to see optician.
my doctor told me at end of july i would only have to wait a few weeks and i have finally got an appointment next week after phoning up 3 times they can now fit me in.
Meanwhile my eyesight has rapidly got worse,I can,t recognise people i know when out.
looking at tv is a nightmare,and i,m bumping and tripping over things.
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That doesn’t seem right. According to the social security website a certain amount of contributions have to be paidbefore entitlement to health care, or does that not apply if people are over retirement age?
I think health tourisim is a problem though, I know quite a few local people who retired to France, Spain, Thailand etc. then after 10 or 15 years when their health deteriorated, have returned to Jersey. I know they were paying Jersey tax/social during their working lives, but the didn’t for the first 10-15 years of their retirement.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but don’t private scheme patients (Jersey citizens or otherwise) also use the same surgery theatres, equipment, staff and surgeons at the General Hospital that are intended for social health care patients?
The benefit of a private scheme is that you don’t have to wait so long for treatment. This is of course at the expense of the less fortunate sufferers who get pushed further to the back of the queue.
Two fully independant hospitals – one private and one social health.
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Hey at least we know there are still some tourists coming to Jersey, even if they are coming to abuse our generous health care!
We might as well get a red carpet out for them and a limo from the airport. Tax payers money of course.
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i live in jersey for 40 years work hard 72 hours the week ;can afford to buy flat so go in france .but i lost my xmas bonus and need to paye complementaire for social traitement 170 euros the month and france need to paye for us but paye in jersey ;so wath justice???
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Surely these elderly relatives have not worked in Jersey for 6 months upwards, so how can they receive care? My partner’s SS payments did not cover my care in the few months when I had no cover so presumably these people are NOT covered by their children’s SS payments?
I hate that this happens, it means that people like myself (I’m here as it was easier for me to move my employment than it was for my Jersey partner) are frowned upon because of a few who are cheating the system. I would gladly have come here with no health problems but that wasn’t an option and I don’t like that I could encounter a negative attitude because of others’ actions. As it is, I feel guilty whenever I go to the doctor because I have only contributed for a short while, but I guess in the decades to come I’ll make up for it!
Also, my friend was born and raised in Jersey, and has lived and worked in Jersey all of his life but is in a job where he only gets paid in termtime (his pay sees him through the whole year). Every year he has to argue with Social Security that he should still be covered for medical care! He’s Jersey for pities sake and we’re to believe that people who are not Jersey can just walk in and demand treatment?
The hassle I had to go through to get treatment of any sort I’m amazed that this is happening at all.
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#7 Udupi, probably because other countries have more stringent checks in place to make sure those that are not entitled are (rightly) refused!
And having been recently treated in the hospital you mention I can assure you that the cleanliness, the staff and even the food were all fantastic. Jersey is a small hospital so naturally it lacks certain services, it does however have a very high standard in the services it offers and I trust that others who have used its services are rightly offended by your comments.
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#11 Dave, if the locals you speak of were born and raised here then I don’t have a problem with that. It is understandable that people might go back home when their situation changes greatly and right that the country where they paid many of their dues supports them.
This article seems to be about people who have paid no dues being brought into the island (when elderly) by their children (also immigrants).
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Frog 14 “i live in jersey for 40 years work hard 72 hours the week ;can afford to buy flat so go in france .but i lost my xmas bonus and need to paye complementaire for social traitement 170 euros the month and france need to paye for us but paye in jersey ;so wath justice???”
I must say your command of the English language after only 40 years is examplary, not sure what your point is though.
Dave comment 11 ” I know they were paying Jersey tax/social during their working lives, but the didn’t for the first 10-15 years of their retirement.”
I wasn’t aware that we were required to continue paying tax/social during retirement, isn’t the point of paying it our entire working lives to provide for those winter years?. If so then they would only be collecting on their entitlement, wouldn’t they?
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are we talking people from southern europe appearance and the former eastern bloc? typical racist jersey!
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They know who they are…then deal with it then instead of moaning about it!
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It would appear that the local Jersey people are expected to buy into expensive private healthcare schemes in order to receive any kind of healthcare treatment within Jersey and the UK.
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Udupi
You haven’t got a clue. I have spent quite some time in two major London hospitals – yes the staff are fab, treatment is good, but the food, hygiene, lack of facilities are appalling in run down dirty buildings where everything comes with a price tag, right down to the TV you are watching.
Our “Gloucester Street charnel house” as you have put it, might not offer all of the treatments a minority of Jersey patients need, that’s just not cost effective, but compared to most hospitals, our hospital is 5 star.
ID cards might be the one of the ways forward in this case, all your medical, social security info at hand to whatever doctor, no card, then an invoice irrespective of age or nationality before treatment begins.
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Put yourself in the shoes of the hospital staff for a moment….someone comes in needing treatment – are you seriously going to turn them away because they cannot pay and are not covered by insurance? What about your duty as a doctor to help the sick?
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This has been going on for years and years. I know it has and have seen it for myself. If I have then why haven’t the powers that be. No wonder my tax is going up again. Interesting just had notice of a 2% itis increase for next year, despite a pay freeze this year.
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@Adrian,
“….It would be very interesting to know what nationalities are up to this. ”
Just hope they are white as otherwise we are going to open the racism box.
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surely if these “tourists” can afford to get to Jersey in the first place then they can afford their own private healthcare??????
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#18 “are we talking people from southern europe appearance and the former eastern bloc? typical racist jersey! ”
If “we” means “you” then I’d say “yes”,… Otherwise? “No”. You’re the one that has suggested it might be specific nationalities so if anyone was being xenophobic (N.B. not ‘racist’) that would make it you.
Get off the political correctness bandwagon and actually think for a minute… anyone who has not paid into the system does not get free treatment! That means ANYone, the fact that their children might live in Jersey is neither here nor there, NEITHER is their nationality.
And if you want to insult a whole island as ‘racist’ then at least use an example of racism to do it, and at least show that you understand what racism is. The former Eastern bloc will contain many races, just as the commonly used term ‘White British’ also covers a number of races. Race and nationality are so very different.
But hey, someone had to make what is just a practicality that I like to call theft into a race issue JUST to have an unwarranted dig at Jersey. Jersey is no more racist than anywhere else and it shows a complete lack of understanding of human nature to suggest otherwise. Go and live around the world, if you’re one of the ‘White British’ it could make for a real eye-opener!
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#18 Has it occured to you that by reading something into the article that wasn’t actually stated that you are displaying xenophobia? What we infer probably shows our true opinions more than what we actually say.
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I couldn’t care less where this is racist or not – I just want to stop paying for the rest of the world to be allowed to come here and steal our healthcare.
Now that our government is running out of money it is totally obscene that they are not stopping this abuse.
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“He (Eddie Noel) acknowledged that there was currently a loophole in the system which made this abuse possible.”
Perhaps if we know the details of the alleged loophole we might be in a better position to discuss the problem, if one exists.
The word “apocryphal” features heavily in my present take on this story but I’m open to enlightenment by some real facts.
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I wanted to get free health care in England but they wouldn’t let me.
Typical Racist English!
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Leah Holmes
Leah, I have lived abroad and I can honestly say I’ve never come up against racism (and I mean racism not xenophobia)…but then again I’m white British, which means I’m a member of a first-class race. Unfortunately, there are also second, third and even fourth class races that are treated quite differently.
Touch wood, I have had little experience of hospitals…just once in Italy (when I had pneumonia) and once in Jersey, when I went the casualty department (in a real emergency). On both occasions doctors, nurses and even the non-medical staff were marvellous and I have nothing but praise for both hospitals.
However, there is, I must admit, a form of health-care rascism throughout Europe against the NON-first-class Europeans, I just hope it is not raising its ugly head in Jersey.
I understand that the island cannot afford to pay for people coming from outside but, if things change, what will happen when someone like froggy (who has worked all his life in Jersey) is faced with the problem of either bringing his sick and ageing mother to live with him or abandoning her in a country where he has never worked?
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Leah, I was referring to frog (13).
Sorry ‘frog’, for getting your name wrong.
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Bean Abroad,
“are you seriously going to turn them away because they cannot pay and are not covered by insurance”? No insurance or means of payment, then the simple answer to that is YES.
Take a look at the USA, is this not how they operate?
We can all get insurance, is this not now part of the requirements when we travel to the UK, A&E emergencies will be taken care of but admittance to the ward requires payment. No different to the rest of the world.
Why should these so called health tourists make waiting lists longer, created a black hole in health’s budget that is almost impossible to recover. This has an impact on those who live, work and have paid their benefits over the years for treatment should they ever require a visit to our hospital.
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We have lived in France for 9 years and have paid into the French Social Security system because of course Jersey does not have any agreement with regard to repayment and it is also the law to ‘join’. Obviously the English, who live here do not have to pay. We have to say that our treatment here cannot be faulted so therefore there is no need to go back to Jersey with regard to health. All we get from Jersey is our pensions – my husband is Jersey born (I do not agree with the word ‘bean’ – that was brought in by les Anglais) and I lived in Jersey since I was 14 yrs. If we wanted to return to Jersey it is possible but how would we manage to buy somewhere to live? We actually visited Jersey in September, the first time in 9 years, and couldn’t wait to get back home – france. We do not expect anything of Jersey except the pensions (and only wish that Jersey had gone ‘independent’ so that we were not tied to the Euro/Sterling which is causing a lot of problems – ie our pensions are reduced considerably – but it would be nice if we could receive the Jersey Christmas Bonus as a thank you for paying into the system for over 40 years.
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#31 No worries Born Warrior.
I feel for Frog’s situation but unfortunately we (society) have caused such situations. Once upon a time we wouldn’t have moved so far away from family members. It’s just life, it’s not always fair, but our decisions earlier in life (for career or whatever) will have repercussions later on. It is horrible and really unfortunate but it still cannot be the case that those who have paid into the system are paying for those that haven’t. Sorry Frog.
Being ‘white British’ I’ve experienced racism from other white British people, and from Asians in Glasgow. Many of my friends are musicians and they have experienced a lot of racism from African Americans in the USA, and some my British Asian friends say they experience more racism from other Asians than from white British people. They even get pressure from other Asians to lighten their skin colour! It’s just insane.
I just get angry that people act as if only ‘white Britons’ are racist because all races are equally guilty of racism and when people suggest that it’s just a problem with one race that in itself is racist.
Still, you’re not one of those that does all the ‘racist’ stuff so preaching to the converted
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Maybe it’s simply that I don’t consider myself part of a ‘first-class’ race. I’ve never understood why anyone would think that way about white people. Go far enough back people can be from different races, but go even further back eventually we all boil down to being descended from a handful of people who would probably have been a lot darker skinned than I am. Mind you, I’ve never met anybody paler
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Why don’t quallies come into the equation? Anybody with no quals, invariably have to live in accomodation barely fit for animals. Therefore, if we treat them like 2nd class citizens on a daily basis, why doesn’t that include making them suffer in poor health too? Perhaps we could force all immigrants take a health test. Anybody that’s seen as unfit could be given a free ticket to Guernsey. Let the donkeys have them
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Toastedteacakes complained that “It would appear that the local Jersey people are expected to buy into expensive private healthcare schemes in order to receive any kind of healthcare treatment within Jersey and the UK”.
What are your Jersey social security payments for?
As for Jersey residents having to pay for healthcare treatment in the UK this is entirely the fault of the Jersey Health & Social Services Department. It was routinely over-charging the United Kingdom for medical services rendered to British citizen taken ill in Jersey.
The UK government noticed this long-running fraud and, quite understandably, refused to renew the agreement.
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#37 because not everything is about quallies! I don’t have my quallies but I pay social security in the knowledge that it covers healthcare!
And as an immigrant the only person I get any hassle off of is other immigrants who assume because I’m from the UK there are different rules applying to me, how xenophobic is that? Same rules for me as other immigrants.
Mind you if an immigrant has a good education and secures a good job before they arrive then they will have no problem finding good accommodation, I believe it’s an education level or skills issue rather than a nationality one?
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As per race, colour, creed, it matters not. What makes a difference is that which is within. As what is within affects that which is without.
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Albert
“What are your Jersey social security payments for?”
Unfortunately these are mainly to provide the workshy the sort of luxuries in life that most of us hard workers (who pay for them) struggle to afford!!
Sad state of affairs.
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Nobody got any ideas on what this “loophole” is, then?
Are you reading this thread Eddie Noel?
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Seriously ?
Who does really want to come to Jersey for Healthcare ??? When the best hospitals and doctors are clearly in the UK of France.
We have so many examples of friends with very bad medical experiences in Jersey, we today consider that Condor Ferries is the best ambulance of the island.
Paranoia against foreigners, will not get Jersey anywhere, except perhaps far from its tourists industry golden age.
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Chris 34. You are very unlikely to receive a Jersey Christmas Bonus since you jumped ship, left Jersey and went to live in France.
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#43 “When the best hospitals and doctors are clearly in the UK of France.” Is there evidence to support this statement? I’m going to guess there isn’t because evidence suggests that people are wanting to come to Jersey for healthcare, hence this article.
It’s not paranoia against foreigners, it’s a simple fact that some people, who happen to be foreigners, are stealing from Jersey! Is it wrong to be annoyed about that? You pay into a system then you benefit from it, you don’t pay in then you don’t get to benefit. Pretty simple concept, and pretty universal also. It would be a very lame person that sat back and didn’t mind their hard-earned taxes being stolen.
I have heaps of friends with bad experiences of medical care in the UK, my own experiences there are not that great either. The UK and France may have more services (they are bigger after all) but bigger doesn’t mean better and personally I found Jersey’s General Hospital far cleaner and more friendly than any I’ve used in the UK.
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As I left Jersey almost 4 years ago after living there all my life and paying all contributions etc etc I was still under the impression that I would need insurance to cover me should I need treatment whilst visiting family there.This obviously being since the agreement came to an end between Jersey and the UK.How then are people able to bring in relatives and obtain all this free treatment for them?Maybe I am missing something but I don’t understand how this is possible-it certainly never used to be so what has changed.Can someone please explain???
Chris (34)No you won’t get the Xmas bonus.My husband (who is older than me!!) looked in to it but you have to be resident there during December but as he was over 60 he automatically got £250 from the UK government which is far better than the Jersey offering.I do know of a 90 year old lady who was refused her bonus as she was staying abroad with family for Xmas and the few weeks before so she couldn’t have it!!!!Honestly!
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Well it makes sense. We must have built up huge experience and specialised knowledge in the treatment of liver diseases. Our favourite national hobby on this rock sees to that!
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Re my #29 and #42
Perhaps this will be thirdtime lucky, but not holding my breath…
Does anyone know what the “loophole” is?
Is it Jersey’s best kept secret that only these “furrinners” with elderly relatives know about?
Is there a gagging order on Eddie Noel?
Are there any investigative journalists out there?
Or is the whole story a(n) L.O.B. intended to divert attention away from some other issue?
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We are told Jersey ‘needs’ immigrants because of ‘the aging population’. Jersey people are made to sell their houses to fund care home fees.
However, our ‘necessary’ immigrants are allowed to bring their elderly in with them and taxpayers fund their care – IN WHAT WORLD DOES THIS MAKE SENSE?
If Social Security come after my relatives to sell their houses to pay for care I will be straight down to the nearest lawyer’s office.
THIS IS DESCRIMINATION AGAINST JERSEY PEOPLE
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“If Social Security come after my relatives to sell their houses to pay for care I will be straight down to the nearest lawyer’s office.”
You might then have to sell the house to pay the lawyer!
Then with no money left you can go “on the parish”.
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No.50 You are correct, if a person owns a house then they are certainly not entitled to any free healthcare never mind parish handouts.
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49 overpopulated
Hear hear you are quite right.
I had to listen to my 94 year old Grandfather saying that he wanted to die as he was fed up with the States taking all of his money to pay for a nursing home. Of the 15 people on his floor he was the only one paying approx £500 a week for an 8 by 6 room, this taking all of the money that he wanted to leave for his family. When he died he was just about penniless after paying into the system for his whole life.
I didn’t think about it at the time but he used to say that not many of them even spoke our language, at least now with the ‘health tourists’ I now know why!
Come on Jersey, do something about it…
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#52 Too true. As in the UK, if you save you are penalised and if you don’t you are penalised! Is it any surprise there are those that keep income hidden from the Government because clearly WE are now the mugs and they are just ensuring the ‘legal thieves’ don’t steal their money.
My friend saved and then the thicko bankers lost a large part of his savings, so now he wants to put that money into bricks and mortar, except the Government will screw him over for it if he ever needs care in later life.
So are we to save or not? Cause frankly it no longer seems worthwhile. Those that have never worked a day in their lives get given everything given to them and those that have never contributed in Social Security are getting care when they are elderly! It seems that we should just spend, spend, spend, enjoy holidays etc and make sure there is no money for the Government to take when we’re old.
This situation needs sorted and fast!
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Will somebody who knows please answer Rozel Aubin !
I too would like to know what this loophole is.
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I am a non-local who came here about 3 years ago to get some free health care treatment from Jersey. My teeth were in a bad way, so I moved here for a few months got a new set of Peraly Whites done by the hospital and then moved back, and why not? Jersey has been robbing the UK for years, just doing my bit for Queen and country.
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If any of you have any sense, you must give your money away to your family before you go senile otherwise the States of Jersey will take what you have worked hard for all your life.
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Correct #56
You must sign over your wealth to your heirs at least 7 years before you need care, or Jersey will take it all down to the last 19k I think it is.
Spend all you earn, squander it all? – Free care for you.
Save, live carefully, build up something to pass on to your children? – Lose it all!
So don’t go thinking you’ll be OK later in life because Mumsy and Dadsy have a house that will come your way one day. At the first hint of nursing care being required, our senior citizens have misery heaped upon misfortune by seeing all their lifetime’s hard work being for nothing.
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