Union anger over plans to cover for striking teachers
Saturday 12th December 2009, 2:57PM GMT.
Unite local official Nick Corbel
UNION bosses have reacted angrily to plans that teaching assistants cover for classroom teachers if they strike over pay.
Teaching assistants have been asked if they would be prepared to do extra duties if their teacher colleagues walk out.
Teaching unions announced last week that their members were prepared to take industrial action in their dispute with the States.
They are ready to act in protest at the withdrawal of free collective bargaining and the pay freeze imposed on the public sector workforce.
Nick Corbel, of the Unite Union, has described the move as ‘out of order’. He contends that Education director Mario Lundy is effectively responsible for putting his members in a difficult position.
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If we give in to the teachers then all other states employees will throw the rattle out the pram. They will not get a pay rise, they will only embarass themselves by striking.
As has been said by many before me on this forum, they are lucky to have secure pensionable jobs in this climate – wake up and smell the coffee.
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Since when have T.A.’s had the qualifications necessary for teaching, as a parent I would be VERY concerned !!!
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Mario Lundy, who is well respected in education, should stick by his guns on this one. The public should not be held to ransom over states pay when the private sector is in unemployement turmoil and surely the teachers can see this?
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If I was a TA I’d just refuse. TA’s are not qualified to teach, if they are deemed competent then they should have their wages doubled or trebled to bring them in line with teachers.
What next I wonder? Maybe get the loppy pop person in to teach? I’m sure all this will go down a storm with the parents who won’t want to see their little ones disadvantaged, or themselves more importantly put out for a day or two.
I am sure shutting down the states schools for a day or two will get the desired results for the teachers. I am sure the management are also aware of this, hence the need to stop the proposed actions in their tracks, by any means possoble. The authorities are not going to want to have to climb down as it will undermine their authority and make them look silly in the eyes Joe Public. Watch this space.
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I am disgusted that teachers are even considering striking given the salaries they earn compared to other folk with similar responsibilities, and even more disgusted when I read of the poor standard of education Jersey children are receiving.
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Give them all a pay rise. Increase private sector taxes to pay for it. Private sector staff pay will increase to cover extra tax burden to keep standard of living maintained. Public sector will ask for more money to keep up with private sector increase. Private sector taxes will go up to pay for it. Private sector staff will then ask for more pay to cover tax burden.
Hmmm. Where is this going? It does not take a rocket scientist to understand basic economic fundementals in a climate of limited cash availabllity.
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So parents are going to be put out by having their kids off school so we’ll bring in ‘babysitters’ so they can still be at school but not actually learn anything? What a great plan!
#5 Marcus, I thought Jersey kids were receiving a good standard of education? Undoubtedly the English curriculum has dumbed down a little over the years but I wouldn’t be surprised if the reason kids seem less able and less intelligent these days is more to do with a lack of educational support being given at home rather than it being a problem with the classroom itself. I believe many parents underestimate just how important their input is for their child’s education. School is where the knowledge if received but home is where it can be put into practice and sink into the brain.
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Marcus (5) – teachers have similar responsibilities compared to whom? Fat cat bankers with their fat cat bonuses of the past which aided the spiral into recession? As to the “poor standard of education Jersey children are receiving” god forbid that parents should be sitting down with their kids every evening to help them with their homework which is designed to reinforce what the little darlings learn in the classroom…!
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As a parent I would rather home school my children for a year than give in to bully union action.
If they strike I will loose all respect for teachers.
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perhaps we could just leave the children alone in the classes then
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Nick Corbel irritates me everytime he is either on TV or mentioned in this excellent newspaper. I am fully behind Mr Mario Lundy and like all heads of civil servants somebody has to put their foot down and say ‘look there is a recession on so be realistic!’
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“Nick Corbel irritates me everytime he is either on TV or mentioned in this excellent newspaper.”
Obviously the right man for the job, then!
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Are yes the fat cat bankers who will still be geting their bonuses even though they have played a part in causing all the problems for everyone else and caused others to lose their jobs!
As per the teachers they are only trying to get back their bargaining rights thats all. Nothing bullying about that in my book. I see it as bullying to be told we are not negotiating this year because times are hard. If there is nothing extra in times of plenty then don’t expect a cut when times are hard.
As per a shortage of money there is no such thing with quantitive easing. Just do what the UK government and others have done and print more out of thin air. No one seems to have noticed so far.
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Adrian sorry to burst the bubble but the crisis has nothing to do with any Jersey bankers!
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Matt (14) – are you saying Jersey trust companies did not assist in fueling the crisis by providing Employee Benefit Trust structures and the like which are basically a means of giving banking management tax-free bonuses?
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“..sorry to burst the bubble but the crisis has nothing to do with any Jersey bankers!”.
Of course it hasn’t. How could Adrian be so wrong.
Jersey bankers have absolutely no connection with the global economy. They are, to a man, altruistic philanthropic, frughal living people who would never dream of accepting a bonus leave alone entertain the idea of living high on other people’s money, turning any they haven’t spent on property, gold and yachts into Euros and watching it double in purchasing power.
They would go to the unthinkable extent of taking a massive pay cut in order to ensure that elderly depositors with no other means of support can still receive some interest on their savings.
Huge numbers of them are at this moment thinking of leaving banking as a direct result of the moral dilemma thrust upon them by the banking world outside the island.
I stress yet again, and I am sure Matt will agree with me, that there is absolutely no connection between Jersey banking and the disatrous situation elswhere.
How can there be a connection when any fool can see that we have different notes?
All right thinking people with common sense will completely absolve Jersey’s finance industry from any blame whatsoever.
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Actually a proportion of TAs are qualified to teach, they just can’t get a teaching job so work as a TA until they can get one. As jon said, would you all prefer the alternative of leaving the kids alone in the classroom??? Besides, its hardly as bad as when the fire service went on strike, thats actually life threatening! I don’t believe a week off school will harm a childs learning for life!!
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Mogit + Adrian,
It is irrelevant that TA’s aren’t properly qualified.
Presumably the idea is to provide cover so that children can still attend school, thereby avoiding the need for parents to have to take time off work. A sensible move really.
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Industrial action does not necessarily mean a strike, to do that would mean complete withdrawal of labour which equals no wages.
Teachers are not daft they will first of all withdraw good will and work to contract. This will mean they will not cover lunch hour and after hours activity etc, the sort of thing you do not need a qualified teacher to do.
What Nick is getting angry about is “teaching assistants cover” for this will be adequate and will mean teachers, to make their action “bite” will have to have a full scale strike with the attendant loss of pay.
If we have a government with a backbone, all they will have to do as soon as there is a one day strike, lock the gates until the teachers agree what the rest of us have agreed, no increases in wages until the economy recovers.
I “did” have some sympathy for their cause, But to threaten industrial action is way out of line.
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A week off school only harms a childs learning when all the rest are still being taught.
I can think of many interesting things that I know were only taught once and I would have missed if I’d been absent on that day.
Through chickenpox I missed the lessons when the rest of the class were learning long division. It left me way behind my classmates for a very long time.
This is why I disapprove of parents taking their little darlings on holiday during term (and they spoil my quiet holiday).
Strikes and boiler failures just put every one back by the same factor.
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Thats right Matt, Jersey has nothing to do with the crisis. A good example of this complete lack of involvement would be a Jersey company advising on, structuring and managing the Granite SPV for Northern Rock’s mortgage book.
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My understanding is that teachers are withdrawing the cover part of the duties not the teaching. Surely if Teaching Assistants are will ing to cover for supervision thus enabling the schools to remain open that is better than closing
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Since when have Jersey banks been investing in the sub prime mortgage debacle and what Jersey stock exchange do we have to match bonuses in the UK? ESOPS have nothing to do with it either and they are all fully tax compliant.
Obviously the posters that blame Jersey bankers have a very limited idea as to what they actually do in Jersey.
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I get and am getting more and more fustrated with being accused of being responsible for the rescession.
Yes I work in a Bank – no I don’t get over paid, and no I don’t have a big fat bonus …… I am a single mother who supports herself on what little salary I have left after paying my childminder !
I hardly think as a part time assistant I am liable in anyway shape or form for the state of the economy easpically the ones living on a tiny Island that is 9 by 5 ….. NOT EVERYONE WHO WORKS IN A BANK IS A FAT CAT !!!! ….How about we pick the top 50 richest people and cut their net worth in half and give something back !!
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J-Cat the Northern Rock structure was fully transparent and not subject to tax avoidance or have anything to do with the demise of Northern Rock which was mainly down to the UK Government’s miss handling. Are you actually from Jersey?
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Jonty it isn’t irrelevant at all and you will probably find that the union that the T.A.’s belong to prohibits doing teachers work and this would include looking after a class of children.
What you need to realise is for a strike to be effective then it shouldn’t be circumvented.
I say give the kids a couple of days off and this will soon be sorted out when the suits start kicking up a fuss with the CoM. The Com will soon cave in when the pressure is applied to the pressure points. Talking often gets no where unfortunately.
PJG just because others have rolled over doesn’t mean everyone has to it. It is up to those with just cause to push for what they feel is right. We all know that when times are good that companies don’t tend to give extra.
When the bankers don’t get their bonuses and payrises then maybe others might think twice but not before then. It is this sector that caused this economic meltdown.
I myself would take the bankers bonuses off them and give these bonuses to people who are more deserving of it. It shouldn’t be up to others to make the sacrifice whether in jobs or pay cuts.
As per thinking Jersey finance had no part to play get real Jersey finance is part of the global network and it is all interlinked. Granite is a good example to use. Can Matt explain what went on here then as he seems to know all about what Jersey finance does?
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Keith is right, Granite is a poor example to use. Jersey simply takes in deposits and does not lend money out to the outside world. This is why in a nutshell we are not responsible for banks that caved in from sub prime lending. People that even dare to use Jersey as responsible for this have both a limited understanding of Jersey operations and have obviously not bothered to read the Foot Report.
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Flighty (and others) just to clarify I do not direct blame for the recession on the “shop floor” workers of the banking sector. I do understand that these people work extremely hard for very little reward. It is towards the upper management structures (fat cats who receive tax minimising (though legal) bonuses) that I am pointing the finger of blame. And yes ESOPs and EBTs are amongst the vehicles used to distribute these bonuses!
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Adrian, surely if the cost of living is going down as it has been in the UK then by you have had a pay rise by the fact you have more expendable income.
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I think Disheartened may need a book on how the finance industry works this Christmas
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“I myself would take the bankers bonuses off them and give these bonuses to people who are more deserving of it.”
Err, Jersey doesn’t have fat cat bankers with big bonuses. It has some bankers, but not the rainmakers or prop. traders that get the big bonuses. Jersey does admin and booking, not investment banking.
So you may as well say “I’d tax the Muratti team because in the paper it said in the UK footballers were earning millions”.
Teachers do alright. We’d all like to get paid more but there is no shortage of people wanting to be teachers and most teachers seem to make a career out of it. They should pipe down.
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Alan (30) – been there, worked in finance and was a puppet which administered some of these benefit schemes. Thanks for the thought anyway
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Adrian #26
Nobody has rolled over, they have just taken a responsible review of the economy.
You on the other hand always appear to back any sort of industrial dispute no matter what is being asked for or the disruption it causes.
If the teachers do have a full on strike who do you think will suffer, there are more working class families out there than the suits you seem so set on hurting.
Same with BA striking over Christmas, who do you think will suffer, same again the average wage earning families who want to to join their extended families for probably the only times they can get together.
Adrian before you advocate a strike, remember the coal miners strikes, now ask yourself the question, who lost out ?
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The reason behind this strike is nonsensical. This strike is not about demands for salary increase but the power to negotiate for an increase. The Unions know that it is irrational and unjustifable for an already well paid public sector to strike for an increase in salary in these slow economic times so instead they hide behind an emotive and sensitive right being the “power to negotiate”.
I agree that the power to negotiate is fundamental, but in this case this important notion is being disgracefully abused by the union to justify their ever waning reason for existence. You just need to look at the possible outcomes to see why.
Outcome 1) Teachers strike, COM cave into their demands and give the teachers the power to negotiate, teachers then go back to work happy that if they needed to they could negotiate. This outcome has achieved absolutely nothing as the teachers are in a no better position financially. Meanwhile children and the economy is badly affected by the stunt that changed nothing for teachers or pupils.
Outcome 2) (and more likely) same as Outcome 1 but instead of going back to work they now threaten industrial action over the fact the COM refuse to meet demands under their power for negotiation. Again pointless as we are back to the irrational and unjustified situation given the economic times we are in.
The COM have done this for a reason; to save more and spend less. Power to negotiate concept is being used as a publicity stunt by the union and nothing more. If public sector workers want pay rises when tax receipts are falling, I suggest they alone pay 6% GST to cover their own salary increases which is as pointless as the reasoning behind the strike.
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…Oh and a point of reference, most public sectors across the world are seeing cuts in staff numbers and salary. Our public sector should be grateful it’s not come to that yet.
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Do you think Nick Corbel would make a good actor?
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Matt #36
would he make a good anything ?
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Mindless selfish picket lines.
We can all stand outside schools on the picket lines burning exam papers and childrens drawings.
Its the children who suffer here – not the selfsh teachers. If they want more money why not go and work for the banks!
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Arthur Brain (38). I gave up working in finance many years ago (and the nice salary, health insurance, cheap loans, bonuses, free tea/coffee/christmas parties, flexible holidays, free evenings) in order to become a teacher. You certainly don’t do it for the money but that doesn’t mean teachers shouldn’t have the right to negotiate.
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@ H #39
“…ou certainly don’t do it for the money…”
Comparatively the money isn’t bad, but I agree that money shouldn’t be the sole reason somebody choose to do any job, least of all one such as teaching.
“… but that doesn’t mean teachers shouldn’t have the right to negotiate…”
People should, and do, have the right to negotiate ; but to negotiate you need(at least) two parties, and what people don’t have is a right to force somebody else to negotiate with them. Negotiation should always be a voluntary act. What’s happened here is that the States have said there is nothing to negotiate; the teachers and Unite need to either accept this, or decide to move on to other employment, not try and force people to negotiate.
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I think the unions gave up the right to negotiate when they insisted a few years ago that there be no job losses as a result of any squeeze in public finances. Perhaps a maths teacher should have explained at that point that if the total resources went down (in relative terms) but the number of recipients remained the same…
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39 H, ‘negotiation’ over something so petty it results in childrens education suffering – come on its a really bad move by the teachers, on any view.
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J Lamborrari either you have a right to negotiate or you don’t. What you are saying is if any employer so feels they can alter the ground rules when it suits them. This is not what negotiation is all about. This is dictatorship in disguise as far as I am concerned.
It looks to me as if you don’t see anything wrong with this?
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I have a friend who is a primary school teacher, this teacher gets to work each day over an hour early for work which is unpaid,works through lunch most days, and usually does not finish until at least an hour after contracted time each day. And of course every Saturday gives up a morning to run an out of school club, all of this unpaid because of the love of the job. how many of you on here who have commented give that much free time to your own job not many i expect.Teachers are not going to strike but are considering working to contract, so those of you who are complaining about them phone a school of your choice and give up 14hrs a week for free, not many takers i expect .
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#38 Probably cause they’d be overqualified.
Teachers have consistently been underpaid, this is no doubt because it was traditionally a female profession. Other public sector jobs that have traditionally been male professions are, unsurprisingly, not so underpaid!
#5 wants to talk about responsibility? There is no job in the private sector (other than private school teaching) that has any level of responsibility comparative to that of a teacher. You can fail in almost any private sector job and continue to get employment (some can still even get big bonuses), but one false complaint made against you by some brat and your career can be ended.
A job like teaching is not as ‘transferable’ as other jobs and once in teaching chances are you will be a teacher for many years to come. Unfortunately Governments know this and they must not be allowed to continue to underpay based on the assumption that teachers are somewhat captive and will find it hard to move out of teaching.
I don’t agree with this strike (with it being based purely on money) but has anyone considered that teachers may be willing to accept their level of pay if their job was still teaching and teaching alone? It’s amazing how money can be less significant if your working environment is good. Teachers now fill a number of roles without the proper training for these roles but with the additional (and often extremely serious) responsibility! We need to get back to allowing teachers to teach and let the Governments deal with policing unruly children, neglectful parents, counselling, forced marriages etc.
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@ Adrian #43
“…either you have a right to negotiate or you don’t…”
And as I said above, people do, and rightly so, have that right.
“…What you are saying is if any employer so feels they can alter the ground rules when it suits them…”
No, that is not at all what I’ve said.
If the teachers ask for more money, and they are told they can’t have it, there has been, albeit brief, negotiation. They can the choose to accept the only offer, or leave their jobs, giving the proper notice they agreed to in their contract of course.
Are you saying that all negotiation must be drawn out for the sake of it? even if one party enters knowing the process is just a sham? Or would you force parties to make each other an offer, and then accept a middle figure? utterly ridiculous.
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@ Mr Sensible #44
“…how many of you on here who have commented give that much free time to your own job not many i expect…”
Not in my present job, as I don’t feel the need, but certainly I could match your friend’s commitment in my former job.
Then when working conditions changed I considered my position, and recognised that I no longer wanted to work under those conditions; did I strike? no I chose to change job. I would never have complained, and threatened the business by taking action designed to hurt it; and on handing in my notice my employer offered various options in a bid to have me stay. Proper negotiation without the need for threats.
If the teachers want to work strictly to rule I’d support them, but to strike is to act like a bully.
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In today’s economic world, it’s long over due for teachers to take some social responsibly by realizing that everyone, including them, is going to be required to work a lot harder, for a lot less and for a whole lot longer. In all, they’re lucky to have a job and to have one in a somewhat decent social and local environment.
As for the overweight Union Bosses who feed like parasites off their own; until such time they are able to actually create wealth and bring foreign exchange into our Island, let them return to the shores of the UK where they may once again find solace amid the Socialist slag heaps of their own origin.
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#45 Leah:
“There is no job in the private sector (other than private school teaching) that has any level of responsibility comparative to that of a teacher”:
what about doctors, pilots, bus dirvers, criminal lawyers? Sorry, but looking after a class of kids, although challenging at times, is not some saintly profession carrying the ultimate degree of responsibility!
“Teachers have consistently been underpaid”
Really? How do you work that out? Maybe in the UK, but in Jersey they start on more than anyone fresh to law, banking or accountancy and have the potential to rise to over twice the average wage in Jersey. Can’t really see what the issue is there.
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#49 I did say “comparable” did I not?
Senior doctors have greater responsibility! Junior doctors do in many ways but they are covered by a senior doctor, teachers don’t have this backup. I wouldn’t say the same was the case for bus drivers or criminal lawyers at all, not sure how you make that comparison. Pilots are well-paid, reflecting not so much the responsibility but the high-level of training they must maintain and the fact that as a commercial pilot your career won’t be as long as with other jobs.
There is no reason that teachers should not start on a salary higher than those fresh to law, banking or accountancy because they can directly affect a child’s life. Although it is abundantly clear that parents have too little regard for just how much a teacher can affect their child’s life. Also they have day to day contact with children and are expected to not only teach but watch out for signs of abuse, discipline the kids etc etc. The person with most responsibility for a chlid should be its parents yet many kids spend more hours with their teacher than with their parents.
And, as I pointed out you can maintain careers in law, banking and accountancy with all sorts of accusations against you, this is NOT the case with teaching!
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“And, as I pointed out you can maintain careers in law, banking and accountancy with all sorts of accusations against you, this is NOT the case with teaching!”
Actually, all partners at a law firm have unlimited liability for the actions of the partnership. So every piece of advice could lead to them losing their homes. Don’t think many teachers could deal with that pressure.
Being a teacher is really not a difficult job. That is not to say it isn’t valuable, but lets not pretend its the most difficult thing in the world. My wife started a teacher training course (PGCE) about 15 years ago. She was taken aside by the tutors after 3 months and they said “you’re too good for teaching, it would be a waste”. That’s the truth of it – even the people training teachers know it is a job for the second raters, second earner in the family, for the people who want long holidays and career breaks. Fair play, but don’t believe the hype.
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It is high time that the JEP ran a centrefold feature on that one man success story, Mad Foetus.
Was it the young Nelson who was supposed to have said “What is fear”. I imagine the young M.F. must have said “What is low self esteem”.
Now we are told that the missus is no loser either.
Send a reporter and photographer around from Jersey now. The underachievers in the island need a role model.
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Forgot to say, there are lawyers and police that have broken the law in their own lives and still not lost their jobs! There are accountants that make basic mistakes on a fairly regular basis that are picked up by staff ‘lower down the food chain’ and more recently I’ve become aware of just how many very basic mistakes some highly respected architects have made.
We can all make mistakes but when these mistakes are so basic that a layman could recognise them and so common then the salary (and the chartered status) are no longer justified.
I used to think people in these types of jobs were very smart, but I grew up and learned it isn’t so. It makes the pay divide with other more menial jobs seem even more galling.
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@ Leah Holmes #53
What on earth has that got to do with whether teachers should or shouldn’t be striking?
News Flash: Humans aren’t perfect!!
You seem to keep saying that teaching is such a responsible role because they have sole charge of their charges(I actually very much dispute this as most classes I’ve seen recently have had a classroom assistant, and all schools have a head teacher/heads of dept. that would be over-seeing the teacher), but what about those other people ‘lower down the food chain’? When I was a student I pointed out the failings and mistakes of teachers, and nothing got done other than getting me into trouble! Seems to me the extra value you place on teachers is a waste, we’d be better of paying them less and having a classroom assistant to monitor them.
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C Le Verdic,
Be in no doubt – I am an underachiever. As I have disclosed on thisisjersey before, I have suffered from depression and know all about low self esteem. I just happen not to buy into this modern idea that we all do valuable work. Most of us – and I include myself – do nothing of great value and will leave nothing to posterity. The only purpose of what we do is to earn money and have as much enjoyment while we are at work and as much time off work as possible.
Most teachers these days don’t even understand Latin, know nothing of Shakespeare or Milton and as a society we allow such people – who 100 years ago would not themselves be regarded as educated – to be put in charge of education. Madness!
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No harm done, Mad Foetus. I won’t argue with the above. Although employed continuously from the finish of my education until an early retirement that you would relish, I was lucky enough never to work!!!
As for your second paragraph, I could have written that myself. The Latin, Shakespeare and Milton never did me any harm and left me with a wealth of quotations. Didn’t get me a big salary, though. Like your missus I was far too good to be a teacher, so never got their pay.
Seasons greetings, C.
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Leah: “I did say “comparable” did I not?”
Your use of the word comparable makes no sense unless you meant to say that no job in the private sector carries the same or a higher degree of responsibility than that of a teacher. Don’t try to wriggle out of it now.
“I wouldn’t say the same was the case for bus drivers or criminal lawyers at all, not sure how you make that comparison.”
So you don’t think that being responsible for hundreds of passengers is “comparable” to a teacher? Or being responsible for protecting an individual’s right to a fair trial?
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