Too tough on drugs mules?
Tuesday 29th December 2009, 3:00PM GMT.
Home Affairs Minister Ian Le Marquand
SENTENCES for criminals who smuggle drugs into Jersey should be reduced, Home Affairs Minister Ian Le Marquand has said.
The former Magistrate said that the punishment for drugs couriers – or mules – was too tough and that the Court of Appeal should now review the sentencing guidelines.
He said that the Royal Court’s sentencing powers, which were set about 15 years ago, were becoming out of date and were no longer acting as a deterrent to those who want to smuggle drugs into the Island.
He is due to discuss the matter with the Bailiff Michael Birt and the Deputy Bailiff William Bailhache early in the New Year.
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If present drug laws are not a deterrent they should be increased. The States should not admit defeat and relax the laws.
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They should not be put in prison here at vast expense to tax payers they should be deported back to their country of origin.
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is this another April Fools joke? The sentances are no longer acting as a deterrent, so we’ll shorten the sentances. That’ll fix it – genius.
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So Ian Le Maruand said that the Royal Court’s sentencing powers, which were set about 15 years ago, were becoming out of date and were no longer acting as a deterrent to those who want to smuggle drugs into the Island.
What has changed in the past 15 years? Jersey is still getting plenty of illegal drugs smuggled into the island and the authorities need to deter these criminals from smuggling. It seems the former magistrate is still soft on crime and soft on the causes of crime.(I suppose there will now be a barrage of submissions, from the lunatics trying to take over the asylum, advocating legalisation etc. People telling us that drugs do no harm etc., etc. Nonsense).
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EH? I don’t get it. If the sentences are too tough AND not acting as a deterrent, what effect does the Senator think reducing the sentences will have? It certainly won’t make the sentences any more of a deterrent. Sentences for such offences must be tough.
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Too tough. Relative to where. I believe, as has been clearly demonstrated today, China has somewhat more draconian measures in place. We do not want drugs in the Island and therefore anything that helps discourage importation should be encouraged and strengthened not mitigated.
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he’s probably right, but what is the right answer. the problem we have at the moment is that the rewards of drug smuggling (ie financial) into jersey are so great that people are prepared to take the risk, therefore the arguement stands that the greater the risk, the greater the reward, so making sentences tougher only makes the smugglers more determined to succeed by whatever means available.
but how do you make an illegal activity worthless on the street.. that is the key
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How about we adopt Chinese or Thai policies on drug smuggling?
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Is he on something–DRUGS ruin lifes no mules no drugs simple–come down on them very very HARD
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We need to adopt similar deterrents to China and Thailand so that we can knock this drug problem on the head once and for all. Otherwise they are playing a ‘never win situation’. Or they could try legalising some drugs but I doubt out Home Affairs Minister would even bother looking into that one with hus background…
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#1,#2,#3
I think you could be jumping to conclusions without appreciating the full story. Drug mules are not jet set young people trying to fund their lifestyle, they are usually naive, vulnerable men and women from deprived backgrounds whose fates are totally disregarded by those at the top of the drug supply chain. They do not own or profit from selling the drugs, and are often first-time offenders.
For example long deterrent sentences handed out in the UK to drug mules from abroad were also regarded as ineffective, as the mules were ignorant of the risk before leaving their homes. In addition, these mules were often coerced and/or informed that, if caught, they would simply be deported.
Filling prisons with vulnerable people while their family suffer abroad should become a thing of the past.
Educating the people at the source of the problem is the way forward, ensuring that these people know that they will not only be deported but there will be a custodial sentance before hand.
The Crown Foreign Office has begun doing this and quotes a massive decrease in the people doing it and a huge saving on prision costs post the offences not occuring.
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It sounds as if Senator Le Marquand wants to encourage the importation and use of drugs rather than stopping it.
I do not know what the drug death figures are here but in the UK the ones I have seen suggest that a few hundred people die each year from illegal drugs. Around 100,000 still die each year from using tobacco so I would define that one as the most dangerous drug and I would like to see it banned.
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Seems like everyone gets this except Le Marquand, if the existing policy is not working as a deterrant then it needs to be reviewed with a view to enforcing a more effective hardline policy. Or is this too simple?
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Dave #3 and Spring Heeled Jack #8.
Get real this is Jersey; transportation to the Minquiers, please.
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Is this the same Ian Le Marquand that stated very clearly at the hustings that he was going to get tough on crime? One year on and we’ve still to see it!
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Think some-one’s had too much mulled wine – the heading doesn’t agree with the statement; too tough on mules, but relaxing sentence?
Think there may be an apology tomorrow…..it just doesn’t make sense!
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Yet another Le Marquand gem (not!)..bizarre ideas as a Magistrate becomimg even more so as he ages. Not maturing well methinks; as doth so many other folk comment more and more frequently. Too tough???!!! How insulting to those families that’ve been decimated by the evil trade these traffickers perpetuate not only through their addict victims but by the misery of violence and debt collection they then enforce amongst the innocent kin left to deal with the aftermath. Get a life Senator, visit the real world….
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I think the person who wrote this artical is on something
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For thouse who think that the Senator has gone a bit soft, I believ that what he is saying is that thouse involved in drug smuggling really are at their wits end, and really dont care if they get locked up and looked after. The alternatives are getting beaten up in the pursuit of repayment of drug related debts.
If Jersey were to adopt Chinese style justice for drug smugglers, there would still be drug smuggling. (If Drink Drivers were given life time bans, and 20 years in jail, there would still be Drink Drivers)
I understand that most prisoners here in Jersey are in prison for drug related offences, and this cannot be right, when recent casses of serious assult resulting in permanent injury to the victim are virtually let off with sentances of less than 5 years.
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With all due respect Mr Le Marquand, as a politician I DO have respect for, I think you are very sadly wrong on this one.
Those who import drugs are very rarely drugs users themselves, just preying on the very harrowing illness of addiction to make money. They are well aware they have a captive market and care not one jot what harm they are doing to users, their families and the wider social implications of their evil ‘trade’.
They are at the very top of the heap, and as far as I am concerned no sentence is too long. Meanwhile those at the very bottom of this sad pile get stiff sentences when they should be getting help to beat their addictions, not locked up.
Sentencing should act as a deterrent not an invitation to make it more attractive to get drugs into the Island.
Drugs KILL – killers are murderers, simple as.
Please, please have a rethink on this one Senator.
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8. Spring Heeled Jack
How about we adopt Chinese or Thai policies on drug smuggling?
Exactly, I agree.
We should at least give it a go for 1 year as a test.
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7…..Legalise it…it gets in anyway…prohibition did not work with booze so what’s the difference…..purely because of profit people without scruples sell junk dope that has been cut and mixed with Who knows what. illicit moonshine booze killed thousand..so at least when it was legalised ..quality control existed….people will do it so we may as well ensure the quality and tax it….
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GMR # 11. There is already ample education and awareness. Enforcement is just part of the picture I agree. However getting soft on criminals is not the answer.
At the hustings prior to his election, Ian Le Marquand promised a lot of policies that he claimed would reduce crime…….where are they?Problems seems to have got worse under his leadership and now he comes up with a crass idea like reducung sentencing. He is putting forward his own views and not the thoughts of the people who voted him into office.
I’d have thought he would do more to reduce the amount of street violence by ensuring there are sufficient police officers on the streets, at times when analysis shows these crimes are apt to occur.
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WHAT ???
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@JG you really have no idea at all. What drugs kill ? Heroin adicts overdose because being illegal they do not know the purity / strength of what they take. The most commonly used drug cannabis does not kill. Millions of people in the UK take ecstasy which is about as dangerous as riding horses.
Alchol and cigarettes kill hundreds of thousands every year have some perspective.
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I disagree with Mr le Marquand on this point. There needs to be a harsh deterrent in place to stop the island being targeted. As was discussed recently, Jersey is an extremely lucrative and thus inticing market for the vermin that traffic drugs.
Personally I am of the opinion that the recent criminalisation of Spice and associated ‘legal highs’ will have immediately increased the amount of illegal drugs being brought in. Yes, it may not be ‘safe’ – because no mind-altering substance ever can be – but it’s a lot less harmful than the alternative. Surely the authorities were not naive enough to think that simply banning legal highs would actually stop many people choosing to actually get high? Now the only option for them is to visit their local drug-dealer, thus buying into the black market when all those lovely profits could instead be going into the States coffers, thereby helping to reduce the Annual Deficit and reducing tax for Jose Public.
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Wake up and smell the coffee. Softer sentences, more drugs , more crime. Harder sentencing,tougher policing, zero tolerence, less crime. Would you risk taking drugs to China ?
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Obviously Mr Le Marquand is fortunate enough not to have any sons/daughters hooked on drugs! Get real and put mules in slave labour….prison is too soft!
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“…is this too simple?”
“Get a life Senator, visit the real world….”
“…simple as.”
These comments are very easy to make and I sure that Ian Le Marquand would have become more worldly had he left the island for most of his life. However I suspect that he knows a great deal more about criminology than most posting here.
I would be very surprised if Ian’s motives are anything but selfless and dedicated to turning the Island into a less evil place.
“Think there may be an apology tomorrow…..it just doesn’t make sense!”
What is there not to understand? He has simply stated that “the Royal Court’s sentencing powers, which were set about 15 years ago, were becoming out of date and were no longer acting as a deterrent to those who want to smuggle drugs into the Island.”
Why should this automatically mean that sentences need to be increased?
To my mind it means that the drugs problem needs looking at in other ways.
How about starting by making drug taking extremely unacceptable socially, in the same way as smoking is progressively becoming, instead of turning a blind eye to recreational use by high earners and spenders?
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Profits on drug sales are about 10 times those in the UK, so the only thing that is stopping hoards of dealers from the UK from swamping the island is the deterrent for the mules.
Less = More.
Most other crims re-offend so sentences all round aren’t much of a deterrent either; lets just give out community service and sell off La Moye for flats.
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@11 GMR: “Educating the people at the source of the problem is the way forward, ensuring that these people know that they will not only be deported but there will be a custodial sentance before hand.”
And the warning signs that are impossible to ignore on one’s travels to the Far East aren’t enough?
You will find no sympathy with druggies here.
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With respect, I think Mr Le Marquand must be living on a different planet !! We should be stiffening up our stance on this abhorent enslaving habit…. NOT relaxing the laws … TOTALLY ridiculous !! Look at China, today of all days. This is the sort of enforcement we should be looking at. Drugs are the scurge of the earth, and the harder message we get out there the better. Look at Curtis Warren. These are how these people will turn out if they get an easy time . Get real Mr Le Marquand
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Lots of people seem to be arguing that tough policies like they have in the far east are the answer without acknowledging that a) they don’t seem to be working that well as they have massive drug problems and people still smuggle and b) mules are invariably vulnerable people who don’t earn significant sums from the activity and will still be forced to carry the drugs regardless.
For God’s sake they’ve just executed a mentally unbalanced man in China and lots of you think that equals justice!
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Al (25) – Please do not tell me that drugs or the consequences of drug taking does not kill, because heroin cost my son his life!
I therefore resent your remark, and probably learnt more about drug abuse than you will ever know. Addicts, by the very nature of their addiction may deal small quantities to maintain their habit, but big time dealers are the scum of the earth and live off other’s misery.
Think Curtis Warren who has never used drugs in his life.
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Rozel Aubin # 29. Ian Le Marquand has a degree in law, not criminology. You are correct however in saying he is insular and parochial. Apart from when he studied to be a lawyer, he has rarely been outside the island.
If he reads these responses on the J.E.P. website, maybe he could give his reasons for wanting a reduction in sentencing for drugs couriers / smugglers. What empirical evidence can he produce to show that education and awareness, rather than lengthy prison sentences, will deter the imporation of drugs?
Maybe the issue if more to do with the island’s reduced budget than effective law enforcement.
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Part of me can see what I think he’s saying, but he shows himself up as a bad politician, and jeopardizes his effectiveness by thinking he can try to say it without fully explaining himself.
Maybe the current sentences are too tough for all the good they do, but he should be giving an example of what he would like to see their place.
@Rozel Aubin #29
“…How about starting by making drug taking extremely unacceptable socially, in the same way as smoking is progressively becoming, instead of turning a blind eye to recreational use by high earners and spenders?…”
IS drug taking socially unacceptable though? Smoking is, so the action taken was reasonable; are the actions of high earning recreational drug(cocaine/heroin/e/etc.) any worse than a drunk’s?
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Jersey needs is to become tougher on these people. I know of a smuggler who has had 2 prison sentences and got 2 visits a week from family. He was told he was going to be deported once he had finished his sentence but the Jersey law changed their minds and let him stay. Whilst in prison he still took drugs and now he is out, he is still on them, theiving from people to fund his habit and dealing again. Is this justice? I don’t think so.
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Very sensibe, gald to hear someone is talking sense. The war on drugs is lost (even the yanks are now decrimalising), banging up mules for too long is a waste of time and resources (obviously the cops and prison & lawyers all love it – without the drugs war we wouldn’t need so many of them). There is always someone desperate enough to do it (people smuggle drugs into China, Thailand and get executed). Go after the big guns not the sorry sad sacks that do it out of poverty.
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The harsh sentencing of mules is not a deterrent – reducing sentences will cost less and will continue to reform/deter (the minority) who are influenced by a prison sentence. The money saved can then be spent on catching the people recruiting and ‘managing’ the mules – not to mention funding the longer imprisonment of these individuals.
There you go – not so hard to understand when you spell it out in simple terms.
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I agree, the sentences are way too extreme, Jersey needs to adopt the same laws as the UK and stop living in the past
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Is this guy for real ???April fools joke ???
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Well, let’s start the New Year with our first political resignation from office shall we?
If the earlier comments on this issue don’t prompt that result, the minimum that should happen is that the Chief Minister should remove this man from his post, immediately.
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“..are the actions of high earning recreational drug(cocaine/heroin/e/etc.) any worse than a drunk’s?”
In many ways no,JL.
I thought long and hard about referring to alcohol in my post, so rest assured that I take your point. In principle I have no objection to people choosing their own “soma”. The problems arise when the activities impinge on the well being of others.
For years non smokers suffered discomfort from th inconsiderate actions of smokers and even now are denied the pleasure of some outdoor venues where the problem has now shifted.
Drink and drugs are totally inappropriate to motoring and work environments as well as often leading to violence (due either to physical effects or issues over supply).
Eventually as people become better educated about self abuse and less influenced by clever marketing strategies, all three activies will become socially unacceptable. It probably won’t happen in my lifetime.
I am certainly glad that smoking is on the decline and would gladly see smelly, messy, loutish, beer drinking go the same way. I have been to countries where people only work until they can afford a beer or twelve. Pavements metalled with trodden -in bottle tops and smashed glass at the end of the bottle’s trajectory. Not to mention the urine and puke. Fortunately, in those places they don’t all drive. unfortunately a lot of them have been weaned onto drugs as well.
I can live quite happily without alcohol (I never touch it when away travelling and don’t miss it) and have never had the slightest interest in taking drugs, possibly due to being a non smoker and thus not tempted to try something a bit more interesting!
None of these changes will come about by upping sentences. Only by self education.
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Presumably, what he is saying is that the law punishes the wrong people – i.e. nowadays we only get to see the ‘mules’, so there is no deterrent for the real importers.
I agree with him. Our jail is full of drug users and importers. It costs us a fortune.
Many of them are not from Jersey, bringing the drugs in only to leave the next day. It makes no sense that we pay for these people to be kept here until the ridiculous sentences are up. The quicker we send them back to wherever they come from the better.
The sentencing is also generally out of proportion. You see drugs mules (often people forced to carry) being sentenced to 5 yrs, when scum that assault and steal, thereby having a more direct impact on the average citizen, get community service orders.
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Ok i was going to read all comments until i stumbled across Mike R (number 33)
Mentally unbalanced? He MAY HAVE had Bi Polar disease which ONLY effects your moods – in extreme cases can cause suicidal or euphoric tendancies but you will always know right from wrong. If this person had autism or learning difficulties that meant he was not aware of the situation or the reprucussions then I could understand blaming that as it would be very easy for someone with learning difficulties to be coerced into taking drugs on a plane but blaming his smuggling on bi polar disease is a kick in the face for people like me who have been diagnosed with it and have been struggling to keep emotions in check.
I’ve been on medication for bi polar since I was 15 and incidentally I found cannabis to be one of the best ways to calm down (much better than alcohol!) however there is NO CHANCE IN HELL that I would use this disease as a get out of jail free card and for drugs like heroin and charlie – they should have a death sentance – however drugs that do less damage than alcohol and tobacco (that are LEGALISED) should be legalised too.
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I only read the first few comments but have to say err WHAT !! I agree come down harder on them – I have NO sympathy for people who get mixed up in drugs – THEY RUIN LIVES – if we bought back the death penalty same as China and/or Thailand maybe that would be a good enough deterrent !! I can honestly say even if was a member of my own family – they should know better and get what they deserve.
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All of those advocating continued, or indeed increased, criminalisation are missing the point. Virtually all people who take drugs are making a conscious decision to do so because they enjoy the effects and as long as this is the case, there will continue to be a demand, irrespective of legal sanctions. You don’t stop demand by restricting supply. That simply drives the price up.
If people under the influence are not threatening others or others property, why on earth does it bother you what they get up to. I’ve yet to read the headlines about gangs of stoners or ecstacy takers (who represent the vast majority of drug users in this island) beating the hell out of innocent people or members of their own family each weekend.
Control the sale of the stuff, control the quality of the product, and watch both our budget deficit, and the deaths from accidental overdoses decline. This also has the happy consequence of depriving criminal ventures of most of their funding, which gets recycled into weapons, terrorism and other more serious offences against society as a whole. If the conventional approach to the ‘War on Drugs’ of stiffer and stiffer penalties was in any way effective, the war would already be over. It’s not the supply, it’s the demand, and if it makes people feel good, that’s not going to change. And why should one individual have the ability to dictate what another does to their own body anyway ?
As for those idiots advocating death sentences for offenders, you are simply replacing a small number of drug related deaths with a much larger number of publicly sanctioned executions. Perhaps you would be more happy living in these archaic societies which sanction this approach, accepting of course all the other strictures and lack of human rights which they impose upon their populations.
It’s understandable that people don’t like drugs, or the people who take drugs. The answer to those people is don’t take them, or don’t associate with those that do. Jersey, which has stiffer penalties than the UK for drug offences has, per head of population, a greater incidence of drug taking than almost anywhere in the UK. Open your minds a little to this dichotomy when calling for even stiffer sentences. Our approach doesn’t work, so perhaps it’s time to look at other solutions.
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Jersey Bean @ 37
“Whilst in prison he still took drugs and now he is out, he is still on them, theiving from people to fund his habit and dealing again”
Shop him to the police, you are doing them no favours. He is breaking the law end of. By not shopping him, you are just as bad, causing misery to those he theives from and at worst, killing those he is dealing to.
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What Le Marquand is really saying is, ‘we can’t cope with the amount of drug mules being sentenced in Jersey, so we should make the sentances shorter freeing up more space in La Moye!’
Why not put more funds into holding foreign mules for sentencing and then send them back to where they came from?
Also what about grass roots stuff e.g. campaigning to the hearts and minds of drug users, it seems to be very hush hush, yet La Moye is full of them.
p.s. why does everybody feel the NEED TO CAPITALISE WORDS AND SENTENCES in order to get a point across?
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#45 Lula, I find your analysis of Bipolar Disorder somewhat disturbing, especially as you claim to suffer from it. Both MDF and Sane stepped in to help this man and provide evidence!
I suffer from Bipolar Disorder and thankfully my medication has been extremely successful. I am one of few, many of my friends suffer exteme psychosis because of their Bipolar Disorder and could have found themself in the same position as the man executed in China.
It is worth noting that many people are wrongly diagnosed as Bipolar, having never suffered any kind of psychosis, such people will find it very hard to understand what psychosis is. A diagnosis of BP should really involve psychosis, otherwise it’s a mood disorder.
You can only know right from wrong when you are in full capacity of your mental faculties and actually know what is going on around you, psychosis excludes this knowledge. Sometimes he will have been stable and had he chosen to carry drugs at that time then the punishment must stand, but all evidence (yes, I know, China says there wasn’t any, yet it’s freely available for you and I to see!) says that he was suffering from extreme psychosis, something I can only presume you have never experienced. Maybe you should watch A Beautiful Mind. Factually there are some errors but it goes to show that even with the brightest mind someone can simply not see what is going on around them as their mind translates it into something else entirely.
As for cannabis use, the world’s leading neurologist states that it can bring on schizophrenia in predisposed people, I prefer not to risk it since BP makes you predisposed.
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#33 Mike, you’re right. I agree with this article only on the basis that sentences for mules should not be a high as sentences for the leaders. However, THOSE sentences are not tough enough.
Mules are intentionally chosen from the most vulnerable in society (as seen in the China case) and it is appalling that this happens. No-one should be put in the position of ‘needing’ to be a mule.
There are of course some that do it purely out of greed, who are not vulnerable, but authorities will tell you they are the minority.
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I think there is an argument that if the price of production, shipping distribution etc is in excess of the revenue then there is no market.
Therefore it is safe to say that with no market there will be no producers and instead of harvesting drugs, perhaps they would return to farming or other activities that would make the producer more money.
What you fail to realise is that the relationship between risk and reward is correlated to such an extent that it would be fair to say the harsher the sentence imposed, the greater the financial reward must be to the dealer for avoiding that sentence. Therefore the risk of avoiding such a sentence must be commensurate with that reward. Tougher sentences just means higher prices on the street.
Why is the cost of drugs three times that of the uk on our streets? It is not because we are better at preventing the importation of the drugs. It is purely because the penalty if caught, is that much tougher than the UK.
So I ask you this question.
If the financial reward to smuggle drugs into the island is less than other places with similar difficulties and penalties for smuggling, then why as a dealer or smuggler would you choose to take the same level of risk for much less financial reward. The answer is simple, you wouldn’t.
Therefore in order to effectively tackle a drugs problem you need to lower the price on the street to a level that is far below the perceived level of risk taken to earn that reward.
Does anyone agree?
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Ian Le Marquand’s logic escapes me. If current sentencing is insufficient to deter drug smugglers, how can reducing them prove more effective?
I realise that the Drug Barons should be persued and apprehended more effectively.
This would require much improved international co-operation.
Other issues need to be considered; these are whether interdiction and enforcement in catching the “mules”, and is the prison regime sufficiently harsh?
The best deterrent against crime, is the near certainty of being caught, followed by a robust regime in jail, accompanied by confiscation of all but the minimum property necessary for life, when these felons are convicted.
Like so many others, I suspect the prison regime is too soft, because the authorities are afraid of vexatious case brought against them, by the inmates, for infringement of their imagined human rights.
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Punishment for anyone promoting the use of drugs must be the deterrent. I’m sorry,there is no excuse….. if the man executed in China was in such a bad state mentally, how come his ‘caring ‘ relatives allowed him to go to such a place in the first place? We are all aware of the penalties
in these countries and must abide by their laws. Bi-polar sufferers do know right from wrong so please leave that excuse alone. China’s deterrents DO work. Though there will always be one who tries to get away with things and then use the ‘innocent’ plea.
Incidentally, China also doesn’t seem to have the same problems with Al Quaida as we do in the West!
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Simon (30):
The reason that the prices of drugs are so high in Jersey is that the penalties are so high. Take the huge penalties away and and the prices drop, therefore making it less lucrative for people to import drugs into the island. Making the penalties higher will only make the prices higher and more people will try to import.
lula (45):
From my knowledge of the Akmal Shaikh case and of bipolar disorder, I think you are barking up the wrong tree. One of the symptoms of manic episodes experienced by bipolar sufferers is delusion. I know several bipolar sufferers who have had serious problems with delusions like thinking they can fly and trying to jump off buildings to prove it. Akmal Shaikh’s family say that his condition meant that he was convinced to take the drugs with him to China where they would make him a pop star – if this is true, he would come under your definition of “not aware of the situation or the repercussions”. There was never any implication that he took drugs himself.
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China has been one of the biggest traders in drugs. Think of the Opium Wars.
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All the people going on about how we should adopt the same measures as China need to seriously revise their outlook.
Firstly, it has been statistically shown that the use of the death penalty does not decrease the amount of crime. Neither, incidentally does the length of the sentence. The amount of people getting caught does – if you are certain to get caught committing a crime, you are much less likely to commit it.
Secondly, if you lived in China you would not have the opportunity to influence in any way the way that the country was run – you cannot vote for another party, you would not even be able to comment adversely on news stories (oh the irony).
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56 alexa.
China has been one of the biggest traders in drugs. Think of the Opium Wars.
China sought to restrict British opium traffickers.
Opium, which was not prohibited in the United Kingdom and Ireland, was smuggled by merchants from British India into China in defiance of Chinese prohibition laws.
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In response to PJ @48.
I have shoped him to the police along with other people, but they haven’t done anything. I feel for all the people who become victims of drug users etc.. to feed their habits. It isn’t right. This person SHOULD have been deported especially as it was not his first conviction. Why should Jersey folk pay for him to stay in the Island when that money could be spent elsewhere!!
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#55 The Law, thank you. Bipolar is categorised, many people now get called Bipolar 2 or even Bipolar 3. This is more due to a demand for a label than it is clinical need, with personality disorder being seen by some patients as offensive or “woolly”. It’s starting to catch on in the UK too.
For straight forward Bipolar there has to be an element of losing control of your behaviour that is not simply a mood issue (i.e. too happy or depressed). It is not enough to just feel euphoric, indeed the elevated mood will go beyond the euphoric into severe agitation and inward aggression, and this is when a sufferer is most at risk. If Bipolar is named as a condition then it is Bipolar (1) to which it should refer.
#54 Mummylou, unfortunately you’re wrong there. Knowing right from wrong is fine when you are stable, there can cease to be any right and wrong when suffering psychosis. And I don’t mean knowing right from wrong and choosing to do wrong, I mean simply not knowing. I have a very strong moral compass but I’ve been in psychosis and not had any moral compass whatsoever, thankfully not in China and not affecting others but it put my life in considerable danger.
As for blaming relatives, he was a 50-year old man, how on earth is anyone meant to keep tabs on him? Most parents can’t even keep tabs on their toddlers never mind other adults. If the authorities have failed him, as they clearly did, then who can do anything. Family are not allowed to keep relatives under lock and key, never mind that they have their own lives. He’s mentally ill, NOT stupid, and with BP you can go for years being stable (in which case being nanny’d is extremely upsetting), holding down a demanding job and social life, then some completely unforeseen incident can trigger a severe episode. For me it was suffering 9 close bereavements in a matter of months.
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#54 Should mention that this kind of nonsense is why there are still families that fail to get help for their loved ones, there is simply too much stigma, mostly caused by ignorance, but also by the media failing to realise that people that are mentally ill can act on every other normal human emotion also. The attitudes towards mental illness on here and on other sites at the moment are the very reason people are embarrassed to come forward.
With the usual fear of someone erroneously shouting “racist” at me, mental health charities will be able to tell you that this stigma is still particularly strong among Asian societies whether the sufferers live in Britain or Asia. One of my charities only serves Britain yet has a large membership among Asian countries because information and help is so lacking there relative to the West.
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Further to my comment at #31, below is a link showing the not so subtle warning to drug mules:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CKS_Airport_drugs_sign.JPG
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Ian Le Marquand was out of touch as an advocate as a member of staff at the greffe and as a magistrate. The Curtis Warren trial is another example of the serious problem Jersey faces regarding Drugs in the Island and as a retired police officer all I can say is that Le Marquand remains as much as an embarrasment in politics as he was in Seale Street!
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heres an idea.
dont bother locking up mules. just deport them.
use the funds saved by not incarcerating them for years by investing in more customs patrols/officers and stop drugs coming in completely, if thats what we choose (logically, though, i have a great deal of sympathy with those supporting control/decriminalisation of drugs – ps empirical studies have shown that our ‘acceptable’ taxable drugs, booze & fags, would never get approved if invented today )
this is a small island, with only 1 major port and 1 airport. it thus stands to reason that the only other way of getting contraband ashore is by private boat – and even then, we don’t have all that much navigable coastline to manage.
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Leah Holmes (60):
No problem – I have several bipolar friends and I know they would be much aggrieved to hear the way people are talking about it on here! Anyone who is unclear about the symptoms should watch ‘The Secret Life of the Manic Depressive’ on YouTube – it’s a documentary by Stephen Fry (who is bipolar himself).
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The Law and Leah – ‘ve lived with this condition for 8 years and have to take 2 tablets a day without fail, I also can not share the social drinking that most of my peers enjoy because not only does it interfere with my medication it can also send me flying off a building (not because i want to see if i can fly but because of suicidal tendancies) I’m not “claiming” to be bi polar to get my point across – i’m just mentioning that i am bi polar but i do not blame every bad thing I do on it.
It has not been confirmed what class of Bi Polar that man had (if any) and in my lifetime living with this illness and joining groups of other people with the same condition i have NEVER known of anybody to claim that while they are in a a manic state they are dellusional – the only case i know of is when someone stabbed his friend – however he knew at the time it was wrong and it was the anger and rage that led him to do it… you may not be rational with this condition but I don’t for one second believe that someone could make you believe that carrying that amount of drugs is a good idea!?
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I am always surprised when people support the death penalty for drug offenses. We all know drink driving kills, but no one is suggesting we excute drink drivers.
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Jersey Bean # 59. Did the cops give you a reason for not acting on your information?
There may be a disciplinary offence of ‘neglect of duty’, but there may also have been insufficient evidence to pursue the case.
The cops should have told you why they acted the way they did (pro or contra), so you’d be encouraged to report things to them in the future.
If you think the cops have neglected their duty, complain to the Professional Standards Department. If they don’t do anything, go to the Home Affairs Minister and complain to him.(Don’t be cynical and say you won’t bother because nothing will be done…..if you do, then you can only blame yourself).
Be like a broken record and keep nagging).
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Matt (66) that’s because drunk-drivers can be stopped from the likelihood of re-offending by simply removing their licence for a considerable period of time
Drug-dealers, however, cannot so easily be stopped – only by lengthy custodial sentences costing the taxpayer £50k per year, which often does little to actually stop them.
The chap recently executed in China was said to be carrying enough heroin to cause the deaths of 26,800 people and would have certainly caused untold misery. Had he not been exectuted, perhaps next time he would have succeeded with his importation attempt. I for one am glad that China took this path and would hope that other countries will follow their lead.
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Lula, my apologies, not disputing your diagnosis, just that your comments on it indicate BP2 or3, cyclothymia, dysthymia… more than ‘straightforward’ Bipolar. In saying that, diagnoses should be reviewed regularly as a person ages and suffers different stresses. It’s not an exact science hence the DSM-IV categorisation.
I’ve come into close contact with a number of Bipolar people and they all have experience of delusions and psychotic breaks. They all know right from wrong, but when delusional you’re not actually seeing what is around you so right and wrong don’t come into it.
The analogy I use is it’s like your eyes are open and you’re looking at something but your brain short circuits and instead of sending the message from your retina it sends a message from the part of your brain that holds the memory of a film you watched, or a place you’ve seen, even images from dreams or nightmares. It’s hard not to believe what is right in front of your eyes. As far as you are concerned what you are seeing is what is real!
I once had (as far as I was aware) a scorpion crawling towards me. Thankfully the object was just a moving toy but it could have been a small child! Was I wrong to batter the scorpion?
Thankfully no serious delusions/psychosis while on meds and no side effects horrible enough that I would be tempted to stop taking meds.
If you don’t suffer delusions or psychosis think yourself lucky, but please don’t tell the world that someone with Bipolar always knows right from wrong without adding that sometimes what a BP sufferer sees is not actually real. Their actions could well be right according to what they are seeing but not according to what the rest of the world is seeing.
Death is, to me, far too final a solution for a man who was clearly delusional and didn’t even get the chance to be medicated and try leading a ‘normal’ life.
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Maybe we shouldn’t condemn China’s laws, as I am told it is much safer on the streets of Beijing than on the streets of St. Helier.
The reason is the Chinese rigorously enforce their laws, whereas Mr. Le Marquand presides over an island, where violent criminals carry out assaults almost with impunity and where now he wants to reduce the deterrent against drug smuggling. How many lives are ruined by just one drug smuggler?
Just because someone is deeply in debt and down on their luck, doesn’t make it okay to commit crime. They know the risk and if they are caught they must face the consequences of their criminal action.
Democracy involves consultation, and Ian Le Marquand needs to consult with the public rather than act as the autocrat he now seems to be.
It’s been said before, but maybe reducing the sentencing is more to do with economics than justice or common sense.
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There is absolutely no doubt that locking up mules is a gross waste of money. Let’s just legalise drugs, grow them here in disused glass houses and at a stroke:
1) Put organised criminals out of business
2) Reduce funding for terrorism
3) Reduce the number of people whose lives are ruined not by drugs but by having a drugs related conviction
4) Reduce the number of people whose lives are ruined by contact with the criminal underworld
5) Reduce the number of people who are killed because of overdoses
6) Turn drug use into something that raises revenue for the Island that can be spent on decent rehab, rather than a huge cost as a result of imprisoning uneducated, desperate, often blackmailed and terrified “mules”.
As someone who has lost friends to drugs and who now has kids of my own, I do wonder why so many people are intent on fighting a “war on drugs”, the casualties of which are ordinary young Islanders, and the beneficiaries organised criminals. Instead of calling drug dealers “scum of the earth” and then designing systems that maximise their profit, why not put them out of business?
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Mad Foetus # 72 The side-effects of drug abuse can include insomnia, psychosis, intense paranoia, irrational thoughts and beliefs, delusions, and mental confusion.
Doesn’t the island have enough problems without you advocating legalisation?
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Mad Foetus, As usual you make some thought provoking points.
However, I’m not sure whether it is that easy to put organised criminals out of business.
In all probabilty they will eschew the opportunity to get a worthwhile job in law, finance, tax avoidance or waterfront development.
Instead they are likely to take up another criminal activity, possibly one which impinges closely on you or me!
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Mad Foetus (72). If drugs couriers are locked up and their drugs are seized won’t that achieve the aim of putting drugs barons out of business? Your logic is difficult to comprehend.Legalisation is definately not the answer.
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Blue Knight. I am astonished you would question condemnation of China’s Laws – a country after all which ordered the execution of a mentall ill man, who regularly imprisons innocent people for questioning their government and thinks nothing of cooperating with similarly corrupt regimes when it is in its financial interests to do so.
The level of censorship and restrictions on individual liberties are incalculable. You speak of your desire to see Ian Le Marquand to act less autocratically and yet must know that were we living in a Chinese province, the government’s power would be absolute, no matter how inept, unlike our own system which is open to scrutiny and can replace inefficient officials.
The Chinese may well ‘rigorously enforce their laws’ but the kind of obedience this inspires is the kind which discourages people from tesitfying against heroin dealers for fear of reprisals against their family.
Frankly I would rather have a tolerable degree of crime in society than see us emulate a dictatorship in any way.
V.
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The lack of compassion and the extreme views of some contributors to this thread astound me. It appears that some would welcome weekly public executions in the Royal Square for drug mules. What method do they suggest as the most entertaining for the crowds. Machine Gun? Beheading? Or why not follow Sharia law and have stonings so that we can all take part?
Can I suggest that rather than condemn Senator Le Marquand people read what he is actually saying. Very often those who are forced to smuggle drugs into Jersey are victims themselves with families being threatened with violence or death. Giving these people long sentances is pointless all round. It is the “Mr Bigs” at the top of the chain who are making millions out of people’s misery that need to be targeted, not those that they are forcing to do their dirty work for them.
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V for Vendetta # 76. Akmal Shaikh should have respected Chinese laws, but did not. Would you travel to China smuggling drugs in the knowledge of the death penalty?
Can you produce evidence of his mental illness? How are you so sure you have all the information about his case?
We claim to be more civilised in the West, yet Brits who live in Beijing have stated that it is far safer to live in China, than in Britain.
I do feel sorry about the impact of Akmal Shaikh’s execution on his family. However I also feel sorry for the thousands of people whose lives may have been ruined by drug addiction. Many addicts had the potential to experience a premature death because of his actions.
Reading the submissions on law and disorder on the J.E.P. discussion boards, it is clear that there is a majority who are fed up with laissez faire attitude now displayed by the so called criminal justice system in Jersey.
Whilst I wouldn’t personally support the death penalty, I do feel we should have more effective deterrent to drug smuggling that Ian Le Marquand is suggesting.
How can you say what is a tolerable degree of crime in society? The problem is, the more liberal we become in sentencing, the less of a
deterrence there will be against criminal activity.
It seems to many people that what we laughingly the Criminal Justice System,is more concerned with the criminals than the victims of crime.
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Mad Foetus (72) – Whilst I abhor drug use of any sort, and loathe and detest dealers, mules or whatever as all this cost my son his life, there is actually an element of sense in what you suggest and actually something I would advocate if managed and overseen very strictly.
Trials were done in Brighton some years ago whereby addicts were able to obtain heroin legally from GP’s. This was pure heroin, therefore eliminating the danger of it being ‘cut’ with other harmful substances, and the purity was guaranteed. The GP’s were then able to slowly reduce the amount the addicts were taking, which meant that some were able to undertake meaningful work. More importantly, the police quoted a noticeable drop in drugs related crime, an obvious benefit to the whole community.
This of course would not be an easy ‘cop-out’ for addicts to feed their habit, but the plusses would be enormous, and the costs saved could be directed towards the excellent re-hab centre here (Silkworth Lodge).
It would take brave government to consider this, but I have always felt it could be a very beneficial option properly monitored.
Drugs are a scourge in todays society, which unless you have had personal dealings with it you cannot start to comprehend the utterly miserable and chaotic lifestyle addicts lead. There but for the grace of God goes any one of your children believe you me.
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64….so true.
This tiny island must be extremely easy to protect if the authorities REALLY wanted to prevent drug smuggling. One airport, one main port and very few easily accessible bays to allow private boats. Besides what about modern technology to detect unauthorised vessels….even radar???
Drugs are one problem but what about others such as people trafficking or illegal immigration? The states don’t even know who is in the island let alone stop more from coming!
France is only a stones throw away and look how easy it was for that chap to canoe to France last year to escape….no passports needed !
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Blue Knight,
It is not for me to provide evidence that this man has bipolar disorder but the refusal of the Chinese government to have a medical team verify or dismiss the claim displays a lack of regard for procedure or even basic justice.
You may say that this man should have known better – this is obviously a principle that underpins sentencing but in the UK we usually prepare a pre-sentencing report for crimes of this nature, detailing the defendant’s life to date and any factors which may have contributed towards any criminal behaviour, including mental illness which is a mitigating factor. Can you provide evidence that the Chinese have a similar system or do you see this as irrelevant to your seemingly Machiavellian desire for a ‘safer’ society at any cost?
There is little to be admired about the Chinese justice system. I understand that people may be angered by the idea of drug mules receiving lesser sentences however such people are merely pawns of far more high profile, more dangerous criminals who are at the root of the problem, and against whom virtually all of the anger being vented here should be directed.
I do not agree with the idea that the justice system should concentrate on the victims of crime over perpetrators for the simple reason that all those accused of a crime are innocent until proven guilty.
Justice as they say, is blind. As such, criminals and victims of crime are only established after the fact, in a fair trial. I will believe that this is what this gentlemen has received when the Chinese provide guarantees that he enjoyed the presumption of innocence, was tried by a jury of his peers and underwent a full medical examination prior to sentencing.
While we can sadly agree that there is little to be done for people convicted in foreign countries, the idea that we should return to a time when our laws were so draconian that the innocent were punished along with the guilty is abhorrent.
Of course anyone who relishes the idea of living under a dictatorship in the name of safety, is welcome to go there. As for me, I’ll stick with good old fashioned liberal democracy with a healthy dose of justice thrown in, thank you very much.
V.
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#78 Evidence was (and still is if it hasn’t been removed) on YouTube, as well as being on Reprieve’s website.
I understand that people are assuming that it’s “easy to pull the mentally ill” card, but it’s actually very difficult to fool those who have the same condition themselves, and getting a diagnosis of Bipolar can be very hard even when you are Bipolar (for instance, if you are succeeding in academia).
It’s also worth noting that MDF (Manic Depression Fellowship) and Sane do not step in on a whim, MDF are funded by members (like myself) and have to be very careful with their money. They will only step in when they truly believe a misjustice is being carried out.
I have seen electronic copies of the evidence that Reprieve submitted to the Chinese authorities, and I have no doubts.
I’ll stress two things again:
1. It can be easy to fool a sane person into believing you are Bipolar, but exceptionally difficult to fool someone who is also Bipolar. Same can be said for conditions like Epilepsy.
2. It often takes well over a decade to get diagnosed and diagnosis often only comes when your behaviour gets extreme, by which point your life can be irretrievably ruined. It’s amazing what family and friends just put down to personality or eccentricity when all the time you are in need of help.
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BS, back on my home island two suited men once appeared at the local hotel badgering the staff incessantly about the protocol surrounding their helipad (they put one in at their own expense to assist emergency services i.e. fellow islanders). They were asking about what documentation they had in place to prevent illegal immigration etc etc.
They had been at the hotel for just 10 minutes when they got a phone call asking if two ‘strange’ men who had got off the ferry were staying at the hotel!
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Ivor:
“If drugs couriers are locked up and their drugs are seized won’t that achieve the aim of putting drugs barons out of business?”
If you try something over and over again and it doesn’t work, isn’t the rational response to try something different?
Most countries in the world have tried to stop drug use through severe penalties. It doesn’t work. The only way you stop drug use is through legalisation, proper regulation, education and rehabilitation.
It’s not about seeing who can shout “I hate drugs” the loudest: it is about minimising the harm to young people.
Those that say they are “tough on drugs” are actually supporting the system that the big drug dealers rely on. Mules are expendable. It makes no difference to drug barons if a poor, drug addicted single mother is imprisoned for 5 years or 10 years for a run she was forced to do to clear a £250 drug debt.
JG – sorry to hear of your loss. As someone with young kids that is exactly the risk that I want to reduce.
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Mules, dealers, growers, all they are doing is supplying a demand.
Lets make the TAKING of illegal drugs less appetising, its these users who are paying the high cost of drugs and making the other activities attractive.
Remove the safety net of our hospitals and medical services to those who choose to take illegal drugs.
I have said it before and say it again, let these users, the selfish central requirement for a drug trade, die in the street as a graphic advertisement of what eventually happens to the financers of drug trafficking, after all it will be their choice, no one elses.
Stopping the users, means eventually no market = no dealers = no mules = and finally no users.
I know this may be unpalatable for some and maybe we could use H de la G as a place to hide them from the squeamish till they complete their chosen demise, not so effective as a deterrent but better than our present laws which are not working and its the small time user/dealer who is at the school gates trying to make enough to pay for his chosen habit.
AT THE EXPENCE OF OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS.
I am sure all of you who say drugs do no harm will agree to this as a trial because you must think no one will die.
The courts come down higher on the receivers of stolen property than the actual thieves for the same reason, they are encouraging the act.Whats the diference with drugs ?
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Having a bipolar disorder and being insane according to the law are not necessarily the same thing. Different jurisdictions have differing interpretations and tests for insanity; e.g. the UK and Jersey tests differ. The UK might imprison a person that we might give treatment to and vice versa.
A large number of people with mental health conditions are regarded as being sane at the time of the commission of the offence under criminal law.
In the UK and in Jersey the test is carried out by specialist doctors but ultimately decided upon by the court. This seems to be the right approach. In China it appears that no court decided on his sanity or fitness to plead so in that sense justice looks like it has been denied.
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Any ‘importation’ of illegal drugs postdates an exportation from somewhere else.
It is just as illegal to export controlled drugs as it is to import them. The exportation must naturally precede the importation and so is, chronologically, the original offence.
We should simply send them back to their point of departure to be dealt with there for the offence of exporting controlled drugs.
As a reciprocal arrangement we would take back those people arrested in other countries for importing drugs which have been exported from Jersey….
We wouldn’t need such a big prison then would we!
Simples.
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A lot of people are saying that “as the current harsh penalties are not working, we should make them even harsher”. Have you thought that harsh penalties aren’t a deterent? If people are desperate they will chase the quick buck.
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I have a radical idea
The next time a ‘bad’ batch of heroin comes along, either laced with anthrax again or dangerously pure, how about the authorities DON’T bother warning the druggies to be extra careful?
As soon as we have a couple of addicts expiring, I bet quite a few potential users will be less inclined to take up the habit. Maybe some of the people already hooked will think about taking up something less harmful – perhaps stamp collecting, ornithology, or tennis. Ideal!
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Reality check Senator. Stiffen the penalties, the crime rate will reduce as these individuals are off the streets. Consider reintroducing the deportation laws and forget about this ‘reasonable ties to the Island’ excuse which allows none Jersey born criminals to stay. If they are born here they are our problem, if they are not they should be the problem of the terretory they originated in. We should welcome those from the globe who wish to live in our island and enrich us with their experiences and culture. Those who spoil it for everone should be removed.
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Ever had a couple of dabs of nice clean MDMA? Ever sat down and smoked a big fat joint of silver haze? I know it may seem controversial but have you ever thought that people might do it because (so i hear) it actually feels pretty damn good?
The ‘war on drugs’ is a war on human nature. By prohibiting ‘drugs’ you just criminalize huge swathes of society who are just enjoying themselves. Time for a new approach because the current one is an abject failure..
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J-Cat
Ever seen someone burn up on “nice clean MDMA” ?
Ever seen a life disappear down the drain in a “silver haze”?
Hitler enjoyed the death camps.
Some twisted individuals enjoy rape.
I agree legalisation “could” work, but never forget the down side of addiction that even legalised drugs cause. “Just” because something is “enjoyable” does not mean its good for the community.
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Interesting idea Tobias, why not just cut to the chase, round up all the druggies and work them to death in a camp somewhere rather than allow them to be poisoned slowly? Dear Lord, I’m more worried about people like you than I am the drug barons! V.
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“it actually feels pretty damn good?”
There are people for whom killing, beating others up or tortuting animals feels good! There are those that get their kicks from preying on children! Feeling good and right are not always the same thing.
It easy to say that drug use doesn’t affect anyone other than the user but it does, it costs the rest of us since it costs our medical service. And yes, so does alcohol and smoking.
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I thought I was fairly right wing but some of the comments on here put Hitler to shame.
My favourites today:
“As soon as we have a couple of addicts expiring, I bet quite a few potential users will be less inclined to take up the habit”
Yes, that will work, because the world is full of people considering whether to become heroin addicts.
“Hitler enjoyed the death camps.
Some twisted individuals enjoy rape.
To equate personal drug use with death camps or rape is, with respect, stark raving bonkers.
Addiction is an illness. When it is treated as an illness, the rates of addiction drop. When it is treated as a crime, they rise. That’s a fact. Going on about Hitler is just hysterical nonsense.
“Stiffen the penalties, the crime rate will reduce as these individuals are off the streets.”
Err, the individuals here are mules. People who are addicted and have run up a debt they can’t otherwise repay. They are given a choice – carry a package to Jersey or be beaten up or in extreme circumstances killed. We can imprison them for life and it won’t affect the crime rate in Jersey (though it may reduce marginally the number of burglaries in Liverpool and Glasgow).
And the facts that
1) drugs in Jersey can be sold for many times their cost in Amsterdam and
2) that mules are utterly expendable
means that the penalties imposed on mules will make no difference to the level of drug use in the Island.
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93 – It’s thanks to bleeding heart liberals such as yourself that Jersey has allowed itself to become riddled with workshy alcoholics and druggies who think the world owes them a living and don’t accept responsibility for their own actions.
I think you should be more worried about the drug barons btw.
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V for Vendetta,
You argue a very good point.
However, I think you are naive in your view that we live in a free society. We live in a capitalist society were money is power. a small percentage of extremely wealthy Americans run America, when was the last working class Prime Minister of the UK?
The reality is we also live in a dictatorship, a dictorship of money, which makes drugs illegal because if they suddenly became legal the third world countries would profit from drugs and threaten the western World. We do not want them to do this, because our quality of life would go down, and the wealth would become less.
It is hypocritical of you to slag of China, yet our own country invades Iraq and Afganistan and kills thousands of innocent people on the pretence of WMDs.
RB
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“There are people for whom killing, beating others up or tortuting animals feels good! There are those that get their kicks from preying on children!”
Err, those are crimes with victims. It’s hard to see the moral equivalence with someone smoking a joint or taking ecstasy. Which, let’s face it, the UK government’s own advisor said is less risky than horse riding.
“It easy to say that drug use doesn’t affect anyone other than the user but it does, it costs the rest of us since it costs our medical service.”
So are we now proposing to ban horse riding? What an intolerant world we live in.
Legalise it, control it, tax it, make it pay for the mess it creates. Simple.
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Tobias # 96. Everyone has a point of view on this subject, some agree with Ian Le Marquand and others – like myself – don’t. I don’t think V for Vendetta is a bleeding heart liberal, he just looks at things differently. It’s called freedom of speech and whilst I don’t always agree with him, I’d defend his right to express his ideas.
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I’ve had a think Toby and… no, I’m still much more worried about people like yourself who advocate poisoning people en masse than I am about the odd drug mule. Call me old fashioned but I tend to go with the whole Judeo-Christian ‘You shall do no murder’ ethic.
Frankly, I think you lack the courage of your convictions; by your own logic why don’t we just round up everyone suffering with drug addiction or alcohol problems and shepherd them into gas chambers, cunningly disguised as communal bath houses? Perhaps a spot of Zyklon-B could cure all our social ills with a home grown Final Solution?
Maybe while we construct them you would think of a few other types of undesirables to throw in such as us “liberals”, homosexuals, travelling people and those unable to prove the purity of their blood to the tenth generation?
I can picture you grinding your teeth in anticipation at the thought; perhaps its time for you to grow that chaplin-esque moustache you’ve always wanted?
I suppose the rest of us better start practising our goose step…
V.
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I have no issue with those in society that take the relatively-harmless soft drugs, and I’m an advocate of both ‘legal highs’ and decriminalisation of cannabis – you’ll never be mugged by a pot junkie desperate to get money for his next fix, nor will you be attacked or have your property vandalised by a group of teenagers high on Spice.
Yet I stand wholeheartedly by my earlier comment – that I wouldn’t bother warning junkies that the latest batch of heroin is contaminated. Heroin addicts are nothing but filth in my opinion, it’s highly unlikely that they will ever come to anything in their miserable lives and I frankly feel that if a few of them died then it would at least put their mates off the habit.
Everybody in this island knows the risks involved with heroin, it’s drummed into us from an early age at school, and nobody has ever been forced to purchase and use the stuff. I have very little sympathy for anyone that chooses to start taking it and they have absolutely nobody but themselves to blame when they later become addicted and start stealing to fund their newfound craze.
“V for Vendetta” – just for the record, I also have no issue with homosexuals or travellers (random?!) and the rest of your post – comparing me with the Nazis and waffling on about Hitleresque moustaches etc etc – was frankly childish and unbecoming of someone whom I previously held in high esteem. Although I rarely agree with you I’d normally respect your views, however feel free to go and practice your goose-step if that’s what floats your boat. Your Venemous and Volatile Villification of my Views on Vagrants and Vagabonds was Vividly and Vociferously Vile!
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#98 Mad Foetus, I’m pretty much neither here nor there on drug legalisation. Some aspects would make it a good idea, others make it a bad idea. Does it have victims though? YES!
There’s no disputing that.
Even seemingly sensible, ‘young professional’ users with everything going for them can end up on the street due to an addiction, leading to theft, mugging etc. It happens. To think that any single person is immune, or is ‘better’ than other ‘junkies’ is naive to the extreme.
Once you start down the ‘it feels good, it does no harm to others’ line it can be a slippery slope. Your morals don’t jump from good to bad, they slide very, very gradually.
I will be protesting seriously if I end up having to pay more social security because other people can’t enjoy their life without drugs. How pathetic is that? If drugs are legalised then anyone ending up in hospital because of drugs must be made to pay for the treatment they receive. The health service is struggling enough with alcohol and smoking without adding other drugs to the equation.
And what has horseriding got to do with it. Ride a horse safely and sensibly and you shouldn’t end up with an injury, take drugs and you simply cannot know.
Drugs can have little effect one time and a big effect another time.
The other issue with drugs is, unlike alcohol, many drugs are bidirectional. They have completely opposite effects on different people. Alcohol affects everyone the same essentially, it is your personality that decides how the drink manifests in you, that’s not the case with all drugs. And I suspect that is a large part of why they haven’t been legalised to date, society actually cannot know what the outcome will be, how many people will react seriously negatively and how many will take it in their stride.
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Drug taking is currently a crime, and it DOES have victims! Hence the link.
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Mad Foetus, are you honestly saying you entirely trust a ‘Government advisor’, cause such a title doesn’t fill me with a lot of faith personally.
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I have several friends who have smoked cannabis on a regular basis since their late teens / early twenties, some of them work in the finance industry!
A party of them went to Amsterdam a couple of years ago and some of their bosses did not twig the fact that the attraction was a week doing the coffee shops and trying as many different types of weed as possible.
It is possible to become dependent on cannabis but it is a lot less addictive than tobacco or alcohol and I have never seen someone start a fight after smoking a few joints.
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