Ageing population: What to do?
Friday 15th January 2010, 3:00PM GMT.
Everyone from school-age children to the retired is being invited to contribute
A MAJOR new consultation exercise which forces Islanders to face up to the uncomfortable realities of an ageing population is launched today.
Everyone from school-age children to the retired is being invited to help decide how Jersey is going to pay for a spiralling number of pensioners who need long-term nursing care.
It is estimated, for example, that by 2026 the number of people aged 80 and above will have almost doubled from 3,567 to 7,128. At the same time, the pool of people of working age is due to shrink, leaving fewer earners to pay for the growing bill.
As a result of the increase in the elderly population, the cost of providing long-term nursing care in people’s houses and in residential homes is expected to soar from £55 million today to £110 million in 2026.
A consultation document, in the form of a government green paper, has been published by the Social Security department so ordinary Islanders can inform policymakers about the best and most palatable way forward. A series of public meetings is also planned to test public opinion.
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Give them a hug “where applicable” and let them know there worth.
Old age is inevitable if were “lucky” and its a positive thing to give them a bit of respect and not cast them aside as useless in a typical “British” manner.
I have to admire a lot of the europeans who acknowledge the elderly and not cast them aside as so many do in this miserable society.
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1) Remove the social security payment limit on employee contributions.
2) Create a defined compulsory scheme for all jersey residents to contribute say 5% of salary to help save and pay for such care in later years.
we cannot reasonably assume the states should pay for care and despite protestations to the contrary we should take responsibility now for our own care in later life.
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1. Increase personal responsibility to plan for retirement and old age.
2. Increase options for greater personal responsibility and choice in payment of long-term care.
3. Support health promotions to reduce disability rates in our population.
4. Create age-sensitive social infrastructures that support and help people as they age.
5. Build or adapt physical infrastructures to achieve well thought out land use, better transportation and supportive design of public spaces.
7. Promote creative use of the aging population both in the labour force and in non-paid, contributory roles.
8. Promote flexibility in the workplace in order to accommodate the changing definition of work and retirement within an extended lifespan.
9. Invest in high quality education and training for our young people to ensure a high quality workforce in the future.
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This is a very serious subject for our island. All residents who want to see population levels drop, need to consider the consequences. I fully agree with Jersey having housing qualifications for buying property, but we have to consider relaxing the laws with regards to renting. If we want to encourage workers to live in Jersey and ultimately subsidise the pensions, we are going to destroy ourselves by forcing them to rent overpriced, damp bedsits for 11 years. This is not what many locals want to hear, but we have to face up to reality
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Not another one.! What happened to the ISAS project that investigated this and also New Directions.Instead of consult,consult,lets see the highly paid Chief Officers of Social Security and H&SS take some action to address the issues.
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start by supporting locally educated people (particularly in the health services) by offering them jobs and providing opportunity. the states pay/paid so much money through uni grants and them complain that they are not getting value for money when students dont return.
many talented university graduates have no opportunity to progress thier careers in the island and look for work else where, often not returning for the same reasons.
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My parents are gioing through this at the moment. All they have worked for throughout their lives, ie pensions, savings is all taken away and put towards care home fees. The remaing spouse living at home is then given an allowance( income support) to live off. So basically their life and freedom is over. Fees are from £600 a week plus cost of Doctors call out and charges for things used in your room, eg. paper towels. Nursing homes can be up to £1600 a week! Which is where my relative is going to soon because the care home can no longer cope with the needs!
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There is going to have to be one/two possibly even three generations of old people for whom life is going to be financially harder than normal and their families will have to help them out more. One of these generations will be me when I’m old and I am willing to accept that in the knowledge that it will lessen the problem for future generations.
For the short-sighted having children is the answer, unfortunately continuing population growth coupled with continuing medical achievements means that encouraging more people to have children will simply mean that future generations have an even worse ageing population crisis.
Far better that some of us suffer now than that even more people suffer even more in the future.
It’s not going to be a popular response but tough times call for tough measures.
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Just mentioning the possibility of Means Testing is making the situation worse!
What incentive is there for people to save for pensions etc if at the end of the day it’s taken due to means testing?
The States should issue a statement declaring that ‘Under no circumstances will Means Testing ever be used’!!
It’s the only way to encourage saving for you old age!
Everyone has choices in live, a balance between:-
Do I go on holiday, do I by a car, do I have another beer
or Do I save towards a pension and my old age?
Means Testing:- Takes away from people who save for old age,
To pay for those who spent it all as they got it.
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Perhaps we could organise a cull…?
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I would give the option to let them choose to live or take a pill as many old people do not want to continue living when they have no quality of life left.
I worked with them long enough and many of them were distraught and wished they could go as they had nothing left to live for and felt they were a burden and many were just sitting there staring into space getting force-fed.
Different of course if they are well and still can cope mentally with the prospect of losing independence,but not if they don,t want to continue living in pain and trauma and do not wan,t to go on.
we should all be given the option of what is best for us,and not forced to go on when all hope is gone.
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#9 Those who spent it as they got it (who can blame them, any reason for saving was removed years ago) will sell their houses to pay for their care, so that’s fair enough. Those who didn’t own a house, well there is a problem there that we’ll take the hit for.
The biggest problem will be that we won’t just be paying for our own care, we’ll be paying for the care of those who never paid a penny in SS during their life because they knew how to work the system!
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Before Xmas we were told by a government
minister that our glorious states were allowing
low paid immigrants to bring in their elderly
and TAXPAYERS are paying for them??
But Jersey people have to sell their houses and use their savings – this defies economics and
is ddiscrimination against locals.
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The States were informed of this very situation twenty-five years ago and decided they might need to do something – home to roost comes to mind!!!
However, if we think we have a problem now wait another thirty odd years this will pale into insignificance, take an ageing population who have not contributed to the system because of university/unemployment for possibly five plus years there will be no funds available because you can only bleed the population so much!!!
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Bella has a point. Why do laws make it so difficuld to end your owne life. I don’t want to be a burden, I want the option of a pill or someone to shoot me, when I get to the point where I can no longer wash, dress or feed myself.
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#7 Devastated
I’m sorry for you and your family, but does’nt it make your blood boil when you look at the £ numbers and wonder what care your folk get for the money.
The homes certainly do, it’s a multi million pound business over here. Yes they have overheads, but the money you mention is almost indecent per week.
Hope you come through ok .
The States should be able to do this themselves , but I’m afraid we’d need ‘Experts’ brought in and a raft of other civil servants to cock it up.
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This has to be carefully considered. I am more than willing to contribute more to the public purse if when I get older, I to receive good quality care for free. Those who will burden the cost of this care are those working and it will be those who have savings and their own property when they are older. What a kick in the teeth that will be when the states say that its means tested. You can’t have it both ways States members. If you want us to pay for it during our working lives you have to provide our care for free as well.
There are no fare systems in this Island. I know some need the welfare system but other simply take the P**S
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£600 per person per week is £4,800 per month for two in residential home fees…am I right?
Yet, the minimum wage is only about £300 per week. So what’s wrong with offering room&board plus minimum wage to a live-in carer and allowing elderly couples to stay in their own homes until almost the end of their days. Let’s not forget, not all the elderly are in need of 24/7 attention and some of them even have children/grandchildren who would be more likely to visit them at home.
This would also ease the accomodation problem, create jobs and help cut States’ expenditure, as it’s almost a £900-per-week-per-couple saving.
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One little thing that iritates me is that the vast majority of the elderly people in our community gave their all during the 2nd world war, they struggled in the years that followed. Where were they supposed to find the money to put into pension schemes.
If you work on a farm, picking the spuds or clean some rich women (with long painted nails to blooming lazy to do it herself)’s home, you’re earning less than minimum wage. (Remembering minimum wage came into effect quite recently). The elderly members of our community probably struggled to put food on the table for their families let alone think about their old age.
Its all good saying, COMMON SENSE::::: save for your future. That’s fine when you’re in your 20′s and 30′s as you’re still young enough to do that, but when you’re approaching retirement age or already retired how can you do that.
Help our aged community. They worked hard for us now we should work hard for them.
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I must agree with Leah #8.
“For the short-sighted having children is the answer, unfortunately …encouraging more people to have children will simply mean that future generations have an even worse ageing population crisis.”
We have to grasp the nettle and realise that we are dealing with a “Bulge” and rather like a war which was no fault of our own it will just mean that a period of austerity will have to be endured by all concerned. Otherwise we will merely compound the problem.
If quantites of younger people are needed as a labour force, instead of raising more of our own, how about giving better opportunities to able bodied and less fortunate people from the third world whose own parents have already died from AIDS, malnutritition etc.
Ooh, blimey, don’t know about that. Bound to be a bad idea.
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“But Jersey people have to sell their houses and use their savings”
Actually many people build up reserves of savings and property “to see them through their old age”.
There’s nothing new about this concept. Most of them started out with little and won’t need any thing when they’ve gone.
What has changed is that nowadays they want to have their cake and leave their money to their offspring as well. Quite why the offspring deserve such luck is for another debate. They are even luckier in Jersey as they won’t pay inheritance tax, just a bit of stamp duty.
What we need is a system like a board game. At the end the money goes back in the box ready to start again. The money belongs to the government anyway. Those who have it in their pocket merely have fleeting stewardship of it.
As Marlowe wrote “There are many ways to enrich, all of them foul”.
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Well ending the charade of the government ponzi scheme for retirement pensions might help just as it is in the UK and the US. Its actually a state sponsored fraud. X % of your social security contributions should go into your own retirement account. This would go a long way to redressing the issue of younger generations paying for other peoples retirement. It may mean an increase in soc security rates but at least people would have more confidence in their state security. That would address the pension system but with regards medical and social care for the elderly,I dont have any easy answers.
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why not offer pensioners a cash incentive to leave the Island. If say 20k per head was offered, many may return to the place of their birth (where living costs are likely to be much lower)
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Does anyone remember “Soylent Green”, we could reduce food costs and the aging population at the same time.
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I say this with a heavy heart, but I agree with Carly #4 – at some stage we will need to consider removing housing qualifications on lettings. Whilst it’s great that we are living longer, it puts the infrastructure of a small island like ours under huge pressure
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Paul Blampied & Leah – totally agree why are we penalised for buying a house and not wasting our money. My mum is facing residential care and losing the house she worked all her life to pay for.
How many people take from a system they have never paid into their entire lives? if means testing is to be introduced it should be for these people during their younger years and retirement. How many are on long term disability benefit when capable of working. I’m not suggesting that the benefit should not be there for those in geniune need but there are some playing the system.
People fall into the benefit trap and convince themselves that they cannot work, I know of blind/deaf/disabled people who enjoy taxing stimulating jobs.They would hate to be told they couldn’t work, then you have those with a minor disability who never work again.
This is clontroversial but I beleive that there should be a two tier system with subsistance living for those who have wasted away their money and not provided for retirement and those that have provided being allowed to keep what thay have.
This is the opposite of what we currently have.
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I have the solution which would also solve our failing tourism industry.
Lets arrange for rich people to come here to hunt them, only those who are poor and draining the system. They could have hunting season on the poor, say November to April when it’s cold and they are moaning about being cold. Running away from the hunters would help them keep warm, we could have awards for the most imaginitive kill. They could stuff and keep their kills and mount them above the fireplace. It would fix tourism and solve this problem in one swoop.
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A gun and lots of bullets????
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“Realist
Posted January 16, 2010 at 10:08 am I have the solution which would also solve our failing tourism industry.
Lets arrange for rich people to come here to hunt them, only those who are poor and draining the system. They could have hunting season on the poor, say November to April when it’s cold and they are moaning about being cold. Running away from the hunters would help them keep warm, we could have awards for the most imaginitive kill. They could stuff and keep their kills and mount them above the fireplace. It would fix tourism and solve this problem in one swoop”.
There is always someone who takes things to extremes – you cannot mount elderly people above the fireplace, it would be distasteful and would probably clash with the wallpaper.
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if someone has savings in their old age including their house then this should be used for their care. If they leave nothing to their children tough!
the alternative is that my taxes pay for someone’s old age care in order that their children can inherit their estate!
How does that work?
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dave 23.
Re your comment: “why not offer pensioners a cash incentive to leave the Island. If say 20k per head was offered, many may return to the place of their birth (where living costs are likely to be much lower)”
Wow! That’s a brilliant idea…a bit cruel…but then again, some people are!
Any suggestions as to where to send Jersey-born pensioners?
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should my old age become so poor, i will be going down the road that bella @ 11 is talking about.
” a short stay in switzerland”
documentry, drama. with julie walters.
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Tell you what – we’ll just up sticks and find somewhere that doesnt cost the earth to live in and then we’ll all be happy. I’m Jersey and I’m sick and tierd of this government and its inability to control costs or look after local people who have worked here all thier lives. I dont want to retire or grow old here so we’re going just as soon as we can.
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I wouldn’t worry too much about the old – they have had their time – they should have saved a bit more for their old age rather than rely on handouts.
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Comment 26 Realist ” They could stuff and keep their kills and mount them above the fireplace.”
I’d be careful of that, my grandfather tried to mount my nan next to the freezer – he was thrown out and barred from Tesco.
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#34
“Any suggestions as to where to send Jersey-born pensioners?”
well, there’s always Jersey, but they might not recognise the place – it’s changed so much.
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Dave 23- where do all the Jersey born pensioners get sent to?
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Yea They could start their own little Switzerland.
They will have plenty of tourists with a one-way ticket.
#Dave 23.
If that was the case most of us would be gone,and the next to step in our shoes….i,ll leave that for you to work out.
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#25 Young un, sounds like a bit of a plan.
Still, maybe we are consigning the elderly to the scrap heap instead of accepting that they have something to offer. In China eldely people get to pass their real-life stories on in schools, I’d imagine hearing history from someone who actually lived it is about as interesting as it could get.
As for elderly people going home to their place of birth, I thought this was the plan with some. I know of at least 3 families that have used the low-tax system here to build massive houses back home. However,so far one family has been sucked in by greed and their house back home lies empty, I wonder if the other two will follow suit. And if they have contributed SS here then presumably they haven’t contributed back home and won’t be eligible for care so they would actually have to move back while still young enough to contribute for a while?
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#6 Bob, I do wonder why the States don’t actually track who is studying what at university. I presume some people go from here to study medicine. Why not give them an incentive to come back as soon as they have finished their rotations instead of requiring another J-Cat. It also means that if their parents live in Jersey that they are here to help with their parents’ care.
There must be people going to study Maths, English, Sciences that may like teaching, why not give them incentives to come back.
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No30.
My idea is not cruel, it would be purely volantary.
It makes sound sense, for anyone on a fixed income and with no family ties to Jersey, to live elsewhere, as almost everywhere has a lower cost of living and many places have better climates.
If a couple returned to the UK for example, they could buy/rent for less, most of their ongoing expenses would be less, and the Uk would provide for their costly care in old age, saving Jersey a fortune.
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Rozel Aubin 35.
Re: “well, there’s always Jersey, but they might not recognise the place – it’s changed so much!”
According to some of the more ‘ungenerous’ posts, they wouldn’t recognise it anyway…due to ‘Dementia’ and/or similar ailments which accompany old age.
Strange as it may seem, my mother-in-law is 85 and ‘ALL there’! She lives with her daughter’s family and is a valid member of the household…but that’s probably because she gets plenty of love and attention.
The problem with many families in Jersey is that they have a selfish approach to the placement of ‘grandma and grandpa’ and, they see putting them ‘out-of-sight in a Home’ as the only solution…and it isn’t!
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Well, Jersey is need to diversify it’s economy.
Why not set up a euthanasia industry and offer it to tourists who would die to get here.
Seems to have ben quite successful in Switzerland.
On a more serious note – I will never ever end up in an old people’s home. They are such depressing places. I intend to go out in a quick flash after spending my last hard earned penny.
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#41 Totally agree, although it’s not just Jersey who want their elderly out of sight out of mind. My Gran died at 88 with all her faculties entirely intact, she had a ridiculous memory but also was entirely up to date with current bands and current affairds.
There is however the issue that, as with young people, some elderly people are unpleasant and have made their bed. It’s easy to feel sorry for people once they are old but some have spent so much of their life being nasty that you can’t blame their family for having cut them out their lives.
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Tax the rich, protect the vulnerable
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My gran lived to the ripe old age of 85 and like yours Leah retained all her faculties and largely was able to live independently with a little help from Family Nursing, a kindly neighbour and myself.
It was a blessing for us that she didn’t have to move into a Nursing Home although we were very impressed by the staff and facilities of the one we saw. She was very much a creature of habit and didn’t like change of any kind.
The small pension she had was eroded even further by the States after they got rid of HIE and even further again when they saw she received a tiny amount from Ireland. She had to pay for all her own nursing care and for the equipment they provided.
I understand that in Scotland this kind of community care is covered by the local council at no cost to the individual.
When at times she had to undergo operations and couldn’t look after herself we had to breathe a sigh of relief each time the Parish agreed to foot the bill of sending her to a home while she convalesced.
It should go without saying that such a system cannot operate on the basis of a wink and a nod and that provision needs to be in place for people who can’t afford to pay £200 a day for nursing care.
That said we seem to have no trouble advocating longer prison sentences for criminals, perhaps we should let a bit of common sense prevail and use our limited resources to care for the elderly instead?
NJ.
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I assume God’s Mentor(comment 33)is about twelve years old and cannot envisage ever being above the ripe old age of twenty!There seems to be such a cold lack of respect towards the elderly from some people which I find quite amazing when you only have to look around St Helier on a Saturday afternoon and see all the chain smoking/drug taking chavs who are living at the expense of the taxpayer.At least the current pensioners still come from a generation who actually believed in paying their way and produced children because they wanted a family not just because they got free accomodation out of it!
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Leah Holmes 43.
I get your point but, fortunately for us, there are more ‘nice-deserving’ people about than ‘nasty-undeserving’ ones. So even if some discarded old-folk are getting/will get their ‘comeuppance’, it doesn’t explain why a great number of ‘offsprings’ decide to pack their parents off.
Maybe if the States offered ‘a spoonful of sugar’ to families, in the way of some financial benefit (let’s say about £300 pw) for taking care of an elderly parent at home, families would be more willing to look after them.
This method would save the States (taxpayer) a considerable amount of money, especially if one compares this small sum with the ‘real’ cost of keeping an elderly person in a residential home…and there’s also the added-benefit of a ‘loving home’ environment…which is priceless and should not be ignored.
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What a surprise.
All the highly paid politicians NEVER listen to what the people who elected them want on so many issues such as over development and population but now they ask US to come up with a plan to deal with the unpalatable fruits of their mistakes.
Why do we employ these people at all, much less permit their rediculously large salaries as when push comes to shove, they haven’t a clue.
Isn’t it obvious?
Deal with the population issues and encourage all people to take far more financial responsability for themselves, their families and their futures. Above all, make a contribution to old age care compulsory.
Now, can I have a rebate please ~ my part of that salary the States members are not earning whilst asking the rest of US mere mortals to solve the problems THEY created?
And they wonder why so many do not bother to vote?
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#Born Warrior.
They use to have a scheme called an
attendance allowance for people who were looked after by neighbours or friends.
This was not widely known by the general public.
The person who was looked after got paid a sum of money on top of their pension and it was up to that person to pay the carer.
This was not extended to family as they were expected to do it anyway.
I don,t know if this scheme is still being used since income support came in.
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How about the States not driving out younger well trained local people who would contribute, by making stupid decisions?
We won’t be paying for the oldies as we are off for good.
Bye bye, enjoy paying you guys.
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Dave 40.
OK, you don’t like the adjective ‘cruel’, so how does ‘mean’ sound?
To be honest, I thought you were joking, but obviously not!
Therefore, if you seriously wish to clinch the deal, you’ll definitely have to amend the amount of cash involved in your ‘packing-off’ arrangement.
Considering that each elderly person costs the States (Jersey taxpayer) over £4,000 per month in residential-home fees, your offer of £20,000 (to take their problems back to the UK or homeland) is rather ‘low’ to say the least. I’d even go as far as saying “it’s a pittance” (not even two-seasons care-fees…a poor payoff for people who have worked all their healthy seasons in Jersey).
And, there’s another thing…I’m not sure that the British taxpayer would take kindly to the idea!
P.S. You forget to mention where you intend sending the Jersey-born pensioners?
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bella 50.
Well, it is certainly a good scheme, but it should be extended to the families.
In some cases, a small allowance would allow the family to pay a day-carer while they are out at work, thus allowing ‘Grandma’ to end her days surrounded by her family…like they do in Europe.
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We the people have paid zillions for Govt .soc sec.tax and some have even managed to buy their own home….it is high time the people of this island revolted against this Government as they have caused the problem and now want to wriggle out of looking after those they have milked for so long and even get them to borrow money for care or sell their houses to pay extortionate sums just to eke out their last years…People are not a disposable saleable commodity to be done to as it pleases the short sighted people who are temporarily fit, working and in mainstream life …it all rolls around quicker than you may think,one day you’re young and amongst it all next ,poorly or on the shelf… shortsighted idiot politicians abetted by civil servants who feel taken care of put forward these dehumanising money driven ideas,when we have been paying them to take care of such issues,what a de incentivising way to go about things…if this is the case, why work at all just sit back be a waster and ponce off the state….forget we are human and get beguiled by figures on paper at your peril.
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For starters get all those who can work into work…..even if it is community service for those on benefits who cannot find a proper job!
Reduce benefits so there is more incentive to find a real job and reduce the desire to become a parent for the sole reason of living off the state.
Encourage those in employment to contribute more to a personal pension plan.
Offer more incentives for young local talent to stay by encouraging them to start their own businesses or at least ensure there are jobs available – work permits for non-residents would be a good start.
Many solutions offered by all but once again the States don’t listen and just pay (with our tax money) for more consultants or surveys to tell them what we already know!!
Maybe relieving some of the members of their jobs will reduce the wage bill and we could add the money saved to the pension pot!
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Born Warrior 52
How can you justify the cost. £4000 a month to look after one elderly person???
That is significantly more than I earn (in a well paid finance job) and I still have to pay rent etc to survive. Even taking into consideration the need for nursing and ROOM rental (not a whole house) this seems way too much…..there wouldn’t be one nurse assigned to each individual so where would the money be going?
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Bella and Born Warrior, I wondered about Attendance Allowance, it is extended to family members in the UK. We give people money to help them look after the children they choose to have, why would we not help them look after the parents they didn’t choose to have (hopefully you get my point?)
My mum got a part allowance for looking after her mum as it saved the council a lot of time and money, although my mum would have done it for free. Others have had the full payment for taking in a parent that requires a lot of care. It also applies to the carers of children needing a lot of care. We pay people for situations that are within their control why don’t we pay for situations outside their control?
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#48 Possibly just because, much as it’s horrible, we are living in an era of very selfish people. I’m not sure that can be rectified now.
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#53 BW
What got me was hardly any of the old and other house bound never knew about this,i put them on to it or got in touch with the social workers(it was their job to make known this allowance they were entitled to).
It was about£90 a week 10 years ago.
#54 Agree
The ideal citizens will work all their lives pay income tax,social security,then retire and snuff it soon after and save gov a fortune,which has happened to a lot of people I know.
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#54 Glad you’re allowed to say it, apparently us incomers are meant to pay tax but not have any say in where it is spent.
Maybe it’s a common trait of politicians (here and worldwide) to only care if it is one of their own in a particularly difficult situation?
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I do so agree with #5 why are we having yet another consultation. There was an excellent response to the ISAS questionaire printed in the JEP a few years ago. I doubt Soc Sec will get more or different responses. There was a majority acceptance of the suggestion of an insurance scheme, as a universal tax paid by everyone it would be very fair. I realise things take time to implement but we’ve wasted at least three years since HSS got all excited about their New Directions…not a lot really new there and again nothing happening but a lot of talk.
I don’t agree with many of the comments but an insurance scheme would keep us all happy. I don’t understand why anyone should stop being responsible for paying for their own upkeep when they get old, nor why anyone has the right to have a large sum of money to leave to their offspring. I have no chiildren, and see no reason why my fellow islanders should subsidise me so I can leave my fortune to the cats home. If you happen to have money to leave fine, but if you have to use it to live …well that’s presumably why you ensured you had an income in the first place. The biggest issue for me though is …get on with it…stop consulting and give us some action.
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The obsession of making people live longer has now come home to haunt us i am afraid.
My grandfather retired at 65 and by 71 was dead, and that my dear freinds is how the pensions of yesteryear worked, sad but true.
I personally have no issue with having to sell your home to pay for finalyears. It is not as if you can take your wealth with you !!
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“so where would the money be going?” Asks BS Deluxe.
The Boat Show is on at the moment, the price of yachts should be a clue!
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#55 Good ideas. And since other countries are having the same problems we could be listening to the advice they’re being given also.
#61 “I realise things take time to implement” given the time taken over the boxing day decision, we could be in for the long haul on something this important!
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No 52.
Many people nearing retirement already consider retiring elswhere, so a small cash incentive may sway the decision for some. Not all retirees end up requiring expensive care. I think the incentive would appeal mainly to non Jersey born people, but if Jersey born people wanted to take advantage of it they could. It is not a case of shipping people off somwhere, it would be their choice were they went, many alredy retire to EU countries,(the stamp on the passport only applies to automatic employmnt rights)Thailand, Australia etc.
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To Warren J (comment62)I don’t understand “the obsession of making people live longer” remark.I would think it impossible to make someone live longer as surely their life ends when it is their time to end be it through,old age,illness or perhaps cut short by a tragic accident.It is a bit of a lottery really unless you choose to end your own life in which case you will know exactly when you are going.My maternal grandparents died in their sixties but then they were both heavy smokers and took little interest in their health.But today I know ninety year olds who have good health,energy and great humour who still live independently in their own homes with no assistance whatsoever.They haven’t been “kept alive” but have been lucky in keeping fit and having no illness (and probably never a day off on the sick when they were working either!)
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#Leah
This is jersey where they do things “the jersey way”
As far as i know families were not given any financial assistance to look after their aging parents.
Every thing has changed since they brought in this income support which in my view should be abolished.
Too many are refusing to fill in a 40 odd page form to get a couple of bob extra where they use to get from the parish.
They want to know every single thing you have,not just money jewellery television etc which the older generation think they will make them sell before they pay them that little extra to make their lives a little easier.
Not sure but i think that attendance allowance is now incorporated with the income support.
#Warren so true,they have got an unnatural obsession of trying to extent life.
If you do this do that you could live another week month year whatever.
What for? Quality is better than quantity in my view,seen to much suffering has put me off wanting to live too long.
live every day as if it is your last as one day it will be.
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BS Deluxe 56.
Fees range from about £600 to well over double that amount, so £1000pw is about average (plus any extra expenses, of course).
As to where the money goes, your guess is as good as mine. Running costs are high, but not that high, so I suppose there’s a lot of money to me made in ‘caring’ for the aged…mmmm….now there’s a thought!
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The answer to the aging population question is to build more houses. The owners of these houses can rest assured that when they are old, the States will be happy to take them of your hands and sell them for you to pay for your care as an elderly person.
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#67 The forms do put people off in the UK, although I guess they’re maybe not as bad as here. You normally need to ask a Carers’ Association to fill them out as they know the best things to write!
#62 I agree, it’s a taboo but we really are pushing the envelope with extending life, and Bella’s right the authorities are choosing quantity over quality.
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#66 – I will clarify for you.
Medical intervention has resulted in people living longer. Without getting emmotional, without medical intervention, both my parents and my inlaws, who are all pensioners would be dead by now.
Old age provision is comething we cannot maintainn, You cannot expect to go to college, start work at 25, retire at 60 and live to 90 – The figures simply don’t add up.
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“Old age provision is comething we cannot maintainn, You cannot expect to go to college, start work at 25, retire at 60 and live to 90 – The figures simply don’t add up.”
Warren, I went to college and started work – let’s rephrase that, became employed – at 22 and retired at 51 just in case I didn’t make 65 let alone 90!
If one cut one’s coat according to ones cloth and, importantly, maintained a full contribution history then one could expect full retirement benefits and a certain level of health care.
The figures could add up if it wasn’t for the requirement of the incredibly greedy to keep at the top of the greed league and if we lived in
a more equable (i.e. free from extremes of earnings) society.
Not that long ago we were told that we could all look forward to increased leisure etc. due to new technolgy and automation. Unfortunately others have diverted this source of wealth elsewhere.
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71. From what you are saying, perhaps ‘Looking after your elderly relatives’ should be included in college curriculum.
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I just wish that people would develop a bit more respect for retirees rather than thinking of them as a burden and a nuisance. It appears that for many the pound in the pocket when one is younger and fitter has greater value than putting money into a system that will help when one becomes older! Most of us will be old and I am sure that when we are we will want to live as long, interesting and comfortable life. Why has a long retirement suddenly become tantamount to a crime? I think that there was a time when society rather expected to be able to work less and play more in a space age future and thought that technology and new developments in medicine would be an aid to this! Come on folks, be a bit more positive. Paying a bit more when younger is really to give you your own long term happiness. Many retirees continue to work, help out with charities on an unpaid basis and lots in this island are unpaid child minders! Come on Jersey, be more like other nations and learn to respect retirees. You would think from reading some of these comments you are talking about another race not your future selves!
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To Warren J (comment 71)I understand that huge advances have been made in medicine and thankfully many diseases can now be cured or made easier to live with.But at what age would you suggest we stop treating people or bothering with them?I imagine you are the type of person who would rather not be here anymore if you had a disease which made your life miserable/there was no hope of any improvement and I agree with you on that.I have told my family many times that I do not enjoy illness whatsoever and would rather be put out of my misery if I ever lose my marbles or get so that I cannot take care of myself(hopefully a million years away yet!)But we don’t have that choice unfortunately do we?
So as it stands I will happily collect my Jersey pension when it becomes due knowing that I earned it and that Jersey had a good deal of cash out of me over the years I lived there but fortunately I will not be relying on it!
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74. Many contribed hansomely into the system via tax etc. and were then asked to sell their homes to help provide for their care. Owning a home placed them very far down in the pecking order when it came to nursing home places.
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#76 What has happened in Jersey to those that haven’t owned their homes? Is this a ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ type scenario?
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77. If you own your own home you are considered rich enough to pay for private nursing home care. If you stay within the rented accommodation situation you will be allowed into the free States run nursing homes.
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Compulsary euthanasia at 75 would solve the problem. clearly as you get to retirement you should spend evert penny you have and then get the states to pay!!!
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@ truthseeker #54
“…it is high time the people of this island revolted against this Government…”
Okay truthseeker, then what? do you have any better ideas?
You keep ranting against something you don’t like, but what would you have fill the void?
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Put your house in your childrens name.
IF YOU TRUST THEM ?
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As usual very interesting comments, some sadly predictable. #56 BS Deluxe, you want to know how residential care costs the States so much? I guess that’s a question for the people who negotiated the contracts with the(mainly)privately run care homes; I guess ‘profits’ has something to do with it? If your partner or parent needs 24 hour nursing care, with the possible exception of cancer, you will have little choice but to go down the nursing home route, there is only private agency nursing care available and this is impossible for most families to fund.
#65 et al, I work for a national cancer charity and know that many people who retire abroad (at whatever age) find that when serious illness strikes they have to return home, either to get health care or to be with family.
#66 Julie and #74 Anne – well said.
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82
Then the states need to review these costs.
It’s ludicrous each patient is being charged the equivalent of a full (very generous) wage and rent for a 2 bedroomed house each month….and they only get a room in a residential home with care shared amongst several other elderly people. If true then this is nothing short of scandalous!
It would be cheaper to rent the afore-mentioned 2 bed house (with the benefit of more privacy, space and belonging) and employ an individual (to attend personally and wholeheartedly to one person) wouldn’t it??
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One further point, if an elderly person runs out of funds to pay for his/her Private Nursing Home care, the owner of the Private Nursing Home instructs a lawyer to remove the elderly person from the premises forthwith and no compassion.
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I agree with everyone who says that the old who have worked hard contributed to the pot should be looked after in later life, without being stripped of their home.
The problem is Government spending, and also what we expect from later life when kids have all left the house is paid for and the car bought with a sum in the bank.
Regarding the civil service how right is it to pay a person two thirds of his (say) hundred thousand pound salery 75 grand indexed linked.
It must happen that we get Government spending under control. Yes the public sector contribute to the their pension but we pay dfar to much, and the outcome is ther is not enough left to look after the old and needy without taking their houses, criminal
Davey.
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BS Deluxe 83.
I said exactly the same thing (post 18.), but it’s too simple for the complicated money-wasters to understand.
So until things change for the better, old folks must accept the “Work-all-your-life-to-buy-yourself-a-home-and-then-sell-it-to-buy-yourself-some-care” scenario…even the thought makes me shiver.
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Remove the ceiling on Social Security contributions – this should have been done years ago.
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Allowing the population to rise is a red herring. There’s no end to that approach.
My idea is something lihe this….
We need to force as many employers and employees as we can to assume joint responsibility for making sure pensions are in place for after retirement. Those who have these means available at retirment will take a cash sum to reflect there lifelong social security contributions – a sum that will cost the States about half the average cost of paying a full weekly pension to death. The cash sum will be welcomed by most if they’ve already got a decent income coming in from their own arrangements. The State then only has to pay the current weekly pension for those who were unable to provide for themselves and these people will lose out the option of getting the lump sum at retirement.
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@ Nellie Macon #87
Removing the ceiling from SS contributions would not, IMHO, be fair.
Why should one person pay greatly in excess in SS compared to another, yet recieve no more than that person who’s paid only a fraction(and in many cases recieve far less?)
There must be an incentive to earn money and provide for yourself, both for the high earners who might resent having their rewards eroded; and for those on Income Support, who have no reason to try harder if they can earn above min. wage for not working.
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No.81 It is possible to put your house in the name of your children but who is to say what might happen when they meet their future wife/husband? These new inlaws could easily influence your children to sell up and leave you with nothing.
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The ones that do not own their houses still pay for their keep by way of their pension.They were given back £18 a few years ago enough for just the basics
The state run homes should manage on that amount.
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#87 I do disagree with you on this one Nellie. Earning higher wages doesn’t cause you to use more healthcare services, education etc so I think having a ceiling on it is fair.
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