‘Doormen need stab vests’
Tuesday 9th February 2010, 3:00PM GMT.
Roy Travert: Doormen should have the same protection as police
DOORMEN in Jersey are asking for stab vests and metal detectors for their own protection.
In the second part of the JEP’s week-long investigation into street violence in Jersey, one doorman has written on behalf of his colleagues to States Members asking them to give door staff the same level of personal protection as the States and honorary police.
Roy Travert, who has worked part-time in the security industry for three years, has written to Home Affairs Minister Ian Le Marquand and Economic Development Minister Alan Maclean to ask for new laws to be introduced that protect security staff against violent and verbal assaults, as well as stiffer sentencing for those who assault members of staff.
Mr Travert, who stood for election to the States in 2005, has also requested that door supervisors be equipped with stab vests and metal detectors for a trial period of three months.
‘This is standard procedure in many nightclubs in the UK and abroad,’ he said.
See Tuesday’s JEP for full story.
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Well I did used to feel safe if I was in St Helier! Mind you where I live in UK has a ‘reputation’. I sympathise with the door staff. I get similar in my job, abuse, threats and have been physically attacked. However, though difficult to remember at times, most people are decent. Those of us of a certain age will remember ‘The Beast of Jersey’. Not a high point of Island History. Unfortunatley societys do have a certain level of violence, even reading the reports in the EP I can assure you most towns in England have similar or worse problems.
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what a sad state jersey has become where bouncers claim to need stab vests.
what a wonderful image to those tourists who come over for a weekend break.
ps how many bouncers have been stabbed on duty in jersey over the last 10 years?
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I stand to be corrected, but I was under the impression that it was already illegal to commit violent assaults, whether the victim was a member of the public, doorman, police officer or otherwise. I’m not aware of any law that precludes someone from going out and buying a stab vest either, so can someone explain to me why the States need to get involved?
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Mike 3.
Re your comment: “I’m not aware of any law that precludes someone from going out and buying a stab vest either, so can someone explain to me why the States need to get involved?”
Because Mr Travert, who stood for election to the States in 2005, is probably thinking about standing for election again…and it’s free publicity!
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Have more doormen been stabbed (whilst on the door) than any other portion of the public?
Any assault is illegal.
Why does Mr Travert believe that bouncers require protection from “verbal assault”? Where will the line be drawn? Is Mr Travert suggesting that any attempt to disagree with a bouncer should become a criminal offence?
I feel that part of the problem may be that bouncers have difficulty articulating their reasoned arguments why your shoes do not comply with the dress code, or that pursuant to the unofficial code, you are too fat.
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“…new laws to be introduced that protect security staff against violent and verbal assaults…”
There are already laws in place to cover this regardless of a persons employment.
“…requested that door supervisors be equipped with stab vests and metal detectors…”
If he wishes to suggest that a law be put in place to compel employers to provided these specfic items (over & above normal H&S laws currently in place) then fine, but there is absolutely no way the tax-payer should be funding these items.
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I would just like to point out that in your article about doormen asking for stab vests, you say that Roy Travert wrote in on behalf of the doorstaff of Jersey. He does not speak for me. I have worked on the doors for nearly 30 years now, and though the job has changed I believe we are far from needing stab vests for any of the doorstaff, I personally can only recollect one doorman who was stabbed, and where he was stabbed, the vest would not have helped him, please do not scare monger the general public.
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Give them the equipment it might save some lives.
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Well some of the doormen I know deserve all the trobble they might get. Some are cocky and have such a power rush.
Also all the doormen have radios, if trobble broke out, help would be there in about 30 seconds.
I do agree with #2 ‘how many bouncers have been stabbed on duty in jersey over the last 10 years?’ This would be an interesting figure to know.
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3 & 4 – my thoughts too….if you don’t feel safe then buy a stab vest!!!
As with the story yesterday where are the stats to give us a view of how bad it is!!! How many doormen have been stabbed or threatened with knife….and I mean really threatened not some bloke half cut shouting his mouth off.
**New laws that protect staff from VERBAL abuse….don’t need them I believe that comes under public disorder!!
You’ve certainly got my vote, you’d fit right in with the other goverment officials in Jersey with their wealth of knowledge and life skills.
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Bouncers already have too much power. Yes, they are there to protect members of the public, but has anyone else noticed there attitude and agressive behaviour which often starts the problems in clubs etc. They should be polite and not aggresive and lead by example. If memebrs of the states were to see the way the bounceres act sometimes i am sure they would agree.
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From what I have seen its the public who need to be protected from the doormen!! They are far too heavy handed when it comes to throwing someone out and I have seen them punching someone outside the premises!!
They do nothing to help out if a fight breakout on their doorstep as its not on their property!!
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Talk about scaremongering. What next armed guards. And I only wanted to pop in for a pint.
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Totally agree Ab and Ben
Of course I’m not speaking of all bouncers, but the way I have seen some bouncers act, misconstruing or misunderstanding of their ‘protective’ role often leads to an escalation in violence of what normally starts out as a small incident.
There really aren’t many stranger attacks in Jersey compared to other places in the UK. I don’t believe that stab vests will make anyone feel ‘safer’… the way you conduct yourself amongst others will surely determine whether you feel safe or not.
Ridiculous Scaremongering.
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I moved to Jersey from London and in my opinion Jersey is a great deal different. Doorman do not need stab-vests as I am not aware of any doorman being stabbed in the 5yrs I have been in Jersey.
As for metal detectors, can you imagine popping to the pub and being examined with a detector, having to empty your pockets, remove your belt and put your things in a plastic box to be checked. This is a stupid and unreasonable request. It’s Jersey, not Brixton, get a grip please !
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I agree that some doormen cause problems by being too brave when there colleagues are backing them up; and some abuse ther authority.
and yes, if they feel they need stab vests they should either buy them or ask their employer to buy them. But the argument that we should wait for somebody to be stabbed before providing protective equipment is pathetic…. and sounds like my old boss….who flew a desk a great personal risk!
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The common law of self defence is exactly the same for the police as it is for doormen – they no not need additional legislation.
The lisencing law gives door men the authority to eject people from the premises using reasonable force.. they do not have to give a reason . the police do not have that power.. they can only stand-by to prevent or respond to a breach of the peace.
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Behaviour breeds behaviour. Take note doormen. My mate was stopped going to a club for wearing jeans, those who got in were shocked to find near naked girls dancing on podiums, has Jersey really sunk to a new low.
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I stand by my comments on yesterdays headlines. Are we really going to be subjected to this sort of scare mongering reporting every day this week.
I thought the media were supposed to report on the news not make the news. Talk about moral panics and making “folk devils”. Please JEP get a grip. How about some responsible reporting.
I am not saying St helier is perfect. But the crass use of those victims of crimes for the pupose of your articles is so unbelievably unethical I am seriously considering not buying your paper any more.
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I have worked on ‘the door’ in St.Helier, not once was I threatened with a knife, I never heard of anyone else being threatened either. I have never heard of Mr Travert either come to think about it. I reckon the fact that he stood for election could have something to do with it, another wanna be trying to get noticed and make a name for himself.Stab vests/ cycle helmets, the list is endless.
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im a nightclub doorman in birmingham uk
and jersey is a BREEZE …i holiday in jersey once a year. and feel very safe night and day
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I take it the amount who voted ‘no’ on the poll has not ventured to parts of England or Northern Ireland.
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As a former doorman who worked in St Helier for 10 years, I have to say that Mr Travert is most likely intending to use this publicity for trying to get elected as a politiican.
There are some idiotic comments above about doormen having bad attitudes etc, but there are good and bad people in all aspects of employment. I worked with some very good doormen, and some very bad ones! I was fortunate enough to have a say on who was employed and on several occasions, relieved staff of their duties for having a bad attitude.
I have to say (as someone with Polish friends) that the Polish doormen seem to cause the majoirty of trouble that I now see in pubs and clubs. They don’t speak to people before putting their hands on them, which was a big no no when I was trained. Michael Jones who commented above, is a well repected and times serverd doorman. He is a gentleman, and talks the majority of situations around amicably. He is well versed in martial arts but chooses to ue his brain before his body, as I always tried to do too. Not all doormen are dic#heads, but admittedly some are.
No need for stab vests, that is ridiculous!
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When taxi draivers had trouble they had to pay for their own marshals. Why should this be any different? Licencees should pay.
As for not being able to disagree with doorman without breaking the law, this is a ridiculous and dangerous suggestion
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Stab vests are available for anyone to buy on eBay at a cost of £75.
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The problem as I see it is that the doormen have allowed their image to be tarnished. Most are good people but a minority are not.
Doormen have acquired a reputation for acting unreasonably. I remember people being refused entry for no reason or, in one case, because his shoelaces were the wrong colour! Anyone concerned at the conduct of doorstaff may complain to the licencing assembly when the pub’s licence comes up for renewal.
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You can’t come in here mate because those comments are casual
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If Jersey was part of the European Union, instead of being the stagnant backwater of an extinct empire, under the Personal Protection Equipment Regulations 1992 the provision of anti-stab vests would be mandatory.
But it isn’t here because Jersey is not.
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Anybody remember the Buzz incident in 1994 when a doorman caused serious head injuries to a customer?
The doorman was jailed for 30 months and controls were then brought in to licence doormen.
Let us look back to that incident when we consider giving these people more power.
Doormen should be trained in conflict management and professional courtesy. This could easily be added to the present compulsory training. Personal comments regarding customers or the shoes which they wear should not be allowed and should be a reportable matter.
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Can we be protected against doormen who don’t let you in because you look funny or because your hair is the wrong colour? Can we also stop doormen leering all over female customers please?
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he’s stirring up a hornet’s nest here. Looking at the way some of these doormen behave, one wonders if it is the public which requires protection. I don’t think that it is a problem and if it is the doormen can always look for alternative employment
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Pubs and clubs should remember that the doormen are the first point of contact that they have with their customers.
A lot of doormen do not seem to realise that their wages come out of the money that passes over the bar so clients have to treated with respect or we will not be coming back.
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What a joke!!!
When was the last time a doorman was stabbed? What about the publuic been protected from the doorman!!!
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Give them cycle helmets…
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I dont think Mr Travert has recieved the response he was hoping for!
All the above are very valid points, and I can particularly agree that some incidents I have seen have in fact been caused by the bad attitude of door staff.
There are a number of good people protecting the doors, however there are some terrible ones.
Stab vests? Oh come on! The only outcome I can see is door staff attitudes becoming even worse, because they will feel indestructable!
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29. It’s great to hear all the reply’s it seems to me most are coming from those ejected for some reason, doorstaff are trained in conflict management and have been since 1996, there are good and bad out there more good I like to think, R Travert is speaking for him self.
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This is a reply to # 29 Sensible, Doormen do have to take several courses which include conflict managment, first aid, drug awareness, licensing law and fire regulations. There is no way you can become a doorman without these courses and a background check done on you, unlike becoming a member of the states. The manager is the one who sets the dress restrictions, not the doorman, if you don’t like that, then complain to the manager the next time you see him, you never know, he may change his mind and allow you in, I firmly believe it is the person that can cause the trouble, not what that person is wearing, after all, someone wearing a suit is just as likely to cause bother as someone wearing jeans and trainers, but as I said earlier, the managers have final say. After saying all that, yes, there are bad doormen, just as there are bad politicians or bad plumbers or policemen, that is life.
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Rather than stab vests, why don’t they try smiling? And maybe wearing something a bit brighter. Just because you are a bouncer doesn’t mean you have to look like an extra from Reservoir Dogs.
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Quote “The lisencing law gives door men the authority to eject people from the premises using reasonable force.. they do not have to give a reason” NOT TRUE, once a person is in a pub/club, the doormen have to have a reason to eject that person, of course if the person is already banned from the establishment, then all the doorman has to do is escort them off the premises, as to the police, if you have been asked to leave and you refuse, then the doorman can call the police, they will enter the establishment and that person will be escorted off the premises by them, of course they run the chance of being arrested for refusing to leave licensed premises then, which is not what we really want is it?
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you just need zero tolerance,very harsh magistrates,more police on the streets and tear up the human rights billas it only protects the criminals.any non local that commits any crime must be deported by law.
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Roy Travert is wrong in his statement, all my enquiries has come up with quite the opposite, Door staff do not want stab vests nor metal detectors.
Jersey Door Registration
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Quote “Rather than stab vests, why don’t they try smiling? And maybe wearing something a bit brighter. Just because you are a bouncer doesn’t mean you have to look like an extra from Reservoir Dogs” I understand that you may believe what you wrote, but doormen are able to smile, most of us do, can you stand around in the cold and smile at each person you see? remember that could be in the hundreds each night.
I know from personal experience that some customers just totally ignore you when you open the door as they enter of leave, no “Thank you” or “Good night” from most of the people, so please before you start saying doormen should smile, try it yourself, they will respond in kind I can tell you, or the lads that work with me do anyway. As to the way we dress, some establishments do have their doormen wear something other than black and white, but myself, I prefer the traditional uniform.
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I fail to see the logic in most of the above posts.
Why should we have to wait for a doorman to be stabbed to decide it is time to hand out stab vests.
The management should supply stab vests to its employees just like they hand out other protective clothing and uniforms.
Giving metal detectors and stab vests to door staff is a good idea, if they choose to use them or not is up to them.
Please lets be a bit pro active here and can all the people who think Jersey is a safe place spend a night in Liberation square before they speak up, Jersey is becoming less and less safe it may not be as violent as other British towns but lets not wait till then.
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Feel that doorman should be protected, they never know what they are going to come across, yes give them stab vest. To many idiots out on the street at weekends , put more Police Officers out on the beat and not patrolling in cars.
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Not all door staff are power mad or rude, I know a lot of door staff who are friendly and smile (myself included) of course it isn’t always easy to have a smile on your face when you’re being insulted.
I think this has got totally out of hand, we’re being personally attacked when that’s not the issue. The issue is whether we as door staff feel the need to wear stab vests, personally I don’t think things have gotten bad enough to warrant that.
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Michael Jones @41
You are a laugh a minute aren’t you!
A cheap suit and a polyester tie aren’t a “traditional uniform”. Never have been.
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Most of the comments on here are from people who have obviously never had a job which involves dealing with people who are “not very nice”. I can’t actually think of a simpler way of wording that so it will have to do. If my job entailed having to eject drunk violent people from pubs and then having all of their drunk girlfriends screaming at you to “leave him alone, he hasn’t done anything wrong” as you drag his blood covered shirt out of the pub (and yes that is not a rare sight) I probably wouldn’t smile all that often either!
It is a hard job and these guys should be respected. If they were then they probably wouldn’t be so short with people.
I don’t see the need for stab vests though, I have to say. They are restrictive to movement and in a busy pub they would be more of a hindrence than a help. As for metal detectors… ?!? That isn’t even worth commenting.
What is worth a comment though is Ken (18). Brilliant. I hope you are serious with your comment because it makes it even more hilarious. Were you out with the pope that night? I’m trying to figure out what reason you would have to be “shocked” by the podium dancers in a nightclub. I’m surprised you weren’t shocked by the type of music they were playing and disgusted by the volume!
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In response to Michael’s comment (47) I was just commenting that Jersey is not the place for podium dancers, what next strip joints or lap dancing clubs. It wasn’t that long ago you weren’t allowed to dance on a sunday. Mr Travert’s bizarre comment about needing stab vests surely precludes him from ever standing for election again. Talk about frighten people away from St Helier.
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mad foetus (that cannot be your real name) only an idiot would spend hundreds of pounds on a suit that is likely to be ripped or torn off you, or covered in blood (because someone was hurt badly, and not by me I might add)The traditional uniform for a doorman is black and white, that is what I prefer to wear, what it’s made of does not matter.
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As a former door staff member, I have to agree there are some idiots working the door these days, but there are also alot more decent individuals working the clubs and bars these days too. I worked a few clubs and pubs as it was my full time job,and enjoyed it for a good few years.I had one incident with a guy who pulled a knife,but only 1 in the 10-12 years I worked the “doors”.I never had a fight on the door as i would talk the situation down,as you should do.Problems arose from “weekend warrior” door staff who did it just to have a scrap at the weekend, this was one of the main resons I quit working the door.
Regarding knocking people back for wrong clothes etc, that usually comes from management and having certain “rules” as to what clientel they want in the club.I remember one incident in Rock Galaxy where I had to ask a man to leave as he had a mohawk and a tatoo on his head…the guy was a nice person and fully understood it was the managements problem with him and not mine, but the manager at the time didn’t “like the look of him”.
It seems Mr Travert has only been a doorman for a short time, why does he think he can speak for all doorstaff??Your attitude as a doorman speaks volumes about you.
If you have a good team working the door the club/bar should be an enjoyable place to drink and have fun with few problems.As for stab vests, I heard you can get them on ebay for 75quid.
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Q. do idiots take knives out at night with them..YES..or how else would we have these stabbing incidents so recently….if you had to walk past a detector you could not take them in a pub or club….ask the recent stab victims if they think it’s a good idea…….48 Ken….you cannot be serious..!How can a comment about safety preclude the man from standing for election..he has some very valid points,I suggest you read his website…and as for your Bizarre comment..who are you to say Jersey is not the sort of place for podium dancers and the like …sounds like you could use a night on the town to bring yourself up to speed.
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I don’t know what door Mr Travert works on, but I won’t be stepping foot inside if a doorman need to wear stab vests. Talk about losing business.
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“mad foetus (that cannot be your real name)”
Damn! I was wondering when my cover would be blown. Should have known one of those pesky doormen would crack the code!
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Michael at 47, quite right, people who deal with drunk, abusive and sometimes vulnerable people should be respected.
The problem is, respect does not come automatically. It has to be earned. Those doormen who command respect are, more often that not, those who engage brain first. Most doormen do not have that quality and it is questionable not only whether they deserve respect, but also whether they should be doing the job at all!
I have worked in security outside the island. I was never so arrogant as to demand respect as of right. I practice martial arts and do weight training so I could just “act the hero” like many lower ranking door staff but I choose not to. Perhaps regard should be had to enhanced training and, more to the point, the sort of people who are presently being allowed to work in the security industry in the island.
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Michael Jones 49 said “mad foetus (that cannot be your real name) only an idiot would spend hundreds of pounds on a suit that is likely to be ripped or torn off you”.
Yes indeed, you see it all the time. Black and white is such a fetching colour as well.
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Where does it end?
Will this mean that anybody who comes into contact with drunk louts will require a stab vest?
What about the late night food fast food staff?
Garage staff? Hospital staff?
I know, why don’t the police and law courts just DO THEIR JOB and prevent and punish those who break the law!
Grow some b*lls SoJ……if a person breaks the law then the law should not be there to protect them (i.e. NO HUMAN RIGHTS).
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i dislike the dress code.
and quite feel at home in the dishevelled look.
no need in my eye, to dress up for the pinnicle of entertainment over here.
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You have to admit it, there is something very funny and slightly disturbing about a big man mincing up and down having a hissy fit about the colour of someone’s shoes or the cut of his trousers!
I am not sure that stab vests would protect against crimes against fashion. From what I have seen, it is clashing colours which cause more upset and hissy fits at the door than incidents of violence.
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I am not sure I agree with Harry # 11. The police do have the power to eject people from licensed premises.
From memeory Article 83 of the Licensing (Jersey) Law 1974 creates the offence of being drunk, or quarrelsome/ disorderly on licensed premises. A police officer can require a drunken person to leave and if they refuse to leave, they can be ejected and arrested for the offence revealed.
I no longer live in Jersey, so I can not give an assessment on the behaviour of door staff, especially not from my arm chair across the Channel. However if they are properly regulated by the police there should be no problem, as those who are over zealous and heavy handed can have their licence to operate as door staff can be revoked or suspended.
In my experience the majority of door staff were even handed and those people who complain about them are often those with a grudge. That said there are good door staff and bad ones, just like there are good police officers and poor ones, good lawyers and hopeless lawyers etc., etc.
On the issue of stab vests, I believe these cost between £300 to £400 each and it is best that they are made to measure. As some other correspondents have said, there is nothing to stop individual door supervisors buying their own stab vests. However, I don’t believe they are necessary in Jersey and I certainly wouldn’t recommend wearing one. In my view, having worn flak jackets in Northern Ireland over many years, they are cumbersome and uncomfortable. Furthermore they might give the wearer a false sense of security.
Far better that door staff are properly trained in self defence and conflict resolution, using the recognised continuum of force in accordance with the law.
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As far as I knew Doormen in Jersey already had them, I helped order some in from Israel for some Jersey security staff a while back (nice little earner I can tell you!), they’re also easy to buy over the internet. Why not just add a penny to the cost of drinks and kit out your staff with them?
I don’t know about handheld metal detectors as they can’t tell the difference between a flick knife and a set of car keys. When I lived in Birmingham the result of this was that people had to wait in huge lines to get into clubs. Some hardcore ravers stuck it out in the cold, some others like me just started going home rather than face the hassle..!
NJ.
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BS Deluxe,
I don’t suppose you use the Planet Jersey forums do you? It’s just that someone tried to make the point you made about the law not applying to those who broke it a few weeks ago, I’ll ask you what I asked them.
If the benefit of the law can’t be given to people accused of breaking it, in the first instance how do we tell the innocent from the guilty? Or perhaps you don’t mind a few innocent people being harassed and victimised provided it gets your point across? Would you feel the same way if you were one of them I wonder?
Furthermore if the law does not apply to supposed criminals, on what basis do we claim a right to punish them? If it does and they are answerable to it, then why can they not enjoy the same rights such as presumption of innocence that you would, if you were accused of a crime?
Naturally you’re going to tell me that you’re a very special person and that you would never so much as think about breaking the law, however given that you’re respect for the law is so abysmal that you think it doesn’t apply to certain people, you’ll forgive me for doubting your sincerity.
NJ.
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“…I was just commenting that Jersey is not the place for podium dancers…”
Your opinion is not shared by all; I’d prefer to be the kind of place that allows freedom for adults to dance.
“…what next strip joints or lap dancing clubs…”
We can only hope so, but I fear the SoJ lacks the will to allow such freedom.
“…It wasn’t that long ago you weren’t allowed to dance on a sunday…”
Or be homosexual, vote if you were female etc. etc. and all these ridiculous laws were recognised as such and repealed.
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Why not?
Body armour is defensive, its not as though we are talking about giving them baseball bats like Big Dick used to keep above the door at Sands in the 70s.
He experienced very little trouble !
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There have been a few comments here referring to Roy Travert’s perceived lack of experience on the doors. Just to maybe allay some fears on this front, My friend and I were in Chambers before Christmas, when Mr Travert approached my friend, who by that time was rather drunk and unsteady on his feet. He suggested to my friend that he’d have to leave, so I interjected to offer to lead my friend out of Chambers myself. He agreed and left us to it, I’m sure with an eye on whether we actually were heading towards the door. I thought this was rather a refreshing approach, as during my socialising career in Jersey I’ve witnessed equally drunk people being pounced on by numerous bouncers, put into holds and frog marched out of pubs. This action normally provokes a reaction in the recipient of the hold, even if there was no malice there to start with. Therefore, Mr Travert, thank you for dealing with us in such a civil manner.
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Bob Fleming at 64, well said and well done to Mr Travert.
Having said this, a member of door staff has no legal right whatsoever to place hands on a customer unless he is called upon to exercise reasonable force to eject the person. A doorman who fails to ask the customer to leave before “getting physical” is committing a common assault.
Yes, Mr Travert got it right and is, if this account is typical, a good security operative. It is a pity though, that the fact that someone acts properly is remarkable. Perhaps other door staff might take note of the fact that, in failing to ask first, they would appear to be routinely breaking the law.
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B Fleming @64.
What you describe, namely door staff putting people into holds without giving the opportunity to leave or otherwise investigating the matter is illegal. It is assault.
I think that the door registration scheme must have failed if this kind of thing is going on. The registration was introduced in 1996 in order to protect the public against poor door staff. It followed a particularly serious assault by a doorman in 1994.
Those training doorstaff should make it absolutely clear that it is not acceptable just to physically overpower and violate any person. A lot of people would be humiliated by such behaviour. There will also be occasions where the doorman will “bite off more than he can chew” and pick on someone who is skilled and knows what he is doing. Although the doorman can call on his colleagues to bail him out, it hardly sets a good example and I have seen this situation where the bully comes unstuck in that way. It is not a pleasant site, is contrary to the licence and is plainly illegal.
Let the security industry look at itself before it seeks enhanced powers. It could start with drug testing door staff for anabolic steroids. Steroids are linked to aggression and violent behaviour.
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Part 2 of this weeks report into the ‘dangerous’ town of St. Helier was even more cynical and twisted then Monday’s. Amongst the opinionated, circumstantial and fluffy paragraphs were some statistics showing that serious assaults had REDUCED between 2009 and 2008 but even then it was twisted:
“Violent assaults increased by 17% over a period last year…”
Eh? What period? You mean the couple of weekends the JEP carefully selected where there was an unusual spike in violence in an otherwise less violent year?
In smaller print it then goes on to say “…but serious assaults are down overall.” Surely that should have been the big print and first?
This kind of selective unbalanced reporting is inflammatory and does neither Jersey or the JEP any favours. Still waiting on comparative data with other jurisdictions…
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61 Nathan Jordan
No I don’t but it is encouraging to know their are like-minded people out there
Moving on to your comment which seems rather irrelevant to my post…..I already stated “if a person breaks the law then the law should not be there to protect them”.
This somewhat intimates that someone has already been convicted of breaking the law otherwise how do we know the law has been broken?
Nowhere did I say if someone is “accused” of breaking the law that they should not be protected so please don’t invent something to justify your high moralistic speech.
So what REALLY was your point?
You seem a bit deluded to be able to make absurd deductions about me…”however given that you’re respect for the law is so abysmal that you think it doesn’t apply to certain people, you’ll forgive me for doubting your sincerity.”
Actually I won’t forgive your random and ficticious comment.
If you read my post PROPERLY you may begin to understand I was talking about those that have been CONVICTED of a crime…..it could also, however, include those caught in the midst of committing a crime.
You answer me this oh wise one….
The Bulger killers…..do you think it is right, under human rights laws, that they should live a much better life than other youngsters of their age (who have not committed atrocious crimes), getting better education, playing games consoles when they please and living amongst us under new identities enjoying their youth…. all paid for by the UK taxpayer…..after the dispicable crimes they WERE convicted for?
Likewise for Maxine Carr, Baby P’s killers and many, many others….the list goes on.
Do you think convicted terrorists should be protected by the human rights law, (hypocrtically) worried for their own protection & safety in their homeland when threatened with deportation, when they had every intention of committing large scale atrocities and never once thinking or caring about the human rights of the very people they seek compassion from!
It’s do-gooders like you who have contributed to the mess we are in today’s society. This is where society has broken down, allowing too many people who have no idea of reality have a say!
I’m sure your tune would change the moment some monster enters your cosy and sheltered world and destroyes everything you hold dear……or would you want to give them a hug and become best friends!
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This is the biggest joke i’ve ever seen.
The only thing i ever see in Jersey, is 12 meat head, kncukle scrapping skin head bouncers dragging one poor skinny man out of a nightclub for spilling his drink.
Most bouncers have hugely over inflated egos. They become bouncers typically due to being bullied at school and thus wanting to take their anger out at their piers.
Most of their actions are accustomed to common assault.
How many members of the public are allowed to drag someone out of a nightclub by their skull. Whilst smashing into innocent members of the public having a drink in the bar.
I feel embarassed for this guy.
Seriously, control your over inflated ego for just a while and get a life.
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Surely a better way of doing this would be to ban all people convicted of a violent offence from an nightclub for 5 years, for there to be a public database of such people, and for people to be required to show proof of identity before being admitted to such places.
That will keep known mentalists out of nighclubs and if anyone does kick off it will be easy to identify them. That’s got to be better than stab vests for body builders, doesn’t it?
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Jambo #69
I sincerely hope that if someone is stamping on your head in a bar these “meat head, kncukle scrapping skin head bouncers” as you call them !intervene, to stop said stomping, take stomper to the door (hopefully not spilling too many of the the not too interested in the ebbing flow of your life spirit, audiences, drinks) then restraining said stomper from re-entering the bar to complete said stomping on your head until the police arrive, depending on how many other stompers they are dealing with this may take a little while.
Then you wont have to get a life, the “meat head, kncukle scrapping skin head bouncers” will have saved the one you have.
Do you think it may be a good idea for them to be wearing (covert) body armour just in case stomper has a slicer mate with him ?
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Reading the previous comments there are a high number of people criticising doormen and very few praising them. I think management need to be a bit more selective who they employ. We have all witnessed doormen getting carried away. I recall being in a nightclub when my wife accidentally knocked into a lady, she apologised and before she knew it was manhandled out of the place by an over zealous doorman. Personally speaking you would need to pay me before I set foot in a St Helier dive again.
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Robin Thurton # 66. All door staff used to be taught the continuum of force. This starts with just talking to a person who may be in breach of the licensing law, e.g.”I am sorry sir, but you’ve had too much to drink. Would you please leave the premises.” If this doesn’t work, then door staff have to be more assertive in their tone and if that fails they can start with taking hold of soemone’s arm and lead them to the exit.
Obviously when people are under the influence of alcohol and sometimes a combination of alcohol and drugs, they have a tendancy to be uncooperative and resist being led to the exit. That’s when things flare up and you might witness a struggle.
Usually people don’t see how things started; they often only take any notice when things have escalated and that might be a doorman or doorwoman struggling to get a drunk and aggressive customer out of the door.
Don’t forget a licensee is laiable under the law, if he / she permits drunkenness on his / her premises. The door staff are servants of the licensee and are trying to ensure compliance with the law.
Door staff are also there to prevent violence occurring on licensed premises. If they see an assault occur, they can restrain an assailant and must immediately call the police. They are allowed to use minimal force, but only sufficient to achieve their objective. If they use more than reasonable force, then they may be dealt with for committing an assault – as indeed may a police officer if he / she uses excessive force.
As others have said in this chain of entries, you will have good and bad in all jobs. The majority of door staff do a good job – don’t forget, more often than not their action will be captured on CCTV and so it’s in their interest to behave, otherwise they will lose their job and they may be liable to conviction or even civil action of they act inappropriately.
Far too many people stereotype door supervisors as big and brainless. In my experience, when I was the Licensing Sergeant, from January 1996 to December 1997, there were some doormen and doorwomen, who were highly articulate and intelligent. Yes there was a minority who caused problems, but they were very much a minority.
The job of policing would be much harder without the assistance they get from door staff at licensed premises. The problem is door supervisors aren’t there to win a popularity contest; they are there to do a difficult job.
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66 Robin Thurton ‘Those training door staff should make it absolutely clear that it is not acceptable just to physically overpower and violate any person’ I would like to invite Robin to one of the JDR courses to see for himself what door staff go through. Those training door staff spend almost 6 hours making it absolutely clear that it is NOT acceptable just to physically overpower and violate any person, and explain the consequences if they do
JDR
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Dave Morgan 73.
Re your comment: “The problem is door supervisors aren’t there to win a popularity contest; they are there to do a difficult job.”
Too true, but if they all have Mr Travert’s ‘uppity’ expression (as per the photo), it’s no small wonder that even teetotallers scuttle past them (heads down as fast as they can) to avoid the menacing looks on their faces…
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Born Warrior # 75. Many of my former colleagues will tell you that I sometimes had a face like thunder; but facial expressions don’t always tell the whole truth and hopefully people will tell you I am generally good-natured.
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I cn see and agree that the stab vest is not a great idea. However, is it not that the real point here is not so much “how many door staff have been stabbed in the last ten years” but more to the point, when and where, and it has happened many times, will the next person, any member of the public, be stabbed. Its the knife we want to eliminate and the person carrying/useing it, not the door staff who are trying to stop this happening. I do take the points regarding good and bad door staff. I think many of you have really missed the point here in favour of having a dig at the door staff. Lets get rid of them all and see what the clubs, bars etc turn into with violence. You could always call the Police, but will they come, are they there, when will they come! They’ll come to the hospital for a statement afterwards. I guarantee you that the public won’t stand up for you when it all goes horribly wrong, when a drunk is lunging at you with a broken glass or what ever he/she chooses because you accidentally bumped into him or her. I’ve seen it happen. They run with fear, your family, friends, the innocent become the victim. Period.
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For any doormen who are worried sick about the risk of being stabbed or attacked there is a simple solution: don’t be a doorman! Nobody’s forcing you to do that for a living. In any case, someone who is determined to harm a doorman (and someone who carries a knife into a club is obviously determined to hurt someone) would be aware of the policy of issuing stab vests and could simply stab them where the vest offers no protection (like the legs for example). Maybe the solution is to issue bouncers with full-body chainmail; on second thoughts, a person could simply glass them in the face. I suppose they would also have to be issued with metal visors or crash helmets (where would it all end?).
Anyway, Roy Travert is a big, scary Karate eighth-dan so how come he finds St. Helier so terrifying? Come on Roy and JEP, it’s not that bad…
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JDR said: “I would like to invite Robin to one of the JDR courses to see for himself what door staff go through. Those training door staff spend almost 6 hours making it absolutely clear that it is NOT acceptable just to physically overpower and violate any person, and explain the consequences if they do”
Thank you. Firstly, does your invitation extend to any concerned party? Will it be a genuine opportunity to see the course at work or will it be a selective shop “shop front” open day? What are your contact details for the invitation please?
Secondly, it is clear from what you kindly say that the training is there. Perhaps the point which the course makes needs ramming home harder. The fact that doormen seem to ignore what is taught suggests that ongoing supervision of door staff is very much required. It also makes it easier for a disgruntled customer to secure a prosecution for assault because the doorman cannot plead ignorance as to what he can and cannot do.
I would urge any person who is assaulted by a security operative to report the matter. Any persons in the vicinity should take mobile phone video footage for evidential purposes. No doubt it could also be argued that persons going to night clubs should learn some martial arts skills in order to deal with what would appear to be a common problem with security staff. That, of course, simply escalates matters but, in the absence of proper and offical intervention, it may be the only option.
It is noted that, having effectively opened up this matter, Mr Travert [who I believe is well respected and a high ranking black belt in American Kenpo] has not yet made further comment.
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The door registration scheme was introduced in 1996 in order to protect the public against poor door staff. It followed a particularly serious assault by a doorman in 1994. Various other assaults elsewhere preceded that attack but the authorites eventually had to act against this menace.
It was and remains clear that the public needs protection against door staff, not the other way round
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In response to comment 78 it doesn’t matter if you are a karate 8th Dan or not just watch” Jim Carey Karate” on you tube to prove how effective self defence can be or not in this case
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79 Nicholas Dobson you are more than welcome to see or take part in any of the courses, firstly I ask that you collect an application form from Police HQ, All the contact details are there, no need to fill in the form ‘unless you want to be registered as a Security supervisor’
Unfortunately with any course you can ram it home as hard as you like to no effect ‘I would urge any person who is assaulted by a security operative to report the matter’. I totally agree but it works both ways. as this column keeps saying there are good and bad out there,
It looks like you have been at the hands of the bad ones, Please get in touch.
Jersey Door Registration
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Thanks JDR, that is helpful. Very good comment and suggestion.
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#79
Just to clarify – ignorance of the law is no excuse – a doorman will not be able to get out of prosecution by pleading ignorance to what he can and cannot do
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Just a thought how much training do our honorary Police get and do they get stab vests ?
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84, absolutely correct.
Apart from anything else, the doorman is the alter ego of the licensee and, as such, is under a duty to act reasonably.
If you are concerned at the conduct of a doorman at a particular establishment, find out from the Judicial Greffe when the licence is due for renewal and put in an objection when it comes up.
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Oh my god, get a grip.!!!
Jersey still stands as one of the safest places to live in the world. St Helier is not a dangerous place.
Yes there are idiots here as there are everywhere. If you are sensible you can avoid these idiots quite easily.
I say we all need moan proof ear muffs!!! There are so many moaners over here who just dont appreciate how good they have it. [that includes this publicity grabbing so called door man]
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I have been working the doors for around 25 years now and have had more than a few scrapes during that time. I had the pleasure of working the door in Jersey over a three year period from 2002. In that time I worked with some great people. I never found it necessary to think about getting a stab vest. There just didn’t seem to be a threat level that would have justified the 3-400 pound expense. The self defence element of my training as part of the JDR was provided by Arthur Illingworth and was top drawer stuff. I don’t know Roy Travert as I don’t think he was on the doors the same time as me but I don’t think that a lot of the Door supervisors I worked with would be in favour of mandatory kitting out in stab vests. As for getting a stab vest on eBay, Kevlar only has a shelf life of 6 years and after this the plates need changed. A lot of the vests on eBay have plates that have reached the end of their shelf life and therefore would offer little or no protection. This is why they are priced so cheaply.
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If the doormen could speak the Queen’s English they would solve 80% of the problem.remember brains is better than brawn
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Glad to see most of the comments on this article displaying common sense and exposing this ridiculous piece of journalism as desperate page filling. Part of the reason people perceive St.Helier as less safe is thanks to the JEP’s over zealous “reporting” on these issues!
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If like a good few comments above are to be believed, the “few bad apples in the industry” are well known, why are they still working the door ?
The reason ? Because even though some door staff are massively over zealous in their ejection of some people from pubs and clubs, their managers aren’t interested in taking hold of their staff and getting rid of them or disciplining them. Far easier to blame the punter for being drunk etc.
I was “escorted” out of a Bar in May last year because 2 of my friends (1 male and 1 female) had had too much to drink (supposedly).
Both were forcibly ejected, but both cases were totally over the top.
I wasn’t involved in any way shape or form,
but was approached at the bar afterwards and told that I also had to leave as the bouncers “knew I was with them” When I said I had done nothing wrong, I was shoved twice in the back away from the bar and then pushed towards the doors by a bouncer.
When I informed him that he was actually assaulting me by doing this my arm was forced behind my back and I was told that I was taking a huge risk in telling him how to do his job. When I complained outside to another bouncer of my treatment, I was told to comme back at 2.30am where I could “discuss it” with them both in a nearby lane.
I was also told that they would take great pleasure in “smashng my face in” as I was causing trouble.
I complained to the Hotel manager the next day informing himn fully of their offer to meet me at 2.30 but was told that having reviewed the CCTV the bouncers had done nothing wrong !
There was no justification in their behaviour and having asked other punters since, have heard many similar stories yet BOTH still work on the door in this place.
Far better to weed out the bad doorstaff on power trips than issue stab vests to protect bouncers from punters who on the whole are just out to have a few beers and a good time.
The problem with some door staff over here is that there are only a handful of places where most people go, so the bouncers know that you can’t really complain about their behaviour as if you do, there will come a point in time when you will want to go back to that same place only to be told “you’re barred” even though bouncers have no right what so ever to bar you from any premises.
It is soley down to the management of the establishment. The reason I know all this is because of what happened to me and my friends last year. And yes,I still get “evils” from the 2 guys in question as they obviously both know that I complained about their behaviour.
Anyone have figures for prosecutions of door staff for assault since the case of 1994 ?
I’d imagine it is very, very small yet a lot people I’ve spoken to have a story of some kind relating to bouncers and their unnecessary aggresion.
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