Home Affairs pull out of move for a knife crime law
Saturday 13th February 2010, 2:59PM GMT.
Home Affairs Minister Ian Le Marquand.
KNIFE crime proposals have been cut from Home Affairs’ plans for this year.
In the same week that a 33-year-old was jailed for four years for stabbing his girlfriend’s brother and in which an appeal was made for doormen to be issued with stab vests, the department said that it was dropping plans for a new law.
Home Affairs Minister Ian Le Marquand said that the proposed law conferring search powers and punishments for carrying bladed and pointed items was not a high priority for his department and was being cut from their plans for 2010.
The law-drafting time already secured will be allocated to other projects – possibly including proposals for a new police authority.
See Saturday’s JEP for full story.
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you should cut it in the bud before you get the problems the mainland have. i have 2 children of the ages 18 and 14 and they go to croydon, south london to shops and the elder to clubs of an evening, and the hole time they are there i worry for their safty. you really should think on so you dont have to worry about your kids getting stabbed every time they go out. hit the holders of the knives bloody hard every time you find a blade before they have used it. prevention is always better than cure.
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Thank you, Home Affairs Minister Ian le Marquand.
Until now, most people in Jersey had been labouring under the misapprehension that the prevention of crimes of violence against the person was important.
But no, we were mistaken: you think that other, vague and undefined political projects are far more important.
You clearly have not read the other crime-related story in today’s issue: the story about Oscar Isik, left paralysed after trying to prevent a crime. Only yesterday we read about Simon Livingstone, jailed for four years for – guess what – knife-related violence.
How about the 14-year old rapist who took a kitchen knife with him to threaten his victim at Westmount. He was jailed for four years on 25 January 2010.
On Christmas Eve last year one Hugh James Brown stabbed a 29-year old man in the stomach.
All these crimes were reported in this newspaper during the last six weeks alone. I could have cited many, many more.
But of course YOU know that other things are far, far more important in terms of parliamentary time than legislation against knife crime in Jersey.
Don’t you, Ian le Marquand?
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Thank you Albert Salmon, very well said.
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Albert Salmon, well said sir!
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Albert Salmon # 2 – Hear, hear. Well said.
Now I am just a mere retired cop, not a highly qualified lawyer like Ian le Marquand, but surely all the States have to do is plagiarise the legislation already in place in England and Wales. Indeed why is this not done with the majority of the laws in Jersey – it would save hundreds of thousands of pounds in the Law Draftsman’s time and effort writing new laws. It would also go some way to reducing the financial deficit the Island is reportedly experiencing. The kiss principle – keep it simple…..simples!
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To Jy.Dee.If I was worried about the safety of my children I would get the hell out.In Jersey I have never had a problem with my child’s safety in any area and hope it continues.
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Yes indeed Albert Salmon-very well said.However to be fair to Ian le Marquand perhaps he would prefer to wait for the growing problem of knife crime in Jersey to turn into a very major one before he decides to think about addressing it and then the States can take 5 years debating it by which time it will be completely out of hand.
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Nip it in the bud before we get the problems the mainland have?
The has been a “knife legislation” in the UK since 1988. What has that done to prevent knife crime?
We already have a law in Jersey under which to prosecute individuals who carry or use everyday objects (like knives) with malicious intent –
Section 43 here:
http://www.jerseylaw.je/Law/display.aspx?url=lawsinforce%2fconsolidated%2f23%2f23.200_FirearmsLaw2000_RevisedEdition_1January2006.htm
Knife legislation makes criminals out of people, like me, who carry a pocket knife as a useful tool, while the scumbags who carry knives as weapons carry on regardless.
I refer you to the mess that is the United Kingdom.
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Just goes to show how deeply disconnected from reality this individual is. First the comments on drugs and now knife crime. Says it all really.
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Steve 8.
It may well be that knife crime has not subsided in the UK since the introduction of Knife legislation, but that doesn’t mean the law doesn’t work…enforcement is what counts!
I really don’t want to quibble over laws and provisions, but quite frankly, after years of hearing about growing street violence, I truly believe that this would be a “commom-sense” law and not just another not “saving you from yourself” law.
Times have changed and laws must keep pace with the new situation. Violent drunks roam the streets of St Helier at night and fights are the ‘order-of-the-day’. And, if people no longer feel safe, then surely laws and sentences should reflect that. There is also need for tougher sentences with no loopholes for first-time offenders (I see no reason why a ‘violent’ first-time offender should receive a break) and more police on the streets.
The people of Jersey want a peaceful society with effective laws and policing. Yet, they continuously ask the same question: “Where are the police?”
Well, they are obviously not on the beat and there is no excuse!
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@ Albert Salmon #2
“…All these crimes were reported in this newspaper during the last six weeks alone. I could have cited many, many more…”
And did not most of those reports contain information on the perpetrators of these instances being caught, charged and prosecuted?
Is using a knife violently not already illegal? Exactly what would a new law achieve in the prevention of knife crime? Make it easier for the Police to arrest people just for having a knife, or other ‘dangerous weapon’?
I was stopped one night in my car (for no apparent reason) and was accused of ‘going equipped’ by two Police officers, because I had tools in my car that could be used to break and enter; what were those tools?
A spade, a garden fork, a torch and a 20Kg bag of decorative pebbles. The spade and fork were unused and I had the receipt from B&Q for all the items (other than the torch) timed a couple of hours earlier. I put it to them that they were in fact idiots, and how could they come to the conclusion that I was off to burgle rather than garden. They actually said that gardening didn’t explain the torch! I pointed out that I thought it was probably wise to have a torch in the boot of a car for emergencies.
My point is that we don’t need more laws to cover areas that are already covered, we just need better policing, and it sounds like the Minister is thinking the same, if he’s prioritizing a better police authority over useless paperwork.
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J Lamborrari
Consider yourself lucky that you were stopped by the SoJP; if it had been the Toy Town honorary police they would have had you banged up by now!
It is precisely because this tiny island’s police force(s) – thirteen of them in total – prefer to stop and search “soft” targets like you that the real criminals know they can get away with murder. Almost literally so; it’s only a matter of time before a victim of knife crime bleeds to death in our streets while Senator le Marquand busies himself with trivial legislation.
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J Lamborrari # 11. If what you have said about being stopped for ‘going equipped’ is true, then you are right in saying the cops were wrong to stop and search you. What possible reason did they have to make them believe you’d committed an offence? Please don’t tar all police officers with the same brush.
Police powers need to be clearly defined in law, so both the public and the police know exactly under what circumstances they can stop and search you for weapons. Ideally a written record of the search should be made, with officers recording what made them believe a particular person had a weapon, to justify the search.
I do agree with your comments on the priority for more police time to be spent on the streets. With modern day IT systems, they should be able to fill in forms, put entries on computers, write narratives and statements whilst they are out on the street.
There needs to be more comment from the police hierarchy; to justify, or otherwise deny the absence of officers on the streets.
In byegone days, the late Sergeant ‘Honky’ Newton used to walk around the police station and chase officers out onto the street, if he thought they’d spent too long doing their paperwork. He used something that seems to be lacking in today’s service; it’s called discipline.
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There is an illusion…that legislating against..whatever ails us fixes it…Wrong.we are already awash with laws..they’re just not being policed,recently we heard a request for metal detectors in clubs/pubs..the security staff must surely be happier knowing that having past through a detector on the way in that at least those inside have no knives on them and so only have to remain focused on the door aspect…we all pass through shops and boutiques with these things so no one could object and people could enjoy a pint safe in the knowledge that they weren’t going to be stabbed on the premises at least…lets drop all this waste of tax payers money on law drafting and lets get practical.let’s have those cops out of the cars and on to the streets where they belong…if the problem is at ground level let’s have our police at ground level,not scoffing doughnuts in some car park….
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@ Blue Knight #13
“…If what you have said about being stopped for ‘going equipped’ is true, then you are right in saying the cops were wrong to stop and search you…”
I wasn’t stopped for ‘going equiped’, that was just what they started to accuse me of after searching the boot of my car.
“…What possible reason did they have to make them believe you’d committed an offence?…”
That’s exactly what I asked, but they could provide absolutely no good reason.
“…Please don’t tar all police officers with the same brush…”
Sorry, but the very poor standard of Policing is pretty much universal in my experience, which makes it very hard not to ‘tar them all with the same brush’.
I made a complaint about the illegal search, and the officer I complained to didn’t give a hoot.
If the Police don’t want their uniform tarred with the brush because of their incompetent colleagues, maybe they should start actually kicking them out. We do not need new laws, we need new, better Police officers.
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“We do not need new laws, we need new, better Police officers”.
All the complaints brought in this thread: poor judgment in the choice of criminal legislation, the behaviour of the Jersey Police and the shortcomings of the Honorary Police all end up on the desk of one and the same person: Senator Ian le Marquand, Minister for Home Affairs.
Funny, isn’t it? No, three better words come to mind: sad, scandalous and pathetic.
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J Lamborrari # 15. Apologies, I meant of course that you were allegedly wrongly stopped, on suspicion of ‘goinq equipped’.
The Crime (Going Equipped)(Jersey) Law 2003, is unknown to me, as it came into force after I retired. I am however aware of the Theft Act 1968, on which the 2003 Jersey legislation is clearly based.
I can understand your views on policing in the Island, if you were treated in the manner you claim.
There are many who comment on the JEP discussion board, about the poor performance of the police.It seems there may be no smoke without fire. I believe this can only be attributable to inadequate supervision and management.
It is lamentable, that the hierarchy of the States of Jersey Police, repeatedly fail to rebut the criticism the Force receive. Maybe you can not defend the indefensible.
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J Lamborarrari,
We do need more laws, what is to stop a man walking down the road with a Samuri Sword?
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@ Chubby Warlock
I don’t see a reason to stop somebody walking down the street with a sword. They only need to be stopped and treated as a criminal if they act in a threatening manner; something we already have laws against.
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Walking down the street with a Samurai sword is prohibited by Law. A sword is designed for causing injury to people and is automatically defined as an offensive weapon.
http://www.jerseylaw.je/Law/display.aspx?url=lawsinforce%2Fconsolidated%2F23%2F23.200_FirearmsLaw2000_RevisedEdition_1January2006.htm
Section 43.
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#19 Now you’re having a laugh.
Who isn’t going to feel threatened by someone walking down the street with a samurai sword, regardless of the person’s behaviour?
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@ Steve #20
Thank you. A perfect example of why we don’t need another law when Steve has shown proof that a perfectly adequate law is already in place.
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Steve # 20 and J Lamborrari # 22
Article 43 Firearms (Jersey) Law 2000 Prohibits the carrying of offensive weapons without lawful authority or reasonable excuse.
However, there doesn’t seem to be a power for the police to stop, detain and search people who may be reasonably be believed to be carrying an offensive weapon.
If people are tempted to carry an offensive weapon, they may be deterred if they knew the cops had a statutory power to stop and search them for weapons. They can stop, detain and search you for drugs, but there is apparently
no such power to search for offensive weapons.
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@ Blue Knight #23
“…there doesn’t seem to be a power for the police to stop, detain and search people who may be reasonably be believed to be carrying an offensive weapon…”
If an officer reasonably believes that a person is carrying an offensive weapon he has the power of arrest; I’m not sure, but once an arrest is made then surely the suspect can be searched under the present law.
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Blue Knight/J Lamborrari
Article 9, PPaCE,
(2) Subject to paragraphs (3) to (5), a police officer –
(a) may search any person or vehicle, or anything which is in or on a vehicle, for stolen or prohibited articles; and
(b) may detain a person or vehicle for the purpose of that search.
(3) This Article shall not give a police officer power to search a person or vehicle or anything in or on a vehicle unless the officer has reasonable grounds for suspecting that he or she will find stolen or prohibited articles
Hope this helps
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@ PJG #25
Yes, thanks. That was my understanding of the present situation.
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@ Leah Holmes #21
“…Who isn’t going to feel threatened by someone walking down the street with a samurai sword, regardless of the person’s behaviour?…”
Me.
Doesn’t Andrew Ridgway often walk about with a sword? would you feel theatened Leah?
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PJG # 25 and J Lamborrari # 26. Thanks guys; this is legislation that has been introduced since I left….I guess it’s best for me to keep my mouth shut on things I am not au fait with.
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#27 Yes, I would
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PJG (#25):
“PJG
Posted February 18, 2010 at 10:57 am Blue Knight/J Lamborrari
Article 9, PPaCE,
(2) Subject to paragraphs (3) to (5), a police officer –
(a) may search any person or vehicle, or anything which is in or on a vehicle, for stolen or prohibited articles; and
(b) may detain a person or vehicle for the purpose of that search.
(3) This Article shall not give a police officer power to search a person or vehicle or anything in or on a vehicle unless the officer has reasonable grounds for suspecting that he or she will find stolen or prohibited articles
Hope this helps”
You really are obsessed with policing, aren’t you, PJG?
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@ Leah Holmes #29
That’s very sad, I assume you would also feel threatened by a fireman carrying an axe, and as such your paranoia should really mean your opinion does not represent that of the general public, and therefore isn’t an opinion I would want any law based on.
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I feel society in general being threatened when I see someone selling Samurai swords (very obviously imported to sell to the feeble minded rather than something that has been in a loft for years)at car boot sales in Jersey.
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I am often to be found on the harbours and quays of the island with a large and very sharp knife in my bag or near to me.
I am fishing and the knife is for cutting up bait and cleaning fish.
The knife is being used in the pursuit of my legitimate hobby.
If a police officer was mad enough to arrest and charge me with carrying an offensive weapon I doubt the case would get very far.
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#33
“I am often to be found on the harbours and quays of the island with a large and very sharp knife in my bag or near to me.
I am fishing and the knife is for cutting up bait and cleaning fish.
The knife is being used in the pursuit of my legitimate hobby…”
Leah, you have been warned!
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