2

Mr P Bench

I write in relation to Deputy Anne Pryke’s latest comments, giving particular thought to the reference that the homeless problem could just be a ‘blip’.

Now, I don’t know where Mrs Pryke has been for the last 20-25 years, but I remember having to dodge past these unsavioury characters, frequenting the parade park since I was a tot – narrowly avoiding beers cans and colourful language.

Having said that, I think the shelters nowadays do a marvellous job – I have on a number of occasions made use of their facilities after being ‘locked out’ by the other half.

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4

JPSpecial

Homeless, get back under the rug.
Wheres the broom when you need it?
Get a JOB and stop drinking! Although I would be surprised if homeless people were reading this.

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6

Desperate Dan

We need an equiry, there’s a recession on and people are losing their jobs = more homeless simple ( with Meercat like flourish )

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8

Matt

Some people end up in a spiral of self destruction though if drink takes over. Some other people end up breaking the law just to get into prison to stop sleeping rough. I totally agree with the comment about foreign accents, this Island cannot afford to be a charity and places like the Shelter Trust which have been given some incredibly generous donations in the past is really only for local people.

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10

XENOPHOBIA

Its always nice to know,that XENOPHOBIA is alive and kicking,does it matter where a person is from,if they are on the streets,No.IT DOES MEAN THAT THEY ARE NOT illegal,for gods sake get a life.This is a problem that will never go away.I just hope that idiots like KEN,never finds himself in this position.AND yes,it can happen to you….NEVER SAY NEVER,,,

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12

Davey West

Minister Anne Pryke, has still not satisfied questions following Verita’s damming report on the management issues at the Hospital. The fact that no heads have rolled, has made some politians gasp in amazement.

The weather has not been that good lately, anyone notice a lot of fog about.

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14

fed up

Many of these comments are behond belief! It,s not just drunks and druggies that are homeless. I think alot of people here need to do some more research into what they are saying.
How about volunteering yourself or speaking with the team that run these shelters. Everyone has a story to tell, and yes there are some who are just bleeding the system so true. Just remember anyone of us could end up in this situation and be glad of the help that is out there.

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16

May

Not a very compassionate lot are you. These people are all somebody’s son sister brother etc. And the person begrudging them sandwich’s and soup vans jeez, these are acts of charity so don’t worry you don’t have to pay for it.

Anyway it’s not a case of them saving money on food so they have more for drinking it’s a case of them eating at all.

I would imagine that they are stuck in a vicious circle the drinking is a result of self medication to avoid the nightmare of being homeless and the homelessness continues because of the drinking.

Food vouchers would be a good idea but the sad fact is that someone with a substance abuse problem would just sell them.

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18

Hospital Nurse

Tobias comment no 7 – “Anyone who thinks these people need yet more help should take a stroll through Parade Gardens.
Do any of them look underfed? LOL, far from it!
Do any of them look in need of clothes, food, or drink? Again LOL far from it
They’re always extremely well-fed and have got plenty of luxuries such as cans of beer – they’re usually already half-cut when I go past at 8.30am
They’ve always got plenty of cigarettes, they’re generally very jovial (except when they’re fighting and swearing at each other) and it would appear to me that they’re hardly having a rough time of it and in need of further assistance.
On top of all this, I have personally seen the nurses from the hospital taking them trays of sandwiches to go with their beer. Not to mention the occasional soup van.”

There is no shortage of ill informed comment on this forum but your’s takes some beating. I am one of the nurses who gives sandwiches to those homeless individuals in need of nourishment. The sandwiches are from the wards and have not been eaten by patients, they would otherwise be thrown away. So your objection is to me feeding garbage to the homeless?? As part of my training I have to study many types of illness alcoholism amongst them, this is a disease not a lifestyle choice.The only choice these people have is whether to take the first drink, thereafter all choice is removed from them.

What would you have society do with them, force them to work – they are clearly unable in their present condition. Provide a comprehensive recovery programme, absoulutely it’s what they need although many would not engage in it simply because their addiction is so severe. We live in the wealthiest 8% of the planet, if we cannot afford to provide basic care for our sick what does that say about us.

Your ignorance is just about understandable, your lack of humanity is unforgivable.

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20

theresa

What is the point of all those inquiries. No notice is taken from the outcome. After the Verita report, how many people where disciplined for not doing their job and being incompetent? This minister only want to appear of doing something!!!

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22

Disappointed In JSY

Why not put your report money to some ACTUAL use? These reports and studies are a joke, nothing ever comes from them no matter what the result!
It was not long ago that I was close to becoming homeless. I was in a well paid job £32k, I have a Business Studies degree which I did through the OU and yet when I fell pregnant my work declared (when I was 6 months gone) that I would not get paid maternity leave after all (I had been there just over a year). My husband was on minimum wage so could not cover our private rent – I earnt too much to get a States home. I was terrified of what would happen. I already had 10 year old twin daughters and was scared that we would all end up on the streets with me due to have my baby in a matter of a couple of months.

Thankfully with just four weeks to go we were offered a States home and moved in. Our private landlords refused to give us the bond money back due to the short notice of us leaving and perceived redecorating needed (which there was none, we did it all before leaving). Then just three weeks after my son was born, my husband was made redundant – so I am well aware of how bad it can get in a short space of time. I am Jersey born (not that it really matters) We are now getting back on our feet and am so thankful that. No one is immune from the recession or poverty – and for the record… if I had not been pregnant or breast feeding I would have had a fair few drinks over the last few months too!

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24

Tobias

18 – Hospital Nurse
Yes I would indeed have them forced to work, if they refuse then they lose their handouts.
“They are clearly unable to work in their present condition” – indeed, which is why it seems so crazy that the Parish basically sponsors them to remain so by giving them free weekly cash. They should at the very least be made to sweep the roads or pick up rubbish around town, this would keep them sober for a few hours per day whilst they earn their beer money.
“If we cannot afford to provide basic care for our sick…” – so providing basic care equates to giving them cash with which to buy alcohol, does it?
As for the other comment that these people are all “someone’s son, brother, etc…” – yes, and so was Hitler, he was someones son. So was Pol Pot, so was Saddam, so was Bin Laden. So your point is really quite laughable and just follows the normal bleeding-heart philosophy of “what if it was your family”
Perhaps the teenage rapist from Westmount last month should not be imprisoned, as he is obviously “someone’s son”.
Whilst I do not disagree that some of these homeless / alcoholic druggies actually would benefit from help, this is not likely to happen whilst we continue to fuel their habit with cash and no incentive to work. Even the most liberal-minded people surely cannot fail to see that we’re helping nobody with this course of action.
Again I reiterate that it is unacceptable to allow these people to continually get extremely drunk on ratepayers money right outside a childrens playground.

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26

Mark

We elect politicians on he basis of the solutions they have to offer. Health has problems and Anne Pryke is the elected representative who is responsible for Health.

The homeless may be a problem, but I would like Anne Pryke to remain focused on Health until she delivers a long term Health solution, or admits defeat and retires.

The homeless, deserving or otherwise, are a distraction which is keeping Anne Pryke’s eye off the ball; Health!

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28

truthseeker

Urgent enquiry,bla de blah de blah….who are you trying to kid Anne Pryke,,such a transparent plot to redirect the spotlight off your lamentable ability to do the job which is let’s face it way over your head….

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30

PJG

Ken #3 Matt #8 and 25.
It would be very educational for you to visit the shelter.
Because there among the staff who so selflessly volunteer their time free of charge,careing for local and emigrant alike, you will hear all sorts of accents.
Much as I tend to agree with many of the posts, “let them die on the streets” especially the ones who have been refused entry to the shelter due to violence etc. I have to take my hat off to these dedicated individuals who are trying to actually stop this happening.

Tobias #24
Are you sure about this great news
was, Bin Laden (past tense)

Hospital Nurse #18
In these days of economising I hope in the future the correct amount of sandwiches will be made. We need to reduce waste to give such as yourself a wage more considerate to the job you do.

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32

May

24.Tobias

Yes of course Pol Pot, Hitler, Saddam, Bin Laden were also members of someone’s family. But I am unaware of any of the homeless of Jersey having committed genocide or mass murder but I am not to proud to admit my mistakes please feel free to correct me.

I’m equally sure that our views regarding the treatment of offenders is radically different. I’ve always found the model of retributive justice to be distasteful and a rather simplistic way of looking at things.

I think that it would be better to ensure things like that don’t happen for example safe night bus’s and adequate social services to spot potential teenage rapists before they become them. I think it is a waste of a life for one so young to be incarcerated for so long.

A combination of prevention and rehabilitation is much better than the idea of locking them up and throw away the key.

I’m terrible sorry to offend you by being such a ‘bleeding heart’ as you put it. I would describe it as compassion and empathy.

Do you honestly think that if you took away whatever pittance they get they will go straight out and get a job (not very likely at the moment no matter who you are) wait a week to get paid and succeed in keeping the job whilst still abusing alcohol? This is of course ignoring the fact that the very reason they may have become homeless in the first place may have been down to losing their job.

Perhaps an understanding of the causes behind the homelessness and substance abuse might be an idea in order to do something about it?

And please no more ‘bleeding heart liberal’ comments do try to use reason and logic in your argument rather than tired unoriginal sentiments directed at those who disagree with you.

I am quiet willing to have my views swayed to your that they should be left on the streets with out food or money or thrown into jail should I hear a convincing argument. It’s one of the benefits of being open minded.

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34

Adrian

When are we going to get an inquiry into the Verita reports findings? Are people going to be held to account for any failures? Or is too long ago to take action? What does the Minister of Health think on these issues?

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36

Adrian

jj you are probably right, however it would be nice if you weren’t for once.

If nothing happens then I will think the states have something to hide. What about you?

A lot of people are watching with interest on this one, and I would say from my experience that they want action, not inaction. So come on health minister what are you going to do?

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38

john

I think we need an inquiry into whether the States are using too many inquiries!

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40

Tobias

May (32)
Nice post. I would like to take the opportunity to respond, as you’ve addressed it to me personally.
Firstly, my analogy re the hobos and the likes of Bin Laden etc was not to imply that the bench-dwellers are mass-murderers, it was merely to point out that statements such as your “they’re all someone’s son,brother etc” is an irrelevant statement. I think you’ll find that, until cloning is perfected, everyone on the planet is someone’s son or daughter – so using this to partially excuse someone’s bad behaviour could be used equally for any single living or dead homo sapien in the history of the world. Like I pointed out, it’s an argument often used by bleeding-heart liberals in an attempt to make us feel sorry for those that would otherwise not deserve our pity.
As you’ve pointed out, we have very differing views on treatment of offenders – personally I’d bring back corporal punishment as I truly believe that the good that would come from this would massively outweigh the negative implications. As an example, a young troublemaker that I had the misfortune to share a class with 20-odd years ago at school was yesterday on the front page of the JEP for – allegedly – severely beating a 61-year-old. Perhaps a ‘short-sharp-shock’ when he was in his early teens would have taught him the error of the path he was starting down. Or perhaps not, maybe it would have made him worse – it’s just my opinion, but I think it would have ‘fixed’ him before he became unfixable. We’ll have to agree to disagree on that point.
Next, you comment that “do you think that if you took away whatever pittance they get, they’ll go straight out and get a job…?” – hmmm well I’ve thought about that one and have to say that yes, I think they would, as they’d have very little choice. I was brought up to believe that one had to work to get paid, welfare is supposed to tide you over temporarily during a bad patch. If they are incapable of finding work due to their excessive drinking then at the very least they should be made to do manual work for the Parish such as sweeping roads, picing up litter, re-painting fences etc. There was such a work-scheme some years ago, where the long-term unemployed were put to use by the States in return for their money – this would get the workshy moving again, the scroungers would be off the streets during the day at least, and the actual honest people that were trying to find work would not have a problem with doing this, indeed would most likely be happy to feel that they had earned their money again as no decent person wants to be asking for hand-outs.
I am aware that my comments regarding the homeless have been quite harsh, however I do think that they are justified and I make no apology for this. I have no issues with some of the ‘old boys’ that are living rough on the streets, the ones that keep themselves to themselves and bother nobody. I’m sure we’ve all seen the old bearded chap walking along with his walking stick and permanent can of beer, he’s not bothering anybody and no-one would begrudge him a roof over his head. There are others too, that just want to be left alone to eke out their existence without getting in anyones’ way. These are the sort of people that the shelter is there for.
However, in the last few years in particular, a newer group has emerged, ones that either cannot get into the shelter as they are too drunk or violent, or that chooses to sleep outside in order to be able to utilise the shelter rent to buy alcohol and drugs. I have many times seen them insult decent folk, including myself and my wife. A few weeks back one of them was calling out racist bile to a Polish man – yet judging by his accent he was not from here himself, so as to how he thought that he had the right to come over here as a foreigner and tell other foreigners to “go home” is beyond me. At least the Pole was well-dressed and obviously working, contributing to the island – unlike the drunken filth that mistakenly thought he was cut from a better cloth and had more right to be here.
It seems to me that some of the ‘compassionate and empathic’ people posting here have perhaps seen the REAL homeless people in places like London, or even India, and equated them as the same as our Jersey homeless. This I can understand, however it is not correct. We are a wealthy island, and we can afford to provide care for those that really need it – nobody is forced to sleep rough, as mentioned earlier they either choose to, or are denied access because of their behaviour. This is not speculation, this is fact, from someone who did indeed volunteer for work at the shelter back in 2002. My bias against these people has come from first-hand experience.
I admit that my philosophy of forcing them to work etc may not be the correct road to follow, it’s just my opinion. However, nobody could honestly deny that what we are doing at the moment with them is incorrect – giving them handouts with which to purchase more alcohol is helping nobody and they should not be allowed to consume vast quantities of liquor in such close proximity to a childrens playground.
Finally (sorry for the waffle) it has been stated in an earlier post that they are not responsible for their own actions, as the drink controls them – their only decision is whether to take the first drink. For this I have no sympathy, as anyone who knows that they are likely to have problems once they are inebriated should decide to NOT take the first drink to start with, when it is still a concious decision.

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42

PJG

Born Warrior #37
How about selling the overproduction in the hospital cafe.
One can only presume they are fit for consumption if a nurse is distributing them to humans ?
Then factor that lateral thinking, reduction of waste into your “sandwich-making calculation”. see what happens to the bottom line
OR
how about a compromise, why not sell them at a reduced rate to anybody in the park ?
The park people have pocket money, then its their choice full price Carlsberg special or half price sandwiches.

To use words such as Freakonomy when considering any, even minute reductions in cost can only come from someone who has had the luxury of never having to justify costs to a shareholder.

OR why not just let the lady that comes round anyway to ask what choice of dinner you want, collect the sandwich data ?
As you say “The thrifty management of human/financial resources is careful economy”

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44

Born Warrior

PJG 42.

I do not know how patients choose meals from menus, but I should imagine it’s by means of a card showing the patient’s name and a series of check boxes (which the patient must tick). If this is the case, it would be quite simple to add another check box for the sandwich request…simple, but with a cost.
You see, what might seem like ‘just another check box’ to some, is actually a substantial increase in the workload of the operator who processes the information (from 2 data items to 3). For example, if it takes 2 minutes to process 2 items, then it will take 3 minutes to process 3. This 1-minute increase must be multiplied by the number of patients, let’s say 200, which results in 3hrs 20mins of operator time per day at the fully-loaded rate.

Selling the surplus sandwiches in the Cafeteria is far more complicated than it appears. It would involve several members of staff from different departments and would certainly create a large amount of costly book work (with a high risk of discrepancies). This is due to the fact that all incomings and outgoings must go through accounts. Therefore, the cost of the surplus sandwiches (recorded as an expense in the Hospital Food Account) would have to be calculated and deducted from the initial sum before being transferred to the Cafeteria Accounts. At minimum, we are looking at 3 hours of combined-operator time per day at the fully-loaded rate (combined-operator time* includes collection of surplus sandwiches from the various wards, counting of the same, transport from the collection point to the Cafeteria and the respective data-transfer to the Accounts dept. for processing). Any profits made from this time-consuming operation would also be taxable.

Your ‘Carlsberg-intake-reduction’ idea (although “All heart”) is the least cost-efficient of all. In fact the staff member who takes the surplus sandwiches to the ‘Poor in Park’ (in order to avoid waste disposal costs) would instead have to spend time counting and sorting the surplus sandwiches, taking money, giving change and cashing up (this operation would also require the expense and setting up some kind of stall to facilitate operations). Even in this case, the cost of the surplus sandwiches (recorded as an expense in the Hospital Food Account) would have to be calculated and deducted from the initial sum before being transferred to an account specially created for the purpose of selling surplus foodstuffs outside the hospital. Again, we are looking at at least 3 hours of combined-operator time* (as above) per day at the fully-loaded rate.

What you fail to see, is that in careful economics every minute must be counted and accounted for…because “Minutes are Money!”

P.S. You are right, I have never been obliged to justify costs to shareholders, but I’ve written more Cost-efficiency reports than I care to remember.

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46

Recovering Drunk

Tobias 40 – good post, I don’t agree with all of it being a recovering alcoholic myslef it is more complex than you suggest, beleive it or not some of these people don’t know they are alcoholics and certainly don’t understand the despicable nature of the disease however I’m digressing.

I do agree with your point on capital punishemnt, I remember what a deterrant corporal punishment was at school, I never got caned because I knew it would hurt, this stopped me crossing the line, had there been no cane I would have spent much of my time misbehaving. The threat of being whipped or hung can only be a greater deterrant, I imagine if our population were democratically asked to vote on the matter the outcome would be that it were reintroduced ( can you imagine anything so absurd as the people of Jersey having any say in how the island is run )

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48

Mark

Jersey BOB (41) You seem to imply that Democracy does work in Trinity. If Anne Pryke is tosh, it is because the best that Trinity can offer is tosh.

Anne Pryke faced with the nightmare of a failing Health Department seeks a solution in the homeless. A diversionary tactic perfected by banana republics. Time for her to go?

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50

C Le Verdic

Time for one or two to “get out more”?

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52

Born Warrior

C Le Verdic 49.

I’ll be on a plane to Venice in a couple of hours…where are you going this weekend?

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54

Pip Clement

‘I’ll be on a plane to Venice in a couple of hours. Where are you going this weekend?’

Don’t mistake modern travel with broadening the mind.
I know plenty of people who have been all over the world.
They stay in a hotel or a sealed resort, all the staff that they meet speak English, they eat international crusine that is available everywhere including Jersey, do not meet or even see the locals.

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